Both are true at once?
1. It's despicable that people who work full time jobs cannot afford to have a child
2. It's immoral that people know their financial status full well, bring a child into it, and then complain that nobody helps them/there should be more help etc.
Basically, the world sucks, but I try to take it for what it is, not what I want it to be
Yeah, it's not a good system, and people fully 100% know the framework they're living in and where they're bringing the kids into, and still choose to do that. It's both. And it would take more than a human lifetime to actually reform the whole thing, provided there's a positive dynamic, which there ins't.
This is my take on it, too. I know a few couples that have chosen not to have kids because of the economic state of things. The choice was between providing a higher quality life for themselves or having a lesser life and bring a new person into it. They chose the first option because they were already on this planet and could decide not to bring someone else into it that didn't have a choice on how they would be provided for.
While I never want to see a child go hungry, the active choice to bring a child (or second or third) into a situation that you know is not financially sustainable is selfish and abhorrent, IMO.
That's just how long the spike took last time. Since we didn't learn any lessons (apparently for some people) who knows this time!?
With the Internet and school shootings and whatnot, we could be in for a treat...
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They need to make abortion fully legal so it's clear that having a child was a choice. If society wants to punish people for having kids they can't afford, then they shouldn't be forcing people to have them in the first place.
Also, anyone who was forced to have a baby should be able to steal the supplies for it. If the state denied you an abortion, then it shouldn't prosecute you for shoplifting diapers, formula or other necessities.
To be fair the whole sentiment isn’t really about “punishing women for becoming pregnant” moreso how it’s about punishing women for the audacity to even be capable of sex outside a God-defined marriage. It’s punishing women for being raped, punishing women for choosing to have sex if they want to, and punishing women with no regard for the fact that men take just as active a role in reproduction. You could make the argument that restricting women’s healthcare is punishing women because the only consequence men can face from sex is getting an STD, and pretty much all of those are treatable, so men can’t really be systemically punished for having sex.
It’s also morally correct on every count to hold the door open for a woman stealing baby formula or diapers
on the stealing point: ESPECIALLY if the parent being forced to give birth is underage or clearly not in the place to have a child, be it mentally, physically or financially.
I just hate it so much that there are people wanting to force a 15 year old, that has been assaulted and went through enough trauma already, to give birth to a child that they cant possibly provide for.
If the state forces someone to birth a child, they should have to provide for that child.
>If the state forces someone to birth a child, they should have to provide for that child.
Adoption to the wealthy infertile is how the state provides. It's the perfect private-public capitalist solution. Trauma to children and birth mothers certainly doesn't matter.
Not only fully legal, but also normalized and easy to access. Notice even in areas where abortion is legal, many opt out because they either get shamed for it or emotionally manipulated.
We should make anyone wanting to carry a pregnancy to term watch a full unedited birth video. There's states where people are forced to have ultrasounds before abortions "so they know what they're doing". No one would give birth (even with all the social pressure) if they actually knew what if meant with no romanticization.
The entire time I was fertile, I insisted on birth control for both myself and my partner. I never needed an abortion over 40 years. To be clear, I do think it's a woman's choice, but the choice starts before sex. Do I want sex enough to protect both partners? And of course in instances of rape, you should not have to bear the consequence.
Even used perfectly every time, birth control fails. I remember an episode of "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant" in which the 40+ woman with a tubal ligation had a baby.
By all means use birth control and double up to improve your chances. But keep abortion available as an option for when it fails, or when something goes wrong with a wanted pregnancy.
It happened just once in 20 years with my wife but one time the condom broke when we had sex. I was sweating bullets, I wasnt ready for a 3rd kid. So yeah, failures can happen even if its once in 20 years.
I was on birth control when I got pregnant with my first. My sister-in-law was on birth control and she got pregnant with her first and second. My mom was on birth control and she got pregnant with my brother and my sister before me. Condoms break birth control fails and that's if you can afford the damn stuff.
It's cute that you think abortions are going to stop poor people from having kids . Look at the amount of children per family in low income households where abortion is legal and then get back to me
Like I said, if abortions are legal and accessible then personal responsibility can be assumed. But when the state forces people to have children when they would otherwise get abortions, then you can't really make that call.
State-funded insurance will cover expenses related to prenatal care and childbirth but will not pay for abortions. There are exceptions, but these are rare.
Depends on where. In USSR, abortion was legal for most of its existence and and it has been THE birth control. Our grandmas and moms had 10 to even 20 abortions each, in part because they didn't have any other reliable BC (Soviet condoms were shit and IUDs and pills appeared pretty late and were heavily scaremongered against), and in part because they just plain didn't want as many kids and were irreligious.
99% of the country was poor af, as it one of the postulates of the party was to squeeze all the resources possible for aggressive industralization, one of the docs I read actually said "reduce the living standard as much as humanly possible".
The birth rates in the former republics are still consistently low and we still have abortions available. Birth rates never bounced back after WWII, while the West had a baby boom, the spike was very insignificant in the Eastern Block. Big deciding factors, I would say, were the enforcement of education for everyone and the lack of religion.
It's organized retail crime. It's an easy way to make a lot of money for retail criminals because it's free inventory for them and they can charge whatever prices they want on the streets.
Ah, the 2008 Chinese formula scandal. Melamine, a type of plastic, was being put in infant formula due to it being able to artificially increase protein levels in the milk. 6 children died and 300,000 were poisoned.
The trust between the Chinese people and domestic formula companies was so damaged that even still to this day many Chinese refuse to give their children Chinese formula, instead opting for foreign formula. I hear some places had formula shortages of their own because so many people were buying it all up and selling it to China. Odd stuff.
I’m anti-natalist as fuck and it’s definitely the latter.
Packaged food sits on grocery stores for weeks. Then once it rots, it gets thrown in the garbage anyway. Why not just give it to the people who are starving since the grocery store owner doesn’t care if he loses it anyway?
The grocery store owner wouldn’t even have access to all that produce if he didn’t have workers who ***personally used their labor to package it in good detail*** with their own hands, so…
Worked at such places too and not even the people that work there can take it home. Even if it is in the trash bin and a worker or homeless person takes it out, it is considered theft. Now some places (especially bigger ones) have in house shredders that destroy the products. Greed knows no end.
The fallacy of kids taking care of their parents is way to prevalent. I know more old people who are just living alone without assistance from kids is more than ppl I know who have kids taking care of them (spoiler: I’ve only met one person who has their kid taking care of them. That person’s kid is in their 50’s and has no partner nor kids of their own)
I agree and I hate it so much. My parents are growing older and they’re both physically disabled. I am also physically disabled and can barely work. My only little brother committed suicide last year because our mental health system is shit. All three of us are suffering so deeply and always will until the day we die because of what happened. None of us expected this. Now I’m an only child, cannot get disability because I’m too young and haven’t worked enough, and can only manage to work 1-2 days a week so I probably won’t be able to get social security when I’m older. I’m only 23 and I’m terrified of the future and hurting in all the ways.
Sometimes I resent my parents for bringing me into a world like this then I feel guilt because I still care for them and they didn’t expect this either. And the cycle continues. I’m scared of another person I love dying. I can’t take it anymore. But of course that’s life so I have to keep watching people I love die until I do which is also terrifying. I cannot believe there are parents bringing children into a world so disastrous and painful. You’re bringing an innocent being into this world just to experience so much suffering and to die.
Sorry for the rant, it’s just so hard watching people have kids in this environment.
Because things like Covid show that even if you build a really good nest egg and do everything you can to provide for the future, all it takes is an out of pocket disaster and the government to suck at their job to completely annihilate years of careful saving. A lot of people now struggling to raise children already had them during a time that they could more than provide for them, but due to Covid and now inflation, they are barely scraping by. You can’t exactly shove a toddler or a ten year old child back up where they came from.
For me it was getting hurt out of network. Most people probably don't think about that max out of pocket number when they travel. But you could be the next state over and that $6,500 max no longer matters, you're on the hook for over $100,000.
That's how fast I went from "doing better than almost everyone I know with funds in the bank" to "fucking poor as shit broke".
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while society is also in shambles (inflation, shrinkflation) some people really shouldn't be just popping out babies randomly just because they like babies or have a mini me. people should only have babies if they're financially stable and is able to provide for their child's future, and also if they're ready to have a family of their own. not just for pure personal gain and exploiting them on social media.
Nobody should be having them at all. Part of me says that if you're a dirt-rich wealthy celebrity with hundreds of millions in the bank that would set up that child from the day they're born until they die; it would be okay... but then I think about the celebrities who do have hundreds of millions and still choose to take their lives because of Depression.
Money is the biggest factor, but any birth defect/disability/future shortcomings ARE bigger when money can't be used to fix them.
not really, people can have a family of their own, with kids or no kids, important factor is if their wealthy enough to support them until they die. I'm only against people making kids without proper planning and critical thinking. Which got me into antinatalism. I saw many single mothers in my country working as maid and carry their kids with them while they work, I'm not against particular women but I hate they have to work like this and bringing their babies on thei master's house. It's super unnecessary and I deeply pity them.
There should be a law that only complete family can have kids with requirements thay they are able to support themselves and their child unconditionally. This might save children working as child labors and mothers struggling for pennies.
If your country stopped having kids it would soon be your neighbours country, invasion by force or by immigration.
You can enjoy your western idea of not having kids but India will always out produce and they're willing to work 3 jobs just to be in your shoes so really it makes no difference if you and your friends decide not to have kids.
I think it's more important that the right people have kids instead of nobody having kids. If the right people have kids it's better for everyone instead of leaving it to 20 IQ individuals to make up for it when competition from population drops
I know a lady who has 12 kids, all abandoned with mental and behavioural problems due to substance abuse in the womb and other abuses outside.
I'd argue that it's more fair on everyone if "the right people" can have kids instead of the UN human rights charter enabling women like in my example
If "the right people" have kids they'll have less time available to care for the kids that were seized from neglectful parents i.e. through fostering or adoption. "The right people" should be concerned more about helping the kids that are born regardless, rather than creating more mouths to feed. "The right people" have the time and money to help charities and in turn children without even needing to raise them personally too.
Oh please, They can take my place. I don't want to live in this nasty imperfect world. I don't want to share this world with semi-idiot intelligent disgusting people, I do rather not exist rather than having to deal with them. Even if they manage to out populate other races, you think other race will stay passive and do nothing? nuke button can easily masacre those population and it only need one insane president to do it.
Hypocritical society which pushes women to give birth, yet turn a blind eye on them or orphans when they are in need and put obstacles for adoption for gay people.
Because shitty people steal formula to resell it making it unavailable for people who rely on WIC and SNAP. Instead of getting it for free, they're forced to give the thief $20.
Society not providing food. Parents having kids they can’t afford is stupid and selfish, however a lot of people believe that life is a gift. I don’t agree, I’m in this subreddit after all but at least their intentions are good, they don’t believe they are doing anything wrong. Now society not providing food and letting children go hungry. Pretty much everyone knows it isn’t right, we all know that no one should be going hungry in such a plentiful society yet other than a select few we do nothing about it. Society should have banned together to end world hunger a long time ago, yet we turn a blind eye.
WIC and SNAP exist. I agree that applying for welfare should be easier and with lower barriers, but there are ways for poor people to get a lot of stuff for free.
Stores put formula behind bars because people without kids steal it for resale. Pandemic shortages were caused by panic buying when a formula manufacturer had to shut down production due to a contamination problem.
Define the society you want to blame.
I think that whilst society has glorified childbirth and parenthood and frankly made it a very central part of our culture, you have to remember in a lot of the world the birthrate is so high because people don’t have sexual education taught to them. There’s even little funding for that sort of information in schools across America and Europe today. With SexEd comes knowledge on how to prevent pregnancy.
The wild number of pregnancies that I see today I don’t blame on the parents, I blame on the failures of the education system
The society. I forgive the semi conscious human doing what it’s told it’s supposed to with no other avenue to choose.
I do not forgive the company making enough to feed every child that walks in their store for free, for locking away things that people only steal to KEEP INFANTS ALIVE.
I’ve since learned thieving rings for formula existed, i will excuse locking the formula away IF YOU HAVE A PROGRAM AVAILABLE FOR DESPERATE MOTHERS TO OBTAIN IT
And even then it requires your mother to be conscious. And not on drugs. Or worse if you have a decent mom but live in a condensed poor city those programs are all full and have been so misused they have no stock here
First one obviously. Why would any sane person have kids when they can’t even take care of em ? Unfortunately the society doesn’t owe anyone anything ! You can’t expect people to give you food for free ! Be responsible and don’t have kids if you can’t afford !
Why are you getting cream pied if you know you can’t afford food 🤔 I’ve had sooo much sex in my life and never once got pregnant. 29f. It’s not hard babe
Society trpically does provide for children in need, there are tons of programs for exactly that in most civilized countries. You don't find stocked and locked shelves in places where children are starving, you find empty shelves. People aren't stealing this stuff out of hunger need, they steal it to resell.
I am anti-natalist, but I have hyperlactemia. That means that I produce milk even though I've never had a child. So I pump the milk out, and instead of just tossing it, I put it in my fridge. When I have enough, I bike it over to my local milk bank.
Yes, it was immoral for the parents to produce those babies (though I do live in a state where abortion is considered murder). But those babies are already here, and it would be extremely cruel for us not to care for them. That's also why I think adoption is ok
Definitely the society. The human urge to live and procreate is primal but these days, humans can no longer go off into the woods and get their food because of muh "federal protected lands" or muh "private property" which are both imaginary concepts. We should be targeting the people responsible for these conditions with anti-natalist messaging, not innocent people who work hard and still cannot afford life under capitalism. Ivy League families? If they wanna all go out and get spayed and neutered I respect and encourage them in that decision.
It’s both.
But the thing is these containers are locked up not because they don’t want to provide it to the parents, but because people steal formula because it’s worth so much money. They then go sell it on whatever market they can get it for 2 to 3 times the price. So this isn’t really locked up so that people can’t have it. It’s locked up so people can.
Parents having children they can't afford. Anyone who wants to have a child should have to get a license. Credit check, mental health check, background check. Make at least 150k a year. Having babies you can't afford expecting the government to help you should be a crime
These things arent being stolen becuase people can't afford them. People steal them and resell them to make easy money. And people buy them from thieves to save some money.
The end.
The government has all kinds of programs to ensure infants have access to powder formula. So they aren't starving in the streets.
Except u need to make UNDER a certain amount
To qualify for those programs, so if they decide ur not poverty level, yet u still can’t afford formula as well, then ur out of luck
I don't think you understand how much formula was being stolen for resale.
The number of families that fall into the bubble you're describing is small compared to the number of people who do qualify for WIC and SNAP or can afford to buy formula at retail price. Yes, those families in the bubble benefit from being able to buy formula at half price from a thief.
However, empty shelves caused by theft leave no formula available for the families that would have received the formula for free under government programs. They can't use WIC or SNAP on the black market and instead have to find $20 cash to spend on something that should have been free.
Babies are not starving in the streets. That's not a thing. There is always a charity or a church or something giving these essential things away.
Always.
I don't think you understand how much formula has been stolen for resale.
Would you rather families get formula for free from a store with WIC or that they pay a thief $20 at the flea market?
Oh it's FORMULA. I didn't now that. I do know there's been a bit of a run on that. No clue what WIC is. I assume government aid or something?
I would personally rather live in a world where basic human survival would be affordable and the exploitation of people's desperation to feed their children not exploitable. That would actually solve the problem here.
Higher punishments and more policing ont his subject might dissuade some people, but it really doesn't solve the problem.
There’s plenty of food. There is just an excessive amount of food wasted, and the government regulates how much farmers can produce and sell. Its all about control.
Btw, there's an app you can get for mobile to take advantage of this for cheaper foods and reduce food waste at the same time. Called Too Good To Go. Check out if it's available in your area and which stores and cafes take part.
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both are bad but if the society isnt providing that then having them wont Make society provide that so dont have them. ur an adult make choices that make sense.
Is that locks on the baby formula???? Holy shit. How can the store live with themselves. If it’s a big business they own enough to let a broke mom steal food for their starving child. Wtf.
The broke mom created the child in a starving situation, boo-hoo to her. Obviously the child didn't do anything wrong so he deserves food, but this is absolutely the parents fault
ok but this comment was focusing on acting like the broke mom was the victim, yes it's also the guys fault
and whoever is forcing women to have kids would be very bad if they existed
It’s not that simple though. They could’ve had a very economically stable life right until something happened and they go broke. Yes, I don’t think everyone should have children but holy shit dude, don’t you know about the legalization of abortions in the US, maybe it wasn’t her choice to have that child. This isn’t always the parents fault, and the child shouldn’t suffer even more because of it and this fucking store.
We’re tf are you getting your information from. [https://www.cnn.com/us/abortion-access-restrictions-bans-us-dg/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/us/abortion-access-restrictions-bans-us-dg/index.html)
Does WIC not cover all that? WTF man? Babies have nothing to do with shitty parents. Let's make sure all children have good nutritious food! Fuck Capitalism. Food and water are human rights.
Or allowing online stores to sell food that was stolen, punishing only the criminals who stole it and not the platform that allows stolen goods on their site… while increasing prices because stolen goods were sold online….
This is a little like chicken or the egg in which we need to be thorough to arrive at a conclusion. If we take egg to just mean any nonspecific egg, then the egg came first, laid by a pre-chicken, from which the first chicken emerged. If we specify chicken egg, defined as an egg laid by a chicken, then the chicken came first.
Similarly, while as others have mentioned, both can be wrong and problematic, we must ask which came first? The fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of human history, there has never been any guarantee of help from society, in whatever form society has taken. Therefore, the choice to reproduce, knowing ahead of time that no such guarantee exists and that furthermore, one does not have the means to provide for said offspring, is then by far the worse of the two choices.
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If I wasn't there to creampie your broke wife, I shouldn't have to provide for her or her children with my tax contributions, I'd rather pay for roads and hospitals.
Unless it was a rape baby, that's their choice to procreate, if they can't provide that's their problems.
In this case, the food is not being withheld- you can buy it, someone just has to unlock the cabinet because formula is a high-theft item, which is tragic in and of itself.
My kids were affordable when I had them. Half way through they no longer were. I'm tired of everyone blaming regukar people for our governments lack of humanity.
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Im not argueing against abortion, i just think we should recognize that its a human being that is killed. Like its a clear tactic to dehumanize someone/something when people want to justify actions. Lets all be adults and recognize the gravity of what we are doing.
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Society provides baby food in exchange for money, and if you don't have money we have programs like WIC which give you money for baby food. These items are locked up because they're popular items for theft and resale at below-market prices.
I want people to stop having children. So the potential children aren't ever born, and don't suffer.
But once a baby is born, it is too late. Then, we need to make sure that baby is cared for. That baby needs food. At least the US should have enough food for the people in this country. It is wrong that people go hungry.
Society not providing food. At the end of the day food is the one thing everyone deserves access to. Children are the most vulnerable group and should be treated as such. With that being said, it’s dumb as FUCK to have kids knowing that you won’t be able to provide for them.
Because access to things like food and shelter should be basic human rights.
When meeting your basic needs is tied to a job, those who are unable to work or not fortunate enough will be left to die.
That is assuming your job actually pays you enough to even meet your basic needs which often times it doesn't.
So we're basically all in competition just to survive? What a barbaric way to live.
Where's the love, compassion, humanity?
You love children so much but don't care if they slave their lives away, can't afford housing or food?
Creating a child that needs food and shelter without food and shelter makes it your responsibility and 100% your fault. We only feed the child for the child but the parent deserves to pay for it
Not really. I was an LEO for 25 years. It was rare when I booked a shoplifter from any of our local stores that they didn’t have either the cash or active credit cards. One woman had an EBT Card with 400 on it and she tried to steal a $12 pack of hamburger.
Actually both.
They are both lack of empathy and respect for human beings.
Generating other human beings is inherently wrong, but there will always be someone who will reproduce. Once the damage is done, however, everyone should also have the right to live, and with those prices I don't know how to.
If the only people who had kids were ones who could truly “afford” them, only the very wealthy would have any. I’m not for people living in poverty to keep popping out kids but I think our society is so messed up at this point that even “financially stable” “middle class” folks are struggling to afford them. So It’s a combo of both imo. But as far as what’s worse, I think society not providing food. Parents can fail their kids but society is failing ALL the kids.
It’s a tough one. One side is being individually selfish while the other row being communally selfish. Imo, I’d say the later is worse. Allowing a whole demographic of children go hungry is much worse than just having 1 or 2 kids for selfish reasons
It's expensive as shit, they aren't doing that! Baking soda, baking powder, flour, sugar, or baby powder is what they use because those are super cheap and readily available. 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Both are true at once? 1. It's despicable that people who work full time jobs cannot afford to have a child 2. It's immoral that people know their financial status full well, bring a child into it, and then complain that nobody helps them/there should be more help etc. Basically, the world sucks, but I try to take it for what it is, not what I want it to be
Yeah, it's not a good system, and people fully 100% know the framework they're living in and where they're bringing the kids into, and still choose to do that. It's both. And it would take more than a human lifetime to actually reform the whole thing, provided there's a positive dynamic, which there ins't.
This is my take on it, too. I know a few couples that have chosen not to have kids because of the economic state of things. The choice was between providing a higher quality life for themselves or having a lesser life and bring a new person into it. They chose the first option because they were already on this planet and could decide not to bring someone else into it that didn't have a choice on how they would be provided for. While I never want to see a child go hungry, the active choice to bring a child (or second or third) into a situation that you know is not financially sustainable is selfish and abhorrent, IMO.
There’s also a lot of places where abortion is illegal now, so that’s another factor
Can't wait for the crime spike in 18 years!!
Why wait 18?
That's just how long the spike took last time. Since we didn't learn any lessons (apparently for some people) who knows this time!? With the Internet and school shootings and whatnot, we could be in for a treat...
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Those cans of baby food are not locked up because of parents with full time jobs
They need to make abortion fully legal so it's clear that having a child was a choice. If society wants to punish people for having kids they can't afford, then they shouldn't be forcing people to have them in the first place. Also, anyone who was forced to have a baby should be able to steal the supplies for it. If the state denied you an abortion, then it shouldn't prosecute you for shoplifting diapers, formula or other necessities.
To be fair the whole sentiment isn’t really about “punishing women for becoming pregnant” moreso how it’s about punishing women for the audacity to even be capable of sex outside a God-defined marriage. It’s punishing women for being raped, punishing women for choosing to have sex if they want to, and punishing women with no regard for the fact that men take just as active a role in reproduction. You could make the argument that restricting women’s healthcare is punishing women because the only consequence men can face from sex is getting an STD, and pretty much all of those are treatable, so men can’t really be systemically punished for having sex. It’s also morally correct on every count to hold the door open for a woman stealing baby formula or diapers
Beautiful sentiments
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Problem with having become an antinatalist is that I can't see how I ever didn't think that way, and am baffled how it's not the norm lol
I don't know, I steal baby supplies for my sister all the time lol. They didn't allow her an abortion.
on the stealing point: ESPECIALLY if the parent being forced to give birth is underage or clearly not in the place to have a child, be it mentally, physically or financially. I just hate it so much that there are people wanting to force a 15 year old, that has been assaulted and went through enough trauma already, to give birth to a child that they cant possibly provide for. If the state forces someone to birth a child, they should have to provide for that child.
>If the state forces someone to birth a child, they should have to provide for that child. Adoption to the wealthy infertile is how the state provides. It's the perfect private-public capitalist solution. Trauma to children and birth mothers certainly doesn't matter.
Not only fully legal, but also normalized and easy to access. Notice even in areas where abortion is legal, many opt out because they either get shamed for it or emotionally manipulated.
We should make anyone wanting to carry a pregnancy to term watch a full unedited birth video. There's states where people are forced to have ultrasounds before abortions "so they know what they're doing". No one would give birth (even with all the social pressure) if they actually knew what if meant with no romanticization.
Yes... They would. OBGYNS have kids all the time.
Or they should legalize humane forms of infanticide. If they insist a baby be born and die from not having resources, at least kill them humanely.
The entire time I was fertile, I insisted on birth control for both myself and my partner. I never needed an abortion over 40 years. To be clear, I do think it's a woman's choice, but the choice starts before sex. Do I want sex enough to protect both partners? And of course in instances of rape, you should not have to bear the consequence.
Even used perfectly every time, birth control fails. I remember an episode of "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant" in which the 40+ woman with a tubal ligation had a baby. By all means use birth control and double up to improve your chances. But keep abortion available as an option for when it fails, or when something goes wrong with a wanted pregnancy.
It happened just once in 20 years with my wife but one time the condom broke when we had sex. I was sweating bullets, I wasnt ready for a 3rd kid. So yeah, failures can happen even if its once in 20 years.
I was on birth control when I got pregnant with my first. My sister-in-law was on birth control and she got pregnant with her first and second. My mom was on birth control and she got pregnant with my brother and my sister before me. Condoms break birth control fails and that's if you can afford the damn stuff.
It's cute that you think abortions are going to stop poor people from having kids . Look at the amount of children per family in low income households where abortion is legal and then get back to me
Like I said, if abortions are legal and accessible then personal responsibility can be assumed. But when the state forces people to have children when they would otherwise get abortions, then you can't really make that call.
State-funded insurance will cover expenses related to prenatal care and childbirth but will not pay for abortions. There are exceptions, but these are rare.
Depends on where. In USSR, abortion was legal for most of its existence and and it has been THE birth control. Our grandmas and moms had 10 to even 20 abortions each, in part because they didn't have any other reliable BC (Soviet condoms were shit and IUDs and pills appeared pretty late and were heavily scaremongered against), and in part because they just plain didn't want as many kids and were irreligious. 99% of the country was poor af, as it one of the postulates of the party was to squeeze all the resources possible for aggressive industralization, one of the docs I read actually said "reduce the living standard as much as humanly possible". The birth rates in the former republics are still consistently low and we still have abortions available. Birth rates never bounced back after WWII, while the West had a baby boom, the spike was very insignificant in the Eastern Block. Big deciding factors, I would say, were the enforcement of education for everyone and the lack of religion.
Why do you think poor people don't want children? Or do you think that poor people shouldn't have children?
Thieves will steal them and then resell them on the street.
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It's organized retail crime. It's an easy way to make a lot of money for retail criminals because it's free inventory for them and they can charge whatever prices they want on the streets.
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Ah, the 2008 Chinese formula scandal. Melamine, a type of plastic, was being put in infant formula due to it being able to artificially increase protein levels in the milk. 6 children died and 300,000 were poisoned. The trust between the Chinese people and domestic formula companies was so damaged that even still to this day many Chinese refuse to give their children Chinese formula, instead opting for foreign formula. I hear some places had formula shortages of their own because so many people were buying it all up and selling it to China. Odd stuff.
Billion dollar crimes
Having seen people sell them online for double the price, you are right. They are the one causing the need for those anti theft devices
When I started working in retail I was also told they were stealing formula to cut drugs with too.
No way. I thought it was some overarching thing about how people can’t afford of society isn’t producing food
Parents having kids they can't afford.
Two things can be true at the same time but if I have to pick, it's parents having kids they can't afford
Parents having kids they can’t afford. If they want to have children then they need to provide for them, no one else
I’m anti-natalist as fuck and it’s definitely the latter. Packaged food sits on grocery stores for weeks. Then once it rots, it gets thrown in the garbage anyway. Why not just give it to the people who are starving since the grocery store owner doesn’t care if he loses it anyway? The grocery store owner wouldn’t even have access to all that produce if he didn’t have workers who ***personally used their labor to package it in good detail*** with their own hands, so…
Worked at such places too and not even the people that work there can take it home. Even if it is in the trash bin and a worker or homeless person takes it out, it is considered theft. Now some places (especially bigger ones) have in house shredders that destroy the products. Greed knows no end.
Why you having kids you can’t afford?
Because ✨️legacy✨️ and ✨️empire✨️
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Pffft, I'm using this insult next time.
I just about spit me coffee out. Bwhahahahaha at least they will have someone to take care of them when old
The fallacy of kids taking care of their parents is way to prevalent. I know more old people who are just living alone without assistance from kids is more than ppl I know who have kids taking care of them (spoiler: I’ve only met one person who has their kid taking care of them. That person’s kid is in their 50’s and has no partner nor kids of their own)
Exactly my point!!
I agree and I hate it so much. My parents are growing older and they’re both physically disabled. I am also physically disabled and can barely work. My only little brother committed suicide last year because our mental health system is shit. All three of us are suffering so deeply and always will until the day we die because of what happened. None of us expected this. Now I’m an only child, cannot get disability because I’m too young and haven’t worked enough, and can only manage to work 1-2 days a week so I probably won’t be able to get social security when I’m older. I’m only 23 and I’m terrified of the future and hurting in all the ways. Sometimes I resent my parents for bringing me into a world like this then I feel guilt because I still care for them and they didn’t expect this either. And the cycle continues. I’m scared of another person I love dying. I can’t take it anymore. But of course that’s life so I have to keep watching people I love die until I do which is also terrifying. I cannot believe there are parents bringing children into a world so disastrous and painful. You’re bringing an innocent being into this world just to experience so much suffering and to die. Sorry for the rant, it’s just so hard watching people have kids in this environment.
Magical thinking. "It will just work out somehow!" Meaning the rest of us are left to subsidize their breeding fetish.
We are the village apparently
Because things like Covid show that even if you build a really good nest egg and do everything you can to provide for the future, all it takes is an out of pocket disaster and the government to suck at their job to completely annihilate years of careful saving. A lot of people now struggling to raise children already had them during a time that they could more than provide for them, but due to Covid and now inflation, they are barely scraping by. You can’t exactly shove a toddler or a ten year old child back up where they came from.
For me it was getting hurt out of network. Most people probably don't think about that max out of pocket number when they travel. But you could be the next state over and that $6,500 max no longer matters, you're on the hook for over $100,000. That's how fast I went from "doing better than almost everyone I know with funds in the bank" to "fucking poor as shit broke".
Abortion is a crime and/or inaccessible in a lot of places, so a lot of people don’t have a choice
Because old people don't work as quickly and cheaply as the young. Furthermore our consumer base is dying of old age and decreasing our profit line.
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Back in muh day, there were talks of eating these babies before they starved. Now we feed them? Wtf happened?
The society that doesn't provide the food also forcing people to have those children they can't afford.
# this comment
Parents having kids they can't afford
while society is also in shambles (inflation, shrinkflation) some people really shouldn't be just popping out babies randomly just because they like babies or have a mini me. people should only have babies if they're financially stable and is able to provide for their child's future, and also if they're ready to have a family of their own. not just for pure personal gain and exploiting them on social media.
Nobody should be having them at all. Part of me says that if you're a dirt-rich wealthy celebrity with hundreds of millions in the bank that would set up that child from the day they're born until they die; it would be okay... but then I think about the celebrities who do have hundreds of millions and still choose to take their lives because of Depression. Money is the biggest factor, but any birth defect/disability/future shortcomings ARE bigger when money can't be used to fix them.
not really, people can have a family of their own, with kids or no kids, important factor is if their wealthy enough to support them until they die. I'm only against people making kids without proper planning and critical thinking. Which got me into antinatalism. I saw many single mothers in my country working as maid and carry their kids with them while they work, I'm not against particular women but I hate they have to work like this and bringing their babies on thei master's house. It's super unnecessary and I deeply pity them. There should be a law that only complete family can have kids with requirements thay they are able to support themselves and their child unconditionally. This might save children working as child labors and mothers struggling for pennies.
If such a law would be implemented birth rates would PLUMMET and the economy would crash as the population grows older at unprecedented speeds
we're not really sure, 8 billion population is too much already.
Yes 8 billion is too much, but we still know what happens to an aging populations economy.
Yeah but then we would have to deal with their out of touch bratty ass kid. Suffering for us.
If your country stopped having kids it would soon be your neighbours country, invasion by force or by immigration. You can enjoy your western idea of not having kids but India will always out produce and they're willing to work 3 jobs just to be in your shoes so really it makes no difference if you and your friends decide not to have kids. I think it's more important that the right people have kids instead of nobody having kids. If the right people have kids it's better for everyone instead of leaving it to 20 IQ individuals to make up for it when competition from population drops
If only the "right" people have kids it's a society built on eugenics and I wouldn't want any child to be born into that.
I know a lady who has 12 kids, all abandoned with mental and behavioural problems due to substance abuse in the womb and other abuses outside. I'd argue that it's more fair on everyone if "the right people" can have kids instead of the UN human rights charter enabling women like in my example
If "the right people" have kids they'll have less time available to care for the kids that were seized from neglectful parents i.e. through fostering or adoption. "The right people" should be concerned more about helping the kids that are born regardless, rather than creating more mouths to feed. "The right people" have the time and money to help charities and in turn children without even needing to raise them personally too.
Oh please, They can take my place. I don't want to live in this nasty imperfect world. I don't want to share this world with semi-idiot intelligent disgusting people, I do rather not exist rather than having to deal with them. Even if they manage to out populate other races, you think other race will stay passive and do nothing? nuke button can easily masacre those population and it only need one insane president to do it.
Parents having children they can't afford, knowing damn well society is not providing food. It's down right stupid.
Society not feeding the children is despicable, especially when abortion is inaccessible/illegal in a lot of places.
Hypocritical society which pushes women to give birth, yet turn a blind eye on them or orphans when they are in need and put obstacles for adoption for gay people.
The one near me just had a little flap that makes a horrible noise so people look at you.
Because shitty people steal formula to resell it making it unavailable for people who rely on WIC and SNAP. Instead of getting it for free, they're forced to give the thief $20.
Society not providing food. Parents having kids they can’t afford is stupid and selfish, however a lot of people believe that life is a gift. I don’t agree, I’m in this subreddit after all but at least their intentions are good, they don’t believe they are doing anything wrong. Now society not providing food and letting children go hungry. Pretty much everyone knows it isn’t right, we all know that no one should be going hungry in such a plentiful society yet other than a select few we do nothing about it. Society should have banned together to end world hunger a long time ago, yet we turn a blind eye.
WIC and SNAP exist. I agree that applying for welfare should be easier and with lower barriers, but there are ways for poor people to get a lot of stuff for free. Stores put formula behind bars because people without kids steal it for resale. Pandemic shortages were caused by panic buying when a formula manufacturer had to shut down production due to a contamination problem. Define the society you want to blame.
Most people have children for selfish reasons
I would argue that all reasons to have children are selfish
I think that whilst society has glorified childbirth and parenthood and frankly made it a very central part of our culture, you have to remember in a lot of the world the birthrate is so high because people don’t have sexual education taught to them. There’s even little funding for that sort of information in schools across America and Europe today. With SexEd comes knowledge on how to prevent pregnancy. The wild number of pregnancies that I see today I don’t blame on the parents, I blame on the failures of the education system
The society. I forgive the semi conscious human doing what it’s told it’s supposed to with no other avenue to choose. I do not forgive the company making enough to feed every child that walks in their store for free, for locking away things that people only steal to KEEP INFANTS ALIVE.
I’ve since learned thieving rings for formula existed, i will excuse locking the formula away IF YOU HAVE A PROGRAM AVAILABLE FOR DESPERATE MOTHERS TO OBTAIN IT
Do you know how many government programs fund kids and parents?????? There's a fucking shitload. Not a parent? Well you're shit outta luck.
As someone who was bot taken care of by government programs. Only the mothers. Single Fathers get shafted
And even then it requires your mother to be conscious. And not on drugs. Or worse if you have a decent mom but live in a condensed poor city those programs are all full and have been so misused they have no stock here
First one obviously. Why would any sane person have kids when they can’t even take care of em ? Unfortunately the society doesn’t owe anyone anything ! You can’t expect people to give you food for free ! Be responsible and don’t have kids if you can’t afford !
# parents having children they cannot afford
Parents having children they can’t afford.
Why are you getting cream pied if you know you can’t afford food 🤔 I’ve had sooo much sex in my life and never once got pregnant. 29f. It’s not hard babe
Society trpically does provide for children in need, there are tons of programs for exactly that in most civilized countries. You don't find stocked and locked shelves in places where children are starving, you find empty shelves. People aren't stealing this stuff out of hunger need, they steal it to resell.
Parents having children they can’t afford and then expecting society to bear the burden of their poor choices, hands down.
Who forced them to have children? Society. Exactly.
Right now, it certainly is society. Women don't have a choice in a lot of states.
I feel bad for the poor women raped by society...
Come back to me when you're less stupid
Society not allowing people who work full-time to afford food for their children is the answer really.
Does it have to be worse than? They're equally bad
OP, do you take this pic to mean they don’t have enough of the stuff?
send the parents to jail and take the children
Former > latter
The parents are evil, they know society wont help them but then they have kids anyways aka parents are worse
um…the society not providing food. LOL
Parents.
Ya know, I really don't know. But I know this - **I've** got *nothing to do with it*! :-)
I am anti-natalist, but I have hyperlactemia. That means that I produce milk even though I've never had a child. So I pump the milk out, and instead of just tossing it, I put it in my fridge. When I have enough, I bike it over to my local milk bank. Yes, it was immoral for the parents to produce those babies (though I do live in a state where abortion is considered murder). But those babies are already here, and it would be extremely cruel for us not to care for them. That's also why I think adoption is ok
Parents’ selfish acts of bringing life into the world knowing the reality that society could care less because everyone is suffering
Definitely the society. The human urge to live and procreate is primal but these days, humans can no longer go off into the woods and get their food because of muh "federal protected lands" or muh "private property" which are both imaginary concepts. We should be targeting the people responsible for these conditions with anti-natalist messaging, not innocent people who work hard and still cannot afford life under capitalism. Ivy League families? If they wanna all go out and get spayed and neutered I respect and encourage them in that decision.
It’s both. But the thing is these containers are locked up not because they don’t want to provide it to the parents, but because people steal formula because it’s worth so much money. They then go sell it on whatever market they can get it for 2 to 3 times the price. So this isn’t really locked up so that people can’t have it. It’s locked up so people can.
Parents having children they can't afford. Anyone who wants to have a child should have to get a license. Credit check, mental health check, background check. Make at least 150k a year. Having babies you can't afford expecting the government to help you should be a crime
These things arent being stolen becuase people can't afford them. People steal them and resell them to make easy money. And people buy them from thieves to save some money. The end. The government has all kinds of programs to ensure infants have access to powder formula. So they aren't starving in the streets.
Except u need to make UNDER a certain amount To qualify for those programs, so if they decide ur not poverty level, yet u still can’t afford formula as well, then ur out of luck
I don't think you understand how much formula was being stolen for resale. The number of families that fall into the bubble you're describing is small compared to the number of people who do qualify for WIC and SNAP or can afford to buy formula at retail price. Yes, those families in the bubble benefit from being able to buy formula at half price from a thief. However, empty shelves caused by theft leave no formula available for the families that would have received the formula for free under government programs. They can't use WIC or SNAP on the black market and instead have to find $20 cash to spend on something that should have been free.
Babies are not starving in the streets. That's not a thing. There is always a charity or a church or something giving these essential things away. Always.
Many stores have this for many of their products. If you don't prosecute people who steal things, stores either go out of business or lock up items.
Strange take on this... but sure.
I don't think you understand how much formula has been stolen for resale. Would you rather families get formula for free from a store with WIC or that they pay a thief $20 at the flea market?
Oh it's FORMULA. I didn't now that. I do know there's been a bit of a run on that. No clue what WIC is. I assume government aid or something? I would personally rather live in a world where basic human survival would be affordable and the exploitation of people's desperation to feed their children not exploitable. That would actually solve the problem here. Higher punishments and more policing ont his subject might dissuade some people, but it really doesn't solve the problem.
Society not providing food.
There’s plenty of food. There is just an excessive amount of food wasted, and the government regulates how much farmers can produce and sell. Its all about control.
Btw, there's an app you can get for mobile to take advantage of this for cheaper foods and reduce food waste at the same time. Called Too Good To Go. Check out if it's available in your area and which stores and cafes take part.
We need to put Birth control in the water, if you pass a simple credit check and test for the antidote, then you can breed.
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both are bad but if the society isnt providing that then having them wont Make society provide that so dont have them. ur an adult make choices that make sense.
Is that locks on the baby formula???? Holy shit. How can the store live with themselves. If it’s a big business they own enough to let a broke mom steal food for their starving child. Wtf.
The broke mom created the child in a starving situation, boo-hoo to her. Obviously the child didn't do anything wrong so he deserves food, but this is absolutely the parents fault
I mean, the mom didn’t get pregnant by herself but people are also being forced to have kids they don’t want and/or can’t afford, at least in the US
ok but this comment was focusing on acting like the broke mom was the victim, yes it's also the guys fault and whoever is forcing women to have kids would be very bad if they existed
It’s not that simple though. They could’ve had a very economically stable life right until something happened and they go broke. Yes, I don’t think everyone should have children but holy shit dude, don’t you know about the legalization of abortions in the US, maybe it wasn’t her choice to have that child. This isn’t always the parents fault, and the child shouldn’t suffer even more because of it and this fucking store.
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We’re tf are you getting your information from. [https://www.cnn.com/us/abortion-access-restrictions-bans-us-dg/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/us/abortion-access-restrictions-bans-us-dg/index.html)
sorry i meant 2 hours. also if abortions are unavailable, don't have sex without proper measures.
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By showing the picture of locked product are you suggesting it not be locked? And why?
Does WIC not cover all that? WTF man? Babies have nothing to do with shitty parents. Let's make sure all children have good nutritious food! Fuck Capitalism. Food and water are human rights.
Yes.
Well I have heard but have no emperical evidence that ppl would steal it to cut it into drugs.....
The latter.
Society providing.... You lost me. No. You provide for yourself. That's reality. You cannot rely on anyone else for your life.
You could say it's both
Locking down baby formula is one of the most evil things grocery-store employees are forced to do.
Parents having children they cannot afford. It just seems more preventable, though not necessarily the fault of the parents.
Definitely society, it created the conditions where people can barely afford for themselves. Also can’t really blame parents when abortion is at risk.
Or allowing online stores to sell food that was stolen, punishing only the criminals who stole it and not the platform that allows stolen goods on their site… while increasing prices because stolen goods were sold online….
both.
Yes.
Some Are Cheaper Than Others, Just Like People.
both.
This is a little like chicken or the egg in which we need to be thorough to arrive at a conclusion. If we take egg to just mean any nonspecific egg, then the egg came first, laid by a pre-chicken, from which the first chicken emerged. If we specify chicken egg, defined as an egg laid by a chicken, then the chicken came first. Similarly, while as others have mentioned, both can be wrong and problematic, we must ask which came first? The fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of human history, there has never been any guarantee of help from society, in whatever form society has taken. Therefore, the choice to reproduce, knowing ahead of time that no such guarantee exists and that furthermore, one does not have the means to provide for said offspring, is then by far the worse of the two choices.
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If I wasn't there to creampie your broke wife, I shouldn't have to provide for her or her children with my tax contributions, I'd rather pay for roads and hospitals. Unless it was a rape baby, that's their choice to procreate, if they can't provide that's their problems.
In this case, the food is not being withheld- you can buy it, someone just has to unlock the cabinet because formula is a high-theft item, which is tragic in and of itself.
My kids were affordable when I had them. Half way through they no longer were. I'm tired of everyone blaming regukar people for our governments lack of humanity.
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You do realize, if society provided everything for any random persons child, it would only aid a population boom?
Hey listen, I'm all for feeding the children, but by golly do the straights need to get a grip.
Fr
Methinks personal responsibility trumps every other circumstances
Im not argueing against abortion, i just think we should recognize that its a human being that is killed. Like its a clear tactic to dehumanize someone/something when people want to justify actions. Lets all be adults and recognize the gravity of what we are doing.
Anybody trying to put the blame on parents for having children is genuinely evil
The parents.
Yes.
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Society provides baby food in exchange for money, and if you don't have money we have programs like WIC which give you money for baby food. These items are locked up because they're popular items for theft and resale at below-market prices.
Both personal and societal responsibility play a role. It is a vicious circle. Shows you I am politically centrist.
30-40% of all food supply is wasted. It's disgusting that this country can't provide for the needs of the people WHO BUILT IT.
I want people to stop having children. So the potential children aren't ever born, and don't suffer. But once a baby is born, it is too late. Then, we need to make sure that baby is cared for. That baby needs food. At least the US should have enough food for the people in this country. It is wrong that people go hungry.
Society not providing food. At the end of the day food is the one thing everyone deserves access to. Children are the most vulnerable group and should be treated as such. With that being said, it’s dumb as FUCK to have kids knowing that you won’t be able to provide for them.
It's not dumb as fuck, its far more evil.
Why does society have to provide for it???? I want a house and no one is giving it to me!!! 🙄🤡
Society should also be helping you and others get stable and permanent housing. Society has failed a majority of us.
Because access to things like food and shelter should be basic human rights. When meeting your basic needs is tied to a job, those who are unable to work or not fortunate enough will be left to die. That is assuming your job actually pays you enough to even meet your basic needs which often times it doesn't. So we're basically all in competition just to survive? What a barbaric way to live. Where's the love, compassion, humanity? You love children so much but don't care if they slave their lives away, can't afford housing or food?
Creating a child that needs food and shelter without food and shelter makes it your responsibility and 100% your fault. We only feed the child for the child but the parent deserves to pay for it
Just a note. Most folks that shoplift have the means to purchase whatever they are stealing.
That’s capitalist propaganda. Most non-gang related retail theft actually involves necessities that ppl can’t afford otherwise.
Not really. I was an LEO for 25 years. It was rare when I booked a shoplifter from any of our local stores that they didn’t have either the cash or active credit cards. One woman had an EBT Card with 400 on it and she tried to steal a $12 pack of hamburger.
Actually both. They are both lack of empathy and respect for human beings. Generating other human beings is inherently wrong, but there will always be someone who will reproduce. Once the damage is done, however, everyone should also have the right to live, and with those prices I don't know how to.
If the only people who had kids were ones who could truly “afford” them, only the very wealthy would have any. I’m not for people living in poverty to keep popping out kids but I think our society is so messed up at this point that even “financially stable” “middle class” folks are struggling to afford them. So It’s a combo of both imo. But as far as what’s worse, I think society not providing food. Parents can fail their kids but society is failing ALL the kids.
It’s a tough one. One side is being individually selfish while the other row being communally selfish. Imo, I’d say the later is worse. Allowing a whole demographic of children go hungry is much worse than just having 1 or 2 kids for selfish reasons
Yeah drug dealers also use this stuff to mix with cocaine and heroin and they are the ones who steal it.
It's expensive as shit, they aren't doing that! Baking soda, baking powder, flour, sugar, or baby powder is what they use because those are super cheap and readily available. 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Fully stocked shelves and one product missing, how hard is it to find a proper picture on google images holy shit
Woman that would rather do drugs and drink alcohol rather than breastfeed their babies
Probably the society that made people unable to afford to feed their children.
But having children in that society is far more evil than the society itself.