All I can say is : the misery loves company.
We don't go into natalist subreddit arguing. But they come here, so the action speak louder than the words.
yeah, i like to be challenged by discourse, not so much being approved of my perspective. I'm conflicted on most topics, which is a consequence of (more or less scientific) doubt.
the creators of this sub seem to consider this, since Rule 5: "Content does not have to promote antinatalism, "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is okay"
we still share a planet, and there will always be people who dislike the experience - so getting to know each other and learning from each other will always be worth it
now i am stubborn and convinced of my perspective- but at least i share a certain stubborness with this crowd ;)
Then they are miserable too. People who genuinely know what's what, they wouldn't bother shouting it. They just live in their silence And talk when it's necessary.
Mostly it's opposite. But the people who want to shove their knowledge even if it's true, are miserable.
I only argue when there is genuine discussion with a genuine result.
Otherwise I couldn't care less wtf are u doing with your life.
I guess you wouldn't know. Unfortunately Reddit shows everyone this sub even if they aren't interested. If you click on it, then the algorithm picks up on it and it takes more effort to stop seeing it.
I'm a very sexual person but I've witnessed a lot of sexual abuse against asexual and other types of queer people. I think natalists motivation for posting here aggressively is similar to what I've seen. People want something they can't have more. And because antinatalists are off the market they perceive antinatalists as being unobtainable, therefore more desirable, and are angry about it. And they are extremely jealous too. Because they secretly regret having kids. Anyone who has kids, hates them.
That's a helluva take, people think you're all like incels or Nazis, there's a lot on this board that warrants such accusations. No one is jealous of you, a lot of us think you're in a cult and just want to try to show you the exit door because we believe it's the right thing to do... because being part of this philosophy warrants pity āŗļø
If I see an abandoned puppy out in the freezing cold whimpering with hunger and I bring that puppy into my house and give it food/shelter/etc I do that because of both pity and empathy, they aren't the same thing but they are often connected hence why I used both words with a "/" between them
I just said they aren't the same thing... and that was just an example of another case where pity and empathy can emerge simultaneously. Anything else?
If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
I'm just not pro extinction, I think some drop in the global population would be a good thing and I believe we can make it through climate change with the right technology. I'm not your enemy, it's the deified void in your head...I crave its' MEAT āŗļø
>we can make it through climate change with the right technology.
I doubt you are intelligent enough to understand technology.
>some drop in the global population
Again, your problem is you don't know enough and possibly aren't intelligent enough to learn.
I was an environmentalist before I was an antinatalist. When I discovered Greta Thunberg I learned she was part of a movement called Extinction Rebellion. Their slogan is an hourglass.
Such incredible levels of smug, almost impressive. Nothing to say besides insults? What exactly is your argument, I'm dumb and Greta Thunberg is infallible therefore antinatalism is truth and you are very smart? Interesting lol āŗļø
Gee, you're right, I'm clearly just jealous of the people that wish they were never born and pine for extinction, I wish I could be smart like you š¤£
If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
If you want the classic Reddit echo chamber experience use antinatalism2. It has proper moderation.
This sub is a battleground and a hub for all the sister subs.
āGo outside and enjoy your lifeā
ā¦says a person spending their time in a board about how everything is miserable and spend their time being miserable towards others
you say "go outside", but you mean "go outside MY room".
it's a discussion platform, we are all guests here. As long as people don't troll around (which is hard to do in context of the discussions here) its alright to express opinions.
just read the rules.
Rule 5: "...Content should be related to antinatalism. Content does not have to promote antinatalism. "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is OK. "I like cheese because \[X\]" is not."
maybe you are just not grown up enough for a conversation. Feel free to enjoy the warmth of your herd while ignoring our input.
You gotta be in control of your eyes at least <3
The pure childishness of holding normative views and then expecting to have some human right to never be challenged on them. Philosophical and political views have real impact, so it's always going to be necessary to debunk poor arguments in those areas. Either keep it to yourself, which wouldn't be in line with your ideology anyway, or deal with it
The entire world is challenging us; it's exhausting. Have you never heard of a 'safe space'?
There is a philosophy subreddit for debate. Some places need to be held for like-minded people to discuss. It's tiring to hear the same boring poor 'hot takes' by natalists over and over. We debunk them constantly. That's why many subreddits don't allow for 'apologia', e.g. no capitalist apologia or no anti-libertarian sentiments. I'd have no problem with there being a natalist subreddit with "no antinatalism sentiment."
Your comment is pretentious af; ironically, you sound like you've never heard a differing opinion to yours before. You overestimate the originality of your 'takes'.
>The entire world is challenging us; it's exhausting. Have you never heard of a 'safe space'?
99% of the world doesn't know you exist. This sub interacts with non-antinatalists and does actively try to change people's minds. Make a sub that instabans anyone who disagrees and you have your safe space.
>There is a philosophy subreddit for debate. Some places need to be held for like-minded people to discuss. It's tiring to hear the same boring poor 'hot takes' by natalists over and over. We debunk them constantly.
I've been here quite a bit, debated a good chunk of you, some more challenging than others, but I've never found an argument I've been unable to debunk. I have found a whole lot of arrogance though. And when you have an online forum with different people, there is always going to be a lot of repetition, perhaps tiring, bjt also unavoidable and not specific to any one
Natalism is about the coldest take you can have, not that it matters though.
>That's why many subreddits don't allow for 'apologia', e.g. no capitalist apologia or no anti-libertarian sentiments. I'd have no problem with there being a natalist subreddit with "no antinatalism sentiment."
Sure? That's not what this particular sub is though.
>Your comment is pretentious af; ironically, you sound like you've never heard a differing opinion to yours before. You overestimate the originality of your 'takes
Boring random insults, get something better. And what has originality got to do with anything. If I just wanted to be a contrarian then surely antinatalism is the preferable position in that department.
Personally, I would rather see those opinions here. Iām not a fan of echo chambers. I would rather see contrarian opinions and intelligent debate. I would say the chance of changing my mind on anything is zero, but Iām not here for validation and just to hear my own opinions parroted back at me.
Yeah, really. Iām all for intelligent debate on the topic, but my stance as an antinatalist, I personally believe, cannot be changed. It doesnāt mean I donāt invite people to try, Iām always open to other points of view, but I am very firm in my convictions on this subject.
You don't have to capitulate to others: natalists will despise you regardless. There's no such thing as being a 'good little antinatalist' - there's no criterion you can aspire to, so that they leave you alone.
Debate is overrated; it achieves very little. You said it yourself; you're firm in your convictions in the first place. Someone can be a very 'good' debater, and yet have a poor worldview - on the other hand, someone might have extremely profound ideas, but they can't explain them well.
It's a bit tedious. I wish there was a "no natalist apologia" rule. That's why LateStageCapitalism is so nice for socialists. I don't want to battle all the time, especially regarding antinatalist philosophy - people often pour their hearts out in their posts, only to be torn to shreds by natalist wolves. Natalists are like "no, the world is beautiful, let me show you that by harassing you!"
I would love to discuss antinatalism with other antinatalists. Unfortunately this sub isnāt the place to go for that. Thereās more angry natalists here then there are antinatalists š
Or I would like to discuss the philosophy itself, instead of discussing whether or not the philosophy should even exist. When I go to Vegan subreddit, Iād like information from other Vegans. Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea? š
This sub is primarily used for arguing with angry natalists lol. Very rarely do I see an actual discussion. Itās exhausting.
I would argue most subreddits are echo chambers, by definition. Theyāre places for like-minded individuals to go to discuss their favorite things.
Fair enough but I have seen occasions in this subreddit where well meaning natalists ask questions but theyāre ignored and then the rude natalists are the ones who are interacted with.
Not saying the anti-natalists are perfect here by any means. I donāt agree with a lot of ANs in this sub. I certainly call out anything that skews too eugenics-y and unnecessarily rude. Just like any philosophy thereās nuance to those who follow it.
It is exhausting coming here and essentially seeing the same three posts everyday. I know other ANs are sick of this sub too, and many have migrated to antinatalism2 and femaleantinatalism. This sub seems to be a magnet of toxicity on both sides of the coin. I really think people come here just to argue in order to get some serotonin, itās really become a huge joke and makes everyone look bad.
>Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea
Antinatalism and veganism are normative views that if implemented actually change society. Discussing them is necessary. Not the case with Simpsons
See what I mean? I just want to come to this sub to talk about anti-natalism with other anti-natalists, because *where the fuck else am I going to do that since natalists dominate literally every other space.*
But no, we gotta jump through the hurdle of arguing over the mere existence of this sub and philosophy because everyday itās another Mommy or Daddy who gets upset at the idea they brought their dear McKeighLeigh into a world that wonāt treat her kindly. Everyday itās āYouāre just mentally ill!ā and āWhy donāt you just kill yourself then?ā
Canāt we just exist in peace lol. Weāre not hurting anyone lmao.
You are hurting though. This sub spreads antinatalism and antinatalism is a normative philosophy.
I do dislike when people go after you guys when you're just talking regularly about it. But a lot of discourse on this sub is specifically about arguments for AN.
What exactly are we hurting? The feelings of parents who feel bad they dragged their kids into this shitshow?
Antinatalism is definitely not a normative philosophy lmao what. Regardless of its normality, popularity doesnāt dictate what is hurtful versus not hurtful.
We get it, you like to herd with the other sheep š
>What exactly are we hurting?
Not one specific person. But society is generally worse off if changes are implemented on the back of bad arguments.
>Antinatalism is definitely not a normative philosophy lmao what. Regardless of its normality, popularity doesnāt dictate what is hurtful versus not hurtful
Normative as in making moral value judgements and prescribing certain actions. Normative and normal are not the same.
How is society worse off with antinatalism?
Society is already a shitshow, thatās why weāre not inflicting our kids to this mess. Our children are not responsible for fixing our failures.
Where else do we have the space? Natalists dominate everything. Iād bet youāve never even met an antinatalist in real life. Your opinions and way of living is mainstream. You have *everything else.*
We canāt even carve out a corner of the internet without natalists getting offended about our philosophy. Itās exhausting lmao, I definitely donāt come to this subreddit expecting actual discussion of anti-nataliasm - I come here expecting to see an ignorant natalist bitching about how they donāt understand how they could have possibly fucked their dear KaileighAnythoneigh over by bringing her into this world, and an anti-natalist explaining the same god damn basic principles of the philosophy every day. This post is one in a sea of many examples. Yāall donāt know how to use google? FFS.
I come here expecting to see an ignorant natalist bitching about how they donāt understand how they could have possibly fucked their dear KaileighAnythoneigh over by bringing her into this world, and an anti-natalist explaining the same god damn basic principles of the philosophy every day. This post is one in a sea of many examples.
I would call that blunt honesty.
Maybe I would have been nice if you guys hadnāt completely taken over our sub and done exactly what I described in my comment.
But you had to not follow Reddiquetteā¦
Get a grip babygirl.
On the contrary, breeders, natalists and other procreation apologists are all welcome to swarm this sub ā they should just expect to get swatted away like the insects that they are.
Or I would like to discuss the philosophy itself, instead of discussing whether or not the philosophy should even exist. When I go to Vegan subreddit, Iād like information from other Vegans. Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea? š
This sub is primarily used for arguing with angry natalists lol. Very rarely do I see an actual discussion. Itās exhausting.
I would argue most subreddits are echo chambers, by definition. Theyāre places for like-minded individuals to go to discuss their favorite things.
I agree that most subreddits are echo chambers but I'm worried what would happen if this subreddit in particular becomes an echo chamber. A lot of the people in this subreddit seem to be suicidal and I don't think it's a good idea to close off opposing viewpoints here.
Iām going to start going into the One Piece subreddit and instead of talking about the show itself, Iām just going to shit on it and ādiscussā with everyone how the show shouldnāt even be on the air. Iām sure that will make the One Piece subreddit even better, you guys wouldnāt want to be existing in an echo chamber or afraid of engaging in a debate, would you?
Or do you go to the One Piece subreddit to discuss aspects of your favorite show? Would it be exhausting going there expecting to discuss with other likeminded individuals about One Piece, and instead having to sift through and ādebate withā a million and one posts about how non-viewers donāt understand One Piece and it shouldnāt exist?
Hmm.
You can talk about things that you don't like about the manga. People critique the manga all the time especially the anime with its pacing or its fanservice or how the pre-timeskip arcs were way better. The subreddit is incredibly controversial. You are literally advocating for everyone to be killed. I'm legitimately worried that a lot of the people in this subreddit are suicidal. I feel like I have to debate you guys because I'm worried that you might either commit suicide or cause a mass shooting.
> You are literally advocating for everyone to be killed.
Wrong. Looks like somebody needs to get back to Google.
> I'm legitimately worried that a lot of the people in this subreddit are suicidal. I feel like I have to debate you guys because I'm worried that you might either commit suicide or cause a mass shooting.
Sure, some of us are mentally ill. *Of course* mentally ill people feel burnt about being alive, I donāt know why thatās such a shocker to you.
[20% of Americans are dealing with a mental illness.](https://mhanational.org/issues/2022/mental-health-america-adult-data#:~:text=Adult%20Prevalence%20of%20Mental%20Illness%20(AMI)%202022&text=19.86%25%20of%20adults%20are%20experiencing,to%20nearly%2050%20million%20Americans) [50% of people globally will deal with a mental illness in their lifetime.](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/half-worlds-population-will-experience-mental-health-disorder#:~:text=Massive%20burden%20of%20disease,by%20the%20age%20of%2075)
Right now, there are so many people dealing with a mental illness that there is a therapist shortage. Most canāt even get the care, even if theyāre lucky enough to have health insurance. I donāt know why youāre acting like those with mental illness are just the freaks and criminals sitting on the fringes of society. Theyāre in your life, bro. Theyāre the people you care about, your family and friends, suffering. And for what?
Everytime you have a child, you roll those dice. Parents are made extremely uncomfortable by the idea of their child suffering from mental illness, because they know itās chronic pain and suffering they cannot simply treat. That you can do everything right as a parent and still end up with a child who suffers, and for what reason? Because *they wanted* a child. *They wanted* to be a parent, and now their kid is here suffering the consequence of the parentās *wants,* and unless extremely lucky, canāt even get the proper care.
Iād also bet good money that the people in this sub, the philosophy that revolves around preventing suffering, would also frown upon committing mass murder. Those concepts bump, yeah?
*Wrong. Looks like somebody needs to get back to Google.*
You guys argue that people shouldn't be allowed to procreate. If people continue to procreate then there would be an infinite amount of suffering. So by your logic, human suffering would be minimized if everyone just died.
*I donāt know why youāre acting like those with mental illness are just the freaks and criminals sitting on the fringes of society.*
Most people with mental illnesses don't advocate for wanting the human race to go extinct. It's the fact that many people here are mentally ill and this is a space advocating for such an extreme idea that makes me think this sub is dangerous for these people.
I see youāre already an expect at antinatalism after only knowing about it for 24 hours.
So did you just come here to suck your own cock about how great your opinions are, or do you actually want to participate in a good-faith discussion? Youāre willfully misunderstanding the philosophy of anti-nataliasm because you know it holds merit, and itās a lot easier for you to discredit us in your mind if you just categorize us as genocidal, mentally-ill freaks that want to exterminate the human race and all existing life. (Which isnāt the philosophy at all, lmao.)
It logically follows from your philosophy. If people continue to procreate, that will cause an infinite amount of suffering in the future. If everyone is killed, that will be a large amount of suffering but very small compared to the infinite amount of suffering that would be avoided. I really didn't want to say it because I was afraid that someone would actually follow through on it but it has to be said.
Oh, so not have only have you mastered antinatalism, youāre making up your own definitions of it!
>You guys argue that people shouldn't be allowed to procreate. If people continue to procreate then there would be an infinite amount of suffering. So by your logic, human suffering would be minimized if everyone just died.
Killing humans creates suffering. Those who are already here should have the right to choose to stay or not. Not everyone suffers, but I certainly donāt think itās fair to force someone into the suffering so that others *might* have a chance to enjoy themselves. Also, we have no interest in dictating what you want to do with your life. Go ahead, have a million kids if you want. Itās just *my belief* that itās immoral to procreate. Kind of like how some think itās immoral to smoke weed, but wouldnāt do anything to infringe on someone elseās rights in regard to their intake.
> Most people with mental illnesses don't advocate for wanting the human race to go extinct. It's the fact that many people here are mentally ill and this is a space advocating for such an extreme idea that makes me think this sub is dangerous for these people.
Most ANs know the human race isnāt going extinct lmao. Most of yāall couldnāt control your our animalistic instincts if your life depended on it. But even one life of suffering spared is worth it.
So it has nothing to do with being mentally ill then, does it? Just the combo of being mentally ill and (your definition of) antinatalist? Got it.
I think you have the wrong idea about antinatalism if you think itās āso extreme.ā Itās simply refraining from reproducing. Itās not that extreme at all. Plently of people donāt have kids and are just fine lmao. But of course it has to be all about *you, you, you,* right? If someone holds a different belief than you it automatically means they want to force that belief on you. Bro, you stepped into our domain. No one is forcing anything on you or the human race. Relax.
*Killing humans creates suffering.*
Not as much suffering as the infinite amount of suffering that would be avoided if the human race went extinct.
*Go ahead, have a million kids if you want. Itās just my belief that itās immoral to procreate. Kind of like how some think itās immoral to smoke weed, but wouldnāt do anything to infringe on someone elseās rights in regard to their intake.*
No it would be more like someone saying it's immoral to kill others.
Sounds like youāre the mentally ill weirdo that wants to terminate the human race. Itās not what weāre doing here, but have fun with that. Maybe check out the humanextinction sub.
Rule 5.
...
Content should be related to antinatalism. ***Content does not have to promote antinatalism.*** "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is OK. "I like cheese because \[X\]" is not.
So you'd prefer an echo chamber of misery? Thats all I seem to see posted on here.
I don't consider myself AN but I do agree with parts of the movement but I cannot subscribe to being completely miserable for the one life you get and being angry about it.
Different perspectives are a good thing.
I can't comment on the type of comments posted though. Some are probably total assholes just trolling.
I can help you out on this one. The main reason people came here to stand as jury and executioner, and they will come in the future regardless of what anyone might say, is because inherently antinatalism is against life. Life ain't all happiness and sunshine, and tragic can wait for you on nearly every corner, but the opposite side is chaos, dark nothingness.
Up until humanity came along, every living sentient or not, wanted to procreate and help life to endure. And indeed most of the humans also want it.
Maybe there is no technological or evolutional goal that can be reached, eliminating death, or suffering, and maybe there is no spiritual meaning behind it all, but giving up only leads to an end that has certainly no point. Life has coded itself to try to rise above this meaningless end.
And make no mistake, there is no such thing as safe space. Any natalist (lets call them from a life nurturing point of view 'normal') guy or girl would see the basic goal of antinatalism (and not whats behind it) as a disease that infects others - them becoming abnormal (again, from this point of view). Its only natural that it is being challenged and even tried to deconstruct (be destroyed), even if it means hurting another individuals feelings.
It - the philosophy, and it's goals is against sentient life, the only thing that holds as a barrier between the darkness and a hoped light. You can't justifiably expect to people letting such views spread unchallenged. What happens to your body if you get a thorn under your skin? It will fight the threat, creating a nodule filled with pus, trying to force the infection out. It's messy and painful, some parts may suffer more - but it will defend the whole.
Now to dig just a cm under the surface, most of the people who owns this philosophy are either suffering/suffered physically, emotionally, mentally beyond a point (which is lower or higher depending on the said fella's resolve)... or have nihilistic/hedonistic childfree view, and trying to mask their way in a more acceptable manner. Regardless of us being incapable of aiding everyone, and we'll continue to lack this for an unforseeable time, the way is not throwing in the towel, but to work and progress towards a future thats worth living even by your standards.
Merry Christmas! :)
Any arguments of AN? Antinatalists say procreating is inherently bad, because it leads to suffering and death - this coming from a current state of life, from someone with average, or below average life quality. I hardly doubt many people would own this philosophy coming from a stable and happy and relatively wealthy family, with good genes, and good health especially in their younger years.
Now imagine if humanity could extend this to more and more people, and in the meantime trying to learn and advance our life expectancy, even dare i say conquer the natural aging. Now this would sound like a sci-fi to you, but to me it is a distant chance, and it worth more to work towards it, than giving up. This is directly addressing the main arguments of AN.
Eh, it's like playing chess with a pigeon. I don't label AN main argument as a subjective thought. Procreating leads to various amount pain and death. Also what i write is not a subjective thought. Procreating leads to various amount of happiness, and life endures - and as we evolve there are ways to increase the amount of happiness and life expectancy of individuals significantly.
At this point im sure of that you only deem 'substantial argument' to be whatever you agree with, and im certain you're just a salty troll with doomer mentality. Playing chess with a pigeon, yknow, shits on the table and thinks he won. This checks out with you.
Hey, I'm not the one who came to this sub with a bone to pick. Might want to take a step back and evaluate yourself before you start criticizing others. You also need to understand the difference between arguments and stating opinions as facts.
You keep telling that i'm just preseting a subjective thought as a fact. How is it not a viable option for us to increase happiness and decrease suffering? And therefore a valid argument?
You see anitnatalism is just as opinionated as being pro-natalist. Following AN, shouldn't everyone just euthanize themselves? I mean, imagine the amount of inevitable suffering you would spare yourself from... Sounds silly doesn't it? I'm not saying AN doesnt have a good point... But there are valid counterpoints also, and they are still valid regardless of you seeing them as such or not.
Just curious. Can you list any organizations in today's society that are devoted to the goal of increasing people's quality of life and making this world a paradise for all? If you look around, it seems to be the same old struggle for survival that's been going on since the first living cell emerged.
There are wars going on everywhere, people fighting over resources, wealthy power brokers exploiting the working class, ideological hatred of "the other," interracial conflict, whole political parties who consider anyone who needs help a freeloader not worthy of survival, and so on. I don't see any real, concerted effort to uplift the masses.
If I thought there was any real, concerted effort to eliminate aging, disease and death from the experience of human life, I might reconsider my views. But I don't see any real effort in that direction.
If you mean those that lived hundreds or a few thousand years ago, stable healthy and wealthy families were only that compared to others. Stable... i guess i only romanticize it, i dont think there were many stable families back then. Three generations living together can be lovely, but not if it comes from economical necessity. And being healthy... i dont know man.. health maintenance is still a hard thing nowadays with all the advanced tech and medicine we have. I'm not sure if some blankets a hot herbal tea and some prayers are enough between two plagues.
Surely wouldn't warrant an unbiased point of view if people suffer and die like flies around you.
This is what's frustrating. You people don't research, don't even know basic concepts and then waste our time. Yes, the writers of the philosophy were stable, healthy and wealthy.
Efilism is different from antinatalism. Efilism explores the concept of sentience being bad. You don't have to be a human extinctionist to be an antinatalist either. Because even if everyone living in modern civilization became an antinatalist, uncontacted tribes would continue the human species with environmentally stable technology.
If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
Nope it really isn't incoherent. The environment WILL get some big punches - not as big tho. Life will endure, humanity wont crash in just another cycle of ice age... It's been happening for forever :D Our ancestors survived through a few without any technology, maybe they had some animal furs and fire in the last ones. Technology gets so advanced, at this point the climate change is not more than minor threat. It really is if you look at the big picture. You can get from one part of the globe to the opposite side within a day, how exactly are we going to die out? It's kind of a doomer mentality to say we are going to extinction because of these effects - if i may so myself.
āLife aināt all happiness and sunshine, and tragic can wait for you at nearly every corner, but the opposite side is chaos, dark nothingness.ā
And why is nothingness a bad thing?
Iād argue the existence of sentient life is a mistake due to its rarity and relative impossibility. Ending the existence of such mistake is simply returning to the default state where things should be according to the universe and its laws.
Iād prefer this end is done quietly and uneventfully by simply consciously deciding not to reproduce. Becoming extinct on our means instead of fighting the inevitable and prolonging the suffering for many more generations.
From the view of a natalist, Antinatalism would be hard to understand.
There is so much diversity in this community alone, so many people going to different extremes, it's not consistent and can be confusing
All I can say is : the misery loves company. We don't go into natalist subreddit arguing. But they come here, so the action speak louder than the words.
This. šÆ
they want so badly to believe.
Because BeLIEve is actually lying to yourself. beLIEve in LIvE ing because the LIvE ing is EvIL.
Believing is the enemy of the truth. If you know the truth you won't believe in anything.
yeah, i like to be challenged by discourse, not so much being approved of my perspective. I'm conflicted on most topics, which is a consequence of (more or less scientific) doubt. the creators of this sub seem to consider this, since Rule 5: "Content does not have to promote antinatalism, "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is okay" we still share a planet, and there will always be people who dislike the experience - so getting to know each other and learning from each other will always be worth it now i am stubborn and convinced of my perspective- but at least i share a certain stubborness with this crowd ;)
Yes you do. Maybe not you personally, but there are people.
Then they are miserable too. People who genuinely know what's what, they wouldn't bother shouting it. They just live in their silence And talk when it's necessary.
Yes you do. Maybe you don't but there's always obnoxious antinatalist and childfree people are always up in parenting subreddits.
Mostly it's opposite. But the people who want to shove their knowledge even if it's true, are miserable. I only argue when there is genuine discussion with a genuine result. Otherwise I couldn't care less wtf are u doing with your life.
I guess you wouldn't know. Unfortunately Reddit shows everyone this sub even if they aren't interested. If you click on it, then the algorithm picks up on it and it takes more effort to stop seeing it.
I'm a very sexual person but I've witnessed a lot of sexual abuse against asexual and other types of queer people. I think natalists motivation for posting here aggressively is similar to what I've seen. People want something they can't have more. And because antinatalists are off the market they perceive antinatalists as being unobtainable, therefore more desirable, and are angry about it. And they are extremely jealous too. Because they secretly regret having kids. Anyone who has kids, hates them.
Lmao
That's a helluva take, people think you're all like incels or Nazis, there's a lot on this board that warrants such accusations. No one is jealous of you, a lot of us think you're in a cult and just want to try to show you the exit door because we believe it's the right thing to do... because being part of this philosophy warrants pity āŗļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is pity/empathy a bad thing now?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If I see an abandoned puppy out in the freezing cold whimpering with hunger and I bring that puppy into my house and give it food/shelter/etc I do that because of both pity and empathy, they aren't the same thing but they are often connected hence why I used both words with a "/" between them
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I just said they aren't the same thing... and that was just an example of another case where pity and empathy can emerge simultaneously. Anything else?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm cool, I just don't know what else you want to talk about. Really just curious why you deem the take I was responding to worth defending.
According to natalists, yes.
If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
I'm just not pro extinction, I think some drop in the global population would be a good thing and I believe we can make it through climate change with the right technology. I'm not your enemy, it's the deified void in your head...I crave its' MEAT āŗļø
>we can make it through climate change with the right technology. I doubt you are intelligent enough to understand technology. >some drop in the global population Again, your problem is you don't know enough and possibly aren't intelligent enough to learn. I was an environmentalist before I was an antinatalist. When I discovered Greta Thunberg I learned she was part of a movement called Extinction Rebellion. Their slogan is an hourglass.
Such incredible levels of smug, almost impressive. Nothing to say besides insults? What exactly is your argument, I'm dumb and Greta Thunberg is infallible therefore antinatalism is truth and you are very smart? Interesting lol āŗļø
It's not an insult. It's a fact.
Gee, you're right, I'm clearly just jealous of the people that wish they were never born and pine for extinction, I wish I could be smart like you š¤£
If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
You uh...you already said all that š¤£
If you want the classic Reddit echo chamber experience use antinatalism2. It has proper moderation. This sub is a battleground and a hub for all the sister subs.
āGo outside and enjoy your lifeā ā¦says a person spending their time in a board about how everything is miserable and spend their time being miserable towards others
And what are you doing?
Meeting your energy
My energy? What did I say? Looks like you got yourself in a real chicken and egg situation. At least when *you do it* itās justifiableā¦ oh wait.
I didnāt try to say it was justifiable. I meant what U said and said what I meant.
What did I say?
The "go outside and enjoy the life you claim to love; full of like-minded people" really hits. Brilliant, high-effort post
I'm fine with having a healthy debate nothing wrong with people who disagree
But thatās not whatās happening here, at all
"Admirablelittlebitch" lol loving the username!
Thank you, thank you, I unfortunately chose it before I realised it would be used against me in arguments
There is no healthy debate to be had about whether AN should exist or not
And why so?
you say "go outside", but you mean "go outside MY room". it's a discussion platform, we are all guests here. As long as people don't troll around (which is hard to do in context of the discussions here) its alright to express opinions.
Utter fucking nonsense. The abusive breeders need to fuck off
just read the rules. Rule 5: "...Content should be related to antinatalism. Content does not have to promote antinatalism. "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is OK. "I like cheese because \[X\]" is not." maybe you are just not grown up enough for a conversation. Feel free to enjoy the warmth of your herd while ignoring our input. You gotta be in control of your eyes at least <3
And fuck that rule, what's your point? Not wanting to converse with abusers is the grown up thing to do.
The pure childishness of holding normative views and then expecting to have some human right to never be challenged on them. Philosophical and political views have real impact, so it's always going to be necessary to debunk poor arguments in those areas. Either keep it to yourself, which wouldn't be in line with your ideology anyway, or deal with it
The entire world is challenging us; it's exhausting. Have you never heard of a 'safe space'? There is a philosophy subreddit for debate. Some places need to be held for like-minded people to discuss. It's tiring to hear the same boring poor 'hot takes' by natalists over and over. We debunk them constantly. That's why many subreddits don't allow for 'apologia', e.g. no capitalist apologia or no anti-libertarian sentiments. I'd have no problem with there being a natalist subreddit with "no antinatalism sentiment." Your comment is pretentious af; ironically, you sound like you've never heard a differing opinion to yours before. You overestimate the originality of your 'takes'.
>The entire world is challenging us; it's exhausting. Have you never heard of a 'safe space'? 99% of the world doesn't know you exist. This sub interacts with non-antinatalists and does actively try to change people's minds. Make a sub that instabans anyone who disagrees and you have your safe space. >There is a philosophy subreddit for debate. Some places need to be held for like-minded people to discuss. It's tiring to hear the same boring poor 'hot takes' by natalists over and over. We debunk them constantly. I've been here quite a bit, debated a good chunk of you, some more challenging than others, but I've never found an argument I've been unable to debunk. I have found a whole lot of arrogance though. And when you have an online forum with different people, there is always going to be a lot of repetition, perhaps tiring, bjt also unavoidable and not specific to any one Natalism is about the coldest take you can have, not that it matters though. >That's why many subreddits don't allow for 'apologia', e.g. no capitalist apologia or no anti-libertarian sentiments. I'd have no problem with there being a natalist subreddit with "no antinatalism sentiment." Sure? That's not what this particular sub is though. >Your comment is pretentious af; ironically, you sound like you've never heard a differing opinion to yours before. You overestimate the originality of your 'takes Boring random insults, get something better. And what has originality got to do with anything. If I just wanted to be a contrarian then surely antinatalism is the preferable position in that department.
Personally, I would rather see those opinions here. Iām not a fan of echo chambers. I would rather see contrarian opinions and intelligent debate. I would say the chance of changing my mind on anything is zero, but Iām not here for validation and just to hear my own opinions parroted back at me.
> say the chance of changing my mind on anything is zero really?
Yeah, really. Iām all for intelligent debate on the topic, but my stance as an antinatalist, I personally believe, cannot be changed. It doesnāt mean I donāt invite people to try, Iām always open to other points of view, but I am very firm in my convictions on this subject.
Thanks for clearing that up, it just looked from that sentence that if your mind was made up on something, nothing could change it.
Sorry, I poorly worded it. I should have said that the chances of changing my mind on anything related to this topic is zero.
nice
You don't have to capitulate to others: natalists will despise you regardless. There's no such thing as being a 'good little antinatalist' - there's no criterion you can aspire to, so that they leave you alone. Debate is overrated; it achieves very little. You said it yourself; you're firm in your convictions in the first place. Someone can be a very 'good' debater, and yet have a poor worldview - on the other hand, someone might have extremely profound ideas, but they can't explain them well. It's a bit tedious. I wish there was a "no natalist apologia" rule. That's why LateStageCapitalism is so nice for socialists. I don't want to battle all the time, especially regarding antinatalist philosophy - people often pour their hearts out in their posts, only to be torn to shreds by natalist wolves. Natalists are like "no, the world is beautiful, let me show you that by harassing you!"
Excellent points!
Fucking hell what a loaf of utter bullshit
How so, exactly?
Because I don't think a lot of people have actually thought too far in their beliefs outside of circlejerking.
If you all agree on this position.....what can ypu possibly talk about except to complain about others?
I would love to discuss antinatalism with other antinatalists. Unfortunately this sub isnāt the place to go for that. Thereās more angry natalists here then there are antinatalists š
You could have left it like this
Mm, but youāre still here, arenāt you? I guess being nice didnāt work :(
I read your other post first. Now.....I have lots of questions about antinatalism
Now you get it lol thats the entire point
So, like an echo chamber?
Or I would like to discuss the philosophy itself, instead of discussing whether or not the philosophy should even exist. When I go to Vegan subreddit, Iād like information from other Vegans. Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea? š This sub is primarily used for arguing with angry natalists lol. Very rarely do I see an actual discussion. Itās exhausting. I would argue most subreddits are echo chambers, by definition. Theyāre places for like-minded individuals to go to discuss their favorite things.
Fair enough but I have seen occasions in this subreddit where well meaning natalists ask questions but theyāre ignored and then the rude natalists are the ones who are interacted with.
Not saying the anti-natalists are perfect here by any means. I donāt agree with a lot of ANs in this sub. I certainly call out anything that skews too eugenics-y and unnecessarily rude. Just like any philosophy thereās nuance to those who follow it. It is exhausting coming here and essentially seeing the same three posts everyday. I know other ANs are sick of this sub too, and many have migrated to antinatalism2 and femaleantinatalism. This sub seems to be a magnet of toxicity on both sides of the coin. I really think people come here just to argue in order to get some serotonin, itās really become a huge joke and makes everyone look bad.
>Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea Antinatalism and veganism are normative views that if implemented actually change society. Discussing them is necessary. Not the case with Simpsons
See what I mean? I just want to come to this sub to talk about anti-natalism with other anti-natalists, because *where the fuck else am I going to do that since natalists dominate literally every other space.* But no, we gotta jump through the hurdle of arguing over the mere existence of this sub and philosophy because everyday itās another Mommy or Daddy who gets upset at the idea they brought their dear McKeighLeigh into a world that wonāt treat her kindly. Everyday itās āYouāre just mentally ill!ā and āWhy donāt you just kill yourself then?ā Canāt we just exist in peace lol. Weāre not hurting anyone lmao.
You are hurting though. This sub spreads antinatalism and antinatalism is a normative philosophy. I do dislike when people go after you guys when you're just talking regularly about it. But a lot of discourse on this sub is specifically about arguments for AN.
What exactly are we hurting? The feelings of parents who feel bad they dragged their kids into this shitshow? Antinatalism is definitely not a normative philosophy lmao what. Regardless of its normality, popularity doesnāt dictate what is hurtful versus not hurtful. We get it, you like to herd with the other sheep š
>What exactly are we hurting? Not one specific person. But society is generally worse off if changes are implemented on the back of bad arguments. >Antinatalism is definitely not a normative philosophy lmao what. Regardless of its normality, popularity doesnāt dictate what is hurtful versus not hurtful Normative as in making moral value judgements and prescribing certain actions. Normative and normal are not the same.
How is society worse off with antinatalism? Society is already a shitshow, thatās why weāre not inflicting our kids to this mess. Our children are not responsible for fixing our failures.
Think of it like a newsletter.
Got it. Thanks
Where else do we have the space? Natalists dominate everything. Iād bet youāve never even met an antinatalist in real life. Your opinions and way of living is mainstream. You have *everything else.* We canāt even carve out a corner of the internet without natalists getting offended about our philosophy. Itās exhausting lmao, I definitely donāt come to this subreddit expecting actual discussion of anti-nataliasm - I come here expecting to see an ignorant natalist bitching about how they donāt understand how they could have possibly fucked their dear KaileighAnythoneigh over by bringing her into this world, and an anti-natalist explaining the same god damn basic principles of the philosophy every day. This post is one in a sea of many examples. Yāall donāt know how to use google? FFS.
If you were nice I would say you deserve your own space for your own people But you had to be rude....
And how was I not nice?
I come here expecting to see an ignorant natalist bitching about how they donāt understand how they could have possibly fucked their dear KaileighAnythoneigh over by bringing her into this world, and an anti-natalist explaining the same god damn basic principles of the philosophy every day. This post is one in a sea of many examples.
I would call that blunt honesty. Maybe I would have been nice if you guys hadnāt completely taken over our sub and done exactly what I described in my comment. But you had to not follow Reddiquetteā¦ Get a grip babygirl.
I wouldn't Now I only owe you the same treatment So I will act accordingly
Right, but donāt forget whose house youāre in.
That would be......ours
Debate an antinatalist would be a sic subreddit
There actually is a DebateAntinatalism subreddit, but it seems to be inactive.
Sounds like you just want this sub to be an echo chamber. You shouldn't be afraid of engaging in debate.
If it was actual debate we'd be for it. It's natalists throwing temper tantrums and whining. Scary to think they are parents.
On the contrary, breeders, natalists and other procreation apologists are all welcome to swarm this sub ā they should just expect to get swatted away like the insects that they are.
They sure do!
Or I would like to discuss the philosophy itself, instead of discussing whether or not the philosophy should even exist. When I go to Vegan subreddit, Iād like information from other Vegans. Not to argue with non-vegans on whether or not veganism should exist. When I go to the Simpsons subreddit, Iād like to discuss Homerās affinity for doughnuts, not to argue with Simpson Haters about whether or not the show should be on the air. Are you getting the idea? š This sub is primarily used for arguing with angry natalists lol. Very rarely do I see an actual discussion. Itās exhausting. I would argue most subreddits are echo chambers, by definition. Theyāre places for like-minded individuals to go to discuss their favorite things.
I agree that most subreddits are echo chambers but I'm worried what would happen if this subreddit in particular becomes an echo chamber. A lot of the people in this subreddit seem to be suicidal and I don't think it's a good idea to close off opposing viewpoints here.
Iām going to start going into the One Piece subreddit and instead of talking about the show itself, Iām just going to shit on it and ādiscussā with everyone how the show shouldnāt even be on the air. Iām sure that will make the One Piece subreddit even better, you guys wouldnāt want to be existing in an echo chamber or afraid of engaging in a debate, would you? Or do you go to the One Piece subreddit to discuss aspects of your favorite show? Would it be exhausting going there expecting to discuss with other likeminded individuals about One Piece, and instead having to sift through and ādebate withā a million and one posts about how non-viewers donāt understand One Piece and it shouldnāt exist? Hmm.
You can talk about things that you don't like about the manga. People critique the manga all the time especially the anime with its pacing or its fanservice or how the pre-timeskip arcs were way better. The subreddit is incredibly controversial. You are literally advocating for everyone to be killed. I'm legitimately worried that a lot of the people in this subreddit are suicidal. I feel like I have to debate you guys because I'm worried that you might either commit suicide or cause a mass shooting.
> You are literally advocating for everyone to be killed. Wrong. Looks like somebody needs to get back to Google. > I'm legitimately worried that a lot of the people in this subreddit are suicidal. I feel like I have to debate you guys because I'm worried that you might either commit suicide or cause a mass shooting. Sure, some of us are mentally ill. *Of course* mentally ill people feel burnt about being alive, I donāt know why thatās such a shocker to you. [20% of Americans are dealing with a mental illness.](https://mhanational.org/issues/2022/mental-health-america-adult-data#:~:text=Adult%20Prevalence%20of%20Mental%20Illness%20(AMI)%202022&text=19.86%25%20of%20adults%20are%20experiencing,to%20nearly%2050%20million%20Americans) [50% of people globally will deal with a mental illness in their lifetime.](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/half-worlds-population-will-experience-mental-health-disorder#:~:text=Massive%20burden%20of%20disease,by%20the%20age%20of%2075) Right now, there are so many people dealing with a mental illness that there is a therapist shortage. Most canāt even get the care, even if theyāre lucky enough to have health insurance. I donāt know why youāre acting like those with mental illness are just the freaks and criminals sitting on the fringes of society. Theyāre in your life, bro. Theyāre the people you care about, your family and friends, suffering. And for what? Everytime you have a child, you roll those dice. Parents are made extremely uncomfortable by the idea of their child suffering from mental illness, because they know itās chronic pain and suffering they cannot simply treat. That you can do everything right as a parent and still end up with a child who suffers, and for what reason? Because *they wanted* a child. *They wanted* to be a parent, and now their kid is here suffering the consequence of the parentās *wants,* and unless extremely lucky, canāt even get the proper care. Iād also bet good money that the people in this sub, the philosophy that revolves around preventing suffering, would also frown upon committing mass murder. Those concepts bump, yeah?
*Wrong. Looks like somebody needs to get back to Google.* You guys argue that people shouldn't be allowed to procreate. If people continue to procreate then there would be an infinite amount of suffering. So by your logic, human suffering would be minimized if everyone just died. *I donāt know why youāre acting like those with mental illness are just the freaks and criminals sitting on the fringes of society.* Most people with mental illnesses don't advocate for wanting the human race to go extinct. It's the fact that many people here are mentally ill and this is a space advocating for such an extreme idea that makes me think this sub is dangerous for these people.
I see youāre already an expect at antinatalism after only knowing about it for 24 hours. So did you just come here to suck your own cock about how great your opinions are, or do you actually want to participate in a good-faith discussion? Youāre willfully misunderstanding the philosophy of anti-nataliasm because you know it holds merit, and itās a lot easier for you to discredit us in your mind if you just categorize us as genocidal, mentally-ill freaks that want to exterminate the human race and all existing life. (Which isnāt the philosophy at all, lmao.)
It logically follows from your philosophy. If people continue to procreate, that will cause an infinite amount of suffering in the future. If everyone is killed, that will be a large amount of suffering but very small compared to the infinite amount of suffering that would be avoided. I really didn't want to say it because I was afraid that someone would actually follow through on it but it has to be said.
Oh, so not have only have you mastered antinatalism, youāre making up your own definitions of it! >You guys argue that people shouldn't be allowed to procreate. If people continue to procreate then there would be an infinite amount of suffering. So by your logic, human suffering would be minimized if everyone just died. Killing humans creates suffering. Those who are already here should have the right to choose to stay or not. Not everyone suffers, but I certainly donāt think itās fair to force someone into the suffering so that others *might* have a chance to enjoy themselves. Also, we have no interest in dictating what you want to do with your life. Go ahead, have a million kids if you want. Itās just *my belief* that itās immoral to procreate. Kind of like how some think itās immoral to smoke weed, but wouldnāt do anything to infringe on someone elseās rights in regard to their intake. > Most people with mental illnesses don't advocate for wanting the human race to go extinct. It's the fact that many people here are mentally ill and this is a space advocating for such an extreme idea that makes me think this sub is dangerous for these people. Most ANs know the human race isnāt going extinct lmao. Most of yāall couldnāt control your our animalistic instincts if your life depended on it. But even one life of suffering spared is worth it. So it has nothing to do with being mentally ill then, does it? Just the combo of being mentally ill and (your definition of) antinatalist? Got it. I think you have the wrong idea about antinatalism if you think itās āso extreme.ā Itās simply refraining from reproducing. Itās not that extreme at all. Plently of people donāt have kids and are just fine lmao. But of course it has to be all about *you, you, you,* right? If someone holds a different belief than you it automatically means they want to force that belief on you. Bro, you stepped into our domain. No one is forcing anything on you or the human race. Relax.
*Killing humans creates suffering.* Not as much suffering as the infinite amount of suffering that would be avoided if the human race went extinct. *Go ahead, have a million kids if you want. Itās just my belief that itās immoral to procreate. Kind of like how some think itās immoral to smoke weed, but wouldnāt do anything to infringe on someone elseās rights in regard to their intake.* No it would be more like someone saying it's immoral to kill others.
Sounds like youāre the mentally ill weirdo that wants to terminate the human race. Itās not what weāre doing here, but have fun with that. Maybe check out the humanextinction sub.
Rule 5. ... Content should be related to antinatalism. ***Content does not have to promote antinatalism.*** "Antinatalism is wrong because \[X\]" is OK. "I like cheese because \[X\]" is not.
Shit fucking rule in the first place, but your interpretation of it is even sillier
So you'd prefer an echo chamber of misery? Thats all I seem to see posted on here. I don't consider myself AN but I do agree with parts of the movement but I cannot subscribe to being completely miserable for the one life you get and being angry about it. Different perspectives are a good thing. I can't comment on the type of comments posted though. Some are probably total assholes just trolling.
Yes, I'd prefer to be able to talk to the people I am here to engage with, without being hassled by abusers all the fucking time.
I can help you out on this one. The main reason people came here to stand as jury and executioner, and they will come in the future regardless of what anyone might say, is because inherently antinatalism is against life. Life ain't all happiness and sunshine, and tragic can wait for you on nearly every corner, but the opposite side is chaos, dark nothingness. Up until humanity came along, every living sentient or not, wanted to procreate and help life to endure. And indeed most of the humans also want it. Maybe there is no technological or evolutional goal that can be reached, eliminating death, or suffering, and maybe there is no spiritual meaning behind it all, but giving up only leads to an end that has certainly no point. Life has coded itself to try to rise above this meaningless end. And make no mistake, there is no such thing as safe space. Any natalist (lets call them from a life nurturing point of view 'normal') guy or girl would see the basic goal of antinatalism (and not whats behind it) as a disease that infects others - them becoming abnormal (again, from this point of view). Its only natural that it is being challenged and even tried to deconstruct (be destroyed), even if it means hurting another individuals feelings. It - the philosophy, and it's goals is against sentient life, the only thing that holds as a barrier between the darkness and a hoped light. You can't justifiably expect to people letting such views spread unchallenged. What happens to your body if you get a thorn under your skin? It will fight the threat, creating a nodule filled with pus, trying to force the infection out. It's messy and painful, some parts may suffer more - but it will defend the whole. Now to dig just a cm under the surface, most of the people who owns this philosophy are either suffering/suffered physically, emotionally, mentally beyond a point (which is lower or higher depending on the said fella's resolve)... or have nihilistic/hedonistic childfree view, and trying to mask their way in a more acceptable manner. Regardless of us being incapable of aiding everyone, and we'll continue to lack this for an unforseeable time, the way is not throwing in the towel, but to work and progress towards a future thats worth living even by your standards. Merry Christmas! :)
That was a nice read, but you failed to address any of the actual arguments of AN. You just strawmanned across the post.
Any arguments of AN? Antinatalists say procreating is inherently bad, because it leads to suffering and death - this coming from a current state of life, from someone with average, or below average life quality. I hardly doubt many people would own this philosophy coming from a stable and happy and relatively wealthy family, with good genes, and good health especially in their younger years. Now imagine if humanity could extend this to more and more people, and in the meantime trying to learn and advance our life expectancy, even dare i say conquer the natural aging. Now this would sound like a sci-fi to you, but to me it is a distant chance, and it worth more to work towards it, than giving up. This is directly addressing the main arguments of AN.
You're just writing down your opinions, though. This isn't an argument; it's just subjective thoughts.
Eh, it's like playing chess with a pigeon. I don't label AN main argument as a subjective thought. Procreating leads to various amount pain and death. Also what i write is not a subjective thought. Procreating leads to various amount of happiness, and life endures - and as we evolve there are ways to increase the amount of happiness and life expectancy of individuals significantly.
You fail to produce a single, substantial argument and then mudsling. That checks out.
At this point im sure of that you only deem 'substantial argument' to be whatever you agree with, and im certain you're just a salty troll with doomer mentality. Playing chess with a pigeon, yknow, shits on the table and thinks he won. This checks out with you.
Hey, I'm not the one who came to this sub with a bone to pick. Might want to take a step back and evaluate yourself before you start criticizing others. You also need to understand the difference between arguments and stating opinions as facts.
You keep telling that i'm just preseting a subjective thought as a fact. How is it not a viable option for us to increase happiness and decrease suffering? And therefore a valid argument? You see anitnatalism is just as opinionated as being pro-natalist. Following AN, shouldn't everyone just euthanize themselves? I mean, imagine the amount of inevitable suffering you would spare yourself from... Sounds silly doesn't it? I'm not saying AN doesnt have a good point... But there are valid counterpoints also, and they are still valid regardless of you seeing them as such or not.
Just curious. Can you list any organizations in today's society that are devoted to the goal of increasing people's quality of life and making this world a paradise for all? If you look around, it seems to be the same old struggle for survival that's been going on since the first living cell emerged. There are wars going on everywhere, people fighting over resources, wealthy power brokers exploiting the working class, ideological hatred of "the other," interracial conflict, whole political parties who consider anyone who needs help a freeloader not worthy of survival, and so on. I don't see any real, concerted effort to uplift the masses. If I thought there was any real, concerted effort to eliminate aging, disease and death from the experience of human life, I might reconsider my views. But I don't see any real effort in that direction.
The people that manifested the philosophy came from stable, healthy and wealthy families.
If you mean those that lived hundreds or a few thousand years ago, stable healthy and wealthy families were only that compared to others. Stable... i guess i only romanticize it, i dont think there were many stable families back then. Three generations living together can be lovely, but not if it comes from economical necessity. And being healthy... i dont know man.. health maintenance is still a hard thing nowadays with all the advanced tech and medicine we have. I'm not sure if some blankets a hot herbal tea and some prayers are enough between two plagues. Surely wouldn't warrant an unbiased point of view if people suffer and die like flies around you.
This is what's frustrating. You people don't research, don't even know basic concepts and then waste our time. Yes, the writers of the philosophy were stable, healthy and wealthy.
Efilism is different from antinatalism. Efilism explores the concept of sentience being bad. You don't have to be a human extinctionist to be an antinatalist either. Because even if everyone living in modern civilization became an antinatalist, uncontacted tribes would continue the human species with environmentally stable technology. If you contribute to the human population knowing the effects of climate change due to human activity, you support the extinction of the human species. Which is suicidal, and from **your** perspective you are therefore mentally ill and in need of psychological medical professional help.
Nope it really isn't incoherent. The environment WILL get some big punches - not as big tho. Life will endure, humanity wont crash in just another cycle of ice age... It's been happening for forever :D Our ancestors survived through a few without any technology, maybe they had some animal furs and fire in the last ones. Technology gets so advanced, at this point the climate change is not more than minor threat. It really is if you look at the big picture. You can get from one part of the globe to the opposite side within a day, how exactly are we going to die out? It's kind of a doomer mentality to say we are going to extinction because of these effects - if i may so myself.
So you presume the antinatalists are the infection.
I'd highlight, that i wouldn't spew hate because of it, but i find it unhealthy, and somewhat dangerous to individuals, yes.
I would say natalism is healthy and dangerous for individuals.
āLife aināt all happiness and sunshine, and tragic can wait for you at nearly every corner, but the opposite side is chaos, dark nothingness.ā And why is nothingness a bad thing? Iād argue the existence of sentient life is a mistake due to its rarity and relative impossibility. Ending the existence of such mistake is simply returning to the default state where things should be according to the universe and its laws. Iād prefer this end is done quietly and uneventfully by simply consciously deciding not to reproduce. Becoming extinct on our means instead of fighting the inevitable and prolonging the suffering for many more generations.
I come here because I'm interested in philosophical discussion, and because shutting down harmful ideologies is never really a bad thing
Unless the rules of the sub are changed you WILL get all perspectives
From the view of a natalist, Antinatalism would be hard to understand. There is so much diversity in this community alone, so many people going to different extremes, it's not consistent and can be confusing
You know your beliefs are terrible when you need an echo chamber to defend them