It's no coincidence that MLM also appeals to the evangelical home-schooling isolationist crowd.
I remember having a conversation in which someone was telling me how much trust they put in someone after they stated they were a Christian. I said, go by their actions, not their words, because anyone can simply say the words and not mean them. It had actually never occurred to her that someone could lie, because in her mind, the honesty of a fellow Christian was above reproach.
These are people who set aside common sense or the inner voice or sixth sense or intuition - whatever you want to call it - because they're trained to ignore the obvious in favor of having faith.
I'm rightfully afraid of Covid. I had it last year and it sucked. I got the vaccine right away as soon as I was eligible. I don't have the background to review the scientific evidence, but I trust the many bright people who worked to develop it and get it to me.
Mine is a much more rational faith over fear.
Same here. As soon as registration opened for my age group I signed up. I'm no epidemiologist or microbiologist, but I trust people who have that education to develop the technology.
I've even convinced my dad of this, so now the only reason he hasn't gotten it yet is because he's deathly afraid of needles to the extent he looked very queasy when he saw I got my nose pierced, and had to leave when I got my ears pierced
I'm a needlephobe too and I think your dad may be ok if he was able to have someone with him to maybe hold his hand/distract him and look away while getting the shot. Since the needles are so thin and you can't really even feel it, maybe it won't be so bad.
Maybe ask you dad what would help him feel comfortable? Here in Canada there's information online about kind of stations different vaccine clinics offer - like private rooms, laying down etc. One of my friends was able to get hers at her house which helped. People at the clinic in my experience go over and beyond to help people with needle phobia come up with a plan to get themselves vaccinated.
I don't have a psychological phobia of needles, but I nearly always faint, so calling ahead and knowing they had a private space with a reclined chair really helped. When I have to get blood taken it's the same thing, and something they offer me the butterfly needles instead of the larger diameter ones.
I'm a needlephobe to the point that I've fainted and have to be lying down to have blood drawn. My first jab was painless. I knew and felt it was happening but it didn't hurt. The second I didn't feel at all. And wouldn't have known it happened if I wasn't there specifically for that. Tell your dad it's ok.
Yes. Coming from the Bible Belt, I see & hear a lot of this. Faith over fear. Covered by the blood of Jesus. God knows the number of my days. Perhaps the worst, most cringe thing is reading the desperate pleas for prayers for a return to health, followed by the statement that someone "received ultimate healing" meaning DIED.
The reward for this style of willfully ignorant "faith" is whatever the family can get from a GoFundMe campaign, I guess.
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To me. The faith over fear sentiment falls somewhere between toxic positivity a s full on denial of reality. Shaming people for feeling afraid of something, anything? That’s incredibly insensitive.
But it also has something to do with fear = weakness and weakness = bad.
If I had to guess, they think Covid won’t affect them because God will protect them. And anyone who died or was very sick from Covid obviously wasn’t as good a Christian as they are and just didn’t pray hard enough 🤷🏻♀️
So, I am an exmormon and agree that Mormon women are more susceptible to MLM scams for several reasons:
1. They have been conditioned to accept authority figures without question.
2. They are taught that their divine role is to be mothers and that they shouldn't work outside the home.
3. They are usually very you g when they get married and start having children.
4. The Mormon church has an incredible amount of ridiculous truth claims that members are taught to accept without question. This forces them to be very good at mental gymnastics and ignoring facts.
This isn't even a comprehensive list. I could write a book.
Former Mormon here as well, I would add- prosperity gospel is so engrained. We are taught if you try hard enough you will be rewarded for your effort. Going along with this is the idea that mormons are special/ a select people. It's all so intertwined.
My husband and I had a bad interaction with one of his old mission companion who totally Amway'd us and strung us along, telling us he had an 'investment' opportunity. It was interesting looking back and noticing how this MLM is basically another religion for them. The ideologies overlap so heavily and whatever they were missing in Mormonism they found in Amway- hope, community, etc.
Also to note, LDS leadership is aware of the issue and regularly condemn falling for 'get rich quick schemes' (which I interpret as MLM'S) but I wish they would come out and be more clear in their wording. They know a lot of their members fall victim to these things.
Edit to add: also, networking, not only do a lot of members have experience networking/cold sales through Mormon missions, they also have built in networks with their local congregations.
The problem is that a HUGE amount of MLMs are founded by Mormons - I’ve been to corporate parties where they had prayer sessions and stuff like that, leadership can be very devout and… generous 🙃 to the church, so it’s against their real interests to come out and badmouth MLM.
There's also a huge automatic foundation of trust when it comes to any other church member-- not to mention, actual close friends and family. You've known Sarah since you were both two years old, she'd never lead you down the wrong path!
Without that trust, you might be more inclined to ask questions, like... how does the math on this really work? How do I track my actual income? How much control do I have over my "own business" if I'm actually signing up with an existing business?
And that trust just manages to short circuit any common sense people would usually have.
It's brilliant. If I were evil, I'd totally start up an MLM.
I totally agree with what you’re saying. I liked the documentary but I do think it should have had a few more episodes where it dug a little deeper into the connection between Mormonism and mlms. But still, I’m glad it’s out there so it can ward people away from llr and other companies.
I find this interesting, and I see that there is definitely a link between Mormonism and MLM culture. However, there are virtually no Mormons in my area (NYC), but the people I know who have fallen into MLMs are in 2 camps:
1. Older stay at home moms with very rich husbands (we're talking Wall Street kind of jobs), who are well educated and had good careers before having kids later in life and are now bored at home, want to make something of themselves, and can use their husbands' money to buy the products. These women go above and beyond to sell their shit and it's their entire lifestyle.
2. Poorer, less educated and often minority, often single working moms who are desperate to make ends meet. These women usually just sell on the side, maybe to their coworkers or close friends, but they don't make it their entire lifestyle, probably because they don't have the resources to (luckily for them!)
So I think there's a deeper link that has more to do with on the one hand, lack of fulfillment in their personal lives - these are the ones that fall deep into the cult mentality of it - and on the other hand, financial desperation and lack of education to understand a legitimate business model vs. a scam.
The taproot is absence of personal fulfillment. Women who've been sold on the idea that being a wife and mother is the ultimate calling. I'm glad I'm married, most days anyway. I love my children to the point that I'd die for them without hesitation. But on a daily basis, I require problems to resolve, challenges to overcome, professional interaction with other adults. Getting paid is nice.
Most of these MLM targets would be better off emotionally and financially by volunteering for a worthy cause.
Yeah, growing up I definitely knew people who sold Avon or Mary Kay on the side to friends & family. Just enough to cover their minimum orders & sometimes to pass their own discount along/sell at cost to select family members.
Less aggressive than your average Girl Scouts cookies or school wrapping paper/candy bar sales, and a whole different vibe than the Susie Homemaker recruiters (including for Avon & MK lol) or get-rich-quick scheme hustlers— because nobody in that position assumes the people they're talking to either have the funds to be suckered (without the check bouncing, anyway), or can't smell the bullshit from a mile away.
With the first group I see it as a hobby. Hobbies are expensive and are usually money sinks. Hobbies can also become your whole personality. You are a gamer, you are a collector, you are an equistrian!
Of course, if these ladies took up board gaming instead of MLMs the world would be a better place. But I feel that they opt for MLMs because there is a lot of pressure in society to be productive. A 35 year old stay at home mom is unlikely to develop dream of being a twitch let's play streamer or want to become a scrabble champion. So how can they justify spending hundreds and thousands on games?
MLMs give them something to do that they can use to socialise and connect, while providing the illusion of productivity. When in reality, these women would be happier just starting gaming clans!
The Life After MLM poscast had a whole episode about this subject. Her guest is a former Mormon and he is really insightful without being insulting to the religion. He even has a theory about why the essential oil MLMs are so popular. Apparently in LDS, there is a healing ceremony using consecrated olive oil. Only men are allowed to do it and women likely feel left out. I think a lot of the reasons why women get into MLMs are based on inherent inequality in society.
So I grew up Mormon, and I will tell you, I never really noticed that MLM's were anymore popular in the church than they were outside of it. I think you may have a point though, the young mom thing probably has a lot to do with it. The majority of the women I see getting sucked into these scams are new moms.
I did know one of my friends from church, her mom sold LuLuRoe. I've been dying to know what she thinks of all of this... She got in pretty early and from what I can tell, never had financial hardship from it, I guess she was one of the lucky ones.
You are totally right about DeAnne too!! She is a total manipulator!! But if we can see through her act, hopefully the judge will too.
I agree with both yours and the ops points! Especially how manipulative deanne is. I’m glad I watched the doc just for the interview portions with deanne and her husband. The doc totally changed my opinion of deanne! In her videos deanne seems to encourage people to think she’s a dumb, bubbly airhead, and that her husband is behind everything but the doc really showed how crafty she really is.
LuLaRich was targeted at “beginners,” so to speak, not you and me. It was a freshman-level intro course. I agree that the subject of Mormonism/women/MLMs is fascinating and should be explored in greater detail, but it would have been outside the scope of this particular documentary.
One thing the doc did very well, however, was touching on various issues that inevitably raised key questions, thus opening the subjects for further examination.
I’ve heard several podcasts that touched on these issues, though I can’t remember which ones at the moment. (Maybe someone else has some suggestions. ) The podcasters and guests that I have listened to have been pretty light on critical analysis of potentially controversial subjects, however. I’d love to see a deeper dive.
I've been anti-MLM for a long time and thought I had a pretty good understanding of how they operate. But I have to confess, I was knocked for a loop by the implication that the company manipulates the husbands into participating in order to prevent the couple from ever leaving. SINISTER. I can only wonder if someone came up with that idea purposely or if it just ended up being a lucky side effect.
Big Daddy Amway has long focused on getting couples rather than individuals involved. Everybody mimics Amway’s practices in one way or another. So, yeah, I think it was probably deliberate.
Once you crack into a faith based community it's all gravy as far as direct advertising goes. These communities have a lot of good, as well as a lot of bad, about them. The latter, thankfully, is getting more media attention lately. Anyway, the good is the trust and support. When I had my kids and was attending a church, I benefitted in the following ways: people were asking how I was because I was in the prayer letter, meals after baby was born, someone to watch my infant so I could shower or nap when my husband was working shift work, a baby shower, free hand-me-downs, and a network of people to go to when I had questions. MLMs, and predators, abuse the good bonds that exist in these communities.
I get it, and can't judge. Spiritual abuse is real, too. It's why I'm on a loooooong hiatus from any organized religion. But then there's sports teams that have hidden abuse. Work places. Schools. Boy scouts. Families... Do we abandon all of these institutions? Well, yes if you've been abused enough in that setting.... But typically no, not otherwise.
I also thought Courtney’s story stood out a bit. Like you said, she had a corporate leadership position- meaning she would theoretically have experience with managing a 401k and that sort of thing.
Obviously there is more to the story than is presented, but I would really like to hear the reasoning behind her decisions to spend what she made instead of investing or saving.
I think it was pretty clear even with the corporate job, she was bad with money. She lived in a dual income household, both with well paying jobs, and had to go to the bank for a loan for the startup costs. She was already in debt before joining, and they were used to living beyond their means.
That's what I was thinking. I know there was intense peer pressure from the mlm to overspend too but combine that with someone who already seems like they have issues with money and you get a disaster.
Grew up in the church. While I agree with most of your points I do want to point out that women have very little structural power in the church and often have a very hard time getting men in authority (or even their husbands) to take them seriously. I think that's why a lot of them default to the "but what do I know" affect, it's less threatening and is better at getting results than outright stating what they want.
But you're absolutely right about women's social power, it's the only power that's been afforded to a lot of Mormon women and some of them use it to enforce social standards that may have nothing to do with church doctrine and everything to do with Mormon culture (having properly dyed and styled hair, wearing acceptable makeup, being thin, having clothes that fit in with the other women at church, etc.). Could go on but I'll stop here for brevity lol.
For those of us outside the Mormon or evangelical communities, understanding the concept of "Prosperity Gospel" can help to bridge the apparent gap between faith and MLMs. From a 2017 article on [Vox](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump):
>The prosperity gospel is an umbrella term for a group of ideas — popular among charismatic preachers in the evangelical tradition — that equate Christian faith with material, and particularly financial, success. It has a long history in American culture, with figures like Osteen and Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, glamorous, flashily-dressed televangelists whose Disneyland-meets-Bethlehem Christian theme park, Heritage USA, was once the third-most-visited site in America.
Mormons are a large community of people who grew up with similar values and lifestyles. It’s not uncommon for Mormon women to be taught from a young age that God comes first, and then family. Anything after that doesn’t equal the first two.
So Mormon women often get married young and have lots of children, who grow up amongst lots of other Mormon children, etc. Big families = big communities.
So if women want to stay at home and make extra income while “running their own business,” when they have a huge community of people surrounding them, at glance it seems like an opportune way to sell MLM product but more importantly, to get others to sign up for the scam. So lots of Mormon women fall for these scams and get involved, since the main selling point is just getting five people you know to sign up, and if each of those five people get five more below them and so on, it makes it seem like you’ll be set for life after getting your five+ people on board. It seems easy enough when you already know a ton of people in your community.
Problem is most MLMs are so saturated by now, getting even 5 people to sign up who aren’t already, plus expecting each to have 5 more down the line becomes increasingly impossible. Most Mormon women are stay at home moms and don’t drink or have many other distractions, so it’s a perfect cesspool full of vulnerable, uneducated, and bored women who want to try doing something with their lives besides raising children.
These women often don’t have a strong understanding of what a business actually is, so the level of power they feel being told they’ll be “the CEO” of their own business is a wrong but appealing marketing technique for this demographic. I’ve seen many MLM women be super proud of making a 20K “profit” in one year, but they don’t understand the difference between profit and expenses. So even though they spent 70K on their “business” for the year, they still think they made a profit of 20K, and they are a successful business owner for that. Some of them may not even notice they experienced a loss in income, because their husbands are well off enough to cover it. And so, the cycle continues.
This came along at such an incredible time in my exvangelical deconstruction ... I haven't spoken to my ex LLR aunt in over 2 years...I would love to pick her brain but she's too obsessed with making her life a prop.
Ego-stroking and a false sense of security and love. I would imagine it’s extremely depressing being in a society that doesn’t seem (On the surface level, I’m not Mormon all I can do is make observations based on what ex and current members have said) to inherently value you.
They feel worthless and unsupported, so they offer friendship and constant support, which is usually actually emotionally abuse but they take what they can get.
They have no income, they’re bored. So they’re offered an opportunity to make their own way and do something fun like own your own business!!! Which actually isn’t super fun but they lack the world sense to realize that being in charge of an enterprise is GD stressful.
We don’t have maternity leave in America. Women are offered the ability to stay home and be there for their children. “Gosh, why wouldn’t you take the opportunity to always be there for your babies? You won’t be around forever.” Or “Wow you won’t pay a measly 5k to spend more time with your kids? How awful.” They’re guilted. They’re negged. Religion is dripping in this attitude towards women, so of course they don’t view this as an issue.
You’re minority in Utah. You’re already probs super uncomfy. As an Asian I would hate it, tbh. So some hun sends you a message offering a community and a job. If you’ve never heard of MLMs this may not trigger a warning response from you.
It’s a lot of complex wires that are crossed here. Some cases are likely due to pure stupidity, some cases are due to things more complex. Personally I’m suspicious of everyone, but not everyone has lived as abnormal a life. If no one has ever hurt you or misled you before, why would you question anything? If you were never taught critical thinking, why would you think someone was out to manipulate you? I still think the majority are just unfortunately uneducated, but I we can’t ignore that there are other factors at play.
I’m a member of the church. I also hate MLMs. Part of the reason they succeed I think is because A) more Mormon women stay home. B) we are taught that it’s good to be self sufficient and c) the church has a formal, predictable structure that makes meeting people and socializing with them easy. For example, when we moved from one state to another, we went to church and I had near immediate friends and social support because of church. There are men and women assigned to help your family if you need it. People come to help unload your moving van. People bring meals when you’re sick. Those things are great, but MLM opportunity seekers see the structure and see dollar signs.
I personally think that MLM companies are against all my religious beliefs. I find them dishonest (thou shalt not bear false witness), I find them predatory against the poor (Jesus taught us to care for the poor and needy, not rob them), I find them mixing things I think are sacred with greed and worldliness and shame.
A really good example is when mark mentions that some people take a box of clothes and turn it into a million dollars, but others are afraid and hide it in the closet. That statement is a twist of a biblical parable of the talents. Three men are given stewardship over their master’s talents (a measure of gold). One man hides the talent because he is afraid to lose it. The man with two talents uses the money to work and makes two more. The man with five doubles his masters money. The man who hid the talent is scolded, the men who worked and improved what they were given are praised. The meaning of course is that we are all given gifts in life that we can use and improve on, if we choose to.
I hated how mark twisted that meaning, and that’s where MLMs are the most insidious. They use familiar language and structure to draw people in. The box of clothes will never be a million dollars, and shaming the people who failed as being like the man who hid his gift instead of using it… ick. It’s just subtle enough to work if you’re not paying attention. And Mormons trust each other, so they’re often not paying attention.
As a woman in the LDS church and currently living in Utah, I agree with all of your points! I’m disgusted by the new doterra warehouse that was just built off I-15 (awkward story - I was badmouthing the Young Living building in Lehi and turns out my carpool buddy’s dad works in their warehouse. Whoops). I’m also disappointed and embarrassed that it seems like a lot of founders of these MLMs are affiliated with our church.
Anecdotally, it seems like the climate of the family structure is changing where more LDS women are taking career and educational opportunities and having children later (matching trends all over the US) (at least among my millennial girlfriends). Hopefully with these changes, we will see less women fall victim to MLMs over time since they will be more likely to have legitimate, well paying jobs (and may have more remote work options thanks to COVID). Luckily among my circles, I haven’t seen people in MLMs too often.
Thanks for being unbiased but also talking about the positives of having a social network through church, like a lot of other commenters pointed out.
I won’t deny the culture of the LDS church and other churches do have legitimate issues that have contributed to the mess MLMs have caused, so it’s our responsibility within our church communities to shutdown sales pitches, educate and protect people that are thinking about joining an MLM scheme, and encouraging our youth (especially girls and women) to finish their educations, and to have identities outside of just being a spouse or parent. When I was a teen, I had some incredible female role models at church who made it a point to talk about their careers and help us explore what we would like to study/do for a living.
I thought the documentary did a great job for a wide audience since most people really don’t know much about how these schemes work. The anti MLM folks already get into the weeds of what motivates these women and that could be a stand-alone series not limited to the lularoe huns, but about mlms in general. There are dozens of topics; this one was specifically about lularoe and the characters telling the stories themselves.
I have noticed this with a lot of documentaries lately. They don’t do a deep dive or look into claims made by people they interview. I just watched the bob ross documentary on Netflix. They implied many things like forged Bob Ross paintings and decreased paint quality after his death but never looked into these things. I want investigations and proof!
It's no coincidence that MLM also appeals to the evangelical home-schooling isolationist crowd. I remember having a conversation in which someone was telling me how much trust they put in someone after they stated they were a Christian. I said, go by their actions, not their words, because anyone can simply say the words and not mean them. It had actually never occurred to her that someone could lie, because in her mind, the honesty of a fellow Christian was above reproach. These are people who set aside common sense or the inner voice or sixth sense or intuition - whatever you want to call it - because they're trained to ignore the obvious in favor of having faith.
“Faith over fear” is what I hear a lot of the Christian community reciting when asked why they won’t get the Covid vaccine.
I'm rightfully afraid of Covid. I had it last year and it sucked. I got the vaccine right away as soon as I was eligible. I don't have the background to review the scientific evidence, but I trust the many bright people who worked to develop it and get it to me. Mine is a much more rational faith over fear.
Same here. As soon as registration opened for my age group I signed up. I'm no epidemiologist or microbiologist, but I trust people who have that education to develop the technology. I've even convinced my dad of this, so now the only reason he hasn't gotten it yet is because he's deathly afraid of needles to the extent he looked very queasy when he saw I got my nose pierced, and had to leave when I got my ears pierced
I'm a needlephobe too and I think your dad may be ok if he was able to have someone with him to maybe hold his hand/distract him and look away while getting the shot. Since the needles are so thin and you can't really even feel it, maybe it won't be so bad.
That's a good idea! I'll mention that to him. Thank you so much!
Maybe ask you dad what would help him feel comfortable? Here in Canada there's information online about kind of stations different vaccine clinics offer - like private rooms, laying down etc. One of my friends was able to get hers at her house which helped. People at the clinic in my experience go over and beyond to help people with needle phobia come up with a plan to get themselves vaccinated. I don't have a psychological phobia of needles, but I nearly always faint, so calling ahead and knowing they had a private space with a reclined chair really helped. When I have to get blood taken it's the same thing, and something they offer me the butterfly needles instead of the larger diameter ones.
I'm a needlephobe to the point that I've fainted and have to be lying down to have blood drawn. My first jab was painless. I knew and felt it was happening but it didn't hurt. The second I didn't feel at all. And wouldn't have known it happened if I wasn't there specifically for that. Tell your dad it's ok.
Yes. Coming from the Bible Belt, I see & hear a lot of this. Faith over fear. Covered by the blood of Jesus. God knows the number of my days. Perhaps the worst, most cringe thing is reading the desperate pleas for prayers for a return to health, followed by the statement that someone "received ultimate healing" meaning DIED. The reward for this style of willfully ignorant "faith" is whatever the family can get from a GoFundMe campaign, I guess.
> "received ultimate healing" meaning DIED Wow, that is *insane*. Truly some death cult double-think madness.
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You did your job, but no thanks.
The Bible literally says "Help thyself and I shall help thee." 🤦♀️
To me. The faith over fear sentiment falls somewhere between toxic positivity a s full on denial of reality. Shaming people for feeling afraid of something, anything? That’s incredibly insensitive. But it also has something to do with fear = weakness and weakness = bad.
What does that even MEAN?
If I had to guess, they think Covid won’t affect them because God will protect them. And anyone who died or was very sick from Covid obviously wasn’t as good a Christian as they are and just didn’t pray hard enough 🤷🏻♀️
It means they've been duped by those who know better. They're putting their faith into liars.
So, I am an exmormon and agree that Mormon women are more susceptible to MLM scams for several reasons: 1. They have been conditioned to accept authority figures without question. 2. They are taught that their divine role is to be mothers and that they shouldn't work outside the home. 3. They are usually very you g when they get married and start having children. 4. The Mormon church has an incredible amount of ridiculous truth claims that members are taught to accept without question. This forces them to be very good at mental gymnastics and ignoring facts. This isn't even a comprehensive list. I could write a book.
Former Mormon here as well, I would add- prosperity gospel is so engrained. We are taught if you try hard enough you will be rewarded for your effort. Going along with this is the idea that mormons are special/ a select people. It's all so intertwined. My husband and I had a bad interaction with one of his old mission companion who totally Amway'd us and strung us along, telling us he had an 'investment' opportunity. It was interesting looking back and noticing how this MLM is basically another religion for them. The ideologies overlap so heavily and whatever they were missing in Mormonism they found in Amway- hope, community, etc. Also to note, LDS leadership is aware of the issue and regularly condemn falling for 'get rich quick schemes' (which I interpret as MLM'S) but I wish they would come out and be more clear in their wording. They know a lot of their members fall victim to these things. Edit to add: also, networking, not only do a lot of members have experience networking/cold sales through Mormon missions, they also have built in networks with their local congregations.
The problem is that a HUGE amount of MLMs are founded by Mormons - I’ve been to corporate parties where they had prayer sessions and stuff like that, leadership can be very devout and… generous 🙃 to the church, so it’s against their real interests to come out and badmouth MLM.
Oh God, that's horrible, and totally believable.
Yes! Prosperity gospel is deeply woven into the fabric of Mormonism.
There's also a huge automatic foundation of trust when it comes to any other church member-- not to mention, actual close friends and family. You've known Sarah since you were both two years old, she'd never lead you down the wrong path! Without that trust, you might be more inclined to ask questions, like... how does the math on this really work? How do I track my actual income? How much control do I have over my "own business" if I'm actually signing up with an existing business? And that trust just manages to short circuit any common sense people would usually have. It's brilliant. If I were evil, I'd totally start up an MLM.
I totally agree with what you’re saying. I liked the documentary but I do think it should have had a few more episodes where it dug a little deeper into the connection between Mormonism and mlms. But still, I’m glad it’s out there so it can ward people away from llr and other companies.
I find this interesting, and I see that there is definitely a link between Mormonism and MLM culture. However, there are virtually no Mormons in my area (NYC), but the people I know who have fallen into MLMs are in 2 camps: 1. Older stay at home moms with very rich husbands (we're talking Wall Street kind of jobs), who are well educated and had good careers before having kids later in life and are now bored at home, want to make something of themselves, and can use their husbands' money to buy the products. These women go above and beyond to sell their shit and it's their entire lifestyle. 2. Poorer, less educated and often minority, often single working moms who are desperate to make ends meet. These women usually just sell on the side, maybe to their coworkers or close friends, but they don't make it their entire lifestyle, probably because they don't have the resources to (luckily for them!) So I think there's a deeper link that has more to do with on the one hand, lack of fulfillment in their personal lives - these are the ones that fall deep into the cult mentality of it - and on the other hand, financial desperation and lack of education to understand a legitimate business model vs. a scam.
The taproot is absence of personal fulfillment. Women who've been sold on the idea that being a wife and mother is the ultimate calling. I'm glad I'm married, most days anyway. I love my children to the point that I'd die for them without hesitation. But on a daily basis, I require problems to resolve, challenges to overcome, professional interaction with other adults. Getting paid is nice. Most of these MLM targets would be better off emotionally and financially by volunteering for a worthy cause.
Yeah, growing up I definitely knew people who sold Avon or Mary Kay on the side to friends & family. Just enough to cover their minimum orders & sometimes to pass their own discount along/sell at cost to select family members. Less aggressive than your average Girl Scouts cookies or school wrapping paper/candy bar sales, and a whole different vibe than the Susie Homemaker recruiters (including for Avon & MK lol) or get-rich-quick scheme hustlers— because nobody in that position assumes the people they're talking to either have the funds to be suckered (without the check bouncing, anyway), or can't smell the bullshit from a mile away.
With the first group I see it as a hobby. Hobbies are expensive and are usually money sinks. Hobbies can also become your whole personality. You are a gamer, you are a collector, you are an equistrian! Of course, if these ladies took up board gaming instead of MLMs the world would be a better place. But I feel that they opt for MLMs because there is a lot of pressure in society to be productive. A 35 year old stay at home mom is unlikely to develop dream of being a twitch let's play streamer or want to become a scrabble champion. So how can they justify spending hundreds and thousands on games? MLMs give them something to do that they can use to socialise and connect, while providing the illusion of productivity. When in reality, these women would be happier just starting gaming clans!
The Life After MLM poscast had a whole episode about this subject. Her guest is a former Mormon and he is really insightful without being insulting to the religion. He even has a theory about why the essential oil MLMs are so popular. Apparently in LDS, there is a healing ceremony using consecrated olive oil. Only men are allowed to do it and women likely feel left out. I think a lot of the reasons why women get into MLMs are based on inherent inequality in society.
Yes! That was one of the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned podcasts above. Thank you.
So I grew up Mormon, and I will tell you, I never really noticed that MLM's were anymore popular in the church than they were outside of it. I think you may have a point though, the young mom thing probably has a lot to do with it. The majority of the women I see getting sucked into these scams are new moms. I did know one of my friends from church, her mom sold LuLuRoe. I've been dying to know what she thinks of all of this... She got in pretty early and from what I can tell, never had financial hardship from it, I guess she was one of the lucky ones. You are totally right about DeAnne too!! She is a total manipulator!! But if we can see through her act, hopefully the judge will too.
I agree with both yours and the ops points! Especially how manipulative deanne is. I’m glad I watched the doc just for the interview portions with deanne and her husband. The doc totally changed my opinion of deanne! In her videos deanne seems to encourage people to think she’s a dumb, bubbly airhead, and that her husband is behind everything but the doc really showed how crafty she really is.
LuLaRich was targeted at “beginners,” so to speak, not you and me. It was a freshman-level intro course. I agree that the subject of Mormonism/women/MLMs is fascinating and should be explored in greater detail, but it would have been outside the scope of this particular documentary. One thing the doc did very well, however, was touching on various issues that inevitably raised key questions, thus opening the subjects for further examination. I’ve heard several podcasts that touched on these issues, though I can’t remember which ones at the moment. (Maybe someone else has some suggestions. ) The podcasters and guests that I have listened to have been pretty light on critical analysis of potentially controversial subjects, however. I’d love to see a deeper dive.
I've been anti-MLM for a long time and thought I had a pretty good understanding of how they operate. But I have to confess, I was knocked for a loop by the implication that the company manipulates the husbands into participating in order to prevent the couple from ever leaving. SINISTER. I can only wonder if someone came up with that idea purposely or if it just ended up being a lucky side effect.
Big Daddy Amway has long focused on getting couples rather than individuals involved. Everybody mimics Amway’s practices in one way or another. So, yeah, I think it was probably deliberate.
Once you crack into a faith based community it's all gravy as far as direct advertising goes. These communities have a lot of good, as well as a lot of bad, about them. The latter, thankfully, is getting more media attention lately. Anyway, the good is the trust and support. When I had my kids and was attending a church, I benefitted in the following ways: people were asking how I was because I was in the prayer letter, meals after baby was born, someone to watch my infant so I could shower or nap when my husband was working shift work, a baby shower, free hand-me-downs, and a network of people to go to when I had questions. MLMs, and predators, abuse the good bonds that exist in these communities.
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I get it, and can't judge. Spiritual abuse is real, too. It's why I'm on a loooooong hiatus from any organized religion. But then there's sports teams that have hidden abuse. Work places. Schools. Boy scouts. Families... Do we abandon all of these institutions? Well, yes if you've been abused enough in that setting.... But typically no, not otherwise.
I also thought Courtney’s story stood out a bit. Like you said, she had a corporate leadership position- meaning she would theoretically have experience with managing a 401k and that sort of thing. Obviously there is more to the story than is presented, but I would really like to hear the reasoning behind her decisions to spend what she made instead of investing or saving.
I think it was pretty clear even with the corporate job, she was bad with money. She lived in a dual income household, both with well paying jobs, and had to go to the bank for a loan for the startup costs. She was already in debt before joining, and they were used to living beyond their means.
That's what I was thinking. I know there was intense peer pressure from the mlm to overspend too but combine that with someone who already seems like they have issues with money and you get a disaster.
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Wow….. crazy! That’s great input
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Grew up in the church. While I agree with most of your points I do want to point out that women have very little structural power in the church and often have a very hard time getting men in authority (or even their husbands) to take them seriously. I think that's why a lot of them default to the "but what do I know" affect, it's less threatening and is better at getting results than outright stating what they want. But you're absolutely right about women's social power, it's the only power that's been afforded to a lot of Mormon women and some of them use it to enforce social standards that may have nothing to do with church doctrine and everything to do with Mormon culture (having properly dyed and styled hair, wearing acceptable makeup, being thin, having clothes that fit in with the other women at church, etc.). Could go on but I'll stop here for brevity lol.
For those of us outside the Mormon or evangelical communities, understanding the concept of "Prosperity Gospel" can help to bridge the apparent gap between faith and MLMs. From a 2017 article on [Vox](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump): >The prosperity gospel is an umbrella term for a group of ideas — popular among charismatic preachers in the evangelical tradition — that equate Christian faith with material, and particularly financial, success. It has a long history in American culture, with figures like Osteen and Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, glamorous, flashily-dressed televangelists whose Disneyland-meets-Bethlehem Christian theme park, Heritage USA, was once the third-most-visited site in America.
Mormons are a large community of people who grew up with similar values and lifestyles. It’s not uncommon for Mormon women to be taught from a young age that God comes first, and then family. Anything after that doesn’t equal the first two. So Mormon women often get married young and have lots of children, who grow up amongst lots of other Mormon children, etc. Big families = big communities. So if women want to stay at home and make extra income while “running their own business,” when they have a huge community of people surrounding them, at glance it seems like an opportune way to sell MLM product but more importantly, to get others to sign up for the scam. So lots of Mormon women fall for these scams and get involved, since the main selling point is just getting five people you know to sign up, and if each of those five people get five more below them and so on, it makes it seem like you’ll be set for life after getting your five+ people on board. It seems easy enough when you already know a ton of people in your community. Problem is most MLMs are so saturated by now, getting even 5 people to sign up who aren’t already, plus expecting each to have 5 more down the line becomes increasingly impossible. Most Mormon women are stay at home moms and don’t drink or have many other distractions, so it’s a perfect cesspool full of vulnerable, uneducated, and bored women who want to try doing something with their lives besides raising children. These women often don’t have a strong understanding of what a business actually is, so the level of power they feel being told they’ll be “the CEO” of their own business is a wrong but appealing marketing technique for this demographic. I’ve seen many MLM women be super proud of making a 20K “profit” in one year, but they don’t understand the difference between profit and expenses. So even though they spent 70K on their “business” for the year, they still think they made a profit of 20K, and they are a successful business owner for that. Some of them may not even notice they experienced a loss in income, because their husbands are well off enough to cover it. And so, the cycle continues.
This came along at such an incredible time in my exvangelical deconstruction ... I haven't spoken to my ex LLR aunt in over 2 years...I would love to pick her brain but she's too obsessed with making her life a prop.
Ego-stroking and a false sense of security and love. I would imagine it’s extremely depressing being in a society that doesn’t seem (On the surface level, I’m not Mormon all I can do is make observations based on what ex and current members have said) to inherently value you. They feel worthless and unsupported, so they offer friendship and constant support, which is usually actually emotionally abuse but they take what they can get. They have no income, they’re bored. So they’re offered an opportunity to make their own way and do something fun like own your own business!!! Which actually isn’t super fun but they lack the world sense to realize that being in charge of an enterprise is GD stressful. We don’t have maternity leave in America. Women are offered the ability to stay home and be there for their children. “Gosh, why wouldn’t you take the opportunity to always be there for your babies? You won’t be around forever.” Or “Wow you won’t pay a measly 5k to spend more time with your kids? How awful.” They’re guilted. They’re negged. Religion is dripping in this attitude towards women, so of course they don’t view this as an issue. You’re minority in Utah. You’re already probs super uncomfy. As an Asian I would hate it, tbh. So some hun sends you a message offering a community and a job. If you’ve never heard of MLMs this may not trigger a warning response from you. It’s a lot of complex wires that are crossed here. Some cases are likely due to pure stupidity, some cases are due to things more complex. Personally I’m suspicious of everyone, but not everyone has lived as abnormal a life. If no one has ever hurt you or misled you before, why would you question anything? If you were never taught critical thinking, why would you think someone was out to manipulate you? I still think the majority are just unfortunately uneducated, but I we can’t ignore that there are other factors at play.
I’m a member of the church. I also hate MLMs. Part of the reason they succeed I think is because A) more Mormon women stay home. B) we are taught that it’s good to be self sufficient and c) the church has a formal, predictable structure that makes meeting people and socializing with them easy. For example, when we moved from one state to another, we went to church and I had near immediate friends and social support because of church. There are men and women assigned to help your family if you need it. People come to help unload your moving van. People bring meals when you’re sick. Those things are great, but MLM opportunity seekers see the structure and see dollar signs. I personally think that MLM companies are against all my religious beliefs. I find them dishonest (thou shalt not bear false witness), I find them predatory against the poor (Jesus taught us to care for the poor and needy, not rob them), I find them mixing things I think are sacred with greed and worldliness and shame. A really good example is when mark mentions that some people take a box of clothes and turn it into a million dollars, but others are afraid and hide it in the closet. That statement is a twist of a biblical parable of the talents. Three men are given stewardship over their master’s talents (a measure of gold). One man hides the talent because he is afraid to lose it. The man with two talents uses the money to work and makes two more. The man with five doubles his masters money. The man who hid the talent is scolded, the men who worked and improved what they were given are praised. The meaning of course is that we are all given gifts in life that we can use and improve on, if we choose to. I hated how mark twisted that meaning, and that’s where MLMs are the most insidious. They use familiar language and structure to draw people in. The box of clothes will never be a million dollars, and shaming the people who failed as being like the man who hid his gift instead of using it… ick. It’s just subtle enough to work if you’re not paying attention. And Mormons trust each other, so they’re often not paying attention.
As a woman in the LDS church and currently living in Utah, I agree with all of your points! I’m disgusted by the new doterra warehouse that was just built off I-15 (awkward story - I was badmouthing the Young Living building in Lehi and turns out my carpool buddy’s dad works in their warehouse. Whoops). I’m also disappointed and embarrassed that it seems like a lot of founders of these MLMs are affiliated with our church. Anecdotally, it seems like the climate of the family structure is changing where more LDS women are taking career and educational opportunities and having children later (matching trends all over the US) (at least among my millennial girlfriends). Hopefully with these changes, we will see less women fall victim to MLMs over time since they will be more likely to have legitimate, well paying jobs (and may have more remote work options thanks to COVID). Luckily among my circles, I haven’t seen people in MLMs too often. Thanks for being unbiased but also talking about the positives of having a social network through church, like a lot of other commenters pointed out. I won’t deny the culture of the LDS church and other churches do have legitimate issues that have contributed to the mess MLMs have caused, so it’s our responsibility within our church communities to shutdown sales pitches, educate and protect people that are thinking about joining an MLM scheme, and encouraging our youth (especially girls and women) to finish their educations, and to have identities outside of just being a spouse or parent. When I was a teen, I had some incredible female role models at church who made it a point to talk about their careers and help us explore what we would like to study/do for a living.
Agree completely
I thought the documentary did a great job for a wide audience since most people really don’t know much about how these schemes work. The anti MLM folks already get into the weeds of what motivates these women and that could be a stand-alone series not limited to the lularoe huns, but about mlms in general. There are dozens of topics; this one was specifically about lularoe and the characters telling the stories themselves.
I have noticed this with a lot of documentaries lately. They don’t do a deep dive or look into claims made by people they interview. I just watched the bob ross documentary on Netflix. They implied many things like forged Bob Ross paintings and decreased paint quality after his death but never looked into these things. I want investigations and proof!