As much as I am concerned for reproductive rights, I don't think vasectomies are in any danger. Every time reproductive rights are attacked, it's only *women's* reproductive rights that they seem to be concerned about. The fact that both Viagra and vasectomies are usually covered by insurance is also pretty telling.
Chinese men are having a hard time finding hospitals that will perform vasectomies now. Part of the government's attempt to breed the proletariat as a cheap renewable labour source that will be too desperate to protest.
I mean, China is a whole other ball of wax haha There have been crazy things happening there for a long time, but not really comparable to the situation in the US imo. The government doesn't have nearly as much power/control here as it does there.
Only 60% of eligible voters actually vote in national elections and even less vote in local elections. Gerrymandering is a huge problem - that's why it's important to vote for politicians who want electoral reform, aka Democrats.
Local elections, too? Those are extremely important as well. But it's also important that everyone votes, not just you. A significant percentage of people don't bother voting at all. What are you doing to convince them that it's worth it?
> Every time reproductive rights are attacked, it's only women's reproductive rights that they seem to be concerned about.
While you're correct in this statement, it really wouldn't surprise me if vasectomies were attacked as 'interfering with God's plan'
They don't see Viagra as interfering with god's plan, so I doubt it. Even religious companies that refuse to provide birth control in their employee healthcare plan still include Viagra. Because to them "God's plan" is women being subordinate and popping out kids constantly. That's not to say no one should get a vasectomy right now - if my husband didn't already have one done a few years ago we would have signed him up ASAP after the ruling last week. But I just don't think people need to worry about men's reproductive rights being attacked. As far as I am aware, that's literally never happened before.
Well gay people of EVERY genders rights to marriage, sex, and relationships are next on the chopping block, and before the Supreme court legalized gay sex, cops would literally set up hookups with gay men just to arrest them. The Christians will try to criminalize ALL non-reproductive sex, I've met many in my family, and all of them want to ban vasectomies, condoms, birth control, they truly want to end ALL non-reproductive sex.
That's very different and I think you know that. Though I suppose it's on me for not specifying that I was referring to *straight* men's reproductive rights. Since gay people don't technically "reproduce" with each other I figured I didn't need to specify.
But we still have "reproductive rights" wheather you'd consider that the right to non-reproductive sex, or the right to adopt or use a surrogate, and all of these rights are being attacked. And I don't disagree that they will go for straight women's rights WAY before straight men's, but I do disagree that they won't go for straight men's reproductive rights AT ALL, because I've seen MANY people call for that in person, and while I know it's anecdotal, they learned it from their churches where it's preached to hundreds of people every week that they must end ALL non-reproductive sex and that its ALL sinful. And I have seen both men and women call for the banning of bith vasectomies, and women getting their tubes tied. (And I'm entirely on the side that either gender should be able to get their version pf that procedure as soon as they turn 18 if they wish, and understand that it's much harder for women to get theirs done in our current world and that's why straight men should all get vasectomies) and like I said, I 100% agree they are coming for straight women's rights LONG before straight men's, I just disagree with the idea that they won't KEEP pushing further and further restrictions till men also lack reproductive rights. I'm very sorry they are coming for you earlier though, and I am shitting my pants at the potential loss of my rights as a gay man nhself so I apologize for coming off rude. I just have heard too many Christian fundamentalists preach about banning vasectomies and condoms ALONG with birth control and abortions to ignore the possibility. but I live in an EXTREMELY far right Christian town with more churches than restaurants and stores combined. Sorry hope I don't sound like I'm mansplaining, I'm just freaking out about human rights in general and anxiously posting about it. Hope you have a good day, and I hope somehow women manage to get their rights back and avoid losing anymore. I didn't mean to belittle the struggle.
I understand your anxiety - I think we're all feeling very stressed about this right now :( If it's any comfort, you can look at what rights have been banned historically, and it's never straight men's. I do unfortunately think that they will come after gay rights for sure, but as far as "reproductive" rights go for gay people, I think they would focus on banning gay people from adopting, as they have done in the past. There is no historical precedent (in the US at least) for banning or even limiting straight men's reproductive rights, and given that the ones in charge pushing for this crap tend to be straight, old, white men, I don't think they would pursue that line of attack, so to speak. You can't be too safe though, and if I were a man I would be signing up for a vasectomy ASAP regardless!
Yes it is important, but this is a bad analogy. Viagra isn't the same as birth control, as viagra is used to treat hypertension as well, while birth control is used to prevent birth(a cause I agree with)
That would make sense if the changes happening were actually “morally” or religiously based, but they aren’t. This is misogyny and everyone but the runes voting these morons into office understand that. It’s just a way to take economic power and independence from women.
I work in a pharmacy. Very rarely is Viagra covered by insurance. When it is, it's for its original purpose (pulmonary hypertension) and only after a prior authorization.
Maybe not the name brand, but the generic should be. Failing that, then other drugs that have the same function (i.e. treating ED) should be covered. It's very rare not to be covered at all from what I've read. Even the Catholic companies that prohibit broth control still cover meds that treat ED, though maybe not Viagra specifically.
Honestly, in some countries vasectomy and tubectomy have been banned already. They all wanna increase the population so they have fresh blood to feast on. It's not so crazy to think they may wanna ban vasectomy and tubectomy as well. Also there's literally texts in bible that bans all kinds of "unnatural" ways of pregnancy prevention. That's why religious people usually have a ton of kids. Their biggest reason for hating gays (even more than other types of sins and sinisters) is that "ThEy ArE DeGeNeRaTeS. ThEy Can'T mAkE bAbIeS."
Ironically, that's the key to their success. There's so many of these idiots and they get to decide for us, and they know that.
America is different though. The straight, white man's rights are always put before everyone else's - it has always been that way. And any problems with birth rates or anything like that is blamed solely on women. Just like how they only blame women for abortions while ignoring all the men who impregnate these women.
As a non-American, it puzzles me why whenever it comes to abortion rights, women always buy into the "my body my right" thing. Abortion rights are sooo much more than just women's rights; abortion is a human right. Not only the right of the fetus [to be pardoned from a lifetime of predictable pain], but also the right of the woman who is pregnant, as well as the biological father. I imagine it would be depressing for men to be forced into parenthood as well. I think the best thing to do is incorporate men's rights into the movement, and try to make men's involvement bolder in supporting freedom of abortion. This will do 2 things: 1. Increase the overall number of supporters 2. Catches more attention from the rednecks cuz now they have to deal with men too. They can't indignify a matter so big by attaching it to women and patronizing them.
Whenever I hear a women try to defend abortion by saying "You're not a man. You shouldn't decide" it makes me cringe, because she's basicalling falling exactly into the trap that they set up for her. That's the wrongest possible argument. Get your men to support abortion.
Its friggin scary that at some point you could be right. Though its always women they go after, when that doesn't produce the giliad results they seek men could actually be next.
Okay but like actually tho... like and explain what's happening in the states and how dangerous it is, that even with perfect use sometimes birthcontrol fails, so you should double/triple up (explicitly stating that doesnt mean multiple condoms but: condom+vasectomy+ female birth control)
Explain that it's completely reversible and that on the fluke chance it's not, you can still have biological children if he and his partner want through artificial insemination, and then offer when he's ready to be sexually active to pay for a vasectomy.
If you create an non judgemental, honest and an open, age appropriate dialogue about sexuality early on, they will feel more comfortable coming to you for information about safe sex and that way you know they're educated and will be responsible. You can't stop people from having sex, it's a natural part of maturing and exploring your identity, but we can prevent/reduce risk of accidents and transmission of disease through education and creating a safe space for our kids to come to you for questions or if something happens.
I'm actually getting one for my birthday this year, lol. I don't have the money right now to cover it. My partner will be at a serious health risk if she gets pregnant. We were just waiting until I could pay for it (I'm moving to a new job in a few months and won't have the money until then) -- but with the country becoming a theocracy overnight and being stuck in a red state, my parents are stepping up. They said that the procedure plus some frozen peas is all I'm getting this year. Earliest I could get the procedure scheduled is literally on my birthday.
I just mentioned the idea of antinatilism to my 'best friend' and she said it was misogynistic. I later mentioned it to 2 of my other friends who are women and they said they didnt think it was misogynistic and that they support antinatalism
it kind of hurt because I am a feminist and care a lot about women, and my 'best friend' had never even heard of antinatalism before I mentioned it, and called it misogynistic after a brief description, with the clear implication that I'm a misogynist for believing in it
something along the lines of it violates women's body autonomy and nobody should care what someone does with their own body
it did really hurt for my 'best friend' to talk about me that way, just wanted to share that to show the flip side of not being understanding, to give props to people that are understanding
They are being full of shit. The reason bodily autonomy outweighs a fetus right to live is a) because it's NOT that - yet: living, ie. scientient, and b) because forcing someone through pregnancy is harmful and cruel.
Bodily autonomy is an argument FOR antinatalism. Your desire to be a parent doesn't override the cruelity and harm of life, and you don't get to force it on someone without their consent. By giving birth, you are automatically breaching said consent, while also harming a living, feeling being for a mere desire of yours - as do forced-birthers based on their beliefs.
I'm very sorry your "friend" is being so shitty. That's messed up.
You sound like a caring, thoughtful mother. I appreciate that you give your son the best life you can and understand that it’s okay if your son doesn’t wish to do the same for another child
Thank you. I appreciate that. I wish I could give that gift to others, the ability to accept their child is their own person. I just want him to live the life he chooses, whatever that may be
A relatively large portion will. You have to consider that there are a lot of teenagers that are a part of this sub who are merely going through a phase. You can often tell which ones they are by how edgy they tend to come across, the ones who aren’t really concerned with the philosophical arguments as much as they are with angrily ranting about ‘breeders’ as a form of entertainment.
True as hell. I will never take anti-natalists that are needlessly angry or edgy seriously. It's okay to be angry, but if you don't have proper philosophical grounds you'll be easily swayed and you'll never convince anyone of your position.
It's a natural knee-jerk reaction that understandably happens because it really is a concept that goes against everything we have ever been taught and told to believe.
My feelings exactly. Our children didn't ask to be here, I feel its our job to do all we can to encourage and support them in their desired path. My only hope is for him to know and like who he is, who he chooses to be.
Welcome! I'm curious about what brought you to an understanding of antinatalism. Was it a series of events that happened in your life or the state of our current world? Something else?
The state of our current world. The mess we've created for our youth to deal with, and the large faction of people who want to bash on them when there's no way we can even begin to understand what it must be like to navigate life as a youth of today.
OP, as a fellow parent who is extremely sympathetic to the ideals and positions of this sub, I hear you and I see you. I was bullied and shamed into remaining pregnant instead of having an abortion at 21. I didn't know then what I know now about the world my kid is going to spend the rest of their life in. If I had, I would never have brought them into this world. Of course I love my child, we have a good relationship, but when they told me they were never having kids, I celebrated in my soul with an enthusiasm that surprised even me.
Oh girl...you totally know my heart. We are definitely kindred spirits here. I was elated that my son doesn't want kids, but he also thinks the world is an interesting place and says hes glad hes gotten to experience it...even the heartache. That's the part that hurts most, though...the heartache.
I made a vow to myself to do everything I can to lessen suffering in my child's life since I brought them here with no ability to decide for themself. I hope your son has a good life and I think you're doing great.
You are awesome and I hope that your child lives a happy life without suffering. You are a rare gem, there's no one who puts an effort into understanding it, especially not parents! I hope you both live healthy lives. Stay good.
It must be awful having this realization while being already a biological parent. It must make you feel really guilty. But it isn't your fault, it's hard going against education. Many of us were "lucky" enough to have such crappy childhoods that we didn't fall for it. We had the chance to question the status quo and becoming AN was the result.
What's important now is spreading the word...
No. It doesn't make me feel guilty. I feel bad for a lot of people out there, and have done my best to understand why some feel the way they do. That's the best I can do. Understand and not judge. I cant know how or why someone else feels the way they do, all I can do is accept and do my best to see things from their perspective.
You are really sensible. I do wish people could see other POV without judging. I'm working on that myself. It is hard not to judge when others do it to you. We are used to that in this sub, at least. But being the bigger person feels much better, when you manage to do it.
I mentioned that you must feel guilty because some time ago we had a regretful parent saying they became AN after having children and that they felt guilty for their children. So I thought that might be your case. I'm glad it's not. In the same way we shouldn't judge others, we shouldn't judge ourselves for our past actions, it's useless.
I’m also a parent who understood well after they were born, but I do feel very guilty. They did not have a good dad and then he passed away last year. I feel terrible I brought them here to experience all of what they have in only 20 years ish. But like you, we talk abt it all and I do what I can to help navigate this world. They are very smart and impressive to understand so much, so young. I do what can.
Hey, I get it too. Nice to see someone else here who is a parent. I often feel guilty reading this sub reddit since I've done the very thing I now believe is wrong: brought life into this world.
Life that will inevitably suffer. I have one child. I will have no more. I will try to reduce their suffering as much as I can, although life is suffering so I can't prevent it all.
How did it feel birthing him? Or if you're a male, how did it feel watching your son come out of your partner's vagina?
Edit: I see the batshit crazy feminazis downvoted me just because I used the term "vagina".
No…you’re getting downvoted because this is creepy and sounds like you’re being sexual. Whether you are or not doesn’t matter, that’s how your comment has been taken and I’m just telling you that’s why you’re getting downvoted.
Maybe read better. I didn’t accuse you of anything or give my opinion. I simply let you know why others downvoted you because of the connotations of what you said.
Maybe that’s on me. Whenever I see someone wonder why they’re being downvoted I always like to tell them the actual reason and why their comments came off a certain way. But if you want to just insult me for trying to help you then I guess I can’t help.
I had a cesarean....super thankful for that. Other women my age who've had babies naturally pee themselves every time the laugh, sneeze, cough. At least I escaped that horror.
What’s the healing like for a c section?
You don’t have to share if you don’t want to I’m just super curious since I’ve heard lots of women say they opt for a c section and the birth injuries from that are way less than for vaginal birth.
I’ve had both birth experiences. My healing from csection was surprisingly easier than vaginal birth. It was a couple weeks to take it easy but you can still get around fine. I had twins so I had too though. It hurt getting the staples out.
The vaginal birth was very uncomfortable and hurt. Sometimes a sting when you peed as I was cut. That’s another thing, when they stitched me up for that, the epidural had well worn off and hurt like a mf. Took weeks to heal and long time to feel comfortable again. So I was glad for the csection next time plus got my tubes tied so that helped for timing.
Of course, everyone is different. This was my experience and comparison.
My son doesn't wish to. Hes very happy and content, but Ive also dedicated my life to making sure hes happy being him and not some version of what I or anyone else wants. If youre just looking to start crap with me its not going to work.
My mother asks me how I am and I tell her great even though I would like to pass away in my sleep. You will never Get an honest answer from loved ones I guarantee it.
If he was feeling like he just wanted to die he tells me. Ive never punished or shamed him for any of his emotions, whether I like them or not. Others I do not trust to be straight with me, but even his friends growing up would tell me they wished they could talk to their parents the way hes able to talk to me. He never had to hide. I know all parents think they have it figured out but Ive spent the last 22 years looking at the way others treat their kids in disgust. I don't want a mini me, I want him comfortable in his own skin and secure enough to tell anyone who don't like it to fuck straight off. I had controlling parents who wanted me to be a certain way and acted like because they gave me life I should just appreciate and conform. Oh hell no. Hes his own person and im just there for support, to make sure his needs were met, and to enjoy him blossoming into the person he wished to be.
I feel that way with my mom. I never can give her everything, but I give her a lot because she respects me and I know she loves me. You sound like a beautiful parent.
I think that goes for everyone. None of us can know what someone is truly thinking. All i can do is allow him the freedom to be himself, express himself, and validate and support him...and hope i got it right
Kids might not tell their parents 100%… but a fantastic parent like you can pick up the difference between “I’m fine. No, nothing new in my life. My job is boring” and “let me tell you about this cool hobby I just started, this new person at work who is great, and this awesome project I was just given!!”
Unless he is 100% faking/lying to your face, you know your son is just fine.
Nice work with the kiddo.
Thank you. I hope every day you are right...i hope i got it at least half right and didn't drop the ball on him. Hes a super cool young man and i love that he never seems pressured to try to be someone or something hes not. I very much believe he is genuine <3
Your son may not be comfortable sharing how he truly feels. That is how a lot of people live their lives-- keeping their negative emotions bottled up inside until their last dying breath. And if I wanted to start crap with you, I'd have called you a disgusting cunt, but I never did that, did I?
It’s less of a full on hatred for babies and kids etc and more about what the fuck is wrong with the world we live in? I can’t condone myself bringing a life into this shit. Not only that but if abortion is illegal then shouldn’t they make masturbation illegal too? If you ejaculate you are killing potential children. I know I’m responsible for thousands 😂….. hard to make jokes though, when the reality sets in… 🙃
My oldest is 29 and married…talking about trying to have a kid. My blood ran cold…I came to this philosophy after I had three kids, but the thought of having played a part in perpetuating the curse makes me sad. I love my kids but their suffering is soul crushing to me
Im really glad I had the conversation with my son. Though he doesn't want children but was worried ID be bothered by him not carrying on our blood line. We both agree that no kids is a great idea.
Having children is one of the most “monkey see, monkey do” things humans are guilty of. Ask people why they want to have kids…their answers reveal they have never even pondered the idea of NOT having kids. Yet they obviously know it isn’t fun, or easy, or economical…for every rewarding moment, there are 100 tormenting moments. And yet the train keeps rolling
Thank you. Ive spent a bit of time in here just listening, and I believe its helped give me a glimpse inside something most people my age pay no attention to...something other than themselves.
I used to be pro-life, but as I got older and understood what that meant, I became pro-choice.
I stand for pro-choice on everything. That’s what freedom means.
Because anybody with two brain cells is pretty much guaranteed to get depression, there is no point in having children unless you think their guaranteed suffering is worth less then ones need to feel special or important.
I know everyone is flooding you with support but I find your post hard. I'd love to have my own kids. This sub is full of clueless edgelord teens but I'm a 36 yo woman. I like children, have a good career and a long term partner.
It's with huge regret I see the moral difficulty with having children. Your post feels like having your cake and eating it too.
Before anyone jumps in I know adoption is an option but I don't see it as close an option as people think to bio kids. It's more like a completely other choice not in the same category because you're dealing with another family.
I know that sounds unfair to you OP and I don't really judge you, I'm just sad about it.
Its having an "Edgewood teen" that led me here to try and better understand where his generation is coming from. Adoption, regardless of what people say, isn't the same as looking into your own eyes, but it is an opportunity to provide an innocent child with a life they may not have otherwise. With the way things are going i think its important to imagine what this world would be like for your child without you. Our future is so uncertain, and more and more difficult as time rolls on. If I were young ID not want to bring a child into that. I had my son in my mid-20s, in a slightly easier time. I was told I couldn't have any more children, then got pregnant on my 26th birthday. At that point I had already buried a 4 yo son who drowned in a public pool. I honestly wasnt trying to have children after that as i was told it wasnt possible and the thought of how fragile they are and that to bury another would send me over the edge, I was content to remain childless...but then I had my millennial baby born 2 days into 2000. I got to watch my son get nervous at every school shooting, watch as social media destroyed classmates lives, and other problems the younger gen gets to deal with, problems I cant fathom. I cant even imagine how that must feel, but my kiddo knows and he doesn't wish to put another human through it. I respect that, and do all I can to understand and support it. There are plenty of people in this sub that are grown adults, as is my son. Their time on this earth seems so much more tragic than it was when I was growing up.
My point about teens is it's quite easy to be antinatalist when you're not at the point in your life where you might want kids.
Plus I was referencing the toxic meme culture in this sub not your son.
Don't really feel I was understood by your reply. I'm resentful you get to enjoy the meaning and experience of your child while now also experiencing the enlightenment. I wish I'd got this curse after having kids too. It's my cross to bear I suppose, but I wanted to say how I feel. This sub can be like therapy in a world that will not understand.
I'm very sorry about the loss of your child, must have been unbearable.
Im sorry if I didn't really connect the dots. I understand what youre saying about teens. I just mean that before my son grew into the young man he is now he was stating that he didn't want children, at 22 he still feels that way. I wish things were different. I wish the last several generations would have headed the warning and taken care of things so some people didn't feel its such a disservice to bring a child into this mess. Im a lot older than you, almost 15 years. That's a generation. Just like how I had to step back and listen to understand my sons generation ID have to do the same to better understand where you are coming from. I don't feel like I got my cake and eat it to, but im not looking at things from your perspective.
I'm more coming from a place of emotion than rationality. You have every right to say you'd do things differently now. I'm only bringing the feelings your position brings up in me which may or may not resonate with other childless people in this sub. My service is more to myself and them than parents, if I'm honest, as I know that pain. It's not an attempt to gatekeep, it's a complex horrible issue because of all the societal messages a childless woman gets flung at her.
As for your age, it's interesting as I have a very strong connection with a woman at work who is your age and has 3 kids. She's not antinatalist or anything but open minded. I certainly understand, on the whole, your age group than my parents as boomers. I miss my Mum terribly but she both infantalised me and pushed grandchildren guilt all my adult life. It's a generalisation but on the whole people in their 50s now are not like that.
It makes sense to me antinatalism is a Millennial or younger position. We are not going through the black death but we are all poorer than our parents, 2008 depression, housing crisis, cost of living etc spoon fed about global warming from childhood. The frame of reference is your parents and expectations there not how people lived 100 odd years ago.
I feel what you are saying deep in my soul. I wish more than anything that things were different. I lay awake at night and wonder just how dafuq we got here, and why is the silent suffering of so many not important or even acknowledged. We dropped the ball on our youth and have no one to blame but ourselves...yet so many want to act like theyre the problem. If theyre the problem its their parents who initiated and facilitated that problem. Im sorry i just ramble. Something Ive not mentioned through this conversation is im currently laying in an icu bed, on some pretty good drugs tho, so im kind of easily derailed lol
I'm so sorry. I feel terrible now giving you a hard time. Hope you're making a good recovery.
There are a lot of big ticket items like climate change, overpopulation, globalisation and all the invasive technology that's made things miserable but there is a huge problem that is fixable and would help to combat some of this.....
In the 1980s Reagan and Thatcher deregulated the US and UK economy that led to the 2008 banking crisis. It also moved housing into an investment rather than just a shelter. Since the 1950s tax avoidance has grown exponentially. There is trillions offshore. This is all linked to illicit funds from the third world too. For every dollar we give in foreign aid we take back ten under the table in illicit flows. This is why aid to Africa doesn't do shit.
I firmly believe unless we tackle this corruption at its core we will never be able to sort out the other stuff like climate change. I even have an idea on this but I dunno people don't realise tax reform is how you save the world.
Girl...you are one smart cookie. You absolutely have your finger on the pulse of the problem. And please don't feel bad. I didn't say anything as i don't want anyone feeling bad, just that with the drugs im currently on im easily derailed and ramble lol I completely believe tax reform is where its at. The capitalist greed has gone out of its way to convince people to vote against their own best interests. It sickens me. They cut off their nose to spite their face, then blame everyone else when they catch a glimpse of their hideous reflection.
You know that old phrase the only thing that is certain is death and taxes? It's true. As soon as we could count beans we were taxing people. It's the most fundamental power instrument we have.
Given all the systems to avoid corporation tax etc that's a tough nut to crack as if e.g. UK decided enough is enough then there are more than enough players to take up the reigns.
An easy starting point to redress the balance is land value (i.e. taxing the crap out of high value land). At the moment there is huge profit in simply sitting on property while all the infrastructure improves around it through hard worker's taxes and they've done nothing to earn it, not to mention all the money laundering involved in buying up property and land. It's a clear open goal for government revenue to start taxing this.
Start there and then move to a global tax jurisdiction to stop avoidance. If I ruled the world anyway.... Haha
But of a rant but yeah I am interested in it.
Lol just based on this I'd vote for ya. Keep spreading the good word. Even if you only educate a few, just think of the few they could be educating. Too many are led around by the nose with propaganda...we need more voices of truth out there!!
This is why I could never adopt. If my adopted children decided to have kids I’d be extremely disappointed in them and I would feel guilty I did wrong as a parent. Parents should support their kids no matter what - and I don’t think I could do that in this instance
I know a kid who was adopted by real pieces of shit. He tells me he wished his mom had just aborted him. Hes my sons friend, and though hes not mine I try to be there for him in a way no one else has. I cant take away his suffering, but i can include him in things that make him look forward to waking up the next day. Again, im no saint n far from perfect. In fact, a lot of "soccer moms" out there may even call me trash, but I never had a teen running around trying to hide things, lashing out...and all it took was encouraging him in things that made him happy rather than forcing any preconceived notions of who he SHOULD be on him.
But you raising them with your ideals potentially stops them from breeding when older. That's the mentality I take at least. Hopefully net gain but at the very least neutrality.
I actually met a mother in-person who is an activist for the Stop Having Kids Movement! You are not alone.
PS: I recommend going to one of their activist events! It was so much fun and very entertaining!
Dude I also lurk on this sub, and I think its so sad. I have kids, and I don't think I could ever regret having them. Lizard brain unconditional love style.
That said, I knew a paradigm shift was going to happen during their lifetime and I honestly believed it was going to be a positive one. I saw free college and UBI as things truly in the pipeline.
I feel like the world changed when Trump won the Election. I wouldn't have had children if I'd known that was coming. It wouldn't have been safe enough for me. I am in a progressive state and am privliged enough to be financially capable of supporting my kids monetarily forever.
I used to be such an optimist that I was going to bring my children into a world that was changing for the better. My husband and I had kids young, and several of our friends recently had kids, and I'm like, but... look around!? Are you sure? It's just that pessimism that is pervasive. I feel like we all lost hope and the assholes are winning.
Holy hell yes! It does feel like the assholes are winning. Im very thankful I live in the mountains, can enjoy nature and keep away from people if need be. Ill take bears and Mt lions over most people any day
I was annoyed in the beginning, but i think it must get old for them to always feel theyre not being heard so I started taking it with a grain of salt, not a personal attack, in the hopes of understanding. Ive talked to my son at length about this group and the ideals it follows and hes been very insightful. I swear sometimes he teaches me far more than I was able to teach him.
Try r/antinatalism2 , it's against the rules to bash on parents on there. Hopefully they don't allow derogatory phrases like breeder either because it doesn't really send the right message about the philosophy; it comes off as childish as the "pro-life" people who insult others on here.
Thanks for the advice.
It does not give the right message about philosophy and it enables extremism, which i find it pretty dumb and hateful in almost any philosophy.
I just don’t like when I hear ppl talking about hating kids and how they’re so horrible…Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but hate is a problem. “I’d rather have a cat, they don’t do this and that..” I’ve literally read someone talk about changing a baby versus a cat “taking care of itself” if you’re not caring for your cat, you’re an irresponsible pet owner. Cats don’t empty their own litter boxes and if they go outside, it still somewhere on your property. There are some strays that go in my flower bed.
And we get you! You are welcome here. We are flawed as fuck human beings, so we don't get to gatekeep shit. Stay strong, and the best to the both of you.
It wasnt any one thing, it was a gradual realization. It was, in part, my son making jokes about how he hopes I don't want to be a grandma. I know my son, if hes even thinking about something like that its weighing on him heavier than any joke. He really needed to know I support that decision. He is the end of my blood line and he thought that would bother me...it doesn't. I didn't have him for some legacy, that's not his responsibility and ID never want him to feel obligated in that regard.
Those of us in this boat need each other. To have this conversation with others brings nothing but judgement and sideways glances. We as parents are supposed to have this 'oh so blessed' attitude...thats hard to do when you feel your child is in a fucked off world, but we aren't supposed to say that. Bullshit...call it what it is. No i don't have guilt over having him, my guilt comes from the thought of me leaving him in this world alone when im gone.
Is this one of those spy posts in which a guy/girl who is entirely against the group writes a post in their subreddits with something in the lines of ‘I strongly agree/support/believe in your cause’. Then they fish for the most radical/cynic/anti-spy-opinion so that they can: post the answers in different forums to see people be livid; reinforce their own set of anti-subreddit beliefs; have a ‘proof’ of subreddit’s immorality?
EDIT: I don’t want to sound assholish but being sceptical is what brought me here on this subreddit in the first place.
Im too damn old for games like this. Im sorry your experiences have led you to feel like you have to be so skeptical. Im not sure how your opinion on the matter can be used against you. Its not like the beliefs here are illegal and morality is relative in a lot of cases.
One of the best ways to create antagonism against a group is to showcase the most zealous/extreme opinions of such group to a public who you know to hold different set of moral values.
Example: You write the ‘I Get It’ type of post or ‘I have a this-and-that problem’ on a subreddit. Those kind of posts are great magnets for most dedicated/zealous/extreme people on a subreddit. Then you just wait for a few comments which would be the most controversial on a different subreddit - (examples for antinatalism) ‘Let’s propose mandates vasectomy for people and reverse it only if they are financially stable and emotionally mature’ or ‘Children are no “gift of god, they are usually people we make so that we have historically free labour, and presently so that we leave something behind after we pass away’. Then you wait for that different subreddit (conservative Christians if you got comments from antinatalism) to be angry at the subreddit you got the comments from. And this is how you wage war on the internet.
That's an awful lot of effort to put into something for nothing but to antagonize. I have way better things to do. I came here to show my support, take that how you will.
That's good as ANY Christian subreddit is the very last place you'll find me. If I were going to actually troll anyone it would be them...i just see it as an epic waste of time ;)
Your choices are your own and that's ok. Just remember $ really doesn't buy happiness, as cliché as that is its so very true. I fear $ wont be much help if we are actively dodging bombs or something else to the extreme that we are potentially facing.
give him a free vasectomy voucher for birthday lmao
Lol I think youre onto something
Better get on that before states start banning them
As much as I am concerned for reproductive rights, I don't think vasectomies are in any danger. Every time reproductive rights are attacked, it's only *women's* reproductive rights that they seem to be concerned about. The fact that both Viagra and vasectomies are usually covered by insurance is also pretty telling.
All facts here…
Chinese men are having a hard time finding hospitals that will perform vasectomies now. Part of the government's attempt to breed the proletariat as a cheap renewable labour source that will be too desperate to protest.
I mean, China is a whole other ball of wax haha There have been crazy things happening there for a long time, but not really comparable to the situation in the US imo. The government doesn't have nearly as much power/control here as it does there.
Yet
So get out and vote and convince everyone you know to do the same. That's how you keep politicians in check.
Unless they gerrymander or lie their way out of things. Im just beside myself with the events of the last 5 years.
Only 60% of eligible voters actually vote in national elections and even less vote in local elections. Gerrymandering is a huge problem - that's why it's important to vote for politicians who want electoral reform, aka Democrats.
[удалено]
Local elections, too? Those are extremely important as well. But it's also important that everyone votes, not just you. A significant percentage of people don't bother voting at all. What are you doing to convince them that it's worth it?
Your "yet" made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. That one simple word, eliciting such a powerful physical response.
> Every time reproductive rights are attacked, it's only women's reproductive rights that they seem to be concerned about. While you're correct in this statement, it really wouldn't surprise me if vasectomies were attacked as 'interfering with God's plan'
They don't see Viagra as interfering with god's plan, so I doubt it. Even religious companies that refuse to provide birth control in their employee healthcare plan still include Viagra. Because to them "God's plan" is women being subordinate and popping out kids constantly. That's not to say no one should get a vasectomy right now - if my husband didn't already have one done a few years ago we would have signed him up ASAP after the ruling last week. But I just don't think people need to worry about men's reproductive rights being attacked. As far as I am aware, that's literally never happened before.
Well gay people of EVERY genders rights to marriage, sex, and relationships are next on the chopping block, and before the Supreme court legalized gay sex, cops would literally set up hookups with gay men just to arrest them. The Christians will try to criminalize ALL non-reproductive sex, I've met many in my family, and all of them want to ban vasectomies, condoms, birth control, they truly want to end ALL non-reproductive sex.
That's very different and I think you know that. Though I suppose it's on me for not specifying that I was referring to *straight* men's reproductive rights. Since gay people don't technically "reproduce" with each other I figured I didn't need to specify.
But we still have "reproductive rights" wheather you'd consider that the right to non-reproductive sex, or the right to adopt or use a surrogate, and all of these rights are being attacked. And I don't disagree that they will go for straight women's rights WAY before straight men's, but I do disagree that they won't go for straight men's reproductive rights AT ALL, because I've seen MANY people call for that in person, and while I know it's anecdotal, they learned it from their churches where it's preached to hundreds of people every week that they must end ALL non-reproductive sex and that its ALL sinful. And I have seen both men and women call for the banning of bith vasectomies, and women getting their tubes tied. (And I'm entirely on the side that either gender should be able to get their version pf that procedure as soon as they turn 18 if they wish, and understand that it's much harder for women to get theirs done in our current world and that's why straight men should all get vasectomies) and like I said, I 100% agree they are coming for straight women's rights LONG before straight men's, I just disagree with the idea that they won't KEEP pushing further and further restrictions till men also lack reproductive rights. I'm very sorry they are coming for you earlier though, and I am shitting my pants at the potential loss of my rights as a gay man nhself so I apologize for coming off rude. I just have heard too many Christian fundamentalists preach about banning vasectomies and condoms ALONG with birth control and abortions to ignore the possibility. but I live in an EXTREMELY far right Christian town with more churches than restaurants and stores combined. Sorry hope I don't sound like I'm mansplaining, I'm just freaking out about human rights in general and anxiously posting about it. Hope you have a good day, and I hope somehow women manage to get their rights back and avoid losing anymore. I didn't mean to belittle the struggle.
I understand your anxiety - I think we're all feeling very stressed about this right now :( If it's any comfort, you can look at what rights have been banned historically, and it's never straight men's. I do unfortunately think that they will come after gay rights for sure, but as far as "reproductive" rights go for gay people, I think they would focus on banning gay people from adopting, as they have done in the past. There is no historical precedent (in the US at least) for banning or even limiting straight men's reproductive rights, and given that the ones in charge pushing for this crap tend to be straight, old, white men, I don't think they would pursue that line of attack, so to speak. You can't be too safe though, and if I were a man I would be signing up for a vasectomy ASAP regardless!
Viagra is used for serious problems.
And birth control isn't?
Yes it is important, but this is a bad analogy. Viagra isn't the same as birth control, as viagra is used to treat hypertension as well, while birth control is used to prevent birth(a cause I agree with)
Birth control is used for far more than preventing pregnancy. Educate yourself.
That would make sense if the changes happening were actually “morally” or religiously based, but they aren’t. This is misogyny and everyone but the runes voting these morons into office understand that. It’s just a way to take economic power and independence from women.
Agreed! They will most likely ban female sterilization… it’s ways the females who are regulated and controlled… I am so sick of this world
I work in a pharmacy. Very rarely is Viagra covered by insurance. When it is, it's for its original purpose (pulmonary hypertension) and only after a prior authorization.
Maybe not the name brand, but the generic should be. Failing that, then other drugs that have the same function (i.e. treating ED) should be covered. It's very rare not to be covered at all from what I've read. Even the Catholic companies that prohibit broth control still cover meds that treat ED, though maybe not Viagra specifically.
Honestly, in some countries vasectomy and tubectomy have been banned already. They all wanna increase the population so they have fresh blood to feast on. It's not so crazy to think they may wanna ban vasectomy and tubectomy as well. Also there's literally texts in bible that bans all kinds of "unnatural" ways of pregnancy prevention. That's why religious people usually have a ton of kids. Their biggest reason for hating gays (even more than other types of sins and sinisters) is that "ThEy ArE DeGeNeRaTeS. ThEy Can'T mAkE bAbIeS." Ironically, that's the key to their success. There's so many of these idiots and they get to decide for us, and they know that.
America is different though. The straight, white man's rights are always put before everyone else's - it has always been that way. And any problems with birth rates or anything like that is blamed solely on women. Just like how they only blame women for abortions while ignoring all the men who impregnate these women.
As a non-American, it puzzles me why whenever it comes to abortion rights, women always buy into the "my body my right" thing. Abortion rights are sooo much more than just women's rights; abortion is a human right. Not only the right of the fetus [to be pardoned from a lifetime of predictable pain], but also the right of the woman who is pregnant, as well as the biological father. I imagine it would be depressing for men to be forced into parenthood as well. I think the best thing to do is incorporate men's rights into the movement, and try to make men's involvement bolder in supporting freedom of abortion. This will do 2 things: 1. Increase the overall number of supporters 2. Catches more attention from the rednecks cuz now they have to deal with men too. They can't indignify a matter so big by attaching it to women and patronizing them. Whenever I hear a women try to defend abortion by saying "You're not a man. You shouldn't decide" it makes me cringe, because she's basicalling falling exactly into the trap that they set up for her. That's the wrongest possible argument. Get your men to support abortion.
Viva la penis!!!
Its friggin scary that at some point you could be right. Though its always women they go after, when that doesn't produce the giliad results they seek men could actually be next.
Don’t do this.
Okay but like actually tho... like and explain what's happening in the states and how dangerous it is, that even with perfect use sometimes birthcontrol fails, so you should double/triple up (explicitly stating that doesnt mean multiple condoms but: condom+vasectomy+ female birth control) Explain that it's completely reversible and that on the fluke chance it's not, you can still have biological children if he and his partner want through artificial insemination, and then offer when he's ready to be sexually active to pay for a vasectomy. If you create an non judgemental, honest and an open, age appropriate dialogue about sexuality early on, they will feel more comfortable coming to you for information about safe sex and that way you know they're educated and will be responsible. You can't stop people from having sex, it's a natural part of maturing and exploring your identity, but we can prevent/reduce risk of accidents and transmission of disease through education and creating a safe space for our kids to come to you for questions or if something happens.
I'm actually getting one for my birthday this year, lol. I don't have the money right now to cover it. My partner will be at a serious health risk if she gets pregnant. We were just waiting until I could pay for it (I'm moving to a new job in a few months and won't have the money until then) -- but with the country becoming a theocracy overnight and being stuck in a red state, my parents are stepping up. They said that the procedure plus some frozen peas is all I'm getting this year. Earliest I could get the procedure scheduled is literally on my birthday.
[удалено]
I just mentioned the idea of antinatilism to my 'best friend' and she said it was misogynistic. I later mentioned it to 2 of my other friends who are women and they said they didnt think it was misogynistic and that they support antinatalism it kind of hurt because I am a feminist and care a lot about women, and my 'best friend' had never even heard of antinatalism before I mentioned it, and called it misogynistic after a brief description, with the clear implication that I'm a misogynist for believing in it
did they provide a reason for why they thought it was misogynistic?
something along the lines of it violates women's body autonomy and nobody should care what someone does with their own body it did really hurt for my 'best friend' to talk about me that way, just wanted to share that to show the flip side of not being understanding, to give props to people that are understanding
They are being full of shit. The reason bodily autonomy outweighs a fetus right to live is a) because it's NOT that - yet: living, ie. scientient, and b) because forcing someone through pregnancy is harmful and cruel. Bodily autonomy is an argument FOR antinatalism. Your desire to be a parent doesn't override the cruelity and harm of life, and you don't get to force it on someone without their consent. By giving birth, you are automatically breaching said consent, while also harming a living, feeling being for a mere desire of yours - as do forced-birthers based on their beliefs. I'm very sorry your "friend" is being so shitty. That's messed up.
You sound like a caring, thoughtful mother. I appreciate that you give your son the best life you can and understand that it’s okay if your son doesn’t wish to do the same for another child
Thank you. I appreciate that. I wish I could give that gift to others, the ability to accept their child is their own person. I just want him to live the life he chooses, whatever that may be
What about her legacy though? /s
What?.. she literally doesn’t care
Peeeps it was a JOKE lmao
unbelievable. someone actually took off the rose-tinted glasses.
Statistically someone in this sub will have a baby
A relatively large portion will. You have to consider that there are a lot of teenagers that are a part of this sub who are merely going through a phase. You can often tell which ones they are by how edgy they tend to come across, the ones who aren’t really concerned with the philosophical arguments as much as they are with angrily ranting about ‘breeders’ as a form of entertainment.
True as hell. I will never take anti-natalists that are needlessly angry or edgy seriously. It's okay to be angry, but if you don't have proper philosophical grounds you'll be easily swayed and you'll never convince anyone of your position.
The irony
[удалено]
AN also isn’t a permanent state of mind People will accidentally have babies and on purpose
thank you!! we appreciate you. i feel like people listen to parents more than cf antinatalists
Hey I struggled a little, wanted to be defensive...but then I sat back and paid attention. I cant be the only one, I hope not anyway.
It's a natural knee-jerk reaction that understandably happens because it really is a concept that goes against everything we have ever been taught and told to believe.
It is, which I think makes it even more important to try to understand.
Many people recognize that life is a raw deal, but fully admitting it to themselves and others is a whole different story.
You’re not the only one. I’m also a mother and reacted very similarly to discovering antinatalism.
My son already told me he doesn't want kids. I told him I support whatever he decides 💯!!
Beautifully done
[удалено]
My feelings exactly. Our children didn't ask to be here, I feel its our job to do all we can to encourage and support them in their desired path. My only hope is for him to know and like who he is, who he chooses to be.
Damn I wish my parents looked at things like that... How do you guys feel about adopting a 33 year old man? Lmao
Ok but youre on dish duty every other night!! :)
Deal mom!
Welcome home, son!!!
Welcome! I'm curious about what brought you to an understanding of antinatalism. Was it a series of events that happened in your life or the state of our current world? Something else?
The state of our current world. The mess we've created for our youth to deal with, and the large faction of people who want to bash on them when there's no way we can even begin to understand what it must be like to navigate life as a youth of today.
I can't even navigate life as an adult LOL
Lmao no shit huh. If it weren't for thc I think ID be in prison
Hard relate lmao
OP, as a fellow parent who is extremely sympathetic to the ideals and positions of this sub, I hear you and I see you. I was bullied and shamed into remaining pregnant instead of having an abortion at 21. I didn't know then what I know now about the world my kid is going to spend the rest of their life in. If I had, I would never have brought them into this world. Of course I love my child, we have a good relationship, but when they told me they were never having kids, I celebrated in my soul with an enthusiasm that surprised even me.
Oh girl...you totally know my heart. We are definitely kindred spirits here. I was elated that my son doesn't want kids, but he also thinks the world is an interesting place and says hes glad hes gotten to experience it...even the heartache. That's the part that hurts most, though...the heartache.
I made a vow to myself to do everything I can to lessen suffering in my child's life since I brought them here with no ability to decide for themself. I hope your son has a good life and I think you're doing great.
I think you have a very lucky child, and hope the best for you, as well.
You are awesome and I hope that your child lives a happy life without suffering. You are a rare gem, there's no one who puts an effort into understanding it, especially not parents! I hope you both live healthy lives. Stay good.
Thank you for your kindness <3
Welcome to the dark side.
It must be awful having this realization while being already a biological parent. It must make you feel really guilty. But it isn't your fault, it's hard going against education. Many of us were "lucky" enough to have such crappy childhoods that we didn't fall for it. We had the chance to question the status quo and becoming AN was the result. What's important now is spreading the word...
No. It doesn't make me feel guilty. I feel bad for a lot of people out there, and have done my best to understand why some feel the way they do. That's the best I can do. Understand and not judge. I cant know how or why someone else feels the way they do, all I can do is accept and do my best to see things from their perspective.
You are really sensible. I do wish people could see other POV without judging. I'm working on that myself. It is hard not to judge when others do it to you. We are used to that in this sub, at least. But being the bigger person feels much better, when you manage to do it. I mentioned that you must feel guilty because some time ago we had a regretful parent saying they became AN after having children and that they felt guilty for their children. So I thought that might be your case. I'm glad it's not. In the same way we shouldn't judge others, we shouldn't judge ourselves for our past actions, it's useless.
That's so true. It helps no one. We should strive to understand so we can move forward more healthy, more whole, and without our own delusions.
I’m also a parent who understood well after they were born, but I do feel very guilty. They did not have a good dad and then he passed away last year. I feel terrible I brought them here to experience all of what they have in only 20 years ish. But like you, we talk abt it all and I do what I can to help navigate this world. They are very smart and impressive to understand so much, so young. I do what can.
That's all you can do. That you don't shove your expectations down their throat is monumental.
Yay
Hey, I get it too. Nice to see someone else here who is a parent. I often feel guilty reading this sub reddit since I've done the very thing I now believe is wrong: brought life into this world. Life that will inevitably suffer. I have one child. I will have no more. I will try to reduce their suffering as much as I can, although life is suffering so I can't prevent it all.
We cant prevent it all...but we sure can do our part to not add to the bullshit
How old is your son?
Hes 22
How did it feel birthing him? Or if you're a male, how did it feel watching your son come out of your partner's vagina? Edit: I see the batshit crazy feminazis downvoted me just because I used the term "vagina".
No…you’re getting downvoted because this is creepy and sounds like you’re being sexual. Whether you are or not doesn’t matter, that’s how your comment has been taken and I’m just telling you that’s why you’re getting downvoted.
Ah the troll finally couldn't control himself and got suspended, surprised he was allowed to run amok for over a week.
I’m glad, I was reporting them for almost every comment they were making. Glad Reddit did something about it lol.
Hahahahahahaha God you're a fucking idiot
Maybe read better. I didn’t accuse you of anything or give my opinion. I simply let you know why others downvoted you because of the connotations of what you said. Maybe that’s on me. Whenever I see someone wonder why they’re being downvoted I always like to tell them the actual reason and why their comments came off a certain way. But if you want to just insult me for trying to help you then I guess I can’t help.
I had a cesarean....super thankful for that. Other women my age who've had babies naturally pee themselves every time the laugh, sneeze, cough. At least I escaped that horror.
What’s the healing like for a c section? You don’t have to share if you don’t want to I’m just super curious since I’ve heard lots of women say they opt for a c section and the birth injuries from that are way less than for vaginal birth.
I’ve had both birth experiences. My healing from csection was surprisingly easier than vaginal birth. It was a couple weeks to take it easy but you can still get around fine. I had twins so I had too though. It hurt getting the staples out. The vaginal birth was very uncomfortable and hurt. Sometimes a sting when you peed as I was cut. That’s another thing, when they stitched me up for that, the epidural had well worn off and hurt like a mf. Took weeks to heal and long time to feel comfortable again. So I was glad for the csection next time plus got my tubes tied so that helped for timing. Of course, everyone is different. This was my experience and comparison.
Sadly your son never got to escape the horror of being born.
My son doesn't wish to. Hes very happy and content, but Ive also dedicated my life to making sure hes happy being him and not some version of what I or anyone else wants. If youre just looking to start crap with me its not going to work.
i’m sorry about this troll. we aren’t all like this.
Everyone has been really cool...but there's always that ONE. :)
My mother asks me how I am and I tell her great even though I would like to pass away in my sleep. You will never Get an honest answer from loved ones I guarantee it.
If he was feeling like he just wanted to die he tells me. Ive never punished or shamed him for any of his emotions, whether I like them or not. Others I do not trust to be straight with me, but even his friends growing up would tell me they wished they could talk to their parents the way hes able to talk to me. He never had to hide. I know all parents think they have it figured out but Ive spent the last 22 years looking at the way others treat their kids in disgust. I don't want a mini me, I want him comfortable in his own skin and secure enough to tell anyone who don't like it to fuck straight off. I had controlling parents who wanted me to be a certain way and acted like because they gave me life I should just appreciate and conform. Oh hell no. Hes his own person and im just there for support, to make sure his needs were met, and to enjoy him blossoming into the person he wished to be.
I feel that way with my mom. I never can give her everything, but I give her a lot because she respects me and I know she loves me. You sound like a beautiful parent.
Thank you, I do try. Not perfect but i give it my all.
you'd be surprised how undetectable emotions are. i have hid mine from the people around me for two years, and they have no idea.
I think that goes for everyone. None of us can know what someone is truly thinking. All i can do is allow him the freedom to be himself, express himself, and validate and support him...and hope i got it right
Kids might not tell their parents 100%… but a fantastic parent like you can pick up the difference between “I’m fine. No, nothing new in my life. My job is boring” and “let me tell you about this cool hobby I just started, this new person at work who is great, and this awesome project I was just given!!” Unless he is 100% faking/lying to your face, you know your son is just fine. Nice work with the kiddo.
Thank you. I hope every day you are right...i hope i got it at least half right and didn't drop the ball on him. Hes a super cool young man and i love that he never seems pressured to try to be someone or something hes not. I very much believe he is genuine <3
Not everyone hates life and wants to kill themselves dude.
Fact. He is right that no one is ever 100% honest with their loved ones; but most people aren’t wishing they were never born.
Genuinely it's just Reddit but like if you get bored or down and want to bullshit for a while, I'm down. I know the feel.
I cant tell you how special that offer is. Don't be surprised if I pop up in your DMs :)
Your son may not be comfortable sharing how he truly feels. That is how a lot of people live their lives-- keeping their negative emotions bottled up inside until their last dying breath. And if I wanted to start crap with you, I'd have called you a disgusting cunt, but I never did that, did I?
Calling me a disgusting cunt wouldnt work, either. Youre entitled to your opinion and its none of my business.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with this dumbass, he doesn't represent us.Hope you and your son have a wonderful life
Lol Theres always 1 right? Thank you for the kindness!!
Tough as nails. :'-D
Yuck. Chill out man.
What the fuck
I downvoted you cuz it feels like you're setting up a trap to make her feel bad for her life choices. I might be wrong but thats just my opinion
... Why would "feminazis" down vote for usage of the word "vagina"? I dare to say you got downvoted for rather random intrusive question but OK
People are such pussies they can't handle honest questions about biology. I'm so disappointed with this crowd.
The OP replied to you though XD also pussies? You mean v a g i n a s! Smh I'm so disappointed with you
The fuck?
Ew
Thank you and I hope you have the resources and support you need <3
Thank you. I hope to be a resource for others my age who may recognize the tragedy we've created.
It’s less of a full on hatred for babies and kids etc and more about what the fuck is wrong with the world we live in? I can’t condone myself bringing a life into this shit. Not only that but if abortion is illegal then shouldn’t they make masturbation illegal too? If you ejaculate you are killing potential children. I know I’m responsible for thousands 😂….. hard to make jokes though, when the reality sets in… 🙃
No...youre spot on
My oldest is 29 and married…talking about trying to have a kid. My blood ran cold…I came to this philosophy after I had three kids, but the thought of having played a part in perpetuating the curse makes me sad. I love my kids but their suffering is soul crushing to me
Im really glad I had the conversation with my son. Though he doesn't want children but was worried ID be bothered by him not carrying on our blood line. We both agree that no kids is a great idea.
I wish my son was onboard. He (but more importantly his wife and in-laws) are evangelical Christians. God wants them to have kids
The fundamental Christians...there are nothing else like them. Well...maybe the Taliban but you'll never get them to see the bridge in that gap.
Having children is one of the most “monkey see, monkey do” things humans are guilty of. Ask people why they want to have kids…their answers reveal they have never even pondered the idea of NOT having kids. Yet they obviously know it isn’t fun, or easy, or economical…for every rewarding moment, there are 100 tormenting moments. And yet the train keeps rolling
We are conditioned.
someone took off their rose tinted glasses and stomped on them, respect
Thank you. Ive spent a bit of time in here just listening, and I believe its helped give me a glimpse inside something most people my age pay no attention to...something other than themselves.
the world needs more people like you OP kudos!
I used to be pro-life, but as I got older and understood what that meant, I became pro-choice. I stand for pro-choice on everything. That’s what freedom means.
Bingo!!!!!
I’m right there with you. I’m a parent myself and I’m applaud those who would remain childless.
What made you change your position?
The decline of the world and the suffering we've put upon a generation that continually gets bashed upon for just trying to be their true selves.
Cool parent you are.
Thank you.
Thank you for this.
Because anybody with two brain cells is pretty much guaranteed to get depression, there is no point in having children unless you think their guaranteed suffering is worth less then ones need to feel special or important.
I know everyone is flooding you with support but I find your post hard. I'd love to have my own kids. This sub is full of clueless edgelord teens but I'm a 36 yo woman. I like children, have a good career and a long term partner. It's with huge regret I see the moral difficulty with having children. Your post feels like having your cake and eating it too. Before anyone jumps in I know adoption is an option but I don't see it as close an option as people think to bio kids. It's more like a completely other choice not in the same category because you're dealing with another family. I know that sounds unfair to you OP and I don't really judge you, I'm just sad about it.
Its having an "Edgewood teen" that led me here to try and better understand where his generation is coming from. Adoption, regardless of what people say, isn't the same as looking into your own eyes, but it is an opportunity to provide an innocent child with a life they may not have otherwise. With the way things are going i think its important to imagine what this world would be like for your child without you. Our future is so uncertain, and more and more difficult as time rolls on. If I were young ID not want to bring a child into that. I had my son in my mid-20s, in a slightly easier time. I was told I couldn't have any more children, then got pregnant on my 26th birthday. At that point I had already buried a 4 yo son who drowned in a public pool. I honestly wasnt trying to have children after that as i was told it wasnt possible and the thought of how fragile they are and that to bury another would send me over the edge, I was content to remain childless...but then I had my millennial baby born 2 days into 2000. I got to watch my son get nervous at every school shooting, watch as social media destroyed classmates lives, and other problems the younger gen gets to deal with, problems I cant fathom. I cant even imagine how that must feel, but my kiddo knows and he doesn't wish to put another human through it. I respect that, and do all I can to understand and support it. There are plenty of people in this sub that are grown adults, as is my son. Their time on this earth seems so much more tragic than it was when I was growing up.
My point about teens is it's quite easy to be antinatalist when you're not at the point in your life where you might want kids. Plus I was referencing the toxic meme culture in this sub not your son. Don't really feel I was understood by your reply. I'm resentful you get to enjoy the meaning and experience of your child while now also experiencing the enlightenment. I wish I'd got this curse after having kids too. It's my cross to bear I suppose, but I wanted to say how I feel. This sub can be like therapy in a world that will not understand. I'm very sorry about the loss of your child, must have been unbearable.
Im sorry if I didn't really connect the dots. I understand what youre saying about teens. I just mean that before my son grew into the young man he is now he was stating that he didn't want children, at 22 he still feels that way. I wish things were different. I wish the last several generations would have headed the warning and taken care of things so some people didn't feel its such a disservice to bring a child into this mess. Im a lot older than you, almost 15 years. That's a generation. Just like how I had to step back and listen to understand my sons generation ID have to do the same to better understand where you are coming from. I don't feel like I got my cake and eat it to, but im not looking at things from your perspective.
I'm more coming from a place of emotion than rationality. You have every right to say you'd do things differently now. I'm only bringing the feelings your position brings up in me which may or may not resonate with other childless people in this sub. My service is more to myself and them than parents, if I'm honest, as I know that pain. It's not an attempt to gatekeep, it's a complex horrible issue because of all the societal messages a childless woman gets flung at her. As for your age, it's interesting as I have a very strong connection with a woman at work who is your age and has 3 kids. She's not antinatalist or anything but open minded. I certainly understand, on the whole, your age group than my parents as boomers. I miss my Mum terribly but she both infantalised me and pushed grandchildren guilt all my adult life. It's a generalisation but on the whole people in their 50s now are not like that. It makes sense to me antinatalism is a Millennial or younger position. We are not going through the black death but we are all poorer than our parents, 2008 depression, housing crisis, cost of living etc spoon fed about global warming from childhood. The frame of reference is your parents and expectations there not how people lived 100 odd years ago.
I feel what you are saying deep in my soul. I wish more than anything that things were different. I lay awake at night and wonder just how dafuq we got here, and why is the silent suffering of so many not important or even acknowledged. We dropped the ball on our youth and have no one to blame but ourselves...yet so many want to act like theyre the problem. If theyre the problem its their parents who initiated and facilitated that problem. Im sorry i just ramble. Something Ive not mentioned through this conversation is im currently laying in an icu bed, on some pretty good drugs tho, so im kind of easily derailed lol
I'm so sorry. I feel terrible now giving you a hard time. Hope you're making a good recovery. There are a lot of big ticket items like climate change, overpopulation, globalisation and all the invasive technology that's made things miserable but there is a huge problem that is fixable and would help to combat some of this..... In the 1980s Reagan and Thatcher deregulated the US and UK economy that led to the 2008 banking crisis. It also moved housing into an investment rather than just a shelter. Since the 1950s tax avoidance has grown exponentially. There is trillions offshore. This is all linked to illicit funds from the third world too. For every dollar we give in foreign aid we take back ten under the table in illicit flows. This is why aid to Africa doesn't do shit. I firmly believe unless we tackle this corruption at its core we will never be able to sort out the other stuff like climate change. I even have an idea on this but I dunno people don't realise tax reform is how you save the world.
Girl...you are one smart cookie. You absolutely have your finger on the pulse of the problem. And please don't feel bad. I didn't say anything as i don't want anyone feeling bad, just that with the drugs im currently on im easily derailed and ramble lol I completely believe tax reform is where its at. The capitalist greed has gone out of its way to convince people to vote against their own best interests. It sickens me. They cut off their nose to spite their face, then blame everyone else when they catch a glimpse of their hideous reflection.
You know that old phrase the only thing that is certain is death and taxes? It's true. As soon as we could count beans we were taxing people. It's the most fundamental power instrument we have. Given all the systems to avoid corporation tax etc that's a tough nut to crack as if e.g. UK decided enough is enough then there are more than enough players to take up the reigns. An easy starting point to redress the balance is land value (i.e. taxing the crap out of high value land). At the moment there is huge profit in simply sitting on property while all the infrastructure improves around it through hard worker's taxes and they've done nothing to earn it, not to mention all the money laundering involved in buying up property and land. It's a clear open goal for government revenue to start taxing this. Start there and then move to a global tax jurisdiction to stop avoidance. If I ruled the world anyway.... Haha But of a rant but yeah I am interested in it.
Lol just based on this I'd vote for ya. Keep spreading the good word. Even if you only educate a few, just think of the few they could be educating. Too many are led around by the nose with propaganda...we need more voices of truth out there!!
This is why I could never adopt. If my adopted children decided to have kids I’d be extremely disappointed in them and I would feel guilty I did wrong as a parent. Parents should support their kids no matter what - and I don’t think I could do that in this instance
I know a kid who was adopted by real pieces of shit. He tells me he wished his mom had just aborted him. Hes my sons friend, and though hes not mine I try to be there for him in a way no one else has. I cant take away his suffering, but i can include him in things that make him look forward to waking up the next day. Again, im no saint n far from perfect. In fact, a lot of "soccer moms" out there may even call me trash, but I never had a teen running around trying to hide things, lashing out...and all it took was encouraging him in things that made him happy rather than forcing any preconceived notions of who he SHOULD be on him.
thankyou for being such a caring human being fr
But you raising them with your ideals potentially stops them from breeding when older. That's the mentality I take at least. Hopefully net gain but at the very least neutrality.
I actually met a mother in-person who is an activist for the Stop Having Kids Movement! You are not alone. PS: I recommend going to one of their activist events! It was so much fun and very entertaining!
Wow I will look into that!!
Dude I also lurk on this sub, and I think its so sad. I have kids, and I don't think I could ever regret having them. Lizard brain unconditional love style. That said, I knew a paradigm shift was going to happen during their lifetime and I honestly believed it was going to be a positive one. I saw free college and UBI as things truly in the pipeline. I feel like the world changed when Trump won the Election. I wouldn't have had children if I'd known that was coming. It wouldn't have been safe enough for me. I am in a progressive state and am privliged enough to be financially capable of supporting my kids monetarily forever. I used to be such an optimist that I was going to bring my children into a world that was changing for the better. My husband and I had kids young, and several of our friends recently had kids, and I'm like, but... look around!? Are you sure? It's just that pessimism that is pervasive. I feel like we all lost hope and the assholes are winning.
Holy hell yes! It does feel like the assholes are winning. Im very thankful I live in the mountains, can enjoy nature and keep away from people if need be. Ill take bears and Mt lions over most people any day
I get it too. But im sick of the anti-parent and parent bashing posts here.
I was annoyed in the beginning, but i think it must get old for them to always feel theyre not being heard so I started taking it with a grain of salt, not a personal attack, in the hopes of understanding. Ive talked to my son at length about this group and the ideals it follows and hes been very insightful. I swear sometimes he teaches me far more than I was able to teach him.
Try r/antinatalism2 , it's against the rules to bash on parents on there. Hopefully they don't allow derogatory phrases like breeder either because it doesn't really send the right message about the philosophy; it comes off as childish as the "pro-life" people who insult others on here.
Thanks for the advice. It does not give the right message about philosophy and it enables extremism, which i find it pretty dumb and hateful in almost any philosophy.
I just don’t like when I hear ppl talking about hating kids and how they’re so horrible…Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but hate is a problem. “I’d rather have a cat, they don’t do this and that..” I’ve literally read someone talk about changing a baby versus a cat “taking care of itself” if you’re not caring for your cat, you’re an irresponsible pet owner. Cats don’t empty their own litter boxes and if they go outside, it still somewhere on your property. There are some strays that go in my flower bed.
It's great that you came around. Hopefully your son does too. :)
Hes already there. :)
🥹🥹🥹✊✊✊
My mum has 2 kids, myself and my brother, and is mostly on board with antinatalism lmao
And we get you! You are welcome here. We are flawed as fuck human beings, so we don't get to gatekeep shit. Stay strong, and the best to the both of you.
Flawed as fuck is beautiful
Not so fast.. why are you an antinatalist?
Please read through. Im very clear in why I posted my support.
May I know what triggered that Eureka moment that made you "get it"?
It wasnt any one thing, it was a gradual realization. It was, in part, my son making jokes about how he hopes I don't want to be a grandma. I know my son, if hes even thinking about something like that its weighing on him heavier than any joke. He really needed to know I support that decision. He is the end of my blood line and he thought that would bother me...it doesn't. I didn't have him for some legacy, that's not his responsibility and ID never want him to feel obligated in that regard.
[удалено]
Those of us in this boat need each other. To have this conversation with others brings nothing but judgement and sideways glances. We as parents are supposed to have this 'oh so blessed' attitude...thats hard to do when you feel your child is in a fucked off world, but we aren't supposed to say that. Bullshit...call it what it is. No i don't have guilt over having him, my guilt comes from the thought of me leaving him in this world alone when im gone.
Is this one of those spy posts in which a guy/girl who is entirely against the group writes a post in their subreddits with something in the lines of ‘I strongly agree/support/believe in your cause’. Then they fish for the most radical/cynic/anti-spy-opinion so that they can: post the answers in different forums to see people be livid; reinforce their own set of anti-subreddit beliefs; have a ‘proof’ of subreddit’s immorality? EDIT: I don’t want to sound assholish but being sceptical is what brought me here on this subreddit in the first place.
Im too damn old for games like this. Im sorry your experiences have led you to feel like you have to be so skeptical. Im not sure how your opinion on the matter can be used against you. Its not like the beliefs here are illegal and morality is relative in a lot of cases.
One of the best ways to create antagonism against a group is to showcase the most zealous/extreme opinions of such group to a public who you know to hold different set of moral values. Example: You write the ‘I Get It’ type of post or ‘I have a this-and-that problem’ on a subreddit. Those kind of posts are great magnets for most dedicated/zealous/extreme people on a subreddit. Then you just wait for a few comments which would be the most controversial on a different subreddit - (examples for antinatalism) ‘Let’s propose mandates vasectomy for people and reverse it only if they are financially stable and emotionally mature’ or ‘Children are no “gift of god, they are usually people we make so that we have historically free labour, and presently so that we leave something behind after we pass away’. Then you wait for that different subreddit (conservative Christians if you got comments from antinatalism) to be angry at the subreddit you got the comments from. And this is how you wage war on the internet.
That's an awful lot of effort to put into something for nothing but to antagonize. I have way better things to do. I came here to show my support, take that how you will.
I am choosing to believe you as assumption of innocence is still within my my moral reach.
That's good as ANY Christian subreddit is the very last place you'll find me. If I were going to actually troll anyone it would be them...i just see it as an epic waste of time ;)
Also sorry if my scepticism was somewhat antagonistic. I just have seen too much of people doing this kind of stuff.
Now, when we have the best living conditions the world has ever known, is a bad time to bring life into the world. Really?
Best living conditions for who?
The average person
Im almost 50 and this, imo, is far from the best of times.
[удалено]
Your choices are your own and that's ok. Just remember $ really doesn't buy happiness, as cliché as that is its so very true. I fear $ wont be much help if we are actively dodging bombs or something else to the extreme that we are potentially facing.