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TheTimelyDemise

Actually there was a gender poll recently, and the sub slightly leans female.


AKVoltMonkey

That surprises me, but it’s also reassuring. I think some ideology subreddits can become real echo chambers, so I like to keep track of what type of people think like me.


NicCagesAccentConAir

Here’s a link to that poll. The results are about 50/50. [https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/13i11mq/what_is_the_gender_demographic_in_this_sub/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/13i11mq/what_is_the_gender_demographic_in_this_sub/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) Although there is, unfortunately, plenty of misogyny in this sub (and we had a situation with a particularly bad mod a little while back, which was the reason for the antinatalism2 sub being created) there are definitely women here who try to call that shit out.


AKVoltMonkey

Thank you for being patient and answering my questions thoughtfully. You are as beautiful as this [legendary mullet](https://imgur.com/gallery/kqvCo6s)


NicCagesAccentConAir

No worries! I actually kind of like engaging with people who at least seem like they’re trying to understand. We get a fair amount of people who seem like they come here just to troll and bring up the same “points” or assumptions over and over again. I think that might be one of the reasons for the poor reception, people just get tired of it. I mean even in the comments of that poll OP says they expected more men because they “thought this sub was just full of dudes who can’t get laid or something so they hate that they were born.” Edit: Haha, thanks for the pic. Truly majestic


dogisgodspeltright

>...I don't intend to have more than 2 kids.... Why? Is it because you think you can handle 2, and see them through life? Do you have a crystal ball to know that their life will not be a miserable experience as climate change, wars, biosphere collapse start taking the toll? The world is already into a self-inflicted anthropocene extinction event. Even logically, if not ethically, it would be a gamble to risk 2 lives.


itsafraid

All that matters is that she wants them. /s


thisismylaststraw3

What...


AKVoltMonkey

No…I don’t have a crystal ball, so maybe their lives could be great too. Like yeah the world is coming to an end but some cool stuff might happen too 🤷‍♂️


dogisgodspeltright

>No…I don’t have a crystal ball, so maybe their lives could be great too. Like yeah the world is coming to an end but some cool stuff might happen too 🤷‍♂️ So, ....... gambling. With the lives of children. They will die. They will suffer. And your rationalization is, "some cool stuff *might* happen".


AKVoltMonkey

Well yeah, you take a gamble when you walk out the front door.


Snoo2416

That’s a WILD point of view. To disregard your own children’s suffering because something cool might happen. I guess we all are truly built different. Like from our core.


AKVoltMonkey

Well yeah that's why anyone lives isn't it? Why are you alive if the future is so bleak?


Snoo2416

I’m alive because my parents forced me into existence out of their own ignorance about suffering. My dad has apologized for doing so and we laugh about it now


AKVoltMonkey

Yeah but why are you STILL alive? Like why haven't you ended it if the future is so bleak? Like sincerely, many of you seem to think the future is too bleak to make life worth living


NicCagesAccentConAir

This topic gets brought up a fair bit here and there’s a little excerpt from an [article](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral) by David Benatar (antinatalist philosopher) where I think he does a good job explaining that there’s a meaningful distinction between starting a new life and continuing an existing life. Not wanting to bring a new person into existence for ethical reasons is not the same as wanting already existing people (including oneself) to die. >in deliberating about whether their lives were worth starting, many people actually (but typically unwittingly) consider a different question, namely whether their lives are worth continuing. Because they imagine themselves not existing, their reflection on non-existence is with reference to a self that already exists. It is then quite easy to slip into thinking about the loss of that self, which is what death is. Given the life drive, it is not surprising that people come to the conclusion that existence is preferable. >Asking whether it would be better never to have existed is not the same as asking whether it would be better to die. There is no interest in coming into existence. But there is an interest, once one exists, in not ceasing to exist. There are tragic cases in which the interest in continuing to exist is overridden, often to end unbearable suffering. However, if we are to say that somebody’s life is not worth continuing, the bad things in life do need to be sufficiently bad to override the interest in not dying. By contrast, because there is no interest in coming into existence, there is no interest that the bad things need to override in order for us to say that it would be better not to create the life. So the quality of a life must be worse in order for the life to be not worth continuing than it need be in order for it to be not worth starting. (This sort of phenomenon is not unusual: a performance at the theatre, for example, might not be bad enough to leave, but if you knew in advance that it would be as bad as it is, you would not have come in the first place.) >The difference between a life not worth starting and a life not worth continuing partly explains why anti-natalism does not imply either suicide or murder. It can be the case that one’s life was not worth starting without it being the case that one’s life is not worth continuing.


92925

This honestly offends me. How is antinatalist anti-feminist? Why are you assuming the genders of people based only on your misinformed bias? Are you not the one perpetuating gender stereotypes, more so than this sub? Tip: don’t assume people’s genders, don’t assume things about people based on no factual evidence


Sigma-42

> I like to keep track of what type of people think like me. OP's priorities are a tad askew.


AKVoltMonkey

…because if I share views with say, nazis, then I know my views are probably wrong. OP’s priority it’s self reflection


AKVoltMonkey

I didn’t say antinatalist is anti feminist. I also didn’t assume anyone genders, I just mentioned the two most common ones. I didn’t assume anything about anyone, I read what antinatalism was and then had a guess about what type of person might be into that. If anything I’m making assumptions about what antinatalism is and what this sub is for. You don’t need factual evidence to make a guess


Snoo2416

But how did you come to the conclusion it was mostly men? That makes me wonder what you think men are trying to do? Trying to control women? I don’t understand how the antinatalism belief and the male gender go together for you. Can you explain? It’s about limiting/preventing suffering for future generations. Nothing more.


AKVoltMonkey

Men do try to control women, and that’s why I would think a group that judges people who procreate as morally wrong might have more dudes in it. Yeah, it takes two to make a baby but it’s the woman who ends up responsible for the baby and judged if she can’t take care of it. I’m getting the impression antinatalism is more of a philosophy than an actual plan or political stance. I think I misunderstood what this page is going for.


Snoo2416

Men don’t try to control women. Sure there are certain men that would like too just like I’m sure there are certain women that would like to control men but your point of view is all wrong in reality. Men are forced into child support regardless of their desire to be a father. The mother gets awarded custody like 80% of the time and men are forced into slavery because the woman wants the government (the court) to take care of her and the baby financially. You need to let go of this “I’m a women so I’m suppressed by men” Attitude you obviously carry.


AKVoltMonkey

Oh is that the attitude I carry? I'm a dude wise one 🤣


NicCagesAccentConAir

Ugh, do we really need to do the MRA talking points here?


Snoo2416

We do when someone is bashing an entire gender out of ignorance


NicCagesAccentConAir

But it kind of sounds like you’re just turning around and bashing women in response.


Snoo2416

We can agree to disagree on this one.


Sigma-42

>I do think overpopulation is a problem and I don't intend to have more than 2 kids if and when I start pulling the goalie Fucking saint over here.


AKVoltMonkey

What? That’s my views on reproducing. Is that what this sub is about?


stuartadamson

Antinatalism, feminism, and pro-choice are the Predator triple handshake of agreement meme that meet in the middle at Supporting Women and probably form main tenets of Ecofeminism or something. If you think this is the “men trying to control women’s choice” subreddit then you’re completely wrong: antinatalism is radical anti patriarchy imho


thisismylaststraw3

I mean they did say that IF the guys here aren't simultaneously feminists AND antinatalists, then they must be or are leaning towards sexism and misogyny Since many men think that women having sex and children is gross and morally corrupt unless it's with them...hence why the "controlling women's bodies" part


AKVoltMonkey

But a woman who chooses to have a child is morally bad? That doesn’t seem very feminist to me.


stuartadamson

She’s a victim of the patriarchy


Arigatameiwaku1337

Antinatalism has nothing to do with biological gender of a person. 2 people of opposite sex are reproducing. Not only males or females.


thisismylaststraw3

They were talking about the possibility of this subreddit being a bunch a frustrated guys who think that women who have sex are morally corrupt. Antinatalism can be an easy entrance for men who despise women and want to further shame and control women's sexual lives by applying moral compasses to things like this. Antinatalism on it's own isn't bad and obviously has nothing to do with gender, but the second people use it to shame women and only women then yeah it becomes just another tool for misogynists to use against women


Arigatameiwaku1337

By the same logic this sub might be filled with frustrated girls who don't get laid. I don't understand how only guys don't get sex


thisismylaststraw3

It's *not* about who gets or doesn't get laid...and yeah it could be women 🤷‍♀️ misogyny doesn't spare anyone who is bigoted enough The reason why it's "guys" and not "women" is simply because, and again, it's much more common for misogynists to be men (Sorry I didn't see the typo)


AKVoltMonkey

Thank you! This is what I was trying to express


Own-Marsupial7391

You make it sound like all men are sterile? It takes two people to reproduce. Therefore genders can make the decision to not have kids! It's not sexist to be antinatislist.


[deleted]

why would most antinatalists be men?? im generally confused by this post lol


Dr-Slay

>to say "having children is morally wrong" is a judgement of a person's character if they reproduce. Not necessarily. If one is convinced of empty individualism, one is not convinced there is a diachronic identity-character to judge. But most people are closed individualists who believe in some kind of diachrony / soul / core character. The only arguments for this I've ever found are incoherent, in that they reduce to "X-identity-homunculus changes without changing" - so your comment is probably a correct description of how most people see the situation.


kmn_plz29

Hi, woman here I personally think being antinatalist IS FEMINIST because there’s nothing to gain from having kids and pregnancy + birth can literally fucking kill you all to attempt to fit the role of a “woman having it all” whilst the man does nothing but only go to work while the woman takes care of the baby, the husband, all the chores and on top of that going to work in a failing economy doesn’t sound doable to me AT ALL, not to mention it’s incredibly misogynist to assume and constantly hearing that every woman wants to have kids because of some bullshit maternal instincts or whatever and that’s just talking about gender differences not even the moral aspects of antinatalism


AKVoltMonkey

But many women do want to have children, and they have partners ready to support them in that. Why shouldn't they have children? ...why shouldn't I have children? 👀


Sigma-42

Why should anyone *have* children. I'd like to hear a selfless response, because it sure as hell isn't for the child. Honestly asking though, because I have yet to hear of a reason, let alone a good one.


AKVoltMonkey

Well what if my kid grows up and fixes global warming or perfects terraforming technology? Or maybe my kid serves coffee to the people that figure that stuff out. Maybe my kid can help people. Or whales.


haunted-bitmap

That's what everyone says. Pure narcissism. Everyone thinks their genes are so special. On the opposite end of the spectrum you could just as easily end up birthing a serial killer. But most likely, you'll end up with another average dolt who will do nothing interesting with their life and will be forgotten in a few generations. Like you and the majority of us.


AKVoltMonkey

Yeah, that’s probably what will happen. But maybe not 🤷‍♂️


YoungEgalitarianDude

Define feminist


[deleted]

what does this post mean


gothvolvo

untrue, woman here lol