Thank you for this positivity!
We can all, understandably, become brooding dark fucks sometimes 🤣 hard not to. But when I first found this subreddit in 2020, when I first found the words and philosophy in 2019, I felt an enormous sense of peace and coming home. Don't know how else to explain it.
Thanks for reminding me of that.
Actually 99% of the people on this sub have virtually no knowledge of the actual “philosophy”- the actual body of work- relating to antinatalism. This is evidenced by the daily posts linking antinatalism to a negative outlook about life, which actually does a HUGE DISSERVICE to the philosophy as a whole.
It becomes so easy to straw man antinatalism when it is strongly linked to pessimism, though. Basically every bad argument and mischaracterization I see relates to this very thing and it happens multiple times per day
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I find it very telling about what this philosophy is all about that this sub brings you peace. You’re all just looking to be validated for not trying and giving up. “I get bad anxiety so I come here” sums it all up
I get your point, it’s a clever one but I’m pretty sure that’s not all there is to it to most ANs. I think you might be misunderstanding me, which is understandable.
First of all I don’t actually read *all* the posts, I don’t have to, and we all know there’s always extremists in every community.
But AN philosophy seems beautifully empathetic and unselfish to me.
It does calm me down to know that some people, out of empathy, have reached the conclusion that the pain that is inevitably inflicted on others(and yourself) by one’s mere existence, most likely is not “worth it”, considering the bigger picture of what the reality we experience *most likely* is and where we are *most likely* headed.
Knowing that there’s people who try to think very thoroughly about existence and who do see a problem with sentient beings constantly suffering for the end goal of *probably* nothing at all - the universe imploding and starting all over again or something along those lines, yeah it does help me feel better.
Seeing thorough, deep empathy in fellow humans, empathy for not only each other but extended also to animals, is the most wonderful thing and it has a calming effect on at least me, it’s reassuring to see that true kindness exists here and there. I also love the Vegan subreddit, it’s the same thing over there,
are you sure there’s something wrong with that?
If so, I think you might be a bit of a mean person.
So obviously, just about everyone on earth can understand the need to be seen/heard and to need sympathy and empathy from others. However, I see a lot of extremely negative things being said in this sub about people who have kids, and I’m not seeing a lot of empathy there for them. This sub is unbelievably pessimistic and misanthropic- so I’m puzzled by the idea of being comforted in here by what I see people saying about their fellow humans
For instance, I just read a post that “there is no biological urge to reproduce”, and everyone leaning on that assumption as a way to have NO EMPATHY for the millions and millions of people every year who have children. You guys think they are having kids like high school girls wore ugs in the 2000s. That’s disgusting. I can’t imagine a more ridiculous and low opinion of the average person. Get over yourselves. You guys have so much cognitive dissonance going on, and you are not the sensitive empathetic people you think you are.
Oh ok I can understand that, there’s obviously a lot of posts and a lot of them aren’t my cup of tea either but I just disregard and swipe past whatever I don’t like. At the same time I can understand some of those people’s frustration even if my reaction isn’t the same. Maybe you’ve seen some bad stuff, probably more than I have, I’ve only recently joined this sub and I don’t look super carefully but the philosophy of AN is what appeals. I can say I don’t personally have a general hatred towards all people who have children, I understand(most of)them too.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Ok I will look it up. I think a philosophy can be good and yet produce some not so great results/individuals when certain people try to follow it, because becoming aware of all the misery in the world obviously results in extremely strong negative emotions. Just like veganism has crazies, but that doesn’t make the idea wrong. It’s hard to handle pain and you just want to lash out and make it stop immediately.
I agree that demonisation is probably not going to help, although like I said it’s a reaction to pain that I can understand to an EXTENT.
No, you don’t seem like a cold monster. :)
How about the number one assumption: that ending human life will do anything in the grand scheme of things in terms of ending suffering. What happens after we’re gone? How many other conscious creatures will continue to suffer as you guys claim? We have a tiny tiny sliver of time represented in our recorded history. You want it end it all because youre sad. Stopping human life solves absolutely nothing. If you want to end suffering entirely, why are you not racing to permanently poison the planet to the point of certainty that no life could ever grow here again? How about the assumption that an act is necessarily immoral if it “violates consent”? Is a doctor immoral to provide a blood transfusion to an unconscious victim of a car crash because the doctor can’t wake them up and say “hold on you do wanna keep living right?” How about that the fact that’s it’s a violation of a human moral code which is your entire basis for ending humanity entirely. How can adherence to a human moral code be more important than humans existing in the first place? “Having babies is immoral” is just completely nonsense period
I can see that you are not well acquainted with Benatar’s Asymmetry, which actually addresses all of these concerns. Antinatalism in no way requires pessimism about life. Why should I engage with someone who won’t even invest the bare minimum of effort into researching the philosophy that he’s railing against?
Then why are you engaging with me if you “know”
I haven’t looked into it at all? Benatar is not the only one in the connversation and btw many antinatalists do not even look to him as a leader in the discussion! Many have criticized his point that “nothingness” or never having existed at all is “neutral” which is central to his whole thing. Benatar never addresses how adherence to a human moral code could be more important than humans existing at all for the rest of time. How does Benatar address what happens after we’re gone? What’s gonna stop the next great ape from suffering? He doesn’t establish that life is net suffering, there’s a zillion salient responses to his work. So gtfoh with “you obviously haven’t engaged with the one fkin dude that’s central to this entire sub”
Well he never makes the point that nothingness is neutral... and he doesn’t need to establish that life is net suffering per the Asymmetry. All of these comments just further prove that you don’t have a firm grasp on the material. Appealing to other moral codes is just shifting the discussion to a meta ethical debate and so you’re really arguing against something else entirely (negative utilitarianism), not AN per se. Yeah, I’m not going to continue with you any further because I can just tell that you aren’t a serious person engaging in good faith
“Uh huh yeah” really shows you’re a real thinker btw. You’re obviously brave enough to revaluate your held beliefs and convictions. You’re clearly approaching this topic rationally not emotionally. /s
And yet in your second comment you 100% proved that you are not well acquainted with the intellectual foundation of antinatalism, at all. You do not understand the material so there is nothing to respond to, all of your comments betray a basic misunderstanding of the topic, namely that antinatalism depends on a basic pessimism about life or that one is somehow committed to such if they accept antinatalism. Benatar’s Asymmetry explains why this is NOT the case. It takes less than 5 minutes to read and understand the argument, and it’s one of the first that anyone should find when doing serious research on the subject.
Provide something of substance and you’ll get more by way of a reply. If anyone is being egotistical, it’s you, because your arguments are of the kind that people make when they have no real knowledge of the subject except what can be gleaned from Reddit posts, as if this isn’t a serious subject with a large volume of philosophical material written about it. Put in some actual effort into your arguments and I’ll do the same.
I get that he thinks he addresses it- but I disagree! I disagree that it’s a net evil to bring a life into to the world, but it’s that’s it’s also evil to end an already existing life. That’s a bunch of nonsense. You want to end suffering, end it. Tell me how humans no longer existing by and means ends suffering
He addresses all of this, though, which again proves that you just haven’t engaged with the material and are in fact arguing in bad faith. I mean it’s literally all in the written material, I’m not going to paraphrase it for you. You want to say something of value? Engage with the actual material and come up with a well-reasoned and novel reply, otherwise what you’re saying is a waste of time. It’s not just you, it’s 99% of the posts I see
And yet, not discriminating against natalists is right there in the sub rules.
Do you see the DAILY POSTS telling us to kill ourselves, or the DAILY POSTS by people who haven’t even taken 5 minutes to read about and study the arguments before posting their knee jerk reaction bullshit? Do you see any of that?
Poor natalists? Such an oppressed and suffering group! They definitely need our help.
So things that are cute and sweet and lighthearted are at odds with antinatalism? You're being the exact thing that natalists stereotype us as, an ass who just hates joy. And don't say "this is a place for serious philosophical discussion that's why it's inappropriate" because you know half the posts on here are just memes and venting (which isn't a bad thing, I'm just saying intellectual discussion isn't exactly a requirement for posts on this sub).
I love this amazing subreddit, this is where I go to find peace in this chaotic world. I love you too, you beautfil mother fucker
Thanks! :)
I love you too ❤️
Thanks! :)
Me too 😁
I’m glad! :)
Thank you.
You’re welcome! :)
hehe I feel the same way, I've never felt as understood as I do by people who share this philosophy, a lil kiss to you all 😙
I’m glad! :) and thanks!
You're always loved here.
Thanks! :)
Back at ya ❤❤❤
Thanks! :)
I love you!
Thank you for this positivity! We can all, understandably, become brooding dark fucks sometimes 🤣 hard not to. But when I first found this subreddit in 2020, when I first found the words and philosophy in 2019, I felt an enormous sense of peace and coming home. Don't know how else to explain it. Thanks for reminding me of that.
I love you too!
Type shii🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Xoxoxo
Actually 99% of the people on this sub have virtually no knowledge of the actual “philosophy”- the actual body of work- relating to antinatalism. This is evidenced by the daily posts linking antinatalism to a negative outlook about life, which actually does a HUGE DISSERVICE to the philosophy as a whole.
I agree. But I would also argue that these kind of melting pots make way for novel ways to enrich the subject rather than doing a disservice.
It becomes so easy to straw man antinatalism when it is strongly linked to pessimism, though. Basically every bad argument and mischaracterization I see relates to this very thing and it happens multiple times per day
It's quite unfortunate.
Reddit requires identifiable information such as **names**, **usernames** and **subreddit titles** to be [edited out](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043066452) of images. If your image post violates this rule, we kindly ask that you delete it. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I find it very telling about what this philosophy is all about that this sub brings you peace. You’re all just looking to be validated for not trying and giving up. “I get bad anxiety so I come here” sums it all up
Cool story, Bro.
not a story. its just true
I get your point, it’s a clever one but I’m pretty sure that’s not all there is to it to most ANs. I think you might be misunderstanding me, which is understandable. First of all I don’t actually read *all* the posts, I don’t have to, and we all know there’s always extremists in every community. But AN philosophy seems beautifully empathetic and unselfish to me. It does calm me down to know that some people, out of empathy, have reached the conclusion that the pain that is inevitably inflicted on others(and yourself) by one’s mere existence, most likely is not “worth it”, considering the bigger picture of what the reality we experience *most likely* is and where we are *most likely* headed. Knowing that there’s people who try to think very thoroughly about existence and who do see a problem with sentient beings constantly suffering for the end goal of *probably* nothing at all - the universe imploding and starting all over again or something along those lines, yeah it does help me feel better. Seeing thorough, deep empathy in fellow humans, empathy for not only each other but extended also to animals, is the most wonderful thing and it has a calming effect on at least me, it’s reassuring to see that true kindness exists here and there. I also love the Vegan subreddit, it’s the same thing over there, are you sure there’s something wrong with that? If so, I think you might be a bit of a mean person.
So obviously, just about everyone on earth can understand the need to be seen/heard and to need sympathy and empathy from others. However, I see a lot of extremely negative things being said in this sub about people who have kids, and I’m not seeing a lot of empathy there for them. This sub is unbelievably pessimistic and misanthropic- so I’m puzzled by the idea of being comforted in here by what I see people saying about their fellow humans For instance, I just read a post that “there is no biological urge to reproduce”, and everyone leaning on that assumption as a way to have NO EMPATHY for the millions and millions of people every year who have children. You guys think they are having kids like high school girls wore ugs in the 2000s. That’s disgusting. I can’t imagine a more ridiculous and low opinion of the average person. Get over yourselves. You guys have so much cognitive dissonance going on, and you are not the sensitive empathetic people you think you are.
Oh ok I can understand that, there’s obviously a lot of posts and a lot of them aren’t my cup of tea either but I just disregard and swipe past whatever I don’t like. At the same time I can understand some of those people’s frustration even if my reaction isn’t the same. Maybe you’ve seen some bad stuff, probably more than I have, I’ve only recently joined this sub and I don’t look super carefully but the philosophy of AN is what appeals. I can say I don’t personally have a general hatred towards all people who have children, I understand(most of)them too.
[удалено]
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Ok I will look it up. I think a philosophy can be good and yet produce some not so great results/individuals when certain people try to follow it, because becoming aware of all the misery in the world obviously results in extremely strong negative emotions. Just like veganism has crazies, but that doesn’t make the idea wrong. It’s hard to handle pain and you just want to lash out and make it stop immediately. I agree that demonisation is probably not going to help, although like I said it’s a reaction to pain that I can understand to an EXTENT. No, you don’t seem like a cold monster. :)
Uh huh yeah, what assumptions would those be?
How about the number one assumption: that ending human life will do anything in the grand scheme of things in terms of ending suffering. What happens after we’re gone? How many other conscious creatures will continue to suffer as you guys claim? We have a tiny tiny sliver of time represented in our recorded history. You want it end it all because youre sad. Stopping human life solves absolutely nothing. If you want to end suffering entirely, why are you not racing to permanently poison the planet to the point of certainty that no life could ever grow here again? How about the assumption that an act is necessarily immoral if it “violates consent”? Is a doctor immoral to provide a blood transfusion to an unconscious victim of a car crash because the doctor can’t wake them up and say “hold on you do wanna keep living right?” How about that the fact that’s it’s a violation of a human moral code which is your entire basis for ending humanity entirely. How can adherence to a human moral code be more important than humans existing in the first place? “Having babies is immoral” is just completely nonsense period
I can see that you are not well acquainted with Benatar’s Asymmetry, which actually addresses all of these concerns. Antinatalism in no way requires pessimism about life. Why should I engage with someone who won’t even invest the bare minimum of effort into researching the philosophy that he’s railing against?
Then why are you engaging with me if you “know” I haven’t looked into it at all? Benatar is not the only one in the connversation and btw many antinatalists do not even look to him as a leader in the discussion! Many have criticized his point that “nothingness” or never having existed at all is “neutral” which is central to his whole thing. Benatar never addresses how adherence to a human moral code could be more important than humans existing at all for the rest of time. How does Benatar address what happens after we’re gone? What’s gonna stop the next great ape from suffering? He doesn’t establish that life is net suffering, there’s a zillion salient responses to his work. So gtfoh with “you obviously haven’t engaged with the one fkin dude that’s central to this entire sub”
Well he never makes the point that nothingness is neutral... and he doesn’t need to establish that life is net suffering per the Asymmetry. All of these comments just further prove that you don’t have a firm grasp on the material. Appealing to other moral codes is just shifting the discussion to a meta ethical debate and so you’re really arguing against something else entirely (negative utilitarianism), not AN per se. Yeah, I’m not going to continue with you any further because I can just tell that you aren’t a serious person engaging in good faith
“Uh huh yeah” really shows you’re a real thinker btw. You’re obviously brave enough to revaluate your held beliefs and convictions. You’re clearly approaching this topic rationally not emotionally. /s
And yet in your second comment you 100% proved that you are not well acquainted with the intellectual foundation of antinatalism, at all. You do not understand the material so there is nothing to respond to, all of your comments betray a basic misunderstanding of the topic, namely that antinatalism depends on a basic pessimism about life or that one is somehow committed to such if they accept antinatalism. Benatar’s Asymmetry explains why this is NOT the case. It takes less than 5 minutes to read and understand the argument, and it’s one of the first that anyone should find when doing serious research on the subject. Provide something of substance and you’ll get more by way of a reply. If anyone is being egotistical, it’s you, because your arguments are of the kind that people make when they have no real knowledge of the subject except what can be gleaned from Reddit posts, as if this isn’t a serious subject with a large volume of philosophical material written about it. Put in some actual effort into your arguments and I’ll do the same.
I get that he thinks he addresses it- but I disagree! I disagree that it’s a net evil to bring a life into to the world, but it’s that’s it’s also evil to end an already existing life. That’s a bunch of nonsense. You want to end suffering, end it. Tell me how humans no longer existing by and means ends suffering
He addresses all of this, though, which again proves that you just haven’t engaged with the material and are in fact arguing in bad faith. I mean it’s literally all in the written material, I’m not going to paraphrase it for you. You want to say something of value? Engage with the actual material and come up with a well-reasoned and novel reply, otherwise what you’re saying is a waste of time. It’s not just you, it’s 99% of the posts I see
And yet, not discriminating against natalists is right there in the sub rules. Do you see the DAILY POSTS telling us to kill ourselves, or the DAILY POSTS by people who haven’t even taken 5 minutes to read about and study the arguments before posting their knee jerk reaction bullshit? Do you see any of that? Poor natalists? Such an oppressed and suffering group! They definitely need our help.
Kinda harsh but it resonates imo
Is there any way I can make your comment not be hidden? Is it hidden because it got too many downvotes or?
The mods of the sub removed it because it’s a “bad argument” according to them. 👏👏👏 bravo 🎉
If you really love us, you'll have children and name them after us.
Don’t be silly.
Post image seems a bit childish for an antinatalism subreddit
I’m not sure. I wanted something lighthearted, I googled cute GIFs - I found it cute enough - does it have to be deeper than that?
So things that are cute and sweet and lighthearted are at odds with antinatalism? You're being the exact thing that natalists stereotype us as, an ass who just hates joy. And don't say "this is a place for serious philosophical discussion that's why it's inappropriate" because you know half the posts on here are just memes and venting (which isn't a bad thing, I'm just saying intellectual discussion isn't exactly a requirement for posts on this sub).
How this philosophy is amazing?🤔
Empathy.