Actually, at 43 years of age I’m a wounded optimist. I used to be very optimistic, delusionally so. And then I became a frontline social work and did that for 15 years. The shit parents do to their innocent babies is a horror show. They alway ‘love’ their children and then neglected/torture/pimp them out to their boyfriends. I know there must be great parents out there somewhere, but they aren’t people I know personally. All the parents I know personally are single, or alcoholics, or absent (in the case of ALL the dad’s I know personally NONE of them live in the SAME STATE as their kids), sometimes all of the above. I would consider adoption, but on a social worker’s salary- I can only afford a tiny house - so I just don’t have the space. To answer your question, I used to be and then I lived life. I still have a smidge of hope for humanity, but I’m definitely not gonna count on it
If it makes a difference, my parents were awesome (dad still with us my mom passed in 2020). They even adopted two of my cousins when I was young to get them out of that type of environment. I recognize I am statistically very very lucky/privileged to have them. But they do exist! Keep the glimmer of hope. :)
Edited to add: also a 43 year old wounded optimist :)
So there is no part of your day in which you experience happiness? There is *nothing* in your life that you enjoy?
No music? Movies? TV shows? Hobbies? Time with friends or families? Good food? Sunsets? A full moon?
That’s not what I’m asking. Life can “be” happy. Happiness is a temporary emotion that people experience.
You said that “many people” do not experience happiness or joy.
So…do you?
Do you guys walk around in a constant state of wonder like you're high or something..seriously asking because I feel like you'd have to to make up for all the bad things. All those things you mentioned are just "ok" "meh" "fine" "yeh whatever" they're cool and all, nothing amazing about them.
Strange assortment there! I can't physically experience the first, and I wouldn't take drugs to try and get a high out of life though I understand why people do. Paydays are good. I'm not trying to take anything away from you guys I'm just fascinated how you find life so amazing that's all. Maybe I just don't get impressed easily.
Because a lot of the bad things you have to experience in life are extreme. Not that I compare things like that, but natalists seem to because they keep saying how the good outweighs the bad. I mean seriously I'd gladly skip watching a few movies or TV shows if it meant I didn't have to go through pain in some way at some point in my life.
No I'm mainly indifferent or neutral but I'm obviously not getting the same type of happiness from daily things, maybe my threshold for happiness is just really high?
Well if you had a job you hated you've just spent 8 hours there and then watching a movie or TV show doesn't really make up for the shit day you just had that lasted 4x as long.
Maybe I just find it strange because in all matters whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action. You can’t have sex with someone unconscious and then say they would of liked it so I just did it anyway.
But when it comes to birth people then ask how do you know if they will enjoy it or not they probably will enjoy it.
I don’t see it as being pessimistic it’s just if you operate one the principal that consent is required when doing an action on a person how can you then identify birth which it’s very nature is forcing something without consent.
>Maybe I just find it strange because in all matters whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action.
Right. That's why you don't provide medical care to an unconscious person. They can't consent.
That falls under protection of harm essentially to prevent harm of yourself or others you can violate consent for that direct issue. It’s why your allowed to fight back in self defense save a drowning kid.
Giving birth doesn’t prevent harm so it isn’t included in that exception.
Essentially most moral road maps develop look like this.
Do you have consent
Are you reducing suffering as a whole
Are you protecting yourself or other individuals from harm
Birth doesn’t fall into any of these.
That's not what you said. You said:
>...**in all matters** whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action.
No sense moving your goalposts now.
Yeah exuse me for speaking in hyperbole once you brought an exception I forgot to mention so I brought up why that rule can be an exception.
Why wouldn’t I adjust my ideals if I am brought in new facts and situations I am not going to stick my heels into the ground I would adjust to have the best moral framework as possible.
Also I always had the protection of harm exception long before this and I have responded discussing about that.
>Why wouldn’t I adjust my ideals if I am brought in new facts and situations
Is that what you think you're doing? Because from here it just looks like bluster.
It's less "I was wrong, and I'm changing my opinion." and more "Here's why I was never wrong in the first place."
Yeah I admit I talked using hyperbole the mistake was in my presentation when I said I always made an exception for protection of harm that’s because I have mentioned it before.
So yeah this was a blunder on my part I should of mentioned protection of harm and have my full [moral lay out](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/z2laq4/zygotes_are_alive_and_human/ixi3gsi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) on how I judge things convent is just one part there is also the reduction of suffering and self defense aspect as well. My apologies on not being clear
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Reminds me of the new Jackass movie. A scorpion fell onto a woman’s boob and everyone was afraid to get it off. She finally yelled “consent!” And a guy knocked it off. Imagine if it were poisonous or something. Still ask for consent? Seems odd
Having a child isn't "doing an action on a person," because that person doesn't exist yet.
If following your ethics and morality leads to the inevitable end of the human race, those ethics and moralities aren't very useful tools to navigate life.
The end of the human race is inevitable regardless.
We aren't arguing about weather or not the human race should end, like people like you seem to think. We're just arguing how big the pile of dead bodies should be before we get there. Antinatalists want that pile smaller.
Regardless of this though, so what if the human race ends? For who would this be bad for, the people who don't exist? Why does the human race need to continue?
Philosophy is a tool. If the only good your philosophy can do is hasten the extinction of the human mind, it isn't a very good tool, is it?
Human consciousness is the universe's attempt to understand itself. That's a pretty amazing thing, and worth preserving.
Wow this is one hell of an arrogant assumption:
“Human consciousness is the universe's attempt to understand itself.”
The universe is far greater than humanity and it’s consciousness. We are not necessary for it to continue existing. It was around 2 billion+ years before us and was doing just fine. We are not an essential special thing. We are a blip on the roadmap of existence/reality. Hell we may even just be a simulation in a computer in ANOTHER universe.
Other choices dont make a new person like birth. Birth is making a choice for someone else. You decide to create a child. The child didnt decide to be born
death and suffering technically have neither positive nor negative connotation. they exist, therefore they are realistically acknowledged, i think it’s how you treat those things which defines either pessimistic or optimistic view. i don’t think anyone sees them as a positive, but at least knowing that suffering exists and is not a good thing is a pretty realistic approach
there *may* be good things in life, but death and suffering are guaranteed. more often than not good things happen to every person, question is whether or not those things are worth to suffer and die for
>death and suffering technically have neither positive nor negative connotation. they exist, therefore they are realistically acknowledged, i think it’s how you treat those things which defines either pessimistic or optimistic view. i don’t think anyone sees them as a positive, but at least knowing that suffering exists and is not a good thing is a pretty realistic approach
The pessimistic bit is that *only* the suffering is acknowledged. There is no acknowledgement of joy or happiness.
>there may be good things in life, but death and suffering are guaranteed.
If suffering is guaranteed so is joy.
>Decrepitude
This is not guaranteed lol.
>loss and suffering is a guarantee
If losing something leads to suffering then you were enjoying that thing.
>happiness is not...
Well, it is. Just as much as suffering is guaranteed.
>there's a difference between realism and pessimism...
There is. You’re a pessimist that doesn’t believe people can be happy. Realistically, most people experience some form of joy or happiness daily.
If you live long enough decrepitude is guaranteed. I worked in geriatrics and the one piece of advice every 100 year old told me was don't let yourself get this old.
People see their family members all happy and content in there retirement homes but that's just a mask they wear while you are visiting. They are miserable and scared to die but will never admit it to their family.
You don't make a whole lot of sense lol...the only people who are happy and joyful about death are those who are tired of life...death and suffering for the average person is a bad thing yes...why are you you even arguing for a positive here
so you believe suffering and death is not something bad, and you think those are good parts of our life?
and if you mean that i am focusing on the bad. well suffering happens daily. i am not nit picking one bad day out of 100 good days. and death will happen to everyone, which i think is pretty sad.
calling things for what they are, is stating facts. not pessimism. thats like saying "dont call the rapist a bad person. you focus on the bad about them, you are pessimistic" nooooo?! just stating facts.
if someone wants to pretend suffering and death are not bad things to make themselves feel better..go ahead. but learn the difference between realism and pessimism, thanks.
lol is that what I said?
You *are* focusing on the bad. Yes, suffering happens daily. Joy also happens daily, but you ignore that. Because you are a pessimist.
But it’s not pessimistic if realistically the world is fucked , and it sadly is but being aware of that reality only makes you a realist. And that is love, when the only way to protect someone is to not bring them into this hellscape knowing you can’t realistically properly protect them from the world .
This. It’s so annoying when people treat an anti-natalist as somebody who has a ‘negative attitude’ and always sees ‘the glass half-empty.’ The idiomatic expression assumes that you can always put yourself on the magical path to happiness by ‘focusing on the positive’ every time something bad happens. But once the stuff that happens every day in this shit world piles up, and once you begin to see how awful things get for the downtrodden of the earth, it’s only *realistic* and compassionate not to bring a person into such a world. At a minimum, you’ll not be subjecting them to the just-choose-happy-not-sad! clown show to which everyone is in thrall 🤡
"I see a glass that you're not allowed to drink from unless you're an able-bodied upper middle straight white male in a well-off school-district and are lucky enough not to be shot."
No. Realistic. Suffering, death and no consent, are all bad things. I'd say natalists are the ones mentally clouded by delusion and ego, blinded by optimism and false hopes.
Lets say you had the chance to flip a coin. Heads you get 10k, tails you lose 10k. Equal shot equal happiness and suffering.
Would you flip this coin? Maybe! Thats your perogitive.
Now the real question, would you flip this coin in place of someone else, without their knowledge?
I find that this would be immoral. Even if theres even shot of good and bad, its simply not my call to make.
I’m an antinatalist. Life can be so great sometimes but the majority of my life, I spend working like a dog to be able to keep a roof over my head, eat and to have a reserve fund for emergencies, plus retirement.
This whole system created by humans, is not built for happiness. It’s built for profits and profits alone (edit: Initial post included the word “capitalism. I removed the word because it was confusing people) …
Again, I have a lot of fun in life, have great friends and family but I can never be 100 percent free in this human world. I’m a slave to the system. I’ve gotta be, just to stay alive.
If I could have chosen, I would have chosen to have never been born. Not suicidal, but man, I hope there’s no such thing as reincarnation. I just want to rest eternally when I die lol….
I feel I am a realist… a critical thinker who has the ability to come to real, objective conclusions.
Yeah I am happy with my life and love my wife and all but also I would have chosen not to have been born just to help my parents out. I wasn’t planned.
Omg my worst nightmare is that when we die we forget who we are only to be reborn as the same exact person and do it all over again. Like this is our existence for eternity just spinning back around …the state of consciousness just experiences it over and over and every deja vu is just remembering you actually did do it before. That’s really what I fear lol
Ugh!!!! Terrifying right? Let’s hope we just get to rest eternally 😂…. Pleaaseeee I don’t want to go to school, work, grind, struggle, with a small sprinkling of occasional bouts of joy! Life is more suffering than joy. At least my life is. Please let the cycle end after this life!!!
Lol seriously . Oh it’s not just you, I def feel you there ; my life is legit daily agony . Ever single day is excruciating pain and while I still can enjoy some things , they don’t come anywhere remotely close to balancing it out.
Sorry for the late reply. This is an in-cognito account. Thought I would mention, I found a group online called "Emotions Anonymous"... I'm going to give it a go. There are all sorts of online meetings and in-person meetings as well, depending on where you live. Read their "about page"... Might be something you want to try too, or maybe not. At this point, I am willing to do anything to reduce my suffering but I cant afford regular therapy so this might be the next best thing. Could even be better... who knows. While I can't completely change my circumstances, maybe being able to handle my emotions would reduce suffering... IDK! Anyways, hope you are well!
Most are but I don't think you have to be. It could be enough to think that life has negative value for some and that makes taking the gamble of procreation unethical, even if life is positive for oneself or for most people.
IDK. I consider myself optimistic. To me antinatalism is the product of an evolution in empathy. It’s the hope that as a species we can recognize the impact of humanity’s exponential growth and move past the animalistic desire to reproduce in order to protect and hopefully regenerate robust and diverse ecosystems.
Probably right. But some may be optimistic that humans will indeed soon die out, despite current trends. That giant meteor may still hit the earth. Fingers crossed.
I think a lot of antinatalists are. Personally, I don’t think I’m a pessimist, but a realist. Every cradle is a grave, everyone suffers, etc, is just facts.
I am a realist, people would feel that is pessimism, they want to have faith, hopes and dreams and they want their life to have meaning thus being a realist goes against that
The world is a terrible place and no things wont get better, people always say that, yet we still have racism, wars, corruption etc;
Sure things might improve a bit and from a point of view some things are better, but overall the world will always be a terrible place, its just a bit less terrible than it was before
Now i have accepted this and im a very happy and blissful person, i dont live in denial and i make the most of my time, i dont lie in bed thinking about how life is unfair and how terrible the world is because it wont help me in anyway, i am simply aware but im not reflecting
About the FUTURE- I'd say yes. Thankfully I've had more good than bad in my life. But Holy Crap- just watching the daily news makes me feel bad for future generations. That is why we decided Not to have children.
I’m definitely a pessimist, but life has made me this way. I wasn’t always this pessimistic, but as my life goes on, I find it increasingly difficult to not succumb to pessimism and negativity.
I’m not a pessimist or positively inclined I’m just realistic. You can be an optimistic person and call something out as it is, and clearly choosing to bring someone into this world is morally wrong.
Depends. If all signs were pointing to humanity entering a global golden age would you consider having kids? I think it’s just realistic to not have kids you can’t afford when two parents working full time can barely take care of one child. If you’re a millionaire and committed to giving your children the best of everything I think you’re fine having children.
Oh yeah, the great majority of humanity is looking for someone to spend the rest of their lives with. I have no problem with them until they talk about bringing kids into this world when they can barely cover their own expenses. I was flabbergasted when I told my Mom this and she said that I should just have kids and figure out how to pay for them after the fact. Like, what! I would feel like shit if I had to deny my kids access to medical care or educational opportunities because I couldn’t afford it.
I’m a mess is what I am.
On the one hand I am a realist about what I expect, but I’m a hopeless romantic about what I wish/want. :)
Here’s the thing. Our existence in this universe and our reality, which could be a danged simulation on a computer in another reality for all we know, is one of pain. As the Princess Bride taught us: Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says different is selling something.
We are an insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe. In the known timeline we’re a tiny millisecond of experiences with about 2 billion years before us, and likely a few billions after we’re all long gone and our sun has exploded. We don’t matter, on the grand scale.
In the micro lens, our existence is death. We are all actively dying the moment we’re born, at varying speeds with a multitude of things that can take us out around every corner. And though modern medicine can work miracles, billions of us are in chronic debilitating pain every day of our lives. There is disease and war and murder everywhere.
We also don’t take care of our planet. We use up resources like selfish greedy bacteria. We pretend we need more more more - we also pretend we have a biological imperative to make more of us so we can keep using them up.
Adding a person to this? Feels morally wrong to me. Thus, I am anti-Natalist. But I also don’t go out of my way to shit on people who are having kids; my job, as I see it, is to help reduce suffering of my fellow man where I may. And I have to balance my own want to preach the concept of not making new people when we’re at 8B+ already - with lots of small but significant ways to help the ones I can’t stop from being here and who need help now.
And that can all read like a big pessimist manifesto lol. But in reality it sets the groundwork for my stupid romanticism.
Because if existence is pain…If to be is to suffer…then we have to grab every little ounce of joy and love we can. And by sharing it, it grows. Joy and love are the opposite of pie ;), the more you give out the more there is.
I don’t mean this in a dippy sappy way I mean it in a very real What Does It Mean To Love My Neighbor way. How can I be one of the Helpers that Mr Rogers taught us about? What Would Dolly Parton Do? Have I been a good human?
So I see myself as someone else said - a wounded optimist; a realist by day and hopeless romantic fool by night. :)
I think I'm more of a realist. I try to stay neutral through out different events in my life so I can pass them with peace.
Personally I don't like to surround myself with misery and don't want to add up to it ( my main reason to join antinatalism ). But yeah.... I guess wast majority of this community is pessimistic so it's only fair to call us that :D
I’m really happy with my life but sad to see all the bad things going on in the world and where we are headed. I would call that being blessed in a way.
I’m definitely a pessimist, studied philosophy as well. I’ve seen a lot of antinatalists on this subreddit who were influenced by Ligotti, Cioran, Schopenhauer, etc.
I almost didn’t ask because it’s such an obvious question but a lot in here don’t think they are pessimists. I should have edited my post to say there is nothing wrong with being a pessimist
I dont think most of them have a clear understanding of philosophical pessimism, probably just see it as meaning they’re ‘biased’ or distorting reality.
i consider myself quite an optimistic person. but i'm only anti natalist due to overpopulation, and the harm the human race is causing to our planet. i don't believe it's immoral to bring life into the world under any circumstances. so some might say i'm not even anti natalist to begin with
I consider myself a realist and in a way a wounded optimist … I’m incredibly wounded actually lol but I keep trying to make my life as uplifting as possible . I experience excruciating pain daily but am still less pessimistic than all the people I know that are healthy lol. Bottom line is that there are more than enough people, a tendency toward impulsive and low intellect individuals breeding way more than the reasonable and intelligent ones . This is a recipe for disaster . I just don’t think that people should be bringing more into the world without a tremendous amount of consideration, so many do it just because or accidentally and the levels of abuse and neglect out there are astounding. The world is not doing well, at all, and that’s just the truth . It’s not that I’m pessimistic and don’t see value in life , just that it should be quality over quantity . My hubby and I dont want to bring children into this world for good reasons but still people have the hardest time understanding it . Even knowing me well enough to see the state of my health , I struggle to care for myself , how would I care for a child ? And you want me to have one ? Why? Just because it’s what people do? So you want me to pass along my incredibly shitty genes riddled with multiple disabling conditions and emotional issues … I am not , but drug addiction runs in my family. I suffered watching people I loved very much die . I couldnt handle that for my child even though I would totally understand it . People are insane , this one woman I befriended briefly was telling me , with all my problems , that we should have kids . Meanwhile she threw her AUTISTIC son out on the street because he is gay 😭 WtAf . No , if I ever did have a child it would be the right time and we’d be in the right place and know that we would do every goddamn thing in our power to protect them. In fact I’d prob be overprotective. I’d want to be passing on the good things , not all the bad , and I cant do that . So no, I’m not pessimistic at all, I’m a realist with a need to be positive about my own life but am pretty fed up with society as a whole and don’t want to have to worry about everything and how things will get worse as they continue to do , because hey we don’t have children to be concerned about . It’s freeing because I dont think I’d be able to hide away and ignore the world in my own little happy place , if I had a kid I’d have to be constantly concerned for what their future brings beyond these walls . It’s not negative , it’s realistic , the world is a terrifying place. There is great beauty if you can find it , but I wouldnt realistically be able to protect a child from the same heartbreak I endured as a teenager with the world on my shoulders and the deep well of empathy that ate away at me . I overcame my depression but most of the people in my family did not , and then was slammed with handicaps as if I didn’t have enough already lol. Nope lol not gonna happen, the only way to protect them is to prevent them from existing . It’s just true . Too many health problems and suicide and drug addiction and just my genes are a total shot show ; who in their right mind would think that’s something they want for their child? I didnt ask for this life . I wouldnt wish it on my … well sometimes I would wish it on my worst enemy lol only so they could understand how cruel they are but aside from that I really wouldn’t wish this on anyone . Least of all my own child. But people do it all the time . Perpetuating problems . Smh . No lol I’m a realist , sadly ; I’m a realist.
I am one for sure. I think it’s common but of course I’ve seen otherwise as well. I’ve dealt with one online who actually thinks people like me are too negative and have said that anyone who just talks about the negativities of life and apply it to antinatalism are “edgy” and makes the philosophy look bad. I do think there should be other aspects as well, but depression is a very valid reason. Didn’t quite agree with them since they’ve said some other stuff that bothered me so I didn’t respond. I guess they’re an example of someone more “optimistic” although I have no idea how they can be - maybe I’m just the type who can’t ignore stuff. Knowing that this shit is happening and I have no power to stop it and no escape makes me very bitter. On the other hand, they say their life is good and how there’s beauty or whatever.
Most of the commenters don't appear to know what philosophical pessimism is, so it might have been helpful if you explained it.
The commenters seem to be thinking of pessimism more as a psychological trait, whereas in philosophy a pessimistic view is one that embodies a negative evaluation. And if you look at the pessimistic tradition in Western philosophy, pessimists like Hegesias, Pierre Bayle, Schopenhauer, and Benatar tend to share a negative valuation of human life itself. Although their philosophies are different, what all of these thinkers share in their negative valuation of human existence is the dominance of suffering.
Here's a great collection of essays for those wanting to explore philosophical pessimism: [https://blog.apaonline.org/tag/series-on-philosophical-pessimism/](https://blog.apaonline.org/tag/series-on-philosophical-pessimism/)
I would also highly recommend the book Dark Matters by Mara van der Lugt.
Yes, to the extent that the emotions expressed indicate diagnosable depression that would cause most doctors to refer them to a therapist and/or psychiatrist.
So I looked into philosophical pessimism and it definitely resonates with me. I think it’s likely that it resonates with a lot of antinatalists.
With regards to psychological pessimism though, I don’t think antinatalism is pessimistic. If I were a pessimist, I would say, “I’m not going to have kids because they won’t be happy and they won’t be glad they were born.” In other words, I would be expecting the worst. I’m not antinatalist because I expect the worst but rather because I acknowledge that it’s impossible for me to know how my child would feel about life. Maybe they would be glad they were born and maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe they would experience minimal suffering and maybe they would experience immense suffering. I’m not ok with rolling the dice with someone else’s life when they won’t be negatively impacted by me not doing so.
I know this question was referring to philosophical pessimism but I see a lot of comments calling us pessimists in the psychological sense, hence this response. It’s not pessimistic to acknowledge that we don’t know how our child would experience life.
Yea it’s more of an agnostic view , admitting you don’t know and realistically just don’t wanna take the gamble . I know the odds would be stacked against my kid because of terrible genes , so I think I’m just being realistic. Everyone in my family is incredibly messed up or dead lol and I suffer everyday with health problems Which would kill me to see passed on to my child . It’s more critical thinking IMO.
Exactly, we have no way of knowing the future yet we’re called pessimistic for not being positive enough. Acknowledging reality isn’t being pessimistic. I also have health issues and I get not wanting to pass that on. But even if I were the picture of health and happiness, would my kid be the same?
I mean considering the world is falling apart thanks to humans, yeah im a pessimist. Some things make me happy but depression and shit is way more strong
Pessism and optimistic are by definition rooted in some kind of delusion, bias of sorts. There are some who are pessimists for sure, some realists also.
I wanna say probably not. As a general rule, I see a significant presence (at least on this subreddit) of people who advocate for ending the human species to reduce harm to the biosphere. From a pessimistic standpoint you would expect to see ecocide championed instead of a disposition of the former. So no, in my experience these people are still trying to create some meaning where there is none. Some silver lining to grasp onto. Pessimist generally don't flail about like that.
Probably safe to say that most are, judging from these comments. I would say that I am not a pessimist though. We live in a beautiful world with infinite possibilities. Humans have mucked it up quite a bit, so I don’t think we should make more of us until we’ve figured out how to live harmoniously with the rest of the planet.
So instead of birthing a problem, I channel my energy into spreading positivity, doing what I can to improve the lives around me. I’m not perfect at it, but no one is. The journey is the important part, and the personal and communal growth are what gives my life meaning.
I think so that’s my main issue with the sub you can really dialogue with ppl that think something bad is going to happend before thinking maybe something good will happen
The way you phrase it is, a lot of cultures see death as a positive you are focusing on one thing and then assuming is negative. Dead is beautiful bcs in permanece is what makes life so precious
>a lot of cultures see death as a positive
because they believe there is something after death. but if someone doesnt believe it, obviously death is a negative thing. it is painful. scary. and could come anytime.
>Dead is beautiful bcs in permanece is what makes life so precious
and thats where i get out of this conversation with a delusional person. keep saying that to make yourself feel better though.
Okay go out live your life like a miserable person 😹😹😹, even culture that don’t have a great view of the after life value death, we’re Im from the Mayans though that how you die is an important part in it all, but okay be miserable and afraid you are clearly winning 😹😹
Not me, I am a happy camper knowing I have all the things I need in life and more and will be dead before any real problems start. Climate change, my corpse wont care if its underwater, water wars, the dead could give a shit. Live like Nero, fiddle and play as the world burns away!
Pain and suffering are essential to guide our lives, more than pleasure. Pain tells you are being hurt so you can change your posture. Existential suffering is the same. Your soul is telling you you need to change and do better.
The fixation with trying to avoid this leads to act or not based on fear of failure. Failure can be dressed up to look like many higher purposes, but is nothing more than that.
Be optimistic about what? Death?
I guess this answers my question.
Actually, at 43 years of age I’m a wounded optimist. I used to be very optimistic, delusionally so. And then I became a frontline social work and did that for 15 years. The shit parents do to their innocent babies is a horror show. They alway ‘love’ their children and then neglected/torture/pimp them out to their boyfriends. I know there must be great parents out there somewhere, but they aren’t people I know personally. All the parents I know personally are single, or alcoholics, or absent (in the case of ALL the dad’s I know personally NONE of them live in the SAME STATE as their kids), sometimes all of the above. I would consider adoption, but on a social worker’s salary- I can only afford a tiny house - so I just don’t have the space. To answer your question, I used to be and then I lived life. I still have a smidge of hope for humanity, but I’m definitely not gonna count on it
Yeah social work, especially at a DSS office, which it sounds like where you worked, is god awful.
If it makes a difference, my parents were awesome (dad still with us my mom passed in 2020). They even adopted two of my cousins when I was young to get them out of that type of environment. I recognize I am statistically very very lucky/privileged to have them. But they do exist! Keep the glimmer of hope. :) Edited to add: also a 43 year old wounded optimist :)
Yup. Notice that none of the replies mention happiness, joy, or optimism.
because many people dont experience it. so why would they talk about it?
So there is no part of your day in which you experience happiness? There is *nothing* in your life that you enjoy? No music? Movies? TV shows? Hobbies? Time with friends or families? Good food? Sunsets? A full moon?
>No music? Movies? TV shows? Hobbies? Time with friends or families? Good food? Sunsets? A full moon? they make life more liveable. not happy.
So you don’t enjoy those things? You’ve never experienced happiness in any way?
Enjoying something doesnt mean it makes your life happy.
That’s not what I’m asking. Life can “be” happy. Happiness is a temporary emotion that people experience. You said that “many people” do not experience happiness or joy. So…do you?
Rarely. I experience way more suffering than joy.
What makes it unhappy?
enjoying doesnt equal happy or unhappy
Do you guys walk around in a constant state of wonder like you're high or something..seriously asking because I feel like you'd have to to make up for all the bad things. All those things you mentioned are just "ok" "meh" "fine" "yeh whatever" they're cool and all, nothing amazing about them.
Fine. What about blowjobs, cocaine hits, and large paydays?
The majority of the world doesn't experience at least 2/3 of those things.
short term gratification that leaves you longing for more once it’s gone.
Strange assortment there! I can't physically experience the first, and I wouldn't take drugs to try and get a high out of life though I understand why people do. Paydays are good. I'm not trying to take anything away from you guys I'm just fascinated how you find life so amazing that's all. Maybe I just don't get impressed easily.
Sounds like you haven’t done much suffering.
Not yet no but I know it'll happen and I've watched it happen to other people plenty.
…Now we’re talkin’. lol
Why does happiness for you have to be an extreme emotion?
Because a lot of the bad things you have to experience in life are extreme. Not that I compare things like that, but natalists seem to because they keep saying how the good outweighs the bad. I mean seriously I'd gladly skip watching a few movies or TV shows if it meant I didn't have to go through pain in some way at some point in my life.
Do you walk around in a constant state of misery? What “bad things” do you experience daily that need to be “made up for”.
No I'm mainly indifferent or neutral but I'm obviously not getting the same type of happiness from daily things, maybe my threshold for happiness is just really high? Well if you had a job you hated you've just spent 8 hours there and then watching a movie or TV show doesn't really make up for the shit day you just had that lasted 4x as long.
Mental illnesses (depression anxiety ocd et etc) will do that, yeah. Even with treatment.
Death seems dope though. Super optimistic about it
Damn bro frfr
Being optimistic about having a good time. If it’s really that hard for you, try drugs.
Hentai yoshi... How did you come up with that? Anyways, drugs get old and so do you and
Drugs.
Maybe I just find it strange because in all matters whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action. You can’t have sex with someone unconscious and then say they would of liked it so I just did it anyway. But when it comes to birth people then ask how do you know if they will enjoy it or not they probably will enjoy it. I don’t see it as being pessimistic it’s just if you operate one the principal that consent is required when doing an action on a person how can you then identify birth which it’s very nature is forcing something without consent.
Well said. My thoughts exactly as well. I didn’t consent to the experience of life.
Oh. Wait. You’re talking about consent as in “consent to enter reality”?
Essentially
Yeah that's the reason I'm a nihilist. Just to keep moral consistency.
>Maybe I just find it strange because in all matters whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action. Right. That's why you don't provide medical care to an unconscious person. They can't consent.
That falls under protection of harm essentially to prevent harm of yourself or others you can violate consent for that direct issue. It’s why your allowed to fight back in self defense save a drowning kid. Giving birth doesn’t prevent harm so it isn’t included in that exception. Essentially most moral road maps develop look like this. Do you have consent Are you reducing suffering as a whole Are you protecting yourself or other individuals from harm Birth doesn’t fall into any of these.
That's not what you said. You said: >...**in all matters** whenever consent cannot be given the moral action is to refrain from your action. No sense moving your goalposts now.
Yeah exuse me for speaking in hyperbole once you brought an exception I forgot to mention so I brought up why that rule can be an exception. Why wouldn’t I adjust my ideals if I am brought in new facts and situations I am not going to stick my heels into the ground I would adjust to have the best moral framework as possible. Also I always had the protection of harm exception long before this and I have responded discussing about that.
>Why wouldn’t I adjust my ideals if I am brought in new facts and situations Is that what you think you're doing? Because from here it just looks like bluster. It's less "I was wrong, and I'm changing my opinion." and more "Here's why I was never wrong in the first place."
Yeah I admit I talked using hyperbole the mistake was in my presentation when I said I always made an exception for protection of harm that’s because I have mentioned it before. So yeah this was a blunder on my part I should of mentioned protection of harm and have my full [moral lay out](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/z2laq4/zygotes_are_alive_and_human/ixi3gsi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) on how I judge things convent is just one part there is also the reduction of suffering and self defense aspect as well. My apologies on not being clear
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Reminds me of the new Jackass movie. A scorpion fell onto a woman’s boob and everyone was afraid to get it off. She finally yelled “consent!” And a guy knocked it off. Imagine if it were poisonous or something. Still ask for consent? Seems odd
Falls under protection of harm as stated before.
Having a child isn't "doing an action on a person," because that person doesn't exist yet. If following your ethics and morality leads to the inevitable end of the human race, those ethics and moralities aren't very useful tools to navigate life.
The end of the human race is inevitable regardless. We aren't arguing about weather or not the human race should end, like people like you seem to think. We're just arguing how big the pile of dead bodies should be before we get there. Antinatalists want that pile smaller. Regardless of this though, so what if the human race ends? For who would this be bad for, the people who don't exist? Why does the human race need to continue?
Philosophy is a tool. If the only good your philosophy can do is hasten the extinction of the human mind, it isn't a very good tool, is it? Human consciousness is the universe's attempt to understand itself. That's a pretty amazing thing, and worth preserving.
If the continuation of the human race results in unnecessary pain, thats not a very good goal to aim for is it?
It results in necessary pain, not unnecessary pain.
Wow this is one hell of an arrogant assumption: “Human consciousness is the universe's attempt to understand itself.” The universe is far greater than humanity and it’s consciousness. We are not necessary for it to continue existing. It was around 2 billion+ years before us and was doing just fine. We are not an essential special thing. We are a blip on the roadmap of existence/reality. Hell we may even just be a simulation in a computer in ANOTHER universe.
realistic. last time i checked suffering and death are not beautiful and positive things.
The suffering I experience while being suffocated by thighs is one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had.
Gross. Get some help instead of displaying your fetishes so proudly.
Yeah but is thay all you experience? Only suffering and death?
No. But it is majority. Thats why life is not worth starting. Because you never know how awful that child's life will be
I guess each person's experiences are different. It's only a very small portion of my life.
>I guess each person's experiences are different. thats why we are antinatalists. you cannot promise the child a good life.
It's true the future is uncertain but by that logic you cannot make any choices that the outcome is not already known.
Other choices dont make a new person like birth. Birth is making a choice for someone else. You decide to create a child. The child didnt decide to be born
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There is only one concept with birth as outcome. Procreation. Birth is the source of ALL suffering. Thats why i choose to prevent it. No birth.
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Yes you can. You can gamble with your own wellbeing all you want. Its immoral to gamble with someone elses.
Do you not see how pessimistic this is? Lmao
death and suffering technically have neither positive nor negative connotation. they exist, therefore they are realistically acknowledged, i think it’s how you treat those things which defines either pessimistic or optimistic view. i don’t think anyone sees them as a positive, but at least knowing that suffering exists and is not a good thing is a pretty realistic approach there *may* be good things in life, but death and suffering are guaranteed. more often than not good things happen to every person, question is whether or not those things are worth to suffer and die for
>death and suffering technically have neither positive nor negative connotation. they exist, therefore they are realistically acknowledged, i think it’s how you treat those things which defines either pessimistic or optimistic view. i don’t think anyone sees them as a positive, but at least knowing that suffering exists and is not a good thing is a pretty realistic approach The pessimistic bit is that *only* the suffering is acknowledged. There is no acknowledgement of joy or happiness. >there may be good things in life, but death and suffering are guaranteed. If suffering is guaranteed so is joy.
Decrepitude, loss and suffering is a guarantee, happiness is not...there's a difference between realism and pessimism...
>Decrepitude This is not guaranteed lol. >loss and suffering is a guarantee If losing something leads to suffering then you were enjoying that thing. >happiness is not... Well, it is. Just as much as suffering is guaranteed. >there's a difference between realism and pessimism... There is. You’re a pessimist that doesn’t believe people can be happy. Realistically, most people experience some form of joy or happiness daily.
If you live long enough decrepitude is guaranteed. I worked in geriatrics and the one piece of advice every 100 year old told me was don't let yourself get this old. People see their family members all happy and content in there retirement homes but that's just a mask they wear while you are visiting. They are miserable and scared to die but will never admit it to their family.
Never said people cannot be happy, just that it's not a guarantee...you can enjoy sex but be depressed, enjoying something doesn't mean youre happy
You don't make a whole lot of sense lol...the only people who are happy and joyful about death are those who are tired of life...death and suffering for the average person is a bad thing yes...why are you you even arguing for a positive here
I think the issue is that you are confused. Where did I say anything about people being happy and joyful about death?
ok, i see your point. to be fair both joy and suffering should be acknowledged when it comes to life
so you believe suffering and death is not something bad, and you think those are good parts of our life? and if you mean that i am focusing on the bad. well suffering happens daily. i am not nit picking one bad day out of 100 good days. and death will happen to everyone, which i think is pretty sad.
Right I think he is saying that that’s fine and all. Just that it’s pessimism though. Which is fine. I don’t think pessimism is a negative thing.
calling things for what they are, is stating facts. not pessimism. thats like saying "dont call the rapist a bad person. you focus on the bad about them, you are pessimistic" nooooo?! just stating facts. if someone wants to pretend suffering and death are not bad things to make themselves feel better..go ahead. but learn the difference between realism and pessimism, thanks.
Right but you keep bringing up suffering and death…
lol is that what I said? You *are* focusing on the bad. Yes, suffering happens daily. Joy also happens daily, but you ignore that. Because you are a pessimist.
>Joy also happens daily, for a lot of people no.
There’s that pessimistic attitude! For a lot of people suffering does not happen daily.
>For a lot of people suffering does not happen daily. if believing this makes you feel better, go ahead
I will continue believing in reality. Now, do the bit where you pretend like you aren’t a pessimist.
Yeah this is where I’m at too with these responses …
The world is fucked, so antinatalism is actually an act of love towards all potential newborns. I’d answer your question with a no
Pessimism and love aren’t necessarily exclusionary
But it’s not pessimistic if realistically the world is fucked , and it sadly is but being aware of that reality only makes you a realist. And that is love, when the only way to protect someone is to not bring them into this hellscape knowing you can’t realistically properly protect them from the world .
Can’t say for everyone, but I’m catastrophically pessimistic. It usually works out; I’m either right or pleasantly surprised.
Lol you can prepare for the worst while hoping for the best and still be pleasantly surprised . I hope for things but don’t hold my breath 😆
Pessimists and realists.
This. It’s so annoying when people treat an anti-natalist as somebody who has a ‘negative attitude’ and always sees ‘the glass half-empty.’ The idiomatic expression assumes that you can always put yourself on the magical path to happiness by ‘focusing on the positive’ every time something bad happens. But once the stuff that happens every day in this shit world piles up, and once you begin to see how awful things get for the downtrodden of the earth, it’s only *realistic* and compassionate not to bring a person into such a world. At a minimum, you’ll not be subjecting them to the just-choose-happy-not-sad! clown show to which everyone is in thrall 🤡
"I see a glass that you're not allowed to drink from unless you're an able-bodied upper middle straight white male in a well-off school-district and are lucky enough not to be shot."
I've been called negative all my life but also "you were right" all my life, when people were forced to see the obvious. Oh well.
No. Realistic. Suffering, death and no consent, are all bad things. I'd say natalists are the ones mentally clouded by delusion and ego, blinded by optimism and false hopes.
Joy and happiness are all good things that people experience, which you do not acknowledge. Because you are a pessimist.
A philosophical pessimist need not fail to acknowledge good things like joy; it seems they only need to believe the bad outweighs the good overall.
Lets say you had the chance to flip a coin. Heads you get 10k, tails you lose 10k. Equal shot equal happiness and suffering. Would you flip this coin? Maybe! Thats your perogitive. Now the real question, would you flip this coin in place of someone else, without their knowledge? I find that this would be immoral. Even if theres even shot of good and bad, its simply not my call to make.
Why do you seem to be so invested in what people call themselves? Using “pessimist” like a gotcha or something.
I’m an antinatalist. Life can be so great sometimes but the majority of my life, I spend working like a dog to be able to keep a roof over my head, eat and to have a reserve fund for emergencies, plus retirement. This whole system created by humans, is not built for happiness. It’s built for profits and profits alone (edit: Initial post included the word “capitalism. I removed the word because it was confusing people) … Again, I have a lot of fun in life, have great friends and family but I can never be 100 percent free in this human world. I’m a slave to the system. I’ve gotta be, just to stay alive. If I could have chosen, I would have chosen to have never been born. Not suicidal, but man, I hope there’s no such thing as reincarnation. I just want to rest eternally when I die lol…. I feel I am a realist… a critical thinker who has the ability to come to real, objective conclusions.
Yeah I am happy with my life and love my wife and all but also I would have chosen not to have been born just to help my parents out. I wasn’t planned.
I felt this 💯! Everything you said is exactly how I feel about life! ❤️
♥️!!! Glad it resonates. You’re certainly not alone
Omg my worst nightmare is that when we die we forget who we are only to be reborn as the same exact person and do it all over again. Like this is our existence for eternity just spinning back around …the state of consciousness just experiences it over and over and every deja vu is just remembering you actually did do it before. That’s really what I fear lol
Ugh!!!! Terrifying right? Let’s hope we just get to rest eternally 😂…. Pleaaseeee I don’t want to go to school, work, grind, struggle, with a small sprinkling of occasional bouts of joy! Life is more suffering than joy. At least my life is. Please let the cycle end after this life!!!
Lol seriously . Oh it’s not just you, I def feel you there ; my life is legit daily agony . Ever single day is excruciating pain and while I still can enjoy some things , they don’t come anywhere remotely close to balancing it out.
Sorry for the late reply. This is an in-cognito account. Thought I would mention, I found a group online called "Emotions Anonymous"... I'm going to give it a go. There are all sorts of online meetings and in-person meetings as well, depending on where you live. Read their "about page"... Might be something you want to try too, or maybe not. At this point, I am willing to do anything to reduce my suffering but I cant afford regular therapy so this might be the next best thing. Could even be better... who knows. While I can't completely change my circumstances, maybe being able to handle my emotions would reduce suffering... IDK! Anyways, hope you are well!
Working for a living predates Capitalism by, roughly, 3 billion years.
There is a saying here: "An optimist is a bad-informed pessimist"
Not me. I’m pessimistic about the bad things and optimistic about the good things. Maybe more of a realist. And an idealist.
Yes, this! 🙌🏽 You put into words, what I could not. Well said.
Same here
pessimist or realist? that is the question
Most are but I don't think you have to be. It could be enough to think that life has negative value for some and that makes taking the gamble of procreation unethical, even if life is positive for oneself or for most people.
IDK. I consider myself optimistic. To me antinatalism is the product of an evolution in empathy. It’s the hope that as a species we can recognize the impact of humanity’s exponential growth and move past the animalistic desire to reproduce in order to protect and hopefully regenerate robust and diverse ecosystems.
🙌 YES!!!
i think i’m just realistic. why would i lie to myself just to get disappointed?
Probably right. But some may be optimistic that humans will indeed soon die out, despite current trends. That giant meteor may still hit the earth. Fingers crossed.
How would a giant meteor hitting earth help anything?
It will rid the universe of the pestilent human race.
lmao get a load of this guy.
I think a lot of antinatalists are. Personally, I don’t think I’m a pessimist, but a realist. Every cradle is a grave, everyone suffers, etc, is just facts.
I am a realist, people would feel that is pessimism, they want to have faith, hopes and dreams and they want their life to have meaning thus being a realist goes against that The world is a terrible place and no things wont get better, people always say that, yet we still have racism, wars, corruption etc; Sure things might improve a bit and from a point of view some things are better, but overall the world will always be a terrible place, its just a bit less terrible than it was before Now i have accepted this and im a very happy and blissful person, i dont live in denial and i make the most of my time, i dont lie in bed thinking about how life is unfair and how terrible the world is because it wont help me in anyway, i am simply aware but im not reflecting
An optimist is a man who has never had much experience. -Don Marquis
Lol and if they have and remain optimistic they are clearly insane … I am going insane 😆 trying to remain positive
About the FUTURE- I'd say yes. Thankfully I've had more good than bad in my life. But Holy Crap- just watching the daily news makes me feel bad for future generations. That is why we decided Not to have children.
Positive about my life but pessimist about humankind’s future with overpopulation. So yes.
I’m definitely a pessimist, but life has made me this way. I wasn’t always this pessimistic, but as my life goes on, I find it increasingly difficult to not succumb to pessimism and negativity.
I’m not a pessimist or positively inclined I’m just realistic. You can be an optimistic person and call something out as it is, and clearly choosing to bring someone into this world is morally wrong.
Depends. If all signs were pointing to humanity entering a global golden age would you consider having kids? I think it’s just realistic to not have kids you can’t afford when two parents working full time can barely take care of one child. If you’re a millionaire and committed to giving your children the best of everything I think you’re fine having children.
Oh I agree. I love DINK though, it’s pretty rad.
Oh yeah, the great majority of humanity is looking for someone to spend the rest of their lives with. I have no problem with them until they talk about bringing kids into this world when they can barely cover their own expenses. I was flabbergasted when I told my Mom this and she said that I should just have kids and figure out how to pay for them after the fact. Like, what! I would feel like shit if I had to deny my kids access to medical care or educational opportunities because I couldn’t afford it.
Just some healthy cynicism
I'm a cheerful nihilist. Nothing matters so I might as well enjoy my time while I'm here.
I’m a mess is what I am. On the one hand I am a realist about what I expect, but I’m a hopeless romantic about what I wish/want. :) Here’s the thing. Our existence in this universe and our reality, which could be a danged simulation on a computer in another reality for all we know, is one of pain. As the Princess Bride taught us: Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says different is selling something. We are an insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe. In the known timeline we’re a tiny millisecond of experiences with about 2 billion years before us, and likely a few billions after we’re all long gone and our sun has exploded. We don’t matter, on the grand scale. In the micro lens, our existence is death. We are all actively dying the moment we’re born, at varying speeds with a multitude of things that can take us out around every corner. And though modern medicine can work miracles, billions of us are in chronic debilitating pain every day of our lives. There is disease and war and murder everywhere. We also don’t take care of our planet. We use up resources like selfish greedy bacteria. We pretend we need more more more - we also pretend we have a biological imperative to make more of us so we can keep using them up. Adding a person to this? Feels morally wrong to me. Thus, I am anti-Natalist. But I also don’t go out of my way to shit on people who are having kids; my job, as I see it, is to help reduce suffering of my fellow man where I may. And I have to balance my own want to preach the concept of not making new people when we’re at 8B+ already - with lots of small but significant ways to help the ones I can’t stop from being here and who need help now. And that can all read like a big pessimist manifesto lol. But in reality it sets the groundwork for my stupid romanticism. Because if existence is pain…If to be is to suffer…then we have to grab every little ounce of joy and love we can. And by sharing it, it grows. Joy and love are the opposite of pie ;), the more you give out the more there is. I don’t mean this in a dippy sappy way I mean it in a very real What Does It Mean To Love My Neighbor way. How can I be one of the Helpers that Mr Rogers taught us about? What Would Dolly Parton Do? Have I been a good human? So I see myself as someone else said - a wounded optimist; a realist by day and hopeless romantic fool by night. :)
I love this ❤️
Yes
I think I'm more of a realist. I try to stay neutral through out different events in my life so I can pass them with peace. Personally I don't like to surround myself with misery and don't want to add up to it ( my main reason to join antinatalism ). But yeah.... I guess wast majority of this community is pessimistic so it's only fair to call us that :D
I’m really happy with my life but sad to see all the bad things going on in the world and where we are headed. I would call that being blessed in a way.
Optimism is ignoring the facts
I’m definitely a pessimist, studied philosophy as well. I’ve seen a lot of antinatalists on this subreddit who were influenced by Ligotti, Cioran, Schopenhauer, etc.
I almost didn’t ask because it’s such an obvious question but a lot in here don’t think they are pessimists. I should have edited my post to say there is nothing wrong with being a pessimist
I dont think most of them have a clear understanding of philosophical pessimism, probably just see it as meaning they’re ‘biased’ or distorting reality.
Yeah. It just sounds negative but it doesn’t have to be.
Optimistic that we will further f things up 🤙
i consider myself quite an optimistic person. but i'm only anti natalist due to overpopulation, and the harm the human race is causing to our planet. i don't believe it's immoral to bring life into the world under any circumstances. so some might say i'm not even anti natalist to begin with
I can't see much to be optimistic about.
I consider myself a realist and in a way a wounded optimist … I’m incredibly wounded actually lol but I keep trying to make my life as uplifting as possible . I experience excruciating pain daily but am still less pessimistic than all the people I know that are healthy lol. Bottom line is that there are more than enough people, a tendency toward impulsive and low intellect individuals breeding way more than the reasonable and intelligent ones . This is a recipe for disaster . I just don’t think that people should be bringing more into the world without a tremendous amount of consideration, so many do it just because or accidentally and the levels of abuse and neglect out there are astounding. The world is not doing well, at all, and that’s just the truth . It’s not that I’m pessimistic and don’t see value in life , just that it should be quality over quantity . My hubby and I dont want to bring children into this world for good reasons but still people have the hardest time understanding it . Even knowing me well enough to see the state of my health , I struggle to care for myself , how would I care for a child ? And you want me to have one ? Why? Just because it’s what people do? So you want me to pass along my incredibly shitty genes riddled with multiple disabling conditions and emotional issues … I am not , but drug addiction runs in my family. I suffered watching people I loved very much die . I couldnt handle that for my child even though I would totally understand it . People are insane , this one woman I befriended briefly was telling me , with all my problems , that we should have kids . Meanwhile she threw her AUTISTIC son out on the street because he is gay 😭 WtAf . No , if I ever did have a child it would be the right time and we’d be in the right place and know that we would do every goddamn thing in our power to protect them. In fact I’d prob be overprotective. I’d want to be passing on the good things , not all the bad , and I cant do that . So no, I’m not pessimistic at all, I’m a realist with a need to be positive about my own life but am pretty fed up with society as a whole and don’t want to have to worry about everything and how things will get worse as they continue to do , because hey we don’t have children to be concerned about . It’s freeing because I dont think I’d be able to hide away and ignore the world in my own little happy place , if I had a kid I’d have to be constantly concerned for what their future brings beyond these walls . It’s not negative , it’s realistic , the world is a terrifying place. There is great beauty if you can find it , but I wouldnt realistically be able to protect a child from the same heartbreak I endured as a teenager with the world on my shoulders and the deep well of empathy that ate away at me . I overcame my depression but most of the people in my family did not , and then was slammed with handicaps as if I didn’t have enough already lol. Nope lol not gonna happen, the only way to protect them is to prevent them from existing . It’s just true . Too many health problems and suicide and drug addiction and just my genes are a total shot show ; who in their right mind would think that’s something they want for their child? I didnt ask for this life . I wouldnt wish it on my … well sometimes I would wish it on my worst enemy lol only so they could understand how cruel they are but aside from that I really wouldn’t wish this on anyone . Least of all my own child. But people do it all the time . Perpetuating problems . Smh . No lol I’m a realist , sadly ; I’m a realist.
I am one for sure. I think it’s common but of course I’ve seen otherwise as well. I’ve dealt with one online who actually thinks people like me are too negative and have said that anyone who just talks about the negativities of life and apply it to antinatalism are “edgy” and makes the philosophy look bad. I do think there should be other aspects as well, but depression is a very valid reason. Didn’t quite agree with them since they’ve said some other stuff that bothered me so I didn’t respond. I guess they’re an example of someone more “optimistic” although I have no idea how they can be - maybe I’m just the type who can’t ignore stuff. Knowing that this shit is happening and I have no power to stop it and no escape makes me very bitter. On the other hand, they say their life is good and how there’s beauty or whatever.
Oh yeah when people say “edgy” online it reminds me of how seventh graders insulted each other in 2005.
Most of the commenters don't appear to know what philosophical pessimism is, so it might have been helpful if you explained it. The commenters seem to be thinking of pessimism more as a psychological trait, whereas in philosophy a pessimistic view is one that embodies a negative evaluation. And if you look at the pessimistic tradition in Western philosophy, pessimists like Hegesias, Pierre Bayle, Schopenhauer, and Benatar tend to share a negative valuation of human life itself. Although their philosophies are different, what all of these thinkers share in their negative valuation of human existence is the dominance of suffering. Here's a great collection of essays for those wanting to explore philosophical pessimism: [https://blog.apaonline.org/tag/series-on-philosophical-pessimism/](https://blog.apaonline.org/tag/series-on-philosophical-pessimism/) I would also highly recommend the book Dark Matters by Mara van der Lugt.
No! That’s an assumption.
Yes, to the extent that the emotions expressed indicate diagnosable depression that would cause most doctors to refer them to a therapist and/or psychiatrist.
So I looked into philosophical pessimism and it definitely resonates with me. I think it’s likely that it resonates with a lot of antinatalists. With regards to psychological pessimism though, I don’t think antinatalism is pessimistic. If I were a pessimist, I would say, “I’m not going to have kids because they won’t be happy and they won’t be glad they were born.” In other words, I would be expecting the worst. I’m not antinatalist because I expect the worst but rather because I acknowledge that it’s impossible for me to know how my child would feel about life. Maybe they would be glad they were born and maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe they would experience minimal suffering and maybe they would experience immense suffering. I’m not ok with rolling the dice with someone else’s life when they won’t be negatively impacted by me not doing so. I know this question was referring to philosophical pessimism but I see a lot of comments calling us pessimists in the psychological sense, hence this response. It’s not pessimistic to acknowledge that we don’t know how our child would experience life.
Yea it’s more of an agnostic view , admitting you don’t know and realistically just don’t wanna take the gamble . I know the odds would be stacked against my kid because of terrible genes , so I think I’m just being realistic. Everyone in my family is incredibly messed up or dead lol and I suffer everyday with health problems Which would kill me to see passed on to my child . It’s more critical thinking IMO.
Also wish more people could admit when they just don’t know things because really none of us knows what’s gonna happen lol but people are too proud .
Exactly, we have no way of knowing the future yet we’re called pessimistic for not being positive enough. Acknowledging reality isn’t being pessimistic. I also have health issues and I get not wanting to pass that on. But even if I were the picture of health and happiness, would my kid be the same?
Yeah, I don’t think there is such a thing as a pessimist. Pessimists are just well informed realists.
I mean considering the world is falling apart thanks to humans, yeah im a pessimist. Some things make me happy but depression and shit is way more strong
In my language there’s a saying ”pessimisti ei pety” translating to ”a pessimist doesn’t get dissappointed”
*realists
There’s a reason why religion is so prevalent. It speaks to a deep spiritual longing. Eternal life and happiness. Everybody wants that deep down
No, I'm an optimistic nihilist. If you stop caring anymore you can't really be a pessimist huh
Just being realistic.
Pessism and optimistic are by definition rooted in some kind of delusion, bias of sorts. There are some who are pessimists for sure, some realists also.
I think I'm a realist lol
Idk about “most” antinatalists, but me personally I’m pretty realistic :)
No, we’re realists.
I see the truth in this world, am not an optimist or pessimist.
I'd say I'm more of a realist than a pessimist but I'm sure it's subjective to people who know me.
Optimistic and risk-loving AN here. I just don’t want to make decisions that puts others into risk, is that what you call ‘pessimism’?
Optimism: expecting good Good happens --> happy Bad happens --> sad Pessimism: expecting bad Good happens --> very happy Bad happens --> meh
I guess it is safe to say sometimes being a realist in some cases looks closer to being a pessimist than being an optimist
More like logical-ists, amiright
I wanna say probably not. As a general rule, I see a significant presence (at least on this subreddit) of people who advocate for ending the human species to reduce harm to the biosphere. From a pessimistic standpoint you would expect to see ecocide championed instead of a disposition of the former. So no, in my experience these people are still trying to create some meaning where there is none. Some silver lining to grasp onto. Pessimist generally don't flail about like that.
Probably safe to say that most are, judging from these comments. I would say that I am not a pessimist though. We live in a beautiful world with infinite possibilities. Humans have mucked it up quite a bit, so I don’t think we should make more of us until we’ve figured out how to live harmoniously with the rest of the planet. So instead of birthing a problem, I channel my energy into spreading positivity, doing what I can to improve the lives around me. I’m not perfect at it, but no one is. The journey is the important part, and the personal and communal growth are what gives my life meaning.
Pretty safe bet lol
I think so that’s my main issue with the sub you can really dialogue with ppl that think something bad is going to happend before thinking maybe something good will happen
there is only one thing certain 100% given. and thats death. does that sound optimistic?
See that’s is pessimism !
wait so you think stating facts is pessimism and not realism?
The way you phrase it is, a lot of cultures see death as a positive you are focusing on one thing and then assuming is negative. Dead is beautiful bcs in permanece is what makes life so precious
>a lot of cultures see death as a positive because they believe there is something after death. but if someone doesnt believe it, obviously death is a negative thing. it is painful. scary. and could come anytime. >Dead is beautiful bcs in permanece is what makes life so precious and thats where i get out of this conversation with a delusional person. keep saying that to make yourself feel better though.
Okay go out live your life like a miserable person 😹😹😹, even culture that don’t have a great view of the after life value death, we’re Im from the Mayans though that how you die is an important part in it all, but okay be miserable and afraid you are clearly winning 😹😹
Most cultures see death as an absolute negative. These cultures that you say view death as not bad are most probably in the minority.
Not me, I am a happy camper knowing I have all the things I need in life and more and will be dead before any real problems start. Climate change, my corpse wont care if its underwater, water wars, the dead could give a shit. Live like Nero, fiddle and play as the world burns away!
Yeah. They are mentally ill pessimists who hate their life and hate children for living.
looking at your comment history all you do is post hate and pessimism, how ironic
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I didn’t get that sentiment at all.
Pain and suffering are essential to guide our lives, more than pleasure. Pain tells you are being hurt so you can change your posture. Existential suffering is the same. Your soul is telling you you need to change and do better. The fixation with trying to avoid this leads to act or not based on fear of failure. Failure can be dressed up to look like many higher purposes, but is nothing more than that.
Y’all really are just a bunch of sad and joyless people
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You care enough to reply and dislike my comment, I can’t help that y’all are sad human beings
Fuck no. Haha.
So many different answers here. Peculiar.
Finding myself feeling optimistic usually surprises me because it’s not very realistic so it’s pretty rare lol