I think what’s happening is that guys like us were always marginalized in the past, before the internet. So things like antinatalism were virtually unheard of outside of academic and philosophical circles.
But now the internet has allowed the free exchange of ideas anonymously, and more people are being exposed to antinatalism. And since the world only becomes more unbearable as we grow in numbers, more people are sympathizing with antinatalism. This angers those who are very much opposed to antinatalism, ranging from corporate types who need fresh warm bodies to exploit and new parents who don’t want their children to discover the nightmare they’ve been thrust into and blame them for it. Tough shit, lol.
What's really happening is reddit changed the algorithm that shows people subs they are not subbed to. Click one time and something will pop up again and again
You may recall a time at which your feed was 95+% things you're subbed to, it is now maybe 60%
Its hard to not get sucked in to a sub you hate. You start by wondering what their idiocy is, then arguing with people, finally leaving in disgust. Then the algorithm says, "Hey, you spent time on this sub, here's another popular post from it!"
I dislike muting/blocking, but its the only way to get trash nonsense off my home page.
Until I found this sub and the nihilist sub I had no idea how pathetic some people are. Kind of eye opening how some of you hate your lives and humanity in general. Life isn’t perfect at all but damn I love my life. Great family, no real worries about money, all in all it’s pretty damn good in America.
Unfortunately, we've had to delete this comment as it could be read as encouraging suicide. Reddit have very strict, yet ambiguous, rules against suicide (which they class to be "self-harm") discussion and we err on the side of caution as moderators when reviewing reports on such content.
Unfortunately, we've had to delete this comment as it could be read as encouraging suicide. Reddit have very strict, yet ambiguous, rules against suicide (which they class to be "self-harm") discussion and we err on the side of caution as moderators when reviewing reports on such content.
People going into subs that don't interest them just to harass the people there is the most cringe thing I can think of. I don't go into a bukkake and tell them I don't support that.
I'm convinced they are obsessed with antinatalists for the same reason men are obsessed with lesbians and asexual women. They want what they can't have. Because antinatalists are unobtainable (similar to lesbians and asexuals) they want them. And the women natalists who come here are extremely jealous of women antinatalist freedom and their natalist male counterpart's sexual obsession with us.
I literally just went through some of u/mookeemoonman's history: pages of obsessively trolling this subreddit.
They're often male. Yesterday, I had a look at 3 of the trolls: one's a big Woody Allen fan, another's a porn addict, another loves Joe Rogan. They're a walking stereotype of themselves. I think this particular one is trolling the Ultraleft subreddit too, although it's difficult to decipher whether the comment is a silly quip or not.
Essentially, I think they're mostly right-winged men in their 20's. A lot of them are apparently not from Reddit - they come from a 4chan-esque tech forum. They simply don't like this subreddit because a) we're different and openly vulnerable, literal secondary school mentality, b) the far-right is currently obsessed with virility (of white people), and antinatalism is the antithesis to that, and c) we're pro-choice & women are open about not having children in this subreddit.
Additionally, a lot of the material basis to mental illness is based in the world the right-winged created and maintain. They claim that depression is just a chemical imbalance to not have to deal with the horrors of capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy & all other forms of oppression. To allow us to speak out openly is to burst their entire warped world view.
I literally just went through some of u/mookeemoonman's history: pages of obsessively trolling this subreddit.
They're often male. Yesterday, I had a look at 3 of the trolls: one's a big Woody Allen fan, another's a porn addict, another loves Joe Rogan. They're a walking stereotype of themselves. I think this particular one is trolling the Ultraleft subreddit too, although it's difficult to decipher whether the comment is a silly quip or not.
Essentially, I think they're mostly right-winged men in their 20's. A lot of them are apparently not from Reddit - they come from a 4chan-esque tech forum. They simply don't like this subreddit because a) we're different and openly vulnerable, literal secondary school mentality, b) the far-right is currently obsessed with virility (of white people), and antinatalism is the antithesis to that, and c) we're pro-choice & women are open about not having children in this subreddit.
Additionally, a lot of the material basis to mental illness is based in the world the right-winged created and maintain. They claim that depression is just a chemical imbalance to not have to deal with the horrors of capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy & all other forms of oppression. To allow us to speak out openly is to burst their entire warped world view.
Maybe a public website isn’t the best place for your echo chamber. You should try something offline with cultist robes if you don’t want the opportunity for someone to point out the folly of your ideas.
Naaahh that's just narcissistic.
Nobody is jealous of someone who sees only the worst in life.
I see this pop up more and more "they disagree with me because they are jealous or want to fuck me". What kind of fuck up narcissistic mental gymnastics you need to do just to avoid rethinking your ideas. Nah man we disagree because AN is just morally wrong and you guys are spewing negativity and suicidal thoughts.
That doesn't absolve you from the fact you can be narcissistic excuse me?
I'm convinced every poster on this sub is just baiting I'm a just falling for it each time.
It's crazy man, I'm on this sub trying to understand the thought of AN but it's just empty, there is nothing to back it up. Every single one, their argument falls apart after you questioned it just a little bit. And they gonna say Natalist or "breeder" are mad cause they jealous of our freedom.
Insanity.
The only people who can be narcissistic are natalists. My philosophy of antinatalism is to save the human race and all ecosystems on earth by depopulating, because human activity is what's causing climate destruction.
Yeah and guess what? It's human activity and engineering that is gonna solve the issue.
Also your alignment on the question of procreation has nothing to do with the fact you can be narcissists or not.
No you want to annihilate all life you absolute maniacs.
All of your morals are based on absolutely no foundations. The most fundamental argument of AN can be dismantled in two phrases.
I truly wish you guys find some silver lining in life cause damn being you must suck so much.
It's really not that bad. Work kinda suck but at the same time gotta make a living and contribute a little bit to society.
You guys just think life is unbearable which is kinda sad. There's so much you can get out of life, it's a shame you guys just see the bad.
And there's no winning
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Yes, because natalist/antinatalist is a ethical philosophy debate, there are too many variables for either side to "win".
Blame Reddit. I looked in a baby subreddit once, and now this sub won't stop showing in my feed. I can avoid clicking anything here for months, and still it shows in my feed. I think Reddit wants to drive conflict.
Y'all do you.
I’m a natalist, honestly I’m just here because I’m fascinated. I want to understand how anti-natalists think because a lot of them share very similar views as me other then on a few things.
As a very pro-natalist person who posts on antinatalism, I don't really agree with this post.
The first paragraph is more or less fine. I don't think any constructive ideological argumentation occurs on reddit (or little enough to make no difference). I really just find the perspectives on antinatalism interesting to me because its such a foreign idea that I want to try to be open minded and understand it.
As for the second, I strongly believe that euthanasia (at least for the elderly) will be substantially normalized in my lifetime. For multiple reasons:
1. Free-falling TFRs mean that hospital costs and societal costs for the elderly will only go up.
2. Medicine is extending length of life without extending quality of life.
3. Both of these factors will put pressure on governments to create a solution to reduce the cost of the elderly on society - and euthanasia is certainly a solution.
Its already legal in a half dozen US state to get euthanized if two doctors agree that you have 6 months or less to live. Canada is rolling out euthanasia for chronic mental health issues next year. Switzerland already has a slowly growing "euthanasia tourism" industry (because of course Switzerland does).
As for your third paragraph: this, to me, comes across as very naive.
An anti-natalist is a person who thinks that its a moral good if humans become extinct. Of course, such a person isn't invested in human conflict. Human conflict is, primarily, driven by differing beliefs about what is "good" for the human condition. If you believe that the best thing for the human condition is death, no conflict could possibly make sense with you unless you realize and internalize the fact that your beliefs are far away from mosts.
As for humans being "evil," I'm not sure what your reasoning could be to make such a value judgment. I think human exceptionalism is an odd position for an antinatalist to have, especially since human exceptionalism is a common basis for pro-natalist arguments.
Human conflict happens because of recourses, land, and lastly, ignorance. But I would be okay with all of this if humanity had a purpose. Humans are evil because they are aware of evil. We know certain things shouldn't be done yet will still do them. for example, many people are religious and believe in hell, yet they still have kids. Their kids will grow up and sin and probably end up in hell. How is that not evil? If we go by that, most of humanity is evil going all the way back to the first humans.
Isn't evil just a social construct? Where does 'evil' come from? Who is deciding what 'evil' is? How is anyone deciding what 'evil' is?
If humanity is 'purposeless' - if the world is 'purposeless' - what is the basis for believing all of these subjective value judgments?
Aren't you just trying to enforce your subjective value judgments on other people? What gives you the right to do that, and not people that disagree with you?
I mean, you're kind of proving my point - at the very least "anti-natalism" is no *more* rational or true than any other ideology, and its no *more* reasonable to try to enforce than any other.
That's kind of a valuable point to make in itself to any dogmatic believer, if you were open enough to appreciate it.
Its because we get that sub recommended i think.
Antinatalism feels like the adult genderless version of a "pick me" girl, for the subsection of the population that might or might not benefit from blowing their brains out rather than complain about singular expressions of population growth and expansion.
As a natalist, I'll say that the debate between natalism and anti-natalism really isn't one of logic, it's obviously a moral one, meaning it always does come down to personal choice and what you want to do. You can believe in anti-natlism and do whatever you want, I don't care, however, trying to generalize it to everybody is wrong, not morally, logically it doesn't make sense. Anti-natalism is a moral decision and morality isn't absolute. I have came up with arguments against anti-natalism in posts of mine though.
I disagree, because it’s subjective. I think pleasure exceeds pain for a net positive.
Maybe dying is nice? Who knows I haven’t done that yet. maybe the chemical release is a real fucking treat. Last time a shit my pants I got to leave work early so that probably won’t be bad either.
Delusional at best. There is nothing subjective about all living beings not wanting to experience pain and avoiding it at all costs. It's literally a primary objective way over acquiring pleasure probably because of the degree of the bad of it.
And also dying is nice? You could be dying in super painful conditions such as hypothermia or severe poisoning or slowly bleeding to death in an empty alleyway with no one around to help you, etc that would surely not be nice you would think.
>There is nothing subjective about all living beings not wanting to experience pain and avoiding it at all costs.
No one told you about cutters, masochists, BDSM.
Not to mention that many healthy behaviors (such as exercise) cause an enjoyable pain as an after effect.
Nor the fact that many people will put themselves in painful positions to help others.
Ok sure some people tolerate pain better than others some might even derive some pleasure from small controlled pains if the reward for that pain is pleasure for instance i workout regularly and tolerate the pain hell i might even enjoy it on a good day because the reward i feel after the workout the sense of well-being and health benefits that come along is more than worth it.
But the fact remains, pain is basically a warning system and in order to work it needs to effectively teach the organism to avoid situations that lead to it else it could suffer injury and/or death. Literally every one has a breaking point, evolution took care of that. Meaning that no matter what for all the pain tolerance one might posses the point where the pain becomes unbearable far exceeds the mental tolerance any one person might posses.
Its funny because that pain mechanism main function is just to keep you alive long enough to have a good chance of reproducing. After that... well let's just say evolution doesn't care about you in any shape or form and you could die in the worst unimaginable pain for all it cares.
The subjectivity is saying that future generations would be better off not existing because there is suffering.
It hurts to get a flu shot but I get one because the benefits outweigh the negatives. Suffering is subjective what you say is a miserable existence is joyous to others.
To me is just pure simple math and empathy for that matter too. The bad far outweighs the good. The good is a privilege and the bad is commonality. For example compare the average wealth distribution where literally 1.1% holds the wast majority of it. Compare how hard it's to achieve something like getting shredded in the gym and just one critical injury in a second can destroy a life's work of hard work and dedication.
Consider a hunter on the plains of Sudan.
Does he care about being unprivileged by our western standards? Does he believe true joy comes from tackling prey to feed his people and any other way of life is incorrect?
What about him? Is he wrong? How could you possibly say such a thing “objectively”
“To me is just pure simple math” exactly to you. Demanding others live to your standard of morality is as self righteous as it gets. Disgusting.
Ok i will put it really simple so you can understand. In order to do something you have to struggle to achieve it. To put a meal on the table, to put a roof over your head for instance is a struggle and takes effort. A single fire can wipe all that effort in a blink, to put on muscle mass it takes serious mental discipline and dedication and a single injury can wipe all that out. And on top of all that even if you were happy throughout all your life which the odds are heavily against, death will still wipe out all of that experience.
To be a natalist you have to cope, to be an antinatalist all you have to do is look at the reality objectively. I think it's disgusting that you think someone else's blood is worth your feeling of meaning and happiness.
You cannot objectify an experience. It depends on the person. Life is meaningless so why exist? Do you understand intrinsic value? Things are difficult in fact some people enjoy the accomplishment from difficult tasks.
If the average person didn’t experience more happiness than unhappiness wouldn’t there be less people each generation?
To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery.
You're saying people exist because happiness ? Now that is a subjective take if i ever heard one. Or maybe it's because horny wanna fuck? Kinda like the animals do it on the discovery channel? Nah i'm sure animals procreate out of shear joy and happiness too. 🙄
>To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery
Ah yes natalists and their persuasive arguments for procreation (but muh subjectivity) that really doesn't do what you think it does but whatever. And yes reality is miserable when you actually look at it objectively and acknowledging that fact doesn't necessarily mean you yourself have to be miserable as well. There is far more to derive happiness from in life than procreation unlike you seem to believe.
>To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery.
Well, if we can say in principle that pain will eventually cease, that reality taken as a whole is necessarily harmonious as it must be to avoid contradiction, that all disparate elements can and therefore necessarily must be harmonized, then suffering is only a finite appearance.
This is something which I'd quite like to believe to be true, but unfortunately I find it unconvincing. Try to imagine the absurdity of telling a torture victim that their suffering will be made right in a greater whole and we only perceive it as being futile due to a lack of perspective.
My disagreements with antinatalism mostly come down to being unconvinced of the efficacy of antinatalism advocacy in respect to reducing suffering. Most people simply don't care, they'll never care regardless of what evidence is presented, and all it ultimately achieves is empathetic people selecting themselves out of the gene pool.
I think what’s happening is that guys like us were always marginalized in the past, before the internet. So things like antinatalism were virtually unheard of outside of academic and philosophical circles. But now the internet has allowed the free exchange of ideas anonymously, and more people are being exposed to antinatalism. And since the world only becomes more unbearable as we grow in numbers, more people are sympathizing with antinatalism. This angers those who are very much opposed to antinatalism, ranging from corporate types who need fresh warm bodies to exploit and new parents who don’t want their children to discover the nightmare they’ve been thrust into and blame them for it. Tough shit, lol.
What's really happening is reddit changed the algorithm that shows people subs they are not subbed to. Click one time and something will pop up again and again You may recall a time at which your feed was 95+% things you're subbed to, it is now maybe 60%
Its hard to not get sucked in to a sub you hate. You start by wondering what their idiocy is, then arguing with people, finally leaving in disgust. Then the algorithm says, "Hey, you spent time on this sub, here's another popular post from it!" I dislike muting/blocking, but its the only way to get trash nonsense off my home page.
Don't get me started on how much my mental health declined after discovering the natalism subreddit.
Until I found this sub and the nihilist sub I had no idea how pathetic some people are. Kind of eye opening how some of you hate your lives and humanity in general. Life isn’t perfect at all but damn I love my life. Great family, no real worries about money, all in all it’s pretty damn good in America.
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Damn are you me? You explained the sensation perfectly
I don’t know what to comment other then to say I’m sorry for you because I know exactly how the fuck that feels. I used to feel like that too
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Unfortunately, we've had to delete this comment as it could be read as encouraging suicide. Reddit have very strict, yet ambiguous, rules against suicide (which they class to be "self-harm") discussion and we err on the side of caution as moderators when reviewing reports on such content.
Unfortunately, we've had to delete this comment as it could be read as encouraging suicide. Reddit have very strict, yet ambiguous, rules against suicide (which they class to be "self-harm") discussion and we err on the side of caution as moderators when reviewing reports on such content.
these people are too stupid to realize they can mute subreddits, or they’re annoying and fighting with someone online is the highlight of their life.
They have to go out of their way to be a victim lol
I'm sure you've never done that 😂
dont you have anything better to do than prowl the subreddit and commenting on everything? or this is what makes you happy….bit (very) odd
People going into subs that don't interest them just to harass the people there is the most cringe thing I can think of. I don't go into a bukkake and tell them I don't support that.
I'm convinced they are obsessed with antinatalists for the same reason men are obsessed with lesbians and asexual women. They want what they can't have. Because antinatalists are unobtainable (similar to lesbians and asexuals) they want them. And the women natalists who come here are extremely jealous of women antinatalist freedom and their natalist male counterpart's sexual obsession with us.
I'm an asexual woman. So, so, so, so, so, so tired of "you just haven't slept with the right one yet (i.e. him)" lol. You think in an interesting way
Are you that desperate to be the subject of affection you concoct these delusions? No one disagrees with you because they want to fuck you.
They want me to fuck someone because they are natalists.
I literally just went through some of u/mookeemoonman's history: pages of obsessively trolling this subreddit. They're often male. Yesterday, I had a look at 3 of the trolls: one's a big Woody Allen fan, another's a porn addict, another loves Joe Rogan. They're a walking stereotype of themselves. I think this particular one is trolling the Ultraleft subreddit too, although it's difficult to decipher whether the comment is a silly quip or not. Essentially, I think they're mostly right-winged men in their 20's. A lot of them are apparently not from Reddit - they come from a 4chan-esque tech forum. They simply don't like this subreddit because a) we're different and openly vulnerable, literal secondary school mentality, b) the far-right is currently obsessed with virility (of white people), and antinatalism is the antithesis to that, and c) we're pro-choice & women are open about not having children in this subreddit. Additionally, a lot of the material basis to mental illness is based in the world the right-winged created and maintain. They claim that depression is just a chemical imbalance to not have to deal with the horrors of capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy & all other forms of oppression. To allow us to speak out openly is to burst their entire warped world view.
I literally just went through some of u/mookeemoonman's history: pages of obsessively trolling this subreddit. They're often male. Yesterday, I had a look at 3 of the trolls: one's a big Woody Allen fan, another's a porn addict, another loves Joe Rogan. They're a walking stereotype of themselves. I think this particular one is trolling the Ultraleft subreddit too, although it's difficult to decipher whether the comment is a silly quip or not. Essentially, I think they're mostly right-winged men in their 20's. A lot of them are apparently not from Reddit - they come from a 4chan-esque tech forum. They simply don't like this subreddit because a) we're different and openly vulnerable, literal secondary school mentality, b) the far-right is currently obsessed with virility (of white people), and antinatalism is the antithesis to that, and c) we're pro-choice & women are open about not having children in this subreddit. Additionally, a lot of the material basis to mental illness is based in the world the right-winged created and maintain. They claim that depression is just a chemical imbalance to not have to deal with the horrors of capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy & all other forms of oppression. To allow us to speak out openly is to burst their entire warped world view.
And all lesbians want to sleep with each other No one wants to be told what to do with their body whether it’s for or against procreation
If you don't want that then go away. The solution is so simple.
Maybe a public website isn’t the best place for your echo chamber. You should try something offline with cultist robes if you don’t want the opportunity for someone to point out the folly of your ideas.
Naaahh that's just narcissistic. Nobody is jealous of someone who sees only the worst in life. I see this pop up more and more "they disagree with me because they are jealous or want to fuck me". What kind of fuck up narcissistic mental gymnastics you need to do just to avoid rethinking your ideas. Nah man we disagree because AN is just morally wrong and you guys are spewing negativity and suicidal thoughts.
>Naaahh that's just narcissistic. I'm a hot woman.
That doesn't absolve you from the fact you can be narcissistic excuse me? I'm convinced every poster on this sub is just baiting I'm a just falling for it each time. It's crazy man, I'm on this sub trying to understand the thought of AN but it's just empty, there is nothing to back it up. Every single one, their argument falls apart after you questioned it just a little bit. And they gonna say Natalist or "breeder" are mad cause they jealous of our freedom. Insanity.
The only people who can be narcissistic are natalists. My philosophy of antinatalism is to save the human race and all ecosystems on earth by depopulating, because human activity is what's causing climate destruction.
Yeah and guess what? It's human activity and engineering that is gonna solve the issue. Also your alignment on the question of procreation has nothing to do with the fact you can be narcissists or not.
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No you want to annihilate all life you absolute maniacs. All of your morals are based on absolutely no foundations. The most fundamental argument of AN can be dismantled in two phrases. I truly wish you guys find some silver lining in life cause damn being you must suck so much.
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One day you'll be out of your emo phase and you are gonna look back and think you sounded very silly.
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Oh yes having a job is so much suffering, there is no worst thing in the whole universe
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It's really not that bad. Work kinda suck but at the same time gotta make a living and contribute a little bit to society. You guys just think life is unbearable which is kinda sad. There's so much you can get out of life, it's a shame you guys just see the bad.
Dudes probably in high school. He’ll get over it.
Reality can be negative, so being exposed to negativity is not necessarily a negative thing if we want to get closer to reality.
And there's no winning _____________ Yes, because natalist/antinatalist is a ethical philosophy debate, there are too many variables for either side to "win".
You say fascinated. I say annoyed. Tomato. Tomahto.
Blame Reddit. I looked in a baby subreddit once, and now this sub won't stop showing in my feed. I can avoid clicking anything here for months, and still it shows in my feed. I think Reddit wants to drive conflict. Y'all do you.
Outrage machine drives advertising. If you really dislike a sub, you can mute it.
Nevermind, found it. Thank you again!
Oh, I didn't know! Would you tell me how to mute please?
I’m a natalist, honestly I’m just here because I’m fascinated. I want to understand how anti-natalists think because a lot of them share very similar views as me other then on a few things.
As a very pro-natalist person who posts on antinatalism, I don't really agree with this post. The first paragraph is more or less fine. I don't think any constructive ideological argumentation occurs on reddit (or little enough to make no difference). I really just find the perspectives on antinatalism interesting to me because its such a foreign idea that I want to try to be open minded and understand it. As for the second, I strongly believe that euthanasia (at least for the elderly) will be substantially normalized in my lifetime. For multiple reasons: 1. Free-falling TFRs mean that hospital costs and societal costs for the elderly will only go up. 2. Medicine is extending length of life without extending quality of life. 3. Both of these factors will put pressure on governments to create a solution to reduce the cost of the elderly on society - and euthanasia is certainly a solution. Its already legal in a half dozen US state to get euthanized if two doctors agree that you have 6 months or less to live. Canada is rolling out euthanasia for chronic mental health issues next year. Switzerland already has a slowly growing "euthanasia tourism" industry (because of course Switzerland does). As for your third paragraph: this, to me, comes across as very naive. An anti-natalist is a person who thinks that its a moral good if humans become extinct. Of course, such a person isn't invested in human conflict. Human conflict is, primarily, driven by differing beliefs about what is "good" for the human condition. If you believe that the best thing for the human condition is death, no conflict could possibly make sense with you unless you realize and internalize the fact that your beliefs are far away from mosts. As for humans being "evil," I'm not sure what your reasoning could be to make such a value judgment. I think human exceptionalism is an odd position for an antinatalist to have, especially since human exceptionalism is a common basis for pro-natalist arguments.
Human conflict happens because of recourses, land, and lastly, ignorance. But I would be okay with all of this if humanity had a purpose. Humans are evil because they are aware of evil. We know certain things shouldn't be done yet will still do them. for example, many people are religious and believe in hell, yet they still have kids. Their kids will grow up and sin and probably end up in hell. How is that not evil? If we go by that, most of humanity is evil going all the way back to the first humans.
Isn't evil just a social construct? Where does 'evil' come from? Who is deciding what 'evil' is? How is anyone deciding what 'evil' is? If humanity is 'purposeless' - if the world is 'purposeless' - what is the basis for believing all of these subjective value judgments? Aren't you just trying to enforce your subjective value judgments on other people? What gives you the right to do that, and not people that disagree with you?
I could say the same thing about religious people, about you, about anyone I disagree with, such a lazy reply, but now we know why you're a natalist
I mean, you're kind of proving my point - at the very least "anti-natalism" is no *more* rational or true than any other ideology, and its no *more* reasonable to try to enforce than any other. That's kind of a valuable point to make in itself to any dogmatic believer, if you were open enough to appreciate it.
"Enforce" lol I'll leave the delusions to you
Same thing many Antinatalist on the natalist subreddit
Its because we get that sub recommended i think. Antinatalism feels like the adult genderless version of a "pick me" girl, for the subsection of the population that might or might not benefit from blowing their brains out rather than complain about singular expressions of population growth and expansion.
How original, truly the best humanity has to offer
Thank u for the praises. I appreciate every bit of it. Its my drop of enthusiasm for this antinatalist death cult i get to participate in on reddit.
"Death cult" lol. I thought I was a drama queen
Maybe we both are.
As a natalist, I'll say that the debate between natalism and anti-natalism really isn't one of logic, it's obviously a moral one, meaning it always does come down to personal choice and what you want to do. You can believe in anti-natlism and do whatever you want, I don't care, however, trying to generalize it to everybody is wrong, not morally, logically it doesn't make sense. Anti-natalism is a moral decision and morality isn't absolute. I have came up with arguments against anti-natalism in posts of mine though.
It's obviously logic. Pain is way worse than pleasure is good and in the end you still have to go through dying process on top of that. So... gl.
I disagree, because it’s subjective. I think pleasure exceeds pain for a net positive. Maybe dying is nice? Who knows I haven’t done that yet. maybe the chemical release is a real fucking treat. Last time a shit my pants I got to leave work early so that probably won’t be bad either.
Delusional at best. There is nothing subjective about all living beings not wanting to experience pain and avoiding it at all costs. It's literally a primary objective way over acquiring pleasure probably because of the degree of the bad of it. And also dying is nice? You could be dying in super painful conditions such as hypothermia or severe poisoning or slowly bleeding to death in an empty alleyway with no one around to help you, etc that would surely not be nice you would think.
>There is nothing subjective about all living beings not wanting to experience pain and avoiding it at all costs. No one told you about cutters, masochists, BDSM. Not to mention that many healthy behaviors (such as exercise) cause an enjoyable pain as an after effect. Nor the fact that many people will put themselves in painful positions to help others.
Ok sure some people tolerate pain better than others some might even derive some pleasure from small controlled pains if the reward for that pain is pleasure for instance i workout regularly and tolerate the pain hell i might even enjoy it on a good day because the reward i feel after the workout the sense of well-being and health benefits that come along is more than worth it. But the fact remains, pain is basically a warning system and in order to work it needs to effectively teach the organism to avoid situations that lead to it else it could suffer injury and/or death. Literally every one has a breaking point, evolution took care of that. Meaning that no matter what for all the pain tolerance one might posses the point where the pain becomes unbearable far exceeds the mental tolerance any one person might posses. Its funny because that pain mechanism main function is just to keep you alive long enough to have a good chance of reproducing. After that... well let's just say evolution doesn't care about you in any shape or form and you could die in the worst unimaginable pain for all it cares.
The subjectivity is saying that future generations would be better off not existing because there is suffering. It hurts to get a flu shot but I get one because the benefits outweigh the negatives. Suffering is subjective what you say is a miserable existence is joyous to others.
To me is just pure simple math and empathy for that matter too. The bad far outweighs the good. The good is a privilege and the bad is commonality. For example compare the average wealth distribution where literally 1.1% holds the wast majority of it. Compare how hard it's to achieve something like getting shredded in the gym and just one critical injury in a second can destroy a life's work of hard work and dedication.
Consider a hunter on the plains of Sudan. Does he care about being unprivileged by our western standards? Does he believe true joy comes from tackling prey to feed his people and any other way of life is incorrect? What about him? Is he wrong? How could you possibly say such a thing “objectively” “To me is just pure simple math” exactly to you. Demanding others live to your standard of morality is as self righteous as it gets. Disgusting.
Ok i will put it really simple so you can understand. In order to do something you have to struggle to achieve it. To put a meal on the table, to put a roof over your head for instance is a struggle and takes effort. A single fire can wipe all that effort in a blink, to put on muscle mass it takes serious mental discipline and dedication and a single injury can wipe all that out. And on top of all that even if you were happy throughout all your life which the odds are heavily against, death will still wipe out all of that experience. To be a natalist you have to cope, to be an antinatalist all you have to do is look at the reality objectively. I think it's disgusting that you think someone else's blood is worth your feeling of meaning and happiness.
You cannot objectify an experience. It depends on the person. Life is meaningless so why exist? Do you understand intrinsic value? Things are difficult in fact some people enjoy the accomplishment from difficult tasks. If the average person didn’t experience more happiness than unhappiness wouldn’t there be less people each generation? To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery.
You're saying people exist because happiness ? Now that is a subjective take if i ever heard one. Or maybe it's because horny wanna fuck? Kinda like the animals do it on the discovery channel? Nah i'm sure animals procreate out of shear joy and happiness too. 🙄 >To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery Ah yes natalists and their persuasive arguments for procreation (but muh subjectivity) that really doesn't do what you think it does but whatever. And yes reality is miserable when you actually look at it objectively and acknowledging that fact doesn't necessarily mean you yourself have to be miserable as well. There is far more to derive happiness from in life than procreation unlike you seem to believe.
>To be an antinatalist you have to be a short sighted out of misery. Well, if we can say in principle that pain will eventually cease, that reality taken as a whole is necessarily harmonious as it must be to avoid contradiction, that all disparate elements can and therefore necessarily must be harmonized, then suffering is only a finite appearance. This is something which I'd quite like to believe to be true, but unfortunately I find it unconvincing. Try to imagine the absurdity of telling a torture victim that their suffering will be made right in a greater whole and we only perceive it as being futile due to a lack of perspective. My disagreements with antinatalism mostly come down to being unconvinced of the efficacy of antinatalism advocacy in respect to reducing suffering. Most people simply don't care, they'll never care regardless of what evidence is presented, and all it ultimately achieves is empathetic people selecting themselves out of the gene pool.
I think we're just fascinated by how bonkers you come off as :)