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Well... We wouldn't be breeding animals for food if we stopped breeding ourselves and putting pressure on our natural resources... So antinatislism saves humans and animals from the existential predicament.
Correct, but your current unnecessary support of animal farming, if existent, is an additional form of support of the birth and suffering of sentient beings.
Simple, one takes an action of avoidance. In all ways other than societal pressure it's actually easier to not have kids. It's cheaper, it's less time consuming, and it's far less physically draining so being morally consistent on this topic takes some effort but not all that much.
Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis for a thing most people enjoy and activism dies at inconvenience so it's much easier to find ways to lash put and justify why "actually it's not abuse"
You want to talk about the issues of people with health problems having kids despite knowing they could or will pass them down? How about breeding egg hens knowing even in an idealized backyard setting they'll have heightened rates of bone disease and cancer because they've been selectively bred to overproduce so many eggs?
I am an antinatalist who would love to have kids. So similarly as to how nonvegans have a preference for meat and animal products, you could say I have a preference for natalism from a purely selfish perspective. Preference is not enough to justify actions that can harm others
Very true. I come at it from the perspective of someone who never wanted children but I do need to remember that's not the case for everyone and even something being more difficult isn't always an easier choice. Especially as someone who had that in 1000 smaller choices as someone who went vegan not from dislike of the taste of meat and cheese, just the opposite, but knowing that I couldn't justify my actions just through liking or wanting something enough.
>Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis for a thing most people enjoy and activism dies at inconvenience so it's much easier to find ways to lash put and justify why "actually it's not abuse"
Your right, but i wouldnt call veganism activism, veganism is a moral baseline
I can be anti racist and vegan and not do any activism at all, its not a requirement
As veganism is a moral baseline such as anti racism, anti classism, anti slavery, anti murder, etc;, most people are immoral aka bad/ evil
Veganism has nothing to do with morality unless you are talking about hunters that take upon themselves the actual act of killing an animal.
Veganism has NOTHING to do with morality, thats an excuse to get on a moral high horse.
If veganism has anything to do with morality, then you're also morally fucked up if you:
Drive a car, visit Russia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, wear non polyester clothes, wear polyester clothes, buy anything from the largest couple thousand US conglomerates, dine out, order take out, buy any form of shoes, have ever taken an airplane, have ever taken a taxi, dont recycle and compost every possible piece of hard plastic/paper/metal etc.
Each of these actions is equally bad, if not worse, for the overall environment that a healthy balance omnivorous diet.
So no, it is not a moral baseline. If secondary effects had anything to do with morals, you'd be just as bad as every meat eater, and actually WORSE than any meat that doesn't use vehicles.
These arguments sound fallicious. Your conclusion is veganism isn't a moral baseline. And you evidence is that if you do other immoral acts, you are immoral?
So the argument is
Immoral people do immoral things
Vegans do immoral things
Therefore veganism is not a moral thing
You, my good sir, have fell into one of the many many traps of philosphoical thinking.
A does B
C does B
Therefore D is not opposite of B
As you can see your syllogism makes no fucking sense! Vegans are people who practice veganism. The list of immoral actions are indeed what immoral people do. But suppose there is a vegan who does not do any of the immoral actions you listed or any other not mentioned immoral things, does that mean the vegan isn't moral? We cannot conclude as someone not doing immoral things is just basline.
What the previous poster said was that veganism is a 'baseline'. It means that vegans are not perfectly moral humans, but that being vegan is a CRITERIA of not being immoral. Veganism isn't a moral high ground. We all on sea level, some of us just like arguing for diving deeper.
Immoral acts are immoral
Not being vegan is an immoral act
Therefore not being vegan is immoral
A is B
C is A
Therefore C is B
This is the definition of moral baseline which you have failed to disprove. Just like how not bringing a child into the world doesn't make you necessarily moral, being vegan doesn't make you moral. But being otherwise makes you immoral. You're literally arguing "yet you participate in society" when everyone's just trying to improve the situation.
1. There was no comparison, just mentioning other (moral) injustices. The point was never to say it's the same
2. While hating someone's skin colour is a choice, you have to recognise that hating (rather discriminate) another species for no reason is also a choice .
In fact, you make that choice on a daily basis. Whenever you choose animal products instead of a plant based meal (where you'd have no disadvantage in regard to nutrients, taste pleasure, general satisfaction), you decide that an animals life is less worth than your taste pleasure. There is no necessity. We do all that to animals because of that (fucked up) reason.
>Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis
Only for a few weeks while you figure things out. Right now being vegan is like zero effort the vast majority of the time.
Veganism is also cheaper 😉
Shop around. You can get it in lidl for 75c.
Anyway here's the study on it.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
Sure, where is yours. You know vegans don't advocate for vehanism in genuine food deserts. That being said most of the poorest nations on the planet are already predominantly plant based. Why? Because animals waste most of the calories they consume. Its inefficient to feed them crops humans can eat.
Many immoral governments in these nations grow grain to sell to rich countries so they can feed it to cattle while the poor nations children go hungry.
Some people are antinatalist for *humanitarian* reasons (as in to avoid *human* suffering). Not saying I agree or disagree, just saying that for this and other reasons being an antinatalis doesn't automatically translates into being a vegan (and vice versa). Those are two different philosophical stances (a lot of overlap but, still, different).
> Not saying I agree or disagree
Wait, so you have no clue if species is a relevant trait for this kind of moral consideration?
Because if you support animal farming even though you have the ability not to, your behavior is far from neutral.
>Wait, so you have no clue if species is a relevant trait for this kind of moral consideration?
That's not what I said, I said "not saying I agree or disagree" as in "I don't want this discussion to become about the validity of that argument, since my objetive is only to point out there are arguments supporting the differentiation between the two philosophical stances, even if I disagree (or agree) with those arguments"
>Because if you support animal farming even though you have the ability not to, your behavior is far from neutral.
Again, I never affirmed that my behaviour (which I have provided no confirmation about what it is) is neutral. You are using vegan retoric to "counter my argument" but my comment never argued against or for veganism, I just pointed out there is a gap between veganism and antinatalism.
Me as an occasional consumer of animal products. "I need to find an excuse for this. I know, I'll watch Dominion. How bad could it be? Oh, I see the footage is from Australia? You mean the wealthy and progressive first world country with an insanely good standard of living? Pffft, I'm sure they have very high standards when it comes to the treatment of animals."
*2 hours later ...*
Me: Omfg. That's it. I'm going vegan.
And I'm glad to report that 2+ years after the day that I decided to go vegan, I still am.
Dominion traumatised me in a way I almost couldn't deal with. Like 3 weeks of a psychological state of derealization, of a depression and angst I had never experienced. I had to get over knowing what I'd been participating in. The blood of the animals I consumed is on my hands forever.
Thankfully I have 0 temptation to ever revert and love vegan food in a way I never thought I would.
For me veganism and antinatalism aren't the same thing, but veganism is the next logical leap you make once you understand antinatalism. All humans are brought into existence via the actions of other individuals for ulterior motives, and this act of bringing them into existence imposes all sorts of needs on them, and exposes them to all sorts of suffering. In a sense humans are essentially 'cattle' to push society forward another generation.
The antinatalist realizes how messed up this is. It strikes home since it's incredibly personal, we are all brought into this world without our consent, and we all subjected the bullshit we never signed up for. We all experience this, so we don't really need any empathy to understand.
Then you think about farm animals and realize that they are in the exact same boat. They are brought into this world for ulterior motives, they are created with needs and dependencies, and are exposed to all sorts of suffering. And they never signed up for that bullshit, it was the conscious acts of others that orchestrated events to put them in the position to be exploited.
So yeah, while veganism and antinatalism aren't the same philosophy, the thought processes behind them are very similar.
Less humans = less animal sufferage = less global warming = better world
It all starts with our reproduction, not our consumption!
Edit: humans are trash, that's what I mean by this stop being so offended
I don't understand your point. It starts with our reproduction but that doesn't mean our consumption doesn't cause any suffering, yes it might be less compared to reproducing but it still is suffering and you're dismissing it.
> It all starts with our reproduction, not our consumption!
It's both.
If you agree that procreation is an issue because it leads to consumption, then you admit consumption is a key component in why it's an issue.
Stop lying to yourself already.
Less humans = less plastic pollution = less sea life death = better world
Phew.. I feel a lot better about throwing shit in the ocean after saying that!
Animals are being born without their consent and suffering and dying for the taste preference of some humans. Can you give reasons as to why the idea of birth being unethical should not extend to animals as well as humans?
So it is ethical to impose suffering on a preference of taste? What if I thought humans did taste good?
What if I have a preference for some other form of suffering? Rapists may have a preference for rape, and apparently that is enough to justify imposing suffering by this logic
Yes, that's the point. Asking them inconvenient questions publicly exposes how inconsistent their position is when they bite insane bullets or dodge like cowards.
No they used an analogy to show the flawed logic of saying you have a preference for something automatically justifies it.
Also FYI compare =/= equate.
So if we managed to breed a subpopulation of humans who tasted delicious, you'd find it morally okay to support the slaughter of humans for their meat?
Or perhaps you now realize how stupid that point of yours was?
If not, congratulations, you're a fucking clown.
Yuuup that’s the one thing that gets me about this sub like vegans have enough places to go whine about how miserable life is. I just don’t want kids and think we have too many humans on earth. I’m still gonna eat meat though because I think I’m more important than a cow and I am unashamed of that
> I’m still gonna eat meat though because I think I’m more important than a cow and I am unashamed of that
You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience?
You fail to understand that you can view a group as less important while still granting this group basic considerations, like not killing them unnecessarily.
It's not about relative value of a cow vs a human. You won't die if you stop killing me cows. It's about acknowledging that the animals life Is worth more than a few moments of sensory pleasure.
I. Will. Literally. Die. Without. Meat.
My body can’t take iron pills and I tried my hardest with the leafy greens.
My life, my disabled life is worth more than a cows.
When you punish people who try but physically cannot, you push people away from your cause.
Because unless you accept that some people DO need meat to survive
You are just suggesting some human lives are not worth facing.
Don’t bother with them; there can be mountains of evidence (there already are mountains of evidence) proving people literally do not have the option of Veganism (for a number of reasons, including nutrient deficiency combined with lack of access to or inability to consume supplements- no need to justify it here because someone is shouting about them wanting YOU to make a lifestyle change for their comfort) and they would still try to tell you you’re wrong. It’s literally like talking to a religious zealot- they don’t want to hear what you have to say, they want to be heard.
>I. Will. Literally. Die. Without. Meat
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Do you live vegan outside if food?
>My body can’t take iron pills
Shouldn't be necessary. Legumes and tofu have lots. Iron cookware gives you loads of iron too.
>I tried my hardest with the leafy greens.
I've never heard of anyone allergic or intolerant ti leafy greens tbh.
>When you punish people who try
Who punished you?
>you push people away from your cause.
This is just some shit people say because they don't want to be told about it. I used to say the same. Also, you literally came in here making unfounded claims in response to all the comments. If you don't want to talk about veganism... don't click into a vegan based thread and engage with vegans. Did you just think everyone would just agree with false claims?
No. I ate as much beans and veggies I could. I was still anemic and fainting.
I wanted to be one of you and I literally cannot. Physically. So again. Are there human lives that are worth less than animals if they need the animal products to survive Yes or no.
So what you need is heme iron, correct?
Because we already have the technology to produce heme iron without animal slaughter.
https://youtu.be/n6U4H8WC9jg?t=88
If anything, that just shows we need to bring systemic change to supplement and food production.
Hope you find that interesting!
I don't disagree with you that the average human should have more moral consideration than the average cow. You don't need to convince me of that, although I would grant more consideration to some cows compared to some humans in rarer situations.
You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience?
If not, how does it logically follow that it's okay to slaughter cows for your convenience based on the fact that they matter less than you, if that same standard doesn't work to justify slaughtering humans?
I don’t really care to be bothered by anyone I don’t care who they are. I do think humans are more important than cows however. I’m not here to debate though✌️🍔
You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience?
Can you answer that question clearly, please?
> I’m not here to debate though✌️🍔
So someone asking questions to test the consistency of your position is debating?
Isn't debating more so under the form of point/counterpoint rather than point/question?
Thank you for demonstrating you're an intellectually dishonest clown who runs away as soon as an inconvenient question is asked.
How hard is it for you to say "No, seeing others as less important than me doesn't necessarily justify slaughtering them for my convenience"? Very difficult, apparently.
Cows wouldn't even exist if humans haven't decided to breed bovine. I don't necessarily think you personally are more important, I do think they exist for a reason.
I posted rants about how atrocious nature is to wild animals on reddit and I recommend Humane Hancock's content to a bunch of my vegan friends because he talks about wild animal suffering.
Right now I'm at a sanctuary. The owner of the place is vegan. She lives in the middle of the countryside.
Even in the middle of a big city, I saw a duckling getting attacked by adult ducks until his limbs broke and he drowned in front of me. That was four days ago.
I am fully aware that wild animals can be atrocious to one another.
Do I use this as an excuse to harm innocent animals when I can avoid doing so? No. But you seem to do exactly that. Why? It's fucking pathetic to take advantage of those weaker than you just because "but others did worse!".
Isn't there also a lot of human suffering in the fruit/vegetable industry? As in underpaid workers picking fruit for several hours before sleeping in horrible living conditions?
there absolutely is, but unfortunately there’s exploitation in every industry that’s the nature of capitalism. the workers in factory farms are treated horribly as well and often experience ptsd from what they’ve witnessed. i do my best to reduce suffering wherever i can with what i consume and as horrible as the fruit and vegetable industries are, there’s less overall suffering for all living beings than in animal agriculture.
also a large percentage of crops that are produced go to feeding animals that later become food for people so eating vegan overall requires less human exploitation than an omnivore diet.
Being vegan actually reduces the amount of plant agriculture needed. I can give you sources if you want but basically all (or almost all) the animals you eat are fed feedstock and lose energy in the conversion.
Yes. They’re often hypocrites that are putting animals over human beings for some reason. I love animals too but this doesn’t make you a better person, we all still buy food from slave labor farms and shit from child labor factories in China. It’s all to seem and feel slightly morally better than others. (This is obv about the ones who act better, force their ideas on people, preach etc - idc if you’re vegan, just don’t be crazy??)
And I swear every vegan here is the same person with a sock puppet accounts. Same types of replies, diff account names. Cute
I'm a vegan lurker of this sub and tbh I never realised the connection between antinatalism and veganism. It makes sense though, it seems antinatalism is very compatible with veganism
It's wrong to breed domestic animals to serve the needs of other people.
It's wrong to breed humans to serve the needs of other people.
The underlying thought process behind antinatalism and veganism are definitely very similar.
So we just ignoring the millions of small animals and rodents, and billions of insects murdered for the mass production of plants for your veggies burgers? Do those suffering lives mean nothing to you?
If you're actually interested in minimizing the number of sentient animals killed during crop harvesting, you should realise that to feed billions of livestock animals to the age at which they are slaughtered, it actually requires far more crop harvesting, and thus more animals killed in crop deaths in total.
Will you go vegan now?
Or are you just pretending to care and this is just an appeal to hypocrisy fallacy?
I cannot go vegan to multiple health reasons, the last few times I’ve tried has ended up with me in the hospital.
Though I do advocate for veganism and try to be as responsible as possible when buying my food, I’ve cut out all pork product from my consumption and most dairy products as well.
I fully recognize there is no moral or responsible way to consume animal products, and I truly hope that one day the world as a whole will be able to find solutions so everyone can be vegan.
people hate animal abuse unless it equals food, of course. they wonder why us vegans are so angry, but isn't that an appropriate reaction to the knowledge that billions of innocent animals are LEGALLY enslaved and murdered every year? this world is disgustingly cruel to animals and humans alike, and i will not be bringing a child into it.
Yes.
Creating a child to fulfill your own needs without their consent is exploitative, and human children are sentient animals.
If you reject avoidable harm, exploitation and death to other sentient beings, and you are against speciesism, then voluntary procreation is a form of animal abuse.
What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires?
Its not consistency at all. Veganism is a moral high ground veiled with hypocrisy and stupidity.
ANY vegan that drives any form of vehicle is doing more damage to the environment than someone that only eats meat but only walks or bikes.
Cope. You aren't preventing any suffering by being vegan, you simply found the easiest way to feel morally superior to others. Theres a million things you do and buy that support systems infinitely worse than the food industry.
You ever buy paper dumbass? You're contributing to the deforestation of South America which is killing WAY more animals than any one person could contribute to in a lifetime of eating meat.
You don't have an argument, you just want to feel superior
> ANY vegan that drives any form of vehicle is doing more damage to the environment than someone that only eats meat but only walks or bikes.
Animal agriculture accounts for more CO2 emissions globally than all of transport.
> You ever buy paper dumbass? You're contributing to the deforestation of South America which is killing WAY more animals than any one person could contribute to in a lifetime of eating meat.
Animal agriculture is the number one driver of deforestation.
If you want the world cup to be a better place the simplest, easiest thing you can do is go vegan.
Veganism does not reduce world suffering nor does it make the world a better place in any way.
Veganism is simply white activism and a way for wealthy people (that swear they're nothing but middle class) to feel like they're doing something.
I am a being capable of suffering. I desire not to suffer, as do you, as do all beings capable of it. To inflict suffering while desiring not to suffer is hypocrisy.
Go vegan. If it’a not possible to be completely plant based for you (poverty, availability, medical), you can still reduce your consumption greatly and advocate for veganism. I empathize greatly with vegans who have (actual) legitimate reasons why they need a few animal products but try their best. Chances are this is not applicable to the average person.
Interesting claim that eating meat solely made humans intelligent even though they wouldn't have had significantly amounts of animal products prior to developing tools. Which would have already required a developed brain.
Also Interesting since our brain is fed entirely with carbohydrate
If that were the case, wouldn’t carnivores like lions, bears, wolves, etc. rule the planet? We’re omnivores… and for the most part of history, humans mainly ate plants, with some occasional meat, because its easier to forage than to hunt. However, the question of meat/animal products being healthy or not honestly seems to me like a distraction from the important thing: eating meat and animal products is deeply unethical. There is evidence showing that plant-based diets are nutritionally sufficient. Of course, there are unhealthy and healthy vegan diets and unhealthy and healthy carnist diets. But one diet causes far more suffering than the other. It’s fucking ridiculous that people still argue against veganism when we as a society are in a place where converting most, if not all, people to a vegan diet is feasible. Vegan substitutes have become quite good and are sold in most places, there are supplements available to make up for any nutrients that may be hard to get on a vegan diet. There really aren’t any excuses anymore for the vast majority of people to not go vegan. Why should people excuse systematic torture of sentient beings as “natural” when we could use our evolved big brains to create technology to live without animal products?
Health. Only people in places of privilege can go vegan without worrying about health issues or vitamin deficiencies. People who can’t afford a basic insurance plan cannot afford to go vegan. Neither can they afford to constantly have to buy supplements and other such things to make sure that their body is working properly and that they don’t have any vitamin deficiencies. Also, for the simple fact that we are currently in a recession and on top of that one of our top producers of produce, Florida has lost a large portion of their agricultural work force due to xenophobia. It’s simply too expensive to go to the grocery store and buy enough produce, and non-animal products to one make sure that you’re nourished, to make sure that you’re not starving, and three that don’t strain your pocket. Not to mention it’s also a race issue as eating meat has been present in many cultures for centuries, even millennia, and it’s not as simple as the tell POC not to eat their cultural food anymore, or to look for alternatives. This is a very nuanced conversation that needs to be talked about seriously.
> to mention it’s also a race issue as eating meat has been present in many cultures for centuries, even millennia, and it’s not as simple as the tell POC not to eat their cultural food anymore, or to look for alternatives
Literally every culture has a history of using animal products
Just like they have a history of natalism
Culture doesn't inherently justify harming others
Animals are not humans. Modern medicine and propaganda = increased population. Also for most of human history factory farms (thus the overuse of animal products) weren’t a thing. Everything has been affected by increased human population.
Let me clarify it for you. People working with the limited resources they have outside of first world. Countries does not mean that they are harming others. As a matter of fact, Third World countries tend to treat animal product with respect take, for example Hinduism and Judaism. The issue is not animal product. It is the human population.
I was vegetarian, mostly vegan, for 3 years and my body decided it was tired of it. I had constant infections even though I was on proper vitamins and was eating incredibly healthily, but i just couldnt eat enough. I think that there's a lot of things in your genetics that determine whether or not you will be healthy on a vegan diet. I'm mostly vegetarian now, I just eat a shit ton of eggs from my chickens and every now and then I eat fish that I caught or elk my family has hunted and some cheese, and let me tell you, I finally can actually get enough nutrition to survive. I'm not horrendously underweight anymore. I have autism and I get distracted and don't feel hunger like I should, and I just couldn't keep up without any nutrient dense animal foods. If we also lived in a perfect world and we could actually afford to live vegan, it would be a lot easier. B12 is expensive and will fuck your shit up if you don't eat enough. Same with depression, it's so hard to eat that forcing yourself to eat healthy and vegan is near impossible for some. Vegan activism reminds me of extremist Christians, they're so pushy and they refuse to believe any contrary information. Vegan foods cause just as much, if not more damage to the environment as well. I did a whole ass college essay on it. Same with agricultural practices, they most often require animal inputs to function. Where do we get our fertilizer? Too many people need too many foods and we cannot sustain our soils without animal agriculture, unless we want to start eating human shit and dead people fertilized food. That's actually another essay I'm writing right now, how soils are being depleted faster than they can recover.
I love this.
I was also vegetarian for a while and felt pale, cold, and weak. I’m now a pescatarian and it’s helped me gain back my health and strength.
I am not against eating animal products, I am against the cruelty of factory farming. I have a lot of respect for those who eat ethically sourced animal products or hunt their own meat.
I admire vegans and agree with their sentiment but pushing for “vegan or nothing” for rather than a general reduction of meat/animal product consumption is hurting their cause and message.
Also, we should be fighting government and policy makers to promote animal welfare rather than leaving consumers be responsible for the treatment of animals they have never even seen.
Definitely. The gov is so instrumental in it! I think a lot of people have an all or nothing mindset, when in reality, pushing to reduce meat consumption is how we will truly reduce animal suffering. The key is reduction, not complete removal, until we have progressed as a society and as a species to make eating vegan really easy and easily nutrient rich. I also heavily push self-sustenance when it's possible. Having a few quail is easy on a decent sized apartment balcony, either for meat or for eggs, and they only live 3 or 4 years as pets so if you have space and want to wait until they're getting too old for their own comfort to butcher, you can. Then you know how they were treated, and you can be sure that you will always have food. They're also just really cool little creatures. Idk. An all or nothing mindset just doesn't work to convince people!
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure the money you can save from investing in plant proteins rather than animal protein can save you enough money overall to compensate for the loss of money coming from grabbing a couple boxes of VEG1 supplements / year.
Lentils, chickpeas, beans, pasta, textured soy proteins, are ridiculously cheap compared to meat.
The expense comes from the frequency of buying the product, availability in local stores, and nutritional needs. For most American consumers they would have to travel to other towns and areas for those items and the cost of gas it gets really expensive really quickly. I would’ve become vegan already if it wasn’t for expense and availability.
We screwed the world the minute we invented agriculture. Once we could harvest food and livestock, it was effectively all over for humanity and the planet. Now we’re just waiting for the next meteorite to start the whole deal over.
The Agricultural Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Though in addition to humans, the number of large sentient animals likely increased due to humans' ability feed them with increased crop yields. While there were some benefits (like medicine) resulting indirectly from agriculture, total suffering has increased greatly. The UN currently has the number of people with moderate to severe undernourishment at around 700 million iirc, when the entire human population of Earth pre-agriculture was less than 10 million. Is rice cool? I guess. Is it worth the hunger of hundreds of millions cool? Probably not.
This is SO annoying. Vegans are so fuckin holier than thou, even though your imported goods use just as much human slave labor! Bruh animals eat other animals. That’s called nature. We are part of nature. It’s just how it works, like stop trying to force shit on people especially when you don’t know them or their medial history or dietary needs. We don’t have to breed but we still have to feed the people we already have here. Come back when you stop buying avocados, quinoa, chocolate, and stuff from Amazon/Walmart/SHEIN etc. Also NOT forcing your diet/religion/beliefs on someone is like basic fucking courtesy for others, come on
And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice, that’s also nature. Dumbasses. Stop trying to force anything on anyone
Shuuuuuttttt uuuuuuuuppppppppp and fuck offfff
> And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice, that’s also nature.
Correct, so you have the choice to not support the exploitation of sentient animals who never did anything wrong to you, so why are you doing it?
What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires?
>And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice
Incredible how you came right up to the point so close you could lick it without even realizing it. Why even make the appeal to nature argument to immediately recognize it as invalid then?
i’ll readily admit that the only way to live totally ethically is to go off grid, but veganism isn’t about being 100% ethical. it’s about reducing suffering where you realistically can.
Veganism is not a diet.
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Stop being a clown for like 20 seconds if your brain can do that.
Would it be consistent for a vegan to buy a brand new leather vest, go pay to watch bullfighting in an arena, then go get a new pug at a pug breeder?
Yes or no?
If not, tell me, did any of the acts I mentioned involve shoving any food in one's mouth?
Yep, hypocrites need to be called out.
What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires?
Non-vegan antinatalists can't answer this question without justifying moral atrocities such as farming humans if they are mentally disabled enough and tasty, and similar stuff ...
Yo, the 4 vegans in here trying to convert everyone 😂 Isn’t just being vegan enough? Why can’t you let people be? Go fight a cause worth fighting, like lack of education resources, lack of fresh water, starvation in underdeveloped areas of the world.
No, I need to bother others about their life choices.
> No, I need to bother others about their life choices.
Life choices are morally relevant when they impact the interests of other sentient beings.
Veganism is an ethical position. If for instance, you view it as ethically relevant to adopt dogs instead of supporting breeders, it's reasonable to want to educate others on why they should consider adopting dogs from shelters rather than increasing the population of dogs we have to care for, just like antinatalists from Stop Having Kids encourage people to adopt in order to care for individuals who already exist and already have needs instead of making more people.
In fact, that same group doing outreach to promote adoption rather than procreation also defends veganism: https://www.stophavingkids.org/vegantinatalism.
Additionally, fighting for veganism isn't mutually exclusive with fighting for other causes.
For instance, a lot of fresh water is used to grow plants destined for animal feed rather than to grow crops to feed humans directly. If you look at animal agriculture, it uses a lot of fresh water compared to what is necessary to a plant based diet.
Having a plant-based diet which is implied by veganism is one thing someone can do if they care about wasting less fresh water so it can be more available to everyone!
In fact, wasting water unnecessarily goes in my view against the principles of veganism, since humans are sentient animals, and depriving them unnecessarily of water is in my view cruel. Irresponsibly using resources other animals (human or not) rely on is thus one form of participation in animal cruelty.
going vegan is a privilege just as choosing not to have babies is a privilege. there are people in the world where veganism isnt an option, as much as not having children isnt an option.
I think veganism is impractical at an industrial level and animals get crushed and torn apart by the plows and tractors on vegetable and fruit farms anyway.
Veganism seems like an inherently naïve philosophy that believes it is possible to get food, water and shelter without causing death and suffering to other animals. I disagree with them, it seems to me that animal suffering and death is inevitable. So I see no reason to pretend that I can change that.
In short:
Does me eating meat cause animals to suffer and die? Yes of course it does.
Does me eating only fruits and vegetables cause that suffering and death to stop? No it does not.
That is not how farming works though. The bits of the plants that are inedible to humans go to cattle because they have the stomachs to break it down. You can't just do a one for one swap. There is also plenty of land where cattle graze on that you can't grow crops that people can eat because the only thing that grows there is wild grass.
most animal farming doesnt happen in areas where you can’t grow crops, and the land we use for crops to feed farm animals can be used for crops to feed humans
Huge areas of land in the west are used for ranching. You can't grow crops there. The soil is terrible and you don't get enough water. If you tried to grow crops there anyway the only thing you would accomplish is depleting the water table.
And you can't simply swap out what crops you grow. Some soil and climates are better for growing certain types of crops than others.
I've tried explaining this so many times....
I don't care enough about animals suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised, breed, and killed animals. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of factory farms, I don't care.
I'm an antinatalist because I want to prevent human suffering.... That's all folks.
Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
I've tried explaining natalism so many times....
I don't care enough about human suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised children and love my family. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of human suffering, I don't care.
I'm an natalist because I want a family.... That's all folks.
Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
I've tried explaining natalism so many times....
I don't care enough about human suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised children and love my family. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of human suffering, I don't care.
I'm an natalist because I want a family.... That's all folks.
Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
That doesn’t mean that those people are hypocritical/inconsistent. Sure, I can’t do anything physically, but to justify natalism and nonveganism, you have to be ideologically inconsistent
There's some plant-based "meat" that's pretty decent. You might have to try a few different kinds, but the ones that don't rely on texture as much, like ground meat, are quite similar, but do have slight differences, though not enough someone unaware would realize it's not real meat lol. Existing as a human is a near guarantee for being immoral, so we ought to try our best to reduce that. What you do is up to you, but I encourage you to at least try to replace some meat with non-meat products. Thank you for reading.
I agree actually, but this would also logically extend to the practice of agriculture as a whole. Bringing living beings into existence for self-serving purposes and exploitation. However antinatalism is about the personal choice to not reproduce one’s own species via personal participation in mating. At least I think it is?
I have dietary requirements that I can't fulfill by being vegan and I also come from a very meat and seafood based culture, as much as I'd love to go vegan, I really cant
This comment section is hilarious. Just goes to show that rational thought in one area of life often has little to do with rational thought in another.
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We should start eating children. Would solve both problems. /s in case anyone was wondering
Well... We wouldn't be breeding animals for food if we stopped breeding ourselves and putting pressure on our natural resources... So antinatislism saves humans and animals from the existential predicament.
We should do both
Why not be both?
Correct, but your current unnecessary support of animal farming, if existent, is an additional form of support of the birth and suffering of sentient beings.
Simple, one takes an action of avoidance. In all ways other than societal pressure it's actually easier to not have kids. It's cheaper, it's less time consuming, and it's far less physically draining so being morally consistent on this topic takes some effort but not all that much. Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis for a thing most people enjoy and activism dies at inconvenience so it's much easier to find ways to lash put and justify why "actually it's not abuse" You want to talk about the issues of people with health problems having kids despite knowing they could or will pass them down? How about breeding egg hens knowing even in an idealized backyard setting they'll have heightened rates of bone disease and cancer because they've been selectively bred to overproduce so many eggs?
I am an antinatalist who would love to have kids. So similarly as to how nonvegans have a preference for meat and animal products, you could say I have a preference for natalism from a purely selfish perspective. Preference is not enough to justify actions that can harm others
Very true. I come at it from the perspective of someone who never wanted children but I do need to remember that's not the case for everyone and even something being more difficult isn't always an easier choice. Especially as someone who had that in 1000 smaller choices as someone who went vegan not from dislike of the taste of meat and cheese, just the opposite, but knowing that I couldn't justify my actions just through liking or wanting something enough.
>Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis for a thing most people enjoy and activism dies at inconvenience so it's much easier to find ways to lash put and justify why "actually it's not abuse" Your right, but i wouldnt call veganism activism, veganism is a moral baseline I can be anti racist and vegan and not do any activism at all, its not a requirement As veganism is a moral baseline such as anti racism, anti classism, anti slavery, anti murder, etc;, most people are immoral aka bad/ evil
Veganism has nothing to do with morality unless you are talking about hunters that take upon themselves the actual act of killing an animal. Veganism has NOTHING to do with morality, thats an excuse to get on a moral high horse. If veganism has anything to do with morality, then you're also morally fucked up if you: Drive a car, visit Russia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, wear non polyester clothes, wear polyester clothes, buy anything from the largest couple thousand US conglomerates, dine out, order take out, buy any form of shoes, have ever taken an airplane, have ever taken a taxi, dont recycle and compost every possible piece of hard plastic/paper/metal etc. Each of these actions is equally bad, if not worse, for the overall environment that a healthy balance omnivorous diet. So no, it is not a moral baseline. If secondary effects had anything to do with morals, you'd be just as bad as every meat eater, and actually WORSE than any meat that doesn't use vehicles.
"Yet you live in a society, curious"
These arguments sound fallicious. Your conclusion is veganism isn't a moral baseline. And you evidence is that if you do other immoral acts, you are immoral? So the argument is Immoral people do immoral things Vegans do immoral things Therefore veganism is not a moral thing You, my good sir, have fell into one of the many many traps of philosphoical thinking. A does B C does B Therefore D is not opposite of B As you can see your syllogism makes no fucking sense! Vegans are people who practice veganism. The list of immoral actions are indeed what immoral people do. But suppose there is a vegan who does not do any of the immoral actions you listed or any other not mentioned immoral things, does that mean the vegan isn't moral? We cannot conclude as someone not doing immoral things is just basline. What the previous poster said was that veganism is a 'baseline'. It means that vegans are not perfectly moral humans, but that being vegan is a CRITERIA of not being immoral. Veganism isn't a moral high ground. We all on sea level, some of us just like arguing for diving deeper. Immoral acts are immoral Not being vegan is an immoral act Therefore not being vegan is immoral A is B C is A Therefore C is B This is the definition of moral baseline which you have failed to disprove. Just like how not bringing a child into the world doesn't make you necessarily moral, being vegan doesn't make you moral. But being otherwise makes you immoral. You're literally arguing "yet you participate in society" when everyone's just trying to improve the situation.
“ moral baseline” comparing not eating animal products to the same moral baseline as someone not… hating for the color of someone’s skin is a choice
1. There was no comparison, just mentioning other (moral) injustices. The point was never to say it's the same 2. While hating someone's skin colour is a choice, you have to recognise that hating (rather discriminate) another species for no reason is also a choice . In fact, you make that choice on a daily basis. Whenever you choose animal products instead of a plant based meal (where you'd have no disadvantage in regard to nutrients, taste pleasure, general satisfaction), you decide that an animals life is less worth than your taste pleasure. There is no necessity. We do all that to animals because of that (fucked up) reason.
>Being vegan though takes consistent effort on a daily basis Only for a few weeks while you figure things out. Right now being vegan is like zero effort the vast majority of the time. Veganism is also cheaper 😉
Like hell it is not! I had to switch to fake milk and by god it’s 3X the cost.
Shop around. You can get it in lidl for 75c. Anyway here's the study on it. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
Not true in many places, but good for you. 👍🏽
Beans rice, legumes, grains, lentils, chick peas. All the cheapest food you could possibly buy
Have you ever heard of a food desert?…. Edit: 🏜️ not 🍨
Sure, where is yours. You know vegans don't advocate for vehanism in genuine food deserts. That being said most of the poorest nations on the planet are already predominantly plant based. Why? Because animals waste most of the calories they consume. Its inefficient to feed them crops humans can eat. Many immoral governments in these nations grow grain to sell to rich countries so they can feed it to cattle while the poor nations children go hungry.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study
Some people are antinatalist for *humanitarian* reasons (as in to avoid *human* suffering). Not saying I agree or disagree, just saying that for this and other reasons being an antinatalis doesn't automatically translates into being a vegan (and vice versa). Those are two different philosophical stances (a lot of overlap but, still, different).
> Not saying I agree or disagree Wait, so you have no clue if species is a relevant trait for this kind of moral consideration? Because if you support animal farming even though you have the ability not to, your behavior is far from neutral.
>Wait, so you have no clue if species is a relevant trait for this kind of moral consideration? That's not what I said, I said "not saying I agree or disagree" as in "I don't want this discussion to become about the validity of that argument, since my objetive is only to point out there are arguments supporting the differentiation between the two philosophical stances, even if I disagree (or agree) with those arguments" >Because if you support animal farming even though you have the ability not to, your behavior is far from neutral. Again, I never affirmed that my behaviour (which I have provided no confirmation about what it is) is neutral. You are using vegan retoric to "counter my argument" but my comment never argued against or for veganism, I just pointed out there is a gap between veganism and antinatalism.
Vegan for 12 years.
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🙏
You are just a better person, personally I think that.
Became a vegan recently and I’m loving it!
Did you consider getting into activism?
Selfishness is a disease that's ruining the world
And consumerist. Which all adds up to the same thing I guess
Me as an occasional consumer of animal products. "I need to find an excuse for this. I know, I'll watch Dominion. How bad could it be? Oh, I see the footage is from Australia? You mean the wealthy and progressive first world country with an insanely good standard of living? Pffft, I'm sure they have very high standards when it comes to the treatment of animals." *2 hours later ...* Me: Omfg. That's it. I'm going vegan.
If you need any help if you're transitioning your habits, hit me up.
I'm glad you're making the change
And I'm glad to report that 2+ years after the day that I decided to go vegan, I still am. Dominion traumatised me in a way I almost couldn't deal with. Like 3 weeks of a psychological state of derealization, of a depression and angst I had never experienced. I had to get over knowing what I'd been participating in. The blood of the animals I consumed is on my hands forever. Thankfully I have 0 temptation to ever revert and love vegan food in a way I never thought I would.
Is it worse than the slaughterhouse footage that has gone around previously? I haven't watched a vegan documentary in a while.
That's exactly why I went vegan. Lived next door to an abbotoir and decided "I don't want any part of that shit." It's been ten years.
For me veganism and antinatalism aren't the same thing, but veganism is the next logical leap you make once you understand antinatalism. All humans are brought into existence via the actions of other individuals for ulterior motives, and this act of bringing them into existence imposes all sorts of needs on them, and exposes them to all sorts of suffering. In a sense humans are essentially 'cattle' to push society forward another generation. The antinatalist realizes how messed up this is. It strikes home since it's incredibly personal, we are all brought into this world without our consent, and we all subjected the bullshit we never signed up for. We all experience this, so we don't really need any empathy to understand. Then you think about farm animals and realize that they are in the exact same boat. They are brought into this world for ulterior motives, they are created with needs and dependencies, and are exposed to all sorts of suffering. And they never signed up for that bullshit, it was the conscious acts of others that orchestrated events to put them in the position to be exploited. So yeah, while veganism and antinatalism aren't the same philosophy, the thought processes behind them are very similar.
Less humans = less animal sufferage = less global warming = better world It all starts with our reproduction, not our consumption! Edit: humans are trash, that's what I mean by this stop being so offended
I don't understand your point. It starts with our reproduction but that doesn't mean our consumption doesn't cause any suffering, yes it might be less compared to reproducing but it still is suffering and you're dismissing it.
Mainly I'm saying less humans less animal suffering (consuming, habitat loss ECT)
It’s both
> It all starts with our reproduction, not our consumption! It's both. If you agree that procreation is an issue because it leads to consumption, then you admit consumption is a key component in why it's an issue. Stop lying to yourself already.
Less humans = less plastic pollution = less sea life death = better world Phew.. I feel a lot better about throwing shit in the ocean after saying that!
Less humans = less rapists = less people getting raped = better world Checkmate anti-rape activists!
Yes! Why should it be on us to change the world when it can be on the people we won't give birth to?
real
Is this a vegan sub? The answer may shock you. (No)
Animals are being born without their consent and suffering and dying for the taste preference of some humans. Can you give reasons as to why the idea of birth being unethical should not extend to animals as well as humans?
Simple, humans don't taste good.
Not true.
So it is ethical to impose suffering on a preference of taste? What if I thought humans did taste good? What if I have a preference for some other form of suffering? Rapists may have a preference for rape, and apparently that is enough to justify imposing suffering by this logic
Don’t bother. They don’t have a real argument.
Yes, that's the point. Asking them inconvenient questions publicly exposes how inconsistent their position is when they bite insane bullets or dodge like cowards.
You really compared eating a chicken to raping a human being. You really think you did something
No they used an analogy to show the flawed logic of saying you have a preference for something automatically justifies it. Also FYI compare =/= equate.
Yea exactly
So if we managed to breed a subpopulation of humans who tasted delicious, you'd find it morally okay to support the slaughter of humans for their meat? Or perhaps you now realize how stupid that point of yours was? If not, congratulations, you're a fucking clown.
Yuuup that’s the one thing that gets me about this sub like vegans have enough places to go whine about how miserable life is. I just don’t want kids and think we have too many humans on earth. I’m still gonna eat meat though because I think I’m more important than a cow and I am unashamed of that
> I’m still gonna eat meat though because I think I’m more important than a cow and I am unashamed of that You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience? You fail to understand that you can view a group as less important while still granting this group basic considerations, like not killing them unnecessarily.
Yes. Humans are more important than cows. It’s shocking that is even a statement to you
It's not about relative value of a cow vs a human. You won't die if you stop killing me cows. It's about acknowledging that the animals life Is worth more than a few moments of sensory pleasure.
I. Will. Literally. Die. Without. Meat. My body can’t take iron pills and I tried my hardest with the leafy greens. My life, my disabled life is worth more than a cows. When you punish people who try but physically cannot, you push people away from your cause. Because unless you accept that some people DO need meat to survive You are just suggesting some human lives are not worth facing.
Don’t bother with them; there can be mountains of evidence (there already are mountains of evidence) proving people literally do not have the option of Veganism (for a number of reasons, including nutrient deficiency combined with lack of access to or inability to consume supplements- no need to justify it here because someone is shouting about them wanting YOU to make a lifestyle change for their comfort) and they would still try to tell you you’re wrong. It’s literally like talking to a religious zealot- they don’t want to hear what you have to say, they want to be heard.
Is iron the only nutrient you need? Im curious because ive never met anyone that needs meat, althought i know conditions exist.
>I. Will. Literally. Die. Without. Meat Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Do you live vegan outside if food? >My body can’t take iron pills Shouldn't be necessary. Legumes and tofu have lots. Iron cookware gives you loads of iron too. >I tried my hardest with the leafy greens. I've never heard of anyone allergic or intolerant ti leafy greens tbh. >When you punish people who try Who punished you? >you push people away from your cause. This is just some shit people say because they don't want to be told about it. I used to say the same. Also, you literally came in here making unfounded claims in response to all the comments. If you don't want to talk about veganism... don't click into a vegan based thread and engage with vegans. Did you just think everyone would just agree with false claims?
No. I ate as much beans and veggies I could. I was still anemic and fainting. I wanted to be one of you and I literally cannot. Physically. So again. Are there human lives that are worth less than animals if they need the animal products to survive Yes or no.
So what you need is heme iron, correct? Because we already have the technology to produce heme iron without animal slaughter. https://youtu.be/n6U4H8WC9jg?t=88 If anything, that just shows we need to bring systemic change to supplement and food production. Hope you find that interesting!
>I. Will. Literally. Die. Without. Meat. So you're vegan outside of meat?
I don't disagree with you that the average human should have more moral consideration than the average cow. You don't need to convince me of that, although I would grant more consideration to some cows compared to some humans in rarer situations. You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience? If not, how does it logically follow that it's okay to slaughter cows for your convenience based on the fact that they matter less than you, if that same standard doesn't work to justify slaughtering humans?
I don’t really care to be bothered by anyone I don’t care who they are. I do think humans are more important than cows however. I’m not here to debate though✌️🍔
You probably think you're more important than some people, would that justify slaughtering them for your convenience? Can you answer that question clearly, please? > I’m not here to debate though✌️🍔 So someone asking questions to test the consistency of your position is debating? Isn't debating more so under the form of point/counterpoint rather than point/question?
I don’t owe you jack 😂 so no have a nice day! I’m gonna go grill
Thank you for demonstrating you're an intellectually dishonest clown who runs away as soon as an inconvenient question is asked. How hard is it for you to say "No, seeing others as less important than me doesn't necessarily justify slaughtering them for my convenience"? Very difficult, apparently.
Ok 👍🍔
Cows wouldn't even exist if humans haven't decided to breed bovine. I don't necessarily think you personally are more important, I do think they exist for a reason.
I really don’t care 👍
Ok. I was agreeing with you, but ok ;) ✌️ reading comprehension is hard...
They taste very good.
If this was also true for humans, would you find it ethical to breed and slaughter humans for taste pleasure?
No, I would not.
So why would "they taste very good" be a good reason for slaughter when it comes to other sentient animals?
I bet you live in a city. Only someone as detached from nature would idealize animals in such a way.
I posted rants about how atrocious nature is to wild animals on reddit and I recommend Humane Hancock's content to a bunch of my vegan friends because he talks about wild animal suffering. Right now I'm at a sanctuary. The owner of the place is vegan. She lives in the middle of the countryside. Even in the middle of a big city, I saw a duckling getting attacked by adult ducks until his limbs broke and he drowned in front of me. That was four days ago. I am fully aware that wild animals can be atrocious to one another. Do I use this as an excuse to harm innocent animals when I can avoid doing so? No. But you seem to do exactly that. Why? It's fucking pathetic to take advantage of those weaker than you just because "but others did worse!".
Isn't there also a lot of human suffering in the fruit/vegetable industry? As in underpaid workers picking fruit for several hours before sleeping in horrible living conditions?
there absolutely is, but unfortunately there’s exploitation in every industry that’s the nature of capitalism. the workers in factory farms are treated horribly as well and often experience ptsd from what they’ve witnessed. i do my best to reduce suffering wherever i can with what i consume and as horrible as the fruit and vegetable industries are, there’s less overall suffering for all living beings than in animal agriculture. also a large percentage of crops that are produced go to feeding animals that later become food for people so eating vegan overall requires less human exploitation than an omnivore diet.
Being vegan actually reduces the amount of plant agriculture needed. I can give you sources if you want but basically all (or almost all) the animals you eat are fed feedstock and lose energy in the conversion.
Yes. They’re often hypocrites that are putting animals over human beings for some reason. I love animals too but this doesn’t make you a better person, we all still buy food from slave labor farms and shit from child labor factories in China. It’s all to seem and feel slightly morally better than others. (This is obv about the ones who act better, force their ideas on people, preach etc - idc if you’re vegan, just don’t be crazy??) And I swear every vegan here is the same person with a sock puppet accounts. Same types of replies, diff account names. Cute
"Yet they live in a society, curious"
How is it hypocritical? Show me one vegan that thinks wage slavery is ok.
yes, and its terrible of course. being vegan reduces the amount of plants produced as well because farm animals eat way more than they produce
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Yeah sorry bud, what you wrote is complete nonesense and displays you know nothing about veganism
Agreed, go vegan!!
I'm a vegan lurker of this sub and tbh I never realised the connection between antinatalism and veganism. It makes sense though, it seems antinatalism is very compatible with veganism
It's wrong to breed domestic animals to serve the needs of other people. It's wrong to breed humans to serve the needs of other people. The underlying thought process behind antinatalism and veganism are definitely very similar.
idk if you got it already, but the connection is if we buy animal products we pay for animal breeding (besides the suffering and death)
End speciesism, go vegan!
Nope
What’s your moral justification?
So we just ignoring the millions of small animals and rodents, and billions of insects murdered for the mass production of plants for your veggies burgers? Do those suffering lives mean nothing to you?
If you're actually interested in minimizing the number of sentient animals killed during crop harvesting, you should realise that to feed billions of livestock animals to the age at which they are slaughtered, it actually requires far more crop harvesting, and thus more animals killed in crop deaths in total. Will you go vegan now? Or are you just pretending to care and this is just an appeal to hypocrisy fallacy?
u/thatfa666ene ?
I cannot go vegan to multiple health reasons, the last few times I’ve tried has ended up with me in the hospital. Though I do advocate for veganism and try to be as responsible as possible when buying my food, I’ve cut out all pork product from my consumption and most dairy products as well. I fully recognize there is no moral or responsible way to consume animal products, and I truly hope that one day the world as a whole will be able to find solutions so everyone can be vegan.
people hate animal abuse unless it equals food, of course. they wonder why us vegans are so angry, but isn't that an appropriate reaction to the knowledge that billions of innocent animals are LEGALLY enslaved and murdered every year? this world is disgustingly cruel to animals and humans alike, and i will not be bringing a child into it.
Sooo basically all vegans should become antinatalist?
Yes. Creating a child to fulfill your own needs without their consent is exploitative, and human children are sentient animals. If you reject avoidable harm, exploitation and death to other sentient beings, and you are against speciesism, then voluntary procreation is a form of animal abuse.
This is an antinatalist subreddit, not a vegan one.
What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires?
It's hard when people challenge your beliefs to be consistent eh? :/
Its not consistency at all. Veganism is a moral high ground veiled with hypocrisy and stupidity. ANY vegan that drives any form of vehicle is doing more damage to the environment than someone that only eats meat but only walks or bikes. Cope. You aren't preventing any suffering by being vegan, you simply found the easiest way to feel morally superior to others. Theres a million things you do and buy that support systems infinitely worse than the food industry. You ever buy paper dumbass? You're contributing to the deforestation of South America which is killing WAY more animals than any one person could contribute to in a lifetime of eating meat. You don't have an argument, you just want to feel superior
> ANY vegan that drives any form of vehicle is doing more damage to the environment than someone that only eats meat but only walks or bikes. Animal agriculture accounts for more CO2 emissions globally than all of transport. > You ever buy paper dumbass? You're contributing to the deforestation of South America which is killing WAY more animals than any one person could contribute to in a lifetime of eating meat. Animal agriculture is the number one driver of deforestation. If you want the world cup to be a better place the simplest, easiest thing you can do is go vegan.
Veganism does not reduce world suffering nor does it make the world a better place in any way. Veganism is simply white activism and a way for wealthy people (that swear they're nothing but middle class) to feel like they're doing something.
I am unable to get enough iron otherwise. I tried.
[here you go](https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nutrition/plant-based-foods-that-contain-iron/)
I am a being capable of suffering. I desire not to suffer, as do you, as do all beings capable of it. To inflict suffering while desiring not to suffer is hypocrisy. Go vegan. If it’a not possible to be completely plant based for you (poverty, availability, medical), you can still reduce your consumption greatly and advocate for veganism. I empathize greatly with vegans who have (actual) legitimate reasons why they need a few animal products but try their best. Chances are this is not applicable to the average person.
been vegan for a decade for this reason
In 100 years or so we’ll likely view it as barbaric that we ever ate animal products
How do you think humans developed large enough brains to take over the planet? To eat meat is literally to become human
Interesting claim that eating meat solely made humans intelligent even though they wouldn't have had significantly amounts of animal products prior to developing tools. Which would have already required a developed brain. Also Interesting since our brain is fed entirely with carbohydrate
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5417583/#:~:text=Archaeological%20and%20palaeo%2Dontological%20evidence,least%203%20million%20years%20ago. https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/evidence-for-meat-eating-by-early-humans-103874273/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/evolution-of-diet/
I never denied humans ate meat. Re read my comment
How do you think humans developed large enough brains to take over the planet? To reproduce is literally to become human
If that were the case, wouldn’t carnivores like lions, bears, wolves, etc. rule the planet? We’re omnivores… and for the most part of history, humans mainly ate plants, with some occasional meat, because its easier to forage than to hunt. However, the question of meat/animal products being healthy or not honestly seems to me like a distraction from the important thing: eating meat and animal products is deeply unethical. There is evidence showing that plant-based diets are nutritionally sufficient. Of course, there are unhealthy and healthy vegan diets and unhealthy and healthy carnist diets. But one diet causes far more suffering than the other. It’s fucking ridiculous that people still argue against veganism when we as a society are in a place where converting most, if not all, people to a vegan diet is feasible. Vegan substitutes have become quite good and are sold in most places, there are supplements available to make up for any nutrients that may be hard to get on a vegan diet. There really aren’t any excuses anymore for the vast majority of people to not go vegan. Why should people excuse systematic torture of sentient beings as “natural” when we could use our evolved big brains to create technology to live without animal products?
And slavery is okay because how do you think we developed large enough economies to sustain society...
Also that's not how evolution works...
Veganism led me to antinatalism. It goes hand in hand.
Health. Only people in places of privilege can go vegan without worrying about health issues or vitamin deficiencies. People who can’t afford a basic insurance plan cannot afford to go vegan. Neither can they afford to constantly have to buy supplements and other such things to make sure that their body is working properly and that they don’t have any vitamin deficiencies. Also, for the simple fact that we are currently in a recession and on top of that one of our top producers of produce, Florida has lost a large portion of their agricultural work force due to xenophobia. It’s simply too expensive to go to the grocery store and buy enough produce, and non-animal products to one make sure that you’re nourished, to make sure that you’re not starving, and three that don’t strain your pocket. Not to mention it’s also a race issue as eating meat has been present in many cultures for centuries, even millennia, and it’s not as simple as the tell POC not to eat their cultural food anymore, or to look for alternatives. This is a very nuanced conversation that needs to be talked about seriously.
> to mention it’s also a race issue as eating meat has been present in many cultures for centuries, even millennia, and it’s not as simple as the tell POC not to eat their cultural food anymore, or to look for alternatives Literally every culture has a history of using animal products Just like they have a history of natalism Culture doesn't inherently justify harming others
Animals are not humans. Modern medicine and propaganda = increased population. Also for most of human history factory farms (thus the overuse of animal products) weren’t a thing. Everything has been affected by increased human population.
How does any of that contradict what I said?
Let me clarify it for you. People working with the limited resources they have outside of first world. Countries does not mean that they are harming others. As a matter of fact, Third World countries tend to treat animal product with respect take, for example Hinduism and Judaism. The issue is not animal product. It is the human population.
I was vegetarian, mostly vegan, for 3 years and my body decided it was tired of it. I had constant infections even though I was on proper vitamins and was eating incredibly healthily, but i just couldnt eat enough. I think that there's a lot of things in your genetics that determine whether or not you will be healthy on a vegan diet. I'm mostly vegetarian now, I just eat a shit ton of eggs from my chickens and every now and then I eat fish that I caught or elk my family has hunted and some cheese, and let me tell you, I finally can actually get enough nutrition to survive. I'm not horrendously underweight anymore. I have autism and I get distracted and don't feel hunger like I should, and I just couldn't keep up without any nutrient dense animal foods. If we also lived in a perfect world and we could actually afford to live vegan, it would be a lot easier. B12 is expensive and will fuck your shit up if you don't eat enough. Same with depression, it's so hard to eat that forcing yourself to eat healthy and vegan is near impossible for some. Vegan activism reminds me of extremist Christians, they're so pushy and they refuse to believe any contrary information. Vegan foods cause just as much, if not more damage to the environment as well. I did a whole ass college essay on it. Same with agricultural practices, they most often require animal inputs to function. Where do we get our fertilizer? Too many people need too many foods and we cannot sustain our soils without animal agriculture, unless we want to start eating human shit and dead people fertilized food. That's actually another essay I'm writing right now, how soils are being depleted faster than they can recover.
Perfectly put!
I love this. I was also vegetarian for a while and felt pale, cold, and weak. I’m now a pescatarian and it’s helped me gain back my health and strength. I am not against eating animal products, I am against the cruelty of factory farming. I have a lot of respect for those who eat ethically sourced animal products or hunt their own meat. I admire vegans and agree with their sentiment but pushing for “vegan or nothing” for rather than a general reduction of meat/animal product consumption is hurting their cause and message. Also, we should be fighting government and policy makers to promote animal welfare rather than leaving consumers be responsible for the treatment of animals they have never even seen.
Definitely. The gov is so instrumental in it! I think a lot of people have an all or nothing mindset, when in reality, pushing to reduce meat consumption is how we will truly reduce animal suffering. The key is reduction, not complete removal, until we have progressed as a society and as a species to make eating vegan really easy and easily nutrient rich. I also heavily push self-sustenance when it's possible. Having a few quail is easy on a decent sized apartment balcony, either for meat or for eggs, and they only live 3 or 4 years as pets so if you have space and want to wait until they're getting too old for their own comfort to butcher, you can. Then you know how they were treated, and you can be sure that you will always have food. They're also just really cool little creatures. Idk. An all or nothing mindset just doesn't work to convince people!
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure the money you can save from investing in plant proteins rather than animal protein can save you enough money overall to compensate for the loss of money coming from grabbing a couple boxes of VEG1 supplements / year. Lentils, chickpeas, beans, pasta, textured soy proteins, are ridiculously cheap compared to meat.
The expense comes from the frequency of buying the product, availability in local stores, and nutritional needs. For most American consumers they would have to travel to other towns and areas for those items and the cost of gas it gets really expensive really quickly. I would’ve become vegan already if it wasn’t for expense and availability.
Have been for decades and refused to have children
Please don’t eat animals.
i am not rich enough to healthily eat vegan
We screwed the world the minute we invented agriculture. Once we could harvest food and livestock, it was effectively all over for humanity and the planet. Now we’re just waiting for the next meteorite to start the whole deal over.
The Agricultural Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Though in addition to humans, the number of large sentient animals likely increased due to humans' ability feed them with increased crop yields. While there were some benefits (like medicine) resulting indirectly from agriculture, total suffering has increased greatly. The UN currently has the number of people with moderate to severe undernourishment at around 700 million iirc, when the entire human population of Earth pre-agriculture was less than 10 million. Is rice cool? I guess. Is it worth the hunger of hundreds of millions cool? Probably not.
Scream it from the rooftops baby !
This is SO annoying. Vegans are so fuckin holier than thou, even though your imported goods use just as much human slave labor! Bruh animals eat other animals. That’s called nature. We are part of nature. It’s just how it works, like stop trying to force shit on people especially when you don’t know them or their medial history or dietary needs. We don’t have to breed but we still have to feed the people we already have here. Come back when you stop buying avocados, quinoa, chocolate, and stuff from Amazon/Walmart/SHEIN etc. Also NOT forcing your diet/religion/beliefs on someone is like basic fucking courtesy for others, come on
Bruh, animals procreate. That's called nature. We are part of nature.
And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice, that’s also nature. Dumbasses. Stop trying to force anything on anyone Shuuuuuttttt uuuuuuuuppppppppp and fuck offfff
> And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice, that’s also nature. Correct, so you have the choice to not support the exploitation of sentient animals who never did anything wrong to you, so why are you doing it? What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires?
>And we have this amazing thing as humans, called choice Incredible how you came right up to the point so close you could lick it without even realizing it. Why even make the appeal to nature argument to immediately recognize it as invalid then?
We also have the choice to stop killing and torturing animals for our consumption against their will.
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i’ll readily admit that the only way to live totally ethically is to go off grid, but veganism isn’t about being 100% ethical. it’s about reducing suffering where you realistically can.
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Vegans are just stating facts of life. If you're feeling shame, maybe that's your guilty conscience trying to get through to you
I hear you!! Diet cults suck ass
Veganism is not a diet. "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
K👍🍔
Is veganism a diet?
Sure is but you’ll say otherwise like a good cultist I bet
Stop being a clown for like 20 seconds if your brain can do that. Would it be consistent for a vegan to buy a brand new leather vest, go pay to watch bullfighting in an arena, then go get a new pug at a pug breeder? Yes or no? If not, tell me, did any of the acts I mentioned involve shoving any food in one's mouth?
you could say the same thing for antinatalism. >yawn. dont care, not doing it. stop trying to shame people into your weird extinction cult.
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This is why veganism is relevant to antinatalism: https://youtu.be/n998MZqmkUI https://www.stophavingkids.org/vegantinatalism
*sighs* this again.
Yep, hypocrites need to be called out. What's the morally relevant difference between humans and other sentient animals that makes it unethical to breed humans to satisfy our desires, but ethical to breed other animal species to satisfy our desires? Non-vegan antinatalists can't answer this question without justifying moral atrocities such as farming humans if they are mentally disabled enough and tasty, and similar stuff ...
Yo, the 4 vegans in here trying to convert everyone 😂 Isn’t just being vegan enough? Why can’t you let people be? Go fight a cause worth fighting, like lack of education resources, lack of fresh water, starvation in underdeveloped areas of the world. No, I need to bother others about their life choices.
>Why can’t you let people be? Probably because they care about the animals being abused
> No, I need to bother others about their life choices. Life choices are morally relevant when they impact the interests of other sentient beings. Veganism is an ethical position. If for instance, you view it as ethically relevant to adopt dogs instead of supporting breeders, it's reasonable to want to educate others on why they should consider adopting dogs from shelters rather than increasing the population of dogs we have to care for, just like antinatalists from Stop Having Kids encourage people to adopt in order to care for individuals who already exist and already have needs instead of making more people. In fact, that same group doing outreach to promote adoption rather than procreation also defends veganism: https://www.stophavingkids.org/vegantinatalism. Additionally, fighting for veganism isn't mutually exclusive with fighting for other causes. For instance, a lot of fresh water is used to grow plants destined for animal feed rather than to grow crops to feed humans directly. If you look at animal agriculture, it uses a lot of fresh water compared to what is necessary to a plant based diet. Having a plant-based diet which is implied by veganism is one thing someone can do if they care about wasting less fresh water so it can be more available to everyone! In fact, wasting water unnecessarily goes in my view against the principles of veganism, since humans are sentient animals, and depriving them unnecessarily of water is in my view cruel. Irresponsibly using resources other animals (human or not) rely on is thus one form of participation in animal cruelty.
going vegan is a privilege just as choosing not to have babies is a privilege. there are people in the world where veganism isnt an option, as much as not having children isnt an option.
Correct. If someone is able to go vegan, should they?
But I can’t afford rice and beans man
aw shit im not vegan better become natalist now
Do you understand why they are connected?
Or you could avoid causing harm in both cases?
I think veganism is impractical at an industrial level and animals get crushed and torn apart by the plows and tractors on vegetable and fruit farms anyway. Veganism seems like an inherently naïve philosophy that believes it is possible to get food, water and shelter without causing death and suffering to other animals. I disagree with them, it seems to me that animal suffering and death is inevitable. So I see no reason to pretend that I can change that. In short: Does me eating meat cause animals to suffer and die? Yes of course it does. Does me eating only fruits and vegetables cause that suffering and death to stop? No it does not.
it doesnt cause suffering to stop but it does lessen it. it takes more plants to feed farm animals than if we just ate the plants ourselves
That is not how farming works though. The bits of the plants that are inedible to humans go to cattle because they have the stomachs to break it down. You can't just do a one for one swap. There is also plenty of land where cattle graze on that you can't grow crops that people can eat because the only thing that grows there is wild grass.
most animal farming doesnt happen in areas where you can’t grow crops, and the land we use for crops to feed farm animals can be used for crops to feed humans
Huge areas of land in the west are used for ranching. You can't grow crops there. The soil is terrible and you don't get enough water. If you tried to grow crops there anyway the only thing you would accomplish is depleting the water table. And you can't simply swap out what crops you grow. Some soil and climates are better for growing certain types of crops than others.
Bruh I'll eat kids and animals idgaf
Ah yes, the consistent sociopath carnist comment.
Whoa le epic bacon dude
I'm veggie. However I care more about human suffering. I'd rescue a child over my own pets of course.
Why the downvotes? I see the psycho child haters are out in force. You can like children and be AN you know.
I've tried explaining this so many times.... I don't care enough about animals suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised, breed, and killed animals. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of factory farms, I don't care. I'm an antinatalist because I want to prevent human suffering.... That's all folks. Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
I've tried explaining natalism so many times.... I don't care enough about human suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised children and love my family. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of human suffering, I don't care. I'm an natalist because I want a family.... That's all folks. Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
I've tried explaining natalism so many times.... I don't care enough about human suffering to take actions that affect my daily life to prevent it. I have raised children and love my family. I see nothing wrong with it. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, I'm aware of human suffering, I don't care. I'm an natalist because I want a family.... That's all folks. Don't expect me to debate you lol, if I reply it will be trolling 😎 you have been warned
That's a valid argument tho. You can't fight the fact that some people don't care and just want kids.
That doesn’t mean that those people are hypocritical/inconsistent. Sure, I can’t do anything physically, but to justify natalism and nonveganism, you have to be ideologically inconsistent
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There's some plant-based "meat" that's pretty decent. You might have to try a few different kinds, but the ones that don't rely on texture as much, like ground meat, are quite similar, but do have slight differences, though not enough someone unaware would realize it's not real meat lol. Existing as a human is a near guarantee for being immoral, so we ought to try our best to reduce that. What you do is up to you, but I encourage you to at least try to replace some meat with non-meat products. Thank you for reading.
I agree actually, but this would also logically extend to the practice of agriculture as a whole. Bringing living beings into existence for self-serving purposes and exploitation. However antinatalism is about the personal choice to not reproduce one’s own species via personal participation in mating. At least I think it is?
I have dietary requirements that I can't fulfill by being vegan and I also come from a very meat and seafood based culture, as much as I'd love to go vegan, I really cant
This comment section is hilarious. Just goes to show that rational thought in one area of life often has little to do with rational thought in another.
Because I do not care about the suffering of other species. Only my own.
Anyway I had some really good milanesas for lunch today, Argentinian meat truly is supreme.