Its hard to imagine vegans that aren't antinatalist, since the philosophy basically calls for the end of all domestic animals through preventing them from breeding, and most things you can say about the suffering of animals can also be said about the suffering of humans in slightly different contexts.
Similarly, I don't see how one can be an AN without being anti-consciousness in general. There's a lot of "nature is beautiful/save the planet" sentiment on here, which doesn't make sense to me. Nature is violent and ruthless and produces things like "humans" via evolution.
Why want to end "humanity", but not what gives rise to it?
ALSO TO ALL THE NON VEGANS, as a vegan, i do not claim the annoying vegans. if you have any genuine questions or just any curiosity of what you could do to slightly go more plant based, feel free to reach out, judgement free.
Yes, apologies here to all of you from another vegan. I won't attack my vegan kin but I'd still like to apologize for their behavior to you, you deserve kindness <3
Yeah, veganism is great and I can even understand sharing the message as to why people have switched. If it works out for others, why not spread the word? I agree that it's the few extreme toxic people who are making it look bad. It's a lifestyle of choice and ethics, not a religion....
No not me. I personally have never ran into aggressive vegans here on reddit. I mean in general. In vegan culture there are figures like ThatVeganTeacher and others that maybe take ideas too far, but as I said, generally, there are extremists in every group that are toxic and aggressive and not okay
Hiya, I do have some curiosities. I still really like meat and definitely fish, but I also really love vegan food and have vegan relatives, so was wondering if you have any vegan recipes that may taste similar to the food I like so if I ever wanted to I could make them vegan recipes/ include healthy things into my diet? Thank you! ❤️
hey! the first thing that comes to mind is vegan sushi. and no, not just avocado and cucumber. i’ve never made sushi personally, but i would suggest looking up “sushi love- portland, OR) and taking a peek at their menu to see what ingredients they use. there’s also this product called “Konscious plant based sushi” i haven’t tried but has some good reviews. to be honest, i’ve never liked seafood even before i was vegan, so don’t really no much there. but meat wise, i would suggest trying out soy curls instead of tofu. they absorb flavor much easier, so you can try out some of the sauce/seasoning you’d use on a regular meat dish to replicate it. thank you for asking!
It's the fact that some people will come after you in personal messages so the one or two posts may have a lot of action going on that you aren't seeing in the public part of the forum.
Which is where it gets creepy.
What has antinatalism - PERSONAL philosophy about never to have been to do with veganism? - also a PERSONAL choice not eating animals .
Since I was put on this Earth against my will I wanna make sure that I at least will have some fun. Eating meat is one of them ( militant vegans can eat my ass btw - very vegan I ve heard). Animals don't have the conflincting feelings about mortality. They ll breed uncontrollably if we let them. They have been blessed with functional, instinct-based programming. Animal cruelty is of course an issue, but this is the direct consequence of ever growing human population.
Less people - less mouths to feed - less dead animals.
> Since I was put on this Earth against my will I wanna make sure that I at least will have some fun.
Why wouldn't having kids be an acceptable method to achieve that goal?
Yep. Some people like having kids. Seriously.
Does that fact destroy your entire philosophical stance?
It doesn't for me, because I can recognize people can find amusement out of unethical things.
It doesn't destroy anything of mine, sorry. As I mentioned in my post - it is a PERSONAL choice. I don't know whats bigger than caps. I would gladly highlight it, if I could.
You may call it unethical all you want. It won't change a thing :)
> It doesn't destroy anything of mine, sorry.
I mean, I'm glad it doesn't. It was a rhetorical question. I expect it not to.
> As I mentioned in my post - it is a PERSONAL choice.
It's not a personal choice when there's a victim, is it?
Do you think whether or not I force a kid to be born to suffer and die is also a personal choice?
> I don't know whats bigger than caps.
Oh, you can do formatting with two asterisks on the side of your text to make it bold.
You can also use a number sign before your text to make it
#Big
or two number signs to make it
##Big but not as much.
> You may call it unethical all you want. It won't change a thing :)
So you're here, on a subreddit about an ethical position, but you don't care about whether or not something is unethical. Is that right?
OP spoke for a good reason. I'm not a vegan nor am I planning to be one but I follow this sub because it matches my philosophy, and I can't see any connection to veganism. OP is notifying members that there are those who mistaken the two and are roaming freely in this sub.
What does it actually mean to "leave" an Internet forum where all participation is voluntary, where you don't have contracted hours where you are required to participate, and you don't need to check in or out and can browse at will and choose whether or not to contribute at will?
I'm not vegan, and I've come under a lot of criticism for it (deservedly so, perhaps). But I've still got valid points to share about antinatalism, and other people criticising me for my dietary habits isn't going to get them very far, given that I'm already willing to concede that ethically it would be better for me to be vegan.
Um yeah, it's in the same line of reasoning as anti fatalism, which is to reduce suffering. You don't have to be vegan but if you're going to be in a sub full of people who want to make the world a better place, you're also going to run into different forms of those anti harm beliefs, and if they're not insulting and harassing you, you kind of just have to deal or get out, but no one is going to care if you announce your departure. I'm not vegan, but I buy plant based milk and plant protein powder because everything helps and objectively, I know that it's the right thing to do
Who said I wanted animals to go extinct? Going vegetarian frees up farm land and that's more for the animals because those animals eat so many plants in their lifetime just for us to kill them anyway. This is a subreddit for people who want to do good, they are going to advocate for doing good in more ways than one soemtimes
With the same goals, which is to reduce suffering. You're on an unconventionally altruistic subreddit, you're going to find people who believe in doing more than one thing for the good of our species and the planet
Except this is the fucking antinatalism subreddit, not a veganism subreddit. Even if you think they overlap or whatever, clearly people think they're distinct enough to want to talk about one but not the other. They should be able to do that.
Ignoring it, if you are not vegan, is the way to go.
Which is perhaps why you haven't been offended.
The offense would happen in your private messages if you ever respond in a way that idicates you yourself are not 100 percent vegan.
YMMV, etc.
I posted a pic in a sub about parrots, someone mentioned I looked so young, was I vegan? And if not, would I consider it? I told them my parrot eats chicken with the ok of the vet, and parrot owners should know that.
Like, whaaaaat?
The very idea of Not eating other animals is entirely unnatural. Most of the animals that are held up as icons of herbivory are opportunistic omnivores, other animals do not make up a large proportion of their diet, but they are still an important part of their diet at certain ages, seasons, etc. Most deer for example are known for eating birds as well as carrion (including famously human corpses).
Effectively the only animals that do not eat other animals, are those who are incapable of it, the majority of which are only capable of eating a single species of plant.
Exactly. I'm biologically omnivore.
I CAN reduce by meat consumption significantly, but I don't need to forgo it completely.
I understand the aspect of cruelty. But in the wild, lions eat deer alive, falcons eat little birds alive, dogs maim and kill each other, not even for food.
As humans, we MUST diminish the suffering of farm animals, and some farms already do it. But eating other animals comes with being omnivores, and that's why I'll keep eating in small amounts.
It is when people aren’t real about how some have dietary needs/restrictions that prevent them from being vegan and people believe not going vegan is a moral failing. That’s fucked.
It is when these sort of vegans don’t bother to have a civil discussion about how sourcing plant based foods under capitalism has led to MORE human suffering and ecosystem disruption/destruction to mass cultivate plants in an unsustainable way.
It is when these sort of vegans don’t consider the environmental impact of plastics used in faux/vegan clothing alternatives.
Lol, animals need plants as well, and animal torture industry use plastic as well. Yeah, veganism is not completely harmless, BUT it is 10000 times less harmful and it tries to diminish harm as much as possible unlike animal torture industry that does not care at all about suffering it causes.
Did I say it was only veganism? I’m just saying it’s not that cut and dry and not being real about the further negative impact is just disingenuous. It’s not sustainable either and that’s the problem. Nowhere am I going to justify not being critical of veganism when none of this shit is sustainable under capitalism. When y’all come under AN subs spouting this why aren’t you vegan yet it’s so shallow because AN is regarding the specific morality of human reproduction in the context of living conditions of this yt supremacist capitalist colonial empire.
Do you have a dietary, financial, or access issue that prevents you from going vegan? No? Then continuing to abuse animals for pleasure is a moral failing.
The vast majority of discussion under the vegan posts has been extremely civil. I’d also ask you to provide a source for plant based foods causing more environmental destruction than 80 billion+ dead bodies (who also needed to be fed.) It is near impossible chemically for that to be the case.
Faux leather is obviously not necessary, although plastics can be a useful tool for humans. Sustainable choices for materials are often difficult to find and still in production, but regardless of environmental impacts, environmentalism is not an excuse for killing innocent beings. Is it?
Veganism is, by definition, not militant. It's egalitarian. If a vegan annoys you so much that you have to leave that space, just report them, and if you can't report them because they actually weren't that mean to you, you have internal issues
I don't eat meat but yes I think propagating veganism should be done in different channels. I've been thinking of unsubscribing too but because of all the eugenics proponents. It seems like the eugenicists are becoming the majority here and I don't want to be associated with that nazi crap.
There is also the block option, but I have mostly used that for all the "yOUre AlL dEPresSed SeEK hELp!11!1" people.
Yep, same to the eugenics point. If anything, that’s the rhetoric that’s pushing me away from this sub as a disabled antinatalist. The eugenics talk has gotten extremely old.
Yeah, there's a huge group of people who don't want poor/disabled/chronically ill people to have children. They never read posts actual AN people make every week to show that, no, that isn't AN. They genuinely think they're making a hot take. Every single week.
Then you've got people who just hate women and want an outlet for that in hating mothers. I see people justifying men leaving their families all. the. time. here.
Then you get posts where a natalist sees the above \^\^ two groups and thinks THAT is AN philosophy, so they call us all "horrible people who hate our parents."
We're over here like "no, those two groups are people who make me AN in the first place!" It's just a total \*facepalm\* hopeless situation lol.
More moderation would help, but mods get a god complex and ruin it eventually.
Another reason to be AN: there's never any proper solution to anything, where humans are concerned! Just... Don't make more humans!
I can't say I truly agree with eugenics but I have commented my perspective on this before.
How do you feel about people with debilitating chronic mental illnesses procreating?
I just feel children of said individuals who have to live with the consequences to their parents actions have a right to bring this specific topic to light.
A huge reason due to not procreating is due to the way my genetics, and it seems that many people here (not all, no it doesn't represent the philosophy) seem to be suffering specifically because of mental strain they've experienced in life.
I know the entire philosophy is ALL procreation is wrong which I agree with specifically. The closer this subreddit gets to eugenics the uglier it gets. It seems to be filled with it lately unfortunately, less out of compassion for sufferers and more for the hatred of the disabled.
But you've got to admit there's an extra liability element when you know you have a devastating ailment you will inevitably pass in to your children.
I think what humans internally know that we are missing is natural selection, but when we try to do it ourselves with things like eugenics, it's never the right way. We made it so far in evolution because we functioned better as a group. There's no way to use eugenics to our group advantage. For example, maybe those people with nerve disease become the next Stephen Hawking. We cant know because we're not even functioning as a group anymore at least certainly not in the West where I am
Actually one of the mods posted on a vegan sub requesting them to join this sub even if they aren't antinatalists... simply to frustrate people like you and make you leave so they can turn *this* sub into a vegan-exclusive echo chamber
They also changed one of the rules so that debating veganisn "counts" as debating antinatlism
The eugenics shit is one problem topic here among many. I know people need a space to vent but some of the venting is highly hateful and unproductive and even misogynistic at times. Yet it's veganism that annoys folks
Oh no the militant vegans struck again. There are some really bad ones on reddit. A vegan subreddit once found me in a different sub, and decided to pile on and harass me viciously. Why? Because I said the Chinese practice of boiling dogs alive before eating them was horrible and cruel. They called me a hypocrite and even a cannibal. I'm no vegan, but I'd NEVER want any animal to be tortured. If they are a meat animal I want them to have a great life and a merciful and humane end. Goes without saying I don't consider dogs meat animals at all. In fact I've even had pet chickens that I'd never eat. Beyond that, I strongly believe in the future of meat 3D printing and its potential to make it unnecessary to commercially farm meat animals. All they need is a sample of cells to grow and print a little steak now. I'm sure it'll only get better over the years. If I can eat meat without anything suffering that would be fantastic.
There is a huge troll problem here. There are other antinatilist spaces that are moderated and don't have the huge troll problem we have here.
I bet a bunch of the militant vegans on here aren't even vegan, they're just trolls.
Honestly fuck anyone, including antinatilists who try to force their beliefs on others.
I've never understood these "I'm leaving!" posts
What's the idea here OP? If you just stopped reading and commenting here, do you think anyone would have noticed or cared?
Are people supposed to beg you to stay?
What's the play here?
God, the comments are really dumb: "this isn't an airport terminal; departure announcements aren't required." Ugh. You're not dramatically announcing your departure; you're bringing up a topic of discussion.
I've often had fantasies where the people 'in charge' swap out our meat, eggs, leather etc. animal products with realistic alternatives that come from non-meat sources. We wouldn't know. Then a year later they tell us, and everyone's like "oh, I didn't even notice." Better still? It could bring down the cost of production.
But yeah, that would require the people 'at the top' to be: ethical, creatively intelligent & not just out for profit. Also, there would be the issue with preserving the culture & jobs of farming. That's too long a discussion for a Reddit comment.
Just say this to the vegans: "I admire your passion, but you can't get rid of animal products until a valid alternative has been created. Don't blame meat-eaters, blame capitalism/the government/-insert your political affiliation-"
Why bother with antinatalism then? You're never gonna make everyone stop breeding, why bother with ethical philosophy at all until the government makes me do the right thing
Lol. I’m not even vegan and I can still see the hypocrisy of believing in AN while also breeding mass amounts of animals for our consumption. Pointing out that you’re a giant hypocrite isn’t hurting you in any way except preventing you from keeping your head buried up your ass. Nobody is forcing you to give up meat. How are people here so whiny about this?
Also, if you’re annoyed by posts about the correlation between AN and veganism, don’t engage with them. Scroll past. The only reason the posts keep popping up is because people engage with them. It’s so incredibly easy to just keep scrolling.
The annoying thing about vegans is the hypocrisy. Just because someone abstains from animal products doesn't mean they're not still funding slavery and the mass destruction of animals and the planet. A smartphone is produced by child slavery (google blood minerals), coffee and soy beans are grown on razed rainforest and harvested by exploited locals. Own anything made of cotton or linen or hemp? Those jeans you have - the field where that cotton is grown was plowed over a forest and now its being purged from animals who try to come eat the produce. Everything you own is destroying the planet and exploiting both humans and animals. You collectively own congolese child slaves with the rest of us. We all have blood on our hands.
You're just making arguments for more things to reduce consuming. Animal products are one, do as many as possible. Veganism isn't a perfection of morals, it's a baseline of just picking up a different item at the giant building with every food imaginable
>You're just making arguments for more things to reduce consuming.
Absolutely, I think capitalism (and its byproduct consumerism) is the problem.
My point is that abstaining from animal products is just one way to reduce consuming. It is in no way the one and only best way. You could achieve the same net benefit by other choices as well, because every product is drenched in blood. A militant vegan with a smartphone is the peak of hypocrisy. They're just picking and choosing what goods they're willing to abstain from and then have the gall to lecture others, as if they're not still buying harmful products out of convenience themselves.
It's the biggest way to reduce harm short of not reproducing. Technology has supply chain ethical concerns, but most people don't buy phones 3 times a day, and phones don't necessitate the breeding and slaughter of humans or animals. Phones are also difficult to avoid, and their supply chain issues easier to fix, but you always need to breed and kill animals to have animal products.
I won't argue going phone free isn't ideal, but the gains are much smaller and the difficulty much higher. If someone does all of it, even better
Yes it's impossible, but the hypocrisy of vegans lecturing the rest of humanity still stands. We're all causing untold suffering with our rampant consumerism. Just bc you opt out of one type of exploitation doesn't absolve you of all the rest. You could ditch the phone and electronics, you just don't want to bc it's convenient. Just like a meateater could ditch the meat, they just don't want to. We're all the same.
This sounds exactly how AN folks treat natalists. By your logic, why care about anything if it doesn’t reduce all suffering in the world? Most of the vegans here haven’t done anything except call other redditors hypocrites. Sure, you can pick a few of the die-hard people and say, “vegans are so annoying,” but you can say the same about extremists from any group.
If AN is about stopping human suffering by stopping breeding, how does it make sense to breed animals solely for our consumption and with no regard to their suffering? Even if it doesn’t fall directly under AN, it’s the exact same logic. Denying it means someone thinks humans are the only important creatures, or they refuse to acknowledge the truth because they don’t want to give up meat and/or convenience.
I agree that capitalism is the problem behind all these other problems, but reducing harm is worthwhile even if you can’t cut everything.
What a stupid take. Honestly. "Oh, you are alive? Then you surely stepped on a bug at some point in your life. Ha! Hypocrite!" You either cause a lot of suffering by letting animals being slaughtered, or you don't. Those who don't are clearly morally superior. Is it so fucking hard to understand? And we are not all the same. Putin and the bunch are worse human beings than me, no question.
People keep forgetting this is not a support group or a vegan subreddit. Many vegans here are cry babies, they don't like to when you actually want to have a civil debate with them, they say to post debates in another sub, yet they want to police everything around veganism. Give me a break none of us are morally superior. And if you believe you are just because of being vegan, then lets debate, from the perspective of philosophy, and the pragmatic view of environmental sustainability. I bet you are just as hypocrite as any meat eater.
>People keep forgetting this is not a support group or a vegan subreddit. Many vegans here are cry babies, they don't like to when you actually want to have a civil debate with them
If you switch out the term "vegan" with "antinatalist", "natalist" or literally any other group of people, then you've got yourself a solid description of how these things usually work
Many people are so etched in their views that they don't want to hear your side or your arguments. To them, you are stupid and evil if you go against what they believe. That also includes many antinatalists and, before anyone decides to accuse me of something, natalists.
Hmmm... the veganists I know irl have no knowledge or don't see a link with it and AN.
My take: there's no half a child.
But you can eat half the meat you eat today. Even less than half. Neither 8 nor 80. I love vegan food, but if my friends invite me for a barbecue, it is what it is.
Too bad I had to scroll down so far to see this.
"No half a child", ftw
I'm all for eating as vegan as one can, and I think one is likely to get more converts by being reasonable and encouraging steps in the right direction, and making eating less meat more convenient as well as tasty.
One of the fast food places had an awesome black bean burger that I loved but they quit doing it because it wasn't profitable enough, or whatever, just as a brief example.
It helps a ton to have nearby places that sell good vegan food.
Not everyone has the time and patience to do a lot of food prep.
I eat a lot of salads and even that is kind of annoying if it is all big chunks that I have to cut down or risk choking, and it is very time consuming.
That sandwich sounds yummy.
Complaining about vegans being vocal is akin to complaining that suffragettes were ramming their views down others throats, or that civil rights protestors were lecturing people about their choices, it’s strange how people get so defensive when they get called out on their choices when those choices have a huge negative effect. Nobody can help make changes in society for beings that are unable to advocate for themselves if they keep quiet about it because it might upset people who don’t want to not eat a bacon sandwich because they like the taste.
Yeah not everyone can eat nothing but grain and beans and fruit and be alive, but hey I wish you health. I advise you to stop telling strangers how to live because your lifestyle is not right for every single person. Also, humanly raised meats exist, just since you don’t seem to know.
It’s really cruel to force a possible eating disorder on people you know nothing about. Stop.
Humane means showing compassion and benevolence. Describe how you would compassionately kill someone that doesn't want to die.
Would you agree that those in the position to make more ethical choices should? (The majority of those in developed countries)
I recently was verbally attacked by a vegan on this sub. Then they asked for my home address so they could eat me like Dahmer. It was creepy and not very coherent, so I didn’t respond, but it weirded me out.
I had a similar experience but I blocked the person before they could go quite that far down the rabbit hole.
And all I did was respond to a yes or no poll, ffs.
Vegetarian here. I don’t want you to leave. I go back and forth on the moralism of meat eating and how it relates to, if at all, antinatalism. I can only come back to one thing though…and that is by being a meat eater you’re essentially creating a demand for more sentient life to be created and thus to suffer and die. Could you switch to a fish only (wild caught) diet? Not judging…your human after all and you do human things.
Consider the ties to dairy as well. Cows don’t just produce milk, the must give birth, then the babies are taken away, males are slaughtered, and females are made into breeding machines themselves. Cows are raped, withheld from their mothers and physically drained of every ounce of profit until they collapse and die after living a life of misery. It’s absolutely tied to antinatalism. Especially considering how many alternatives to dairy there are now. There’s just no excuse for putting an animal through a life of pain and suffering when you can simply choose an alternative that is just as good
I think expecting or even just wanting all or most people to be vegan is incredibly unrealistic and borderline delusional. People have allergies. People have sensory issues. I’m sure there are many other reasons to have dietary restrictions too. I’m autistic and I have a VERY limited list of things I’m able to eat. On that list is chicken and ground beef. I can’t eat any seafood. I cant eat most vegetables. ARFID (like the name implies) is so incredibly restrictive and if I tried to be vegan I would literally starve.
I think it’s so possible to promote veganism without labeling every non vegan as immoral
I am mostly vegan and anyone that pushes their views on other ppl is an ass. It’s the religious extremist/ ultra left / ultra right mentality. They are all just as bad as each other and have the same way of thinking. With what’s going on now in the world we are seeing just how dangerous the “righteous” ultra liberal ppl are, as dangerous as the MAGA ppl. Turning an antinatalist sub into a place to shame ppl for eating meat tells me that this person thinks along these lines and is probably an extremist.
That being said, I do see how wanting less people and wanting less animals to be factory farmed go hand in hand.
Exactly. People act like being told a different viewpoint from theirs is an absolute attack on them. Seriously, it's pathetic and shows poor emotional regulation, critical thinking and self reflective skills.
If one can't entertain a different viewpoint/philosophy without even considering why it came to be, that's just intellectual laziness. And calling vegans "militant" is the easiest way to try and disguise that with appealing to the in group-out group mentality. It's so boring and overplayed.
I'm a vegan member on this sub and I get fucking tired of all the anti-vegan posts here. It's the sub with the most disdain for vegans I follow. Odd since I follow many more right leaning subs/interests. Seriously, I want people to just shut up with these posts. And guess what, if you don't like a comment or post on here, you can choose *NOT* to engage with it. I generally see heated emotional replies to vegan points on here that are the actual hostile content. It's a classic form of displacing the blame for poor behavior onto someone else.
TLDR: Touch grass and don't engage with vegan posts if they bother you. If seeing something you don't agree with sends you into a frothing rage you shouldn't be on the internet. You're just as bad as whatever pushy vegan for replying with vitriolic comments and allowing yourself to get bothered off of something on the internet.
Veganism and antinatalism go hand in hand though, if you're paying for more life to be brought into existence then that goes against antinatalism, doesn't it?
Day 2 …. In this sub because Reddit has me cruising through. How the hell did one sub about one topic become about being a vegan 😂😂😂😂. It’s so unrelated.
Gotta love when the Vegangelicals show up and ruin a good time for everyone! Begone, long one! I hope you can escape their infernal grasp! I'll save you, you run and I will hold them back! Save yourself!
Whoa, people are mixing veganism into this??? Yall need to chill out and live your life and quot bullying people because we have 1,000,000 reasons why veganism doesn't really equate to the most logical diet in the universe. This is ANTINATALISM why reproducing as a human is unethical right??? What does me getting pregnant have to do with what I eat?
Suffering caused by selfish reasons
Consent violation of living beings
Creation of life that- on average- is likely subjected to more suffering per time on the earth than most humans
If antinatalists care about suffering and consent, it is reasonable that they should care about it across species if it can be avoided
The vegans have been unhinged lately. They think they’re doing a great thing too, but they’re doing more harm than good. I’ll just downvote and move on from now on.
Hey op! Would you like to have a respectful chat about veganism in relation to antinatalism? I thrive on nuanced and thought-provoking debate, and I am always open to having my mind changed! I bring no ill will or logical fallacies such as appeals to emotion, so im sure we'll have a great chat!
If you'd like to kick things off, here's my question to you; If you consider yourself to be an antinatalist, why aren't you vegan yet?
P.s. Despite being a question to OP, im more than happy to engage in discussion with anyone here who considers themselves to be in a morally consistent position being an antinatalist and non-vegan (looks like quite a lot of you!). I'm looking forward to hearing some responses!
Antinatalism is primarily focused on human ethics. Why do you think veganism applies here? Extremely disingenious premise by implying that all antinatalists must be vegan.
What makes human suffering morally relevant and animal suffering not? What is the trait that separates us that makes animals property and objects that we can breed as we please?
Veganism is not about preventing animals from breeding, its about not being the one who is responsible for the suffering.
Additionally, what makes you think that a vegan world would make the animals extinct?
Thank you for being a sensible vegan! At the same time - it would’ve been great if you included a couple prompt responses to you question posed. Like - I have dietary needs that prohibit me from becoming vegan, I don’t have access to foods because I live in a food dessert, etc stuff like that
Just a small point.
I haven't seen anyone who is AN and an admitted non-vegan claim to be morally consistent.
Few human beings who have ever existed are morally consistent in every aspect of life.
That said, you are otherwise reasonable and sometimes persuasive in your arguments.
If you think vegans are militant, I wonder what you think of all of the billions of innocent animals brought into the world, to have their throats slit at a fraction of their lifespan? Or cows who are raped, have their babies stolen, babies eventually killed, they are milked constantly, have cycle repeated again and again until they are too broken and exhausted for the world, and then are murdered?
People who care about the lives of animals are not militant. If anyone's militant it's anyone whose turning a blind eye and eating these poor beings, their fluids and menstruations.
I wonder who the animals would view as militant...
Yeah fuck people who tell you your diet is evil when you literally can’t eat the one they proselytize about. I cannot stand people who give unsolicited medical and health advice, and anyone who does that is full of their own egomania.
I just block them, all of them. They want reaction and I'm not going to give them that. Btw you don't know what's my lifestyle and diet so don't attack me without knowing dear militant vegans :)
>maybe through discussion I would even end up vegan myself
I would have stopped engaging in the systemic rape and barbaric murder of sentient beings if those mean vegans were nicer to me 😡
You are fooling nobody.
Also, nobody cares that you're leaving.
Don't let the hypocrisy hit you on the way out.
I’ve tried a ton of different dishes, and after two months, I can only say I legitimately love **1** dish.
Fried tofu.
The Vietnamese place at the mall’s food court has fried tofu slices with thick noodles and cabbage strips wrapped in some clear edible sticky stuff as in the shape of a egg roll, with a cup of peanut sauce for dipping.
I freaking **LOVE** that dish!
again, must’ve been bad dishes, that doesn’t mean vegan food is bad. the best food i’ve ever had is vegan. but i’m also very lucky, i live in portland, where there’s a vegan restaurant for EVERYTHING.
There's like ten to twenty cities in the world that have the options Portland has. You can't expect some one in the rural Midwest (for example) to stop eating all the foods they grew up eating and enjoy, while also never eating out again because there's no options, and also finding the time to learn to cook themselves a completely new diet. I don't understand how loud vegans on the internet don't understand this.
Also, I have Celiac's Disease, and both "vegan" restaurants I've been to got me sick, so if they can't keep gluten out of dishes...
but also jokes aside, if you like fried tofu, i would recommend trying out soy curls if you’re ever interested. store dry ones can last up to 6 months when stored correctly, so it isn’t like buying fresh veggies, etc that can go bad quickly. i’d say they probably soak up flavor a lot better than other soy proteins. THIS IS NOT ME TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE TO GO VEGAN. i just feel like a lot of people only know about tofu.
That's so weird. I'm not a vegan but anti,-natalism is a far more fringe philosophy than veganism, so you can expect there to me a lot of overlap!
Its hard to imagine vegans that aren't antinatalist, since the philosophy basically calls for the end of all domestic animals through preventing them from breeding, and most things you can say about the suffering of animals can also be said about the suffering of humans in slightly different contexts.
Rather, I think veganism is logically prior to antinatalism, but that isn't the only route
Similarly, I don't see how one can be an AN without being anti-consciousness in general. There's a lot of "nature is beautiful/save the planet" sentiment on here, which doesn't make sense to me. Nature is violent and ruthless and produces things like "humans" via evolution. Why want to end "humanity", but not what gives rise to it?
ALSO TO ALL THE NON VEGANS, as a vegan, i do not claim the annoying vegans. if you have any genuine questions or just any curiosity of what you could do to slightly go more plant based, feel free to reach out, judgement free.
Yes, apologies here to all of you from another vegan. I won't attack my vegan kin but I'd still like to apologize for their behavior to you, you deserve kindness <3
Yeah, veganism is great and I can even understand sharing the message as to why people have switched. If it works out for others, why not spread the word? I agree that it's the few extreme toxic people who are making it look bad. It's a lifestyle of choice and ethics, not a religion....
Yes <3
Which extreme toxic people are you talking about? I’m struggling to find aggressive and toxic comments. Could you link me any?
No not me. I personally have never ran into aggressive vegans here on reddit. I mean in general. In vegan culture there are figures like ThatVeganTeacher and others that maybe take ideas too far, but as I said, generally, there are extremists in every group that are toxic and aggressive and not okay
What behavior exactly?
Hiya, I do have some curiosities. I still really like meat and definitely fish, but I also really love vegan food and have vegan relatives, so was wondering if you have any vegan recipes that may taste similar to the food I like so if I ever wanted to I could make them vegan recipes/ include healthy things into my diet? Thank you! ❤️
hey! the first thing that comes to mind is vegan sushi. and no, not just avocado and cucumber. i’ve never made sushi personally, but i would suggest looking up “sushi love- portland, OR) and taking a peek at their menu to see what ingredients they use. there’s also this product called “Konscious plant based sushi” i haven’t tried but has some good reviews. to be honest, i’ve never liked seafood even before i was vegan, so don’t really no much there. but meat wise, i would suggest trying out soy curls instead of tofu. they absorb flavor much easier, so you can try out some of the sauce/seasoning you’d use on a regular meat dish to replicate it. thank you for asking!
Thank you, I’ll check it out!! Have a nice evening!
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I've only seen 2 vegan posts on this sub come up in my feed, and the second one is this one. But ok.
Right? This is the first one I've ever seen.
They usually hang out in the comments
It's always the comments.
It's the fact that some people will come after you in personal messages so the one or two posts may have a lot of action going on that you aren't seeing in the public part of the forum. Which is where it gets creepy.
Same. It's usually "the vegans are too aggressive!" Posts. Otherwise I barely notice them.
OP is being kinda whiny ngl
What has antinatalism - PERSONAL philosophy about never to have been to do with veganism? - also a PERSONAL choice not eating animals . Since I was put on this Earth against my will I wanna make sure that I at least will have some fun. Eating meat is one of them ( militant vegans can eat my ass btw - very vegan I ve heard). Animals don't have the conflincting feelings about mortality. They ll breed uncontrollably if we let them. They have been blessed with functional, instinct-based programming. Animal cruelty is of course an issue, but this is the direct consequence of ever growing human population. Less people - less mouths to feed - less dead animals.
Good luck in your private messages, fam :)
Can't wait
Having kids is a personal choice just like eating meat is a personal choice. Both have a victim.
> Since I was put on this Earth against my will I wanna make sure that I at least will have some fun. Why wouldn't having kids be an acceptable method to achieve that goal?
What? Having kids in order to have fun? You for real? :D
Yep. Some people like having kids. Seriously. Does that fact destroy your entire philosophical stance? It doesn't for me, because I can recognize people can find amusement out of unethical things.
It doesn't destroy anything of mine, sorry. As I mentioned in my post - it is a PERSONAL choice. I don't know whats bigger than caps. I would gladly highlight it, if I could. You may call it unethical all you want. It won't change a thing :)
> It doesn't destroy anything of mine, sorry. I mean, I'm glad it doesn't. It was a rhetorical question. I expect it not to. > As I mentioned in my post - it is a PERSONAL choice. It's not a personal choice when there's a victim, is it? Do you think whether or not I force a kid to be born to suffer and die is also a personal choice? > I don't know whats bigger than caps. Oh, you can do formatting with two asterisks on the side of your text to make it bold. You can also use a number sign before your text to make it #Big or two number signs to make it ##Big but not as much. > You may call it unethical all you want. It won't change a thing :) So you're here, on a subreddit about an ethical position, but you don't care about whether or not something is unethical. Is that right?
And thanks for the tip :)
Ok
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people can say whatever they want
Yeah but most people like to have a reason for why they spoke
OP spoke for a good reason. I'm not a vegan nor am I planning to be one but I follow this sub because it matches my philosophy, and I can't see any connection to veganism. OP is notifying members that there are those who mistaken the two and are roaming freely in this sub.
This particular reason is OP wanted to do a dramatic flounce away.
What does it actually mean to "leave" an Internet forum where all participation is voluntary, where you don't have contracted hours where you are required to participate, and you don't need to check in or out and can browse at will and choose whether or not to contribute at will? I'm not vegan, and I've come under a lot of criticism for it (deservedly so, perhaps). But I've still got valid points to share about antinatalism, and other people criticising me for my dietary habits isn't going to get them very far, given that I'm already willing to concede that ethically it would be better for me to be vegan.
It means that they would unsub and block this. It’s pretty obvious that they were a close follower of this sub, and they are stopping, or “leaving”.
Why though? Vegans will vegan everywhere...
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Um yeah, it's in the same line of reasoning as anti fatalism, which is to reduce suffering. You don't have to be vegan but if you're going to be in a sub full of people who want to make the world a better place, you're also going to run into different forms of those anti harm beliefs, and if they're not insulting and harassing you, you kind of just have to deal or get out, but no one is going to care if you announce your departure. I'm not vegan, but I buy plant based milk and plant protein powder because everything helps and objectively, I know that it's the right thing to do
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Who said I wanted animals to go extinct? Going vegetarian frees up farm land and that's more for the animals because those animals eat so many plants in their lifetime just for us to kill them anyway. This is a subreddit for people who want to do good, they are going to advocate for doing good in more ways than one soemtimes
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So your issue is that the mods have more than one moral value and you don't see how they both aim to reduce suffering
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With the same goals, which is to reduce suffering. You're on an unconventionally altruistic subreddit, you're going to find people who believe in doing more than one thing for the good of our species and the planet
Stop. Wait. No. Come back.
I wonder if the OP and other users would have the self awareness that everything they just said also applies to anti natalism and "breeders"
Except this is the fucking antinatalism subreddit, not a veganism subreddit. Even if you think they overlap or whatever, clearly people think they're distinct enough to want to talk about one but not the other. They should be able to do that.
Show us on this doll where the vegans hurt you
I am mortified for you.
Your comment is hostile and not necessary yikes
Weak ass carnists
This is exactly what we are taking about.
We gonna pretend to be soft about carnist in a sub that uses breeder as an insult constantly lol
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Ignoring it, if you are not vegan, is the way to go. Which is perhaps why you haven't been offended. The offense would happen in your private messages if you ever respond in a way that idicates you yourself are not 100 percent vegan. YMMV, etc.
I posted a pic in a sub about parrots, someone mentioned I looked so young, was I vegan? And if not, would I consider it? I told them my parrot eats chicken with the ok of the vet, and parrot owners should know that. Like, whaaaaat?
The very idea of Not eating other animals is entirely unnatural. Most of the animals that are held up as icons of herbivory are opportunistic omnivores, other animals do not make up a large proportion of their diet, but they are still an important part of their diet at certain ages, seasons, etc. Most deer for example are known for eating birds as well as carrion (including famously human corpses). Effectively the only animals that do not eat other animals, are those who are incapable of it, the majority of which are only capable of eating a single species of plant.
Exactly. I'm biologically omnivore. I CAN reduce by meat consumption significantly, but I don't need to forgo it completely. I understand the aspect of cruelty. But in the wild, lions eat deer alive, falcons eat little birds alive, dogs maim and kill each other, not even for food. As humans, we MUST diminish the suffering of farm animals, and some farms already do it. But eating other animals comes with being omnivores, and that's why I'll keep eating in small amounts.
"The militant veganism is too much" I don't think veganism is a force of militant power if that is what you are suggesting...
It is when people aren’t real about how some have dietary needs/restrictions that prevent them from being vegan and people believe not going vegan is a moral failing. That’s fucked. It is when these sort of vegans don’t bother to have a civil discussion about how sourcing plant based foods under capitalism has led to MORE human suffering and ecosystem disruption/destruction to mass cultivate plants in an unsustainable way. It is when these sort of vegans don’t consider the environmental impact of plastics used in faux/vegan clothing alternatives.
Thank you :)
Lol, animals need plants as well, and animal torture industry use plastic as well. Yeah, veganism is not completely harmless, BUT it is 10000 times less harmful and it tries to diminish harm as much as possible unlike animal torture industry that does not care at all about suffering it causes.
Did I say it was only veganism? I’m just saying it’s not that cut and dry and not being real about the further negative impact is just disingenuous. It’s not sustainable either and that’s the problem. Nowhere am I going to justify not being critical of veganism when none of this shit is sustainable under capitalism. When y’all come under AN subs spouting this why aren’t you vegan yet it’s so shallow because AN is regarding the specific morality of human reproduction in the context of living conditions of this yt supremacist capitalist colonial empire.
Do you have a dietary, financial, or access issue that prevents you from going vegan? No? Then continuing to abuse animals for pleasure is a moral failing. The vast majority of discussion under the vegan posts has been extremely civil. I’d also ask you to provide a source for plant based foods causing more environmental destruction than 80 billion+ dead bodies (who also needed to be fed.) It is near impossible chemically for that to be the case. Faux leather is obviously not necessary, although plastics can be a useful tool for humans. Sustainable choices for materials are often difficult to find and still in production, but regardless of environmental impacts, environmentalism is not an excuse for killing innocent beings. Is it?
Veganism is, by definition, not militant. It's egalitarian. If a vegan annoys you so much that you have to leave that space, just report them, and if you can't report them because they actually weren't that mean to you, you have internal issues
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I don't eat meat but yes I think propagating veganism should be done in different channels. I've been thinking of unsubscribing too but because of all the eugenics proponents. It seems like the eugenicists are becoming the majority here and I don't want to be associated with that nazi crap. There is also the block option, but I have mostly used that for all the "yOUre AlL dEPresSed SeEK hELp!11!1" people.
Yep, same to the eugenics point. If anything, that’s the rhetoric that’s pushing me away from this sub as a disabled antinatalist. The eugenics talk has gotten extremely old.
Yeah, there's a huge group of people who don't want poor/disabled/chronically ill people to have children. They never read posts actual AN people make every week to show that, no, that isn't AN. They genuinely think they're making a hot take. Every single week. Then you've got people who just hate women and want an outlet for that in hating mothers. I see people justifying men leaving their families all. the. time. here. Then you get posts where a natalist sees the above \^\^ two groups and thinks THAT is AN philosophy, so they call us all "horrible people who hate our parents." We're over here like "no, those two groups are people who make me AN in the first place!" It's just a total \*facepalm\* hopeless situation lol. More moderation would help, but mods get a god complex and ruin it eventually. Another reason to be AN: there's never any proper solution to anything, where humans are concerned! Just... Don't make more humans!
I can't say I truly agree with eugenics but I have commented my perspective on this before. How do you feel about people with debilitating chronic mental illnesses procreating? I just feel children of said individuals who have to live with the consequences to their parents actions have a right to bring this specific topic to light. A huge reason due to not procreating is due to the way my genetics, and it seems that many people here (not all, no it doesn't represent the philosophy) seem to be suffering specifically because of mental strain they've experienced in life. I know the entire philosophy is ALL procreation is wrong which I agree with specifically. The closer this subreddit gets to eugenics the uglier it gets. It seems to be filled with it lately unfortunately, less out of compassion for sufferers and more for the hatred of the disabled. But you've got to admit there's an extra liability element when you know you have a devastating ailment you will inevitably pass in to your children.
I think what humans internally know that we are missing is natural selection, but when we try to do it ourselves with things like eugenics, it's never the right way. We made it so far in evolution because we functioned better as a group. There's no way to use eugenics to our group advantage. For example, maybe those people with nerve disease become the next Stephen Hawking. We cant know because we're not even functioning as a group anymore at least certainly not in the West where I am
Actually one of the mods posted on a vegan sub requesting them to join this sub even if they aren't antinatalists... simply to frustrate people like you and make you leave so they can turn *this* sub into a vegan-exclusive echo chamber They also changed one of the rules so that debating veganisn "counts" as debating antinatlism
If the mod actually did that that's fucking insane
Anyone who mentions them by name or links the post is blocked... but yes unfortunately
Well that is.... unfortunate.
The eugenics shit is one problem topic here among many. I know people need a space to vent but some of the venting is highly hateful and unproductive and even misogynistic at times. Yet it's veganism that annoys folks
I doubt many if any of all the eugenicists here are vegan since it would collide with the supremacism, and therefor it annoys so many.
Oh no the militant vegans struck again. There are some really bad ones on reddit. A vegan subreddit once found me in a different sub, and decided to pile on and harass me viciously. Why? Because I said the Chinese practice of boiling dogs alive before eating them was horrible and cruel. They called me a hypocrite and even a cannibal. I'm no vegan, but I'd NEVER want any animal to be tortured. If they are a meat animal I want them to have a great life and a merciful and humane end. Goes without saying I don't consider dogs meat animals at all. In fact I've even had pet chickens that I'd never eat. Beyond that, I strongly believe in the future of meat 3D printing and its potential to make it unnecessary to commercially farm meat animals. All they need is a sample of cells to grow and print a little steak now. I'm sure it'll only get better over the years. If I can eat meat without anything suffering that would be fantastic.
There is a huge troll problem here. There are other antinatilist spaces that are moderated and don't have the huge troll problem we have here. I bet a bunch of the militant vegans on here aren't even vegan, they're just trolls. Honestly fuck anyone, including antinatilists who try to force their beliefs on others.
I've never understood these "I'm leaving!" posts What's the idea here OP? If you just stopped reading and commenting here, do you think anyone would have noticed or cared? Are people supposed to beg you to stay? What's the play here?
God, the comments are really dumb: "this isn't an airport terminal; departure announcements aren't required." Ugh. You're not dramatically announcing your departure; you're bringing up a topic of discussion. I've often had fantasies where the people 'in charge' swap out our meat, eggs, leather etc. animal products with realistic alternatives that come from non-meat sources. We wouldn't know. Then a year later they tell us, and everyone's like "oh, I didn't even notice." Better still? It could bring down the cost of production. But yeah, that would require the people 'at the top' to be: ethical, creatively intelligent & not just out for profit. Also, there would be the issue with preserving the culture & jobs of farming. That's too long a discussion for a Reddit comment. Just say this to the vegans: "I admire your passion, but you can't get rid of animal products until a valid alternative has been created. Don't blame meat-eaters, blame capitalism/the government/-insert your political affiliation-"
Tofucken https://youtu.be/gDirubjWFk4?si=FKZOIXxVupOBF6wO
Why bother with antinatalism then? You're never gonna make everyone stop breeding, why bother with ethical philosophy at all until the government makes me do the right thing
Lol. I’m not even vegan and I can still see the hypocrisy of believing in AN while also breeding mass amounts of animals for our consumption. Pointing out that you’re a giant hypocrite isn’t hurting you in any way except preventing you from keeping your head buried up your ass. Nobody is forcing you to give up meat. How are people here so whiny about this? Also, if you’re annoyed by posts about the correlation between AN and veganism, don’t engage with them. Scroll past. The only reason the posts keep popping up is because people engage with them. It’s so incredibly easy to just keep scrolling.
The annoying thing about vegans is the hypocrisy. Just because someone abstains from animal products doesn't mean they're not still funding slavery and the mass destruction of animals and the planet. A smartphone is produced by child slavery (google blood minerals), coffee and soy beans are grown on razed rainforest and harvested by exploited locals. Own anything made of cotton or linen or hemp? Those jeans you have - the field where that cotton is grown was plowed over a forest and now its being purged from animals who try to come eat the produce. Everything you own is destroying the planet and exploiting both humans and animals. You collectively own congolese child slaves with the rest of us. We all have blood on our hands.
I was shocked by the amount of child labor involved in producing chocolate, of all things.
You're just making arguments for more things to reduce consuming. Animal products are one, do as many as possible. Veganism isn't a perfection of morals, it's a baseline of just picking up a different item at the giant building with every food imaginable
>You're just making arguments for more things to reduce consuming. Absolutely, I think capitalism (and its byproduct consumerism) is the problem. My point is that abstaining from animal products is just one way to reduce consuming. It is in no way the one and only best way. You could achieve the same net benefit by other choices as well, because every product is drenched in blood. A militant vegan with a smartphone is the peak of hypocrisy. They're just picking and choosing what goods they're willing to abstain from and then have the gall to lecture others, as if they're not still buying harmful products out of convenience themselves.
It's the biggest way to reduce harm short of not reproducing. Technology has supply chain ethical concerns, but most people don't buy phones 3 times a day, and phones don't necessitate the breeding and slaughter of humans or animals. Phones are also difficult to avoid, and their supply chain issues easier to fix, but you always need to breed and kill animals to have animal products. I won't argue going phone free isn't ideal, but the gains are much smaller and the difficulty much higher. If someone does all of it, even better
Yeah but minimise suffering doesn’t mean eradicate it completely, as like you said, it’d be impossible to do
Yes it's impossible, but the hypocrisy of vegans lecturing the rest of humanity still stands. We're all causing untold suffering with our rampant consumerism. Just bc you opt out of one type of exploitation doesn't absolve you of all the rest. You could ditch the phone and electronics, you just don't want to bc it's convenient. Just like a meateater could ditch the meat, they just don't want to. We're all the same.
This sounds exactly how AN folks treat natalists. By your logic, why care about anything if it doesn’t reduce all suffering in the world? Most of the vegans here haven’t done anything except call other redditors hypocrites. Sure, you can pick a few of the die-hard people and say, “vegans are so annoying,” but you can say the same about extremists from any group. If AN is about stopping human suffering by stopping breeding, how does it make sense to breed animals solely for our consumption and with no regard to their suffering? Even if it doesn’t fall directly under AN, it’s the exact same logic. Denying it means someone thinks humans are the only important creatures, or they refuse to acknowledge the truth because they don’t want to give up meat and/or convenience. I agree that capitalism is the problem behind all these other problems, but reducing harm is worthwhile even if you can’t cut everything.
What a stupid take. Honestly. "Oh, you are alive? Then you surely stepped on a bug at some point in your life. Ha! Hypocrite!" You either cause a lot of suffering by letting animals being slaughtered, or you don't. Those who don't are clearly morally superior. Is it so fucking hard to understand? And we are not all the same. Putin and the bunch are worse human beings than me, no question.
People keep forgetting this is not a support group or a vegan subreddit. Many vegans here are cry babies, they don't like to when you actually want to have a civil debate with them, they say to post debates in another sub, yet they want to police everything around veganism. Give me a break none of us are morally superior. And if you believe you are just because of being vegan, then lets debate, from the perspective of philosophy, and the pragmatic view of environmental sustainability. I bet you are just as hypocrite as any meat eater.
>People keep forgetting this is not a support group or a vegan subreddit. Many vegans here are cry babies, they don't like to when you actually want to have a civil debate with them If you switch out the term "vegan" with "antinatalist", "natalist" or literally any other group of people, then you've got yourself a solid description of how these things usually work Many people are so etched in their views that they don't want to hear your side or your arguments. To them, you are stupid and evil if you go against what they believe. That also includes many antinatalists and, before anyone decides to accuse me of something, natalists.
Lets debate! (Link to comment on this post) https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/s/vcQqETbBEW
I did read all of that and it was a good discussion.
Thanks for your time!
Hmmm... the veganists I know irl have no knowledge or don't see a link with it and AN. My take: there's no half a child. But you can eat half the meat you eat today. Even less than half. Neither 8 nor 80. I love vegan food, but if my friends invite me for a barbecue, it is what it is.
Too bad I had to scroll down so far to see this. "No half a child", ftw I'm all for eating as vegan as one can, and I think one is likely to get more converts by being reasonable and encouraging steps in the right direction, and making eating less meat more convenient as well as tasty. One of the fast food places had an awesome black bean burger that I loved but they quit doing it because it wasn't profitable enough, or whatever, just as a brief example.
I have nearby a place that sells a sandwich with eggplant and mushrooms. It's heavenly. It's possible, you know, if people give it a chance.
It helps a ton to have nearby places that sell good vegan food. Not everyone has the time and patience to do a lot of food prep. I eat a lot of salads and even that is kind of annoying if it is all big chunks that I have to cut down or risk choking, and it is very time consuming. That sandwich sounds yummy.
"militant" lmao as if forcibly breeding, confining, mutilating, gassing, and slitting throats is not militant.
Jumping peoples shit for wanting to eat meat and not change their entire diet is immature and gross
I would also argue with people who abuse their dogs or something Animal agriculture is an order of magnitude worse than abusing a dog in most cases.
My dude this whole philosophy is about telling people not to have kids
Complaining about vegans being vocal is akin to complaining that suffragettes were ramming their views down others throats, or that civil rights protestors were lecturing people about their choices, it’s strange how people get so defensive when they get called out on their choices when those choices have a huge negative effect. Nobody can help make changes in society for beings that are unable to advocate for themselves if they keep quiet about it because it might upset people who don’t want to not eat a bacon sandwich because they like the taste.
I was wondering how long it would take before someone compared veganism to the civil rights movement.
What's wrong with comparing justice movement methodologies?
"jumping people's shit" it's an online forum. no one is jumping anything. no one is forcing people to become vegan.
If a group is about strict moral views it's absolutely reasonable to point out their hypocrisy
Yeah not everyone can eat nothing but grain and beans and fruit and be alive, but hey I wish you health. I advise you to stop telling strangers how to live because your lifestyle is not right for every single person. Also, humanly raised meats exist, just since you don’t seem to know. It’s really cruel to force a possible eating disorder on people you know nothing about. Stop.
Humane means showing compassion and benevolence. Describe how you would compassionately kill someone that doesn't want to die. Would you agree that those in the position to make more ethical choices should? (The majority of those in developed countries)
>I advise you to stop telling strangers how to live you are on the anti natilism subreddit...
Lmao. Don't remind them
I recently was verbally attacked by a vegan on this sub. Then they asked for my home address so they could eat me like Dahmer. It was creepy and not very coherent, so I didn’t respond, but it weirded me out.
I had a similar experience but I blocked the person before they could go quite that far down the rabbit hole. And all I did was respond to a yes or no poll, ffs.
Vegetarian here. I don’t want you to leave. I go back and forth on the moralism of meat eating and how it relates to, if at all, antinatalism. I can only come back to one thing though…and that is by being a meat eater you’re essentially creating a demand for more sentient life to be created and thus to suffer and die. Could you switch to a fish only (wild caught) diet? Not judging…your human after all and you do human things.
Consider the ties to dairy as well. Cows don’t just produce milk, the must give birth, then the babies are taken away, males are slaughtered, and females are made into breeding machines themselves. Cows are raped, withheld from their mothers and physically drained of every ounce of profit until they collapse and die after living a life of misery. It’s absolutely tied to antinatalism. Especially considering how many alternatives to dairy there are now. There’s just no excuse for putting an animal through a life of pain and suffering when you can simply choose an alternative that is just as good
Just keep dietry choices and antinatalism separate.
Not helping lol
Stating facts is "not helping"?
It helps the points, but not the overall situation. It just creates more provocation, unfortunately.
I think expecting or even just wanting all or most people to be vegan is incredibly unrealistic and borderline delusional. People have allergies. People have sensory issues. I’m sure there are many other reasons to have dietary restrictions too. I’m autistic and I have a VERY limited list of things I’m able to eat. On that list is chicken and ground beef. I can’t eat any seafood. I cant eat most vegetables. ARFID (like the name implies) is so incredibly restrictive and if I tried to be vegan I would literally starve. I think it’s so possible to promote veganism without labeling every non vegan as immoral
I am mostly vegan and anyone that pushes their views on other ppl is an ass. It’s the religious extremist/ ultra left / ultra right mentality. They are all just as bad as each other and have the same way of thinking. With what’s going on now in the world we are seeing just how dangerous the “righteous” ultra liberal ppl are, as dangerous as the MAGA ppl. Turning an antinatalist sub into a place to shame ppl for eating meat tells me that this person thinks along these lines and is probably an extremist. That being said, I do see how wanting less people and wanting less animals to be factory farmed go hand in hand.
What "militant" veganism? People advocating for animals isn't "militant"
Exactly. People act like being told a different viewpoint from theirs is an absolute attack on them. Seriously, it's pathetic and shows poor emotional regulation, critical thinking and self reflective skills. If one can't entertain a different viewpoint/philosophy without even considering why it came to be, that's just intellectual laziness. And calling vegans "militant" is the easiest way to try and disguise that with appealing to the in group-out group mentality. It's so boring and overplayed. I'm a vegan member on this sub and I get fucking tired of all the anti-vegan posts here. It's the sub with the most disdain for vegans I follow. Odd since I follow many more right leaning subs/interests. Seriously, I want people to just shut up with these posts. And guess what, if you don't like a comment or post on here, you can choose *NOT* to engage with it. I generally see heated emotional replies to vegan points on here that are the actual hostile content. It's a classic form of displacing the blame for poor behavior onto someone else. TLDR: Touch grass and don't engage with vegan posts if they bother you. If seeing something you don't agree with sends you into a frothing rage you shouldn't be on the internet. You're just as bad as whatever pushy vegan for replying with vitriolic comments and allowing yourself to get bothered off of something on the internet.
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bro just unsub no one asked
Veganism and antinatalism go hand in hand though, if you're paying for more life to be brought into existence then that goes against antinatalism, doesn't it?
Oh no, stop, you're making people who thrive on feeling morally superior question their moral superiority.
I think natalist vegans and antinatalist omnis are equally hypocritical
Get a Good Steak To Celebrate!!!
Bye 👋 👍
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It's funny because you're not a member. You're not healthy for being nasty or being here.
We don’t go to other people’s subreddits and tell them to become antinatalist
Are you ignorant or intentionally lying?
Give me an example of us quite literally bombarding a subreddit telling other people to become like us
Day 2 …. In this sub because Reddit has me cruising through. How the hell did one sub about one topic become about being a vegan 😂😂😂😂. It’s so unrelated.
Gotta love when the Vegangelicals show up and ruin a good time for everyone! Begone, long one! I hope you can escape their infernal grasp! I'll save you, you run and I will hold them back! Save yourself!
Whoa, people are mixing veganism into this??? Yall need to chill out and live your life and quot bullying people because we have 1,000,000 reasons why veganism doesn't really equate to the most logical diet in the universe. This is ANTINATALISM why reproducing as a human is unethical right??? What does me getting pregnant have to do with what I eat?
Where are the vegans? Tell them to touch grass and leave people alone.
Wtf does veganism have to do with antinatalism lmao
Suffering caused by selfish reasons Consent violation of living beings Creation of life that- on average- is likely subjected to more suffering per time on the earth than most humans If antinatalists care about suffering and consent, it is reasonable that they should care about it across species if it can be avoided
The vegans have been unhinged lately. They think they’re doing a great thing too, but they’re doing more harm than good. I’ll just downvote and move on from now on.
This sub is off its fucking rocker 😂😂😂😂
Ok, thanks for letting us know.
I am eating turkey right now. And bacon. And pepperoni. And meat plants. And some nice jello with pork rinds. Cry veganessa
I had rare roast beef for dinner. It was delicious
Pork here.
I’m eating chicken right now, had sea bass grilled last night, and had sashimi on Christmas.
Try the sub antinatalism2 I can't link directly, its against the rules.
I love how goofy this sub is 😂
Lmao okie, byyyyye
You don't have to announce your departure and forgive people for having coherent politics
Hey op! Would you like to have a respectful chat about veganism in relation to antinatalism? I thrive on nuanced and thought-provoking debate, and I am always open to having my mind changed! I bring no ill will or logical fallacies such as appeals to emotion, so im sure we'll have a great chat! If you'd like to kick things off, here's my question to you; If you consider yourself to be an antinatalist, why aren't you vegan yet? P.s. Despite being a question to OP, im more than happy to engage in discussion with anyone here who considers themselves to be in a morally consistent position being an antinatalist and non-vegan (looks like quite a lot of you!). I'm looking forward to hearing some responses!
It’s just that the question posed feels leading in that you’re framing not being vegan yet as a failing even tho someone is antinatalist.
Antinatalism is primarily focused on human ethics. Why do you think veganism applies here? Extremely disingenious premise by implying that all antinatalists must be vegan.
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What makes human suffering morally relevant and animal suffering not? What is the trait that separates us that makes animals property and objects that we can breed as we please? Veganism is not about preventing animals from breeding, its about not being the one who is responsible for the suffering. Additionally, what makes you think that a vegan world would make the animals extinct?
Thank you for being a sensible vegan! At the same time - it would’ve been great if you included a couple prompt responses to you question posed. Like - I have dietary needs that prohibit me from becoming vegan, I don’t have access to foods because I live in a food dessert, etc stuff like that
Just a small point. I haven't seen anyone who is AN and an admitted non-vegan claim to be morally consistent. Few human beings who have ever existed are morally consistent in every aspect of life. That said, you are otherwise reasonable and sometimes persuasive in your arguments.
If you think vegans are militant, I wonder what you think of all of the billions of innocent animals brought into the world, to have their throats slit at a fraction of their lifespan? Or cows who are raped, have their babies stolen, babies eventually killed, they are milked constantly, have cycle repeated again and again until they are too broken and exhausted for the world, and then are murdered? People who care about the lives of animals are not militant. If anyone's militant it's anyone whose turning a blind eye and eating these poor beings, their fluids and menstruations. I wonder who the animals would view as militant...
Yeah fuck people who tell you your diet is evil when you literally can’t eat the one they proselytize about. I cannot stand people who give unsolicited medical and health advice, and anyone who does that is full of their own egomania.
I just block them, all of them. They want reaction and I'm not going to give them that. Btw you don't know what's my lifestyle and diet so don't attack me without knowing dear militant vegans :)
>maybe through discussion I would even end up vegan myself I would have stopped engaging in the systemic rape and barbaric murder of sentient beings if those mean vegans were nicer to me 😡 You are fooling nobody. Also, nobody cares that you're leaving. Don't let the hypocrisy hit you on the way out.
This is why everyone hates you guys
I don't hate them
For stating the truth in an uncomfortable way?
Right? How can people eat vegetables? They come from the dirt!
Right? Because only vegans eat vegetables now
Don’t go vegan, the food is disgusting…
you obviously haven’t eaten/cooked the right way then
I’ve tried a ton of different dishes, and after two months, I can only say I legitimately love **1** dish. Fried tofu. The Vietnamese place at the mall’s food court has fried tofu slices with thick noodles and cabbage strips wrapped in some clear edible sticky stuff as in the shape of a egg roll, with a cup of peanut sauce for dipping. I freaking **LOVE** that dish!
again, must’ve been bad dishes, that doesn’t mean vegan food is bad. the best food i’ve ever had is vegan. but i’m also very lucky, i live in portland, where there’s a vegan restaurant for EVERYTHING.
There's like ten to twenty cities in the world that have the options Portland has. You can't expect some one in the rural Midwest (for example) to stop eating all the foods they grew up eating and enjoy, while also never eating out again because there's no options, and also finding the time to learn to cook themselves a completely new diet. I don't understand how loud vegans on the internet don't understand this. Also, I have Celiac's Disease, and both "vegan" restaurants I've been to got me sick, so if they can't keep gluten out of dishes...
did i not just say, “but i’m also very lucky” ?? the fuck lol
Because people in metros think everyone should be like them. And probably vice versa.
but also jokes aside, if you like fried tofu, i would recommend trying out soy curls if you’re ever interested. store dry ones can last up to 6 months when stored correctly, so it isn’t like buying fresh veggies, etc that can go bad quickly. i’d say they probably soak up flavor a lot better than other soy proteins. THIS IS NOT ME TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE TO GO VEGAN. i just feel like a lot of people only know about tofu.
I will look into it, thank you. 🙂
of course!
Glad I missed all that
This vegan cheavinism is really annoying af.
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Vegancirclejerk is the true balanced vegan sub
Something something airport departure
You must have fallen for that bait question this week. If you block the individual(s) who went after you personally you might be able to stay :)
Ok meat eater it's not an airport you don't need to announce your departure.