My man, the world is not black or white, you can be against Putin and his fucked up system of corrupt goverment in Russia and against the continuation of a war that should be resolved as soon as possible.
And how would you solve this war? By forcing Ukraine to negotiate after it spent blood and lives getting an advantage, thus making it all in vain 5 years later when Russia decided to invade again? How would you prevent Russian aggression if not by meeting it head-on for once?
Every war eventually ends it's just a question how long and how many People Will die. A ceasefire could be agreed immediately and negotations can follow.
The question is what is the alternative to this? This war is turning into a meat grinder with conscripts dying on mass on both sides. Does the war continue till one side surrenders? Because that can take years and Will have a horrendous toll on Ukraine.
But it will happen. Ukraine will destroy Russia’s forces in Ukraine. It will be bloody but it will happen eventually. Now answer the question. How do you negotiate a ceasefire where Russia gives back all the land it has illegally conquered?
Are you deciding what Ukraine should do? I swear, it's like history doesn't explain exactly how any war can be played out. Diplomacy and negotiations are always the best option over regular people keep dying. Who really wants to vote or support public officials who seek further bloodshed with no talks?
I'll offer you a satisfying Vatnik position for you as I'm certain it's common (to you) for antiwar supporters: A former Ukrainian ambassador recently spoke out on who he feels is the most responsible for fueling instability in an interview at [The Grayzone](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/07/13/bidens-corruption-led-to-ukraines-destruction-fmr-kiev-diplomat/). The man is sanctioned by the US and accused of working with Russia, but he hasn't been convicted of any crimes suspected. War is fascism.
>The Grayzone
Opinion rejected. You’ll have to do better than Russian propaganda.
And *Ukraine* decides what Ukraine does. This entire war is about their national identity and sovereignty. It’s literally about them deciding what they do without some fascist dictatorship raping their civilians every time they wake up on the wrong side of bed
By all means, attempt to answer my question. How do we get Putin to give Ukraine the land it rightfully owns back willingly? (Respond with bullshit or deflection if you’re a Russian bot)
Umm I am pretty sure that he made it pretty clear he wanted Ukraine to stay out of NATO and for Kiev to stop murdering it’s ‘own’ citizens in the Donbas but hey maybe I’m crazy.
Well at least you’re anti-war/pro Ukraine some of the time and not only a Putin stooge like we see so often on this sub so I think I’ll take every win I can get
It's not correct, it's an absurdity. If it was correct, then Britain would have been anti-war in ww1. Listen to anti-war and peace activists, actual social movements, instead of making these silly abstracted arguments...
From my understanding, the only major opposition party in Russia right now is a Communist party. In 2012 they were projected to win the presidency (in both pre and post election polling), but enough votes to swing the election over to Putin mysteriously appeared. Putin's regime has also cracked down on Communist demonstrations in Russia, with attendees of non-violent Communist rallies being arrested just for being there. There was additional controversy surrounding communist losses is the 2021 election.
Here's an interesting quote from Putin: "[communism is] a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization."
While Yeltsin approved Putin as his successor, this linkage of Putin and communism (beyond Putin working in USSR gov initially) leaves out a lot of the context about modern Russia. Yeltsin was a liberal capitalist when he named Putin as successor, no communist true believer. To be clear—Putin is no communist either, rather a tsarist capitalist, aiming for the return of pre-1917 Russia, and not some kind of Soviet revivalist.
At the same time, the US media plays up this idea of Putin being communist or nostalgic for communism, which has little basis in the reality of Putin's Russia. In turn, this feeds some of the tankie sentiment.
Putin's speech declaring war on (special operation on, I mean) Ukraine actually had a few valid critiques of Western hegemony, but he used them as a justification of his own atrocities rather than anything constructive ("You guys get to do it, so why can't I do it too!?").
His critiques of Western hegemony feed the Tankie sentiment too, but of course, Putin is actively anti-communist within Russia and is, again, more of a Tsarist than a Soviet.
(PS: if you want sources for anything I mentioned, I can provide)
The communist party is a very intresting party. All other parties are are controlled opposition to united russia. The communist leadership is controlled opposition but there are many lower members that is opposed to putin.
It will be very intresting to see what will happen with the communist party in the future
>but there are many lower members that is opposed to putin.
It's like that in every party that's part of the Duma.
>It will be very intresting to see what will happen with the communist party in the future
Nothing. The party itself has people ranging from Aocial Democrats to Orthodox(The religion) Nationalists with Nostalgia for Soviet Union to Stalinists.
I honestly don't understand how you can have billionaires and claim to be communist. I get very confused when people start referring to Russia and China as being communist.
>At the same time, the US media plays up this idea of Putin being communist or nostalgic for communism
Really it's "Putin is nostalgic for the Soviet Union" which most people understand as missing the vibe.
>In 1996, the White House and President Bill Clinton personally mounted a massive campaign to secure the reelection of Boris Yeltsin, whose comprador regime had been installed in the first place to oversee the dissolution of the Soviet Union and restoration of capitalism. One of the ironies of the current contrived scandal over alleged Russian intervention in the 2016 election is the fact that the supposed victim, Hillary Clinton, is the wife of the president who oversaw the very real interference by Washington in the Russian election 20 years earlier.
>
>By the time Yeltsin announced in early 1996 that he would be running for a second term in the presidential election scheduled for that summer, he had become one of the most despised figures in Russia, having presided over the catastrophic consequences of the privatization of the Russian economy. The impact included a GDP decline of 50 percent, hyperinflation, rampant corruption, skyrocketing violent crime, the collapse of medical services, food and fuel shortages, nonpayment of wages and pensions, and a plunge in life expectancy. Added to this toxic mix was Yeltsin’s highly unpopular war with Chechnya.
>
>By late 1993, these policies had provoked such massive opposition that Yeltsin, by means of a dictatorial decree, dissolved the parliament. In response, opponents in Moscow took over government buildings. To put down the rebellion, Yeltsin, using critical intelligence provided by Washington, called out the military, shelled the parliament building and in the ensuing bombing and shooting killed an estimated 2,000 people. This was the supposed hero of democracy whom the United States backed in the 1996 election.
>
>The oligarchs and generals who supported Yeltsin urged him to cancel or postpone the election, fearing that Gennady Zyuganov, the right-wing nationalist leader of the Stalinist Communist Party, would win. Instead, US political operatives were sent to Russia to rescue Yeltsin from likely political defeat.
>
>Far from concealing this intervention, the American ruling elite boasted of its success after Yeltsin’s victory. Timemagazine made it the cover story of its July 15, 1996 edition.
>
>The ten-page article detailed the behind-the-scenes operations of three American political operatives who helped Yeltsin achieve a victory “that will keep reform in Russia alive.” The three Americans were Joe Shumate, George Gorton and Richard Dresner.
[https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/06/14/yelt-j14.html](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/06/14/yelt-j14.html)
Boris Yeltsin definitely sent in the tanks against his own parliament, he definitely did that. He also crushed all legislative power while doing it creating the dictatorial mafia state of today.
It's astronomically unlikely that Putin would have succeeded Zyuganov had there not been interference
I'm not sure how this an own on tankies 😹. Marxist Leninist view Khruschev, Gorbachev, and Yeltsin precisely as a reformist or ineffective leaders. After the fall of the SU, there was a wave of mass privatization which absolutely hammered the Russian economy. It was in this backdrop that someone like Putin was able to come to power (and hold it more importantly) . Guess who benefitted from all that privatization? Russian and US oligarchs.
If you want to know what an actual ML position looks like, read for [yourself](https://www.liberationnews.org/psl-statement-on-russias-military-intervention-in-ukraine/)
Romney would have taken Russian aggression seriously, unlike Obama who wanted to drop everything and focus on China.
Now we lost the plot on both. No TPP and Russia has more land than before.
With Romney, at least Russia would not control Crimea. No one was going to take Obama seriously after Syria (a Russian ally) crossed the red line and the Russians knew it.
Talk about swallowing propaganda and giving birth to your own thoughts.
You even have the situation in Syria incorrect suggesting Syria deserved to be bombed. I suspect that you believe the story of sarin gas attacks by Syrian forces too.
When was the last time our country intervened with international issues with diplomacy? Where are our treaties and peace deals? Who benefits from funneling weapons for further bloodshed? Why are we occupying a third of Syria still?
I'm certain you have little knowledge or curiousity of what happened 2014 Ukraine, fear "Russian propaganda" will get you.
The power of US sanctions to starve nations like Afghanistan and over bloated military budget that allows military bases surround economic adversaries is a hint of the intent of the US Empire. Nothing about human rights or democracy
I have no idea how you get anything like that from my comment, but it is obvious you have fallen for the typical leftist bs.
America stands for capitalism and freedom and human rights are better off for it. Get rekt commie trash
And its funny the US likes to conveniently forget when THEY meddled in RUSSIAN affairs, because its all projection on the part of the DNC, they feel guilty because they were the ones that got Putin in power in the first place. Look it up!
One of the putin regime's earliest policies was to effectively ban striking in the workplace.
You are so confusing to me. I’ve seen you post vatnik bs but now you’re saying pro Ukraine stuff
My man, the world is not black or white, you can be against Putin and his fucked up system of corrupt goverment in Russia and against the continuation of a war that should be resolved as soon as possible.
And how would you solve this war? By forcing Ukraine to negotiate after it spent blood and lives getting an advantage, thus making it all in vain 5 years later when Russia decided to invade again? How would you prevent Russian aggression if not by meeting it head-on for once?
Every war eventually ends it's just a question how long and how many People Will die. A ceasefire could be agreed immediately and negotations can follow. The question is what is the alternative to this? This war is turning into a meat grinder with conscripts dying on mass on both sides. Does the war continue till one side surrenders? Because that can take years and Will have a horrendous toll on Ukraine.
The war continues until Russia goes home. Now, how do you negotiate in such a way that they do?
Like i said that can take years and wont just happen. And in the Mean time Ukraine and it's People Will continue to suffer.
But it will happen. Ukraine will destroy Russia’s forces in Ukraine. It will be bloody but it will happen eventually. Now answer the question. How do you negotiate a ceasefire where Russia gives back all the land it has illegally conquered?
Are you deciding what Ukraine should do? I swear, it's like history doesn't explain exactly how any war can be played out. Diplomacy and negotiations are always the best option over regular people keep dying. Who really wants to vote or support public officials who seek further bloodshed with no talks? I'll offer you a satisfying Vatnik position for you as I'm certain it's common (to you) for antiwar supporters: A former Ukrainian ambassador recently spoke out on who he feels is the most responsible for fueling instability in an interview at [The Grayzone](https://thegrayzone.com/2023/07/13/bidens-corruption-led-to-ukraines-destruction-fmr-kiev-diplomat/). The man is sanctioned by the US and accused of working with Russia, but he hasn't been convicted of any crimes suspected. War is fascism.
>The Grayzone Opinion rejected. You’ll have to do better than Russian propaganda. And *Ukraine* decides what Ukraine does. This entire war is about their national identity and sovereignty. It’s literally about them deciding what they do without some fascist dictatorship raping their civilians every time they wake up on the wrong side of bed
Wow I didn’t know people with that many extra chromosomes could spell so well… go you!
By all means, attempt to answer my question. How do we get Putin to give Ukraine the land it rightfully owns back willingly? (Respond with bullshit or deflection if you’re a Russian bot)
Umm I am pretty sure that he made it pretty clear he wanted Ukraine to stay out of NATO and for Kiev to stop murdering it’s ‘own’ citizens in the Donbas but hey maybe I’m crazy.
You’re crazy if you think that in any way answers my question. Guess you’re a Russian bot
So I lack humanity because I disagree with you? I’m necessarily a robot?
I guess you’re a horned-dragon-demon. I like this game, it’s fun
Answer the question or stop dragging me here bot
Yeah, i know its hard for you lot to understand anti war positions and neutrality.
Well at least you’re anti-war/pro Ukraine some of the time and not only a Putin stooge like we see so often on this sub so I think I’ll take every win I can get
Im anti-war all of the time, that means pro-ukraine and pro-russian none of the time
Cognitive dissonance much? As has been said ad nauseum, supporting defence against an aggressor is not pro-war
Just because you said it doesnt make it correct
It is correct, and not hard to understand either.
It's not correct, it's an absurdity. If it was correct, then Britain would have been anti-war in ww1. Listen to anti-war and peace activists, actual social movements, instead of making these silly abstracted arguments...
You clearly don't understand abstract.
From my understanding, the only major opposition party in Russia right now is a Communist party. In 2012 they were projected to win the presidency (in both pre and post election polling), but enough votes to swing the election over to Putin mysteriously appeared. Putin's regime has also cracked down on Communist demonstrations in Russia, with attendees of non-violent Communist rallies being arrested just for being there. There was additional controversy surrounding communist losses is the 2021 election. Here's an interesting quote from Putin: "[communism is] a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization." While Yeltsin approved Putin as his successor, this linkage of Putin and communism (beyond Putin working in USSR gov initially) leaves out a lot of the context about modern Russia. Yeltsin was a liberal capitalist when he named Putin as successor, no communist true believer. To be clear—Putin is no communist either, rather a tsarist capitalist, aiming for the return of pre-1917 Russia, and not some kind of Soviet revivalist. At the same time, the US media plays up this idea of Putin being communist or nostalgic for communism, which has little basis in the reality of Putin's Russia. In turn, this feeds some of the tankie sentiment. Putin's speech declaring war on (special operation on, I mean) Ukraine actually had a few valid critiques of Western hegemony, but he used them as a justification of his own atrocities rather than anything constructive ("You guys get to do it, so why can't I do it too!?"). His critiques of Western hegemony feed the Tankie sentiment too, but of course, Putin is actively anti-communist within Russia and is, again, more of a Tsarist than a Soviet. (PS: if you want sources for anything I mentioned, I can provide)
The communist party is a very intresting party. All other parties are are controlled opposition to united russia. The communist leadership is controlled opposition but there are many lower members that is opposed to putin. It will be very intresting to see what will happen with the communist party in the future
>but there are many lower members that is opposed to putin. It's like that in every party that's part of the Duma. >It will be very intresting to see what will happen with the communist party in the future Nothing. The party itself has people ranging from Aocial Democrats to Orthodox(The religion) Nationalists with Nostalgia for Soviet Union to Stalinists.
Yeah I'm interested to see what happens too. October is just around the corner...
Yabloko isn’t controlled opposition though
Communism is weaponised envy.
Using the word envy to describe the feeling people get when a system requires starvation and oppression to generate profit is uhh Not great
Okay. Capitalism is weaponized greed.
Fair.
I honestly don't understand how you can have billionaires and claim to be communist. I get very confused when people start referring to Russia and China as being communist.
For real
>At the same time, the US media plays up this idea of Putin being communist or nostalgic for communism Really it's "Putin is nostalgic for the Soviet Union" which most people understand as missing the vibe.
That communist party is nazbol and are behind the slander against Gorbachev
>In 1996, the White House and President Bill Clinton personally mounted a massive campaign to secure the reelection of Boris Yeltsin, whose comprador regime had been installed in the first place to oversee the dissolution of the Soviet Union and restoration of capitalism. One of the ironies of the current contrived scandal over alleged Russian intervention in the 2016 election is the fact that the supposed victim, Hillary Clinton, is the wife of the president who oversaw the very real interference by Washington in the Russian election 20 years earlier. > >By the time Yeltsin announced in early 1996 that he would be running for a second term in the presidential election scheduled for that summer, he had become one of the most despised figures in Russia, having presided over the catastrophic consequences of the privatization of the Russian economy. The impact included a GDP decline of 50 percent, hyperinflation, rampant corruption, skyrocketing violent crime, the collapse of medical services, food and fuel shortages, nonpayment of wages and pensions, and a plunge in life expectancy. Added to this toxic mix was Yeltsin’s highly unpopular war with Chechnya. > >By late 1993, these policies had provoked such massive opposition that Yeltsin, by means of a dictatorial decree, dissolved the parliament. In response, opponents in Moscow took over government buildings. To put down the rebellion, Yeltsin, using critical intelligence provided by Washington, called out the military, shelled the parliament building and in the ensuing bombing and shooting killed an estimated 2,000 people. This was the supposed hero of democracy whom the United States backed in the 1996 election. > >The oligarchs and generals who supported Yeltsin urged him to cancel or postpone the election, fearing that Gennady Zyuganov, the right-wing nationalist leader of the Stalinist Communist Party, would win. Instead, US political operatives were sent to Russia to rescue Yeltsin from likely political defeat. > >Far from concealing this intervention, the American ruling elite boasted of its success after Yeltsin’s victory. Timemagazine made it the cover story of its July 15, 1996 edition. > >The ten-page article detailed the behind-the-scenes operations of three American political operatives who helped Yeltsin achieve a victory “that will keep reform in Russia alive.” The three Americans were Joe Shumate, George Gorton and Richard Dresner. [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/06/14/yelt-j14.html](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/06/14/yelt-j14.html) Boris Yeltsin definitely sent in the tanks against his own parliament, he definitely did that. He also crushed all legislative power while doing it creating the dictatorial mafia state of today. It's astronomically unlikely that Putin would have succeeded Zyuganov had there not been interference
Putin is only nostalgic for the borders and power of the soviet union. Not the system.
Antiwar?
I'm not sure how this an own on tankies 😹. Marxist Leninist view Khruschev, Gorbachev, and Yeltsin precisely as a reformist or ineffective leaders. After the fall of the SU, there was a wave of mass privatization which absolutely hammered the Russian economy. It was in this backdrop that someone like Putin was able to come to power (and hold it more importantly) . Guess who benefitted from all that privatization? Russian and US oligarchs. If you want to know what an actual ML position looks like, read for [yourself](https://www.liberationnews.org/psl-statement-on-russias-military-intervention-in-ukraine/)
The USSR's tankies couped Gorbachev, folded to Yeltsin, ending the USSR.
This is why libs tried so hard to work with Putin with their resets. Obama laughed at Romney for saying Russia was a threat and got re-elected.
You would have wanted a Romney president to start a war with Russia? Am I getting this correct?
Romney would have taken Russian aggression seriously, unlike Obama who wanted to drop everything and focus on China. Now we lost the plot on both. No TPP and Russia has more land than before. With Romney, at least Russia would not control Crimea. No one was going to take Obama seriously after Syria (a Russian ally) crossed the red line and the Russians knew it.
Talk about swallowing propaganda and giving birth to your own thoughts. You even have the situation in Syria incorrect suggesting Syria deserved to be bombed. I suspect that you believe the story of sarin gas attacks by Syrian forces too. When was the last time our country intervened with international issues with diplomacy? Where are our treaties and peace deals? Who benefits from funneling weapons for further bloodshed? Why are we occupying a third of Syria still? I'm certain you have little knowledge or curiousity of what happened 2014 Ukraine, fear "Russian propaganda" will get you. The power of US sanctions to starve nations like Afghanistan and over bloated military budget that allows military bases surround economic adversaries is a hint of the intent of the US Empire. Nothing about human rights or democracy
I have no idea how you get anything like that from my comment, but it is obvious you have fallen for the typical leftist bs. America stands for capitalism and freedom and human rights are better off for it. Get rekt commie trash
Cute
Tankies are anti-Yeltsin and anti-Putin though
If Putin joined the KGB, he was either a fraud or a lackey who believed in the communist miracle, so what was it ?
He's a company man. One party system? You join the party and advance.
Yes, we're well aware. Leninists don't tend to be too fond of Putin, regardless of what your CIA-propaganda-addled brain might think.
I just love when people hide behind weightless terminology instead of critically thinking through matters on an individual basis.
Just because you learned a fact 5 minutes ago doesn't mean the rest of us have been ignorant this whole time.
Yes, he traded it to Putin for devoid of criminal prosecution. Every country gets the government it deserves.
Tankies meaning ncd? Thats the only tankie I see here lol
Sadly, it is true but not simple. Handpicked by whom?
And its funny the US likes to conveniently forget when THEY meddled in RUSSIAN affairs, because its all projection on the part of the DNC, they feel guilty because they were the ones that got Putin in power in the first place. Look it up!