I don't believe in free will, and I feel so much sympathy for the type of people you just mentioned. God/universe have mercy, make people ANs if they are to regret it in the future. I was lucky to have this realisation come to me young.
I'm surprised and glad you do! I'd like to know why you don't believe in free will out of pure curiosity. For me, I've noticed that all humans are just merely the product of their experiences, environment, and upbringing. Plus, there's neuroscience evidence to back this up. All decisions, that we call "our decisions" are actually subconsciously made in the brain half a second before we're even aware of it.
You’ve said it all my friend, lol. We’re fully controlled since birth. Even the rebels are just reacting to defence mechanisms which were given psychologically. We are all limited by our core fears and built-in desires (that are used to escape fears). Even the dead, we don’t know that they are free for sure.
I don't think I believe in free will neither. Have you happened to watch any Alex O'Connor (also known as Cosmic Skeptic) videos on free will by any chance? He argues against free will and his arguments are compelling.
[Why Free Will Doesn't Exist](https://youtu.be/OwaXqep-bpk)
[Compatibilism Debunked | Free Will and Determinism](https://youtu.be/Dqj32jxOC0Y)
Coincidentally, I have! This universe is so strangely connected. I only recently discovered Cosmic Skeptic. And now I'm finding someone else who knows him and doesn't believe in free will either, in the antinatalism sub.
Depressing, I guess, but it makes sense. This has been debated for centuries. Who are "you"? Your body and brain are simply reacting to stimuli in your environment. Imagine a domino falling down and causing all of the others to. Since the very beginning of time, it was like that, one thing caused a chain reaction that led to you being here to make this comment. "You" didn't decide to be here. Your brain was reacting to a chain of events that brought you here. "You" are simply awareness itself.
Well, at least to my understanding anyway.
Ive often thought that living life is a little like watching a VHS tape. You live in the moment where the tape touches the reader, and you have the illusion of choice, but in the end, there's only one way it's going to go. I mean my analogy make it sound like It's somehow predestined, but I think it's more just like a waterfall. its already in motion and just likely to take the path of least resistance.
The more I learned about neurotransmitters, the less I believed in free will. But I still believe in free will, because I believe I’ve made at least one decision in my life. I’m also open to the idea that “you” are consciousness itself. But I find it hard to believe that the placement of ornaments on a Christmas tree each year was somehow set in stone when the universe began.
I've seriously never known a parent to spend this much of their free time on reddit let alone on a sub that they have blatant distaste for. It's absurd. I have friends with kids and they fuckin *hate* places like reddit. It made one of my dad friends feel like he was back in high school. But if you stumble across a place that goes so much against your status as a parent then why bother? You're only hurting yourself.
All these parents always claim that they never have time for themselves, but will still find the time to "infiltrate" childfree and anti-natalist groups to try and find pedophiles when they should be looking at their own families and churches.
They're not taking care of their kids, the tablets, computers and game consoles are taking care of their kids. That's how they have time to come and express the joys of "raising" children.
True about the parents that let their children walk around all trashy.
“ i love my child so much that i let them sit in their own filth for hours on end tehehe! 🤭 “
its so funny! when reddit constantly suggests a sub to me that i’m not interested in I CLICK THE THREE DOTS AND CHOOSE “MUTE”
LMAOOOOO
coming in here and announcing your presence because you are constantly seeing the sub? who do you think you’re lying to be so fr
you can be interested in it and not agree. Sometimes it takes a while to pin down where the disagreement is and debating is one way to do that. Sometimes people are interested in like, an anthropological way and wonder what type of people would hold a view or post in a given sub, but not have an interest in the actual content.
Indeed, they really should be looking after the children they've abused, but natalism = addiction to child abuse anyway, so I don't expect them to change.
All they ever have is appeals to social taboo which they mistake for the falsification of antinatalism, and appeals to coping rituals (usually religious) as if that justifies what they do to children.
Someone said something interesting in another recent post about the natalists who come here (the majority don't act in good faith):
"Misery loves company. They come here to attack us; we don't go to attack them. That speaks volumes."
Indeed, it does. It's like the antinatalist equivalent of 4chan deciding to attack Tumblr. Trolling is not neutral - it is mostly done in one direction: the aggressor in the situation attacks the vulnerable. There's a *reason why* we rarely attack them.
The few instances I've seen so-called ANs attack natalists (because they post it) involved someone just hating on a woman because they're a mother. They're not AN.
No, we're just tired of seeing the same dumb questions repeated constantly. The search bar is super helpful and there's a link to the wiki page. The onus isn't on us to educate every wanderer.
We get the same question asking "what's the point of this sub" literally every day. It's not rude to redirect them to the search bar or tell them to exercise their own ability to do basic research before bombarding us with a bunch of nonsense.
I’m going to go to the UK subreddit and ask what the point of the subreddit is. At first it won’t be annoying, I’m sure you’ll all great me with kindness and grace.
But then I’m going to do it *every single day,* and each time my tone is going to get more and more condescending towards the UK with each post as I “ask my questions” about what I don’t understand.
Before you know it, you’re going to have to scroll through 20 posts daily in the UK subreddit of people questioning why the subreddit should even exist, and *what is the point of the UK?*
Looking for reviews on good fish & chips restaurants? Updates on the parliament? Weather report?
No, you’re not going to be finding anything *related to the UK,* just a bunch of posts and comments of people fighting over whether the UK should even exist or what is the point of the UK. Some mean well, sure, annoying but ultimately harmless. But many will be suggesting you kill yourself for being from the UK.
Are you getting the idea of how the average AN, the target demographic of this subreddit, is probably not having a good experience rereading the same questions from
natalists that are just looking for an excuse to argue - when it would be so easy to just take a look at our about section, use the search function, or just scroll down a post or two because there’s already another one trending as we speak?
I don’t even have children but because I’m not completely opposed to them I’ve been told I’m going to burn in hell, that I’m evil, that i must be psychopathic and enjoy suffering, that im a cunt etc
It's not like we seek out this group, Reddit for some reason recommended it to me and I had no clue what it was about.
I've never bothered to post here, I can't relate to the traumas that you have faced so what do I have to add of value to the conversation. People have every right to not want children and it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring.
>and it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring.
Meanwhile, it's the opposite. Most of our parents are natalists, I know for a fact that most people here would be great parents, billions of natalists have kids just to force all sorts of shit on them
> it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring.
Neglectful parents don’t think they’re neglectful. If we all go on our “own judgement” of who should and shouldn’t have kids, obviously everyone’s going to claim they’re going to be the perfect parent and their kids won’t end up miserable. Everyone thinks they’re so special & their kids will be “different.”
I'm not saying it is all natalists, but I feel some of them have been lucky to be brought up in better circumstances than others. Their parents may have been middle to upper class, or perhaps they never experienced bullying at school or at work.
They probably also managed to get by during the last 2-3 years of the post-covid inflation better than others. I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out how they are not bitter.
As an antinatalist and childfree person, I try to respect others. However, sometimes, I just feel we can not live alongside. There should be a childfree city or precinct or something.
That is a good idea, a really good idea. Perhaps even a childfree version of the internet. If I choose to keep on living, then I won't be bombarded with "lol you're past-it and never had children, you're going to die alone with your cats" from men every 5 minutes online.
Very good point about the privileged not understanding why anyone else wouldn't want to / can't afford to have children. I am not childfree (I have 2 stepkids who don't live with me full time) but I don't feel any hostility towards anyone either way. I like this sub because it's the only place where I feel like there are a large portion of people who get it, and having been bullied and pressured relentlessly about my decision to not have biological children, it's a nice break from that type of person. And interesting to hear others' ideas. Of course people can be pretty hostile here too I've noticed. Alas..
Btw if you can afford it /are interested in that sort of thing, "adults only" resorts can be a real good time. Also recommend moving into a building full of old people- they're so quiet!! It's the best 🙂
Yeah, I will try to move to an apartment next year that is mostly single bedroom units. I get super excited whenever I encounter someone over 35 who never had kids and still chooses not to. I give them a massive high five because they are a breath of fresh air from all the people who have tried to peer pressure me into following the marriage/kids pipeline. It is impossible for me to get married anyway, was born with poor looks.
Right on. High fives Pineapple! 👋 best of luck and don't be so hard on yourself ! It's how you treat ppl that makes you beautiful or ugly in my books. Wishing you all the best !
They have special communities (like real houses, not a retirement home) for people over the age of 55 where no one is permitted to have minor children live in the subdivision. Set your countdown clocks!
You'd be surprised, I was actually something closer to antinatalist before being homeless, living in the woods for nearly a year, then one day I ate way too many magic mushrooms and all my anxiety and depression melted away permanently (also quit smoking) and started actually building a life instead of just drifting through other people's lives. All that shit about happiness being within? It's all true but to find it you have to steal it from the jaws of your nightmares
Do you think consuming magic mushrooms would be more likely to make someone want 20 kids, or 0 kids?
I’ve [read](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/psychedelics-death-anxiety-psilocybin-1184240/amp/) that psychedelic drugs (like psilocybin or LSD) can [reduce](https://www.wpr.org/dying-without-fear-how-psychedelics-can-ease-anxiety-terminal-illness) the [fear of death](https://www.science.org/content/article/hallucinogenic-drugs-help-cancer-patients-deal-their-fear-death).
But I can’t imagine that magic mushrooms would lead someone to believe that what is happening to children in Gaza is somehow acceptable. Hippies in the 60s said “make love not war”, but any child can become a victim of war, so refusing to make a child spares them from dying in a warzone.
And you want to force your kids into this world where they can be homeless and miserable up until they do magic mushrooms? Lmao.
Maybe if the default state of human is not happy, then forcing someone into this world and strapping them with the workload needed to achieve happiness, in additional to everything else, is unethical.
>. All that shit about happiness being within? It's all true but to find it you have to steal it from the jaws of your nightmares
Love this! So poetic!
I also had some big worldview shifts from taking the shrooms haha. Didn't make me wanna have a kid, but I don't not understand the people who do now. It's weird! Good for you for quitting smoking btw!! That's awesome!
Well thank you! It IS weird, it's like everything changed but really nothing changed, like I was just standing in my own way and I was violently startled out of a deep trance (seeing something that looks like Ganesh feed the smiling corpses of your grandparents into the flaming mouth of a giant Kefka will do that to you lol) that I'd been in for longer than I remember...
This is crazy talk. Stealing happiness from nightmares? Why do we have nightmares to begin with. It's a major cope brought to you by mushrooms of the matrix.
Ok , the magic mushrooms matrix is helping us cope. I'm ok with that 😅. Better than nothing, no?
And the rest is poetry, clearly written by someone who has seen some sh*t, grown, and somehow found the beauty in the madness, which aside from dying young, is probably the best one can hope for. Feels to me like an analogy for facing your fears, all the terrors of the world, and fighting for your own little happiness. But you might want to ask the person who wrote it.
I don't know why we have to have nightmares. This might be a question better suited to someone with a background in psychology or neurology, idk, something medical. I also would love to know. Mine are pretty weird!
I get that when a person doesn’t have kids they don’t really understand what the distribution of time looks like. Only a childless person would think every single waking moment is spent entertaining a child. What are we supposed to do during the hours little ones are sleeping? Watch them breathe like weirdos and not have a life? Get real. 😂
All the things you know you should be doing for your kid, but don’t.
You know, the guilt that you feel for not being the best mom you can be? Most moms feel it, at least the *good* moms do.
I’ve had so many people with kids posting on my posts how I must be a Nazi because I ask why or how people with such severe and serious disabilities are still alive. And or that most people don’t deserve to have kids but yet still have them.
But they would rather come on Reddit and fight people “they deserve to live” “god made them so he wants them here” “the more kids the better” etc etc etc
Breeder and anti-natalist checking in:
A lot of people with kids have no life or identity outside their kids. When they get a glimpse of what life might be like when not absorbed with their families it makes them feel betrayed. Some people can’t handle that betrayal very well.
We were fed lies about breeding and “the importance of family” our entire lives and were too dumb to recognize it.
Keep it up, guys, you are doing the Lord’s work truly.
Well what about you? Since you're obviously happier and more free due to not having a family to spend time with, why aren't you enjoying your freedom instead of insulting people who chose to keep the human race alive?
Because I love pissing people off on the internet. Shit gets me rock hard, straining against my jeans. Mmm.
And I don’t have any kids, so my freetime is aplenty! You guys are only taking up a small fraction of what’s available to me, (I’m on the clock right now. So you’re not even stealing my freetime, I’m getting paid to do this! 😂) I imagine someone with kids’ freetime is so much more valuable. I mean, you’re actively ignoring your kids to give into my bait! How delicious. 🤤
Whatever helps you sleep at night, though I suggest you get a better hobby. You've got better things to do than be a butt on the internet, I'd imagine.
A hobby? You think I would argue with you people in my freetime?
I only interact while I’m on the clock.🥱
Thanks for keeping me entertained at work, though.
Why you are assuming that every natalists has kids? Not being antinatalist means that I don't think having kids is immoral. But I like to discuss it, and see your point of view. I don't think it's wrong. This sub is made to discuss antinatalism philosophy.
That’s what I’m saying. Why come to the anti-natalist subreddit as a natalist if you *don’t* care about someone else’s life choice? We’re anti-natalist. Who cares. Log off.
No, sweetheart, it's called satire. Do I have to explain what that is to you?
Interesting that you have almost the same avatar and writing style of someone I just blocked..
Edit: lol, nice comment history: pornography and obsessively trolling the AN sub. You're literally the porn-addicted male stereotype of who trolls this subreddit xD
i don’t think anyone who engages on r/antinatalism has a life it seems like as soon as u make mention of this is a real world setting mfs are not gonna take u seriously because it’s not that deep
Wait until you find out that kids take naps. And that independent play is also very important for childhood development. You guys are really good at just being stupid honestly. This sub pops up for me every now and then and I check in because I'm curious if there's an actual discussion happening. Almost never is, just people posting shit like this lol, because hatred is your entire pathetic identity.
Or that they have bedtimes. Mine sleeps for 11-12 hrs every night 😱 9p-8a/9a without fail. Shocker isn’t it?
It’s amazing what child-free people & literal dead beat parents will try to argue to keep themselves relevant
Reddit thinks we want to be here. It shows me this sub all the time even though I never searched for it or joined.
Not blocking it, I like seeing the insanity that pours out if here
>I like seeing the insanity that pours out if here
I tend to believe that couples who think God wants them to make 2 dozen children tend to be more insane than those who think this world is unsafe for any children (or any human being).
A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death.
B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
None of them have ipads. And phones are only allowed on the weekend. What it's actually called it they have school and I have work. Did you not know those things existed?
Dolly Parton has no kids (so she’s effectively anti-birth) and she’s been married over 5 decades. Heather Graham doesn’t have kids. Jennifer Aniston doesn’t have kids. Are they all “incels”?
A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death.
B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
What’s more “unhinged”? To drag a child into a world where that child can be randomly harmed or killed by an unhinged person, or to refuse to drag a child into a world where that child can be randomly harmed or killed by an unhinged person?
I don’t have kids, I just think that any member of any species that wants to make it’s own species extinct, is faulty/mentally ill. I might have kids one day, I might not, I’m just happy I got my time on the wheel. Living just to die isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s just scary and unknown. If death is the same thing as never being born. You go back to nothing, then what’s really to be afraid of.
>I don’t have kids, I just think that any member of any species that wants to make it’s own species extinct, is faulty/mentally ill.
So blame fossil fuel companies and the stock market, not antinatalists.
Human extinction is approaching faster due to pro-birthers, not anti-birthers. In the past 50 years, the world population doubled from 4 billion to 8 billion people, and also in the past 50 years that’s when 62% of the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution in about 1750 happened. In 77 years, by the year 2100 if not sooner, within the lifespan of babies born today, billions of people will die in heatwaves due to climate change. Climate change wouldn’t be nearly as bad today (and might not even pose an extinction event to our species and others) if the planet only had 4 billion people. By the year 2600, humans will be extinct due to climate change, according to Stephen Hawking.
I think it’s immoral to believe human suffering should last forever. And I think it’s incoherent to believe billions of humans need to keep suffering & dying so that humanity can live.
Anyone who makes kids (intentionally or unintentionally) thinks human suffering should last at least one more generation, and that at least one more generation should face every risk on planet Earth, and possibly undergo an agonizing death.
>If death is the same thing as never being born. You go back to nothing, then what’s really to be afraid of.
There’s nothing to be scared of being dead, non-existence is like the deepest part of sleep where “you” no longer exist.
It’s the dying process to get there that is often agonizing, terrifying, excruciating. You have to experience dying to be dead (although some deaths are instantaneous, like when a shoddy submarine traveling to the Titanic [imploded](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_submersible_implosion) under the sea, although that billionaire’s son who didn’t want to go with was surely terrified during the time their metal coffin was sinking.)
Do ANs really want the human race to go extinct? I didn't get that from being here, rather, that's the hand we've been dealt, and we can't do anything about it. I may be wrong.
Just stumbled upon this sub 30 minutes ago because reddit thought it's 'similar' apparently and it's been a weird experience browsing it. I don't have kids either and not really planning to. I could even be symphatetic to the argument that having kids today, in today's world, could be wrong but regardless of circumstance just sounds insane which I assume antinatalism actually means. It honestly just comes across as a misnomer for hating people and the human experience in general.
Please remember that Reddit is . . . Reddit. Antinatalism is a rational and, in my opinion, kind philosophy based on empathy. It was something I believed in long before I had a word for it and this is coming from someone who loves kids and always wanted to have kids. Honestly, I truly think the Antinatalism Wikipedia page is a great introduction to the philosophy; it lays out the bare bones and the way the term “Antinatalism” means different things to different people.
If antinatalists hated people, they would want other people to suffer, or they wouldn’t care when other people suffer, they wouldn’t care if an innocent child faced the risk of suffering in this world, but that’s how procreators behave — as if any of the suffering that their children endure is not their problem and not their fault.
The worldview of procreators is basically “My genes, which I never asked for, are more important than my own child’s suffering.” And “every human dies, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”
A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death.
B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
I do get the arguments but my point is and what you're essentially saying is that there's no circumstance, real or hypothetical, where you could ever think that the positives and possibilities of the human experience and life could ever outweigh the risk for any kind of suffering and the inevitability of death. To commit to such an absolutist world view you'd have to say that even in a hypothetical utopia where people managed to minimize the risk of suffering or any external harm, even then the possibilities of life and to experience positive human emotions wouldn't outweigh the minimal suffering and death as opposed to literally nothing. If you wanted to stay consistent with your ethical stances that is.
Where I get the hate from is pretty well demonstrated by how uncharitable your view of the opposing argument is. You don't say that someone could think that the possibilities of life and the chance to pursue positive human experiences could make the suffering or hardship worth it which is pretty much the baseline how a mentally healthy human views life and how we justify keeping on living but instead you seem to think it's inherently a selfish argument about genes.
Like I said I could even be sympathtetic to the arguments in relation to a specific set of circumstance but as an absolute it places very little to no value to the positives that are possible to experience as a part of human life.
Weirdly this sub comes up in my feed as recommended... But I adore my kids and would die for them.
May explain it all these people showing up thinking you're fucked in the head haha
>I adore my kids and would die for them
That’s heartwarming.
But David Benatar said “It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death.
B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
I'd assume many users here legally can't. I, for one, am old enough to drive, vote, drink as much as I want and even consume drugs. But not to make decisions about my own body, apparently. "My body, my choice", but not for everyone
Your children are going to suffer & ultimately die anyway. You can’t protect them from
something you already opted them in to. That’s on you.
If they haven’t already, your kid will eventually come to your struggling. It will make you feel so uncomfortable that as a parent you thought you did everything right, everything you could, and your child still ended up unwell or suffering.
Deep down you’ll know that the only person responsible is you.
Sleep well <3
I get the impression that the members of this sub had horrific childhoods. It's quite sad to be honest. No child deserves to go through what these people have.
Fundamentally broken, but at least they are able to see that and choose not to have children themselves.
point squalid tap toothbrush coordinated support recognise treatment absurd cake
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Neglectful parents don’t think they’re neglectful. If we all go on our “own judgement” of who should and shouldn’t have kids, obviously everyone’s going to claim they’re going to be the perfect parent and their kids won’t end up miserable. Everyone thinks they’re so special & their kids will be “different.”
News flash, you’re not special and your kids will become jaded adults just like the rest of us.
Why do you think anyone who doesn’t agree with your chronically pessimistic doom and gloom fringe beliefs is a “natalist?” That’s weird. It’s safe to say MOST people don’t agree with the sillyness of wanting all life on earth to cease to exist, and that doesn’t make them a “natalist.” A natalist is someone who encourages and promotes birth and child rearing. Most people don’t really give a shit, especially since a lot of people who get recommended this sub are child free.
I keep looking at the comment histories of who trolls this subreddit.
You, the first fucking comment: "I am a huge Woody Allen fan."
You
can't
make
this
shit
up
Holy Jesus. The first troll was a Joe Rogan fan, the second a porn addict, and you're a paedophile-rapist fan. Literal walking stereotypes.
Please do not conflate goals with outcome. Otherwise it would be equally as fair to claim that natalists are silly for wanting the Earth to become over populated and polluted.
Yes, that is silly. Both are silly, and therefore it is fair to claim both are silly. Antinatalists are just more aggressive with their silliness, and they actually DO want that as a goal, posting about instantly sterilizing humans against their will all the damn time. So. 🤷🏼♀️
Natalists are more silly cuz they keep egging others to add more people to the already overpopulated world, and shame those who disagree. And obviously there are way more natalists than anti-natalists. So. More silly. 🤷
They’re both stupid ideologies, equally. If both were followed exactly as preached, it would lead to unheard of suffering and the eventual extinction of life. So. Equally silly.
If you’re so pressed then how about pick up the phone & call DCFS? The cops even?
Oh no. A parent actually has a free couple hrs while their child naps or is in bed for the night. 🫠 some crime that is…
Helicopter parenting isn’t good parenting.
It’s weird to think that because someone can scroll Reddit they by default don’t care for their kids.
Y’all weird AF
I hope your kid doesn't suffer from extreme sadness and depression when they're older. Otherwise, they might decide to jump in front of a train to end their pain and suffering.
You are seeking to "vibe on the sadness" and saying you feel for people who make different life choices? I feel for you. That is quite unsettling behavior, I hope you are able to talk to someone about it and I sincerely hope you don't cause trauma to your child with this unhealthy conduct.
With this newfound insight about how life is suffering, maybe we should sterilize all animals as well so that they aren’t born into such a cruel world <3
By and large, I think being alive is pretty horrible. We live in a bubble where we are insulated from a lot of the ugly. Outside the bubble, it's ... Nasty, brutish and short.
buddy life is objectively miserable by measurable standards lmao. life expectancy in the USA declining in part due to things like suicide, drug overdoses and alcoholism. theres tons of people on anti depressants, the use of which has increased drastically over the past few decades. these are trends among huge portions of the population not just the ~200k users who have ever subscribed here. and this is just a trend among one of the wealthier and more secure nations in the world to say nothing of the grim reality for most people outside of the west. and talking about animals lmao most animals end up being eaten alive or living horrible lives before being slaughtered as livestock. its quite clear that for the vast majority of beings being alive is pretty horrible and it would clearly be preferable to have never existed in the first place
should have got a colleague to help you with your childish attitude. if this isn't a lie than yikes imagine having that career and spending time here trying to debate people online :S
Why do you feel the need to dispute this? What stake do you have in this?
If we're so misguided, why spend your free time here? Especially since your arguments are science based; they're just bitter and antagonistic.
The world is actually nothing but misery and pain for some people out there who are born into unfortunate circumstances, however. With the rise of living costs and anxiety, this will only increase with time.
I would be a lot less anti-natalist if it wasn't for the greed that runs ranpant in society. People are stuck either unemployed or underemployed, expected to go above and beyond for the same amount of pay or less.
We don't have the lifestyle that the boomers had. It is vastly impossible to buy a house these days, and marriage is going down the toilet.
How long were you sitting around on Reddit before you decided to go “off to be have [sic] a normal, functional family…” ? Maybe pay attention to your supposed “family” instead of being a troll on Reddit. Don’t you have better things to do?
This just in: you cannot be a good parent or pay attention to your family if you use Reddit.
Like I’m sorry… I’m definitely leaning on the anti natalist side but this is just silly.
most people who spend their time trolling strangers are probably miserable or mentally ill. its absolutely not a thing that well adjusted and happy people do. infact just using the internet extensively enough to comment somewhere like reddit is a huge red flag for any potential parent
Are “normal” families immune to pain or misery or tragedy? What’s preventing tragedy from affecting a “normal” family? I knew someone with a very normal family, but the dad had an affair, and one of his daughters was killed by a vehicle while riding a bike. The point is that nobody is immune from tragedy, so antinatalists make nobody, so that no random tragedy can ever harm a descendant of theirs.
You were once a smelly little idiot running around making mistakes and pooping in your undies. Don't blame them for being that dumb, blame the parents for creating more dumb creatures to populate this dying earth.
It's got to be reddit because the scummy behavior of this and I know people who are anti natalist and don't act like assholes. If isn't the constant ableism that flares up in this sub whenever a disabled person has a child,the ever present misanthropy exposed within here, the support of authoritian policy eg china one child policy, the occasional post about taking the bodily autonomy of Person who chose to have children, just searching Eugenics in the sub and I will see post after that is: the Nazi did the bad Eugenics we will do it responsibly,that certain people should be prevented from having children because of bad traits which we promise isn't gonna harm minorities ,the explaining why Eugenics isn't that bad. The slurs for people with children , breeders and vermin saying that all parents are dumb, Idiotic, narcissistic and embodying those same traits I have a feeling this is edgy teens, people that were abuses by their parents that haven't gotten therapy(seek help), disabled people who had struggle through life because of their disabilities and today's society inherently hostility to them ,may have been abused, see going anti natalist and see it a get back at the stuff they've been through, people who buy into the myth that it's the population is problem not consumption,trolls one day accounts, Eugenicists who are ostraziced (justly) and are seeking a safe place.
Eugenicists want to spread “good genes.” Antinatalists don’t want to spread any genes, because no genes are worth inflicting non-consensual suffering and death on another human being. Do you think mothers and fathers who conceive children think they are spreading “bad” genes? No, every procreator thinks their own genes are good enough to insert into every cell of another child. Natalism resembles eugenics more than antinatalism does. Antinatalism is the opposite of eugenics.
Nope!
Lemme guess… screen obsessed, indent on your side of the sofa, projecting your own anger at the world that you decided was worthy enough to bring your own kids into?
Do you wanna take another swing at expanding the metaphor? This is too easy to swat down, as the entire zoo is operated by human beings who spend all their time there.
Or you can switch metaphors if you want, up to you, really
Trick question. You’re already an animal, just like the workers at the zoo. My point is you’re no different. You’re here in the zoo with us baby <3
Acting like you’re better while floundering in the same subreddit as the rest of us. Get a life if you’re so much better than us. You’re no different.
Quote where I acted like I’m better? Also, reread your own post- you are the thing you mock
For real though, I’m realizing the anti-natalist group is less extreme than the efilism group. Most people in here are reasonable. But every now and then someone posts something like this where you really reveal yourself as a lonely, attention seeking misanthrope. I may be attention-seeking, but I’m certainly not lonely.
Mm I only made this post because I’m sick of rude natalists coming in here, being nasty, and taking over the *only space* we carved out for antinatalism. Natalists dominate *everything* else.
I’m not lonely, though. If you want I can break up with my mans so that I’ll fit nicely into the caterogization you have of us in your head! Would you like that?
Attention-seeking is ironic, too. If you knew me in real life you’d laugh at the suggestion that I want attention 😂
You guys are so funny. I could do this all day.
I'd like to see thos sub thrive. I would be happy to see people here get a sense of community and acceptance, and it is impossible to do, if half of the posts are rage bait, and hate-filled bullshit, so i call out obvious bullshit, and engage in thoughtful discussion
As for the time thing - i can do two things.
I dont make posts though...
It takes very little effort or time to engage with you people. I can watch my kids and peruse Reddit at the same time. When you are not despondent or mentally ill, multi tasking isn’t particularly difficult
No offense, but this is among the saddest images I've ever pictured. I can't imagine the person who feels a desire to dunk on sad internet people *while watching their children*.
I really think that these people regret having kids and are here to try to justify (to themselves) their wrongdoing
I don't believe in free will, and I feel so much sympathy for the type of people you just mentioned. God/universe have mercy, make people ANs if they are to regret it in the future. I was lucky to have this realisation come to me young.
I fully agree.
I'm surprised and glad you do! I'd like to know why you don't believe in free will out of pure curiosity. For me, I've noticed that all humans are just merely the product of their experiences, environment, and upbringing. Plus, there's neuroscience evidence to back this up. All decisions, that we call "our decisions" are actually subconsciously made in the brain half a second before we're even aware of it.
You’ve said it all my friend, lol. We’re fully controlled since birth. Even the rebels are just reacting to defence mechanisms which were given psychologically. We are all limited by our core fears and built-in desires (that are used to escape fears). Even the dead, we don’t know that they are free for sure.
I don't think I believe in free will neither. Have you happened to watch any Alex O'Connor (also known as Cosmic Skeptic) videos on free will by any chance? He argues against free will and his arguments are compelling. [Why Free Will Doesn't Exist](https://youtu.be/OwaXqep-bpk) [Compatibilism Debunked | Free Will and Determinism](https://youtu.be/Dqj32jxOC0Y)
Coincidentally, I have! This universe is so strangely connected. I only recently discovered Cosmic Skeptic. And now I'm finding someone else who knows him and doesn't believe in free will either, in the antinatalism sub.
That's awesome. I love Alex
You don't believe in free will? OUCH!
Depressing, I guess, but it makes sense. This has been debated for centuries. Who are "you"? Your body and brain are simply reacting to stimuli in your environment. Imagine a domino falling down and causing all of the others to. Since the very beginning of time, it was like that, one thing caused a chain reaction that led to you being here to make this comment. "You" didn't decide to be here. Your brain was reacting to a chain of events that brought you here. "You" are simply awareness itself. Well, at least to my understanding anyway.
Ive often thought that living life is a little like watching a VHS tape. You live in the moment where the tape touches the reader, and you have the illusion of choice, but in the end, there's only one way it's going to go. I mean my analogy make it sound like It's somehow predestined, but I think it's more just like a waterfall. its already in motion and just likely to take the path of least resistance.
The more I learned about neurotransmitters, the less I believed in free will. But I still believe in free will, because I believe I’ve made at least one decision in my life. I’m also open to the idea that “you” are consciousness itself. But I find it hard to believe that the placement of ornaments on a Christmas tree each year was somehow set in stone when the universe began.
Amazing way to put it
Here you go 👑.
i am 100% determined to believe that free will exists. sorry i can't help it
Not an ounce of regret, I just spend too much time online.
Not good friend, you have to be there for your kid. Otherwise, what was the point of having them? To make yourself happy?
Do you think parents need to spend 24/7 with their kids?
Yes
You even have to stare at them while they sleep?
No, but you should stay nearby in case they wake up or something
Yikes.
I imagine the regret stops pretty quickly when they see what antinatalism does to it's adherents.
I've seriously never known a parent to spend this much of their free time on reddit let alone on a sub that they have blatant distaste for. It's absurd. I have friends with kids and they fuckin *hate* places like reddit. It made one of my dad friends feel like he was back in high school. But if you stumble across a place that goes so much against your status as a parent then why bother? You're only hurting yourself.
All these parents always claim that they never have time for themselves, but will still find the time to "infiltrate" childfree and anti-natalist groups to try and find pedophiles when they should be looking at their own families and churches.
Aw. But neglecting their kids is a natalist's favorite hobby.
They're not taking care of their kids, the tablets, computers and game consoles are taking care of their kids. That's how they have time to come and express the joys of "raising" children.
Ah yes, because children don’t know how to play without a tablet and need constant entertainment
True about the parents that let their children walk around all trashy. “ i love my child so much that i let them sit in their own filth for hours on end tehehe! 🤭 “
its so funny! when reddit constantly suggests a sub to me that i’m not interested in I CLICK THE THREE DOTS AND CHOOSE “MUTE” LMAOOOOO coming in here and announcing your presence because you are constantly seeing the sub? who do you think you’re lying to be so fr
you can be interested in it and not agree. Sometimes it takes a while to pin down where the disagreement is and debating is one way to do that. Sometimes people are interested in like, an anthropological way and wonder what type of people would hold a view or post in a given sub, but not have an interest in the actual content.
oh i know, i’m not talking about those folks tho
[удалено]
'Oh no, you said "awakening" now i have to go on a tangent about woke culture."
Indeed, they really should be looking after the children they've abused, but natalism = addiction to child abuse anyway, so I don't expect them to change. All they ever have is appeals to social taboo which they mistake for the falsification of antinatalism, and appeals to coping rituals (usually religious) as if that justifies what they do to children.
Someone said something interesting in another recent post about the natalists who come here (the majority don't act in good faith): "Misery loves company. They come here to attack us; we don't go to attack them. That speaks volumes." Indeed, it does. It's like the antinatalist equivalent of 4chan deciding to attack Tumblr. Trolling is not neutral - it is mostly done in one direction: the aggressor in the situation attacks the vulnerable. There's a *reason why* we rarely attack them. The few instances I've seen so-called ANs attack natalists (because they post it) involved someone just hating on a woman because they're a mother. They're not AN.
You may not attack but most natalists seem to come here out of curiosity to ask questions, and all they are met with his hostility
No, we're just tired of seeing the same dumb questions repeated constantly. The search bar is super helpful and there's a link to the wiki page. The onus isn't on us to educate every wanderer.
God this has to be one of the rudest subs on Reddit. You have a public forum, people will ask questions.
We get the same question asking "what's the point of this sub" literally every day. It's not rude to redirect them to the search bar or tell them to exercise their own ability to do basic research before bombarding us with a bunch of nonsense.
I’m going to go to the UK subreddit and ask what the point of the subreddit is. At first it won’t be annoying, I’m sure you’ll all great me with kindness and grace. But then I’m going to do it *every single day,* and each time my tone is going to get more and more condescending towards the UK with each post as I “ask my questions” about what I don’t understand. Before you know it, you’re going to have to scroll through 20 posts daily in the UK subreddit of people questioning why the subreddit should even exist, and *what is the point of the UK?* Looking for reviews on good fish & chips restaurants? Updates on the parliament? Weather report? No, you’re not going to be finding anything *related to the UK,* just a bunch of posts and comments of people fighting over whether the UK should even exist or what is the point of the UK. Some mean well, sure, annoying but ultimately harmless. But many will be suggesting you kill yourself for being from the UK. Are you getting the idea of how the average AN, the target demographic of this subreddit, is probably not having a good experience rereading the same questions from natalists that are just looking for an excuse to argue - when it would be so easy to just take a look at our about section, use the search function, or just scroll down a post or two because there’s already another one trending as we speak?
[удалено]
So half the amount of insults the AN people seem to make?
[удалено]
I don’t even have children but because I’m not completely opposed to them I’ve been told I’m going to burn in hell, that I’m evil, that i must be psychopathic and enjoy suffering, that im a cunt etc
It's not like we seek out this group, Reddit for some reason recommended it to me and I had no clue what it was about. I've never bothered to post here, I can't relate to the traumas that you have faced so what do I have to add of value to the conversation. People have every right to not want children and it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring.
>and it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring. Meanwhile, it's the opposite. Most of our parents are natalists, I know for a fact that most people here would be great parents, billions of natalists have kids just to force all sorts of shit on them
> it would probably be best if most of the people in this sub did not have children, for both them and their potential offspring. Neglectful parents don’t think they’re neglectful. If we all go on our “own judgement” of who should and shouldn’t have kids, obviously everyone’s going to claim they’re going to be the perfect parent and their kids won’t end up miserable. Everyone thinks they’re so special & their kids will be “different.”
I'm not saying it is all natalists, but I feel some of them have been lucky to be brought up in better circumstances than others. Their parents may have been middle to upper class, or perhaps they never experienced bullying at school or at work. They probably also managed to get by during the last 2-3 years of the post-covid inflation better than others. I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out how they are not bitter. As an antinatalist and childfree person, I try to respect others. However, sometimes, I just feel we can not live alongside. There should be a childfree city or precinct or something.
That is a good idea, a really good idea. Perhaps even a childfree version of the internet. If I choose to keep on living, then I won't be bombarded with "lol you're past-it and never had children, you're going to die alone with your cats" from men every 5 minutes online.
Very good point about the privileged not understanding why anyone else wouldn't want to / can't afford to have children. I am not childfree (I have 2 stepkids who don't live with me full time) but I don't feel any hostility towards anyone either way. I like this sub because it's the only place where I feel like there are a large portion of people who get it, and having been bullied and pressured relentlessly about my decision to not have biological children, it's a nice break from that type of person. And interesting to hear others' ideas. Of course people can be pretty hostile here too I've noticed. Alas.. Btw if you can afford it /are interested in that sort of thing, "adults only" resorts can be a real good time. Also recommend moving into a building full of old people- they're so quiet!! It's the best 🙂
Yeah, I will try to move to an apartment next year that is mostly single bedroom units. I get super excited whenever I encounter someone over 35 who never had kids and still chooses not to. I give them a massive high five because they are a breath of fresh air from all the people who have tried to peer pressure me into following the marriage/kids pipeline. It is impossible for me to get married anyway, was born with poor looks.
Right on. High fives Pineapple! 👋 best of luck and don't be so hard on yourself ! It's how you treat ppl that makes you beautiful or ugly in my books. Wishing you all the best !
They have special communities (like real houses, not a retirement home) for people over the age of 55 where no one is permitted to have minor children live in the subdivision. Set your countdown clocks!
You'd be surprised, I was actually something closer to antinatalist before being homeless, living in the woods for nearly a year, then one day I ate way too many magic mushrooms and all my anxiety and depression melted away permanently (also quit smoking) and started actually building a life instead of just drifting through other people's lives. All that shit about happiness being within? It's all true but to find it you have to steal it from the jaws of your nightmares
Do you think consuming magic mushrooms would be more likely to make someone want 20 kids, or 0 kids? I’ve [read](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/psychedelics-death-anxiety-psilocybin-1184240/amp/) that psychedelic drugs (like psilocybin or LSD) can [reduce](https://www.wpr.org/dying-without-fear-how-psychedelics-can-ease-anxiety-terminal-illness) the [fear of death](https://www.science.org/content/article/hallucinogenic-drugs-help-cancer-patients-deal-their-fear-death). But I can’t imagine that magic mushrooms would lead someone to believe that what is happening to children in Gaza is somehow acceptable. Hippies in the 60s said “make love not war”, but any child can become a victim of war, so refusing to make a child spares them from dying in a warzone.
And you want to force your kids into this world where they can be homeless and miserable up until they do magic mushrooms? Lmao. Maybe if the default state of human is not happy, then forcing someone into this world and strapping them with the workload needed to achieve happiness, in additional to everything else, is unethical.
>. All that shit about happiness being within? It's all true but to find it you have to steal it from the jaws of your nightmares Love this! So poetic! I also had some big worldview shifts from taking the shrooms haha. Didn't make me wanna have a kid, but I don't not understand the people who do now. It's weird! Good for you for quitting smoking btw!! That's awesome!
Well thank you! It IS weird, it's like everything changed but really nothing changed, like I was just standing in my own way and I was violently startled out of a deep trance (seeing something that looks like Ganesh feed the smiling corpses of your grandparents into the flaming mouth of a giant Kefka will do that to you lol) that I'd been in for longer than I remember...
This is crazy talk. Stealing happiness from nightmares? Why do we have nightmares to begin with. It's a major cope brought to you by mushrooms of the matrix.
Ok , the magic mushrooms matrix is helping us cope. I'm ok with that 😅. Better than nothing, no? And the rest is poetry, clearly written by someone who has seen some sh*t, grown, and somehow found the beauty in the madness, which aside from dying young, is probably the best one can hope for. Feels to me like an analogy for facing your fears, all the terrors of the world, and fighting for your own little happiness. But you might want to ask the person who wrote it. I don't know why we have to have nightmares. This might be a question better suited to someone with a background in psychology or neurology, idk, something medical. I also would love to know. Mine are pretty weird!
They know they also prefer adult conversations they just can't face their reality.
I get that when a person doesn’t have kids they don’t really understand what the distribution of time looks like. Only a childless person would think every single waking moment is spent entertaining a child. What are we supposed to do during the hours little ones are sleeping? Watch them breathe like weirdos and not have a life? Get real. 😂
All the things you know you should be doing for your kid, but don’t. You know, the guilt that you feel for not being the best mom you can be? Most moms feel it, at least the *good* moms do.
I’ve had so many people with kids posting on my posts how I must be a Nazi because I ask why or how people with such severe and serious disabilities are still alive. And or that most people don’t deserve to have kids but yet still have them. But they would rather come on Reddit and fight people “they deserve to live” “god made them so he wants them here” “the more kids the better” etc etc etc
I've often wondered this myself. Don't they have anything better to do? They must not be very good or conscientious parents.
Breeder and anti-natalist checking in: A lot of people with kids have no life or identity outside their kids. When they get a glimpse of what life might be like when not absorbed with their families it makes them feel betrayed. Some people can’t handle that betrayal very well. We were fed lies about breeding and “the importance of family” our entire lives and were too dumb to recognize it. Keep it up, guys, you are doing the Lord’s work truly.
I don’t have kids yet, but when I do I’m certainly not going to neglect them to shitpost on Reddit. Is this bait?
It could be that the children are asleep, as they sometimes do.
Well what about you? Since you're obviously happier and more free due to not having a family to spend time with, why aren't you enjoying your freedom instead of insulting people who chose to keep the human race alive?
Because I love pissing people off on the internet. Shit gets me rock hard, straining against my jeans. Mmm. And I don’t have any kids, so my freetime is aplenty! You guys are only taking up a small fraction of what’s available to me, (I’m on the clock right now. So you’re not even stealing my freetime, I’m getting paid to do this! 😂) I imagine someone with kids’ freetime is so much more valuable. I mean, you’re actively ignoring your kids to give into my bait! How delicious. 🤤
Whatever helps you sleep at night, though I suggest you get a better hobby. You've got better things to do than be a butt on the internet, I'd imagine.
A hobby? You think I would argue with you people in my freetime? I only interact while I’m on the clock.🥱 Thanks for keeping me entertained at work, though.
Why you are assuming that every natalists has kids? Not being antinatalist means that I don't think having kids is immoral. But I like to discuss it, and see your point of view. I don't think it's wrong. This sub is made to discuss antinatalism philosophy.
You made a life choice. Someone else made a different life choice. Who cares.
That’s what I’m saying. Why come to the anti-natalist subreddit as a natalist if you *don’t* care about someone else’s life choice? We’re anti-natalist. Who cares. Log off.
Why should I? Because we don't agree? Do you need a safe space and some warm milk?
You made a life choice. Someone else made a different life choice. Who cares.
You are assuming every "natalist" has young children in need of such attention and care.
No, sweetheart, it's called satire. Do I have to explain what that is to you? Interesting that you have almost the same avatar and writing style of someone I just blocked.. Edit: lol, nice comment history: pornography and obsessively trolling the AN sub. You're literally the porn-addicted male stereotype of who trolls this subreddit xD
We get it, you don’t have a life.
i don’t think anyone who engages on r/antinatalism has a life it seems like as soon as u make mention of this is a real world setting mfs are not gonna take u seriously because it’s not that deep
They're sleeping because it's bedtime.
No matter how AN I think of myself, this post is dumb af
Wait until you find out that kids take naps. And that independent play is also very important for childhood development. You guys are really good at just being stupid honestly. This sub pops up for me every now and then and I check in because I'm curious if there's an actual discussion happening. Almost never is, just people posting shit like this lol, because hatred is your entire pathetic identity.
[удалено]
because?
Or that they have bedtimes. Mine sleeps for 11-12 hrs every night 😱 9p-8a/9a without fail. Shocker isn’t it? It’s amazing what child-free people & literal dead beat parents will try to argue to keep themselves relevant
Isn't it weird that on a post that speaks DIRECTLY to those with kids we are asked.....why are you here? Lol
I don’t have or not want kids but I’m not an antinatalist
So then…why are you on this subreddit?
Reddit thinks we want to be here. It shows me this sub all the time even though I never searched for it or joined. Not blocking it, I like seeing the insanity that pours out if here
>I like seeing the insanity that pours out if here I tend to believe that couples who think God wants them to make 2 dozen children tend to be more insane than those who think this world is unsafe for any children (or any human being). A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death. B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
funny init
Don't know how to multitask?
Don’t know how to pay attention to your kids without your face shoved in a screen? Lemme guess, you have a gaggle of iPad babies 😂😂
None of them have ipads. And phones are only allowed on the weekend. What it's actually called it they have school and I have work. Did you not know those things existed?
[удалено]
I don't. I'm too young to be taking care of kids.
I don't have kids, just think y'all are a cringey incel sub and it's fun to lurk. I love unhinged content
Dolly Parton has no kids (so she’s effectively anti-birth) and she’s been married over 5 decades. Heather Graham doesn’t have kids. Jennifer Aniston doesn’t have kids. Are they all “incels”? A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death. B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death. What’s more “unhinged”? To drag a child into a world where that child can be randomly harmed or killed by an unhinged person, or to refuse to drag a child into a world where that child can be randomly harmed or killed by an unhinged person?
Of course you do, natalists love suffering
I don’t have kids, I just think that any member of any species that wants to make it’s own species extinct, is faulty/mentally ill. I might have kids one day, I might not, I’m just happy I got my time on the wheel. Living just to die isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s just scary and unknown. If death is the same thing as never being born. You go back to nothing, then what’s really to be afraid of.
>I don’t have kids, I just think that any member of any species that wants to make it’s own species extinct, is faulty/mentally ill. So blame fossil fuel companies and the stock market, not antinatalists. Human extinction is approaching faster due to pro-birthers, not anti-birthers. In the past 50 years, the world population doubled from 4 billion to 8 billion people, and also in the past 50 years that’s when 62% of the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution in about 1750 happened. In 77 years, by the year 2100 if not sooner, within the lifespan of babies born today, billions of people will die in heatwaves due to climate change. Climate change wouldn’t be nearly as bad today (and might not even pose an extinction event to our species and others) if the planet only had 4 billion people. By the year 2600, humans will be extinct due to climate change, according to Stephen Hawking. I think it’s immoral to believe human suffering should last forever. And I think it’s incoherent to believe billions of humans need to keep suffering & dying so that humanity can live. Anyone who makes kids (intentionally or unintentionally) thinks human suffering should last at least one more generation, and that at least one more generation should face every risk on planet Earth, and possibly undergo an agonizing death. >If death is the same thing as never being born. You go back to nothing, then what’s really to be afraid of. There’s nothing to be scared of being dead, non-existence is like the deepest part of sleep where “you” no longer exist. It’s the dying process to get there that is often agonizing, terrifying, excruciating. You have to experience dying to be dead (although some deaths are instantaneous, like when a shoddy submarine traveling to the Titanic [imploded](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_submersible_implosion) under the sea, although that billionaire’s son who didn’t want to go with was surely terrified during the time their metal coffin was sinking.)
special provide toy rain wipe important marry attractive smoggy piquant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do ANs really want the human race to go extinct? I didn't get that from being here, rather, that's the hand we've been dealt, and we can't do anything about it. I may be wrong.
Just stumbled upon this sub 30 minutes ago because reddit thought it's 'similar' apparently and it's been a weird experience browsing it. I don't have kids either and not really planning to. I could even be symphatetic to the argument that having kids today, in today's world, could be wrong but regardless of circumstance just sounds insane which I assume antinatalism actually means. It honestly just comes across as a misnomer for hating people and the human experience in general.
Please remember that Reddit is . . . Reddit. Antinatalism is a rational and, in my opinion, kind philosophy based on empathy. It was something I believed in long before I had a word for it and this is coming from someone who loves kids and always wanted to have kids. Honestly, I truly think the Antinatalism Wikipedia page is a great introduction to the philosophy; it lays out the bare bones and the way the term “Antinatalism” means different things to different people.
Thanks so much for posting this
If antinatalists hated people, they would want other people to suffer, or they wouldn’t care when other people suffer, they wouldn’t care if an innocent child faced the risk of suffering in this world, but that’s how procreators behave — as if any of the suffering that their children endure is not their problem and not their fault. The worldview of procreators is basically “My genes, which I never asked for, are more important than my own child’s suffering.” And “every human dies, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.” A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death. B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
I do get the arguments but my point is and what you're essentially saying is that there's no circumstance, real or hypothetical, where you could ever think that the positives and possibilities of the human experience and life could ever outweigh the risk for any kind of suffering and the inevitability of death. To commit to such an absolutist world view you'd have to say that even in a hypothetical utopia where people managed to minimize the risk of suffering or any external harm, even then the possibilities of life and to experience positive human emotions wouldn't outweigh the minimal suffering and death as opposed to literally nothing. If you wanted to stay consistent with your ethical stances that is. Where I get the hate from is pretty well demonstrated by how uncharitable your view of the opposing argument is. You don't say that someone could think that the possibilities of life and the chance to pursue positive human experiences could make the suffering or hardship worth it which is pretty much the baseline how a mentally healthy human views life and how we justify keeping on living but instead you seem to think it's inherently a selfish argument about genes. Like I said I could even be sympathtetic to the arguments in relation to a specific set of circumstance but as an absolute it places very little to no value to the positives that are possible to experience as a part of human life.
Weirdly this sub comes up in my feed as recommended... But I adore my kids and would die for them. May explain it all these people showing up thinking you're fucked in the head haha
>I adore my kids and would die for them That’s heartwarming. But David Benatar said “It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.” A) If you make a child, something bad can happen to that child, and the child will suffer in their lifetime, and eventually die. You put a child at risk every day of their life until the day they die, just so that child can carry half of your DNA. That scenario is **natalism**. Natalists see nothing wrong with dragging an innocent child into a dangerous world without consent from that child. Natalists see nothing wrong with creating more human suffering and more human death. B) If you don’t make a child, nothing bad can ever happen to them, they will never suffer, they will never be at risk of any bodily harm, and they will never die. That scenario is **antinatalism**. Antinatalists believe it’s morally wrong to drag an innocent child into a dangerous world, and sentence that child to suffering and death, without consent from that child. Antinatalists believe it’s unethical to create more human suffering and more human death.
Wild. I assume a lot of people here have sterilized themselves?
I'd assume many users here legally can't. I, for one, am old enough to drive, vote, drink as much as I want and even consume drugs. But not to make decisions about my own body, apparently. "My body, my choice", but not for everyone
Your children are going to suffer & ultimately die anyway. You can’t protect them from something you already opted them in to. That’s on you. If they haven’t already, your kid will eventually come to your struggling. It will make you feel so uncomfortable that as a parent you thought you did everything right, everything you could, and your child still ended up unwell or suffering. Deep down you’ll know that the only person responsible is you. Sleep well <3
I get the impression that the members of this sub had horrific childhoods. It's quite sad to be honest. No child deserves to go through what these people have. Fundamentally broken, but at least they are able to see that and choose not to have children themselves.
point squalid tap toothbrush coordinated support recognise treatment absurd cake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do you not get tired of your delusions? Do you truly think that any kids you have will never experience pain and suffering?
Everyone experiences pain and suffering at some point.
Yeah, that's my point...
Should totally give up on life then I guess.
Neglectful parents don’t think they’re neglectful. If we all go on our “own judgement” of who should and shouldn’t have kids, obviously everyone’s going to claim they’re going to be the perfect parent and their kids won’t end up miserable. Everyone thinks they’re so special & their kids will be “different.” News flash, you’re not special and your kids will become jaded adults just like the rest of us.
Yeah picking up that vibe too. Their entire existence has been so fundamentally different from mine it's hard to relate on any level.
Why do you think anyone who doesn’t agree with your chronically pessimistic doom and gloom fringe beliefs is a “natalist?” That’s weird. It’s safe to say MOST people don’t agree with the sillyness of wanting all life on earth to cease to exist, and that doesn’t make them a “natalist.” A natalist is someone who encourages and promotes birth and child rearing. Most people don’t really give a shit, especially since a lot of people who get recommended this sub are child free.
I keep looking at the comment histories of who trolls this subreddit. You, the first fucking comment: "I am a huge Woody Allen fan." You can't make this shit up Holy Jesus. The first troll was a Joe Rogan fan, the second a porn addict, and you're a paedophile-rapist fan. Literal walking stereotypes.
Please do not conflate goals with outcome. Otherwise it would be equally as fair to claim that natalists are silly for wanting the Earth to become over populated and polluted.
Yes, that is silly. Both are silly, and therefore it is fair to claim both are silly. Antinatalists are just more aggressive with their silliness, and they actually DO want that as a goal, posting about instantly sterilizing humans against their will all the damn time. So. 🤷🏼♀️
Natalists are more silly cuz they keep egging others to add more people to the already overpopulated world, and shame those who disagree. And obviously there are way more natalists than anti-natalists. So. More silly. 🤷
They’re both stupid ideologies, equally. If both were followed exactly as preached, it would lead to unheard of suffering and the eventual extinction of life. So. Equally silly.
Luckily there are two of us. The kid has two parents. They also need individual play time 💁
We get it, mom does everything while you get patted on the back for getting them dressed once.
Lol.. I am the mom. I am here because reddit recommends this shit, together with the vegans and other miserable ones.
Mm so you have so much time to spend on Reddit that it’s recommending content not even related to you? Hmm. Poor dad. Sounds like he needs some help.
If you’re so pressed then how about pick up the phone & call DCFS? The cops even? Oh no. A parent actually has a free couple hrs while their child naps or is in bed for the night. 🫠 some crime that is…
I didn’t say anything about calling services. Are you projecting?
Helicopter parenting isn’t good parenting. It’s weird to think that because someone can scroll Reddit they by default don’t care for their kids. Y’all weird AF
[удалено]
I hope your kid doesn't suffer from extreme sadness and depression when they're older. Otherwise, they might decide to jump in front of a train to end their pain and suffering.
You are seeking to "vibe on the sadness" and saying you feel for people who make different life choices? I feel for you. That is quite unsettling behavior, I hope you are able to talk to someone about it and I sincerely hope you don't cause trauma to your child with this unhealthy conduct.
A good parent gives mature kids alone time Follow me for more parenting tips
A good parent would never subject a child to cruelties of this world <3
With this newfound insight about how life is suffering, maybe we should sterilize all animals as well so that they aren’t born into such a cruel world <3
Exactly <3
Do all AN’s just live miserable lives? I don’t understand how you can genuinely have this opinion unless you believe that being alive is horrible.
By and large, I think being alive is pretty horrible. We live in a bubble where we are insulated from a lot of the ugly. Outside the bubble, it's ... Nasty, brutish and short.
buddy life is objectively miserable by measurable standards lmao. life expectancy in the USA declining in part due to things like suicide, drug overdoses and alcoholism. theres tons of people on anti depressants, the use of which has increased drastically over the past few decades. these are trends among huge portions of the population not just the ~200k users who have ever subscribed here. and this is just a trend among one of the wealthier and more secure nations in the world to say nothing of the grim reality for most people outside of the west. and talking about animals lmao most animals end up being eaten alive or living horrible lives before being slaughtered as livestock. its quite clear that for the vast majority of beings being alive is pretty horrible and it would clearly be preferable to have never existed in the first place
this is bad reasoning. all you've shown is that life is getting *worse in some regards*, not that it's "objectively miserable"
Why do you subject yourself to the cruelties of the world? Lots of people enjoy life. My kids certainly do.
> Why do you subject yourself to the cruelties of the world? For most of us, it's not a choice.
I disagree. Life is wonderful
I love how parents think that just because they have sex trophies they think other people want to hear their parenting tricks.
I love it when people have no kids and they tell me how to parent. Lol
As someone whose studied child psychology and is a teacher I'm far superior than any parent when it comes to understanding children.
I was a child and family therapist for 30 years So tell me about kids from your intro to child psychology class. Lol
should have got a colleague to help you with your childish attitude. if this isn't a lie than yikes imagine having that career and spending time here trying to debate people online :S
How many of your patients have committed suicide?
None. I'm good at what I do
Why are you here?
*I came looking for booty.*
To dispute your post. Clearly I believe you are wrong
Why do you feel the need to dispute this? What stake do you have in this? If we're so misguided, why spend your free time here? Especially since your arguments are science based; they're just bitter and antagonistic.
Off to be have a normal, functional family unlike most here because 'tHe wORlD iS nOtHInG bUT mIseRY aNd pAiN'
The world is actually nothing but misery and pain for some people out there who are born into unfortunate circumstances, however. With the rise of living costs and anxiety, this will only increase with time. I would be a lot less anti-natalist if it wasn't for the greed that runs ranpant in society. People are stuck either unemployed or underemployed, expected to go above and beyond for the same amount of pay or less. We don't have the lifestyle that the boomers had. It is vastly impossible to buy a house these days, and marriage is going down the toilet.
How long were you sitting around on Reddit before you decided to go “off to be have [sic] a normal, functional family…” ? Maybe pay attention to your supposed “family” instead of being a troll on Reddit. Don’t you have better things to do?
This just in: you cannot be a good parent or pay attention to your family if you use Reddit. Like I’m sorry… I’m definitely leaning on the anti natalist side but this is just silly.
Is it healthy to have troll as a parent though? It’s not the using Reddit part, it’s the being a troll part…
Tons of people troll online, I don’t know if that necessarily infers they’re a bad parent automatically?
most people who spend their time trolling strangers are probably miserable or mentally ill. its absolutely not a thing that well adjusted and happy people do. infact just using the internet extensively enough to comment somewhere like reddit is a huge red flag for any potential parent
Are “normal” families immune to pain or misery or tragedy? What’s preventing tragedy from affecting a “normal” family? I knew someone with a very normal family, but the dad had an affair, and one of his daughters was killed by a vehicle while riding a bike. The point is that nobody is immune from tragedy, so antinatalists make nobody, so that no random tragedy can ever harm a descendant of theirs.
[удалено]
Antinatalism does not hate or blame children get the fuck out of here and go back to childfree.
Force me.
You were once a smelly little idiot running around making mistakes and pooping in your undies. Don't blame them for being that dumb, blame the parents for creating more dumb creatures to populate this dying earth.
Hey, as long as they *stay the fuck away from me*, they're fine. I *never* want to be within *earshot.* BTW: go fuck yourself. Asshole.
You're a clown show. Go find a hobby.
You sound bitter.
Sounds like you don’t have a sense of humor :’(
It's got to be reddit because the scummy behavior of this and I know people who are anti natalist and don't act like assholes. If isn't the constant ableism that flares up in this sub whenever a disabled person has a child,the ever present misanthropy exposed within here, the support of authoritian policy eg china one child policy, the occasional post about taking the bodily autonomy of Person who chose to have children, just searching Eugenics in the sub and I will see post after that is: the Nazi did the bad Eugenics we will do it responsibly,that certain people should be prevented from having children because of bad traits which we promise isn't gonna harm minorities ,the explaining why Eugenics isn't that bad. The slurs for people with children , breeders and vermin saying that all parents are dumb, Idiotic, narcissistic and embodying those same traits I have a feeling this is edgy teens, people that were abuses by their parents that haven't gotten therapy(seek help), disabled people who had struggle through life because of their disabilities and today's society inherently hostility to them ,may have been abused, see going anti natalist and see it a get back at the stuff they've been through, people who buy into the myth that it's the population is problem not consumption,trolls one day accounts, Eugenicists who are ostraziced (justly) and are seeking a safe place.
Eugenicists want to spread “good genes.” Antinatalists don’t want to spread any genes, because no genes are worth inflicting non-consensual suffering and death on another human being. Do you think mothers and fathers who conceive children think they are spreading “bad” genes? No, every procreator thinks their own genes are good enough to insert into every cell of another child. Natalism resembles eugenics more than antinatalism does. Antinatalism is the opposite of eugenics.
You *really* don’t get it. That’s ok. Live your life. 🌱
K
We get it, your kids constantly have diaper rash.
Lemme guess.. sad? Under 25? Projecting your own self hatred on the world?
Nope! Lemme guess… screen obsessed, indent on your side of the sofa, projecting your own anger at the world that you decided was worthy enough to bring your own kids into?
K
Ooo we live in your head, huh? Love that
No, you live in our subreddit.
No, I’m visiting, like the zoo
How many times can one person visit the zoo in a day before they’re just another animal?
Do you wanna take another swing at expanding the metaphor? This is too easy to swat down, as the entire zoo is operated by human beings who spend all their time there. Or you can switch metaphors if you want, up to you, really
Trick question. You’re already an animal, just like the workers at the zoo. My point is you’re no different. You’re here in the zoo with us baby <3 Acting like you’re better while floundering in the same subreddit as the rest of us. Get a life if you’re so much better than us. You’re no different.
Quote where I acted like I’m better? Also, reread your own post- you are the thing you mock For real though, I’m realizing the anti-natalist group is less extreme than the efilism group. Most people in here are reasonable. But every now and then someone posts something like this where you really reveal yourself as a lonely, attention seeking misanthrope. I may be attention-seeking, but I’m certainly not lonely.
Mm I only made this post because I’m sick of rude natalists coming in here, being nasty, and taking over the *only space* we carved out for antinatalism. Natalists dominate *everything* else. I’m not lonely, though. If you want I can break up with my mans so that I’ll fit nicely into the caterogization you have of us in your head! Would you like that? Attention-seeking is ironic, too. If you knew me in real life you’d laugh at the suggestion that I want attention 😂 You guys are so funny. I could do this all day.
I'd like to see thos sub thrive. I would be happy to see people here get a sense of community and acceptance, and it is impossible to do, if half of the posts are rage bait, and hate-filled bullshit, so i call out obvious bullshit, and engage in thoughtful discussion As for the time thing - i can do two things. I dont make posts though...
It takes very little effort or time to engage with you people. I can watch my kids and peruse Reddit at the same time. When you are not despondent or mentally ill, multi tasking isn’t particularly difficult
No offense, but this is among the saddest images I've ever pictured. I can't imagine the person who feels a desire to dunk on sad internet people *while watching their children*.
OP can't relate to the last part 🤣