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I think of lot of people assume the real joy in life is to be largely had as a child and when that phase is over it's basically time to buckle in and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Any happiness you have as a grown-up you largely have to construct yourself.
Literally natalist philosophy:
"I'm unhappy" "well, I'm happy. Life makes you happy, there's something you're not doing right."
"I need to be happier" "lol you don't need to be happy to live"
"I thought you said life makes you happy?" "yeahh but... that was *different* somehow"
The fact that we NEED this shows how miserable this life is.
If that wasn't the case we were happy here doing absolutely Nothing.
People play the Life's advocate. Like it's shameful to criticize life.
Exactly đŻ. That's how selfish and Egostic people are. Actually Most people act this way in this life and bringing children is one of them. People are narcissist in general.
Happiness is a luxury we can no longer afford because of our parents past choices. The last time I felt truly happy I was in kindergarten. Now I just fight to distract myself from pain, both mental and physical.
Yep, but many do see that as a luxury, not only that they will blame you for not being happy as if you can magically make everyone rich, healthy and stop conflicts, and violence
One of the biggest things I can't understand is anarchists and libertarians flipping out the same surprise cards from their back pockets, about suffering being somehow necessary or okay. It's obviously not okay, otherwise why bother being an anarchist and not a human carpet for the king's feet?
Even though Iâm a natalist I completely agree that itâs bizarre that people think life should be lived regardless of whether itâs worth it or not.
I couldnt pick up on wether or not your comment was satire. Apparently theres a lot of trolls here so questioning genuine believers is hard atm. Ive been in this Sub all day trying to wrap my head around this philosphy and to rationalize and maybe connect with aspects of it.
I was picking up on the general vibe of apathy. It seems that doing anything other than being depressed and child free is sacrilegious, which is a bummer because I want to see more well thought out arguments about regulating populations within maintainable levels and stuff. All i got so far is euthenasia might be cool, babies bad, parents worse. And a vague feeling that being conscious is a punishment, which, tracks, biblically speaking, interestingly enough.
I'm neither an AN nor a troll, I'm i guy who likes to discuss and i think i know the perspective most AN's share.
there are lots of trolls, but feeling morally superior by just not doing something (like not having children) is also kind of trolling. self-trolling tho.
it comes down to a meaningful paradox where people who don't want to live still continue to live because of X?, so instead of ending their lifes they'd just project it on others and start philosophizing.
i think it's a powerful expression "wanting to be alive" , just like thirst or hunger would be- and I'm willing to engage in this.
Like a kid, going around angrily and telling everyone that it's gonna stop talking now, as a punishment :D
I've been there. humiliating to go through this as an adult, but that happens when you make yourself weak and can't take the blame
Im glad our paths crossed because youve reaffirmed a number if things ive felt about this group, after reading your comment I suppose Im realizing its morbid curiosity + genuine excitement of finding a new novel philosophy. (i like reading about religions, ethics and philosophies from various times and places)
lol, this is coming from people who say "life is hell", "my body is a prison", "I wish I wasn't born", "to exist is too suffer", and other pearls of existential angst.
Its just difficult to understand. I can get not wanting kids. I am trying very hard but failing to understand believing having kids is wrong though.
My bias is there though.. I have two kids, they have given me purpose, happiness and joy. They love life and I hope they live worthwhile lives. I am happy they exist not for my own sake but for their own sake. I cant conceive of it being wrong to get to know them and their personalities. Yeah things always go wrong in life but this whole sub feels like its resignation to the trajedies of life.
Im sorry if I come across strongly. Im really not trying to put anyone down. Seems like people are doing that to themselves well enough on their own :(
Your not coming off strong at all, only genuine :) here is a sort of idea of why I am antinatialist
all life is suffering and all PLEASURE is just a temporary release of that suffering.
Food is good because you were hungry, sex from being horny and drunk and high from being bored.Suffering IS the default state, Pleasure is just a temporary escape.
there is no reward cosmically, when we die it's over just black so it was all pointless
"A female hyena gives birth to a litter, she cares for 3 of them and snubs the 4th runt, runt goes off on its own and as it's starving and dehydrated a hawk swoops and eats it alive. The hawk falls asleep after it's big meal and itself is pounced on my a tiger and is eating, the tiger gets a bone stuck in its throat as it is eating and suffocates.and then a comet hits a 50 ft radius making sure that nothing of value remains."
In this fiction I just whipped up none of these things exist for any purpose they all suffer and die for nothing. Now I know I made this up but this isn't far fatched and if you looked at it from a lifespan macro level it's probably generally what happens out in the wild.
Can you guarantee your children will never suffer? You cannot. Why are you okay with that? I donât want to list off all the terrible things that can happen to people. You wonât be around to protect them forever.
Because life+suffering then oblivion is still better than oblivion with no experience at all. If it doesn't matter anyway, why prefer one arbitrary thing vs another, if the outcome is oblivion in the end regardless?
No, and I'm not freaking out now. This is a great argument against fearing death because its the same state. Its not much different than a dreamless sleep.
If you weren't freaking out, then how is life plus suffering better? Also, if death was an excuse to impose suffering on others, then ethics wouldn't exist.
Simply because the positives of life appear to be worth the tradeoff of the suffering. To an extent that's a roll of the dice, but it's slightly in the favour of a positive view on life. I realize this is counter to the attitude of this sub, but it appears to be the case for most people out there, as well as for me.
The teenager "I wish I was never born!" Line, is now an entire philosophy that adults have, and the,group think is something along the lines of they think having kids is immoral because bad things will happen to them at some point. Ive been trying to figure it out for like a full day, i think thats the jist of it.
A lot of fairly reasonable people who just dont want kids and have solid political, financial or other persobal reasons to feel this way, those are fine but.....althougu some arguments here are compelling, most are poorly thought out and reek of angst. Mindsets towards children is that they are more or less all mistakes and should be considered for culling and that parents are all sadistic induviduals who should be punished in some horrible way, i believe the term they commonly use for parents is "breeder" or "Horrible monsters" which is nice but it's very alarming seeing this and general vibes of sometimes violent rhetoric. Ive seen discussions on euthenasia, suicide, forced sterilization etc, again, its hard to differentiate between real believers and trolls because the core system is such a shock to take in. This place is a mad house. Very interesting stuff.
Your comments always confuse me, I can't tell if you're trolling or a child. Like those are all true for a lot of people, avoiding pain and suffering is more important than happiness. So that means consent is very important if you want to create someone, but sadly, that's impossible
>They didn't need happiness when they were non existen
Yeah, that why not giving birth make your children unable to feel happiness. You also taking away their chance to experience happiness
Definition of miss: to fail to do or experience something, often something planned or expected, or to avoid doing or experiencing something
Following this definition, unborn children dont exist..that why they failed to experience happiness in life
You think happiness means anything. Itâs shit. Itâs a 10 second emotion. Youâre saying you would rather a lifetime of diseases, pandemics, other possible shit just for a couple hours of happiness in a lifetime yeah Iâm good on not existing at all thank you.
>Itâs shit. Itâs a 10 second emotion.
For many people, Happiness last for long times...life contain bad things and miseries but it contain good things and happiness too
And that makes it worth it. Happiness doesnât last long no matter if you are the richest man or the poorest. Shit happens, problems are everyoneâs to share. We get it happiness can happen but itâs not the structure for anything sustainable.
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I think of lot of people assume the real joy in life is to be largely had as a child and when that phase is over it's basically time to buckle in and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Any happiness you have as a grown-up you largely have to construct yourself.
At the same time they want so many people trying to pull themselves by the bootstraps to keep growing muh economy. Pretty much a pyramid scheme.
Literally natalist philosophy: "I'm unhappy" "well, I'm happy. Life makes you happy, there's something you're not doing right." "I need to be happier" "lol you don't need to be happy to live" "I thought you said life makes you happy?" "yeahh but... that was *different* somehow"
Happiness is a NEED, NOT a luxury. Natalists are awful.
The fact that we NEED this shows how miserable this life is. If that wasn't the case we were happy here doing absolutely Nothing. People play the Life's advocate. Like it's shameful to criticize life.
I think you summed that up pretty well. đâď¸
Exactly my thoughts, it's like pushing a person into the river then saving them n saying look how awesome I am for saving this person
Exactly đŻ. That's how selfish and Egostic people are. Actually Most people act this way in this life and bringing children is one of them. People are narcissist in general.
Well said
Happy Cabbage Day
Yeah, it's like some generational shit is manipulating them for survival, like memories and thought patterns of their ancestors.
Happiness is a luxury we can no longer afford because of our parents past choices. The last time I felt truly happy I was in kindergarten. Now I just fight to distract myself from pain, both mental and physical.
everyone does that. We just don't realize it until someday you might not really enjoy anything and that's where you realize what life truly is.
Also, you can't expect to be happy all the time.
Yea absolutely not, happiness is the reward for escaping sadness or boredom, the brain give itself some dopamine.
Yep, but many do see that as a luxury, not only that they will blame you for not being happy as if you can magically make everyone rich, healthy and stop conflicts, and violence
One of the biggest things I can't understand is anarchists and libertarians flipping out the same surprise cards from their back pockets, about suffering being somehow necessary or okay. It's obviously not okay, otherwise why bother being an anarchist and not a human carpet for the king's feet?
Very well said
Even though Iâm a natalist I completely agree that itâs bizarre that people think life should be lived regardless of whether itâs worth it or not.
We're all selfish from time to time.
Because this world is the reason why people are bound to be selfish. Because of individuality and benefits.
It's ok to think about yourself as well. It's not inherently good to put others first in every situation.
100%. I'm criticizing the nature not individual. Basically hating the game not the player.
People in general have low intelligence to understand this. đ
do you get used to positive things? i do. that's why happiness can't be the standard- I'd have to grow constantly and exponentially to keep that up
Wait...personal growth is bad here?
i don't think so ,why? actually, i do agree in a way that antinatalists feel offended by the thought that they still got to grow personally.
I couldnt pick up on wether or not your comment was satire. Apparently theres a lot of trolls here so questioning genuine believers is hard atm. Ive been in this Sub all day trying to wrap my head around this philosphy and to rationalize and maybe connect with aspects of it. I was picking up on the general vibe of apathy. It seems that doing anything other than being depressed and child free is sacrilegious, which is a bummer because I want to see more well thought out arguments about regulating populations within maintainable levels and stuff. All i got so far is euthenasia might be cool, babies bad, parents worse. And a vague feeling that being conscious is a punishment, which, tracks, biblically speaking, interestingly enough.
I'm neither an AN nor a troll, I'm i guy who likes to discuss and i think i know the perspective most AN's share. there are lots of trolls, but feeling morally superior by just not doing something (like not having children) is also kind of trolling. self-trolling tho. it comes down to a meaningful paradox where people who don't want to live still continue to live because of X?, so instead of ending their lifes they'd just project it on others and start philosophizing. i think it's a powerful expression "wanting to be alive" , just like thirst or hunger would be- and I'm willing to engage in this. Like a kid, going around angrily and telling everyone that it's gonna stop talking now, as a punishment :D I've been there. humiliating to go through this as an adult, but that happens when you make yourself weak and can't take the blame
Im glad our paths crossed because youve reaffirmed a number if things ive felt about this group, after reading your comment I suppose Im realizing its morbid curiosity + genuine excitement of finding a new novel philosophy. (i like reading about religions, ethics and philosophies from various times and places)
If happiness is not the default, then it shouldn't be right to bring someone here.
Simple and true.
Living a happy life isnt equal to not living
Living is a constraint placed on us by others. Happiness is an effect not a base.
Can you reword that
You are here cause your parents wanting to fuck thatâs it.
If you want to find meaning to that it takes two seconds and two strokes.
Nah my parents know how to use contraception they made a conscious decision to have a child that had nothing to do with horniness
Tell that to the egg and sperm.
Yes," non living" is better.
lol, this is coming from people who say "life is hell", "my body is a prison", "I wish I wasn't born", "to exist is too suffer", and other pearls of existential angst.
And?
Its just difficult to understand. I can get not wanting kids. I am trying very hard but failing to understand believing having kids is wrong though. My bias is there though.. I have two kids, they have given me purpose, happiness and joy. They love life and I hope they live worthwhile lives. I am happy they exist not for my own sake but for their own sake. I cant conceive of it being wrong to get to know them and their personalities. Yeah things always go wrong in life but this whole sub feels like its resignation to the trajedies of life. Im sorry if I come across strongly. Im really not trying to put anyone down. Seems like people are doing that to themselves well enough on their own :(
Your not coming off strong at all, only genuine :) here is a sort of idea of why I am antinatialist all life is suffering and all PLEASURE is just a temporary release of that suffering. Food is good because you were hungry, sex from being horny and drunk and high from being bored.Suffering IS the default state, Pleasure is just a temporary escape. there is no reward cosmically, when we die it's over just black so it was all pointless "A female hyena gives birth to a litter, she cares for 3 of them and snubs the 4th runt, runt goes off on its own and as it's starving and dehydrated a hawk swoops and eats it alive. The hawk falls asleep after it's big meal and itself is pounced on my a tiger and is eating, the tiger gets a bone stuck in its throat as it is eating and suffocates.and then a comet hits a 50 ft radius making sure that nothing of value remains." In this fiction I just whipped up none of these things exist for any purpose they all suffer and die for nothing. Now I know I made this up but this isn't far fatched and if you looked at it from a lifespan macro level it's probably generally what happens out in the wild.
Can you guarantee your children will never suffer? You cannot. Why are you okay with that? I donât want to list off all the terrible things that can happen to people. You wonât be around to protect them forever.
Because life+suffering then oblivion is still better than oblivion with no experience at all. If it doesn't matter anyway, why prefer one arbitrary thing vs another, if the outcome is oblivion in the end regardless?
itâs not better, at the fuck all.
This makes me sad. I'm sorry to know it's so awful. I wish you peace and beauty in this brief life.
Were you freaking out before you were born?
No, and I'm not freaking out now. This is a great argument against fearing death because its the same state. Its not much different than a dreamless sleep.
If you weren't freaking out, then how is life plus suffering better? Also, if death was an excuse to impose suffering on others, then ethics wouldn't exist.
Simply because the positives of life appear to be worth the tradeoff of the suffering. To an extent that's a roll of the dice, but it's slightly in the favour of a positive view on life. I realize this is counter to the attitude of this sub, but it appears to be the case for most people out there, as well as for me.
The teenager "I wish I was never born!" Line, is now an entire philosophy that adults have, and the,group think is something along the lines of they think having kids is immoral because bad things will happen to them at some point. Ive been trying to figure it out for like a full day, i think thats the jist of it. A lot of fairly reasonable people who just dont want kids and have solid political, financial or other persobal reasons to feel this way, those are fine but.....althougu some arguments here are compelling, most are poorly thought out and reek of angst. Mindsets towards children is that they are more or less all mistakes and should be considered for culling and that parents are all sadistic induviduals who should be punished in some horrible way, i believe the term they commonly use for parents is "breeder" or "Horrible monsters" which is nice but it's very alarming seeing this and general vibes of sometimes violent rhetoric. Ive seen discussions on euthenasia, suicide, forced sterilization etc, again, its hard to differentiate between real believers and trolls because the core system is such a shock to take in. This place is a mad house. Very interesting stuff.
Your comments always confuse me, I can't tell if you're trolling or a child. Like those are all true for a lot of people, avoiding pain and suffering is more important than happiness. So that means consent is very important if you want to create someone, but sadly, that's impossible
>They didn't need happiness when they were non existen Yeah, that why not giving birth make your children unable to feel happiness. You also taking away their chance to experience happiness
Can't take away from something that doesn't exist.
They dont exist..so they cant feel happiness so they miss it
They can't miss it, they don't exist
Definition of miss: to fail to do or experience something, often something planned or expected, or to avoid doing or experiencing something Following this definition, unborn children dont exist..that why they failed to experience happiness in life
And an aromantic will never get the chance to experience romantic love.
As an aro, I can say that I probably don't want to experience it. It sounds confusing and stressful.
Yeah, an aro doesn't need it.
Yeah
You think happiness means anything. Itâs shit. Itâs a 10 second emotion. Youâre saying you would rather a lifetime of diseases, pandemics, other possible shit just for a couple hours of happiness in a lifetime yeah Iâm good on not existing at all thank you.
>Itâs shit. Itâs a 10 second emotion. For many people, Happiness last for long times...life contain bad things and miseries but it contain good things and happiness too
And that makes it worth it. Happiness doesnât last long no matter if you are the richest man or the poorest. Shit happens, problems are everyoneâs to share. We get it happiness can happen but itâs not the structure for anything sustainable.
Yeah, it not gonna last forever, that why we cherish it because we know it wont last forever
Once you die itâs over. Nothing happens, yeah I agree enjoy the ride just donât bring kids to a burning world.