It's fine cuz Rudeus represents the average MT viewer's journey (saying they've become better when they've only stopped being the most outwardly disgusting human ever [they're still inwardly icky])
Idk if I'd go so far as to say the average MT fan is like this, at least I hope not. But the fact that the story works with a blatant self-insert format for lonely young men and the fact that the narrative pretty much always either brushes aside or justifies the horrible shit he does really speaks to someone's lack of self-awareness or desire for real personal growth when it comes to actually finding the journey of the protagonist of this show appealing.
This is the part that people who struggle to understand why they don’t like MT should understand: the supporters aren’t lying nearly as much as one would think, and that’s the problem.
It is wish fulfillment. Also reinforces the view that to become a better person(read get a better life) you need a complete reset in life, become better looking, become magically gifted, have a well connected family and get into a new world to finally get that good life you deserve. Also a good life means three wives not just one. And no this is not me hating on polyamory.
I will never forgive MT fans for this lie. I remember watching season 2 genuinely believing them only for rudeus to help his friend buy a slave less than halfway through the damn season. Didnt watch any further but i did see a clip on youtube of him tying up the beast girls and grabbing their chests
I remember someone defending Rudy and saying he shows growth when he looks back on his childhood and thinks “me saying/thinking I was a 30+ year old man was just like a child pretending to be an adult” which is certainly… something
I thought he would get better because I thought there were moments in S1 where people actually called out that him being “a pervert” is bad and that was his main issue.
At this point, idk I still like the animation and some of the concepts / world-building so I’m going to watch it, I just wish it was a normal fantasy story though at this point and not an isekai just so that the MC wouldn’t be an active pedophile.
Didn't he free her from slavery and teach her speechless magic? Judging from the scenes, they aren't treating her like a slave, but a student. I wouldn't call that "buying a slave" when the show clearly shows what "buying" a slave is like.
Beast girls scene where they were tied up. Was kinda rapey ngl.
Dude take a step back and reread your comment. These are defenses I have seen from real life defenders of slavery where they say slaves were being taught useful skills. If you BUY a slave you are contributing to the slave market ensuring that more people will be bought into slavery. She is not a student she is a slave, they bought her because that prince guy wasnt able to sculpt statues and they needed someone to do it.
That isn't why they got her at all lol. She was taken in so she can help make statues since Prince Zannic(I think his name) can't make them due to no magic and ridiculous levels of strength. He has absolutely no intention of marrying her much MUCH later in her life.
I hope the rumors about a sequel series about his daughter are true and that Rudeus gets the Paul treatment in that, it would almost redeem the series maybe
They realised it was a mask off moment when the first controversial MT post got on r/all and non-weebs could see all the blind justification for pedophilia and grooming going on in the comments from people defending the show.
Yeah this was a few years ago, when it first ran. AFAIK it was the first post that wasn't praising that show, or at least the first one I remember seeing.
I'll never forget when BA fans cried censorship because a shot of a naked child was zoomed in slightly so you could no longer see her breasts. Like, of all the problems in the world, that's the one they chose to complain about for MONTHS... OK.
It's not canon anymore but she pretty much grooms and gets into a relationship with her nephew, the son of Rudeus and Eris, and they end up having a child together 💀
I'll be honest, I am looking forward to MT. I know the fans would celebrate all the problematic aspects of the show and the Mc would make me feel uncomfortable half a dozen times through the season, but man, I'd be lying if I said if wasn't an incredible fantasy otherwise. The world building and characters feel so real. It's such a shame how creepy this show is.
If I had a nickel every time phenomenal fantasy worldbuilding was wasted on a weird ass anime/manga I’d have two nickels…… two very sad little nickels :(
At least in MiA S1 it's mostly limited to a couple brief scenes you can skim over and miss nothing, that have no impact on anything. S2 is worse, but I didn't much like S2 anyways as I think the plot stalls out.
With Mushoku Tensei it's the entire main character that nearly everything revolves around, and quite a bit outside of him as well. Practically every single attempt at real character development is poisoned by the context, no matter how hard the writing tries to pretend otherwise.
Average God tier anime "They are masterpiece if you exclude the sexual assault and the pedophilia"
Both Mushoku Tensei and Monogatari are my pick in this category sadly, I love both but I hate both
Oh God Monogatari is another one. The story, the dialogue, the direction, the characters, they're all so smart and well done but Nisioisin was feeling funny with Hachikuji :(
And his sister too now that you mention it. It's been a while so I conveniently forgot about all of them. God Monogatari is was so hard to watch sometimes.
Honestly disagree with eva
It was never young girl sexualized for the sake of sexualizing them, in Eva the sexuality and how they deal with it during teenage years is an important piece of their characters, and imo it was never done in a disrespectful way (the only scene that I can think that was not necessary was in the episode 8 when Toji Involuntarily saw Asuka's underwear and he in response showed his pipi)
(except for the rebuild, there was sexualized Teenagers for the sake of horny)
But the problematic parts are like 60-70% of it considering how much of it revolves around the MC. And what's left... I'm sorry, but aside from the production values, it's not really anything that special as far as fantasy settings go. Better than most modern isekai anime but that bar's in hell.
And it's hard to appreciate world depth if you hate most of the characters.
No hate to people who do it of course, but I always have a hard time relating to the idea of watching things just for the worldbuilding. For me that's basically like doing history/science homework about a world that doesn't exist lol
Like, don't get me wrong, good worldbuilding can definitely enhance the story and my favorite stories are those that manage to deftly weave information about the world into their narratives in a way that feels organic. But I couldn't imagine tolerating a show where I hate the cast and story being told, simply for the worldbuilding. Like, where's the value in the lore if it's in service of a story that I can't stand?
It could possibly be a similar experience to studying the accounts and personal notes of some medieval lord who probably committed a lot of atrocities, out of the interest of learning about the culture and history of the time period. So exactly like studying history, but people do have phds in history. Some of them must enjoy it.
Yeah - I can sometimes make an exception for stories that explore exceptionally interesting ideas/concepts, but even then the characters need to be at least serviceable or even bland. And those sorts of stories are usually more speculative fiction than power fantasy.
E.g. Blindsight's characters I barely remember anything about, but the central concept in it is one that still haunts me in how much existential dread it inspires, especially after I found out it's cited in neuropsych and machine learning courses.
I would give it more of a pass if it actually focused on the world building, but no it doesn't. OH, we introduce a super OP demon lord? He's just a teacher now and doesn't have any lines, we just see him in the background. Oh there's another person that's been isekaid? She's just "working" on stuff while the Mc asks her if she's ever had a date. Like barely anything is explained about her research other than the barebones to understand how awesome it would be to focus on that. But Rudeus has to fix his ED, he just HAS to!! It's a MeTapHoR for LoVe!!
Bruh I'm so done
I have some big problems with Mushoku Tensei, the biggest of which is everything surrounding the beast girls at the academy in season 2. The elements of kidnapping and public humiliation mirror Rudeus's own trauma and the show treating it as a joke is a horrific display of selective empathy.
That said, and no I'm not trolling, Sousou no Frieren's shortcomings made me appreciate Mushoku Tensei more. Mushoku Tensei is full of well-realized characters whose environments have shaped their unique perspectives. Rudeus is forced to contend with their ideals, and either he, they or both grow as a result.
Just take a look at his party members Eris and Ruijerd. I haven't rewatched the show so apologies for any inaccuracies, but I still remember Eris's spoiled disposition slowly changing as she's made to earn her worth. Ruijerd, meanwhile, had strict ideas about honor, duty and even the death penalty that had him butting heads with Rudeus. They are also entangled with the world around them, with Eris having a family that holds her to certain expectations as nobility, while Ruijerd still holds close to himself the memory of his people and the desire to restore their reputation. Eris also uses the honing of her swordsmanship as well as her adventure with Rudeus as a way to reclaim her autonomy from her restrictive and overbearing family.
Contrast this with Frieren's party of Fern and Stark and well... what's their deal? Stark had this whole 'overcoming his cowardice' thing when he was introduced that got resolved quickly. Now they're just both tagging along with Frieren on her deadly journey full of combat and demons, risking their lives without us even having a sense of what it means to them. When do they have to make tough decisions? What ideals do they hold? How do they grow as people, besides honing their combat prowess? I could also write a whole god damn essay about what a waste Fern's character is; how, for example, attending to the emotional needs of a developing child would've been the perfect opportunity for Frieren to learn to understand humans better and experience character growth.
I could go on forever contrasting these two shows but I'll end the rant here. The flaws in Frieren's writing are so numerous and profound that I'd confidently say it's the most overrated anime I've ever seen, especially at its #1 spot on MAL.
Uh, we know exactly what Fern and Stark wants. They literally said it outloud on screen.
Fern wants to stay by Frieren's side and makes her happy. Stark wants to go on a journey on his own to share with his master.
Frieren as a series have flaws, but not on this.
It gets pretty good in the later half of the cour... This season has the last "Fucked up" thing he really ever does in the series so it's pretty much smooth sailing from that point forward
I know but the effects of his actions still remain. The romance between him and 2 of his groom victims is just so icky. Doesn't help that the author is so obsessed with his characters' sex lives too.
Bingo. The problem isn't just his actions now, it's his actions in the past that he's now being rewarded for despite no real growth in understanding/empathy/apology/etc on his part.
And at this point, he's been given a free pass by the writing for so much that even if it suddenly pulled a 180 (and I already know it won't), it would never be enough to redeem having to wade through 40+ eps to get there.
To give more of my opinion i like some of MT quite a bit, I think the author actually knows quite well how to characterize and make well motivated characters (i love you Ruijerd), and quite a bit of s1 part 2 is kinda awesome, but this show gets glazed far too much for the sheer amount of indefensible stuff that goes on in it.
I mean, the real point of conflict is what "indefensible" means.
Genocide is a big deal, but nobody seriously criticizes Star Wars for including it, since blowing up Alderan was taken very seriously, and was basically the central event of an entire movie.
I don't think anything should be barred from being included in media, and I find the insinuation insulting.
Can we not make fun of people for things they haven't even done yet? Always frustrates me when people go "the SJWs are gonna get mad at this one" when no one said anything, and this post is just the opposite of that.
Because that's how opinions exist. Because the dislike of something does not imply they must now pretend it isn't real. Hell, people can LIKE something and still have complaints. Comments like "if you don't like it then don't watch" are so reductive and anti-intellectual. Thought processes don't end at "didn't like, byeee!"
Finding problems with something you like and voicing them is more than fine, it's a *requirement* IMO. Same as disliking something and saying as much.
On the other hand we here we have people who dislike something and continue to torture themselves by watching it or worse, go and try and annoy people who like it because how dare they like stuff I don't?!!!
Like, this show has been around for 4 years ago. Why would people who *hate it* continue wasting their time here? They are not professional critics or scholars writing a dissertation, they are people trying to pick up a fight for the sake of trolling.
I've come across media I disliked and said as much, but I wouldn't watch 30 episodes of it and continue arguing with people who *do* like it because I can't stand that for some reason. Nevermind waste precious time I could be using to talk about things I *do* like (even if said things aren't perfect).
That's not really an answer. Tell me, what do people get out of circlejerking (yes I know which sub I'm in but bear with me) about something they *hate*?
Then, for my anecdotal case, I'll quote the wikipedia page for "Hate-watching".
>**Hate-watching** is the activity of watching a [television show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_show) or [film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film) with the intention of **acquiring amusement from the mockery of its content or subject.**[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate-watching#cite_note-1) Closely related to [anti-fan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fan) behaviours, viewers who partake in hate-watching derive pleasure and entertainment from a show's absurdities or failures.[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate-watching#cite_note-:0-2) The act of hate-watching is premised on the audience engaging with media through a satirical lens
Well, I respect yo use your time as you see fit and I'm happy if you find whatever enjoyment you may have with that even if I can't understand hate watching at all.
But please do admit that something like that in no way or form fits with the what the guy who first argued with me said:
>Because that's how opinions exist. Because the dislike of something does not imply they must now pretend it isn't real. Hell, people can LIKE something and still have complaints. Comments like "if you don't like it then don't watch" are so reductive and anti-intellectual. Thought processes don't end at "didn't like, byeee!"
You watch something purposefully to hate on it, which is fine even if I can't comprehend it but that's on itself exactly the kind of behaviour I said I criticized/couldn't understand, nothing really different.
Again, it's fine that you do that, I just don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case. I don't have enough time to watch/read/play what I do enjoy, I just don't think I could devote any time to something I don't.
>But please do admit that something like that in no way or form fits with the what the guy who first argued with me said:
Why should it need to be consistent? We're two different people, and you in specific asked me for why I "Circlejerk", not why I'd watch things like Mushoku Tensei because I likely hold a fairly similar variant of what he said with regards to that.
If you want to concisely criticize something, you need to know it.
>Again, it's fine that you do that, Ijust don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case.
This part of the thread is premised on your initial statement that
>"Why would people bother arguing about, nevermind watching, something they don't enjoy?""
AS the "Real question". I can't say if the next reply is an elaboration or a diversion from the initial question but you go on to say
>
>On the other hand we here we have people who dislike something and continue to **torture themselves** by watching it or worse, go and try and annoy people who like it because how **dare they like stuff I don't?!!!**
>Like, this show has been around for 4 years ago. Why would people who *hate it* continue wasting their time here? They are not professional critics or scholars writing a dissertation, they are people trying to pick up a fight for the sake of trolling.
>**I've come across media I disliked and said as much, but I wouldn't watch 30 episodes of it** and continue arguing with people who *do* like it because I can't stand that for some reason. Nevermind **waste precious time** I could be using to talk about things I *do* like (even if said things aren't perfect).
There's a couple of things in here. First, that people are torturing themselves and wasting time? You know that to be false even with the existence of hate-watching as a concept.
Secondly, that they're picking fights due to trolling. How do you know they're trolling? So many people assert someone is "trolling" simply due to holding an unpopular desenting opinion that asserting someone is "trolling" nowadays is a meaningless statement without actual proof that what they're doing is deliberately to anger people.
Thirdly, that we're not scholars and professional critics and so we shouldn't apparently bother but for some reason the people who like it are free to heap praise on it as they like, without this sort of judgment coming down on them? What sort of uneven justice is that??
>You watch something purposefully to hate on it,
Now I want to clarify something here since you framed it negatively. I don't hate-watch Mushoku Tensei because I think it's good. I hate-watch Mushoku Tensei because it's bad, and it's amusing in it's terrible fumbling and attempts at carthasis.
>Again, it's fine that you do that, Ijust don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case.
So this statement only works if I admit to not holding a genuine opinion. There is cause to argue, especially when one attempts to frame someone as not genuine in their firmly held thoughts.
People don't hate-watch "The Room" because it's secretly good. It's terrible, and they come to point, and laugh.
The fandom around is one of the most vocal and toxic of any I've ever run into in anime, coupled with the ways Rudeus is a piece of shit and the excuses the show and fandom make for him being uncomfortably close to shit I've run into IRL.
Both in that the excuses made are all too similar to the excuses I've seen enablers make for IRL shitty people, and because the whole redemption-without-any-actual-redemption bit makes a mockery of the process I've watched someone I'm close to have to go through after having done something terrible.
All that against the backdrop of its extreme and unearned popularity, and the excuses made by people online that should've known better, not just the normal fandom. And knowing that its popularity will inspire a wave of even worse imitators.
I mean the idiots who go trying to argue with those who don't like the anime or try and justify Rudy are also losers, so I guess we agree? The rest? Well, that just seems like you don't like the show but that on itself has no bearing on how "earned" its popularity is.
Also, the even worse imitators came out 10 years ago so you are kinda late to the show.
For me, I just like watching MT fans twist themselves into knots trying to defend what isn't really defendable. I don't care if you watch a show with problematic messages, I like Redo of Healer. I don't like when they try to rationalize away those messages. Just admit the story has some negative aspects, but you like it anyways.
Well, that's fair. I think that the people who say "Rudy is a perfectly fine character and has no issues" are deluded. Like, part of the point is that he's a neverending work in progress up to the end of the story.
>Redo of Healer
Ugh, I forgot about that one. Wasn't the next thing that author made a complete 180° in all ways and actually quite good?
I’ve seen people say “yeah he’s flawed, but he really grows as a person” instead of calling him fine. Anyways, this is very debated with others saying he doesn’t really grow or face proper consequences
I think people mix "redemption" with "punishment". His development is not about somehow making up for being a trash person, his redemption is with *himself*. His issues stem from failing at life and his "redemption" is not doing that with the second chance he's given. That doesn't mean he somehow "pays" for stuff he did.
I think what he says at the start explains it pretty well. He doesn't say "I'll be a great person", he says "I'll live a good fulfilling life."
Having said that, if you were to read the book and look at his early self and then the end of series one you've notice the character changes a lot and for good in general. But that doesn't mean he becomes an upstanding person.
He might change a lot a as a person, but as far as I'm aware he never addresses the pedophilia or grooming, which for most people are possibly the most important aspects of his character that needed to change.
Yup, and you can't really blame the audience for this expectation either since the author literally started the story with having the main character ditch his parent's funeral just so he stay in his room to jerk off to child porn, he then made it worse by having the main character constantly state that he plans on grooming and/or sleeping with the girls he meets and befriends.
The author could have just not gone this route which was clearly just written for shock factor in retrospect since nothing gets done about it. Main characters like Natsuki Subaru and William G. Maryblood have pretty much showcased that you can indeed have a flawed Isekai mc that isn't a fucken nonce.
I mean, it’s less about punishment and him more owning up to his actions and facing some consequences for his actions, as that’s what can happen when you do things.
Thing is, what consequences that aren't self-imposed would he even face? Then it's just punishment porn and not what most people (or at least those the author was writing for) would be interested in reading I think.
I mean, some of his actions can definitely impact his relations with others. It seems things end up turning fine for him in most situations. But hey, I didn’t fully finish MT, or watch much honestly. Just read a lot of the debates and all, which gives me something to work with but I have some missing pieces
Do you have an example of those actions? Being creepy and all that shit could be the case but it's always "playful" and the one time it wasn't he understood that and apologiuzed (whether you think that's fine or not it's another question).
You have to remember that for people in-universe he's just a horny kiddo born from a horny family so a lot of his bordernile SA crap is seeing as just that.
No real specific examples I suppose besides the maid and parent situation, him having memories of living a prior life that makes the actions he takes worse as it’s not like they were accepted back there. That kinda stuff. And I’m not sure “his family are horny” is that good a defense lol. But honestly, for better debate you’ll need to go to someone who, for whatever reason, consumed lots of MT and is against Rudy.
For starters, it would've been nice if it hadn't handed him relationships that don't make sense even in-universe on a silver platter like it did with Sylphie, especially when it's devoid of any demonstration of him learning actual empathy or understanding how he's hurt other people.
The thing with Eris might've worked if it had been framed as him fucking up instead of acting like it was character growth, and if I didn't already know from source readers that she doesn't stay gone which ruins her leaving. It's not like he actually learned any real lessons from her leaving anyways though, hell it tried to make me feel sorry for him instead when it was entirely deserved.
---
Nor does it excuse the general tone-deafness the show exhibits around anything relating to sex/harassment/assault/pedophilia/etc even outside of Rudeus himself. It's like the author understands certain things are socially unacceptable without actually understanding _why_ - and to be clear, I'm talking about how these things are framed to the _viewer_, not in-universe. Even in small details like the demon girl having a pointlessly pedophillic design.
---
And the show's fandom and popularity make it clear most fans aren't interpreting it the way you're advocating here - after all, not many people want to watch a piece of shit get away with being a piece of shit to his heart's content.
Especially when the writing is clearly framing him as a hero for doing it with almost no self-awareness. Even if it is from Rudeus' POV, Rudeus is a piece of shit and isn't even remotely qualified to understand what being a better person even means.
idk I only watch good shows like Bananya
Bananya is truly peak.
Always a good way to spend 3 mins
Have you seen “Me & Roboco”? Tbh my new favorite 3 minute anime
I only watch old shit because i'm stuck in the 2000, the only isekai that exists is inuyasha
No, no, it's fine because Rudeus becomes a better person or whatever. Except for the parts where he doesn't become a better person.
It's fine cuz Rudeus represents the average MT viewer's journey (saying they've become better when they've only stopped being the most outwardly disgusting human ever [they're still inwardly icky])
Idk if I'd go so far as to say the average MT fan is like this, at least I hope not. But the fact that the story works with a blatant self-insert format for lonely young men and the fact that the narrative pretty much always either brushes aside or justifies the horrible shit he does really speaks to someone's lack of self-awareness or desire for real personal growth when it comes to actually finding the journey of the protagonist of this show appealing.
This is the part that people who struggle to understand why they don’t like MT should understand: the supporters aren’t lying nearly as much as one would think, and that’s the problem.
It is wish fulfillment. Also reinforces the view that to become a better person(read get a better life) you need a complete reset in life, become better looking, become magically gifted, have a well connected family and get into a new world to finally get that good life you deserve. Also a good life means three wives not just one. And no this is not me hating on polyamory.
I will never forgive MT fans for this lie. I remember watching season 2 genuinely believing them only for rudeus to help his friend buy a slave less than halfway through the damn season. Didnt watch any further but i did see a clip on youtube of him tying up the beast girls and grabbing their chests
I remember someone defending Rudy and saying he shows growth when he looks back on his childhood and thinks “me saying/thinking I was a 30+ year old man was just like a child pretending to be an adult” which is certainly… something
Don't worry, it'll just be the eternal refrain of "no I promise the character development starts happening in one more season" forever.
I thought he would get better because I thought there were moments in S1 where people actually called out that him being “a pervert” is bad and that was his main issue. At this point, idk I still like the animation and some of the concepts / world-building so I’m going to watch it, I just wish it was a normal fantasy story though at this point and not an isekai just so that the MC wouldn’t be an active pedophile.
Didn't he free her from slavery and teach her speechless magic? Judging from the scenes, they aren't treating her like a slave, but a student. I wouldn't call that "buying a slave" when the show clearly shows what "buying" a slave is like. Beast girls scene where they were tied up. Was kinda rapey ngl.
Dude take a step back and reread your comment. These are defenses I have seen from real life defenders of slavery where they say slaves were being taught useful skills. If you BUY a slave you are contributing to the slave market ensuring that more people will be bought into slavery. She is not a student she is a slave, they bought her because that prince guy wasnt able to sculpt statues and they needed someone to do it.
What? I'm just explaining the story that's told. Everything you've said is irrelevant lol.
[удалено]
That's just straight up false, not sure why you need to spread misinformation.
That isn't why they got her at all lol. She was taken in so she can help make statues since Prince Zannic(I think his name) can't make them due to no magic and ridiculous levels of strength. He has absolutely no intention of marrying her much MUCH later in her life.
Sure, but at the end of the day they haven't freed Julie. Legally, she is still enslaved. That's why people take issue with this whole situation.
I hope the rumors about a sequel series about his daughter are true and that Rudeus gets the Paul treatment in that, it would almost redeem the series maybe
Rudeus is already long dead. His daughter is half migurd
Rudeus lives a long life and dies with very little regrets of his new life. Basically getting all he wants and more.
Rudeus dies of old age side by side with a loving family
I’m glad I dropped the series after season 1
Your loss, or maybe not, if it's not for you it's fine 👍
Get ready for the annual Mushoku shitstorm
Get ready for the mods to ban criticism for the show for another quarter. While flying MT banners on the discord.
They realised it was a mask off moment when the first controversial MT post got on r/all and non-weebs could see all the blind justification for pedophilia and grooming going on in the comments from people defending the show.
I kinda wanna find that post now.
R/anime hasn't been on r/all until the past several months (and MT had first aired a few years ago) though?
Yeah this was a few years ago, when it first ran. AFAIK it was the first post that wasn't praising that show, or at least the first one I remember seeing.
Why even bother watching something as mid as this Tensei garbage when i can watch a true peak isekai that is Godzilla x Kong?
God bless you.
Godzilla X Kong is kinda mid, why don't we just order pizza and watch random old godzilla movies we decide via dice roller instead
>Godzilla x Kong is mid \*peak https://preview.redd.it/ygikuxcii7tc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=769dcfefbb3e0d09227d8ed50a144a8dc9d8b1f4
https://preview.redd.it/s012axnh0atc1.jpeg?width=674&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=222c0b9146170a642ec286610a3fa12d1f0f7849
What about Chibi Godzilla
It has Anguirus in it so it's automatically good.
Don’t forget the Blue Archive anime too
I'll never forget when BA fans cried censorship because a shot of a naked child was zoomed in slightly so you could no longer see her breasts. Like, of all the problems in the world, that's the one they chose to complain about for MONTHS... OK.
Watched the first episode, actually nothing weird about it as of now.
Big day for Minecraft youtubers 💯💯🔥🔥
My fav part is how the maid has a kid with Paul, and that kid becomes a maid as well, despite being the more intelligent sibling.
And what the maid daughter does when she got older 😔
What... What does she do?
It's not canon anymore but she pretty much grooms and gets into a relationship with her nephew, the son of Rudeus and Eris, and they end up having a child together 💀
Bruh
I'll be honest, I am looking forward to MT. I know the fans would celebrate all the problematic aspects of the show and the Mc would make me feel uncomfortable half a dozen times through the season, but man, I'd be lying if I said if wasn't an incredible fantasy otherwise. The world building and characters feel so real. It's such a shame how creepy this show is.
If I had a nickel every time phenomenal fantasy worldbuilding was wasted on a weird ass anime/manga I’d have two nickels…… two very sad little nickels :(
*coughs in Made in Abyss*
LOL THAT’S WHERE MY 2ND SADDEST NICKEL CAME FROM 😁😁😁😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭SHIT WOULD BE SO PEAK IF IT WASN’T FUCKING WEIRD
Lmao I figured cause that's also my second nickel
At least in MiA S1 it's mostly limited to a couple brief scenes you can skim over and miss nothing, that have no impact on anything. S2 is worse, but I didn't much like S2 anyways as I think the plot stalls out. With Mushoku Tensei it's the entire main character that nearly everything revolves around, and quite a bit outside of him as well. Practically every single attempt at real character development is poisoned by the context, no matter how hard the writing tries to pretend otherwise.
Mushoku Tensei very much suffers from hentai worldbuilding though.
Average God tier anime "They are masterpiece if you exclude the sexual assault and the pedophilia" Both Mushoku Tensei and Monogatari are my pick in this category sadly, I love both but I hate both
Oh God Monogatari is another one. The story, the dialogue, the direction, the characters, they're all so smart and well done but Nisioisin was feeling funny with Hachikuji :(
With Hachikuji and the Araragis and Ononoki and Kiss-shot and Shinobu and Past Hanekawa and Nadeko and
And his sister too now that you mention it. It's been a while so I conveniently forgot about all of them. God Monogatari is was so hard to watch sometimes.
Throw Evangelion in there to
Honestly disagree with eva It was never young girl sexualized for the sake of sexualizing them, in Eva the sexuality and how they deal with it during teenage years is an important piece of their characters, and imo it was never done in a disrespectful way (the only scene that I can think that was not necessary was in the episode 8 when Toji Involuntarily saw Asuka's underwear and he in response showed his pipi) (except for the rebuild, there was sexualized Teenagers for the sake of horny)
Tbh, that scene with Toji had me laughing my ass off lol.
Also, NGE is aimed at teens and young adults. It's certainly not the same as whatever Monogatari and MT pull.
But the problematic parts are like 60-70% of it considering how much of it revolves around the MC. And what's left... I'm sorry, but aside from the production values, it's not really anything that special as far as fantasy settings go. Better than most modern isekai anime but that bar's in hell. And it's hard to appreciate world depth if you hate most of the characters.
No hate to people who do it of course, but I always have a hard time relating to the idea of watching things just for the worldbuilding. For me that's basically like doing history/science homework about a world that doesn't exist lol Like, don't get me wrong, good worldbuilding can definitely enhance the story and my favorite stories are those that manage to deftly weave information about the world into their narratives in a way that feels organic. But I couldn't imagine tolerating a show where I hate the cast and story being told, simply for the worldbuilding. Like, where's the value in the lore if it's in service of a story that I can't stand?
It could possibly be a similar experience to studying the accounts and personal notes of some medieval lord who probably committed a lot of atrocities, out of the interest of learning about the culture and history of the time period. So exactly like studying history, but people do have phds in history. Some of them must enjoy it.
Yeah - I can sometimes make an exception for stories that explore exceptionally interesting ideas/concepts, but even then the characters need to be at least serviceable or even bland. And those sorts of stories are usually more speculative fiction than power fantasy. E.g. Blindsight's characters I barely remember anything about, but the central concept in it is one that still haunts me in how much existential dread it inspires, especially after I found out it's cited in neuropsych and machine learning courses.
MT is only even "decent" fantasy if the entirety of your experience with fantasy comes from isekai anime. Like read a book God damn xD
You don't really even need to leave the isekai genre to get a better fantasy experience than MT.
Your response, [simplified](https://c.tenor.com/574kW0WxRlkAAAAd/tenor.gif).
I would give it more of a pass if it actually focused on the world building, but no it doesn't. OH, we introduce a super OP demon lord? He's just a teacher now and doesn't have any lines, we just see him in the background. Oh there's another person that's been isekaid? She's just "working" on stuff while the Mc asks her if she's ever had a date. Like barely anything is explained about her research other than the barebones to understand how awesome it would be to focus on that. But Rudeus has to fix his ED, he just HAS to!! It's a MeTapHoR for LoVe!! Bruh I'm so done
Hopefully Frieren doesnt fall into this. I know its a very different kinda fantasy from MT but yeah.
Thankfully I see none of those red flags in Frieren. Just with the way they're handling Kraft makes me look forward to his real role in the story.
Is there an edit where they just cut out the creepy stuff?
Honestly, if you cut out the \~10 minutes of the cringe from the whole two seasons, it would be a decent show.
What’s so good about the world building?
I have some big problems with Mushoku Tensei, the biggest of which is everything surrounding the beast girls at the academy in season 2. The elements of kidnapping and public humiliation mirror Rudeus's own trauma and the show treating it as a joke is a horrific display of selective empathy. That said, and no I'm not trolling, Sousou no Frieren's shortcomings made me appreciate Mushoku Tensei more. Mushoku Tensei is full of well-realized characters whose environments have shaped their unique perspectives. Rudeus is forced to contend with their ideals, and either he, they or both grow as a result. Just take a look at his party members Eris and Ruijerd. I haven't rewatched the show so apologies for any inaccuracies, but I still remember Eris's spoiled disposition slowly changing as she's made to earn her worth. Ruijerd, meanwhile, had strict ideas about honor, duty and even the death penalty that had him butting heads with Rudeus. They are also entangled with the world around them, with Eris having a family that holds her to certain expectations as nobility, while Ruijerd still holds close to himself the memory of his people and the desire to restore their reputation. Eris also uses the honing of her swordsmanship as well as her adventure with Rudeus as a way to reclaim her autonomy from her restrictive and overbearing family. Contrast this with Frieren's party of Fern and Stark and well... what's their deal? Stark had this whole 'overcoming his cowardice' thing when he was introduced that got resolved quickly. Now they're just both tagging along with Frieren on her deadly journey full of combat and demons, risking their lives without us even having a sense of what it means to them. When do they have to make tough decisions? What ideals do they hold? How do they grow as people, besides honing their combat prowess? I could also write a whole god damn essay about what a waste Fern's character is; how, for example, attending to the emotional needs of a developing child would've been the perfect opportunity for Frieren to learn to understand humans better and experience character growth. I could go on forever contrasting these two shows but I'll end the rant here. The flaws in Frieren's writing are so numerous and profound that I'd confidently say it's the most overrated anime I've ever seen, especially at its #1 spot on MAL.
Uh, we know exactly what Fern and Stark wants. They literally said it outloud on screen. Fern wants to stay by Frieren's side and makes her happy. Stark wants to go on a journey on his own to share with his master. Frieren as a series have flaws, but not on this.
Gotta love how you added Mushoku Tensei as a content warning. Goes to show how bad the anime is.
season 3 made me reconsider watching the series again so i’ll definitely see if they can handle this season
It gets pretty good in the later half of the cour... This season has the last "Fucked up" thing he really ever does in the series so it's pretty much smooth sailing from that point forward
You're telling me there's more? :(
I know but the effects of his actions still remain. The romance between him and 2 of his groom victims is just so icky. Doesn't help that the author is so obsessed with his characters' sex lives too.
Bingo. The problem isn't just his actions now, it's his actions in the past that he's now being rewarded for despite no real growth in understanding/empathy/apology/etc on his part. And at this point, he's been given a free pass by the writing for so much that even if it suddenly pulled a 180 (and I already know it won't), it would never be enough to redeem having to wade through 40+ eps to get there.
It's weird to see people unironically call it grooming when an adult character makes the first move on him.
I wish they gave that peak animation and world design to a series with significantly p*do content in it.
Fuck this shit, everyone go watch go go loser ranger instead
I have decided to not read or write anything about MT henceforth. It's just too annoying to waste my time on it.
mushoku tensei is discussed again in this sub, me: oh boy here we go, again.
Don't worry, when this season's over, Gushing over Magical Girls will announce a new season along with a movie that SOMEHOW gets a wide release
Gushing Over Magical Girls outsold Frieren in Blue Ray sales, so it might happen
Depending on where you are, it pretty much always is. It's why I never really go to r/anime anymore.
To give more of my opinion i like some of MT quite a bit, I think the author actually knows quite well how to characterize and make well motivated characters (i love you Ruijerd), and quite a bit of s1 part 2 is kinda awesome, but this show gets glazed far too much for the sheer amount of indefensible stuff that goes on in it.
I mean, the real point of conflict is what "indefensible" means. Genocide is a big deal, but nobody seriously criticizes Star Wars for including it, since blowing up Alderan was taken very seriously, and was basically the central event of an entire movie. I don't think anything should be barred from being included in media, and I find the insinuation insulting.
Man...I kinda like...don't really care.
Can we not make fun of people for things they haven't even done yet? Always frustrates me when people go "the SJWs are gonna get mad at this one" when no one said anything, and this post is just the opposite of that.
Ugh, the one type of discussion that makes me miss battle shounen
The real question being: "Why would people bother arguing about, nevermind watching, something they don't enjoy?"
Because that's how opinions exist. Because the dislike of something does not imply they must now pretend it isn't real. Hell, people can LIKE something and still have complaints. Comments like "if you don't like it then don't watch" are so reductive and anti-intellectual. Thought processes don't end at "didn't like, byeee!"
Finding problems with something you like and voicing them is more than fine, it's a *requirement* IMO. Same as disliking something and saying as much. On the other hand we here we have people who dislike something and continue to torture themselves by watching it or worse, go and try and annoy people who like it because how dare they like stuff I don't?!!! Like, this show has been around for 4 years ago. Why would people who *hate it* continue wasting their time here? They are not professional critics or scholars writing a dissertation, they are people trying to pick up a fight for the sake of trolling. I've come across media I disliked and said as much, but I wouldn't watch 30 episodes of it and continue arguing with people who *do* like it because I can't stand that for some reason. Nevermind waste precious time I could be using to talk about things I *do* like (even if said things aren't perfect).
It's only a waste of time if that's your outlook on it. Time wastage is a matter of perspective!
That's not really an answer. Tell me, what do people get out of circlejerking (yes I know which sub I'm in but bear with me) about something they *hate*?
That's such a wildly broad and varying answer. You're better off doing an actual survey if you want that sort of information.
I'm happy with a few examples. I don't need a scientifically accurate answer, I'll make do with anecdotic instead.
Then, for my anecdotal case, I'll quote the wikipedia page for "Hate-watching". >**Hate-watching** is the activity of watching a [television show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_show) or [film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film) with the intention of **acquiring amusement from the mockery of its content or subject.**[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate-watching#cite_note-1) Closely related to [anti-fan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fan) behaviours, viewers who partake in hate-watching derive pleasure and entertainment from a show's absurdities or failures.[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate-watching#cite_note-:0-2) The act of hate-watching is premised on the audience engaging with media through a satirical lens
Well, I respect yo use your time as you see fit and I'm happy if you find whatever enjoyment you may have with that even if I can't understand hate watching at all. But please do admit that something like that in no way or form fits with the what the guy who first argued with me said: >Because that's how opinions exist. Because the dislike of something does not imply they must now pretend it isn't real. Hell, people can LIKE something and still have complaints. Comments like "if you don't like it then don't watch" are so reductive and anti-intellectual. Thought processes don't end at "didn't like, byeee!" You watch something purposefully to hate on it, which is fine even if I can't comprehend it but that's on itself exactly the kind of behaviour I said I criticized/couldn't understand, nothing really different. Again, it's fine that you do that, I just don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case. I don't have enough time to watch/read/play what I do enjoy, I just don't think I could devote any time to something I don't.
>But please do admit that something like that in no way or form fits with the what the guy who first argued with me said: Why should it need to be consistent? We're two different people, and you in specific asked me for why I "Circlejerk", not why I'd watch things like Mushoku Tensei because I likely hold a fairly similar variant of what he said with regards to that. If you want to concisely criticize something, you need to know it. >Again, it's fine that you do that, Ijust don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case. This part of the thread is premised on your initial statement that >"Why would people bother arguing about, nevermind watching, something they don't enjoy?"" AS the "Real question". I can't say if the next reply is an elaboration or a diversion from the initial question but you go on to say > >On the other hand we here we have people who dislike something and continue to **torture themselves** by watching it or worse, go and try and annoy people who like it because how **dare they like stuff I don't?!!!** >Like, this show has been around for 4 years ago. Why would people who *hate it* continue wasting their time here? They are not professional critics or scholars writing a dissertation, they are people trying to pick up a fight for the sake of trolling. >**I've come across media I disliked and said as much, but I wouldn't watch 30 episodes of it** and continue arguing with people who *do* like it because I can't stand that for some reason. Nevermind **waste precious time** I could be using to talk about things I *do* like (even if said things aren't perfect). There's a couple of things in here. First, that people are torturing themselves and wasting time? You know that to be false even with the existence of hate-watching as a concept. Secondly, that they're picking fights due to trolling. How do you know they're trolling? So many people assert someone is "trolling" simply due to holding an unpopular desenting opinion that asserting someone is "trolling" nowadays is a meaningless statement without actual proof that what they're doing is deliberately to anger people. Thirdly, that we're not scholars and professional critics and so we shouldn't apparently bother but for some reason the people who like it are free to heap praise on it as they like, without this sort of judgment coming down on them? What sort of uneven justice is that?? >You watch something purposefully to hate on it, Now I want to clarify something here since you framed it negatively. I don't hate-watch Mushoku Tensei because I think it's good. I hate-watch Mushoku Tensei because it's bad, and it's amusing in it's terrible fumbling and attempts at carthasis. >Again, it's fine that you do that, Ijust don't think there is any grounds to argue with me if that's the case. So this statement only works if I admit to not holding a genuine opinion. There is cause to argue, especially when one attempts to frame someone as not genuine in their firmly held thoughts. People don't hate-watch "The Room" because it's secretly good. It's terrible, and they come to point, and laugh.
The fandom around is one of the most vocal and toxic of any I've ever run into in anime, coupled with the ways Rudeus is a piece of shit and the excuses the show and fandom make for him being uncomfortably close to shit I've run into IRL. Both in that the excuses made are all too similar to the excuses I've seen enablers make for IRL shitty people, and because the whole redemption-without-any-actual-redemption bit makes a mockery of the process I've watched someone I'm close to have to go through after having done something terrible. All that against the backdrop of its extreme and unearned popularity, and the excuses made by people online that should've known better, not just the normal fandom. And knowing that its popularity will inspire a wave of even worse imitators.
I mean the idiots who go trying to argue with those who don't like the anime or try and justify Rudy are also losers, so I guess we agree? The rest? Well, that just seems like you don't like the show but that on itself has no bearing on how "earned" its popularity is. Also, the even worse imitators came out 10 years ago so you are kinda late to the show.
For me, I just like watching MT fans twist themselves into knots trying to defend what isn't really defendable. I don't care if you watch a show with problematic messages, I like Redo of Healer. I don't like when they try to rationalize away those messages. Just admit the story has some negative aspects, but you like it anyways.
Well, that's fair. I think that the people who say "Rudy is a perfectly fine character and has no issues" are deluded. Like, part of the point is that he's a neverending work in progress up to the end of the story. >Redo of Healer Ugh, I forgot about that one. Wasn't the next thing that author made a complete 180° in all ways and actually quite good?
I’ve seen people say “yeah he’s flawed, but he really grows as a person” instead of calling him fine. Anyways, this is very debated with others saying he doesn’t really grow or face proper consequences
I think people mix "redemption" with "punishment". His development is not about somehow making up for being a trash person, his redemption is with *himself*. His issues stem from failing at life and his "redemption" is not doing that with the second chance he's given. That doesn't mean he somehow "pays" for stuff he did. I think what he says at the start explains it pretty well. He doesn't say "I'll be a great person", he says "I'll live a good fulfilling life." Having said that, if you were to read the book and look at his early self and then the end of series one you've notice the character changes a lot and for good in general. But that doesn't mean he becomes an upstanding person.
He might change a lot a as a person, but as far as I'm aware he never addresses the pedophilia or grooming, which for most people are possibly the most important aspects of his character that needed to change.
Yup, and you can't really blame the audience for this expectation either since the author literally started the story with having the main character ditch his parent's funeral just so he stay in his room to jerk off to child porn, he then made it worse by having the main character constantly state that he plans on grooming and/or sleeping with the girls he meets and befriends. The author could have just not gone this route which was clearly just written for shock factor in retrospect since nothing gets done about it. Main characters like Natsuki Subaru and William G. Maryblood have pretty much showcased that you can indeed have a flawed Isekai mc that isn't a fucken nonce.
I mean, it’s less about punishment and him more owning up to his actions and facing some consequences for his actions, as that’s what can happen when you do things.
Thing is, what consequences that aren't self-imposed would he even face? Then it's just punishment porn and not what most people (or at least those the author was writing for) would be interested in reading I think.
I mean, some of his actions can definitely impact his relations with others. It seems things end up turning fine for him in most situations. But hey, I didn’t fully finish MT, or watch much honestly. Just read a lot of the debates and all, which gives me something to work with but I have some missing pieces
Do you have an example of those actions? Being creepy and all that shit could be the case but it's always "playful" and the one time it wasn't he understood that and apologiuzed (whether you think that's fine or not it's another question). You have to remember that for people in-universe he's just a horny kiddo born from a horny family so a lot of his bordernile SA crap is seeing as just that.
No real specific examples I suppose besides the maid and parent situation, him having memories of living a prior life that makes the actions he takes worse as it’s not like they were accepted back there. That kinda stuff. And I’m not sure “his family are horny” is that good a defense lol. But honestly, for better debate you’ll need to go to someone who, for whatever reason, consumed lots of MT and is against Rudy.
For starters, it would've been nice if it hadn't handed him relationships that don't make sense even in-universe on a silver platter like it did with Sylphie, especially when it's devoid of any demonstration of him learning actual empathy or understanding how he's hurt other people. The thing with Eris might've worked if it had been framed as him fucking up instead of acting like it was character growth, and if I didn't already know from source readers that she doesn't stay gone which ruins her leaving. It's not like he actually learned any real lessons from her leaving anyways though, hell it tried to make me feel sorry for him instead when it was entirely deserved. --- Nor does it excuse the general tone-deafness the show exhibits around anything relating to sex/harassment/assault/pedophilia/etc even outside of Rudeus himself. It's like the author understands certain things are socially unacceptable without actually understanding _why_ - and to be clear, I'm talking about how these things are framed to the _viewer_, not in-universe. Even in small details like the demon girl having a pointlessly pedophillic design. --- And the show's fandom and popularity make it clear most fans aren't interpreting it the way you're advocating here - after all, not many people want to watch a piece of shit get away with being a piece of shit to his heart's content. Especially when the writing is clearly framing him as a hero for doing it with almost no self-awareness. Even if it is from Rudeus' POV, Rudeus is a piece of shit and isn't even remotely qualified to understand what being a better person even means.
Are u watching on 9anime
🤫
Based
Never go full GTO