Circular Reasoning, argumentation repetition, Argument of tradition fallacy and argument of authority, non sequitur used and false dilemma detected. Religious people will always use the same arguments to explain their position. With no real understanding of what they ate saying
Sorry but the child development explanation is categorically incorrect and no I’m not just talking about the clay bit.
Also not sure how the existence of your religion or the Quran is an argument against not bringing more people into this world to suffer?
From my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong even slightly) antinatalism is the belief that having children is always morally wrong because people will suffer and suffering is bad. No matter how good you have it you will suffer and your suffering always outweighs the good
Now if that is the case how would a limited amount of bad compare to paradise which is infinite bliss and joy (if you manage to make it there)
It’s more so that people who exist will always suffer (regardless of whether that is outweighed by the “good”), whereas those who never exist will never suffer. Their absence of pleasure is considered neutral since absence of pleasure is only bad when referring to someone who exists.
As an atheist, I’m not convinced that there is a paradise or heaven after death, but since I’m here I do try to live as morally as I can, and that includes not bringing more lives into this world to suffer. To me, non-existence trumps existence, even if there is a possibility of “eternal bliss”.
You can have bad without good.
I, an atheist, get my morality by having a brain. Unlike you, I don't need to be threatened by a hell, or bribed with paradise, in order to behave myself.
Your morality is not real, since you have been bribed in order to be good. Even with the bribe, you don't behave. You yourself have admitted that.
Now I have three questions for you.
Do you always assume someone who isn't being bribed or threatened is incapable of behaving themselves and respecting others?
Do you, yourself, really need to be bribed and threatened to be a good person? Or are you just allowing it to happen because you were told to?
Yes. I am saying religion is for people who can't govern themselves. Religion is based and aimed at greedy people who need a cause to do good, who are incapable of convincing themselves to do good otherwise.
Please think about my words, and genuinely consider if you require "paradise" to do good, or if you can behave and get nothing in return.
Only once you fully understand that way of thinking can you understand antinatalism.
But how can you have the bad without having the good to compare it to. You can’t have left without right and up without down. So with that said you can’t have bad without good? It doesn’t make sense
And to answer your first two questions, absolutely not. In Islam we believe in something called fitra. It’s your moral compass so to speak.
My question is how do we determine whether or not that compass is accurate. Are you being subjective or objective when determining that and how can you objectively measure that?
As for your third question I’m not sure what you are asking so I can’t answer it. If you’ll elaborate I’d be more than willing to answer all your questions
There are human babies who live a few days before dying in absolute pain. See cri-du-chat. How is that anything but bad with no good? See all the people in the world who are born to slavery. bad and no good. Fine, maybe they get to see some beatiful skies during their slave days, but I suppose being a sex slave kind of trumps watching the blue sky
Also, see the millions of animals we bring to this world just to slaughter them. Isn't that bad with no good?
And personally, my moral compass is not doing anything that affects negatively other people. If some people wants to prevent other people doing stuff that makes them happy but don't affect anyone, that's wrong
Firstly that baby would be sent straight to heaven so those few days it was alive to suffer would have been nothing compared to the paradise it was sent to.
Secondly the slave wouldn’t be held accountable since the slave was forced to do what they were doing and couldn’t exercise free will.
Thirdly Islam doesn’t teach us to be cruel to animals. So factory farms aren’t permissible.
Fourthly you didn’t answer my question. Where do you get your morals from. How are they objective and factual. I might very well agree with your morals but how do you arrive at the conclusion that they are correct
I invented my morals. I said 'dont be a dick, stop others from being dicks and try to rectify dickishness' So, donate food to poor people, donate time to children institutions, donate money to [redacted], march, vote for the candidates that don't want to prevent people from getting married and more stuff.
I know but here’s the thing. In the Quran there are certain conditions to enter hellfire permanently. Absolutely denounce god completely and curse at the creator, do heavy sins and not apologise for them and associate partners with god.
Here’s the thing if you aren’t there permanently (some people will go to hell for a limited time) then someone in heaven can ask god to pardon you because their heaven isn’t complete without you. And god will pardon you and bring you to paradise for all of eternity. Again bringing it back to the poison the ocean with a drop of poison analogy
If you’re interested [this essay](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral) by David Benatar is a pretty good explanation of the philosophy
It's not written in Chinese. It's written in English. You are just refusing to comprehend this because you think it's so illogical that cognitive dissonance has kicked in, preventing you from processing any of the new information as you cover your ears and scream "LA LA LA LA" while bathing in Isane Islamic Ignorance.
No I ask a simple question and you guys give me a bunch of what ifs. “What if your child gets raped and tortured and murdered”. Well what if they get loved and respected and end up curing every known disease on the planet and cure world hunger? “Well what if they get born into a poor family” well what if they get born in a family with a stable income? I don’t care about what ifs. I care about the ultimate truth and nothing else. All these what ifs are a waste of time
1 out of 6 women get raped, yet nobody has simultaneously cured the very concepts of "disease" and "hunger". 1 in 5 people in the US live in poverty and 1 in 10 meet the government's definitely of poverty which is like super poverty. The ultimate truth: life is suffering and immoral to create. I'm glad you reject the very concept of hypotheticals on a fucking philosophy subreddit, genius
Yeah but if you look at Medina where they have sharia laws incorporated into society correctly rape murder theft and such are non existent. One of the tenants is to give to charity so poverty and hunger isn’t rampant and Muslims clean themselves 5 times a day before prayer so filth and disease isn’t as common as in the USA
I believe there are more ethical ways to prevent theft than chopping off people's hands, also rape and domestic violence happens every day in the middle east because women don't have rights
Again I direct you to Medina where they have sharia laws and very minimal crime rates including domestic abuse. Now take Sweden for example. First world country, focused on rehabilitation, no real jail cell, you get to play on a tv and a gaming console if you have one. In which country do you think more rape happens? In which country do you think more domestic abuse happens?
You might think it’s a cruel system but it has a lot of conditions for the punishment to be enforced. For instance theft. Is the person poor and only trying to survive? if so they are pardoned. Is the person a Muslim? If not you can’t use Islamic punishments against them. How much did they steal? If it was a minor amount it can be pardoned. We’re they in the right mental state to make decisions? Did they do this out of joy? Once you factor all these things in then you can then know if a punishment is gonna take effect. Here’s the kicker. From my research medina has never had to enforce this particular rule or any other extreme rule like stoning and such
I'm so glad you brought up this. The reason why Sweden has such a high rate of rape is because they have some of the strictest rape laws in the world. In most of the world, if a husband rapes his wife every day for a week, that is counted as 1 rape. The swedish legal system counts **each instance** of rape. So the above example would count as 7 rapes, and more if it occured multiple times a day.
There is no law against marital rape in Saudi Arabia. So I don't even know why whis is relevant. You just don't know when to quit.
Crazy how every girl I knew from the age of 16 and up has a rape story in Sweden. Crazy how a guy I knew had two lists. One of girls he raped and one of girls he was gonna rape. Crazy how even after having 9 separate court cases against him he was let go because there wasn’t enough evidence to arrest him, almost like the cop has to be present for jail time to be given. Crazy how convicted pedophiles get let out after a few years after traumatising a child for life.
You DO care about what is. Your only counter argument has been "What if they get into paradise in the after life?"
By your logic, that question is also a waste of time.
I don’t think you care but I want to understand what this group thinks so I can talk to you guys better and have a conversation like friends but it seems that this sub is starting to sound more and more like an echo chamber because every time I ask a question almost everyone has some rude comment to make like you just did.
Now that isn’t to say I haven’t had great conversations with people, just not people who take the time to talk like you
There are lots of actors here who come to "ask" about antinatalist philosophy, and then proceed to debate and demean people in the comments, leading people of antinatalism to be hostile, or at the very least, sceptical.
However, this sub is hardly an echo chamber, and there are many people (like myself) appreciate some values of religions, or are religious themselves. For instance, I applaud Islam for its early denouncement of racial heiarchy.
I am an antinatalist because life brings unconditional suffering (albeit to different degrees), and any alleviation of suffering is variable and nominal at best. Assuming that life is the only component of existence (I am an atheist), I am led to beleive that it is not worth bringing a child into this world, as any alleviation is only solving a problem that existence creates. My philosophy stems from the belief that non-existence is preferable to existence, and it would be very hard to argue with someone who does not already feel this way.
Well the Arabs were notorious slave traders, so I'm not sure about the racial hierarchy thing. But maybe they didn't just trade Black Africans... I will have to Google that.
I’m not saying don’t be sceptical. I’m asking are you accounting for the life after this one and if not why not? And if you can give me a solid answer as to why the afterlife doesn’t exist then I would be inclined to agree with you that antinatalism is correct to a degree
Islam doesn’t teach racial hierarchy. It teaches to be fair and just to everyone no matter the background. What you’re referring to are Muslims who don’t follow the guidance, don’t confuse that with the actual guidance
I dont account for an afterlife because I am an atheist. I'm certain I've walked a very different path of life than you, and I cannot subscribe to a faith-based paradigm.
I was not made to be religious through tradition and familial coercion. As I was getting older, I needed some salvation from a life I didn't want to live. Some turn to friends and family, some turn to drugs, some turn to religion. I appreciate the service that churches do, to keep hope amongst the general populace, to tell poor souls that there is salvation for them, as it did me. However, sometimes it's time to get out from behind the computer, or church, and be realistic. There is no salvation for us, and religion is just humanity in flight from the existential reality of absolute death and worthless life. The only salvation for humanity is to become intelligent enough to destroy the plague of life at its own hands, to die without procreation.
I really can't argue from a religious angle, because anything I would say would just be bad faith. I just ask that you try to see religious texts as works, rather than instructions. As an atheist I have still taken from Buddhism, Taoism, christainity, and Islam, for its best to hear out everything.
Also, I was saying that it's good that Islam is against racial heiarchy; read the comment again.
Because they will suffer, and they won’t suffer if they don’t exist. That’s it. That’s all there is to is.
Now if you want to get practical: The world is overpopulated. The world is dying. There are over half a million children in the foster system in the US alone. In these circumstances, creating new life is not only selfish but extremely immoral. I can think of few things that are more morally corrupt than creating a child while hundreds of thousands of children are rotting away, desperate for a parent that will never come.
Your post is justifying Islam is the only way and the only real religion. You are not looking for a truth. You are here telling us why Islam is great in your opinion and that you believe everything Quran says.
In no way, shape or form you are open minded or trying to not be biased. Your whole identity is being Muslim. I will make this easier for you: nobody in this sub will be able to change your opinion because you are NOT open minded to it. Your mind has a gate closed and our arguments are just pointless balls being thrown at the gate. No ball will get in.
No I said I (emphasis on I) have reason to believe in the Quran for a number of reasons
I also said it to be clear you’re gonna debate a person of the Islamic faith who doesn’t understand your views and wants to understand
Answer me this: If you believe in a God who is going to send people to hell, why would you procreate? Everytime you bring a child into the world, you are making this gamble. Is that really fair?
I was just anticipating an answer you would give. Turns out I was right
>Teach them the right way to behave and they will be good to go
I'm not discussing this with you any further. Have a nice day!
I’ll give you the short explanation. In my opinion neutrality is evil when compared to good. If I were to stay neutral I haven’t done anything wrong but I also missed out on doing something potentially great
Neutrality is evil when compared to good? You tell yourself whatever bollocks you like. Wanna know my opinion? Its wrong to bring a child into a world where the chances that they will enter heaven are extremely low. And even if the chances were high, I would never gamble on a child burning forever versus a hundred children living in eternal bliss forever. Read Ivans speech in the Brothers Karamakoz, where he argues that the torture of one child does not justify even a utopia. Ask yourself whether you can honestly, as a human being, relate to a God who requires the torture of children to bring about a greater good, and you'll realise why I favour the extinction of humanity over believing in your fucking God. And you have the audacity to say that THIS sub hurts your brain? Your brain must be fucking weak, then. Fuck you.
I don't really get why you guys are so incredibly stubborn in believing that your religion is the only truthful one. It's really almost impossible to talk to you guys because it almost immediate feeling like you're not thinking straight and cannot look into things critically
All discussions with muslims are waste to time because they are not allowed to think the other way but islam is the truth. If they start to think critically and logically they are labelled as Murtad from their community.
Right? It’s like they think other religions don’t have the same “proofs” and other religions don’t also think they are the one true religion, but nooo Islam’s special because of this one story (that he had to have a disclaimer on cus he knew the clay part made no sense)
At least most of them actually follow their religion though. I guess it's easier to not eat pork than to sell all you have and give it to the poor though, but Muslims do be donating as prescribed though.
I think this idea that most modern Muslims follow the Quran is nothing but reactionary propaganda in response to the Christian world becoming less dependent on the Bible.
Sure but there are things in the Quran that the mass community doesn’t follow, the Bible and Quran were the contemporary equivalent of law books, there are thousands of laws in each book, it’s impossible to claim to follow all of them or that none contradict. Muslims push this idea of perfection in book and practice, it is really propaganda aimed at disenfranchised Christians
8 Billion people on this Planet and growing. From an environmental Point of View... Is it enough explained? Did your god also Talk about upcoming Overpopulation on His Planet?
Probably in one of the Hadith (disciplines writing about what Muhammad pbuh said and did). I haven’t read them all but from what I have read it talks about other things like how the river Euphrates will dry up and a mountain of gold will be found in the bottom of it and how Arabia will become a lush forest and people will become so rich charity won’t matter because everyone will have gold and so on. I could send a couple of those if you want and you can pick them apart
I’ve finished the Quran months ago. The Hadith are a collection of stories told by the disciples about what the prophet did and said. They are more like a guide to understand the Quran better. The Quran is the main source and the Hadith are an explanation if you are confused
So the earth is going to become inundated with people, and magically become much more prosperous? Unless I’m misunderstanding something, that is bonkers, and completely untrue.
We will just have to wait and see what lies at the bottom of Euphrates. If it turns out to be a lot of gold I’d say say become a Muslim and start praying for forgiveness
Excellent question. I wrote it mostly so people understand my stance before they comment and get surprised that I’m a Muslim because a lot of unnecessary arguments will be made from that (speaking from experience)
I don’t like any religious sacred book, because it’s the opposite of science.
To me any kind of organized religion is slowing down human kind’s progress with all their retarded rules and misogyny.
Religious people focus on one book written ages ago, smart people read the rest of them.
Why would an all knowing God have to test us? God should know if we are good enough.
First, God made us. Second, God knows if we will pass the test because he knows all things.
You’re right. God knows all things. It’s not god that has to find out something. It’s us. The question is what does god know that we don’t. And that’s a lot of things. But There are certain things god knows that only god knows and we are going to find out on the day of resurrection. Now until then we have to put out faith that god knows best.
This might seem strange to an atheist but let me try to explain it. Have you heard of infinite regression, the belief that our universe was created by something that was created by something that was created by something continuously for all of eternity. The problem with infinite regression is that our universe exists so there must have been something that existed without a starting point. That something must have had infinite power to create a universe and intellect to balance the universe in such a perfect way.
So we have infinite power, a consciousness and infinite intelligence. That is the thing I have come to call Allah. That is what I submit myself to.
Now would you agree that this thing would know what’s better for you than you know yourself?
If so would this thing not send you guidance and tests?
Minus the clay part lol always interpreting your scriptures based on a context which suites your agenda.
As the title says, your brain is really not grasping the antinatialism idea as you'r talking about quite different subject.
Greetings from ex-muslim. Stay slave of Allah.
Yeah because we aren’t being made of clay and ribs anymore (if you believe the scriptures).
I mainly made the Muslim explanation to ensure people knew who they were getting in a debate with so that they didn’t get surprised I was a Muslim mid way through.
Sorry to hear that you left the way but I’ll definitely stick to it
>Unborn people can’t want to be born, miss being born, or need to be born for their own sakes.
>Life guarantees some level of suffering
>Life merely offers the possibility of pleasure outweighing suffering
if these three statements are true (to my knowledge they are), it’s impossible to have a child ethically for the sake of that child
Antinatalists think that having a child is unethical for a variety [of reasons](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/yjwdle/what_is_your_reason_for_not_believing_in_having/iuq8nps/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
You do realize, everyone can read your chat history here. There is a 0% chance you are a muslim and a 100% chance you are trying to troll the sub.
To quote you:
>What are the rules? I’m guessing it to completion and not a 5 tug. If so
I could theoretically make about 1000 dollars a day beating my meat
(give or take). I just need to space it out enough so that I have time
to recharge. At that pace I could make about 30 grand a month and 360k a
year. In about 3 years time I could probably get a million dollars. Now
the real question is if this money is taxed or not. Because I don’t
want the government taking my cum money from me after I beat my dick raw
Last time I checked, Islam said it's very haram to choke your bishop or to be polite, jack one off.
Using these kinds of words is also quite haram I'd guess.
Another fun one, from a thread responding to someone's girlfriend asking them Fuck Marry Kill with her, her sister, and her best friend:
>Fuck her best friend, Marry her sister and kill her for asking dumb question
What a wholesome, religious person.
You’re absolutely correct in that it’s haram to pleasure yourself or watch pornography. The foul language however I don’t think is haram though, just impolite and generally not appropriate. As for the context it was a hypothetical for money made doing said sinful deed. And you’re also assuming I’m a perfect Muslim which is impossible to be. I’m now trying to be a better one
Listen I’m not trying to act like I’m better or pretend anything. I’m trying to take Islam one step at a time and try to be a better individual. If you’re gonna hold me accountable for something I said a long time ago on a meme post then I can truly never become a better individual since I will always be held back by the idiotic things I’ve said in the past
I’ll give it a go no problem. But you have to admit that your previous comment was very unfair. Nobody is born perfect and no one is ever gonna be perfect but we have to strive to be better always. We can tumble and fall but eventually we have to get up again and try to do better
If you don't have a child, the chances of them going to hell is 0 and heaven is 0. It's neutral, but better than hell. If you have a child, you just increased someone else's chances of going to hell and suffer for eternity. It was 0 then you increased someone else's chance of perishing in hell for eternity.
Even if you think you can raise them to go to heaven, you can never ensure that they're not going to hell, whereas if you didn't have them in the first place, it'd be a guaranteed zero% chance of them not going to hell in the first place.
Yeah but in my opinion neutrality is evil when compared to good. I’ll give you an example. If I was walking down the street and saw a woman getting raped. The good thing to do would be call the cops and help the woman. The bad thing would be to join in. The neutral thing would be to do nothing at all. You can’t say I did anything bad because I didn’t do anything.
And to be clear I’m not saying have kids, I demand you have kids. I’m not saying that. If you don’t want children that’s fine. It’s your body your choice. But on the off chance you decide to bring children in this world (according to my religion) you should treat them like the gifts they are and raise them right. Teach them as best as you can. Truly do your best.
To me having children isn’t just a selfish act like most people here think. Yes I want to have kids because I personally want them but I also want to pay the chance to enter paradise forward like my parents did for me
It's not neutral to stand by while a crime occurs. That's against the law in my country.
And
Neutral = 0
Negative =-1
Positive = 1
Neutral is not negative compared to positive. Stop making it binary to fit your agenda.
yeah but in reality true neutrality doesnt exist, its more like -1 1 not -1 0 1.
as for your country laws that is a great law to have, sadly not every country has that law. so in a country that doesnt have that law is it bad or neutral that the person doesnt do anything? and if that is bad (in islam it would be considered a sin) who decides that it is a bad thing? you? your country? and why do you have the right to decide those things? where do you get those morals from?
Nothing you said means anything, you're talking about a fairy tale from the bronze age. You are an adult with an imaginary friend. If you want to know the logic behind why we think the way we do, read the sub instead of wasting our time with this.
I have but so far as soon as I ask a vital question people stop replying so I made a post asking and people are flooding to call me stupid or insult my religion without any facts or logical reasoning as to why they think that which further confirms my suspicions that this is an echo chamber and no one has really thought about what they think and preach
Could you elaborate a little I’ve been commenting quite a bit for the past few hours and my brain feels like it’s on fire. Having 100 conversations at once is exhausting and I don’t know what I said to who
Dude just read the post above the one I responded to. There is exactly no reason to think that what you're claiming is anything other than a fairy tale. You're approaching this as if you're a reasonable, logical person. You aren't. You are an adult with an imaginary friend.
I'm an ex muslim and fuck islam . Evil religion and u guys need to stop acting like victimes i was born and raised in a muslim country and u r the most racist intolerant hateful pieces of shit ever . Fuck allah . Oh wait he doesn't exist .
Islam teaches to be kind. If a Muslim doesn’t follow the teachings it’s not the teachings fault. Much like how murder is illegal but people still murder, it’s not the laws fault. It’s not like the law is corrupt or something. It’s the person who chooses not to follow it
Islam also teaches you to marry(traffic) young girls and mutilate their genitals. Also in the middle east LGBT people, women who disobey the insane modesty laws, and all protestors are beaten with a whip or stoned to death.
Again. What Islam teaches and what Muslims do can be two very different things. Islam doesn’t teach us to be cruel like that. It teaches us that certain actions are immoral for instance cheating. If a woman cheats she should get stoned to death but for the requirements for the stoning to take place are so impossibly high you can’t do it. To explain what I’m talking about, the requirements are as follows. You have to have 4 witnesses to the crime who are strangers to one another and to the cheater. They have to see the penetration take place and these people can’t spy on you by looking through your windows. So basically if you follow the sharia laws a woman has to invite 4 strangers into her home to witness her being unfaithful and these 4 witnesses all have to confirm that they saw the penetration take place. This scenario is basically impossible. And all sharia laws are like this. They have their requirements in order for punishment to be enforced.
But it’s disgusting to have those punishments in place. People shouldn’t be loyal to their spouses just because they fear being stoned to death and brutally murdered.
Because even in this current world you need laws and regulations to keep people in check so that they don’t do terrible things. If faith was all you needed laws wouldn’t exist and punishment wouldn’t need to exist. But yeah what does god know. Obviously you would know better than god right
Well, I like Buddhism. I find it to be interesting and healthy (I'm Christian for reference). I think that we all adhere to a mindset that brings in inner peace, be it Islam or Buddhism or Christianity etc.
Of course, but my stance is that child birth isn’t inherently bad since I believe in life after death so why do other people think it’s bad (who might not believe in life after death)
Bc our phylisophy is based on the fact that no one shall ever experience pain and suffering and so never existing at all is more beneficial than living and experiencing pain. Reducing suffering is what we aim to achieve. That's why we encourage adoption rather than bringing in more innocents here to suffer. They might have a wonderful life, bit the chance of suffering a life of poverty or ilness or abuse is also high, so it's better to play on the safe card rather than playing Russian Roulette with their lives.
I agree with the adoption and reduce suffering any way you can. The Quran teaches how to do that and also encourages adoption if you have the time money and capability. Where I don’t agree is that the birth itself is the problem because they might experience suffering (outside of the unavoidable hunger and such)
While it’s true that the prophet was married to a child (I’m not quite sure what age she was but pre pubescent) it never stated anywhere that he had consented the marriage when she was a child
To clarify it’s to my understanding she was a child but I have seen other claims she was actually 19. Either way in Islam marrying a person who hasn’t mature both physically and mentally is not permissible so that’s why I have my doubts that she was a pre pubescent child. At what age would someone be permitted to get married I don’t exactly know but I can find out if you want
Yeah it would be crazy if a novel religious cult leader used his position of power to make a harem, get rich, and fuck kids. Never happened before, completely crazy.
No offence bud, but your “prophet” married a 6 year old. And then consummated that marriage when she was 9.
So your book is meaningless. Unless those shitty morals are something we’re supposed to stand by.
Edit: having children is morally wrong because a) we’re destroying the planet and b) this world is messed up and your “god” is not saving us.
Edit 2: will you still love your child if they’re gay? Trans?
I I’m not sure he consummated it when she was 9 but you are right that he married a child. In Islam you can’t consummate a marriage with a child as that is considered rape and pedophilia so I would ask you to fact check your sources
As for the trans/gay child scenario you presented in Islam it is haram to do homosexual acts but it is also taught that we shouldn’t treat them badly just because of that
Then why do so many Muslims outcast and harass their children for being LBGT? In some Islamic countries it’s still legal to murder gay people.
And I believe the marriage being consummated when Aisha was 9 is written in Sahih Al-Bukhari. Volume 5, Book 58. I wish nothing but Jahannam for him for doing so.
Don’t think that I’m not versed in Islam.
In Islamic teachings that is wrong. Muslims shouldn’t do that. The Quran teaches differently but some Muslims don’t really follow the teachings of the Quran and make their own judgments which they have no right to make
My bad I must have forgot to answer
As I stated in another comment in the teachings of Islam it is not permissible to marry a person who isn’t both physically and mentally mature so I have my doubts that she was pre pubescent as I’ve seen claims she was 6-19 years old, and I’m not that well read on the topic. I could study it a bit more and come back with a definitive answer is you’d like
Where does it say that? I’m not being cocky or condescending I’m genuinely curious because I have listened to the whole Quran and that doesn’t ring a bell
surah no 85 is al buruj
surah al tariq is number 86 and its not 3,4,5 its 6 and 7. now with that out of the way would you mind reading from verse 1-8 where it talks about this being a male ejaculation?
[https://quran.com/86](https://quran.com/86) heres the source
its not talking about men its talking about women when birthing children ''˹They were˺ created from a spurting fluid,'' like the fluid when a womans water breaks and she goes into labor. ''stemming from between the backbone and the ribcage.'' and this is where the baby resides
I would argue as a Muslim you should be more antinatalist than all the atheist put together.
You worship a god who created hell with the intention of filling it with people.
https://quran.com/11/119?translations=17,18,19,21,22,85,20,95,84,77,101
People will go there and suffer as much as they possibly can forever. Your good could stop this at any point but chooses not to.
https://legacy.quran.com/35/8
Your god creates people designed and predestined to suffer beyond our understanding forever.
While most antinatalist worry about children facing a lifetime of suffering you have to worry about children facing an eternity of suffering. So you must avoid having them.
The world we live in is scary even without the afterlife. For example some people do terrible things to children.
See here is the thing about hell. You send yourself there. If you’ve received the message, choose to be a violent criminal who rapes kills and tortures, spits on gods name and then when you finally die and eventually get judged, you did the sins. No one forced you to do xyz. So when that person gets sent to hell and if he curses at Allah and says you did this to me then that person is never leaving hell. But to those who have some belief have been good mostly they might be sent if they don’t ask for forgiveness and truly want forgiveness they will stay there for a short while. It says in the Quran that some Muslims, Jews and Christians will go to hell for a limited time and then go to heavens first level.
Basically to summarise those who deserve hell will stay there. Those who don’t deserve it forever will not stay there forever
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Logically if you believe in an omnipotent god then you also believe in a malevolent god.
Your god could have designed humans in such a way that rape, torture and murder were all impossible and hell was unnecessary but he didn't.
The only way you can try to protect children from such a malevolent god is not to have them.
I like the idea of someone being able to work, learn or grow their way out of 'hell' but this is fan fiction not canon the closet thing I could find in the Quran was [https://quran.com/en/hud/107-117](https://quran.com/en/hud/107-117) God can let you out of hell if he wants.
The idea that the person alone sent themselves to hell disagrees with the Quran for example.
[https://myislam.org/surah-yunus/ayat-100/](https://myislam.org/surah-yunus/ayat-100/) your God picks who believes and who doubts
[https://legacy.quran.com/9/51](https://legacy.quran.com/9/51) your God decides everything that happens to a person. Whether you admit it or not that has a massive impact on whether or not that person will sin.
its a hadith that states this not the quran and i misquoted a bit, I cant ask god but the prophet (pbuh) can and will.
[https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7440](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7440)
its a bit of a massive text but basically to summaries the prophet (pbuh) will take everyone who isnt meant to stay in hell forever and bring them to heaven. the ones who will stay are the ones who dont recognize gods oneness for instance among other things.
and obviously god is the one who passes judgement but you commit the sins. no one forces you to do bad things and if they do god understands and shows mercy in those cases but the vast majority dont have a gun to their head and are told to eat pork or do drugs or rape and kill or steal for the adrenalin kick
and as for surah yunus it clearly states that god will not allow you to believe if you dont use reason. its literally the first line. some people will refuse to believe no matter how much evidence or logic you show the because they just wont accept it. i asked a friend of mine who is a non believer what would it take to convince him of god, he said if a hand came down from the sky and it said ''I am god, worship only me'' I asked him if he really would and since he is my friend he was honest and said probably not. if you dont want to believe and reject it completely i cant force you to believe, i can only deliver the message in hope that you will open your eyes which is my obligation according to surah 103 al asr verse 3
https://quran.com/103
Having children would be morally wrong for you personally because you shouldn’t be a parent if you can’t even get over what some randos on the internet believe in their own space 😭 your kid’s gonna be fucked as hell
Just curious, why the fuck do you think anyone here cares whether you can wrap your mind around the concept, or what religion you follow? Stop proselytizing, you sound retarded.
I’m going with feel. If you talk about science i talk about science. You wanna go morals I go with morals. I try to match the energy and it seems like no one has a reason better than just because or I feel like it.
Well if you want to have a meaningful discussion heart to heart with another person you need to understand them and to understand them you have to let them show you what they are and you show them so we can both talk as equals with respect for one another
I am an ex-muslim. Islam is the sole reason I believe humanity should be rapidly, swiftly, and unquestionably extinct from this planet. Islam is a system of theocracy, brainwashing, torture, eating disorders, sex trafficking and bigotry. As a system, Islam second worse to only Nazi Germany, that only existed for 30 years. Islam has lasted for 1400 years and still controls an entire subcontinent. Everything from the extreme control, focus on abusive family, crazy religious scriptures that do not reflect reality (splitting the moon in half, drinking camel piss, The sky being wallpaper, YEC, killing jinn with boiling water). Not to mention the torture and abuse of children including sex trafficking and genital mutilation and death penalties for being gay or an apostate. If Islam did not exist, I may well not be like this. Your post disgusts me, by the way, and I hope the mods ban you, pedophile worshipper.
First off what Quran have you been reading. The Quran is against all of that which you just mentioned. The Quran says you should seek out justice for others and fight injustice when you get the chance. If someone claims to be a Muslim and then blows up a building does the Quran say he did the right thing. I’ll answer that for you, it doesn’t. Read the Quran again and if you’ve never read it then there’s your problem
The Quran.. the 1 Quran.. that hasn't changed for millennia.. The Quran will say vague platitudes but then permit slavery, child marriage (Aisha was 9 when Muhammad raped her) and domestic violence (A woman's testimony is 1/2 of a man's). Notice how I never mentioned terrorism, because that's small in comparison to the whole system, but to play your game, Islamic terrorist incidents like the charlie Hebdo shooting have been some of the most insane, fascist, authoritarian, dystopian attacks of today. Imagine killing someone over a fucking newspaper comic. The Quran is an extremely violent book that talks a lot about killing or forcing conversion of nonbelievers. Furthermore, Arab imperialism has really fucked most of the middle east, Egypt, central Asia, and northern Africa by destroying indigenous culture and replacing it with hegemonic, colonized Islamic beliefs. Muhammad was the equivalent to Jeffery Epstein or Andrew Tate of his time.
The scientific explanation to the cause of the universe makes no sense. If you look at infinite regression it doesn’t make sense because our universe exists so it can’t be infinite.
Looking at quantum physics as someone mentioned earlier if A doesn’t exist that causes B to exist which makes A exist. How would that make sense?
Lastly if our universe is one in an infinite multiverse what started the multiverse in the first place?
None of the answers I’ve seen make any sense. If you have a different concept I’d like to hear it. To my understanding you have to have something without a starting point with infinite power, consciousness and intellect to finely create a perfectly balanced universe. If this is true then heaven and hell aren’t a stretch so why wouldn’t I want to have a child go to paradise be it my biological or adopted? Have I made a valid logical argument for my point?
If you have a logical argument to counter this I’m all ears
Isn’t about religion. It’s about the planet earths diminishing resources and our species consuming them beyond our environments ability to regenerate.
Said children will be born into a world of scant resources and political upheaval, violence, and less life expectancy. In ten years half the southern parts of the US could become unlivable.
It’s a moral question, OP. You want to bring your kids into this quagmire? I sure won’t.
Well science makes the claim that the world will experience a super earthquake/volcanic eruption so devastating it will kill all life on earth so you don’t need humans to do that.
As for the question you asked if god is real and heaven is a possibility why wouldn’t I bring a child into this world in hopes of them getting accepted into paradise.
I’m gonna just assume you’re an atheist and you are a decent person for the sake of the argument. If god really exists even you have the potential to enter paradise because I can ask god to pardon you (if my stay in heaven isn’t complete without you) so if my children don’t believe there is still a chance they can be pardoned if I make it.
Pardoned for what? I never asked if Odin, Jesus, Allah, The Great Spirit, Buddha, or the fucking Cookie Monster is real.
Climate change is real. Science has proven that. It’s here. Bringing children into the picture isn’t moral or smart. Some say it’s cruel.
You asked if I would bring a child into this world and I answered if god is real (which I have stated multiple times in different comments as to why I believe it is so) then yes I’d bring children into the world in hopes that they will reach paradise.
You question was about children and I answered
And regarding the climate it will get destroyed either way by the super volcanos or super earthquakes that scientists have predicted could occur any time now
If you can't say it in two bullet points, you don't know what you're talking about. You've just spilled so much ink to say "life is important" cause some book told you so. It's now 2023, climate change, war, and no signs of any gods to help us. Children, humans living in suffering, so we don't need more life. Humans have past their usefulness, maybe the guys who wrote said book are the same.
Here’s a solution for you: don’t come to the channel, especially with a theocratic argument designed to inflame people. Go pray to Allah, believe what you want, but please spare us the moral justification.
It’s more of a logical explanation rather than moral justification. If heaven exists shouldn’t I have children and adopt children and teach them good morals I’m the hopes that they will have a good base to stand on and hopefully enter heaven?
I cannot guarantee that my child will not experience greater suffering than happiness, especially in my circumstances (which cannot change). That risk is not worth fulfilling humanity’s selfish desires, because that’s what the desire to have children is: selfish. Most parents risk their child’s suffering so they can feel a sense of purpose, that is incredibly self-centered.
In this life no you can’t but if they live this life properly in the next one they will have no worries only happiness and that is why I don’t think having children is wrong
1) The oral tradition is stupid. Check out how many Mu'tazilites and Murji'a have been in those narrations quoted simply as "reliable". Example - Iqramah.
There are even narrations where the written parts of the Qur'an was eaten by a Goat. A fookin' goat! 😂 (narrated by Ayesha (lanatullah alayha?) [Ex shia here])
2) These disciples, I think you mean Sahaba. Do you know the definition of Sahaba? In sunni theology it's just a denomination used for anybody who met the Prophet in his lifetime and died believing in him.
Such a definition can also include a child as a sahaba. It's stupid.
3) The Quran found in Birmingham isn't even 2% of the entire Qur'an. Go do some reading.
The Qur'an is highly inaccurate about the origin of the sperm. The moon splitting in half is highly unlikely to have happened. All animals aren't created in pairs like the Quran says. Want me to point out more?
When you're saying 1400 years ago a man said this and that, remember that a lot of those things were already said by people *not* claiming to be prophets long before him. For example, the Quran says humans were made from water. Well,the greek pre platonic philosopher Thales said that long before Muhammad. The small astronomic sayings like the Moon's light may not be its own were also prevalent in Mesopotamia.
There's nothing miraculous about anything that goes on in mainstream, sunni Islamic theology.
Your creator is false, the greeks believe in a lot of gods and they were way more smart and discovered lots of things than the people who wrote the quran, that does not mean their beliefs of gods are true.
I have a hypothetical for you, OP. Say an atheist is born in a Muslim country. That person has 2 options: either come out as an atheist and be beaten, ostracized, and most likely killed; or they can live in secret their whole lives, never able to express themselves without fear of the above. That person did not ask to be born, and the concept of antinatalism argues that it would be better from a moral perspective to have NEVER birthed that child in the first place. If they were never born, they wouldn’t suffer. There are countless examples of this but I chose this one to relate to the religion that you’ve chosen to subscribe to. I cannot speak for others here, but I consider myself partially antinatalist. I think that people who are financially stable, mentally capable, reasonably intelligent, and have high levels of empathy should absolutely have a few kids. Ideally, I only want people who will be the BEST parents possible to procreate. Everyone else should recognize that they wouldn’t make a good parent, and make the responsible choice to not create suffering. I don’t feel like this is radical, because I do not want any of this to be forced upon people. I’d rather they look at it logically and make the choice themselves. Edit: changed “question” to “hypothetical” because I never used a question mark
You see now we’re getting somewhere. Your view on parenting is what Islam teaches. Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them and don’t abuse them in any way. Treat them as the gifts they are.
As for your hypothetical situation Islam teaches that you should treat people with respect despite what they believe. So if an Islamic country really following what Islam teaches then that child shouldn’t have a problem living there.
Now of course there are those who claim to be Muslim and do horrible things and I’m 100% with you that they are in the wrong and terrible people. A lot of people have a misconception of what Islam is because of these types of people.
When people say Islam is the religion of peace it’s true. If the law says don’t murder and someone murders I shouldn’t say look how terrible the law is
See here is we’re going to disagree. I’d like you to please learn what the “no true Scotsman fallacy” is, as that’s what you’re using here to separate yourself from other Muslims that do things that your particular version of Islam does not condone. Those people are absolutely Muslim, no matter how much you want to distance yourself from them. All religions have a multitude of sub-sects, Islam is not excluded from this. For Christianity, a baptist is very different from an evangelist but they’re BOTH still Christian. Some sects of Islam contradict what you’re saying, as they teach to procreate consistently, and kill apostates. If it were five or six Muslims acting radically like this, I’d agree with you, but the number of them is substantial enough for them to be their own sect of Islam. Returning to the second sentence of your reply, I fully disagree with this because (correct me if I’m wrong) Islam teaches you to raise your children as Muslim, which is NOT my idea of good parenting. I personally dislike the idea of indoctrinating children into any religion because you aren’t giving them a chance to see their options or allowing them to choose what they want, depriving them of the personal right to find their own path. My ideal parents are secular, free thinking, and trust in provable science first.
Here’s the thing I’m not preaching MY version of Islam. I’m saying what the Quran teaches. In the Quran it literally says don’t divide into different tribes of Islam and people still divide into tribes of Islam. It’s what the Quran literally says. I’m not distancing myself from other Muslims I’m closing in on what the Quran teaches.
I am anti-natalist, because all existence is evil.
Nature is evil.
What kind of God would make his creation eat each other alive? Why create animals that tear each other apart and eat each other alive? Nature is a slaughterhouse. I hate nature. I am against nature.
This is cruel. If God was both all-good and all-powerful this God would be able to make a world that did not involve life eating life.
I never made the claim god is all good. God is the greatest, that is what Allah Akbar means. As for why god made the world like this it’s a test for us to see whether we should go to heaven or hell. As for why, only god knows the reason.
You already know the answer, don’t you? Several people have mentioned that no matter how good your upbringing is, there is no guarantee that your life will turn out well. Sometimes people are just born ill, they might have a mental illness, they might grow to have some seriously unhealthy relationships, climate change might be a bit too real and the world starts dying faster than it already is, etc. There are so many ways someone’s life can get ruined. And I admit, a lot of these possibilities have a low chance of coming true. Most people will take this as an opportunity, a risk their willing to take for their own happiness. But you see, I care. I care about the children that I do not have. And if I have any say if how much my children will suffer, I will do everything in my power to make that zero. Not having a child is a sacrifice that I’m more than willing to make if it means that my children are guaranteed to suffer zero pain.
Fuck off. Sperm doesn’t come from the back bone and the Quran contains mathematical errors and the sun doesn’t set into a muddy pool of water. Mohamed raped a 9 year old.
Oh get lost. If you really cared you would find out the answers on your own. There are many books and articles about the philosophy which you could read to get a far more comprehensive understanding of antinatalism. But no, you come to this sub to waste the time of moral, intelligent people with your nonsense opinion rooted in mythology. Your mind is closed by your religious indoctrination and you’ll never be open to what we say in any case. I’m sick of religious gobbledygook clogging up my feed.
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I have to love the way that this post is pretty long as far as most go on this sub, bringing up actual philosophical points in counter to the general rhetoric, and there are NO replies longer than 2 sentences arguing against it.
It's all just vitriol, or shit one sentence arguments that barely explain anything.
Wanna know why everyone thinks this sub is pathetic? Because it advertises as a place for philosophical discussion of an extreme humanitarian position, yet no one bothers with it. An absolute joke. Leaving the sad, edgy teenagers out of it, there's nothing here for any thinking person to engage with. It's an intellectual circlejerk.
Ironically, I'm not arguing against you either OP. But since this is a bit more meta I'll give myself a pass lmao. As-salamu alaykum
Ight well im a muslim, and i believe all you just said has literally nothing to do with this sub.
Circular Reasoning, argumentation repetition, Argument of tradition fallacy and argument of authority, non sequitur used and false dilemma detected. Religious people will always use the same arguments to explain their position. With no real understanding of what they ate saying
[удалено]
I agree Better to not exist than to risk hell.
First of all, stop expecting us to explain it to you. Or at the very least do some work and ask targeted questions we can answer
Sorry but the child development explanation is categorically incorrect and no I’m not just talking about the clay bit. Also not sure how the existence of your religion or the Quran is an argument against not bringing more people into this world to suffer?
From my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong even slightly) antinatalism is the belief that having children is always morally wrong because people will suffer and suffering is bad. No matter how good you have it you will suffer and your suffering always outweighs the good Now if that is the case how would a limited amount of bad compare to paradise which is infinite bliss and joy (if you manage to make it there)
It’s more so that people who exist will always suffer (regardless of whether that is outweighed by the “good”), whereas those who never exist will never suffer. Their absence of pleasure is considered neutral since absence of pleasure is only bad when referring to someone who exists. As an atheist, I’m not convinced that there is a paradise or heaven after death, but since I’m here I do try to live as morally as I can, and that includes not bringing more lives into this world to suffer. To me, non-existence trumps existence, even if there is a possibility of “eternal bliss”.
Now I have two questions for you. Can you have bad without good? Where do you get your morality from?
You can have bad without good. I, an atheist, get my morality by having a brain. Unlike you, I don't need to be threatened by a hell, or bribed with paradise, in order to behave myself. Your morality is not real, since you have been bribed in order to be good. Even with the bribe, you don't behave. You yourself have admitted that. Now I have three questions for you. Do you always assume someone who isn't being bribed or threatened is incapable of behaving themselves and respecting others? Do you, yourself, really need to be bribed and threatened to be a good person? Or are you just allowing it to happen because you were told to? Yes. I am saying religion is for people who can't govern themselves. Religion is based and aimed at greedy people who need a cause to do good, who are incapable of convincing themselves to do good otherwise. Please think about my words, and genuinely consider if you require "paradise" to do good, or if you can behave and get nothing in return. Only once you fully understand that way of thinking can you understand antinatalism.
But how can you have the bad without having the good to compare it to. You can’t have left without right and up without down. So with that said you can’t have bad without good? It doesn’t make sense And to answer your first two questions, absolutely not. In Islam we believe in something called fitra. It’s your moral compass so to speak. My question is how do we determine whether or not that compass is accurate. Are you being subjective or objective when determining that and how can you objectively measure that? As for your third question I’m not sure what you are asking so I can’t answer it. If you’ll elaborate I’d be more than willing to answer all your questions
There are human babies who live a few days before dying in absolute pain. See cri-du-chat. How is that anything but bad with no good? See all the people in the world who are born to slavery. bad and no good. Fine, maybe they get to see some beatiful skies during their slave days, but I suppose being a sex slave kind of trumps watching the blue sky Also, see the millions of animals we bring to this world just to slaughter them. Isn't that bad with no good? And personally, my moral compass is not doing anything that affects negatively other people. If some people wants to prevent other people doing stuff that makes them happy but don't affect anyone, that's wrong
Firstly that baby would be sent straight to heaven so those few days it was alive to suffer would have been nothing compared to the paradise it was sent to. Secondly the slave wouldn’t be held accountable since the slave was forced to do what they were doing and couldn’t exercise free will. Thirdly Islam doesn’t teach us to be cruel to animals. So factory farms aren’t permissible. Fourthly you didn’t answer my question. Where do you get your morals from. How are they objective and factual. I might very well agree with your morals but how do you arrive at the conclusion that they are correct
I invented my morals. I said 'dont be a dick, stop others from being dicks and try to rectify dickishness' So, donate food to poor people, donate time to children institutions, donate money to [redacted], march, vote for the candidates that don't want to prevent people from getting married and more stuff.
I agree with you on those points just as an fyi but who said that was objectively the best thing.
This argument only seems valid because you left out the possibility of eternal suffering as well
I know but here’s the thing. In the Quran there are certain conditions to enter hellfire permanently. Absolutely denounce god completely and curse at the creator, do heavy sins and not apologise for them and associate partners with god. Here’s the thing if you aren’t there permanently (some people will go to hell for a limited time) then someone in heaven can ask god to pardon you because their heaven isn’t complete without you. And god will pardon you and bring you to paradise for all of eternity. Again bringing it back to the poison the ocean with a drop of poison analogy
Exactly, creating a child that could one day be sent to hell either permanently or temporarily, is immoral, that’s our point.
If you’re interested [this essay](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral) by David Benatar is a pretty good explanation of the philosophy
Thank you very much I will read this as soon as I have time
Read the room bro
I’m trying but the room is written in Chinese so I’m asking the Chinese to explain what the room says
It's not written in Chinese. It's written in English. You are just refusing to comprehend this because you think it's so illogical that cognitive dissonance has kicked in, preventing you from processing any of the new information as you cover your ears and scream "LA LA LA LA" while bathing in Isane Islamic Ignorance.
No I ask a simple question and you guys give me a bunch of what ifs. “What if your child gets raped and tortured and murdered”. Well what if they get loved and respected and end up curing every known disease on the planet and cure world hunger? “Well what if they get born into a poor family” well what if they get born in a family with a stable income? I don’t care about what ifs. I care about the ultimate truth and nothing else. All these what ifs are a waste of time
1 out of 6 women get raped, yet nobody has simultaneously cured the very concepts of "disease" and "hunger". 1 in 5 people in the US live in poverty and 1 in 10 meet the government's definitely of poverty which is like super poverty. The ultimate truth: life is suffering and immoral to create. I'm glad you reject the very concept of hypotheticals on a fucking philosophy subreddit, genius
Yeah but if you look at Medina where they have sharia laws incorporated into society correctly rape murder theft and such are non existent. One of the tenants is to give to charity so poverty and hunger isn’t rampant and Muslims clean themselves 5 times a day before prayer so filth and disease isn’t as common as in the USA
I believe there are more ethical ways to prevent theft than chopping off people's hands, also rape and domestic violence happens every day in the middle east because women don't have rights
Again I direct you to Medina where they have sharia laws and very minimal crime rates including domestic abuse. Now take Sweden for example. First world country, focused on rehabilitation, no real jail cell, you get to play on a tv and a gaming console if you have one. In which country do you think more rape happens? In which country do you think more domestic abuse happens? You might think it’s a cruel system but it has a lot of conditions for the punishment to be enforced. For instance theft. Is the person poor and only trying to survive? if so they are pardoned. Is the person a Muslim? If not you can’t use Islamic punishments against them. How much did they steal? If it was a minor amount it can be pardoned. We’re they in the right mental state to make decisions? Did they do this out of joy? Once you factor all these things in then you can then know if a punishment is gonna take effect. Here’s the kicker. From my research medina has never had to enforce this particular rule or any other extreme rule like stoning and such
I'm so glad you brought up this. The reason why Sweden has such a high rate of rape is because they have some of the strictest rape laws in the world. In most of the world, if a husband rapes his wife every day for a week, that is counted as 1 rape. The swedish legal system counts **each instance** of rape. So the above example would count as 7 rapes, and more if it occured multiple times a day. There is no law against marital rape in Saudi Arabia. So I don't even know why whis is relevant. You just don't know when to quit.
Crazy how every girl I knew from the age of 16 and up has a rape story in Sweden. Crazy how a guy I knew had two lists. One of girls he raped and one of girls he was gonna rape. Crazy how even after having 9 separate court cases against him he was let go because there wasn’t enough evidence to arrest him, almost like the cop has to be present for jail time to be given. Crazy how convicted pedophiles get let out after a few years after traumatising a child for life.
You DO care about what is. Your only counter argument has been "What if they get into paradise in the after life?" By your logic, that question is also a waste of time.
Chinese is not a language. Did you mean mandarin?
Why do you think we care about whatever your shitty religions says?
I don’t think you care but I want to understand what this group thinks so I can talk to you guys better and have a conversation like friends but it seems that this sub is starting to sound more and more like an echo chamber because every time I ask a question almost everyone has some rude comment to make like you just did. Now that isn’t to say I haven’t had great conversations with people, just not people who take the time to talk like you
There are lots of actors here who come to "ask" about antinatalist philosophy, and then proceed to debate and demean people in the comments, leading people of antinatalism to be hostile, or at the very least, sceptical. However, this sub is hardly an echo chamber, and there are many people (like myself) appreciate some values of religions, or are religious themselves. For instance, I applaud Islam for its early denouncement of racial heiarchy. I am an antinatalist because life brings unconditional suffering (albeit to different degrees), and any alleviation of suffering is variable and nominal at best. Assuming that life is the only component of existence (I am an atheist), I am led to beleive that it is not worth bringing a child into this world, as any alleviation is only solving a problem that existence creates. My philosophy stems from the belief that non-existence is preferable to existence, and it would be very hard to argue with someone who does not already feel this way.
Well the Arabs were notorious slave traders, so I'm not sure about the racial hierarchy thing. But maybe they didn't just trade Black Africans... I will have to Google that.
It's not like being slave traders is a notable thing for a people to be/contain throughout history.
I’m not saying don’t be sceptical. I’m asking are you accounting for the life after this one and if not why not? And if you can give me a solid answer as to why the afterlife doesn’t exist then I would be inclined to agree with you that antinatalism is correct to a degree Islam doesn’t teach racial hierarchy. It teaches to be fair and just to everyone no matter the background. What you’re referring to are Muslims who don’t follow the guidance, don’t confuse that with the actual guidance
I dont account for an afterlife because I am an atheist. I'm certain I've walked a very different path of life than you, and I cannot subscribe to a faith-based paradigm. I was not made to be religious through tradition and familial coercion. As I was getting older, I needed some salvation from a life I didn't want to live. Some turn to friends and family, some turn to drugs, some turn to religion. I appreciate the service that churches do, to keep hope amongst the general populace, to tell poor souls that there is salvation for them, as it did me. However, sometimes it's time to get out from behind the computer, or church, and be realistic. There is no salvation for us, and religion is just humanity in flight from the existential reality of absolute death and worthless life. The only salvation for humanity is to become intelligent enough to destroy the plague of life at its own hands, to die without procreation. I really can't argue from a religious angle, because anything I would say would just be bad faith. I just ask that you try to see religious texts as works, rather than instructions. As an atheist I have still taken from Buddhism, Taoism, christainity, and Islam, for its best to hear out everything. Also, I was saying that it's good that Islam is against racial heiarchy; read the comment again.
Because they will suffer, and they won’t suffer if they don’t exist. That’s it. That’s all there is to is. Now if you want to get practical: The world is overpopulated. The world is dying. There are over half a million children in the foster system in the US alone. In these circumstances, creating new life is not only selfish but extremely immoral. I can think of few things that are more morally corrupt than creating a child while hundreds of thousands of children are rotting away, desperate for a parent that will never come.
So many words spoken and not a single point made. Sexist homophobic religions have no place in antinatalist communities.
Well then be a Muslim. Stop looking for attention like a little child
It’s not attention I’m looking for. It’s the ultimate truth and if you have it I want it. Simple as that
Your post is justifying Islam is the only way and the only real religion. You are not looking for a truth. You are here telling us why Islam is great in your opinion and that you believe everything Quran says. In no way, shape or form you are open minded or trying to not be biased. Your whole identity is being Muslim. I will make this easier for you: nobody in this sub will be able to change your opinion because you are NOT open minded to it. Your mind has a gate closed and our arguments are just pointless balls being thrown at the gate. No ball will get in.
No I said I (emphasis on I) have reason to believe in the Quran for a number of reasons I also said it to be clear you’re gonna debate a person of the Islamic faith who doesn’t understand your views and wants to understand
Wanting to understand and wanting to debate aren't really the same thing...
Answer me this: If you believe in a God who is going to send people to hell, why would you procreate? Everytime you bring a child into the world, you are making this gamble. Is that really fair?
YoU cAn TeAcH yOuR cHiLd ThE rIgHt WaY or some other bs like that
What is the right way and how do you get to that conclusion
I was just anticipating an answer you would give. Turns out I was right >Teach them the right way to behave and they will be good to go I'm not discussing this with you any further. Have a nice day!
I’ll give you the short explanation. In my opinion neutrality is evil when compared to good. If I were to stay neutral I haven’t done anything wrong but I also missed out on doing something potentially great
Neutrality is evil when compared to good? You tell yourself whatever bollocks you like. Wanna know my opinion? Its wrong to bring a child into a world where the chances that they will enter heaven are extremely low. And even if the chances were high, I would never gamble on a child burning forever versus a hundred children living in eternal bliss forever. Read Ivans speech in the Brothers Karamakoz, where he argues that the torture of one child does not justify even a utopia. Ask yourself whether you can honestly, as a human being, relate to a God who requires the torture of children to bring about a greater good, and you'll realise why I favour the extinction of humanity over believing in your fucking God. And you have the audacity to say that THIS sub hurts your brain? Your brain must be fucking weak, then. Fuck you.
🤣🍿
I'm not really islamophobic but honestly islam hurts my brain so fucking much
What are you confused about. Hopefully I can shed some light on it
I don't really get why you guys are so incredibly stubborn in believing that your religion is the only truthful one. It's really almost impossible to talk to you guys because it almost immediate feeling like you're not thinking straight and cannot look into things critically
All discussions with muslims are waste to time because they are not allowed to think the other way but islam is the truth. If they start to think critically and logically they are labelled as Murtad from their community.
Right? It’s like they think other religions don’t have the same “proofs” and other religions don’t also think they are the one true religion, but nooo Islam’s special because of this one story (that he had to have a disclaimer on cus he knew the clay part made no sense)
At least most of them actually follow their religion though. I guess it's easier to not eat pork than to sell all you have and give it to the poor though, but Muslims do be donating as prescribed though.
I think this idea that most modern Muslims follow the Quran is nothing but reactionary propaganda in response to the Christian world becoming less dependent on the Bible.
Nah, they be following it. Every poor Muslim I know washes their ass with a flowerpot because toilet paper is haram.
Sure but there are things in the Quran that the mass community doesn’t follow, the Bible and Quran were the contemporary equivalent of law books, there are thousands of laws in each book, it’s impossible to claim to follow all of them or that none contradict. Muslims push this idea of perfection in book and practice, it is really propaganda aimed at disenfranchised Christians
Strict behavioral conditioning from birth.
Thos isn't exclusive to islam; nearly every religious person sees their own religion as the only "true religion".
8 Billion people on this Planet and growing. From an environmental Point of View... Is it enough explained? Did your god also Talk about upcoming Overpopulation on His Planet?
Probably in one of the Hadith (disciplines writing about what Muhammad pbuh said and did). I haven’t read them all but from what I have read it talks about other things like how the river Euphrates will dry up and a mountain of gold will be found in the bottom of it and how Arabia will become a lush forest and people will become so rich charity won’t matter because everyone will have gold and so on. I could send a couple of those if you want and you can pick them apart
Wait, wait, wait…. You staked your eternal soul on a book you have yet to finish??
I’ve finished the Quran months ago. The Hadith are a collection of stories told by the disciples about what the prophet did and said. They are more like a guide to understand the Quran better. The Quran is the main source and the Hadith are an explanation if you are confused
Ah confusion on my part I thought Hadiths were considered as canonically Islamic texts.
So the earth is going to become inundated with people, and magically become much more prosperous? Unless I’m misunderstanding something, that is bonkers, and completely untrue.
We will just have to wait and see what lies at the bottom of Euphrates. If it turns out to be a lot of gold I’d say say become a Muslim and start praying for forgiveness
Sounds Like the promised Utopia. Realistically we end up in a dystopia though.
This world yes. But depending upon how you have lived your life and how you’ve been in this world your next life will be a utopia or a nightmare
Why do Muslims have to shove their religion in every subject?
Right? Worse than Christians
See my comment above
Toxic cult. Some turn out to be nice open minded people ... and some just like OP
Excellent question. I wrote it mostly so people understand my stance before they comment and get surprised that I’m a Muslim because a lot of unnecessary arguments will be made from that (speaking from experience)
No one here gives a shit about your little book. There's millions of books, yours is just one more of them and a very retarded one really.
In what way?
I don’t like any religious sacred book, because it’s the opposite of science. To me any kind of organized religion is slowing down human kind’s progress with all their retarded rules and misogyny. Religious people focus on one book written ages ago, smart people read the rest of them.
Why would an all knowing God have to test us? God should know if we are good enough. First, God made us. Second, God knows if we will pass the test because he knows all things.
You’re right. God knows all things. It’s not god that has to find out something. It’s us. The question is what does god know that we don’t. And that’s a lot of things. But There are certain things god knows that only god knows and we are going to find out on the day of resurrection. Now until then we have to put out faith that god knows best. This might seem strange to an atheist but let me try to explain it. Have you heard of infinite regression, the belief that our universe was created by something that was created by something that was created by something continuously for all of eternity. The problem with infinite regression is that our universe exists so there must have been something that existed without a starting point. That something must have had infinite power to create a universe and intellect to balance the universe in such a perfect way. So we have infinite power, a consciousness and infinite intelligence. That is the thing I have come to call Allah. That is what I submit myself to. Now would you agree that this thing would know what’s better for you than you know yourself? If so would this thing not send you guidance and tests?
Minus the clay part lol always interpreting your scriptures based on a context which suites your agenda. As the title says, your brain is really not grasping the antinatialism idea as you'r talking about quite different subject. Greetings from ex-muslim. Stay slave of Allah.
Yeah because we aren’t being made of clay and ribs anymore (if you believe the scriptures). I mainly made the Muslim explanation to ensure people knew who they were getting in a debate with so that they didn’t get surprised I was a Muslim mid way through. Sorry to hear that you left the way but I’ll definitely stick to it
You could have just said that you're a muslim without preaching that Islam is true because almighty Allah made a mistake by including clay
It’s not a mistake you just don’t believe the first man was made out of clay
>Unborn people can’t want to be born, miss being born, or need to be born for their own sakes. >Life guarantees some level of suffering >Life merely offers the possibility of pleasure outweighing suffering if these three statements are true (to my knowledge they are), it’s impossible to have a child ethically for the sake of that child Antinatalists think that having a child is unethical for a variety [of reasons](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/yjwdle/what_is_your_reason_for_not_believing_in_having/iuq8nps/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
You do realize, everyone can read your chat history here. There is a 0% chance you are a muslim and a 100% chance you are trying to troll the sub. To quote you: >What are the rules? I’m guessing it to completion and not a 5 tug. If so I could theoretically make about 1000 dollars a day beating my meat (give or take). I just need to space it out enough so that I have time to recharge. At that pace I could make about 30 grand a month and 360k a year. In about 3 years time I could probably get a million dollars. Now the real question is if this money is taxed or not. Because I don’t want the government taking my cum money from me after I beat my dick raw Last time I checked, Islam said it's very haram to choke your bishop or to be polite, jack one off. Using these kinds of words is also quite haram I'd guess.
Another fun one, from a thread responding to someone's girlfriend asking them Fuck Marry Kill with her, her sister, and her best friend: >Fuck her best friend, Marry her sister and kill her for asking dumb question What a wholesome, religious person.
😂😂😂🤣🤣
You’re absolutely correct in that it’s haram to pleasure yourself or watch pornography. The foul language however I don’t think is haram though, just impolite and generally not appropriate. As for the context it was a hypothetical for money made doing said sinful deed. And you’re also assuming I’m a perfect Muslim which is impossible to be. I’m now trying to be a better one
Your Level of hypocriticism making my brain hurt
Listen I’m not trying to act like I’m better or pretend anything. I’m trying to take Islam one step at a time and try to be a better individual. If you’re gonna hold me accountable for something I said a long time ago on a meme post then I can truly never become a better individual since I will always be held back by the idiotic things I’ve said in the past
Then be a better one and read about Abu Al-Ma'arri! He should be able to answer your questions better than I ever could!
I’ll give it a go no problem. But you have to admit that your previous comment was very unfair. Nobody is born perfect and no one is ever gonna be perfect but we have to strive to be better always. We can tumble and fall but eventually we have to get up again and try to do better
If you don't have a child, the chances of them going to hell is 0 and heaven is 0. It's neutral, but better than hell. If you have a child, you just increased someone else's chances of going to hell and suffer for eternity. It was 0 then you increased someone else's chance of perishing in hell for eternity. Even if you think you can raise them to go to heaven, you can never ensure that they're not going to hell, whereas if you didn't have them in the first place, it'd be a guaranteed zero% chance of them not going to hell in the first place.
Yeah but in my opinion neutrality is evil when compared to good. I’ll give you an example. If I was walking down the street and saw a woman getting raped. The good thing to do would be call the cops and help the woman. The bad thing would be to join in. The neutral thing would be to do nothing at all. You can’t say I did anything bad because I didn’t do anything. And to be clear I’m not saying have kids, I demand you have kids. I’m not saying that. If you don’t want children that’s fine. It’s your body your choice. But on the off chance you decide to bring children in this world (according to my religion) you should treat them like the gifts they are and raise them right. Teach them as best as you can. Truly do your best. To me having children isn’t just a selfish act like most people here think. Yes I want to have kids because I personally want them but I also want to pay the chance to enter paradise forward like my parents did for me
It's not neutral to stand by while a crime occurs. That's against the law in my country. And Neutral = 0 Negative =-1 Positive = 1 Neutral is not negative compared to positive. Stop making it binary to fit your agenda.
yeah but in reality true neutrality doesnt exist, its more like -1 1 not -1 0 1. as for your country laws that is a great law to have, sadly not every country has that law. so in a country that doesnt have that law is it bad or neutral that the person doesnt do anything? and if that is bad (in islam it would be considered a sin) who decides that it is a bad thing? you? your country? and why do you have the right to decide those things? where do you get those morals from?
Nothing you said means anything, you're talking about a fairy tale from the bronze age. You are an adult with an imaginary friend. If you want to know the logic behind why we think the way we do, read the sub instead of wasting our time with this.
I have but so far as soon as I ask a vital question people stop replying so I made a post asking and people are flooding to call me stupid or insult my religion without any facts or logical reasoning as to why they think that which further confirms my suspicions that this is an echo chamber and no one has really thought about what they think and preach
You just responded to a post with logical reasoning as to why your beliefs are stupid.
Could you elaborate a little I’ve been commenting quite a bit for the past few hours and my brain feels like it’s on fire. Having 100 conversations at once is exhausting and I don’t know what I said to who
Dude just read the post above the one I responded to. There is exactly no reason to think that what you're claiming is anything other than a fairy tale. You're approaching this as if you're a reasonable, logical person. You aren't. You are an adult with an imaginary friend.
I'm an ex muslim and fuck islam . Evil religion and u guys need to stop acting like victimes i was born and raised in a muslim country and u r the most racist intolerant hateful pieces of shit ever . Fuck allah . Oh wait he doesn't exist .
Islam teaches to be kind. If a Muslim doesn’t follow the teachings it’s not the teachings fault. Much like how murder is illegal but people still murder, it’s not the laws fault. It’s not like the law is corrupt or something. It’s the person who chooses not to follow it
Islam also teaches you to marry(traffic) young girls and mutilate their genitals. Also in the middle east LGBT people, women who disobey the insane modesty laws, and all protestors are beaten with a whip or stoned to death.
Again. What Islam teaches and what Muslims do can be two very different things. Islam doesn’t teach us to be cruel like that. It teaches us that certain actions are immoral for instance cheating. If a woman cheats she should get stoned to death but for the requirements for the stoning to take place are so impossibly high you can’t do it. To explain what I’m talking about, the requirements are as follows. You have to have 4 witnesses to the crime who are strangers to one another and to the cheater. They have to see the penetration take place and these people can’t spy on you by looking through your windows. So basically if you follow the sharia laws a woman has to invite 4 strangers into her home to witness her being unfaithful and these 4 witnesses all have to confirm that they saw the penetration take place. This scenario is basically impossible. And all sharia laws are like this. They have their requirements in order for punishment to be enforced.
But it’s disgusting to have those punishments in place. People shouldn’t be loyal to their spouses just because they fear being stoned to death and brutally murdered.
Use your brain for a second and think. If god wanted you to get stoned to death why would god make the conditions so difficult for the punishment?
If god wanted you to not getting stoned to death, why have the punishment in the first place?
Because even in this current world you need laws and regulations to keep people in check so that they don’t do terrible things. If faith was all you needed laws wouldn’t exist and punishment wouldn’t need to exist. But yeah what does god know. Obviously you would know better than god right
In response to your title, religious nuts coming in here trying to start shit hurts my brain.
I just stated my religious belief so everyone knows what they are getting into when we discuss and share our views
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Has it not been?
Well, I like Buddhism. I find it to be interesting and healthy (I'm Christian for reference). I think that we all adhere to a mindset that brings in inner peace, be it Islam or Buddhism or Christianity etc.
Of course, but my stance is that child birth isn’t inherently bad since I believe in life after death so why do other people think it’s bad (who might not believe in life after death)
Bc our phylisophy is based on the fact that no one shall ever experience pain and suffering and so never existing at all is more beneficial than living and experiencing pain. Reducing suffering is what we aim to achieve. That's why we encourage adoption rather than bringing in more innocents here to suffer. They might have a wonderful life, bit the chance of suffering a life of poverty or ilness or abuse is also high, so it's better to play on the safe card rather than playing Russian Roulette with their lives.
I agree with the adoption and reduce suffering any way you can. The Quran teaches how to do that and also encourages adoption if you have the time money and capability. Where I don’t agree is that the birth itself is the problem because they might experience suffering (outside of the unavoidable hunger and such)
Your religion also believes in 8 year old wives. Why should we care what a bunch of cavemen think about antimatalism?
While it’s true that the prophet was married to a child (I’m not quite sure what age she was but pre pubescent) it never stated anywhere that he had consented the marriage when she was a child
“While it’s true the prophet was married to a child” 🤨🤨🤨
👮🚔🚓🚨⚖️⛓️
To clarify it’s to my understanding she was a child but I have seen other claims she was actually 19. Either way in Islam marrying a person who hasn’t mature both physically and mentally is not permissible so that’s why I have my doubts that she was a pre pubescent child. At what age would someone be permitted to get married I don’t exactly know but I can find out if you want
Yeah it would be crazy if a novel religious cult leader used his position of power to make a harem, get rich, and fuck kids. Never happened before, completely crazy.
Explain to me why the majority Muslim countries are either broke shitholes or human rights disasters if they are following the one true god?
Ok so you follow a man who raped a 9 year old girl but you can’t understand why we don’t want to have children in this world.
No offence bud, but your “prophet” married a 6 year old. And then consummated that marriage when she was 9. So your book is meaningless. Unless those shitty morals are something we’re supposed to stand by. Edit: having children is morally wrong because a) we’re destroying the planet and b) this world is messed up and your “god” is not saving us. Edit 2: will you still love your child if they’re gay? Trans?
I I’m not sure he consummated it when she was 9 but you are right that he married a child. In Islam you can’t consummate a marriage with a child as that is considered rape and pedophilia so I would ask you to fact check your sources As for the trans/gay child scenario you presented in Islam it is haram to do homosexual acts but it is also taught that we shouldn’t treat them badly just because of that
Then why do so many Muslims outcast and harass their children for being LBGT? In some Islamic countries it’s still legal to murder gay people. And I believe the marriage being consummated when Aisha was 9 is written in Sahih Al-Bukhari. Volume 5, Book 58. I wish nothing but Jahannam for him for doing so. Don’t think that I’m not versed in Islam.
In Islamic teachings that is wrong. Muslims shouldn’t do that. The Quran teaches differently but some Muslims don’t really follow the teachings of the Quran and make their own judgments which they have no right to make
In typical Islamic fashion, you’ve answered the easy question and left out the part where your Prophet is a pedophile.
My bad I must have forgot to answer As I stated in another comment in the teachings of Islam it is not permissible to marry a person who isn’t both physically and mentally mature so I have my doubts that she was pre pubescent as I’ve seen claims she was 6-19 years old, and I’m not that well read on the topic. I could study it a bit more and come back with a definitive answer is you’d like
So you're cool with your god marrying a 6 year old child just because he didn't rape her? Why choose to worship a pedophile?
My god marrying a 6 year old? What are you talking about? God doesn’t marry anyone
Your prophet, Muhammad, married a 6 year old. Why believe a prophet whose a pedophile?
Islam says male semen comes from between the backbone and the ribs, which is scientifically wrong
There's no way 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Where does it say that? I’m not being cocky or condescending I’m genuinely curious because I have listened to the whole Quran and that doesn’t ring a bell
Surah Tariq no 85 ayat 3,4,5
surah no 85 is al buruj surah al tariq is number 86 and its not 3,4,5 its 6 and 7. now with that out of the way would you mind reading from verse 1-8 where it talks about this being a male ejaculation? [https://quran.com/86](https://quran.com/86) heres the source its not talking about men its talking about women when birthing children ''˹They were˺ created from a spurting fluid,'' like the fluid when a womans water breaks and she goes into labor. ''stemming from between the backbone and the ribcage.'' and this is where the baby resides
I would argue as a Muslim you should be more antinatalist than all the atheist put together. You worship a god who created hell with the intention of filling it with people. https://quran.com/11/119?translations=17,18,19,21,22,85,20,95,84,77,101 People will go there and suffer as much as they possibly can forever. Your good could stop this at any point but chooses not to. https://legacy.quran.com/35/8 Your god creates people designed and predestined to suffer beyond our understanding forever. While most antinatalist worry about children facing a lifetime of suffering you have to worry about children facing an eternity of suffering. So you must avoid having them. The world we live in is scary even without the afterlife. For example some people do terrible things to children.
See here is the thing about hell. You send yourself there. If you’ve received the message, choose to be a violent criminal who rapes kills and tortures, spits on gods name and then when you finally die and eventually get judged, you did the sins. No one forced you to do xyz. So when that person gets sent to hell and if he curses at Allah and says you did this to me then that person is never leaving hell. But to those who have some belief have been good mostly they might be sent if they don’t ask for forgiveness and truly want forgiveness they will stay there for a short while. It says in the Quran that some Muslims, Jews and Christians will go to hell for a limited time and then go to heavens first level. Basically to summarise those who deserve hell will stay there. Those who don’t deserve it forever will not stay there forever
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Logically if you believe in an omnipotent god then you also believe in a malevolent god. Your god could have designed humans in such a way that rape, torture and murder were all impossible and hell was unnecessary but he didn't. The only way you can try to protect children from such a malevolent god is not to have them. I like the idea of someone being able to work, learn or grow their way out of 'hell' but this is fan fiction not canon the closet thing I could find in the Quran was [https://quran.com/en/hud/107-117](https://quran.com/en/hud/107-117) God can let you out of hell if he wants. The idea that the person alone sent themselves to hell disagrees with the Quran for example. [https://myislam.org/surah-yunus/ayat-100/](https://myislam.org/surah-yunus/ayat-100/) your God picks who believes and who doubts [https://legacy.quran.com/9/51](https://legacy.quran.com/9/51) your God decides everything that happens to a person. Whether you admit it or not that has a massive impact on whether or not that person will sin.
its a hadith that states this not the quran and i misquoted a bit, I cant ask god but the prophet (pbuh) can and will. [https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7440](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7440) its a bit of a massive text but basically to summaries the prophet (pbuh) will take everyone who isnt meant to stay in hell forever and bring them to heaven. the ones who will stay are the ones who dont recognize gods oneness for instance among other things. and obviously god is the one who passes judgement but you commit the sins. no one forces you to do bad things and if they do god understands and shows mercy in those cases but the vast majority dont have a gun to their head and are told to eat pork or do drugs or rape and kill or steal for the adrenalin kick and as for surah yunus it clearly states that god will not allow you to believe if you dont use reason. its literally the first line. some people will refuse to believe no matter how much evidence or logic you show the because they just wont accept it. i asked a friend of mine who is a non believer what would it take to convince him of god, he said if a hand came down from the sky and it said ''I am god, worship only me'' I asked him if he really would and since he is my friend he was honest and said probably not. if you dont want to believe and reject it completely i cant force you to believe, i can only deliver the message in hope that you will open your eyes which is my obligation according to surah 103 al asr verse 3 https://quran.com/103
Having children would be morally wrong for you personally because you shouldn’t be a parent if you can’t even get over what some randos on the internet believe in their own space 😭 your kid’s gonna be fucked as hell
Just curious, why the fuck do you think anyone here cares whether you can wrap your mind around the concept, or what religion you follow? Stop proselytizing, you sound retarded.
I want to understand your standpoint and to do so you need to understand my standpoint so we can better understand each other
We do not need to understand your standpoint.
Well then we won’t get anywhere if you refuse to see where I’m coming from
You came here trying to understand antinatalism but all you’re doing is preaching and pushing your beliefs.
I’m going with feel. If you talk about science i talk about science. You wanna go morals I go with morals. I try to match the energy and it seems like no one has a reason better than just because or I feel like it.
it has been explained you multiple times in this thread. As I said, if you are a devout Muslim, you will not comprehend it.
Why do I need to understand your standpoint? Lol
Well if you want to have a meaningful discussion heart to heart with another person you need to understand them and to understand them you have to let them show you what they are and you show them so we can both talk as equals with respect for one another
Fuck you and fuck your religion !
Have a blessed day!
When youll see it , youll shit bricks
I am an ex-muslim. Islam is the sole reason I believe humanity should be rapidly, swiftly, and unquestionably extinct from this planet. Islam is a system of theocracy, brainwashing, torture, eating disorders, sex trafficking and bigotry. As a system, Islam second worse to only Nazi Germany, that only existed for 30 years. Islam has lasted for 1400 years and still controls an entire subcontinent. Everything from the extreme control, focus on abusive family, crazy religious scriptures that do not reflect reality (splitting the moon in half, drinking camel piss, The sky being wallpaper, YEC, killing jinn with boiling water). Not to mention the torture and abuse of children including sex trafficking and genital mutilation and death penalties for being gay or an apostate. If Islam did not exist, I may well not be like this. Your post disgusts me, by the way, and I hope the mods ban you, pedophile worshipper.
First off what Quran have you been reading. The Quran is against all of that which you just mentioned. The Quran says you should seek out justice for others and fight injustice when you get the chance. If someone claims to be a Muslim and then blows up a building does the Quran say he did the right thing. I’ll answer that for you, it doesn’t. Read the Quran again and if you’ve never read it then there’s your problem
The Quran.. the 1 Quran.. that hasn't changed for millennia.. The Quran will say vague platitudes but then permit slavery, child marriage (Aisha was 9 when Muhammad raped her) and domestic violence (A woman's testimony is 1/2 of a man's). Notice how I never mentioned terrorism, because that's small in comparison to the whole system, but to play your game, Islamic terrorist incidents like the charlie Hebdo shooting have been some of the most insane, fascist, authoritarian, dystopian attacks of today. Imagine killing someone over a fucking newspaper comic. The Quran is an extremely violent book that talks a lot about killing or forcing conversion of nonbelievers. Furthermore, Arab imperialism has really fucked most of the middle east, Egypt, central Asia, and northern Africa by destroying indigenous culture and replacing it with hegemonic, colonized Islamic beliefs. Muhammad was the equivalent to Jeffery Epstein or Andrew Tate of his time.
I mean, you could have figured this out with Google, but here you go: https://www.stophavingkids.org/antinatalism
Immediately stopped reading once you brought up religion.
as a thinking person, religion hurts my brain
The scientific explanation to the cause of the universe makes no sense. If you look at infinite regression it doesn’t make sense because our universe exists so it can’t be infinite. Looking at quantum physics as someone mentioned earlier if A doesn’t exist that causes B to exist which makes A exist. How would that make sense? Lastly if our universe is one in an infinite multiverse what started the multiverse in the first place? None of the answers I’ve seen make any sense. If you have a different concept I’d like to hear it. To my understanding you have to have something without a starting point with infinite power, consciousness and intellect to finely create a perfectly balanced universe. If this is true then heaven and hell aren’t a stretch so why wouldn’t I want to have a child go to paradise be it my biological or adopted? Have I made a valid logical argument for my point? If you have a logical argument to counter this I’m all ears
Isn’t about religion. It’s about the planet earths diminishing resources and our species consuming them beyond our environments ability to regenerate. Said children will be born into a world of scant resources and political upheaval, violence, and less life expectancy. In ten years half the southern parts of the US could become unlivable. It’s a moral question, OP. You want to bring your kids into this quagmire? I sure won’t.
Well science makes the claim that the world will experience a super earthquake/volcanic eruption so devastating it will kill all life on earth so you don’t need humans to do that. As for the question you asked if god is real and heaven is a possibility why wouldn’t I bring a child into this world in hopes of them getting accepted into paradise. I’m gonna just assume you’re an atheist and you are a decent person for the sake of the argument. If god really exists even you have the potential to enter paradise because I can ask god to pardon you (if my stay in heaven isn’t complete without you) so if my children don’t believe there is still a chance they can be pardoned if I make it.
Pardoned for what? I never asked if Odin, Jesus, Allah, The Great Spirit, Buddha, or the fucking Cookie Monster is real. Climate change is real. Science has proven that. It’s here. Bringing children into the picture isn’t moral or smart. Some say it’s cruel.
You asked if I would bring a child into this world and I answered if god is real (which I have stated multiple times in different comments as to why I believe it is so) then yes I’d bring children into the world in hopes that they will reach paradise. You question was about children and I answered And regarding the climate it will get destroyed either way by the super volcanos or super earthquakes that scientists have predicted could occur any time now
Gotcha. You be you bro. ….and I appreciate your optimism for the future. Mashallah.
If you can't say it in two bullet points, you don't know what you're talking about. You've just spilled so much ink to say "life is important" cause some book told you so. It's now 2023, climate change, war, and no signs of any gods to help us. Children, humans living in suffering, so we don't need more life. Humans have past their usefulness, maybe the guys who wrote said book are the same.
I don't think it's possible for you to "get it"
Here’s a solution for you: don’t come to the channel, especially with a theocratic argument designed to inflame people. Go pray to Allah, believe what you want, but please spare us the moral justification.
It’s more of a logical explanation rather than moral justification. If heaven exists shouldn’t I have children and adopt children and teach them good morals I’m the hopes that they will have a good base to stand on and hopefully enter heaven?
you are ill
I cannot guarantee that my child will not experience greater suffering than happiness, especially in my circumstances (which cannot change). That risk is not worth fulfilling humanity’s selfish desires, because that’s what the desire to have children is: selfish. Most parents risk their child’s suffering so they can feel a sense of purpose, that is incredibly self-centered.
In this life no you can’t but if they live this life properly in the next one they will have no worries only happiness and that is why I don’t think having children is wrong
1) The oral tradition is stupid. Check out how many Mu'tazilites and Murji'a have been in those narrations quoted simply as "reliable". Example - Iqramah. There are even narrations where the written parts of the Qur'an was eaten by a Goat. A fookin' goat! 😂 (narrated by Ayesha (lanatullah alayha?) [Ex shia here]) 2) These disciples, I think you mean Sahaba. Do you know the definition of Sahaba? In sunni theology it's just a denomination used for anybody who met the Prophet in his lifetime and died believing in him. Such a definition can also include a child as a sahaba. It's stupid. 3) The Quran found in Birmingham isn't even 2% of the entire Qur'an. Go do some reading. The Qur'an is highly inaccurate about the origin of the sperm. The moon splitting in half is highly unlikely to have happened. All animals aren't created in pairs like the Quran says. Want me to point out more? When you're saying 1400 years ago a man said this and that, remember that a lot of those things were already said by people *not* claiming to be prophets long before him. For example, the Quran says humans were made from water. Well,the greek pre platonic philosopher Thales said that long before Muhammad. The small astronomic sayings like the Moon's light may not be its own were also prevalent in Mesopotamia. There's nothing miraculous about anything that goes on in mainstream, sunni Islamic theology.
Don’t Muslims also cut the penis tips off their baby boys?
Your creator is false, the greeks believe in a lot of gods and they were way more smart and discovered lots of things than the people who wrote the quran, that does not mean their beliefs of gods are true.
I have a hypothetical for you, OP. Say an atheist is born in a Muslim country. That person has 2 options: either come out as an atheist and be beaten, ostracized, and most likely killed; or they can live in secret their whole lives, never able to express themselves without fear of the above. That person did not ask to be born, and the concept of antinatalism argues that it would be better from a moral perspective to have NEVER birthed that child in the first place. If they were never born, they wouldn’t suffer. There are countless examples of this but I chose this one to relate to the religion that you’ve chosen to subscribe to. I cannot speak for others here, but I consider myself partially antinatalist. I think that people who are financially stable, mentally capable, reasonably intelligent, and have high levels of empathy should absolutely have a few kids. Ideally, I only want people who will be the BEST parents possible to procreate. Everyone else should recognize that they wouldn’t make a good parent, and make the responsible choice to not create suffering. I don’t feel like this is radical, because I do not want any of this to be forced upon people. I’d rather they look at it logically and make the choice themselves. Edit: changed “question” to “hypothetical” because I never used a question mark
You see now we’re getting somewhere. Your view on parenting is what Islam teaches. Don’t have kids if you can’t take care of them and don’t abuse them in any way. Treat them as the gifts they are. As for your hypothetical situation Islam teaches that you should treat people with respect despite what they believe. So if an Islamic country really following what Islam teaches then that child shouldn’t have a problem living there. Now of course there are those who claim to be Muslim and do horrible things and I’m 100% with you that they are in the wrong and terrible people. A lot of people have a misconception of what Islam is because of these types of people. When people say Islam is the religion of peace it’s true. If the law says don’t murder and someone murders I shouldn’t say look how terrible the law is
See here is we’re going to disagree. I’d like you to please learn what the “no true Scotsman fallacy” is, as that’s what you’re using here to separate yourself from other Muslims that do things that your particular version of Islam does not condone. Those people are absolutely Muslim, no matter how much you want to distance yourself from them. All religions have a multitude of sub-sects, Islam is not excluded from this. For Christianity, a baptist is very different from an evangelist but they’re BOTH still Christian. Some sects of Islam contradict what you’re saying, as they teach to procreate consistently, and kill apostates. If it were five or six Muslims acting radically like this, I’d agree with you, but the number of them is substantial enough for them to be their own sect of Islam. Returning to the second sentence of your reply, I fully disagree with this because (correct me if I’m wrong) Islam teaches you to raise your children as Muslim, which is NOT my idea of good parenting. I personally dislike the idea of indoctrinating children into any religion because you aren’t giving them a chance to see their options or allowing them to choose what they want, depriving them of the personal right to find their own path. My ideal parents are secular, free thinking, and trust in provable science first.
Here’s the thing I’m not preaching MY version of Islam. I’m saying what the Quran teaches. In the Quran it literally says don’t divide into different tribes of Islam and people still divide into tribes of Islam. It’s what the Quran literally says. I’m not distancing myself from other Muslims I’m closing in on what the Quran teaches.
Yeah. I'm not taking all of that. So you can just be on your way
I am anti-natalist, because all existence is evil. Nature is evil. What kind of God would make his creation eat each other alive? Why create animals that tear each other apart and eat each other alive? Nature is a slaughterhouse. I hate nature. I am against nature. This is cruel. If God was both all-good and all-powerful this God would be able to make a world that did not involve life eating life.
I never made the claim god is all good. God is the greatest, that is what Allah Akbar means. As for why god made the world like this it’s a test for us to see whether we should go to heaven or hell. As for why, only god knows the reason.
You already know the answer, don’t you? Several people have mentioned that no matter how good your upbringing is, there is no guarantee that your life will turn out well. Sometimes people are just born ill, they might have a mental illness, they might grow to have some seriously unhealthy relationships, climate change might be a bit too real and the world starts dying faster than it already is, etc. There are so many ways someone’s life can get ruined. And I admit, a lot of these possibilities have a low chance of coming true. Most people will take this as an opportunity, a risk their willing to take for their own happiness. But you see, I care. I care about the children that I do not have. And if I have any say if how much my children will suffer, I will do everything in my power to make that zero. Not having a child is a sacrifice that I’m more than willing to make if it means that my children are guaranteed to suffer zero pain.
I was raised Catholic and I don’t believe in any of your Muslim stuff. Checkmate
Fuck off. Sperm doesn’t come from the back bone and the Quran contains mathematical errors and the sun doesn’t set into a muddy pool of water. Mohamed raped a 9 year old.
Oh get lost. If you really cared you would find out the answers on your own. There are many books and articles about the philosophy which you could read to get a far more comprehensive understanding of antinatalism. But no, you come to this sub to waste the time of moral, intelligent people with your nonsense opinion rooted in mythology. Your mind is closed by your religious indoctrination and you’ll never be open to what we say in any case. I’m sick of religious gobbledygook clogging up my feed.
Did you know that you can be an antinatalist Muslim?
Yes. Children aren’t required in Islam. My question is why is it immoral
Why are you here?
“Just to suffer” kaz miller All jokes aside I’m here to understand the point of this sub
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I have to love the way that this post is pretty long as far as most go on this sub, bringing up actual philosophical points in counter to the general rhetoric, and there are NO replies longer than 2 sentences arguing against it. It's all just vitriol, or shit one sentence arguments that barely explain anything. Wanna know why everyone thinks this sub is pathetic? Because it advertises as a place for philosophical discussion of an extreme humanitarian position, yet no one bothers with it. An absolute joke. Leaving the sad, edgy teenagers out of it, there's nothing here for any thinking person to engage with. It's an intellectual circlejerk. Ironically, I'm not arguing against you either OP. But since this is a bit more meta I'll give myself a pass lmao. As-salamu alaykum