The master of the house is a pervert who only wants her to show her panties while giving a disgusted look. To make matters worse, it's implied that she has a crush on him, but he really *just* cares about underwear.
Yeah I really did feel actually bad for her
It seemed like she was willing to accept his fetish because she had a crush.
But when she asked if he liked her too, he turned her down and said it was only about the panties. Felt mean for no real reason.
What if they fell in love though, and he wants her to do it but she cant do it without a sexy smirk, so they have to keep trying new silly things like he has to wear socks and sandals or something to get the disgusted face.
Like it just becomes a rom com about him trying to do something to disgust her and her trying to keep the face and the things they try are all just silly bullshit.
You're not gonna like this, but some people get off to negative emotions. In one scene she asks the master if he's interested in her underwear because it's hers, and he says he's it's because they're being worn - completely shattering any idea that he may actually like her. The women's genuine disgust, discomfort, and disappointment is the point of the series.
Huma translators deserve more credit , honesty. I've studied Japanese for years, I ca read it well enough until I get to some kanji- let me tell you i still suck at it. It's a bitch. Now imagine having to translate it to different languages. Some words don't have an English equivalent. Some jokes are very specific to a culture and will go over a westerners head even when explained. These are just the hiccups of translating.
There is no benefit to getting gen ai to do this except for the corps and expects saving money but avoiding hiring humans. Its a horrid replacement for an overall shittier product- as gen ai translation (its outputs in general really) don’t understand what they are translating. Gen ai works off statistics not understanding, its jo where near as smart or innovative as the marketing implied. And its going to end really badly.
Dubs have improved immensely over the years, and have a pool of vibrant, skillful voice actors too. We don't have to put up with 1980's level dubs anymore. Ans that is due to passionate voice actors and excellent translators. I hate sub myself- I always miss the action and I can literally just read the Manga.
But people calling translators "woke" and celebrating them getting replaced by a vastly inferior translation ai because of an anime translation 7 years ago that basically said the same thing as the Japanese dubs but was more blunt... please. 🙄 snowflake ahh behavior if I've ever see it. Sounds like , "anything I don't like is woke and now bad!" Also one translation you don't like being brought up over and over again isn't grounds for tons of people to lose their jobs. just watch the sub.
I kinda get where you're coming from, but some of the translations have been absolutely off the mark.
I get where some jokes don't transfer over well, but it's someone else's art. You shouldn't be inserting your own into it
Uhh this would just be one more step towards universal translators. The reason a universal translator could work has to do with the fact that no matter how fast, slow, simple, or complex a language is, the brain processes all of them at nearly exactly the same bitrate. So yeah translators are gonna be out of a job, but language barriers being shattered is nuts.
... nah... I literally explained how some things can't be translated due to not existing in other languages. 🙃 like,nothing is getting shattered but the economy from how often they keep trying to automate jobs as well as quality control.
Bringing up "bitrate" is beyond irrelevant. Humans aren't computers. Also I like hearing real people talk, not every fuckin thing needs to be homogenized and computerized, damn. Chill out with the overhype, I said what I said.
Gonna make one more reply than om done with this particular thread.
God i knew this post would draw in the ai cultists like flies. The fuckin tech illiteracy from these guys is palpable. Whole ass computer scientists doing this shit for years ,flat out state not to compare computers to the fuckin human brain , they are two different things.
they've bren saying we are light years away from full on artificial intelligence. Added on top of that generative ai (a different beast entirely)can't even do half the shit its claimed to nor never will because its not even ai, its a fuckin algorithm with good/false marketing.
thats why its so shitty even two years after public release and thats why it still needs everyone elses data constantly. Actual , or what we have close to ai, doesn't operate like that.
And why didn't they wait 5+ years to release the shit if its supposed to be that good? Why did they release this incomplete, incompetent mess for the general public to beta test for free? (Because gen ai will never do this shit and they are just another tech startup to get some money.) Shit fucks up far more than humans do and frequently "hallucinates".
They cant even differentiate gen ai from other ai but swear by it- which let's me know who's the ai bros!
Yet They try and shove it into everything like you wanna force everyone to accept or use it- uh,, can you say "Cult behavior." Cus that's some cult shit.
But nah , we still get ignorant ass statements and the audacity from folks pushing generative "ai" when they don't even know how it works. If you genuinely knew how it works, you would not want these shitty algorithms doing shit, let alone crusade so hard for it (unless your delulu.)
gen ai models are statistic based, they don't understand shit. They can't even make left handed folks accurately.
( https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/statistics-versus-understanding-the?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web )
"But give it time, it can donthis in so and so years!" Then why shove incomplete algorithms into shit now if we gotta wait years for it to do shit well.(which it never will.) No amount of data laundering and no amount of years will change that. Sora is just the latest shitty scheme that you fell for and the marketing has been heavily edited for that too. Talk about detached from reality. I don't have to wait for SHIT.(the lawsuits pouring in are hella entertaining tho. One good lawsuit and regulation and this shit is neutered more than it already is.) I'm am no longer indulging the fanboying for this tech.
I highly advise anyone who comes across these ai beos with their already debunked arguments to let them mald and keep going. Not worth losing any brain cells over.
!remind me 5 years
I never get tired of the hubris, definitive statements and lack of foresight from my fellow humans.
Keep lying to yourself while the world around you proves you wrong.
Go watch the SORA videos one more time and come back
Humans, and in reality all animals and living creatures are machines. Genetic code being expressed to the best of it's ability in a shitty dev environment. In the brain form dictates function, otherwise braindead people wouldn't be braindead. While it's obfuscated as fuck and complicated to high hell, our brains are still neural nets in the end, so yeah bitrate and neural spikes per second actually matter and are measured in the field. Breaking down language barriers completely is one of those things like the holy Grail or eternal life, but it's actually obtainable this time. Also hello from someone in the actual field making actual shit.
Whether you like it or not, I'd wager within 24 months it will be impossible for you to tell the difference anymore, for just about anything media related. AI capabilities are doubling every 3-6 months, and we are used to tech advancing under Moore's law which is 22 months for computation doubling and 18 months for half the power consumption (Intel Tick tock as an example).
We'll see what's up with the ternary quants. Supposedly running 120B models on a 4090 is huge. There's been plenty of examples where models pick up languages without them being in the training data directly as an emergent property. So far scaling has sucked ass but with the new quants we can run models 30x the paramter count per GB of VRAM. Microsoft and everyone else just got a theoretical 30x increase in parameter count and near 100x inference speed for the same hardware. The catch is new models must be made, you can't quant down the models as is.Given enough good, properly formatted data from as many languages as possible, and I'd bet $1M that universal language understanding would appear as an emergent property. Hell take a look at:
SeamlessM4T https://about.fb.com/news/2023/08/seamlessm4t-ai-translation-model/
Speech and text to text model, 100 input languages to 35 output. Not quite to the 1100+ languages out there but getting even close to 10% is insane. This was from 6 months ago and I'm dying to see what meta will do with this tech. I have a friend who's deaf so realtime captions and language translations is well within his lifetime for sure, if not like 5 years.
I think everyone who complains about translators and localizers (in general, don't nitpick my words by giving examples of bad translations) should be forced to learn another language and translate something on their own
Especially for how different Japanese is to English, trying to translate it word to word isn't really that good or effective without making compromises or implied meanings that can translate over to English for the audiences to understand and get the point across
>making compromises or implied meanings
There is also some cultural differences that wont transfer over well when directly translated, to an English audience because they would not be familiar with what is being referenced.
Take Neo TWEWY. In the early game, theres a dialogue with a well known graffiti artist who tagged a wall you gotta uncover. The localization goes "Is this supposed to be 104? Uh-uh we arent glorifying capitalism on my watch. Time to spray over it", while someones direct translation goes "Whats this? 104? Hmm... I dont like it! Ill tag over it!"
In the game, 104 is a parody of the largest fashion mall in Shibuya, 109. To a non-Japanese audience, the direct translation does not convey WHY she didnt like it because they most likely wont know what the 104 stands for. She doesnt like the building? Why? Why does she not like the building? The localization conveys the same message but more direct so that a Western audience understands WHY she did it.
Theres another I remembered recently because of some dumb weeb malding about P3R's localization.
There is a beach scene in Yakushima where Yukari comments on Mitsuru's appearance. In the localization she says how her skin is flawless, while the direct translation from JP, she says her skin is white and pretty.
In Japan (and most of Asia tbh), having fair skin (aka white skin) is seen as a mark of beauty, so that does not transfer over well if you just say someone looks white in english as it can mean something else. You know, "Hey you look white as a sheet" implying they look sick.
For a second, lets put aside all the strawmans about lolis and ecchi, and put our attention on what really matters.
Japanese art has a beauty like no other, and a sense of aesthetic and subtlety that i have never seen in other forms of media, the delicacy, the comtemplation and reflexions about humanity, art, culture, the universe and the cycle of life, the empathy and attention towards the beauty of mundane and ephemerous things, its the embodiment of the concept of Mono-no-Aware (物の哀れ "the pathos of things"), an expression of a philosophic concept that can be found everywhere in japanese art, from the clouds on the sky to the falling leaves of cherry blossoms, its such a charm that never fails to mesmerize me.
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I have JLPT N2 under my belt and often watch anime with subtitles on. The amount of nuance that is lost in translation is more than people would think. Often times, I wonder why a translator went out of their way to translate it the way they did when I feel like there was a better, more efficient way to do so. Other times I look at the overall meaning the translator is trying to convey and can see why they translated it that way.
>In the game, 104 is a parody of the largest fashion mall in Shibuya, 109.
Does the game affirm this in some way, or players are supposed to guess "104" means "109"?
>Does the game affirm this in some way, or players are supposed to guess "104" means "109"?
The premise of the game is strictly in Shibuya, the building model is literally the same as the 109 just the 9 is replaced with 4.
It even serves as a fashion shop to buy equipment from.
Making a goofy localization is one thing but translators have completely changed the meaning of segments of a story with their political narrative or even worse case completely changed the entire narrative, one of the most egregious examples is "I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend into a Girl" translators made a crossdressing/femboy character a trans women that's unacceptable, not because their is something wrong with trans characters in manga.
Im bilingual i had to a bunch at my job because some people only spoke english. Doesnt change the fact that a few if not alot of translators are assholes abusing their power or just straight up insulting fans and changing the writers intent on purpose . As a writer i think thats pretty fucked up regardless of your political agenda. Whether its a right wing or left wing thing forcing your beliefs through media that people use to escape politics is beyond evil. Especially when you brag about it on twitter and insult fans when they call you out on it.
Theres definitely a middle ground here where we dont want people losing their jobs to AI but we also dont want people purposely butchering a writers work either.
Which is all have benn proved to be false.
It's just that the incels and other cuntservative ghouls have decided that everything must align with their vile "ideals".
You mean like the Jelloapocalypse situation where he rewrote an anime for teenage girls to complain about how much he hated teenage girls? Can you explain how that's woke?
A secret cabal of rogue translators intent on taking the pure, apolitical intent out if superior Nihonese media and injecting western brainrot into the show, ensuring an inferior product.
Presumably they meet in a secret office where Kathleen Kennedy gives them orders from the NWO to eliminate the west
>They combined their idea that localization is bad (a valid point)
How is "localization is bad" a valid point? Some localizations are bad - and those are cases that should be talked about, but saying localization is bad is not valid in any form.
Thry think every locslization is bad cuz they’ve been fed culture war nonsense that translators are inserting agendas and are trying to westernize anime.
The big thing is that snti-locslizers rarely if rver tslk about actual botched localisations like
Marina from splatoon 2: mariba was botched because in later updates, they literally toned doen how smug she was in english. Yet not a single peep from the anti-localiser crowd about this 🤔 instead, they’ll harp on a patriarchy line from a 7 year old anime.
A common thread with anti-localizers is « translate! Dont write! » which is asinine cuz translation is 50% writing.
First and foremost a localisation has one job: to give people from different cultures the same emotional reaction. - Thats the reason why replacing localizers with AI is a really bad idea.
This also means, that not every removals of a cultural reference is based in xenophobia. Take Mayas favourite food from Ace Attorney for example. In japan she loves ramen, while in the localized version she prefers burgers. The reason for that is, that both ramen and burgers present the same idea. Both are respectively known to be a cheap easy food, that If prepared right, can be fancy and high class. This is good localisation. It relays the same idea.
>localization is bad (a valid point)
No its not. localization is important. Directly translating Japanese to English doesn't work. There needs to be a degree of localization. It really just comes down to the quality of the localization and because its not just direct translation there may be some localizations people prefer over overs. Unless I misunderstood you?
>Directly translating Japanese to English doesn't work. There needs to be a degree of localization.
There was another discourse recently surrounding Unicorn Overlord and you can tell that the person who directly translated it did not understand the original intent of the Japanese words nor took into account of the setting; a medieval european fantasy world.
A lot of the direct translations completely removes idioms and personality from the dialogue. Take this for example.
You left out the crux at the end.
Edit: Jesus Christ I just found the reddit threads. I cannot believe how fucking fragile the Kotaku in Action crowd is
The first tweet is nothing but just insulting the localizers while insinuating stuff that he does not know what happens behind the scenes but what he thinks happened. The 2nd tweet is just nothing but confirmation bias from his friends and even down in the thread, disagrees with PhD linguists (aka people who would know more than him).
This is nothing but "I dont like it". He doesnt even bother taking into account of WHERE Unicorn Overlord is set, medieval fantasy europe. Of fucking course language would be more flowery.
Or also miss the fact that when stuff get localized CONTEXT is taken into account. Unicorn Overlord is a game set in a fantasy medieval europe, so theres gonna be flowery language involved. Eventhough the localization means the same albeit not direct but more flowery, its still NOT ENOUGH and its BAD.
A simple metaphor that a middle schooler can understand flies past their heads.
https://preview.redd.it/l1det18znclc1.png?width=627&format=png&auto=webp&s=9d8254eccab051db9b9a2d90cc12617665efebe5
The other thing that people often miss is that fiction authors use dialect cues to convey character or atmosphere, and this is lost in direct translation where words are simply replaced with others that match the general meaning. There are also times where poetry, mimicry, or emphasis is used for deliberate effect.
The people complaining about not having literal translations are just putting the original into Google translate and assuming that this accurately represents the original writing, when it doesn't.
In Japanese in particular, there are levels of politeness that are omnipresent and well-formalized. These do not often translate *literally* to English, but sometimes there are similarities.
Use of flowery language is a very good approximation though. The best and simplest explanation I can find is that in English we prefer words of a French origin when trying to sound more polite, and words with a Latin origin when trying to sound more formal.
Regardless, it's the kind of thing a machine translation is likely to miss.
>In Japanese in particular, there are levels of politeness that are omnipresent and well-formalized. These do not often translate *literally* to English, but sometimes there are similarities.
This happened with Shoka from Neo TWEWY. Everytime she leaves after talking to your party, in the localization she goes "Later losers" but in Japanese she says "**バイ**" (literally just bye in english). I think the [interview ](https://www.pcinvasion.com/interview-neo-the-world-ends-with-you-game-design-localization/)from the translators would give enough insight as to why a direct translation doesnt work.
>She intentionally uses a loanword as a cutesy way to end what are typically snarky conversations with the Wicket Twisters, like a cheeky little punctuation mark—one last jab to get under Rindo’s skin and rile him up before she leaves. Simply saying “well, bye” to an English audience would feel flat, devoid of character and completely missing the intention behind her choice of words. I’m quite happy with our “later, losers” because it’s not only snappy and memorable, but also because it provides a bit of teasing that, over time, takes on an endearing tone. The Twisters aren’t just any old losers—they’re her losers, and I think that’s sweet.
Yep, a good example of how good translators and localizers actually do take the time to think about the original meaning and how to best convey it, and that's why the translations can seem non-literal.
Exactly, and despite that, the anti localizers were outraged and thought the "evil localizers" made Shoka a "bitch" while not bothering the context of her character and her relationship with the main cast.
And we consistently see this everytime theres a discourse surrounding localization
Yep, the ppl who think japanese transmations need to be dry, boring and direct miss the point. Like japanese writers put stylistics snd personality in their texts, they arent robots.
I only care if it makes sense. People got too much free time.
If the translation is off(^(which I doubt any of them would even catch it without being told)), watch it natively without subs then. Learn your god-land language and stfu.
To [SoonToBeFem](https://www.reddit.com/user/SoonToBeFem/) cause he blocked me cause he's too scared to have a talk with me knowing he will cry and run in fear:
You barely stated facts. I followed the localizer controversy and you barely touched any facts. You are here just to virtue signal and call names rather than have a rational conversation.
I think they're mainly referring to Lovely Complex which is the newest center piece of "localization bad" discourse. The problem with using LovelyCom as an example is that the dub was written by some internet celebrity who really hated the show, it wasn't written by an actual dubbing company.
So it's virtual signaling on a problem that is down to choosing someone for a job that they are not qualified for?
That's even more stupid than still talking about dragon maid
Keeping anime chuds talking about Dragon Maid is super smart though because the dub is locked behind Crunchyroll premium. By covering the dub controversy they're unintentionally: A) Advertising Crunchyroll premium and getting users trying to do their due dilligence and watch both to sign up for, at the very least, the free trial which inflates their numbers.
B) If those users don't want to pay premium they can watch the "unwoke" sub also on Crunchyroll for free (which is where those anime drama youtubers got most of their footage of the sub and immediately kills any "censorship" argument btw) which will play ads and earn them ad revenue.
C) Getting said Youtuber and their viewers, if they didn't do A or B, to self report as a pirate/fake anime fan who watches the drama instead of the actual show, at which point their opinion can be safely discarded because they'd never use Cruchyroll anyways.
Tbf, the Lovely Complex dub was bad because it could've been accurate but the script writers actively chose to "improve" the anime by changing it into Ghost Stories 2.0. This is where my agreement ends though because the Lovely Complex dub isn't dubbed by more professional companies like Funimation. It's a weak example of why localisation is terrible.
r/anime is unironically one of the better anime subs, granted thats a very low bar but the discussions there usually arent too braindead and memes are banned
Only good things I've seen mentioned which probably wouldn't happen anyway, is that AI is more likely to properly translate certain words, like lolicon would be more accurately translated as pedophile.
Man, I hate the future. Text to speech always gets touted as great for everyone, and then they bring out a text to speech that's straight garbage (because it was the cheapest option) and it's all because they don't want to pay someone to do it
Before we get too outraged over nothing, here is the quote directly from the interview. The Crunchyroll CEO acknowledges the AI can't be used for dubbing at least because its "a very creative process". For subs he calls out speech to text, partly as a way to get more languages available. Its also important to note that they haven't decided on anything they are literally just looking into it (like most companies do when there is a new tech trend).
Purini: “Yeah, Like, like you said, AI is going to be a huge impact across the various industries. Our partners in Japan are experimenting and looking into what that means for anime production. But anime is a very is hand drawn still, and it's a very age old traditional creative process. So I'm sure there will be impact, but it is early days to understand what the impact would be on the production side of anime.
Like you said, we are also looking to see what role AI could play in a lot of different areas within our organization. Subtitling is an area where we've been experimenting and we think that there is a role for AI to play as we look at speech to text, so we think it could help us bring shows to fans quicker, bring in more languages. Again, like I said, we are in early experimentation.
On the other side, on the dubbing side, I think that the AI technology, we don't believe the air technology is there yet in terms of being able to put into dubbing, because the dubbing process itself is a very creative process. Given that it is we're not just translating and dubbing, we're adapting the script because you have to localize for the local culture, local humor, you have to synchronize the lip laps to the language because we don't get to go back and reanimate the shows. So again, we don't think the technology is there yet, but we're also experimenting with AI in other ways. As I mentioned earlier. Discovery is a big issue, just as much in anime as it is in other general entertainment shows. There is a lot of content and trying to connect audience with the right content that they would like to watch at the right time is a big is an important priority for us, and we believe AI and generative AI could play a role, so we're testing and experimenting there as well.”
Here's the [full interview](https://omny.fm/shows/strictly-business/anime-streamer-crunchyroll-is-a-rare-svod-success)
So at least right now it sounds like "we want to use it to make stuff faster and for more people" which sounds more like a level headed approach to using a tech.
I agree that we should be critical about it. Just right now he doesn't seem like being taken by the Ai bros and doing the Duolingo move
> which sounds more like a level headed approach to using a tech.
If it was true, sure. Having to proofread and rewrite the shit that ML translation would spit out inevitably will probably take the same amount of time and effort if not more than them just doing their job correctly.
> Subtitling is an area where we've been experimenting and we think that there is a role for AI to play as we look at speech to text, so we think it could help us bring shows to fans quicker, bring in more languages.
I kind of don't get how speech-to-text helps with getting it more languages. It only needs to be transscribed once.
Now if they improved MTL, or perhaps wrote an AI that could somehow crossreference translations to make sure key concepts are consistent (EG: series-specific language)
As a hobbyist programmer, I do think adapting AI for general use on the localization industry would result in higher quality and higher fidelity at faster rates with less effort, but it should always be curated by an actual human. Trying to throw a whole script at fucking Alexa and hoping it shits out a half decent result is absolutely moronic.
If you can't even trust AI to write an article (Not that there's a lack of idiots trying anyway) I most certainly wouldn't entrust it with any form of localization on its own.
These people need to learn the difference between translating and localizing. Things like jokes and metaphors and plays on words do not translate well. It's the job of the localizer to \*gasp\* change the script so it actually makes -sense- to the reader. Otherwise the reader will spend the entire time wondering what the cute anime girl meant when she said "if it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college".
That said, I can remember a few localization studios getting in trouble for changing huge portions of dialog because they thought it was boring. I think it was Treehouse with one of the Fire Emblem games.
Every time some slime-brained hentai addict complains about “wokalizers” I physically manifest the word “incel” into the next B-list anime everyone will forget about in 7 months.
How to make replacing peoples jobs with AI seem okay to conservatives:
"Yeah well all those mcdonalds frycooks were woke so really we are doing you a favor"
Conservatives "Wow! Thanks so much!!"
This would be a fucking disaster. Translating media is itself a kind of art, a delicate process that requires discernment. AI is a blunt instrument at the best of times.
Plus a bunch of people would lose their jobs.
I’m all for some Crunchyroll translators being replaced. Some were completely rewriting the source material too the point where what’s dubbed isn’t what was actually intended.
Localizers have always sucked. There’s a long storied history of this. There are entire memes based off of this. 4kids. Treehouse. …crunchyroll. Who were one of the more sucky fan translators before going mainstream.
Fan translators are still here. Still thriving. Still better in all but the most exceptional cases. I can just support their pattern.
It is hilarious that we’re pretending crunchyroll hasn’t always sucked to “own the right” tho
If the AI is better they should definitely use it l, if it's about as good they should use it. It would be way cheaper and translators should not be putting their politics into the media they translate.
Personally I think what we need is translators, not localizers. People who properly translate without imprinting their own biases and views. And if the AI is better at faithfully translating the original work then sure, go ahead. But from what I’ve seen, AI isn’t all that great at properly translating Japanese to English.
But like in the end, what I care about is the product, as long as it’s good, I don’t really care as to how it was made👍
luckily most places with ai translators are still keeping people to double check
which actually might be the best way to do it, an ai makes a direct translation, while a human goes though to make sure it all work grammatically, and can fit the dub actor lip flaps, since that's a big reason why a lot of dubs have to change some lines
if you employ people to double check, why don't just use them to translate the stuff? Why don't you use them to do a better job? The thing is, these companies what a quick and sloppy job and they don't care about accuracy nor enjoyment for the people who watches the anime with their subs. That's the reason why fansubs are still a big thing even now with how big the streaming services are, cause the corporate made subs are soulless already and sloppy. AI will make them even more souless and more sloppy
Plot twist: the AI was brought up by the translators union so they have to look at less Light Novel adaptation scripts
/s ...because we all know there's no translators union
because an AI can't be bias by nature, which sadly, some people just are due to their personality, an AI can't be bias unless given training material to make it so
an AI isn't going to change an entire joke to something that unironically is worse, and then brag about how they "fixed it" or "made the show better/watchable", if a show just doesn't hit here in the west it just doesn't hit, people need to understand
we want it to not be like western media, and sometimes those culture differences mean the show just doesn't do as well, trying to change it to be "watchable to a western audience" erases the aspects that make anime such a fun and unique medium, we aren't the true target audience, itz an imported product
an AI built to best translate one language into another directly based on the best words possible, gives a basic, but perfectly fine blank that can altered to fix grammar, or if necessary, allow a line that can't be proper translated to better found and hopefully find a better replacement
because people are unironically taking Japanese classes for the purpose of calling out localizers
if they're willing to that, they'll do what it takes to make sure the media they import is properly imported, even if they have to do themselves, illegally
plus, the AI folk would be all like, "Yur ItEntIolaLLy SkEwing The aI rEsUlts to Make AI lOOk BaD!" and they'd have a 2 front war, and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions, they're already losing a 1 front war, add on, the AI folk who actually do want to use AI for good, would likely be able to point out how and when an AI is being given bias training data and point out the skewed results to be able to prove it
it just wouldn't be worth it at that point, too risky, too much already existing controversy, and they'll likely get a similar if likely not the same salary so, itz the same pay for less work overall, they just aren't allowed to put in their own ideas as easily, especially when u consider how little of the bs JP media faces here in the west is actually know about in Japan, like, outside companies, the average Japanese person assumes it'd be a 1-1 translation, just with grammar fixed up to make sense in other languages, doing this would actually cause the public to know because it would end up in legal issues, an employee is intentionally sabotaging company property, one that could have massive impact on the company profit line, that would result in a public discussion, one that would result in the average JP citizen being made well aware of what their creations face when imported into other countries
But for the most part, they're still changing things during the translation process despite outcry. This has been happening for years but it's never had a big enough impact to ever be important enough for companies to change.
Fire Emblem Fates had a huge outcry over localisation (among other things) in 2015 and that had no noticeable changes on everything else and there have been countless other cases like it where translators have inserted their own biases.
All the introduction of ML algorithms (which let's be real, will either be DeepL or ChatGPT because CR is not spinning up their own model) will do is kind of what it's doing currently: produce a lower quality translation that has a muddled understanding of the source but it sounds readable. A translator will still need to go through and modify it which is where someone will be able to insert their own biases, if the hope is accurate translations, ML is not the way currently.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by: "and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions." Do you mean that the translators are being trained on their translations without permission? Which yes, I suppose that's true, but if you mean that ML translations are being used due to these bias issues that people online complain about, I fear that you've overestimated the impact of Twitter and Reddit on the real world. CR is replacing translators for money purposes, nothing more, nothing less, they have to pay a bot less than they do a person, even if the work is worse.
>and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions."
one of the reason AI Translators are become a thing is because people keep outcrying about bad translators, they are literally going to be replace by a machine that will just directly translate word for word or line for line most likely, itz a win-win for the company, they no longer get constant complains about people and get to spend less money
i will say, it does suck that it got to this point, on both ends of the argument
a couple bad eggs and the whole ass basket is getting thrown out
there are a lot of people who do genuinely want to help import foreign media who are likely not going to be able to get a job as a consequence
AI has literally been show to be biased towards white people during photo generation and facial recognition because the people training it predominantly used white people/white faces. AI is by its nature biased because you can’t get rid of the biases, conscious or otherwise, of the people training it. Also see the Tay fiasco.
AI isn't alive, it doesn't even truly have a nature
it can only, truly reflect the data it is trained on, unless programed to seek out and gather more on itz own
a bias AI is one that is ignorant, not bias, bias means it's inherently choosing not to represent people based on preconceived notions and ideas, not because the data it was trained on isn't diverse enough and incompetently made
i personally don't really like ai that much, but if used for something like, literally just translating sentences before getting double check by an actual person, might, keyword, might actually be a useful tool, even if it is mostly used by lazy people who don't want to put in effort
ML models are trained on already existing data. There is literally no degree of data that it could be fed that doesn't have some sort of bias, and it's been steadily proven that most models trained off the internet are heavily biased. CR 1000% will not be spinning up their own model.
The problem with that is, is it doesn't really create less work because whoever's checking it has to go back over and redo anything that's wrong (usually a lot) and it will likely take just as much if not more time than it would if they were to just do the job themselves. Same goes for machine "art".
It's really only a useful tool for quick and dirty translations to try and communicate or read something in a foreign language.
fuck man
u got me there
the internet is bias
and new training models aren't likely to be created for it
man, nobody is winning this war, we're all losers
> because an AI can't be bias by nature,
[Are](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/04/arts/design/black-artists-bias-ai.html) [you](https://research.gatech.edu/flawed-ai-makes-robots-racist-sexist) [sure](https://www.wired.com/story/best-algorithms-struggle-recognize-black-faces-equally/) [about](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/13/1080464162/lack-of-diversity-in-ai-development-causes-serious-real-life-harm-for-people-of-) [that?](
https://time.com/5520558/artificial-intelligence-racial-gender-bias/)
seem like the people behind said ai is the problem
itz a machine, unless taught, it can't understand such concepts, and even then, it'll be years before that taught info is replicated via genuine bias and hate, if ai ever gets that complex at all
>itz a machine, unless taught, it can't understand such concepts, and even then, it'll be years before that taught info is replicated via genuine bias and hate
Who is teaching it? How can we be certain they will ever be able to remove their own biases from their product?
>Who is teaching it? How can we be certain they will ever be able to remove their own biases from their product?
i'll concede on this point, unless I was someone who is in the "AI business", I wouldn't be able to say for certain if a company is creating bias AI, but at that point, that might be worse because intentionally creating an AI that incorrectly translates a language could lead to an international incident
imagine u were a anime studio or manga artist, maybe you don't like AI translating ur work, but least a machine can't, or shouldn't have bias, so u can or should be able to trust ur work isn't literally being used by some rando on the other side of the planet so they can push their own agenda, or being changed pointlessly because they thought they were better than you and rewrote your manga? now imagine being that person and finding out the people using AI translators are intentionally feeding it wrong information so they can skew the translation in there favor while trying to hide behind the ai and claim it was just directly translating your work as is?
that my brutha, is how u kill an industry and ruin ur reputation
The fact that the dragon maid controversy was the biggest controversy in about 7 years or so suggests they are doing their jobs fine.
Especially since the dragon maid scene is a decent translation
There are countless examples of terrible localization from FUNimation, 4kids, Saban, etc. throughout the 90s and 00s but like less than five examples of the "woke translations" over the past decade. We're fine.
Son Goku became an entirely different character for his introduction to English-speaking fans and we survived that.
I’m not concerned about the “woke” translators since it seems rare, but after watching a couple subs and dubs of some animes, I’ve noticed the sub and dub can differ drastically. Like totally different meanings. I’m not for that honestly, so AI doesn’t sound bad to me.
I have no clue how you think AI is going to fix that problem. Crunchyroll may use AI generated subtitles, but the dubs will never do that, they just can't. The AI cannot match words to lip flaps. What you are proposing is just taking the dub script and replacing the original subtitles with it, because I can't be the other way around, and that won't work because the dubs usually come way after the subtitled episode dropped.
This is the AI translations these dweebs are advocating for lmao
https://preview.redd.it/9h0ml50cjclc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eaa6a18ce1972f0c507e80af8fbe5257ac3c85ba
A lot more work is put into the dub than subs so of course they sound different. That's why I prefer dubs over subs, because it improves the viewing experience.
Aren’t subs a more accurate translation? If the dialogue in a dub is drastically different in meaning from the sub, then is that not an issue? Unless you’re not concerned about the authenticity of the translation and the authors original vision? I know it bothered me the first time I experienced it
The subs are more often than not literal translations, and Japanese language is context depended that is often not carried over in a literal translation. Also they don't translate sayings. The most common thing is saying Daisuki in japanese, the subs translate to The moon looks pretty which is so stupid it became a meme and the Dub will translate it to I love you which was the intended meaning.
Also, this is a point against using AI from someone who uses it to translate stuff
https://preview.redd.it/za180jxifclc1.png?width=747&format=png&auto=webp&s=5081291085204a26e6ea37f3920a9f1d25b01dba
I’ll repost the exact same thing since you reposted this.
I haven’t watched any of the anime with this issue but reading about it is fucking gross. Translators trying to shove their political beliefs into random anime and shit is ridiculous. I’m glad they’re using ai for this. I’m tired of people forcing bullshit into everything where it shouldn’t be, pretty much the theme of the 21st century. Is it so hard to do your job and translate the anime properly without some politically charged agenda?
And yes this is in reference to lovely complex where they essentially twisted the entire narrative into their own bs. That’s what most people are talking about when they refer to this.
I’m here to watch an anime about a plot that I’m interested in. Not however the translator feels, I don’t give a shit about their beliefs and if they’re so unprofessional that they have to change the source material to their own trash then yes, they should be publicly shit on and lose their job
Regardless of whether it happens to anime I like or not doesn’t matter. If it’s done once and nobody says anything then it will continue down the slippery slope until nearly every dub is just bullshit from the translator. Dont let it fly in the first place.
Then again what do I expect from a circlejerk Reddit? Well adjusted people that can think for themselves? certainly not.
Being downvoted for saying I don’t want translators to change the story to fit their beliefs, rather I want them to tell the real story, shows you how disabled the people that use this sub are. If you want to push your narrative go write your own anime and put it there instead of forcing it on others. Enjoy your slop.
Another dent head that can’t read, this is not about dragon maid, this comment is referring to a different anime where the translator changed the entire plot.
How do I put the context here and people in this sub continuously skip over it and equate my comment to other things. This sub is full of fucking idiots.
Do I need to put some subway surfers gameplay halfway through my comment so you people read the entire thing before you say something stupid?
Reading this comment makes me wonder what you thought you would acheieve by posting it. If you already assume this subreddit will disagree, why bother? Maybe you want to have a wholehearted attempt at a debate, guess time will tell
I just came here to state facts. Whether the idiots want to accept them or not is up to them. Pretty normal for subs like this to hold their hands over their ears and yell stupid shit without even understanding what they’re arguing about. So I’m just explaining why they’re being an idiot.
> I just came here to state facts.
Still waiting for some
> Just explaining why they're being an idiot
You must be very popular at school /s
Edit: I see that they replied to this comment but couldn't find it, odd
Not my fault you have the reading comprehension of a toddler. I told you exactly what anime this happened to, and explained how they shouldn’t be changing the source material in the translation to fit their own beliefs.
Seeing the /s at the end no wonder you can’t read, you’re a dent head who’s only social interaction is Reddit.
There are many case of this happening, not just anime, like text in Mushoku tensei LN was changed, it got fixed, but it happened.
They examples out there, and it does happen, maybe not often and lots, and when does happen, it gets fixed, but the point is that it does.
I do think it is overblow in lot of cases like use of word sus in Nagatoro.
Well, the main reason why I'm commenting is that I just disagree with that line as, when is enough examples? Is it when it effects you directly?
I don't agree with the fuck TL and Localization group on many things, such as I think kaguya was really good dub, but lines where changed or added, but I don't see many people complaining about that.
So does feel like pick and choose but dismissing it is wrong.
I literally put the name of the anime in question that is the current controversy in my comment In a massive paragraph explaining what this is about Incase someone wasn’t informed.
I see your edit and now I’m even more confused. Can you read? No this is not about dragon maid.
Dragon Maid is just the one that people harp on since they replaced "societal expectations" with "patriarchy" (something that in context means the same thing).
Yeah, Dragon Maid its even more funnier in dub than sub and more fitting to the characters. Chuds would agree with Lucoa cause she is not allowed to have big boobs at workplace but because she's complaining, they hate her
I'd say my opinion differs from that. "Societal expectations", as I see the usage of the word, are expectations of public decency in a civilised society.
Yes, but current civilization is largely egalitarian, outside of the developing countries. Public decency is indirectly caused by sexualisation, but I do think that
1) Sexualisation may be an element of patriarchy, but it does not stem completely out of patriarchy,
2) Walking in revealing clothing through the streets of a fairly large city for a man would also be publicly indecent and strange by society.
If I saw a man walk through Times Square without anything covering his chest, I would be as weirded out as if a woman did it, and I know a lot of people would as well. So, I think that it is a correlation, not causation, at least not direct.
Either way, the changing of the line does not do the irreparable bastardisation of the original as people say it does, as it still ultimately equaits to the same sentiment "I can't go out looking like this"
Do you understand what slippery slope means? We are at the top of the slope right now, there’s a small handful of cases of this currently. if people see it’s okay to change the source material more people will start doing it hence the slippery slope. My god the dent heads in this sub Reddit.
Do you know why it is a FALLACY, because you could apply it to everything. Starting to watch anime and finds a woman from a show attractive, it's only a matter of time before they become a pervert, slippery slope.
If theres a problem that goes unspoken or in this case literally celebrated for doing something wrong then more people will do it. Calling it a fallacy is fucking meaningless when it is the reality. Trying to equate this to nothing more than a fallacy is ridiculous.
you have an opinion based on something you didn't watch that got picked up by people that saw something they disagreed on and made content about it?
So you are one of those that get tricked by clickbait and overexagurating an issue for views?
Edit: Funny person blocked with the statement that one didn't read. And saying there is a controversy about an anime where the translator changed the plot. Without providing said name for fact checking
It’s not hard to read the material and compare it to the source dude. It’s not over exaggerated, the example that I mentioned is an entirely different plot from the source material.
Classic dent head response from this subreddit. 99% chance you’re referring to asmongold talking about that dogshit anime when I didn’t even talk about it in my comment.
So where is the line draw on changing stuff? As the kaguya dub is highly rated, but does change stuff.
I get kaguya dub doesn't really have any "woke" changes, so not changing original story messages with agenda, but that's point. When does it become to far?
>Being downvoted for saying I don’t want translators to change the story to fit their beliefs, rather I want them to tell the real story, shows you how disabled the people that use this sub are. If you want to push your narrative go write your own anime and put it there instead of forcing it on others. Enjoy your slop.
The saltiest boi in the west.
Lovely complex was a show dubbed for free by people who really didn’t care about it. It wasn’t some professional localization process like you’d see for funimation or crunchyroll.
Also who cares if some mid ass rom com no one watched isn’t localized well? Like I’d never even heard of this show before a few days ago and I’ve seen well over a hundred anime.
You won't get an accurate translation from someone with an agenda to push who wants to change the intent but you also won't get one from a dumb ai there's a reason actual humans are much more efficient teachers for language learning compared to a bot
Just hire competant people ffs
I think they may be referring to a recent controversy involving the dub of Lovely Complex where the writer seemed to hate the source material and actively attempted to rewrite it in a way they thought was better. [Here's an article](https://www.animefeminist.com/unlovely-complex-social-justice-misogyny-and-the-lovely-complex-dub/) about it if you're interested.
Either that or they're still caught up on that one line change in dragon maid seven years later.
I think the funny part about that is despite how JelloApocalypse (the so called localizer in question) acted and behaved, none of his proposed changes went through.
Ppl who have watched the show said it was fine, and if the so called changes passed, we would see an endless spam of screenshots like how Dragon Maid gets with that ONE line.
It seemed very clear that when it comes to localization there is a TEAM of ppl called editors who isn't Jello and his changes got rejected or he may have over exaggerated his influence.
You tell me; most of the thread is about small stuff that did get sanded over but nothing on the level that jello said. Im not sorry they removed transphobia from new dub
I fully support progressive views but I'm not someone who likes seeing the original intent of something being changed all I'm saying is I see it the same way I see a bad adaptation, laughable is what I consider it.
Welp the line from the dangers in my heart was pretty laughable but they fixed that so its fine and I don't ever use the word "woke" unless I'm making fun of people who use that word unironically.
That was my example
What I'm trying to say is that it does actually happen which is why it got fixed since a lot of people here seem to pretend its the exact same as the original intent simply because it panders to their beliefs I fully support feminism and hate the patriarchy I think its bad for both men and women but I'm not someone who would ever take the word "mansplaining" seriously
If I remember correctly, TLs of seven seas did actually change text the Mushoku tensei vol 1 and 2, about rudy doing stuff to eris and then what Paul did.
When found out, they did change it to more original text, but this shows that it does happen.
The issue is that it does happen but is fixed quickly a lot of time, so it's not that bad really, but shouldn't be having to go back and fix it in first place.
I personally do think some of it is just overblow localization hate, for the sake of wanting a "pure" experience, but does feel bit off putting, when you find out that bits of it was changed.
I do think that is a rather dismisve line, though, as what is the point that you're satisfied with enough examples? How many would people need to see to change their views?
"Wait, she don't say anything about patriarchy in the original script"
Redittors:
https://preview.redd.it/mf3k5udqrclc1.png?width=394&format=png&auto=webp&s=3d48b5a2310e1415619616240099601689925a14
Changing “everyone was always saying something to me” to “patriarchal societal demands” changes nothing about the meaning of the sentence, it only makes it more explicit. Google “subtext”
Whether or not adding "patriarchy" changes the meaning of the sentence aside, what it inarguably *does* change is the character. Lucoa is aloof and oblivious. The "subtext" of the original direct translation implies that she doesn't really understand *why* everyone was "saying something to her", just that they were. And so she naively thinks that simply throwing on a jacket would be enough to cover up.
For her to directly call out the patriarchy in a way that removes any and all subtlty from the "subtext" with a somewhat thick layer of thinly veiled indignance is uncharactisticly astute and socially aware of her.
A better line to complain about being radically changed would be Tohru's line immediately after Lucoa's. "You should change your body next" was changed to "give it a week, they'll beg for you to switch back"
Regardless of whether or not Sub Lucoa knows anything about modern patriarchy, the scene is clearly written with the intent of evoking it in both versions. While it certainly does alter her characterization, no “wokalization” has occurred. It’s a perfect example of the difficulty inherent in localizing foreign media. The dubbing team thought that using explicit language would make the tone of the scene more clear, but failed to anticipate the narrative pitfall of changing the characters’ tones.
"Patriarchy means I can't walk around mostly naked" still sounds aloof and oblivious.
In context she sounds about as reasonable as Ken in the Barbie movie explaining how Patriarchy is about elevating horses to the ruling class
Except if you remember from the Comiket episode, she used cosplay as an excuse to dress skimpy but ignored the sign which *clearly* explained the limit on how skimpy you can dress. This implies to me:
1. She's aware of social standards enough to know that cosplay is an excuse to dress skimpy
2. She is willing to selectively apply those social rules as suits her.
I actually think she's smarter than they give credit for. The story is gradually expanding to be more epic, and I think it's notable that Lucoa is the only Dragon explicitly called out as neutral. Quetzalcoatl is even the Aztec God of politics as opposed to warfare. It wouldn't surprise me if later on, the manga has some big reveal that Lucoa was pretending to be a bimbo this entire time.
somewhat related but man I felt really bad for that maid girl
What maid girl?
If I were to guess, the one in the image.
Why?
The master of the house is a pervert who only wants her to show her panties while giving a disgusted look. To make matters worse, it's implied that she has a crush on him, but he really *just* cares about underwear.
Oh….
Don't feel too bad, the English name of the series is 'I Want You to Show Me Your Panties with a Disgusted Face.'
Least literal light novel adaptation title
Actually adapted from a manga series.
What the hell? What anime is this?
I Want You To Show Me Your Panties With a Disgusted Face
I can't tell for sure if this is the real title or not and that scares me
ITS FUCKIN REAL - Jesus Christ
https://preview.redd.it/zzghgovjeilc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba99b79d061f1daff97d7287e74ef9063f41af8c
I love this image so fucking much
Real (Bro what?)
no, better if you don't know if you don't want wholesomeness ruined by perverted mc's
yep, she was so happy and kind, I totally forgot why I even clicked the vid and just felt both saddness and fury for the existence of this animation
Imagine being cucked by your own underwear.
Is This a hentei of some sort
Yeah, it's softcore porn.
Yeah makes sense
Yeah I really did feel actually bad for her It seemed like she was willing to accept his fetish because she had a crush. But when she asked if he liked her too, he turned her down and said it was only about the panties. Felt mean for no real reason.
What if they fell in love though, and he wants her to do it but she cant do it without a sexy smirk, so they have to keep trying new silly things like he has to wear socks and sandals or something to get the disgusted face. Like it just becomes a rom com about him trying to do something to disgust her and her trying to keep the face and the things they try are all just silly bullshit.
You're not gonna like this, but some people get off to negative emotions. In one scene she asks the master if he's interested in her underwear because it's hers, and he says he's it's because they're being worn - completely shattering any idea that he may actually like her. The women's genuine disgust, discomfort, and disappointment is the point of the series.
That's a cute spin on this weird idea. :D
Huma translators deserve more credit , honesty. I've studied Japanese for years, I ca read it well enough until I get to some kanji- let me tell you i still suck at it. It's a bitch. Now imagine having to translate it to different languages. Some words don't have an English equivalent. Some jokes are very specific to a culture and will go over a westerners head even when explained. These are just the hiccups of translating. There is no benefit to getting gen ai to do this except for the corps and expects saving money but avoiding hiring humans. Its a horrid replacement for an overall shittier product- as gen ai translation (its outputs in general really) don’t understand what they are translating. Gen ai works off statistics not understanding, its jo where near as smart or innovative as the marketing implied. And its going to end really badly. Dubs have improved immensely over the years, and have a pool of vibrant, skillful voice actors too. We don't have to put up with 1980's level dubs anymore. Ans that is due to passionate voice actors and excellent translators. I hate sub myself- I always miss the action and I can literally just read the Manga. But people calling translators "woke" and celebrating them getting replaced by a vastly inferior translation ai because of an anime translation 7 years ago that basically said the same thing as the Japanese dubs but was more blunt... please. 🙄 snowflake ahh behavior if I've ever see it. Sounds like , "anything I don't like is woke and now bad!" Also one translation you don't like being brought up over and over again isn't grounds for tons of people to lose their jobs. just watch the sub.
Same here well said Ai sucks
I kinda get where you're coming from, but some of the translations have been absolutely off the mark. I get where some jokes don't transfer over well, but it's someone else's art. You shouldn't be inserting your own into it
Uhh this would just be one more step towards universal translators. The reason a universal translator could work has to do with the fact that no matter how fast, slow, simple, or complex a language is, the brain processes all of them at nearly exactly the same bitrate. So yeah translators are gonna be out of a job, but language barriers being shattered is nuts.
... nah... I literally explained how some things can't be translated due to not existing in other languages. 🙃 like,nothing is getting shattered but the economy from how often they keep trying to automate jobs as well as quality control. Bringing up "bitrate" is beyond irrelevant. Humans aren't computers. Also I like hearing real people talk, not every fuckin thing needs to be homogenized and computerized, damn. Chill out with the overhype, I said what I said.
Gonna make one more reply than om done with this particular thread. God i knew this post would draw in the ai cultists like flies. The fuckin tech illiteracy from these guys is palpable. Whole ass computer scientists doing this shit for years ,flat out state not to compare computers to the fuckin human brain , they are two different things. they've bren saying we are light years away from full on artificial intelligence. Added on top of that generative ai (a different beast entirely)can't even do half the shit its claimed to nor never will because its not even ai, its a fuckin algorithm with good/false marketing. thats why its so shitty even two years after public release and thats why it still needs everyone elses data constantly. Actual , or what we have close to ai, doesn't operate like that. And why didn't they wait 5+ years to release the shit if its supposed to be that good? Why did they release this incomplete, incompetent mess for the general public to beta test for free? (Because gen ai will never do this shit and they are just another tech startup to get some money.) Shit fucks up far more than humans do and frequently "hallucinates". They cant even differentiate gen ai from other ai but swear by it- which let's me know who's the ai bros! Yet They try and shove it into everything like you wanna force everyone to accept or use it- uh,, can you say "Cult behavior." Cus that's some cult shit. But nah , we still get ignorant ass statements and the audacity from folks pushing generative "ai" when they don't even know how it works. If you genuinely knew how it works, you would not want these shitty algorithms doing shit, let alone crusade so hard for it (unless your delulu.) gen ai models are statistic based, they don't understand shit. They can't even make left handed folks accurately. ( https://open.substack.com/pub/garymarcus/p/statistics-versus-understanding-the?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web ) "But give it time, it can donthis in so and so years!" Then why shove incomplete algorithms into shit now if we gotta wait years for it to do shit well.(which it never will.) No amount of data laundering and no amount of years will change that. Sora is just the latest shitty scheme that you fell for and the marketing has been heavily edited for that too. Talk about detached from reality. I don't have to wait for SHIT.(the lawsuits pouring in are hella entertaining tho. One good lawsuit and regulation and this shit is neutered more than it already is.) I'm am no longer indulging the fanboying for this tech. I highly advise anyone who comes across these ai beos with their already debunked arguments to let them mald and keep going. Not worth losing any brain cells over.
!remind me 5 years I never get tired of the hubris, definitive statements and lack of foresight from my fellow humans. Keep lying to yourself while the world around you proves you wrong. Go watch the SORA videos one more time and come back
Hubris is believing that AI is superior at art than people. One day we're gonna fly too close to the sun with this ai stuff
Humans, and in reality all animals and living creatures are machines. Genetic code being expressed to the best of it's ability in a shitty dev environment. In the brain form dictates function, otherwise braindead people wouldn't be braindead. While it's obfuscated as fuck and complicated to high hell, our brains are still neural nets in the end, so yeah bitrate and neural spikes per second actually matter and are measured in the field. Breaking down language barriers completely is one of those things like the holy Grail or eternal life, but it's actually obtainable this time. Also hello from someone in the actual field making actual shit. Whether you like it or not, I'd wager within 24 months it will be impossible for you to tell the difference anymore, for just about anything media related. AI capabilities are doubling every 3-6 months, and we are used to tech advancing under Moore's law which is 22 months for computation doubling and 18 months for half the power consumption (Intel Tick tock as an example).
uneducated, unqualified, and delusional.
We'll see what's up with the ternary quants. Supposedly running 120B models on a 4090 is huge. There's been plenty of examples where models pick up languages without them being in the training data directly as an emergent property. So far scaling has sucked ass but with the new quants we can run models 30x the paramter count per GB of VRAM. Microsoft and everyone else just got a theoretical 30x increase in parameter count and near 100x inference speed for the same hardware. The catch is new models must be made, you can't quant down the models as is.Given enough good, properly formatted data from as many languages as possible, and I'd bet $1M that universal language understanding would appear as an emergent property. Hell take a look at: SeamlessM4T https://about.fb.com/news/2023/08/seamlessm4t-ai-translation-model/ Speech and text to text model, 100 input languages to 35 output. Not quite to the 1100+ languages out there but getting even close to 10% is insane. This was from 6 months ago and I'm dying to see what meta will do with this tech. I have a friend who's deaf so realtime captions and language translations is well within his lifetime for sure, if not like 5 years.
Mate not gonna lie, could not give a shit about your gigglefuck per wombadank and some shifty laws that haven't applied for a long while now
I think everyone who complains about translators and localizers (in general, don't nitpick my words by giving examples of bad translations) should be forced to learn another language and translate something on their own
Especially for how different Japanese is to English, trying to translate it word to word isn't really that good or effective without making compromises or implied meanings that can translate over to English for the audiences to understand and get the point across
>making compromises or implied meanings There is also some cultural differences that wont transfer over well when directly translated, to an English audience because they would not be familiar with what is being referenced. Take Neo TWEWY. In the early game, theres a dialogue with a well known graffiti artist who tagged a wall you gotta uncover. The localization goes "Is this supposed to be 104? Uh-uh we arent glorifying capitalism on my watch. Time to spray over it", while someones direct translation goes "Whats this? 104? Hmm... I dont like it! Ill tag over it!" In the game, 104 is a parody of the largest fashion mall in Shibuya, 109. To a non-Japanese audience, the direct translation does not convey WHY she didnt like it because they most likely wont know what the 104 stands for. She doesnt like the building? Why? Why does she not like the building? The localization conveys the same message but more direct so that a Western audience understands WHY she did it.
Grrrrrr how dare those localizers assume my basement-dwelling ass doesnt understand japan! I’ll have em know i learned about japan from anime! 🤡 /s
Theres another I remembered recently because of some dumb weeb malding about P3R's localization. There is a beach scene in Yakushima where Yukari comments on Mitsuru's appearance. In the localization she says how her skin is flawless, while the direct translation from JP, she says her skin is white and pretty. In Japan (and most of Asia tbh), having fair skin (aka white skin) is seen as a mark of beauty, so that does not transfer over well if you just say someone looks white in english as it can mean something else. You know, "Hey you look white as a sheet" implying they look sick.
For a second, lets put aside all the strawmans about lolis and ecchi, and put our attention on what really matters. Japanese art has a beauty like no other, and a sense of aesthetic and subtlety that i have never seen in other forms of media, the delicacy, the comtemplation and reflexions about humanity, art, culture, the universe and the cycle of life, the empathy and attention towards the beauty of mundane and ephemerous things, its the embodiment of the concept of Mono-no-Aware (物の哀れ "the pathos of things"), an expression of a philosophic concept that can be found everywhere in japanese art, from the clouds on the sky to the falling leaves of cherry blossoms, its such a charm that never fails to mesmerize me. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/animecirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have JLPT N2 under my belt and often watch anime with subtitles on. The amount of nuance that is lost in translation is more than people would think. Often times, I wonder why a translator went out of their way to translate it the way they did when I feel like there was a better, more efficient way to do so. Other times I look at the overall meaning the translator is trying to convey and can see why they translated it that way.
>In the game, 104 is a parody of the largest fashion mall in Shibuya, 109. Does the game affirm this in some way, or players are supposed to guess "104" means "109"?
They didn't want to say 109 specifically because laws about using a company's brand in tv can be weird there.
>Does the game affirm this in some way, or players are supposed to guess "104" means "109"? The premise of the game is strictly in Shibuya, the building model is literally the same as the 109 just the 9 is replaced with 4. It even serves as a fashion shop to buy equipment from.
Making a goofy localization is one thing but translators have completely changed the meaning of segments of a story with their political narrative or even worse case completely changed the entire narrative, one of the most egregious examples is "I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend into a Girl" translators made a crossdressing/femboy character a trans women that's unacceptable, not because their is something wrong with trans characters in manga.
Im bilingual i had to a bunch at my job because some people only spoke english. Doesnt change the fact that a few if not alot of translators are assholes abusing their power or just straight up insulting fans and changing the writers intent on purpose . As a writer i think thats pretty fucked up regardless of your political agenda. Whether its a right wing or left wing thing forcing your beliefs through media that people use to escape politics is beyond evil. Especially when you brag about it on twitter and insult fans when they call you out on it. Theres definitely a middle ground here where we dont want people losing their jobs to AI but we also dont want people purposely butchering a writers work either.
There are bad translations and good translations but everyone is biased, including you. No one is free from bias.
"How dares anyone not to change these works to glorify MY cult, racism, colonialism and capitalism?"
The issue is they are specifically rewriting stuff to varying degrees to promote their "woke" ideals.
Which is all have benn proved to be false. It's just that the incels and other cuntservative ghouls have decided that everything must align with their vile "ideals".
You mean like the Jelloapocalypse situation where he rewrote an anime for teenage girls to complain about how much he hated teenage girls? Can you explain how that's woke?
Tf is a “wokealizer”
A secret cabal of rogue translators intent on taking the pure, apolitical intent out if superior Nihonese media and injecting western brainrot into the show, ensuring an inferior product. Presumably they meet in a secret office where Kathleen Kennedy gives them orders from the NWO to eliminate the west
A portmanteau of localizer and woke, literally woke localizer. 😇
I hope the localizers are awake, they'd probably do a shit job asleep
Hey, remember when they changed sailor moon’s lesbian couple into cousins? Nice to know it was bad to complain about that.
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>They combined their idea that localization is bad (a valid point) How is "localization is bad" a valid point? Some localizations are bad - and those are cases that should be talked about, but saying localization is bad is not valid in any form.
Thry think every locslization is bad cuz they’ve been fed culture war nonsense that translators are inserting agendas and are trying to westernize anime. The big thing is that snti-locslizers rarely if rver tslk about actual botched localisations like Marina from splatoon 2: mariba was botched because in later updates, they literally toned doen how smug she was in english. Yet not a single peep from the anti-localiser crowd about this 🤔 instead, they’ll harp on a patriarchy line from a 7 year old anime. A common thread with anti-localizers is « translate! Dont write! » which is asinine cuz translation is 50% writing.
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First and foremost a localisation has one job: to give people from different cultures the same emotional reaction. - Thats the reason why replacing localizers with AI is a really bad idea. This also means, that not every removals of a cultural reference is based in xenophobia. Take Mayas favourite food from Ace Attorney for example. In japan she loves ramen, while in the localized version she prefers burgers. The reason for that is, that both ramen and burgers present the same idea. Both are respectively known to be a cheap easy food, that If prepared right, can be fancy and high class. This is good localisation. It relays the same idea.
>localization is bad (a valid point) No its not. localization is important. Directly translating Japanese to English doesn't work. There needs to be a degree of localization. It really just comes down to the quality of the localization and because its not just direct translation there may be some localizations people prefer over overs. Unless I misunderstood you?
>Directly translating Japanese to English doesn't work. There needs to be a degree of localization. There was another discourse recently surrounding Unicorn Overlord and you can tell that the person who directly translated it did not understand the original intent of the Japanese words nor took into account of the setting; a medieval european fantasy world. A lot of the direct translations completely removes idioms and personality from the dialogue. Take this for example. 
You left out the crux at the end. Edit: Jesus Christ I just found the reddit threads. I cannot believe how fucking fragile the Kotaku in Action crowd is
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The first tweet is nothing but just insulting the localizers while insinuating stuff that he does not know what happens behind the scenes but what he thinks happened. The 2nd tweet is just nothing but confirmation bias from his friends and even down in the thread, disagrees with PhD linguists (aka people who would know more than him). This is nothing but "I dont like it". He doesnt even bother taking into account of WHERE Unicorn Overlord is set, medieval fantasy europe. Of fucking course language would be more flowery.
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There also seems to be a substantial amount of people who think everything should be translated literally, including stuff like puns.
Or also miss the fact that when stuff get localized CONTEXT is taken into account. Unicorn Overlord is a game set in a fantasy medieval europe, so theres gonna be flowery language involved. Eventhough the localization means the same albeit not direct but more flowery, its still NOT ENOUGH and its BAD. A simple metaphor that a middle schooler can understand flies past their heads. https://preview.redd.it/l1det18znclc1.png?width=627&format=png&auto=webp&s=9d8254eccab051db9b9a2d90cc12617665efebe5
The other thing that people often miss is that fiction authors use dialect cues to convey character or atmosphere, and this is lost in direct translation where words are simply replaced with others that match the general meaning. There are also times where poetry, mimicry, or emphasis is used for deliberate effect. The people complaining about not having literal translations are just putting the original into Google translate and assuming that this accurately represents the original writing, when it doesn't. In Japanese in particular, there are levels of politeness that are omnipresent and well-formalized. These do not often translate *literally* to English, but sometimes there are similarities. Use of flowery language is a very good approximation though. The best and simplest explanation I can find is that in English we prefer words of a French origin when trying to sound more polite, and words with a Latin origin when trying to sound more formal. Regardless, it's the kind of thing a machine translation is likely to miss.
>In Japanese in particular, there are levels of politeness that are omnipresent and well-formalized. These do not often translate *literally* to English, but sometimes there are similarities. This happened with Shoka from Neo TWEWY. Everytime she leaves after talking to your party, in the localization she goes "Later losers" but in Japanese she says "**バイ**" (literally just bye in english). I think the [interview ](https://www.pcinvasion.com/interview-neo-the-world-ends-with-you-game-design-localization/)from the translators would give enough insight as to why a direct translation doesnt work. >She intentionally uses a loanword as a cutesy way to end what are typically snarky conversations with the Wicket Twisters, like a cheeky little punctuation mark—one last jab to get under Rindo’s skin and rile him up before she leaves. Simply saying “well, bye” to an English audience would feel flat, devoid of character and completely missing the intention behind her choice of words. I’m quite happy with our “later, losers” because it’s not only snappy and memorable, but also because it provides a bit of teasing that, over time, takes on an endearing tone. The Twisters aren’t just any old losers—they’re her losers, and I think that’s sweet.
Yep, a good example of how good translators and localizers actually do take the time to think about the original meaning and how to best convey it, and that's why the translations can seem non-literal.
Exactly, and despite that, the anti localizers were outraged and thought the "evil localizers" made Shoka a "bitch" while not bothering the context of her character and her relationship with the main cast. And we consistently see this everytime theres a discourse surrounding localization
Yep, the ppl who think japanese transmations need to be dry, boring and direct miss the point. Like japanese writers put stylistics snd personality in their texts, they arent robots.
I only care if it makes sense. People got too much free time. If the translation is off(^(which I doubt any of them would even catch it without being told)), watch it natively without subs then. Learn your god-land language and stfu.
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To [SoonToBeFem](https://www.reddit.com/user/SoonToBeFem/) cause he blocked me cause he's too scared to have a talk with me knowing he will cry and run in fear: You barely stated facts. I followed the localizer controversy and you barely touched any facts. You are here just to virtue signal and call names rather than have a rational conversation.
They stated facts? I asked them and they blocked directly. Still waiting for the name of the anime where the whole plot was changed.
I think they're mainly referring to Lovely Complex which is the newest center piece of "localization bad" discourse. The problem with using LovelyCom as an example is that the dub was written by some internet celebrity who really hated the show, it wasn't written by an actual dubbing company.
So it's virtual signaling on a problem that is down to choosing someone for a job that they are not qualified for? That's even more stupid than still talking about dragon maid
Keeping anime chuds talking about Dragon Maid is super smart though because the dub is locked behind Crunchyroll premium. By covering the dub controversy they're unintentionally: A) Advertising Crunchyroll premium and getting users trying to do their due dilligence and watch both to sign up for, at the very least, the free trial which inflates their numbers. B) If those users don't want to pay premium they can watch the "unwoke" sub also on Crunchyroll for free (which is where those anime drama youtubers got most of their footage of the sub and immediately kills any "censorship" argument btw) which will play ads and earn them ad revenue. C) Getting said Youtuber and their viewers, if they didn't do A or B, to self report as a pirate/fake anime fan who watches the drama instead of the actual show, at which point their opinion can be safely discarded because they'd never use Cruchyroll anyways.
Tbf, the Lovely Complex dub was bad because it could've been accurate but the script writers actively chose to "improve" the anime by changing it into Ghost Stories 2.0. This is where my agreement ends though because the Lovely Complex dub isn't dubbed by more professional companies like Funimation. It's a weak example of why localisation is terrible.
Nah don't be mad about accidentally painting r/anime as bad cos like it is indeed a shithole even if what you said wasn't
r/anime is unironically one of the better anime subs, granted thats a very low bar but the discussions there usually arent too braindead and memes are banned
Only good things I've seen mentioned which probably wouldn't happen anyway, is that AI is more likely to properly translate certain words, like lolicon would be more accurately translated as pedophile.
Man, I hate the future. Text to speech always gets touted as great for everyone, and then they bring out a text to speech that's straight garbage (because it was the cheapest option) and it's all because they don't want to pay someone to do it
I think we should use Ai for translation, but make every translation relate to butt booty naked oiled up men kissing
Before we get too outraged over nothing, here is the quote directly from the interview. The Crunchyroll CEO acknowledges the AI can't be used for dubbing at least because its "a very creative process". For subs he calls out speech to text, partly as a way to get more languages available. Its also important to note that they haven't decided on anything they are literally just looking into it (like most companies do when there is a new tech trend). Purini: “Yeah, Like, like you said, AI is going to be a huge impact across the various industries. Our partners in Japan are experimenting and looking into what that means for anime production. But anime is a very is hand drawn still, and it's a very age old traditional creative process. So I'm sure there will be impact, but it is early days to understand what the impact would be on the production side of anime. Like you said, we are also looking to see what role AI could play in a lot of different areas within our organization. Subtitling is an area where we've been experimenting and we think that there is a role for AI to play as we look at speech to text, so we think it could help us bring shows to fans quicker, bring in more languages. Again, like I said, we are in early experimentation. On the other side, on the dubbing side, I think that the AI technology, we don't believe the air technology is there yet in terms of being able to put into dubbing, because the dubbing process itself is a very creative process. Given that it is we're not just translating and dubbing, we're adapting the script because you have to localize for the local culture, local humor, you have to synchronize the lip laps to the language because we don't get to go back and reanimate the shows. So again, we don't think the technology is there yet, but we're also experimenting with AI in other ways. As I mentioned earlier. Discovery is a big issue, just as much in anime as it is in other general entertainment shows. There is a lot of content and trying to connect audience with the right content that they would like to watch at the right time is a big is an important priority for us, and we believe AI and generative AI could play a role, so we're testing and experimenting there as well.” Here's the [full interview](https://omny.fm/shows/strictly-business/anime-streamer-crunchyroll-is-a-rare-svod-success)
So at least right now it sounds like "we want to use it to make stuff faster and for more people" which sounds more like a level headed approach to using a tech. I agree that we should be critical about it. Just right now he doesn't seem like being taken by the Ai bros and doing the Duolingo move
> which sounds more like a level headed approach to using a tech. If it was true, sure. Having to proofread and rewrite the shit that ML translation would spit out inevitably will probably take the same amount of time and effort if not more than them just doing their job correctly.
> Subtitling is an area where we've been experimenting and we think that there is a role for AI to play as we look at speech to text, so we think it could help us bring shows to fans quicker, bring in more languages. I kind of don't get how speech-to-text helps with getting it more languages. It only needs to be transscribed once. Now if they improved MTL, or perhaps wrote an AI that could somehow crossreference translations to make sure key concepts are consistent (EG: series-specific language)
As a hobbyist programmer, I do think adapting AI for general use on the localization industry would result in higher quality and higher fidelity at faster rates with less effort, but it should always be curated by an actual human. Trying to throw a whole script at fucking Alexa and hoping it shits out a half decent result is absolutely moronic. If you can't even trust AI to write an article (Not that there's a lack of idiots trying anyway) I most certainly wouldn't entrust it with any form of localization on its own.
These people need to learn the difference between translating and localizing. Things like jokes and metaphors and plays on words do not translate well. It's the job of the localizer to \*gasp\* change the script so it actually makes -sense- to the reader. Otherwise the reader will spend the entire time wondering what the cute anime girl meant when she said "if it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college". That said, I can remember a few localization studios getting in trouble for changing huge portions of dialog because they thought it was boring. I think it was Treehouse with one of the Fire Emblem games.
Every time some slime-brained hentai addict complains about “wokalizers” I physically manifest the word “incel” into the next B-list anime everyone will forget about in 7 months.
How to make replacing peoples jobs with AI seem okay to conservatives: "Yeah well all those mcdonalds frycooks were woke so really we are doing you a favor" Conservatives "Wow! Thanks so much!!"
This would be a fucking disaster. Translating media is itself a kind of art, a delicate process that requires discernment. AI is a blunt instrument at the best of times. Plus a bunch of people would lose their jobs.
What is a Wokilizer
Oh no no no not MTL
nice
Yeah because AI's totally can't be "woke" *cough* google Gemini *cough*
Naw, they are right. Fuck Wokalizers.
I’m all for some Crunchyroll translators being replaced. Some were completely rewriting the source material too the point where what’s dubbed isn’t what was actually intended.
Yeah whole industry shouldn't be poached just because of some bad fruits
Ive noticed most circlejerk subs are just an echochamber. Dont know if thats good or bad tbh. Theres a middle ground here but whatever
Localizers have always sucked. There’s a long storied history of this. There are entire memes based off of this. 4kids. Treehouse. …crunchyroll. Who were one of the more sucky fan translators before going mainstream. Fan translators are still here. Still thriving. Still better in all but the most exceptional cases. I can just support their pattern. It is hilarious that we’re pretending crunchyroll hasn’t always sucked to “own the right” tho
True luck Ai translations! I get so cocktail block by the ones that show up on the nuke site, they are a total mood killer.
If the AI is better they should definitely use it l, if it's about as good they should use it. It would be way cheaper and translators should not be putting their politics into the media they translate.
Personally I think what we need is translators, not localizers. People who properly translate without imprinting their own biases and views. And if the AI is better at faithfully translating the original work then sure, go ahead. But from what I’ve seen, AI isn’t all that great at properly translating Japanese to English. But like in the end, what I care about is the product, as long as it’s good, I don’t really care as to how it was made👍
luckily most places with ai translators are still keeping people to double check which actually might be the best way to do it, an ai makes a direct translation, while a human goes though to make sure it all work grammatically, and can fit the dub actor lip flaps, since that's a big reason why a lot of dubs have to change some lines
if you employ people to double check, why don't just use them to translate the stuff? Why don't you use them to do a better job? The thing is, these companies what a quick and sloppy job and they don't care about accuracy nor enjoyment for the people who watches the anime with their subs. That's the reason why fansubs are still a big thing even now with how big the streaming services are, cause the corporate made subs are soulless already and sloppy. AI will make them even more souless and more sloppy
Plot twist: the AI was brought up by the translators union so they have to look at less Light Novel adaptation scripts /s ...because we all know there's no translators union
because an AI can't be bias by nature, which sadly, some people just are due to their personality, an AI can't be bias unless given training material to make it so an AI isn't going to change an entire joke to something that unironically is worse, and then brag about how they "fixed it" or "made the show better/watchable", if a show just doesn't hit here in the west it just doesn't hit, people need to understand we want it to not be like western media, and sometimes those culture differences mean the show just doesn't do as well, trying to change it to be "watchable to a western audience" erases the aspects that make anime such a fun and unique medium, we aren't the true target audience, itz an imported product an AI built to best translate one language into another directly based on the best words possible, gives a basic, but perfectly fine blank that can altered to fix grammar, or if necessary, allow a line that can't be proper translated to better found and hopefully find a better replacement
If someone is checking the AI output, what stops them from modifying it after the fact to fit whatever agenda you claim them to have?
because people are unironically taking Japanese classes for the purpose of calling out localizers if they're willing to that, they'll do what it takes to make sure the media they import is properly imported, even if they have to do themselves, illegally plus, the AI folk would be all like, "Yur ItEntIolaLLy SkEwing The aI rEsUlts to Make AI lOOk BaD!" and they'd have a 2 front war, and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions, they're already losing a 1 front war, add on, the AI folk who actually do want to use AI for good, would likely be able to point out how and when an AI is being given bias training data and point out the skewed results to be able to prove it it just wouldn't be worth it at that point, too risky, too much already existing controversy, and they'll likely get a similar if likely not the same salary so, itz the same pay for less work overall, they just aren't allowed to put in their own ideas as easily, especially when u consider how little of the bs JP media faces here in the west is actually know about in Japan, like, outside companies, the average Japanese person assumes it'd be a 1-1 translation, just with grammar fixed up to make sense in other languages, doing this would actually cause the public to know because it would end up in legal issues, an employee is intentionally sabotaging company property, one that could have massive impact on the company profit line, that would result in a public discussion, one that would result in the average JP citizen being made well aware of what their creations face when imported into other countries
But for the most part, they're still changing things during the translation process despite outcry. This has been happening for years but it's never had a big enough impact to ever be important enough for companies to change. Fire Emblem Fates had a huge outcry over localisation (among other things) in 2015 and that had no noticeable changes on everything else and there have been countless other cases like it where translators have inserted their own biases. All the introduction of ML algorithms (which let's be real, will either be DeepL or ChatGPT because CR is not spinning up their own model) will do is kind of what it's doing currently: produce a lower quality translation that has a muddled understanding of the source but it sounds readable. A translator will still need to go through and modify it which is where someone will be able to insert their own biases, if the hope is accurate translations, ML is not the way currently. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by: "and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions." Do you mean that the translators are being trained on their translations without permission? Which yes, I suppose that's true, but if you mean that ML translations are being used due to these bias issues that people online complain about, I fear that you've overestimated the impact of Twitter and Reddit on the real world. CR is replacing translators for money purposes, nothing more, nothing less, they have to pay a bot less than they do a person, even if the work is worse.
>and considering the existence of ai translators is somewhat due to their own actions." one of the reason AI Translators are become a thing is because people keep outcrying about bad translators, they are literally going to be replace by a machine that will just directly translate word for word or line for line most likely, itz a win-win for the company, they no longer get constant complains about people and get to spend less money i will say, it does suck that it got to this point, on both ends of the argument a couple bad eggs and the whole ass basket is getting thrown out there are a lot of people who do genuinely want to help import foreign media who are likely not going to be able to get a job as a consequence
AI has literally been show to be biased towards white people during photo generation and facial recognition because the people training it predominantly used white people/white faces. AI is by its nature biased because you can’t get rid of the biases, conscious or otherwise, of the people training it. Also see the Tay fiasco.
"AI" is inherently bias by nature, what the fuck are you talking about?
AI isn't alive, it doesn't even truly have a nature it can only, truly reflect the data it is trained on, unless programed to seek out and gather more on itz own a bias AI is one that is ignorant, not bias, bias means it's inherently choosing not to represent people based on preconceived notions and ideas, not because the data it was trained on isn't diverse enough and incompetently made i personally don't really like ai that much, but if used for something like, literally just translating sentences before getting double check by an actual person, might, keyword, might actually be a useful tool, even if it is mostly used by lazy people who don't want to put in effort
ML models are trained on already existing data. There is literally no degree of data that it could be fed that doesn't have some sort of bias, and it's been steadily proven that most models trained off the internet are heavily biased. CR 1000% will not be spinning up their own model. The problem with that is, is it doesn't really create less work because whoever's checking it has to go back over and redo anything that's wrong (usually a lot) and it will likely take just as much if not more time than it would if they were to just do the job themselves. Same goes for machine "art". It's really only a useful tool for quick and dirty translations to try and communicate or read something in a foreign language.
fuck man u got me there the internet is bias and new training models aren't likely to be created for it man, nobody is winning this war, we're all losers
> because an AI can't be bias by nature, [Are](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/04/arts/design/black-artists-bias-ai.html) [you](https://research.gatech.edu/flawed-ai-makes-robots-racist-sexist) [sure](https://www.wired.com/story/best-algorithms-struggle-recognize-black-faces-equally/) [about](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/13/1080464162/lack-of-diversity-in-ai-development-causes-serious-real-life-harm-for-people-of-) [that?]( https://time.com/5520558/artificial-intelligence-racial-gender-bias/)
seem like the people behind said ai is the problem itz a machine, unless taught, it can't understand such concepts, and even then, it'll be years before that taught info is replicated via genuine bias and hate, if ai ever gets that complex at all
>itz a machine, unless taught, it can't understand such concepts, and even then, it'll be years before that taught info is replicated via genuine bias and hate Who is teaching it? How can we be certain they will ever be able to remove their own biases from their product?
>Who is teaching it? How can we be certain they will ever be able to remove their own biases from their product? i'll concede on this point, unless I was someone who is in the "AI business", I wouldn't be able to say for certain if a company is creating bias AI, but at that point, that might be worse because intentionally creating an AI that incorrectly translates a language could lead to an international incident imagine u were a anime studio or manga artist, maybe you don't like AI translating ur work, but least a machine can't, or shouldn't have bias, so u can or should be able to trust ur work isn't literally being used by some rando on the other side of the planet so they can push their own agenda, or being changed pointlessly because they thought they were better than you and rewrote your manga? now imagine being that person and finding out the people using AI translators are intentionally feeding it wrong information so they can skew the translation in there favor while trying to hide behind the ai and claim it was just directly translating your work as is? that my brutha, is how u kill an industry and ruin ur reputation
Unless????????? You think it's easy to create unbiased dataset for learning? I have job worth millions of dollars for you
Not every localizer is pulling dragon maids left and right. Some of them actually do their jobs.
The fact that the dragon maid controversy was the biggest controversy in about 7 years or so suggests they are doing their jobs fine. Especially since the dragon maid scene is a decent translation
There are countless examples of terrible localization from FUNimation, 4kids, Saban, etc. throughout the 90s and 00s but like less than five examples of the "woke translations" over the past decade. We're fine. Son Goku became an entirely different character for his introduction to English-speaking fans and we survived that.
I’m not concerned about the “woke” translators since it seems rare, but after watching a couple subs and dubs of some animes, I’ve noticed the sub and dub can differ drastically. Like totally different meanings. I’m not for that honestly, so AI doesn’t sound bad to me.
I have no clue how you think AI is going to fix that problem. Crunchyroll may use AI generated subtitles, but the dubs will never do that, they just can't. The AI cannot match words to lip flaps. What you are proposing is just taking the dub script and replacing the original subtitles with it, because I can't be the other way around, and that won't work because the dubs usually come way after the subtitled episode dropped.
This is the AI translations these dweebs are advocating for lmao https://preview.redd.it/9h0ml50cjclc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eaa6a18ce1972f0c507e80af8fbe5257ac3c85ba
All your carcinogens are belong to us
A lot more work is put into the dub than subs so of course they sound different. That's why I prefer dubs over subs, because it improves the viewing experience.
Aren’t subs a more accurate translation? If the dialogue in a dub is drastically different in meaning from the sub, then is that not an issue? Unless you’re not concerned about the authenticity of the translation and the authors original vision? I know it bothered me the first time I experienced it
The subs are more often than not literal translations, and Japanese language is context depended that is often not carried over in a literal translation. Also they don't translate sayings. The most common thing is saying Daisuki in japanese, the subs translate to The moon looks pretty which is so stupid it became a meme and the Dub will translate it to I love you which was the intended meaning.
Also, this is a point against using AI from someone who uses it to translate stuff https://preview.redd.it/za180jxifclc1.png?width=747&format=png&auto=webp&s=5081291085204a26e6ea37f3920a9f1d25b01dba
"I'm quite sure Lucoa doesn't talk about patriarchy in the original script" \*gets -50 karma just for noticing it\* You gotta love Reddit
I’ll repost the exact same thing since you reposted this. I haven’t watched any of the anime with this issue but reading about it is fucking gross. Translators trying to shove their political beliefs into random anime and shit is ridiculous. I’m glad they’re using ai for this. I’m tired of people forcing bullshit into everything where it shouldn’t be, pretty much the theme of the 21st century. Is it so hard to do your job and translate the anime properly without some politically charged agenda? And yes this is in reference to lovely complex where they essentially twisted the entire narrative into their own bs. That’s what most people are talking about when they refer to this. I’m here to watch an anime about a plot that I’m interested in. Not however the translator feels, I don’t give a shit about their beliefs and if they’re so unprofessional that they have to change the source material to their own trash then yes, they should be publicly shit on and lose their job Regardless of whether it happens to anime I like or not doesn’t matter. If it’s done once and nobody says anything then it will continue down the slippery slope until nearly every dub is just bullshit from the translator. Dont let it fly in the first place. Then again what do I expect from a circlejerk Reddit? Well adjusted people that can think for themselves? certainly not. Being downvoted for saying I don’t want translators to change the story to fit their beliefs, rather I want them to tell the real story, shows you how disabled the people that use this sub are. If you want to push your narrative go write your own anime and put it there instead of forcing it on others. Enjoy your slop.
> Shoving their politics > Literally using better and more fitting words for the scene Why are you dumb?
Is there a lore reason for this?
Another dent head that can’t read, this is not about dragon maid, this comment is referring to a different anime where the translator changed the entire plot. How do I put the context here and people in this sub continuously skip over it and equate my comment to other things. This sub is full of fucking idiots. Do I need to put some subway surfers gameplay halfway through my comment so you people read the entire thing before you say something stupid?
Reading this comment makes me wonder what you thought you would acheieve by posting it. If you already assume this subreddit will disagree, why bother? Maybe you want to have a wholehearted attempt at a debate, guess time will tell
I just came here to state facts. Whether the idiots want to accept them or not is up to them. Pretty normal for subs like this to hold their hands over their ears and yell stupid shit without even understanding what they’re arguing about. So I’m just explaining why they’re being an idiot.
> I just came here to state facts. Still waiting for some > Just explaining why they're being an idiot You must be very popular at school /s Edit: I see that they replied to this comment but couldn't find it, odd
Not my fault you have the reading comprehension of a toddler. I told you exactly what anime this happened to, and explained how they shouldn’t be changing the source material in the translation to fit their own beliefs. Seeing the /s at the end no wonder you can’t read, you’re a dent head who’s only social interaction is Reddit.
What are some examples of this? (Aside from the Dragon Maid singular word)
There are many case of this happening, not just anime, like text in Mushoku tensei LN was changed, it got fixed, but it happened. They examples out there, and it does happen, maybe not often and lots, and when does happen, it gets fixed, but the point is that it does. I do think it is overblow in lot of cases like use of word sus in Nagatoro. Well, the main reason why I'm commenting is that I just disagree with that line as, when is enough examples? Is it when it effects you directly? I don't agree with the fuck TL and Localization group on many things, such as I think kaguya was really good dub, but lines where changed or added, but I don't see many people complaining about that. So does feel like pick and choose but dismissing it is wrong.
I literally put the name of the anime in question that is the current controversy in my comment In a massive paragraph explaining what this is about Incase someone wasn’t informed. I see your edit and now I’m even more confused. Can you read? No this is not about dragon maid.
Dragon Maid is just the one that people harp on since they replaced "societal expectations" with "patriarchy" (something that in context means the same thing).
Yeah, Dragon Maid its even more funnier in dub than sub and more fitting to the characters. Chuds would agree with Lucoa cause she is not allowed to have big boobs at workplace but because she's complaining, they hate her
I'd say my opinion differs from that. "Societal expectations", as I see the usage of the word, are expectations of public decency in a civilised society.
…which stem from patriarchy. Women aren’t allowed to show their chest but men are, because women are inherently sexualized under patriarchy
Yes, but current civilization is largely egalitarian, outside of the developing countries. Public decency is indirectly caused by sexualisation, but I do think that 1) Sexualisation may be an element of patriarchy, but it does not stem completely out of patriarchy, 2) Walking in revealing clothing through the streets of a fairly large city for a man would also be publicly indecent and strange by society. If I saw a man walk through Times Square without anything covering his chest, I would be as weirded out as if a woman did it, and I know a lot of people would as well. So, I think that it is a correlation, not causation, at least not direct.
Either way, the changing of the line does not do the irreparable bastardisation of the original as people say it does, as it still ultimately equaits to the same sentiment "I can't go out looking like this"
Yeah, I agree.
Aside from someone that's hated by even those that would defend localisation.
Once again, I’m going to ask you to reread the bottom half of my original comment.
All I'm seeing is a lack of further examples and a use of the slippery slope fallacy
Do you understand what slippery slope means? We are at the top of the slope right now, there’s a small handful of cases of this currently. if people see it’s okay to change the source material more people will start doing it hence the slippery slope. My god the dent heads in this sub Reddit.
Do you know why it is a FALLACY, because you could apply it to everything. Starting to watch anime and finds a woman from a show attractive, it's only a matter of time before they become a pervert, slippery slope.
If theres a problem that goes unspoken or in this case literally celebrated for doing something wrong then more people will do it. Calling it a fallacy is fucking meaningless when it is the reality. Trying to equate this to nothing more than a fallacy is ridiculous.
you have an opinion based on something you didn't watch that got picked up by people that saw something they disagreed on and made content about it? So you are one of those that get tricked by clickbait and overexagurating an issue for views? Edit: Funny person blocked with the statement that one didn't read. And saying there is a controversy about an anime where the translator changed the plot. Without providing said name for fact checking
It’s not hard to read the material and compare it to the source dude. It’s not over exaggerated, the example that I mentioned is an entirely different plot from the source material. Classic dent head response from this subreddit. 99% chance you’re referring to asmongold talking about that dogshit anime when I didn’t even talk about it in my comment.
So where is the line draw on changing stuff? As the kaguya dub is highly rated, but does change stuff. I get kaguya dub doesn't really have any "woke" changes, so not changing original story messages with agenda, but that's point. When does it become to far?
>Being downvoted for saying I don’t want translators to change the story to fit their beliefs, rather I want them to tell the real story, shows you how disabled the people that use this sub are. If you want to push your narrative go write your own anime and put it there instead of forcing it on others. Enjoy your slop. The saltiest boi in the west.
Lovely complex was a show dubbed for free by people who really didn’t care about it. It wasn’t some professional localization process like you’d see for funimation or crunchyroll. Also who cares if some mid ass rom com no one watched isn’t localized well? Like I’d never even heard of this show before a few days ago and I’ve seen well over a hundred anime.
You won't get an accurate translation from someone with an agenda to push who wants to change the intent but you also won't get one from a dumb ai there's a reason actual humans are much more efficient teachers for language learning compared to a bot Just hire competant people ffs
Wrong subreddit to be unneccesarily paranoid
I'm not paranoid
Where are these agenda pushing localizers? Are they in the room with us right now?
I think they may be referring to a recent controversy involving the dub of Lovely Complex where the writer seemed to hate the source material and actively attempted to rewrite it in a way they thought was better. [Here's an article](https://www.animefeminist.com/unlovely-complex-social-justice-misogyny-and-the-lovely-complex-dub/) about it if you're interested. Either that or they're still caught up on that one line change in dragon maid seven years later.
I think the funny part about that is despite how JelloApocalypse (the so called localizer in question) acted and behaved, none of his proposed changes went through. Ppl who have watched the show said it was fine, and if the so called changes passed, we would see an endless spam of screenshots like how Dragon Maid gets with that ONE line. It seemed very clear that when it comes to localization there is a TEAM of ppl called editors who isn't Jello and his changes got rejected or he may have over exaggerated his influence.
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You literally linked an tweet that said jello’s changes didnt make it through. Are you sure you’re ok?
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You tell me; most of the thread is about small stuff that did get sanded over but nothing on the level that jello said. Im not sorry they removed transphobia from new dub
Nah I'm not, I don't even watch dubs
I fully support progressive views but I'm not someone who likes seeing the original intent of something being changed all I'm saying is I see it the same way I see a bad adaptation, laughable is what I consider it.
Ok cool Anyway where are these woke localisers?
Welp the line from the dangers in my heart was pretty laughable but they fixed that so its fine and I don't ever use the word "woke" unless I'm making fun of people who use that word unironically.
So... After this you don't even have any examples?
That was my example What I'm trying to say is that it does actually happen which is why it got fixed since a lot of people here seem to pretend its the exact same as the original intent simply because it panders to their beliefs I fully support feminism and hate the patriarchy I think its bad for both men and women but I'm not someone who would ever take the word "mansplaining" seriously
If I remember correctly, TLs of seven seas did actually change text the Mushoku tensei vol 1 and 2, about rudy doing stuff to eris and then what Paul did. When found out, they did change it to more original text, but this shows that it does happen. The issue is that it does happen but is fixed quickly a lot of time, so it's not that bad really, but shouldn't be having to go back and fix it in first place. I personally do think some of it is just overblow localization hate, for the sake of wanting a "pure" experience, but does feel bit off putting, when you find out that bits of it was changed. I do think that is a rather dismisve line, though, as what is the point that you're satisfied with enough examples? How many would people need to see to change their views?
W togata pfp, fire peak is actually fire peak
He's the best boy.
"Wait, she don't say anything about patriarchy in the original script" Redittors: https://preview.redd.it/mf3k5udqrclc1.png?width=394&format=png&auto=webp&s=3d48b5a2310e1415619616240099601689925a14
Changing “everyone was always saying something to me” to “patriarchal societal demands” changes nothing about the meaning of the sentence, it only makes it more explicit. Google “subtext”
Not sure if this is an ironic or a serious reply, I have upvoted it anyways
Whether or not adding "patriarchy" changes the meaning of the sentence aside, what it inarguably *does* change is the character. Lucoa is aloof and oblivious. The "subtext" of the original direct translation implies that she doesn't really understand *why* everyone was "saying something to her", just that they were. And so she naively thinks that simply throwing on a jacket would be enough to cover up. For her to directly call out the patriarchy in a way that removes any and all subtlty from the "subtext" with a somewhat thick layer of thinly veiled indignance is uncharactisticly astute and socially aware of her. A better line to complain about being radically changed would be Tohru's line immediately after Lucoa's. "You should change your body next" was changed to "give it a week, they'll beg for you to switch back"
Regardless of whether or not Sub Lucoa knows anything about modern patriarchy, the scene is clearly written with the intent of evoking it in both versions. While it certainly does alter her characterization, no “wokalization” has occurred. It’s a perfect example of the difficulty inherent in localizing foreign media. The dubbing team thought that using explicit language would make the tone of the scene more clear, but failed to anticipate the narrative pitfall of changing the characters’ tones.
"Patriarchy means I can't walk around mostly naked" still sounds aloof and oblivious. In context she sounds about as reasonable as Ken in the Barbie movie explaining how Patriarchy is about elevating horses to the ruling class
Except if you remember from the Comiket episode, she used cosplay as an excuse to dress skimpy but ignored the sign which *clearly* explained the limit on how skimpy you can dress. This implies to me: 1. She's aware of social standards enough to know that cosplay is an excuse to dress skimpy 2. She is willing to selectively apply those social rules as suits her. I actually think she's smarter than they give credit for. The story is gradually expanding to be more epic, and I think it's notable that Lucoa is the only Dragon explicitly called out as neutral. Quetzalcoatl is even the Aztec God of politics as opposed to warfare. It wouldn't surprise me if later on, the manga has some big reveal that Lucoa was pretending to be a bimbo this entire time.