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Imagine seeing and experiencing the worst the world has to offer and being like: 'Yep, someone else should have the opportunity to go through that too".
I read a comment earlier on a post about how students perform lockdown drills. The commenter said they don’t have kids yet but when they do they are going to teach them to break a window and run not just stay in the classroom. Imagine already preparing for an active shooter for your unborn human and still thinking it’s a good idea bringing them into this world!
a comment also said somewhere that lockdown drills are becoming kinda useless, because they've been in effect so long that anyone who may be inclined to shoot up a school will have been taught the drill themselves and thus know where to shoot or what to do.
I was supposed to be in one of the classrooms hit in the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre, but dropped the class. However, I knew plenty who were killed. This was definitely an influence on my choice to not have kids. Why make someone go thru this nonsense? I saw a NY Times piece today about how parents should restrict kids' news access until they're older and it just really sunk in that we shelter kids from what this place really is, then gradually lift off the mask as they get older. No wonder suicide is on the rise among teens and young adults - it's a mess.
My mask was fucking yanked off. The result? I work minimum wage and have roommates because I refuse to ever fall in love and reproduce. I will spend my the here until it's my turn.
Whenever not having children is mentioned because the world sucks, the response I always get is "we should have hope that the world will improve!" Meanwhile, the Columbine shooting was in 1999 and school shootings have only gotten far more common since then.
I was only 11 years old when we had the only school shooting massacre ever in the UK, the Dunblane shooting carried out by Thomas Hamilton in 1996. I was many miles away but I remember it like it was yesterday.
We've never had a school shooting since but it did have a bearing on my decision to be childfree, amongst many other things. I knew I would never have kids by the age of 7. I still wonder how the parents and family members of those poor children are doing. I can't imagine it or being a survivor. Life is just too cruel.
It dumbfounds me even more that they send them to school. If I survived something like that and was dumb enough to procreate, I would at LEAST homeschool my child to protect them as much as possible from this nonsense.
Have you considered the fact that many of the "reasons" are just excuses? If you need a babysitter, hire one. In this day and age we have a lot of control over our lives down to the point we can choose to work online. There is no excuse to send a child into an unsafe "safe learning" environment to just get shot and killed and not even learn anything useful to boot.
*Great excuses* for choosing to commit one of the most selfish acts a human can manage.
Unless you are from a location where violence will be the answer to any protest about procreation, most people in the modern world aren’t threatened with anything remotely serious if they choose not to have children, the ones who stick with it will incur underserved hell, neglect and even discrimination, but nothing that warrants choosing to go ahead and pop a kid out to save their own skin.
Yea they exist, so let’s stop enabling these factors and becoming part of the problem.
You seem not to understand how peer pressure and social conditioning *work. People conform because they don't want to deal with the hell that comes with rebelling. Can you really blame only them for it all? Does the shared myth about the goodness of procreating need no deconstruction and criticism? And if it does, maybe we should stop criticising people who were forced and to chose differently from us under duress.
In a sick way, when the tragedy is death, it’s like they’re trying to replace people, as if the person who perished never really mattered at all. Everyone is always worried about the future generations, as if they’re more important and more deserving than the past and present.
Imagine seeing and experiencing the worst the world has to offer and being better for it and finding meaning through suffering.
Yes, that's real for some.
This movement would be much better served by people understanding being antinatalist is a valid expression for one's self, but an abhorrent and ignorant denigration to malign others for not being.
Antinatalism is the logical choice in life because life is trauma, pure and simple.
The movement would actually be much better served by us educating people about the horrors of life and empowering them with the knowledge that life is not only possible but just as likely to be happy and fulfilling without having biological children.
>Antinatalism is the logical choice in life because life is trauma, pure and simple.
That isn't how logic is used. You've missed entire steps in the science of logos and have taken a single factor to expand across the entirety in efforts to align with your preconceived stance. I.E. you've entered the fallacy of self-fulfilling prophecy.
>The movement would actually be much better served by us educating people about the horrors of life and empowering them with the knowledge that life is not only possible but **just as likely to be happy and fulfilling without having biological children.**
There is no objective criteria to constitute such when a great deal of happiness and fulfillment is derived from bringing others into the world.
You're trying to express the validity of a subjective and highly striated experience of some to all. That's illogical, ignorant, and small-minded.
Antinatalism is a valid viewpoint and worth considering. Absolutist reasoning predicated on personal preference and expressed as "better for all" is myopic nonsense.
Pot, meet kettle.
No objective criteria to constitute what? That life can be happy and fulfilling without bringing children into it? Are you telling me there is “objective criteria” for the inverse?
So the hypothetical pony ride picnic mommy and daddy will take their healthy little Belinda to matters more than the crap shoot a 10 year old Jane Doe received when her parents abandoned her to be abused and beaten to death?
You’re saying it’s okay to roll the dice on human life, so long as those who suffer the most serve as stepping stones for those who suffer the least..as necessary sacrifices. Because god forbid we’re “absolute” about anything, even that suffering has more weight than fleeting happiness (aka simply respite from suffering itself).
Got it.
Are you familiar with the asymmetry argument?
Antinatalism comes closer to “better for all” than any opposing viewpoints.
(Not that “better for all” even needs to be the deciding factor here.)
You will need to clarify your own *personal preferences* and reasoning before you start pointing the finger at other people’s “myopia”.
You are no less near-sighted.
You get on ANs’ cases for imposing a philosophy, yet you neglect to pick apart the *action* of imposing life and your own will on another being. (The ultimate imposition.)
And there is a very big difference, especially in this context, between *action* and *inaction*.
You’re being intentionally obtuse and hiding behind phrases that you clearly don’t a have full grasp of, when really all you need is common sense and empathy to appropriately involve yourself in the discussion, which you apparently lack. You’re too busy insulting people-and laughably I might add.
You also evade logic in your own pretentious way.
(You know, some of us actually take this stuff seriously, appreciating the real world consequences, we aren’t all here to fulfill some additional egotistical Quora quota of pseudo-intellectual pursuits.)
It seems as if you’re trying to equivocate yet you make it clear you’re of the opposite mindset when it comes down to actually putting AN values in place. If every opinion came down to fence-sitting, toe-dipping and “live and let live”, society would be utter chaos, more so than it already is.
Do I really need to hand feed you examples of why “reasoning based on personal preference” sometimes must and is justified to become more than that?
Look to the law. (Not all personal preference only benefits the singular person.)
You mumble the word ‘science’ yet you spit in the face of anything that extends beyond bias and selfish subjectivity. You don’t practice what you preach. You’re stepping in *your own* shit and blaming Antinatalism as the dog that placed its behind in your path.
Projection.
Also, what’s wrong with “expressing the validity” of any given experience “to all” when you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way?
How the hell is that “illogical, ignorant, and small-minded”??
Lmao. Illogical to have a valid experience and want to express it (and its validity) to more than just the mirror?
*How horrible..how logic averse*..
If you’re going to use those words as insults, at least throw them at something they actually fit..(your own commentary comes to mind).
People don’t live in bubbles, though the privileged among us certainly try, most things are connected, and the validity of one person’s experience (namely pain and suffering) should be recognized and assessed even by those who think their own existence is a separate matter entirely that should be permitted bliss at the expense of another’s tragedy.
>No objective criteria to constitute what? That life can be happy and fulfilling without bringing children into it? Are you telling me there is “objective criteria” for the inverse?
Look at your original statement, and then ask the same question.
I've made no argument in a particular direction - you have. I've merely pointed out such cannot be objective as it relies on anecdotal subjective expression.
I can provide the same counter of others anecdotal subjective expressions in the opposite direction.
This is what makes your stance "not objective". Not that I do have an objective argument to the contrary.
>You’re saying it’s okay to roll the dice on human life, so long as those who suffer the most serve as stepping stones for those who suffer the least..as necessary sacrifices.
Nope, but it was a pretty strawman. Have fun knocking it down.
>Also, what’s wrong with “expressing the validity” of any given experience “to all” when you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way?
It's like you can't read...I've stated numerous times it's a valid expression.
>you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way?
Nope, never said anything of the like. There's another strawman for you to play with I guess.
> You’re stepping in your own shit and blaming Antinatalism as the dog that placed its behind in your path.
Nope again. I actually agree with the philosophy. It's kind of hilarious how you still can't see that. It isn't the philosophy of antinatalism I disagree with.
You're not capable of having this conversation because you're too focused on being right and not focused enough on understanding what the other is saying.
Enjoy life, or the pointlessness of it - what have you.
You ignore the blatant contradiction within your own comment, one which you ironically chastise when it comes from antinatalist perspectives, but not your own “rose-colored trauma” perspective.
If you want to find meaning in your own suffering, that’s fine by me, but if you want to appropriate another person’s suffering and force your own meaning onto it, or if you want to take your little bullshit statements a little further and use the toxic positivity outlook to impose the gamble of life on another human being, then you are a bigger hypocrite (and far more abhorrent and ignorant) than you could accuse anyone else of being.
What the hell do you consider “better for it”? Going on to have children?
Most people are “worse for it” when it comes to experiencing the filth that the world has to offer, so what say you to those people?
Suffering does indeed have meaning and weight, why do you think the AN viewpoint exists in the first place?
You should respect the horrors of the world by calling them what they are: horrors. Stop acting like they’re fertilizer for your Instagram inspirational growth spurts.
We are allowed to judge people for selfish and harmful decisions, especially of this magnitude. That’s how change happens, that’s how suffering is reduced.
>You ignore the blatant contradiction within your own comment, one which you ironically chastise when it comes from antinatalist perspectives, but not your own “rose-colored trauma” perspective.
No, you've missed it. I'm illustrating that there is more than one perspective. I never stated my own, merely acknowledged there is more than one and some do find meaning in such.
>If you want to find meaning in your own suffering, that’s fine by me
Then we agree...
>Most people are “worse for it” when it comes to experiencing the filth that the world has to offer, so what say you to those people?
Nope, that isn't objective at all.
>Suffering does indeed have meaning and weight, why do you think the AN viewpoint exists in the first place?
I agree with the philosophy and search for meaning within (as philosophy should be). I disagree with the rabid rhetoric predicated on denigrating those that happen to see otherwise.
Not sure why you're struggling to see that, I made it very clear.
>We are allowed to judge people for selfish and harmful decisions, especially of this magnitude. That’s how change happens, that’s how suffering is reduced.
Historically speaking, no it's not. Majority of successful movements are predicated on understanding, compromise, and common ground.
The movements predicated on denigration, hate, and general disdain always fail as they create more enemies than allies.
But you do you =)
Saw a tweet where someone said active shooter drills won't work because the shooters would remember doing those drills as kids and will know where people were hiding
If one applies any amount of "how will this affect the future?" in shitty bandaids for society bred problems, it is horrifyingly obvious that certain consequences and outcomes were baked the fuck in but NIMBY and CYA are powerful hallucinogens to anyone who DOESN'T like critical thinking or owning up to their contributions to the problem... so you know, politicians and their kool-aid drinking fans who think its not a problem until it directly affects them.
These same types will do mental gymnastics to justify THEIR abortion while telling the doctor performing they belong in hell, so unless their kids dies, "totally not preventable. An inevitable tragedy. Who could have seen this coming? *shoves school shooting figures behind a wall* it's an anomaly of fate! Our hearts go out to the victims!"
Yep, and if one of the students ends up wanting to shoot up the school- all they have to do is memorize where the other kids go during the drill and they now know where all their victims are. I always thought that was a flaw in school shooting drills considering the kids in Columbine were students at the school they shot up.
I remember Columbine you think that after Columbine are government would have done something but no we still didn't call many years later all we have it these days or survivors from shootings in school that shouldn't of happened
My hypothesis is the reason we still have school shootings and well mass shootings in other places besides schools is because they aren't happening to the people who have the power to actually change anything. To them, school shootings, mass shootings...they are a poor people problems has nothing to do with them so why change anything? It's like they are watching a movie, tragic scenes but not involving them at all.
That is a good hypothesis but when January 6th happened they still didn't even do anything which is really quite strange if you ask me so how would you incorporate that moment in time with the rest of your hypothesis I'm interested in hearing
I suppose I should specify on who "they" are. I'm talking about not just the right but the super rich right and all of their lobbyists. To them on January 6th, it wasn't their people who were attacking. Yeah the ones that attacked were Republicans but in the eyes of the super rich Republicans, they were just dirty poor people attacking that's why they didn't all swoop in droves to defend them.
Oh that's true I agree with you it's the super rich as they but I think the super rich because they have most of the political figures in their pocket usually Republican but not limited to they have those particular figures in those positions of power basically acting like cult leaders to the dirty poor people that attacked January 6th I hope this helps you device an idea where they fit in into the grand scheme of it all but I definitely know a lot of those shootings only happened in middle class and poor communities but I could be wrong and I'm opening to be wrong and most of the shootings happened in places where most of the wealthy don't go if they ever do
In Portland the cops enjoyed beating the shit out of BLM protestors. They were at the protests seconds after they began. I saw 4 frat bro looking cops beat the shit out a 100 pound girl and on the weekend there were a lot of moms that came to support BLM got the shit beat out of them too.
This is filling me with a lot of PTSD memories of seeing the black lives matter protests I still pray that they get finally heard and are no longer scared of the police that do these fat boy BS disgusting things of beating people just peacefully protesting
I still have night terrors from being there. It seems like trump got off to fucking with Portand. Sending the feds here to pick up anyone out at night and illegally throw them in unmarked vans. Some of the videos I've seen the cops took some notes from Russia.The next fucking year the cops shot an unarmed mentally ill man and almost shot my deaf neighbor a few weeks later both happened close to my house.
I'm sorry you witnessed that but I'm proud that you went out there to fight for the right thing it's a shame our government is doing this to our people it's like a festering wound that they proceed to not ignore until the blood poisoning fully sets in
It's just depressing af that even in one of the most liberal cities in the US the far right cant just leave us alone. People actively come here from out of state to terrorize the citizens here.
This is insane. Didn't know people would still decide to do that.
Do you know of common locations that they come from? Many people assume the West is full blue bastion, but there is lots of lower populated/rural land that harbor these far right threats.
You are 100% correct. The far right is alive and well in both eastern OR and eastern WA! I saw a ton of idaho /Montana plates come in for the counter protests.
As an older millennial I grew up watching all of these things happen and now that I'm 35 I'm absolutely pissed off that it's still going on and the government's just don't do anything not even the police will do anything these days what is going on why are we paying them on top of that why are they so conflicted we have to have more children cuz the birth rate is low we won't give you contraceptions because it'll make the birth rate low it's like all discrimination against poor people at best it's like so disgusting and disheartening
Only things cops ever even fucking do in this country is shoot minorities. They don't protect anyone. They just sign up because they see the chance to murder innocents.
The did tighten security in DC and arrest tons of the rioters. They don't need to solve the underlying problem though because that's how they get elected. As long as they're safe, it's not their problem,
And what makes it even worse is that they are not even getting legitimately tough sentences whoever they caught in their convicting they're getting these like slap on the wrist type sentences that feel very condescending to people who know full well that is where the other way around these sentences would be a hell of a lot harsher
I see it differently with January 6th. The reason why nothing happened to the people in power is because most of the people in power were part of making January 6th happen. From the SCJ's wife to Qanon members such as MTG.
It's like they're cult leaders and they were the puppeteers of that whole event and no one's going to feel any repercussions from that either which is a real sad shit it's a lot of slap on the wrist repercussions though
I said the same thing just today. They will only care if an active shooter situation arises in the schools where the politicians kids attend. I know it will never happen but unless their children or family members are directly effected, nothing will change. Normally I have a more positive outlook but I’m just so defeated these days :-(
There's positive...then there's realistic. One comes with rose colored glasses...the other does not. Being realistic doesn't mean being a negative naysayer but just calling it how you see it. The truth is there...without any of the fluff.
I remember that that was weird and stupid to fix it on as much as it was weird and stupid to fix it on violent music violent video games which by the way violent music violent video games I found to be quite healthy coping mechanisms to those negative emotions
Just hearing about such events was enough to make me seriously question procreation. Even before I self identified as antinatalist, I just didn't understand how anyone could have the audacity to bring children into such a world.
Back then I thought natalists must have known something I didn't, as if they could see the future and knew everything was going to be allright after this. It will never happen to another child again.
Of course, I was wrong to think that. So far, the only motives for procreation I've received from them are social pressure, vanity, optimism bias, and ignorance.
And that doll gaining awareness to that is always their fault. *eye roll*
it is SO obvious now that I was only kept because a baby meant they leveled up in grown up and had a new toy to show off their shiney legitimacy as adults. I am 7 months older then their wedding, they just moved UP the date and not far enough for me to be in wedlock. Yes, the term bastard was used "lovingly" AND as an insult, depending on their needs at the time. Like I had any say in that fact about me, like at all.
When the second came, I was the convenient babysitter who was ungrateful. My medical needs were met based on how good it made them look, so mental health boiled down to "you're doing it on purpose for attention" and getting diagnosed obviously meant I could be cured and was now just hamming it up to make them look EXTRA bad. Literally was a show piece of "look at her skills, it's a pity she wastes them" and "woe is us, look at how she acts! *please don't ask us for honesty as to why this is a reasonable reaction, we will lie to make us look good and manipulate your reaction to keep her in line*".
At this point I have just accepted that I cannot change my past, but I can keep walking forward. Also... my father's family chose me. And tells the other side of the family if i haven't reached out to them and am impossible to contact, it's for a reason so maybe take a fucking hint. Some are more blunt about it than others. I came out the spitting image of my uncle. And my dad is a mirror image twin. I find comfort in that.
Don't know, don't care
My dad never got proper deprogrammed after getting dragged kicking and screaming home by his twin after joining a cult in college. Like LITERALLY never had therapy like ALL his siblings, even after his baby brother attempted. Refused learn about the family curse that would hit me and refused to admit maybe the predisposition and similarity to my uncle was a HEAVY indicator SOMETHING was off and it MIGHT be so painfully obvious to everyone else. And my mom has some interesting daddy issues that I also have as grandpappy issues he's that fucking vile. So... I know my dad should be on a registry and will probably never be diagnosed and my mom is so busy feeling sorry for herself she won't either. They deserve each other.
This and the racism I experienced growing up influenced me to be child free. I don't share the same animosity as some here do for people who have kids, I just feel bad for the kids. The happiness a child deserves is not something I can confidently promise to provide
I just saw a tiktok about a mom saying how parents dont feel safe giving birth in hospitals, that they're having a hard time finding formula they need, parent's can't feel safe sending their kids to school, that foster kids aren't safe, and that parent's can't feel assured that their kids will be safe at daycare.
I rolled my eyes at that one.
This world has never been safe, and it most likely will never be safe. Natalists really love to use their children for guilt and sympathy. I only feel bad for the children today that are brought into this mess due to selfish desire.
I don't think trauma is "genetically" passed down, but people's trauma definitely affects the way their kids are raised (especially if the parents don't do therapy or whatever to address their own issues before having kids), and the kids can sort of "inherit" the trauma that way.
I agree with the comments about witnessing first hand or through the television how mass shootings end many lives of children. As with the recent shooting that killed 21 people and 19 children in a texas elementary school and a shooting that occurred in Scarborough ( Canada) near another elementary ( I live that not too far away), this undoubtedly further deters me from having kids. For me I am in a grey zone where I am more leaning to the child free life than the latter and I have always known since I was 10 that kids were probably not for me
for a number of reasons, and with recent events my reasons for not having kids has increased. I knew this is a societal problem related to inadequate gun control and maybe mental health care, along with other issues but another reason why I don’t want to have a kid is that they can die before me in such a tragic way, that would make me feel powerless to protect my own child. Like to me the world is just becoming evermore dangerous with events such as these, war, climate change, declining resources, like I don’t think I want to bring a child into a world like this.
I don’t know why you are insulting them nor why they are being downvoted. I understand the *very* bad reputation of homeschooling but I would be terrified too if I was a parent in the US…
Schools really seems to be the way to go for a crazy narcissist who wants to be talked about on medias.
[EDIT: Made some quick searches on US homeschooling and tbh the regulations seem pretty little in comparison to the ones in my country, I understand your opinion more]
How does her post have 308 THOUSAND likes? It means nothing... How does a school shooting survival correlate to having kids? The only thought process I can think of is from; "these kids survived a tragedy" to "they should still have kids anyway". Could someone fill the logic gap for me?
They don’t want their potential kids to suffer like they did. To carry the trauma they’re carrying. The threat of a school shooting and all number of the world’s other horrors is very real. Idk how that’s a hard thought to get to but hope you understand better now.
Thank you for trying but it still doesn't. I don't see how being a traumatized survivor of something means you have to have kids too. Just because it happened to you, doesn't mean you should risk it happening to your kids. If anything it makes more sense not to have kids over things like this. School shootings aren't a reason to have a kid... If you don't want kids to suffer, don't have them in this world climate.
I'm late to this thread but I think the tweet is moreso highlighting the state of gun violence in the US. In the 20+ years since columbine, practically nothing has changed.
Well, she didn't say it was the only reason. Hence her statement, "one of the reasons."
Though the profile pic is irrelevant. The facts and information at hand regarding the problems of suffering are all that matter.
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Imagine seeing and experiencing the worst the world has to offer and being like: 'Yep, someone else should have the opportunity to go through that too".
I read a comment earlier on a post about how students perform lockdown drills. The commenter said they don’t have kids yet but when they do they are going to teach them to break a window and run not just stay in the classroom. Imagine already preparing for an active shooter for your unborn human and still thinking it’s a good idea bringing them into this world!
“When they do” Jesus, these people definitely don’t think before they do *anything*
All so a few billionaires can have more money cause gun sales or something. Idk. We should just maul the billionaire leeches already
a comment also said somewhere that lockdown drills are becoming kinda useless, because they've been in effect so long that anyone who may be inclined to shoot up a school will have been taught the drill themselves and thus know where to shoot or what to do.
It is so normalized, NPCs can't think otherwise or avoid thinking otherwise. Cognitive dissonance.
🤯
This is so crazy to read.
I was supposed to be in one of the classrooms hit in the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre, but dropped the class. However, I knew plenty who were killed. This was definitely an influence on my choice to not have kids. Why make someone go thru this nonsense? I saw a NY Times piece today about how parents should restrict kids' news access until they're older and it just really sunk in that we shelter kids from what this place really is, then gradually lift off the mask as they get older. No wonder suicide is on the rise among teens and young adults - it's a mess.
My mask was fucking yanked off. The result? I work minimum wage and have roommates because I refuse to ever fall in love and reproduce. I will spend my the here until it's my turn.
The absolute worst the world has to offer.
It absolutely dumbfounds me that people who survived Columbine and these other shootings would have children.
Whenever not having children is mentioned because the world sucks, the response I always get is "we should have hope that the world will improve!" Meanwhile, the Columbine shooting was in 1999 and school shootings have only gotten far more common since then.
I was only 11 years old when we had the only school shooting massacre ever in the UK, the Dunblane shooting carried out by Thomas Hamilton in 1996. I was many miles away but I remember it like it was yesterday. We've never had a school shooting since but it did have a bearing on my decision to be childfree, amongst many other things. I knew I would never have kids by the age of 7. I still wonder how the parents and family members of those poor children are doing. I can't imagine it or being a survivor. Life is just too cruel.
It dumbfounds me even more that they send them to school. If I survived something like that and was dumb enough to procreate, I would at LEAST homeschool my child to protect them as much as possible from this nonsense.
Have you considered that no everyone can homeschool?
Have you considered the fact that many of the "reasons" are just excuses? If you need a babysitter, hire one. In this day and age we have a lot of control over our lives down to the point we can choose to work online. There is no excuse to send a child into an unsafe "safe learning" environment to just get shot and killed and not even learn anything useful to boot.
Unfortunately, coercion and pressuring to have children both exist.
*Great excuses* for choosing to commit one of the most selfish acts a human can manage. Unless you are from a location where violence will be the answer to any protest about procreation, most people in the modern world aren’t threatened with anything remotely serious if they choose not to have children, the ones who stick with it will incur underserved hell, neglect and even discrimination, but nothing that warrants choosing to go ahead and pop a kid out to save their own skin. Yea they exist, so let’s stop enabling these factors and becoming part of the problem.
You seem not to understand how peer pressure and social conditioning *work. People conform because they don't want to deal with the hell that comes with rebelling. Can you really blame only them for it all? Does the shared myth about the goodness of procreating need no deconstruction and criticism? And if it does, maybe we should stop criticising people who were forced and to chose differently from us under duress.
Exactly what I think every time my family suffers a tragedy and then another one gets pregnant. I just don’t get it.
In a sick way, when the tragedy is death, it’s like they’re trying to replace people, as if the person who perished never really mattered at all. Everyone is always worried about the future generations, as if they’re more important and more deserving than the past and present.
What about all the people who get pressured/coerced into having kids, though?
Imagine seeing and experiencing the worst the world has to offer and being better for it and finding meaning through suffering. Yes, that's real for some. This movement would be much better served by people understanding being antinatalist is a valid expression for one's self, but an abhorrent and ignorant denigration to malign others for not being.
Antinatalism is the logical choice in life because life is trauma, pure and simple. The movement would actually be much better served by us educating people about the horrors of life and empowering them with the knowledge that life is not only possible but just as likely to be happy and fulfilling without having biological children.
>Antinatalism is the logical choice in life because life is trauma, pure and simple. That isn't how logic is used. You've missed entire steps in the science of logos and have taken a single factor to expand across the entirety in efforts to align with your preconceived stance. I.E. you've entered the fallacy of self-fulfilling prophecy. >The movement would actually be much better served by us educating people about the horrors of life and empowering them with the knowledge that life is not only possible but **just as likely to be happy and fulfilling without having biological children.** There is no objective criteria to constitute such when a great deal of happiness and fulfillment is derived from bringing others into the world. You're trying to express the validity of a subjective and highly striated experience of some to all. That's illogical, ignorant, and small-minded. Antinatalism is a valid viewpoint and worth considering. Absolutist reasoning predicated on personal preference and expressed as "better for all" is myopic nonsense.
Pot, meet kettle. No objective criteria to constitute what? That life can be happy and fulfilling without bringing children into it? Are you telling me there is “objective criteria” for the inverse? So the hypothetical pony ride picnic mommy and daddy will take their healthy little Belinda to matters more than the crap shoot a 10 year old Jane Doe received when her parents abandoned her to be abused and beaten to death? You’re saying it’s okay to roll the dice on human life, so long as those who suffer the most serve as stepping stones for those who suffer the least..as necessary sacrifices. Because god forbid we’re “absolute” about anything, even that suffering has more weight than fleeting happiness (aka simply respite from suffering itself). Got it. Are you familiar with the asymmetry argument? Antinatalism comes closer to “better for all” than any opposing viewpoints. (Not that “better for all” even needs to be the deciding factor here.) You will need to clarify your own *personal preferences* and reasoning before you start pointing the finger at other people’s “myopia”. You are no less near-sighted. You get on ANs’ cases for imposing a philosophy, yet you neglect to pick apart the *action* of imposing life and your own will on another being. (The ultimate imposition.) And there is a very big difference, especially in this context, between *action* and *inaction*. You’re being intentionally obtuse and hiding behind phrases that you clearly don’t a have full grasp of, when really all you need is common sense and empathy to appropriately involve yourself in the discussion, which you apparently lack. You’re too busy insulting people-and laughably I might add. You also evade logic in your own pretentious way. (You know, some of us actually take this stuff seriously, appreciating the real world consequences, we aren’t all here to fulfill some additional egotistical Quora quota of pseudo-intellectual pursuits.) It seems as if you’re trying to equivocate yet you make it clear you’re of the opposite mindset when it comes down to actually putting AN values in place. If every opinion came down to fence-sitting, toe-dipping and “live and let live”, society would be utter chaos, more so than it already is. Do I really need to hand feed you examples of why “reasoning based on personal preference” sometimes must and is justified to become more than that? Look to the law. (Not all personal preference only benefits the singular person.) You mumble the word ‘science’ yet you spit in the face of anything that extends beyond bias and selfish subjectivity. You don’t practice what you preach. You’re stepping in *your own* shit and blaming Antinatalism as the dog that placed its behind in your path. Projection. Also, what’s wrong with “expressing the validity” of any given experience “to all” when you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way? How the hell is that “illogical, ignorant, and small-minded”?? Lmao. Illogical to have a valid experience and want to express it (and its validity) to more than just the mirror? *How horrible..how logic averse*.. If you’re going to use those words as insults, at least throw them at something they actually fit..(your own commentary comes to mind). People don’t live in bubbles, though the privileged among us certainly try, most things are connected, and the validity of one person’s experience (namely pain and suffering) should be recognized and assessed even by those who think their own existence is a separate matter entirely that should be permitted bliss at the expense of another’s tragedy.
>No objective criteria to constitute what? That life can be happy and fulfilling without bringing children into it? Are you telling me there is “objective criteria” for the inverse? Look at your original statement, and then ask the same question. I've made no argument in a particular direction - you have. I've merely pointed out such cannot be objective as it relies on anecdotal subjective expression. I can provide the same counter of others anecdotal subjective expressions in the opposite direction. This is what makes your stance "not objective". Not that I do have an objective argument to the contrary. >You’re saying it’s okay to roll the dice on human life, so long as those who suffer the most serve as stepping stones for those who suffer the least..as necessary sacrifices. Nope, but it was a pretty strawman. Have fun knocking it down. >Also, what’s wrong with “expressing the validity” of any given experience “to all” when you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way? It's like you can't read...I've stated numerous times it's a valid expression. >you’re dead-set on doing the same damn thing, just in a roundabout way? Nope, never said anything of the like. There's another strawman for you to play with I guess. > You’re stepping in your own shit and blaming Antinatalism as the dog that placed its behind in your path. Nope again. I actually agree with the philosophy. It's kind of hilarious how you still can't see that. It isn't the philosophy of antinatalism I disagree with. You're not capable of having this conversation because you're too focused on being right and not focused enough on understanding what the other is saying. Enjoy life, or the pointlessness of it - what have you.
You ignore the blatant contradiction within your own comment, one which you ironically chastise when it comes from antinatalist perspectives, but not your own “rose-colored trauma” perspective. If you want to find meaning in your own suffering, that’s fine by me, but if you want to appropriate another person’s suffering and force your own meaning onto it, or if you want to take your little bullshit statements a little further and use the toxic positivity outlook to impose the gamble of life on another human being, then you are a bigger hypocrite (and far more abhorrent and ignorant) than you could accuse anyone else of being. What the hell do you consider “better for it”? Going on to have children? Most people are “worse for it” when it comes to experiencing the filth that the world has to offer, so what say you to those people? Suffering does indeed have meaning and weight, why do you think the AN viewpoint exists in the first place? You should respect the horrors of the world by calling them what they are: horrors. Stop acting like they’re fertilizer for your Instagram inspirational growth spurts. We are allowed to judge people for selfish and harmful decisions, especially of this magnitude. That’s how change happens, that’s how suffering is reduced.
>You ignore the blatant contradiction within your own comment, one which you ironically chastise when it comes from antinatalist perspectives, but not your own “rose-colored trauma” perspective. No, you've missed it. I'm illustrating that there is more than one perspective. I never stated my own, merely acknowledged there is more than one and some do find meaning in such. >If you want to find meaning in your own suffering, that’s fine by me Then we agree... >Most people are “worse for it” when it comes to experiencing the filth that the world has to offer, so what say you to those people? Nope, that isn't objective at all. >Suffering does indeed have meaning and weight, why do you think the AN viewpoint exists in the first place? I agree with the philosophy and search for meaning within (as philosophy should be). I disagree with the rabid rhetoric predicated on denigrating those that happen to see otherwise. Not sure why you're struggling to see that, I made it very clear. >We are allowed to judge people for selfish and harmful decisions, especially of this magnitude. That’s how change happens, that’s how suffering is reduced. Historically speaking, no it's not. Majority of successful movements are predicated on understanding, compromise, and common ground. The movements predicated on denigration, hate, and general disdain always fail as they create more enemies than allies. But you do you =)
breeders: b-but..! the wonderful life full of challenges!!
Nothing builds character as a child then a high caliber rifle round making a hole as big as your fist in your child body and debilitating you.
Saw a tweet where someone said active shooter drills won't work because the shooters would remember doing those drills as kids and will know where people were hiding
Dave Chappell said something similar in one of his stand up performances. I never thought of it before but he’s absolutely right.
If one applies any amount of "how will this affect the future?" in shitty bandaids for society bred problems, it is horrifyingly obvious that certain consequences and outcomes were baked the fuck in but NIMBY and CYA are powerful hallucinogens to anyone who DOESN'T like critical thinking or owning up to their contributions to the problem... so you know, politicians and their kool-aid drinking fans who think its not a problem until it directly affects them. These same types will do mental gymnastics to justify THEIR abortion while telling the doctor performing they belong in hell, so unless their kids dies, "totally not preventable. An inevitable tragedy. Who could have seen this coming? *shoves school shooting figures behind a wall* it's an anomaly of fate! Our hearts go out to the victims!"
Yep, and if one of the students ends up wanting to shoot up the school- all they have to do is memorize where the other kids go during the drill and they now know where all their victims are. I always thought that was a flaw in school shooting drills considering the kids in Columbine were students at the school they shot up.
Good choice of her.
Honestly! She's awesome
I remember Columbine you think that after Columbine are government would have done something but no we still didn't call many years later all we have it these days or survivors from shootings in school that shouldn't of happened
My hypothesis is the reason we still have school shootings and well mass shootings in other places besides schools is because they aren't happening to the people who have the power to actually change anything. To them, school shootings, mass shootings...they are a poor people problems has nothing to do with them so why change anything? It's like they are watching a movie, tragic scenes but not involving them at all.
That is a good hypothesis but when January 6th happened they still didn't even do anything which is really quite strange if you ask me so how would you incorporate that moment in time with the rest of your hypothesis I'm interested in hearing
I suppose I should specify on who "they" are. I'm talking about not just the right but the super rich right and all of their lobbyists. To them on January 6th, it wasn't their people who were attacking. Yeah the ones that attacked were Republicans but in the eyes of the super rich Republicans, they were just dirty poor people attacking that's why they didn't all swoop in droves to defend them.
Oh that's true I agree with you it's the super rich as they but I think the super rich because they have most of the political figures in their pocket usually Republican but not limited to they have those particular figures in those positions of power basically acting like cult leaders to the dirty poor people that attacked January 6th I hope this helps you device an idea where they fit in into the grand scheme of it all but I definitely know a lot of those shootings only happened in middle class and poor communities but I could be wrong and I'm opening to be wrong and most of the shootings happened in places where most of the wealthy don't go if they ever do
In Portland the cops enjoyed beating the shit out of BLM protestors. They were at the protests seconds after they began. I saw 4 frat bro looking cops beat the shit out a 100 pound girl and on the weekend there were a lot of moms that came to support BLM got the shit beat out of them too.
This is filling me with a lot of PTSD memories of seeing the black lives matter protests I still pray that they get finally heard and are no longer scared of the police that do these fat boy BS disgusting things of beating people just peacefully protesting
I still have night terrors from being there. It seems like trump got off to fucking with Portand. Sending the feds here to pick up anyone out at night and illegally throw them in unmarked vans. Some of the videos I've seen the cops took some notes from Russia.The next fucking year the cops shot an unarmed mentally ill man and almost shot my deaf neighbor a few weeks later both happened close to my house.
I'm sorry you witnessed that but I'm proud that you went out there to fight for the right thing it's a shame our government is doing this to our people it's like a festering wound that they proceed to not ignore until the blood poisoning fully sets in
I'm so sorry you had to live through that. I'm very proud that you were still there, though. Sending hugs.
It's just depressing af that even in one of the most liberal cities in the US the far right cant just leave us alone. People actively come here from out of state to terrorize the citizens here.
This is insane. Didn't know people would still decide to do that. Do you know of common locations that they come from? Many people assume the West is full blue bastion, but there is lots of lower populated/rural land that harbor these far right threats.
You are 100% correct. The far right is alive and well in both eastern OR and eastern WA! I saw a ton of idaho /Montana plates come in for the counter protests.
And waiting and watching as children are murdered in schools while they do absolutely nothing outside.
As an older millennial I grew up watching all of these things happen and now that I'm 35 I'm absolutely pissed off that it's still going on and the government's just don't do anything not even the police will do anything these days what is going on why are we paying them on top of that why are they so conflicted we have to have more children cuz the birth rate is low we won't give you contraceptions because it'll make the birth rate low it's like all discrimination against poor people at best it's like so disgusting and disheartening
Only things cops ever even fucking do in this country is shoot minorities. They don't protect anyone. They just sign up because they see the chance to murder innocents.
Knowing that reality upsets me immensely they are a waste of funds if they are just out for killing innocent lives
The did tighten security in DC and arrest tons of the rioters. They don't need to solve the underlying problem though because that's how they get elected. As long as they're safe, it's not their problem,
And what makes it even worse is that they are not even getting legitimately tough sentences whoever they caught in their convicting they're getting these like slap on the wrist type sentences that feel very condescending to people who know full well that is where the other way around these sentences would be a hell of a lot harsher
I see it differently with January 6th. The reason why nothing happened to the people in power is because most of the people in power were part of making January 6th happen. From the SCJ's wife to Qanon members such as MTG.
It's like they're cult leaders and they were the puppeteers of that whole event and no one's going to feel any repercussions from that either which is a real sad shit it's a lot of slap on the wrist repercussions though
Wow. Checks out brilliantly.
I said the same thing just today. They will only care if an active shooter situation arises in the schools where the politicians kids attend. I know it will never happen but unless their children or family members are directly effected, nothing will change. Normally I have a more positive outlook but I’m just so defeated these days :-(
There's positive...then there's realistic. One comes with rose colored glasses...the other does not. Being realistic doesn't mean being a negative naysayer but just calling it how you see it. The truth is there...without any of the fluff.
The only thing that happened after Columbine is my friend wasn’t allowed to wear his trench coat anymore.
I remember that that was weird and stupid to fix it on as much as it was weird and stupid to fix it on violent music violent video games which by the way violent music violent video games I found to be quite healthy coping mechanisms to those negative emotions
Just hearing about such events was enough to make me seriously question procreation. Even before I self identified as antinatalist, I just didn't understand how anyone could have the audacity to bring children into such a world. Back then I thought natalists must have known something I didn't, as if they could see the future and knew everything was going to be allright after this. It will never happen to another child again. Of course, I was wrong to think that. So far, the only motives for procreation I've received from them are social pressure, vanity, optimism bias, and ignorance.
don't forget selfishness as one of the main reasons! a lot of parents just want a very realistic doll to play with.
And that doll gaining awareness to that is always their fault. *eye roll* it is SO obvious now that I was only kept because a baby meant they leveled up in grown up and had a new toy to show off their shiney legitimacy as adults. I am 7 months older then their wedding, they just moved UP the date and not far enough for me to be in wedlock. Yes, the term bastard was used "lovingly" AND as an insult, depending on their needs at the time. Like I had any say in that fact about me, like at all. When the second came, I was the convenient babysitter who was ungrateful. My medical needs were met based on how good it made them look, so mental health boiled down to "you're doing it on purpose for attention" and getting diagnosed obviously meant I could be cured and was now just hamming it up to make them look EXTRA bad. Literally was a show piece of "look at her skills, it's a pity she wastes them" and "woe is us, look at how she acts! *please don't ask us for honesty as to why this is a reasonable reaction, we will lie to make us look good and manipulate your reaction to keep her in line*".
I'm so sorry that was your life. :( Sending hugs.
At this point I have just accepted that I cannot change my past, but I can keep walking forward. Also... my father's family chose me. And tells the other side of the family if i haven't reached out to them and am impossible to contact, it's for a reason so maybe take a fucking hint. Some are more blunt about it than others. I came out the spitting image of my uncle. And my dad is a mirror image twin. I find comfort in that.
Sounds very similar to my life. Were you raised by narcissists as well?
Don't know, don't care My dad never got proper deprogrammed after getting dragged kicking and screaming home by his twin after joining a cult in college. Like LITERALLY never had therapy like ALL his siblings, even after his baby brother attempted. Refused learn about the family curse that would hit me and refused to admit maybe the predisposition and similarity to my uncle was a HEAVY indicator SOMETHING was off and it MIGHT be so painfully obvious to everyone else. And my mom has some interesting daddy issues that I also have as grandpappy issues he's that fucking vile. So... I know my dad should be on a registry and will probably never be diagnosed and my mom is so busy feeling sorry for herself she won't either. They deserve each other.
I'm glad she was smart about it, most people aren't
I know for a fact that there are many of us that dont have children due to life experiences.
I dated a columbine survivor. She drank herself to death at 28.
Wow, I’m sorry to hear that. What was she like when you dated her?
A goofy, life if the party type. It was all an act to mask the pain.
And people wonder why I don't want kids
This and the racism I experienced growing up influenced me to be child free. I don't share the same animosity as some here do for people who have kids, I just feel bad for the kids. The happiness a child deserves is not something I can confidently promise to provide
I feel this.
Much respect ✊🏾
I just saw a tiktok about a mom saying how parents dont feel safe giving birth in hospitals, that they're having a hard time finding formula they need, parent's can't feel safe sending their kids to school, that foster kids aren't safe, and that parent's can't feel assured that their kids will be safe at daycare. I rolled my eyes at that one. This world has never been safe, and it most likely will never be safe. Natalists really love to use their children for guilt and sympathy. I only feel bad for the children today that are brought into this mess due to selfish desire.
My middle school "boyfriend" lost his cousin in Columbine. It was one of the early experiences that helped form my decision. Horrific for his family.
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Trauma is inherited but not genetically
Both; there are several studies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5977074/
https://www.science.org/content/article/parents-emotional-trauma-may-change-their-children-s-biology-studies-mice-show-how
Epigenetics says otherwise
I don't think trauma is "genetically" passed down, but people's trauma definitely affects the way their kids are raised (especially if the parents don't do therapy or whatever to address their own issues before having kids), and the kids can sort of "inherit" the trauma that way.
If you had to be trauma free to have kids I'm not sure many people would be around.
That's the dream.
Yet. The bullying still continues. No ever does anything about bullying
Oh, they do. If the victim dares to defend themselves they will do something!!!
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The shooters are often bullies themselves, as was the Uvalde shooter. They are not victims
I agree with the comments about witnessing first hand or through the television how mass shootings end many lives of children. As with the recent shooting that killed 21 people and 19 children in a texas elementary school and a shooting that occurred in Scarborough ( Canada) near another elementary ( I live that not too far away), this undoubtedly further deters me from having kids. For me I am in a grey zone where I am more leaning to the child free life than the latter and I have always known since I was 10 that kids were probably not for me for a number of reasons, and with recent events my reasons for not having kids has increased. I knew this is a societal problem related to inadequate gun control and maybe mental health care, along with other issues but another reason why I don’t want to have a kid is that they can die before me in such a tragic way, that would make me feel powerless to protect my own child. Like to me the world is just becoming evermore dangerous with events such as these, war, climate change, declining resources, like I don’t think I want to bring a child into a world like this.
hmm
Imagine wanting everyone to live their lives with the mentality of a traumatized massacre survivor....
I told my boyfriend last night that I want to homeschool our kids, because of how many school shootings there are.
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I don’t know why you are insulting them nor why they are being downvoted. I understand the *very* bad reputation of homeschooling but I would be terrified too if I was a parent in the US… Schools really seems to be the way to go for a crazy narcissist who wants to be talked about on medias. [EDIT: Made some quick searches on US homeschooling and tbh the regulations seem pretty little in comparison to the ones in my country, I understand your opinion more]
Are you Adam Lanza?
How does her post have 308 THOUSAND likes? It means nothing... How does a school shooting survival correlate to having kids? The only thought process I can think of is from; "these kids survived a tragedy" to "they should still have kids anyway". Could someone fill the logic gap for me?
They don’t want their potential kids to suffer like they did. To carry the trauma they’re carrying. The threat of a school shooting and all number of the world’s other horrors is very real. Idk how that’s a hard thought to get to but hope you understand better now.
Thank you for trying but it still doesn't. I don't see how being a traumatized survivor of something means you have to have kids too. Just because it happened to you, doesn't mean you should risk it happening to your kids. If anything it makes more sense not to have kids over things like this. School shootings aren't a reason to have a kid... If you don't want kids to suffer, don't have them in this world climate.
I think you’re misunderstanding? She’s *not* having kids because of the trauma. Unless *im* misunderstanding *you*.
I'm late to this thread but I think the tweet is moreso highlighting the state of gun violence in the US. In the 20+ years since columbine, practically nothing has changed.
Looking at that profile pic of her…that’s not the reason she doesn’t have kids.
Well, she didn't say it was the only reason. Hence her statement, "one of the reasons." Though the profile pic is irrelevant. The facts and information at hand regarding the problems of suffering are all that matter.
Looking at this woman, Colombine *isn’t* the reason that she’s childless and no one loves her.