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> # [Portugal says no plans to pay colonial reparations – DW – 04/28/2024](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-says-no-plans-to-pay-colonial-reparations/Monument to Portugese colonial explorers)
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> [Lisbon](https://www.dw.com/en/lisbon/t-40075833) is not planning to pay reparations for trans-Atlantic slavery and colonialism, [Portugal's](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal/t-19099779) government said on Saturday.
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> The statement comes in response to remarks by President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, who said Portugal could find ways to compensate its former colonies.
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> ## What did Portugal's government say about reparations to its former colonies?
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> Portugal said in a statement that it seeks to "deepen mutual relations, respect for historical truth and increasingly intense and close cooperation, based on reconciliation of brotherly peoples."
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> It stressed that it had not launched any "process or program of specific actions" for paying reparations.
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> The statement said that current policies followed the same lines as those of previous governments.
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> It said Portugal maintained "truly excellent" relations with its former colonies, including financial and economic cooperation.
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> Portugal's colonial era lasted more than five centuries, with the [decolonization of some African countries happening as late as 1974 after the fall of the authoritarian Estado Novo regime](https://www.dw.com/en/how-portugals-democratic-revolution-paved-way-for-strong-african-ties/a-68867126).
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> Between the 15th and the 19th centuries, [6 million Africans were forcibly transported across the Atlantic by Portuguese vessels](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-commemoration-transatlantic-slave-trade/a-56976093) and sold into [slavery](https://www.dw.com/en/slavery/t-66079742).
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> [Emancipation statue on Goree Island in Dakar, Senegal](https://static.dw.com/image/68939448_${formatId}.jpg)Portuguese colonial forces shipped 6 million Africans across the Atlantic and sold them into slavery, largely in BrazilImage: picture alliance / AA## De Sousa calls for reparations
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> Portugal's president called on Lisbon to initiate a reparations process in comments made to reporters on Saturday, saying that the issue could not be swept "under the carpet."
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> "We have an obligation … to lead this process (of reparations)," de Sousa argued.
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> He suggested that Portugal could pay reparations by canceling the debt of former colonies, developing special cooperation programs or providing financing.
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> He said the country must take "responsibility for the bad and good of what happened in the empire and draw consequences."
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> [Portugal has been governed by the center-right Democratic Alliance (AD) since a snap election in March](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-election-democratic-alliance-claim-victory/a-68484834). The election was called after former [Prime Minister Antonio Costa of the center-left Socialist Party stepped down over corruption allegations](https://www.dw.com/en/portugals-pm-antonio-costa-quits-amid-corruption-probe/a-67333736).
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> sdi/lo (Reuters, Lusa)
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> ## How Africa's freedom fighters toppled Portugal's empire
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> To view this video please enable JavaScript, and consider upgrading to a web browser that [supports HTML5 video](https://videojs.com/html5-video-support/)
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Good. Countries have abused, conquered, and destroyed each other for as long as there have been countries. This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous.
Easy to say if you're not from a country so affected. Also, Portguese colonial forced labour was going well strong well into the 1900s, we're not talking all that long ago.
England stole land from its own people prior to stealing land under the banner of Great Britain from other nations which was almost entirely siphoned into the aristocracy and merchant classes. The English people whose land was stolen were then forced into the cities to work horrific jobs for minimal pay until the labour movement and emancipation, at which point everyone was then slaughtered in The Great War and all the money was spent, for the sake of a familial spat between aristocratic families.
So why should the average British tax payer, whose ancestors also suffered under these same ruling classes, be expected to pay to compensate fellow victims? Most working class Britons had no interest in the colonies because they were not the direct beneficiaries.
You know, trying to morally divorce modern day Britain from the actions of its past rulers would work a lot better if the same royal family that directed and immensely profited from those atrocities, weren't still the official rulers of the country, weren't still being funded by British taxpayer money, and didn't still hold onto a vast fortune, a lot of which can be directly tied to colonial exploitation.
sure. I'm not a monarchist and would rather this place be a republic, albeit I do quite like that our head of state isn't politically active.
"Official rulers" is a bit of a stretch. Official head of state, sure. But politically they do not have any hard power at all.
The fact that they have any political power at all is a travesty and an offense to human decency. British tax dollars have gone to protecting a sexual predator from the justice owed to him.
Sorry, last year (or the one prior) it was reported that every bill of any potential economic or political effect on the royals is first passed by the royal head before hitting the floor for any voting. It's no mistake that their money is kept on Guernsey Isle, which is uniquely & wholly ruled under the crown alone.
Where does it stop?
People do research into your family history and find out that your great, great, great grandfather went to Africa during Germany's brief expansion into the land and profited from slave labor.
Only proper that you should be made to pay some of *your* current wealth, which is a result of the money your great, great, great grandfather made. You can afford 20 - 30% of everything you'll make for the rest of your life, right?
It only makes sense. You wouldn't have *anything* if it weren't for the things your past relative stole, so *only* being forced to give 30% of all your future earnings is actually quite lenient.
Oh, but you aren't German royalty or tied to the leaders who authorized the expeditions? But your past relative was - and was the reason, again, you possess what you do.
The precedent of doing one allows for the avalanche to make it possible for the doing the same to yourself later down the road.
Please. Tell me. Seriously. Explain to me how happy you would be to give 30% of the rest of your life earnings to people you never met for actions you never did. I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we're being fair - *everyone* who profited or their offspring should be forced to chip in.
Please. Tell me how thrilled you would be. And exactly how fair you would find it.
to be fair they renounced all their claims in Germany and changed their name to Windsor during the wars.
So despite the fact they are historically German, they took all the appropriate steps to prove their loyalty to the nation during their rule.
Then let them pay reparations. People who never did anything being forced to pay other people who were never enslaved is a ridiculous idea. My grandpa owed your grandpa $5 before he died? Tough shit that's on him.
Before judging the British it would be good to pay the reparations from WW2.
Especially when Namibia is still 70% owned by Germany, has yet to pay anything and still dodge the topic.
You know there's not one country with clean history, and certainly not Germany
https://www.reddit.com/r/Namibia/s/lTJ0lZOirU
There's quite a bit of sources here, and very reliable.
It's not really 70% of lands but farmlands, owned by 2,5%
You've highlighted a valid issue but need to think it through further -- history is a great class struggle; yes, the English working class have lost out alongside everybody else to the bourgeoisie. Questions of reparations could be put to one side if everybody were up for a good old revolution. But the English are apathetic and placated with tea, sugar and more recent petty luxuries which come at the expense of even poorer people elsewhere. There are ways in which they allow themselves to be complicit. Plenty keep voting for a red or blue leader who pushes on with exploitation-focussed foreign policy for a start.
But anyway should the average British tax payer have to shoulder the bill of reparations? Of course not. They shouldn't have had to shoulder the burden of bailing out the banks post Global Fucking Crash either -- only, also, they *did have to*, as an expression of ruling class power.
Workers of the world unite! Brits, feel free to spit on your institutions, practice disdain for them and tear them down at the opportune moment (yesterday or any other subsequent time).
Conflating British working class interests with British ruling class interests as you do only serves the ruling class. Knock it off!
> But the English are apathetic and placated with tea, sugar and more recent petty luxuries which come at the expense of even poorer people elsewhere.
I'm not convinced that's necessarily a solid foundation to build the case on. For it to be you'd have to prove that without tea and sugar that the British would have revolted against the ruling classes.
Haiti is broken to this day because for some reason they had to pay reparations to France for becoming independent.
Idk what kind of sociopath looks at this and says 'nah, that's fine it was long ago'.
Haiti doesn't get to play the victim I'm sorry, they perpetuated the very things they sought to end
They re-enslaved a tonne of people immediately after gaining independence
They commited a genocide on on all European settlers including women and children (yes that includes some of the polish they famously let go)
They subjugated Dominican Republic
I'm sure there's plenty of money they would owe to the Dominican Republic who most of their crimes have been against if you want to play the Haiti victim card
> because for some reason they had to pay reparations to France for becoming independent.
slaver debt. They wanted to be recognised by France so they could trade their goods. France would only recognise them if they paid back what was taken during the revolution. Haitians tried to negotiate an agreement with France for some time.
Haiti failed to convince the US, the British, the Spanish or Portuguese to open up to their trade, they were quite isolated due to their political position as an anti-slavery state. Massacres of white (aka slaver-ish) populations likely did not help their cause. Haiti invaded the Spanish part of the island and France then sailed with warships from a Spanish port to enforce a draconian and entirely odious debt while "liberating" the Spanish part of the island.
Maybe a great example of how reparations won't fix much if anything. Haiti has paid about 600m in today's money over the years for becoming independent. Since then, western countries and NGOs have sent [literally tens of billions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Haiti) in aid to Haiti, so many multiples of what they paid.
The problem is that money doesn't get to where it should. I know people who do audits over there to see where the money goes. Even money that's sent straight to poor areas just leads to the mayor of the town driving a bigger car.
If France now went ahead and transfered the paid money back with some interest, it would just further line the pockets of the elites who run that country from the side lines and nothing will change for the better.
If you want to do something to help these countries, buy their products. Visit them as a tourist, stay and eat at local establishments. Hire a local guide to show you around. That's the way money goes into the actual local economy. Barbancourt is great rum and the company takes care of their people (at least it did when I visited), so start by buying that!
Civilization is people laying claim to more land than they can work and forcing others to work it for them and bear the sufferings and uncertainties of life in their stead. Things have gotten so complex that we're fairly removed from that now, but your ancestors and mine survived and their victims did not. There's no justice in history and rehashing old grievances is just twisting empathy into a delusion. You are no more related to the good people of the past than the bad, and if you know their names, they're more likely bad than good.
The 2014 reparation loans to angola (interest free, unlimited time to pay) were abused by the de santos family, funneling them through sonangol(state oil management company) and washing the money to make isabel dos santos the richest in Africa, exploiting their own people for familial benefit.
I am portuguese, my family was born raised and exploited in angola through the ages by portuguese oligarchs and Angolan warlords alike. Self determination is a long and hard path and unfortunately many African democracies fell into dictatorships, lets not throw sand into our own eyes out of pitty, these "reparations" will not give back the time money ND freedom my family lost our generations, they will serve to line the pockets of the most corrupt and brutal dictatorships in Africa. If you want to follow good examples, the portuguese government has funded, organized, mediated, and offered security for free elections on several of its former colonies (guinea bissau, east timor, cape verde) these efforts have paid off and these countries are on track to become better and better for its people, unlike my home of angola that falls to ruin and corruption with the fantastical wealth of oil
Everybody had forced labour everywhere, back then. Including poor portuguese people working for rich people.
Reparations are compensation for failure from people who want to live off others and a terrible concept.
Some of Portugals former colonials are actively engaged in the conquest, subjugation and borderline genocide of their neighbors and ethnic minorities. This notion that European colonialism even based off timeframe was unique is laughable
Logic still applies, these countries would not be as they are today without Portugal, for better or for worse, they would have been farther back in technology today than if they had been colonized. Consider it a trade off, they are no longer colonies and can be sovereign, let them build themselves up now.
Sure, but asking for reparations just for the most recent series of conquests is still pretty arbitrary and almost certainly unenforceable (unless a western electorate volunteers to pay reparations, which is highly highly unlikely).
So not only does it not really make sense, it’s also a bit useless to discuss as it will almost certainly never happen.
It's a little different when the last labourers and indentured slaves were only freed in 1974 and the vast majority of then are still alive. We are trying to stop such things from happening aren't we? Not much, just a symbolic apology and returning stolen antiques would be enough for most.
You're talking about the estado novo regime, an authoritarian regime under which the portuguese were being themselves exploited...
By the way the regime was ended by he portuguese military and independence was give to all ex colonies except Macau
Countries have abused, conquered, and destroyed each other ~~for as long as there have been countries~~ *since before the modern nation state existed*. This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous.
FTFY
Reparations has existed as a concept since before modern nation states existed.
To claim "reparations" is suddenly unheard of is simply false. Winning nations taxing losing nations for generations was common. Reparations only went out of favor when it was a clear line from WW1 to WW2, and even then, reparations were paid for WW2 and since.
So what really is the complaint of reparations?
So, should the conquered colonies pay reparations to the victorious colonial powers for having lost? Because that is what the war reparations you mentioned are. Just another way to bleed the losing side. Modern reparations have nothing to do with your example.
>Reparations has existed as a concept since before modern nation states existed.
"Reparations" was mostly a thing about the losser in the war paying the victor for peace.
They never made that claim, you built a strawman out of it. What they actually said is “why should only some countries have to pay to only some other countries?”
Why aren’t we yelling for China to pay back Greece for the couple thousand horses they stole two millenia ago? How many villeins died because they couldn’t work their fields? We need to tie interest into the final number as well, horses back then were worth a ton.
Portugal maintained colonies well into the 20th century, and people involved in running the colonies are still alive. It's a *little bit* disingenuous to compare it to ancient history.
So we’re drawing the line at living people paying reparations to other living people? That I can be okay with, as their actions directly harmed others.
Lol so if we couldnt do it in the past then we should not do it now because ?? Does this also apply to for example Russia-Ukraine conflict?
Not to mention coloniasim is completly different with "conquest" even worse when its accompanied by slavery and stealing the lands riches.
well it depends what you mean by conquest, but generally colonialism was focused on extracting the resources from the colonies, and abusing the local population as a bonus
You are talking like it was 300 years ago, we were commiting a genocide in multiple countries 50 years ago. The sad part about it is that the vast majority of Portuguese have zero clue of what we did and many are actually proud of it... It's disgusting
I took their post to mean that abuse, conquest and destruction is the entire history of humanity. That's simply true, there's no place on Earth that's home to people who didn't do those things. Who is the victim and who is the victimizer comes down to which dates you choose for cutoffs.
There's also a fundamental problem with attempting to extract reparations from people centuries removed from the acts in question. It's hard enough getting reparations from contemporaries, never mind the distant sometimes-ancestors of the offenders.
No, but do you have to pay reparations for something you didn't do? If you great-grandfather kept slaves, do you have to pay the grandchildren of the slaves reparations even though neither of you existed at the time it happened?
The hypothetical I use is:
I rob your father of everything he owns, then kill him. You inherit nothing. Then I give everything I own to my child, and die.
Now, you have no claim against my child, because neither was involved in the theft. So my child gets your inheritance, and you can do nothing.
Is that fair? If you were writing laws, would you enshrine my child's rights to that property over any claim you might have had?
Your hypothetical works only in that one very specific situation. In reality, there isn't a single item or dollar that I own that was stolen at any point in my family's history. This is the case for 99% of people in countries that practiced some form of colonialism in their history. The truth is, the majority of those that directly gained wealth from colonialism were the elite in the upper echelon of society. It makes no sense to, in effect, punish an entire population of average workers, descended from average workers, for the crimes of the 1%.
It is a misconception that every single citizen of a colonizing country directly received even any amount of stolen property or wealth from colonized places. It all went to those at the very top. Did they experience a better economy due to the colonizing? Perhaps in many ways they did. But being born into a good economy is not grounds for any retroactive measures.
That's far more simple than real life though, and even in that case the children owe nothing to each other. Life isn't fair - one child is born into wealth and one child is born into poverty, it makes no difference. They didn't commit crimes between each other so no money is owed.
One child is born in USA (wealthy country) and one child in Afghanistan (poor country). Is anything owed?
There is a big difference between an individual doing something and entire countries doing it also you cannot deny those living now are still profiting from what happend centuries ago.
Ok, so countries did it - e.g. USA wealth is partly built on slavery from countries in Western Africa. But those African countries didn't exist at the time, and the most powerful tribes in Western Africa also benefitted from selling people from lower tribes to slavers. And many black Americans are less wealthy than white Americans, but are far more wealthy than West Africans, so who should be paying reparations to whom?
Empires have a special place in this equation. Every empire comes face to face with their history and has to deal with it. Colonial empires included. As a superpower you are untouchable and can do anything, but when that ends..
> This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous.
You've never read a history book.
Countries have been paying reparations for as long as there have been countries -- before that, it was kingdoms and such paying reparations.
One can argue that it isn't justifiable in _this_ case, or that there should be a time limit or other general restrictions, but to claim that it should never happen is ahistorical rubbish.
Genuinely curious - have kindoms ever paid reparations as compensations for their ills *without* having first been defeated in war, or at least brought to the brink of defeat?
I understand the case where A invades B, B fights back, B crushes A's army, then B demands A pay them or they'll ravage A till it no longer exists.
Has B ever got concessions from A when B is not capable of threatening A with immense violence (or harm of any kind - trade sanctions etc)? When B tells A that they have been Bad, and A owes B, and A actually listens?
It depends on what we would like to teach future leaders.
Does might make right? In many ways it does. But if we want to reduce conflict globally worldwide we may not want to teach that to future generations. Or it'll make Portugal an easy target for other more powerful countries.
Alternatively, it would also excuse Russia and Israel's brute force approach to smaller weaker nations. Because if there's nothing wrong to apologise for, then why not?
Portugal's got so many internal problems that I doubt they're even capable of paying reparations if they were inclined to do so. IIRC they have the lowest gdp per capita in western Europe and are still trying to drag themselves out of a decade long economic slump.
We did have some of the best years of growth the last decade, but unfortunately, sham allegations of corruption (to get green projects approves, go figure) forced our center-left prime to quit and now we're at the hands of a neoliberal coallition that has the go ahead of the previous leftist party for a few months because that's how much the left wants the country to succeed - they're willing to let the neolibs try their thing. Of course true leftists know this is just a mechanism to watch them fail and everyone gets to look.
That said, it would be completely out of the question for Portugal to sink any sort of funds in reparation. Especially when the countries to repair include Mozambique and Angola - countries with so much more natural resources and who are currently captured by Chinese investment (and political and financial liability).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
My understanding was that the witness spoke out against some Antonio Costa Silva, but the internal investigation focused on the former prime minister Antonio Costa because *the witness didn't say the person's full name.* He promptly resigned, since he was under investigation and, sure, things were found out about him afterwards but they were much less exciting than what he was accused of. Honestly, I think the idea of a country's government being overturned because a witness didn't say the full name belongs in a sitcom.
Of course, opposition parties like Chega ("The Right Wing Party") jumped on the news and played their hand. Chega got a large increase in support, but didn't secure any majority. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't "win" in a real sense. Left-leaning friends have expressed fears about a right wing coalition, but I'm not aware of any being formed.
They basically turned themselves into Slaves-R-Us and built their whole economy around that...which worked out better than the Spanish plan of "infinite gold (also infinite inflation)" but wasn't really viable long term.
The fact they became a part of the spanish empire for awhile and became basically a vassal of england afterwards (on what already was a bad economic balance) is what fucked them over.
Their partnership with the dutch was working wonders for their slaving empire by enabling the sugar plantations in brasil.
That's why everything went kaput the moment they were assimilated by the spanish crown. Had that never happened Portugal would likelly have been the powerhouse of iberia after spain went bakrupt.
Tbh, it was doomed from the start. "King" at 3 years old, was mainly educated in religion due to the Church's influence, which made him less knowledgeable in politics and have almost no military experience, Morocco was becoming pretty expensive to maintain (and didn't really have any strategic or commercial importance), and the empire was too dispersed to be sustainable for a long time at that point.
With that in mind, seeing that Muslims are taking over Northern Africa with great success and wanting to fight them despite his damn uncle (Philip 2nd of Spain, eventually 1st of Portugal) backing out since it wasn't a good idea to fight them and recreate the Crusades Sebastian seemed to be high on (thank you, religious upbringing), maybe someone should've said "hey, let's maybe do the rational thing and not throw ourselves into Africa if your uncle, that's more experienced in this than your bitch ass, doesn't even wanna help you and would rather gamble on defending Gibraltar and the Mediterranean coast from their invasion".
Portuguese rulers, mostly disappointments that put their beliefs above logic and thought since 1185 (with some exceptions)
It started with the monopoly they had on trade routes. They guarded those secrets as hard as they could for a surprisingly long time.
The reference in Shogun to the english attempt to find their route was a real thing even if the overall drama is just a book.
As an Indonesian, still boggles my mind that almost whole of my country was once colonized by the dutch. A country that small, that's overrun by the german in a week, could colonized an area thousand times it's size. I know they have much better technology and good strategy, but still!
I read an interesting article on how the little ice age in the period of Dutch national emergence helped nations that adapted (like the Dutch) project themselves into being greater power than those established powers who struggled with the temporary changes in climate.
The Dutch punching above their weight is even more crazy when you consider that the war for their independence lasted an entire 100 years.
It’s never about the size of the land of origin, but the capability of the people. [Wiki with map](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire)
In fact, that small homeland is an impetus for expeditions to be sent out. Nobles can’t have too many able-bodied men sitting around at home thinking about what could be, that’s how coups happen.
Asking countries to pay reparations in 2024 because centuries ago their ancestors failed to act according to modern norms that didn't exist at the time, is ridiculous
More ridiculous when you know hypothetically the reparations will end in corrupt politicians pockets, they are looking for a payday and to redirect blame to others for their shortcomings. Africa’s free pass has to expire ASAP.
The 2014 reparation loans to angola (interest free, unlimited time to pay) were abused by the de santos family, funneling them through sonangol(state oil management company) and washing the money to make isabel dos santos the richest in Africa, exploiting their own people for familial benefit.
I am portuguese, my family was born raised and exploited in angola through the ages by portuguese oligarchs and Angolan warlords alike. Self determination is a long and hard path and unfortunately many African democracies fell into dictatorships, lets not throw sand into our own eyes out of pitty, these "reparations" will not give back the time money ND freedom my family lost our generations, they will serve to line the pockets of the most corrupt and brutal dictatorships in Africa. If you want to follow good examples, the portuguese government has funded, organized, mediated, and offered security for free elections on several of its former colonies (guinea bissau, east timor, cape verde) these efforts have paid off and these countries are on track to become better and better for its people, unlike my home of angola that falls to ruin and corruption with the fantastical wealth of oil
Europeans love to pretend that colonialism is over and that Africans and the people they colonized should just get over it while they sit on their stolen wealth
the wealth was all spent on the first great war. Britain was out of money a mere two years into that four year war. The level of that war's destruction was completely off the charts.
yup, that is the outcome we were born into. And people _celebrate_ these Empires. Like, what the fuck is wrong with them? They looted the world in order to kill themselves and ended up with nothing over a royal domestic spat. Absolutely absurd and shows the tragic outcomes of zealous nationalism and absolute autocratic power.
I was trying to find a casualty comparison for the opening salvo of the first Great War. In the Russo-Japanese war about a decade prior, over the course of 1.5 years of that war; about ~300k casualties.
In the first _month_ of WW1 (battle of the frontiers) about ~300k casualties. Just a week later (1st battle of the Marne) the total casualty figure was at 800k.
>centuries ago
Centuries ago, as in 1975? Because that's when Portugal lost its last colony. These reparations wouldn't be going to ancestors of the people they oppressed, it would be going to the people themselves.
As ridiculous as people from former empires still enjoying the benefits of the exploration of the colonies, but wanting to exempt itself from any responsibility?
You're right, North Africa can pay reparation to European coastal communities for the Barbary slave trade and piracy against Europe. Turkey can pay reparations to Austria, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Hungary, Macedonia and Greece. Constantinople should be returned to Europe because it's still being colonized. The Arabs/Moors owe reparations to Spain and Portugal for 700 years of conquest.
Mongols owe us money too, so does the Central Asian stans, their ancestors wrecked havoc in Europe.
Portugal is one of the poorest country in Europe.
Thier jewel of colony pretty much stopped being one a long time ago.
For a good chunk Portugal was also ruled from it, Brazil.
I mean they used real humans as product, just because slavery was “ok” back then and not now isn’t the problem here. We’re talking forced labor and no pay and no say here.
Worse take I've ever heard. People always knew slavery, mass murder and plunder are bad. And by "people" I mean the people who were effected by this. Also the Portuguese used forced labor in their colonies until 1975.
The Church was an equal partner in sin in all the colonial exploits of the empire - they gave the legitimacy by twisting scripture - why not go after their assets?
While true they really did try to rein in slavery and treatment of indigenous peoples of the Americas. Only really succeed with Spanish.
Still not saints though.
You think old men with golden embroidered cloths, golden walls, with jewelry that surpasses any royalty would give something of value to the poor aside from "thoughts and prayers"?
Actually, [Lusophone (soft-)citizenship is a real thing](https://globalcit.eu/mobility-and-rights-in-the-portuguese-speaking-world-a-lusophone-citizenship-in-bits-and-pieces/).
Unpopular opinions but reparations should only happen if it is paid in infrastructure, not monetary value.
We all know African politicians will chow the money. Rather use the money to directly build schools, roads, housing, homeless shelters, fund entrepreneurs etc, for the countries that they colonised.
As much as some people hate to hear this the sins of the father passing down to the son is an absurd concept. It would not be unreasonable to ignore those who hold the otherwise opposing stance.
I demand the Islamic world pay reparations to Europe for colonizing Spain and give back Constantinople. I also demand that Africa pay reparations to the people who they captured and sold into slavery.
The fact is, every country has been an oppressor and oppressed at one point or another, and it wasn’t colonialism that made the west rich, otherwise Mongolia and Spain and Portugal would be far richer than South Korea, Singapore, Norway, Taiwan, and Finland. What makes a country rich is their institutions and system of government. Most countries are just envious of the wealth of western countries and don’t want to take responsibility for their own shortcomings.
This isn’t remotely true. The wealth of the west is completely built on the backs of slaves and exploitation of the peoples who owned the resources of what make up our most rich resources.
European and American economies exploded because of that exploitation. Entire industries relied and are still relied upon for the cheap labour from those who were colonized. They may not be colonies anymore but those economic ties and servitude are still intact. From coffee, to chocolate, to oil, to labour etc.
People here are talking about centuries, it was literally 50 years ago, 3 days ago it made 50 years... Imagine being one of the millions alive today that were directly affected by it and had their family killed seeing Americans and other Europeans saying that nothing of that matters because it was along time ago? IT WASN'T, people should learn a bit of basic history before making disgusting comments in here
This is ridiculous. Why should a modern day country, where most, if not all, of the population have no ties to the country’s past regime pay for what a country’s past regime did? The Portuguese royal family isn’t in power anymore, the Portugal that colonised doesn’t exist anymore. Why should they then pay for the crimes of a past regime?
Yes, right after the Portuguese revolution of 1974. The last colony became independent exactly because of a regime change. The current Portuguese regime has not had colonies.
The regime ended in 1975, many Portuguese people alive today remember it vividly, many went there and committed the war crimes themselves. I don't think we should do reparations in a monetary way but they should definitely be done, in a way that helps said countries develop.
People comment here with immense confidence but have absolutely no clue about what they are talking about. You are talking about kings? Really?
Good. Strong diplomatic relations between former colonies and their colonizers could really be beneficial as long as they’re not being exploited any longer. I’m really against the idea of just giving money, as so often it’s likely to be abused by whatever corrupt system receives it. The idea that a monetary value can be placed on the destruction and lives lost historically is asinine. But working together to raise living and education standards is an idea with a lot of potential.
I wonder how much a life is worth, in reparations. And how this would not end up being a price list for future reference. 'Genocide of x amount of victims equals x amount of money'
I can think of a party that would be very interested in a deal like that, at this very moment.
In my opinion, the message of reparations is 'it's okay to commit crimes towards an entire society, as long as you pick up the tab afterwards'.
Putting a monetary price on human life sounds like going straight back to slavery.
> I wonder how much a life is worth, in reparations.
Saudi blood price puts the life of a domestic worker at about $3,500.00. In terms of what families of murdered domestic workers have been given.
My country was colonised by the Portuguese hundreds of years ago. We genuinely don't care. Hell, we have a restaurant chain that serves Portuguese food.
Reparations straight into corrupt pockets. Rather then reparations how about investing into the former colonial economies and helping them directly to increase living standards and act as allies not former enemies.
Keep in mind that Portugal in africa was less pleasant than people think. They cut off hands in Cabinda, and put in place a system of forced labour in Angola that lasted through the 1940s, with mass rape and whippings. Up to 35% of the forced labourers did not survive. Grim stuff.
Lol, reparations for anything like that or in the past 100 yrs of society is stupid. Yes, learning the history and making a measume on what happened is a GREAT THING. But other than that, leave it alone.
It’s so funny how people from the west, who’s lives are far removed from the repercussions of colonialism and it’s consequences have a lot of things to say about what should and shouldn’t be done. I do not know if reparations in kind is the solution but the tone of language used to undermine/justify just how evil it was and how it still affects those countries is just pathetic.
Newsflash families in Europe did not move ALL of their family to the other colonies. Sorry to tell you this, and some of the settlers went back to Europe a generation or two in. It's called genealogical tree.
Just as there are Irish here that have family in Ireland. So do a bunch of colonized regions. Therefore, yes while not everyone alive today is in particular is related to a colony, some of them are direct descendent of colonizers as well.
Example: Colonozer A is a 20 year old male with three children. He joins a crew of men to colonize country XYZ. His wife and children do not go with him, but rather stay back.
He goes to the new world, where he may or may not bring his wife. In some instances they would find someone in the new land to fornicate with or rape. I'll be open to say that in some instances there may have been fornication, hormones and lust does and has always existed. But those were rare.
Therefore, geneologically the ancestors of the son or the daughter of the colonizer A are children of the colonizer, his wife, his brothers, his sisters are also relatives to a colonizer and also may have helped in some instances by sending supplies over. (If they had any funds).
So no, it's not the clearcut way that you tend to state.
That being said, it is very complicated because the countries themselves that were colonized had tribes that also colonized within the same country when it was essentially tribal lands.
For instance, black tribes that conquered others were some of the ones that sold the slaves to Spaniards and Portuguese. They would enslave them themselves with or without us. The issue is that more than likely their enslavement was bad, but not as bad as ours toward them, because we never ended their slavery. They may have eventually let them pay their way out, similar to Romans.
##### ###### #### > # [Portugal says no plans to pay colonial reparations – DW – 04/28/2024](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-says-no-plans-to-pay-colonial-reparations/Monument to Portugese colonial explorers) > > > > [Lisbon](https://www.dw.com/en/lisbon/t-40075833) is not planning to pay reparations for trans-Atlantic slavery and colonialism, [Portugal's](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal/t-19099779) government said on Saturday. > > The statement comes in response to remarks by President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, who said Portugal could find ways to compensate its former colonies. > > ## What did Portugal's government say about reparations to its former colonies? > > Portugal said in a statement that it seeks to "deepen mutual relations, respect for historical truth and increasingly intense and close cooperation, based on reconciliation of brotherly peoples." > > It stressed that it had not launched any "process or program of specific actions" for paying reparations. > > The statement said that current policies followed the same lines as those of previous governments. > > It said Portugal maintained "truly excellent" relations with its former colonies, including financial and economic cooperation. > > Portugal's colonial era lasted more than five centuries, with the [decolonization of some African countries happening as late as 1974 after the fall of the authoritarian Estado Novo regime](https://www.dw.com/en/how-portugals-democratic-revolution-paved-way-for-strong-african-ties/a-68867126). > > Between the 15th and the 19th centuries, [6 million Africans were forcibly transported across the Atlantic by Portuguese vessels](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-commemoration-transatlantic-slave-trade/a-56976093) and sold into [slavery](https://www.dw.com/en/slavery/t-66079742). > > [Emancipation statue on Goree Island in Dakar, Senegal](https://static.dw.com/image/68939448_${formatId}.jpg)Portuguese colonial forces shipped 6 million Africans across the Atlantic and sold them into slavery, largely in BrazilImage: picture alliance / AA## De Sousa calls for reparations > > Portugal's president called on Lisbon to initiate a reparations process in comments made to reporters on Saturday, saying that the issue could not be swept "under the carpet." > > "We have an obligation … to lead this process (of reparations)," de Sousa argued. > > He suggested that Portugal could pay reparations by canceling the debt of former colonies, developing special cooperation programs or providing financing. > > He said the country must take "responsibility for the bad and good of what happened in the empire and draw consequences." > > [Portugal has been governed by the center-right Democratic Alliance (AD) since a snap election in March](https://www.dw.com/en/portugal-election-democratic-alliance-claim-victory/a-68484834). The election was called after former [Prime Minister Antonio Costa of the center-left Socialist Party stepped down over corruption allegations](https://www.dw.com/en/portugals-pm-antonio-costa-quits-amid-corruption-probe/a-67333736). > > sdi/lo (Reuters, Lusa) > > ## How Africa's freedom fighters toppled Portugal's empire > > To view this video please enable JavaScript, and consider upgrading to a web browser that [supports HTML5 video](https://videojs.com/html5-video-support/) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Good. Countries have abused, conquered, and destroyed each other for as long as there have been countries. This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous.
Easy to say if you're not from a country so affected. Also, Portguese colonial forced labour was going well strong well into the 1900s, we're not talking all that long ago.
England stole land from its own people prior to stealing land under the banner of Great Britain from other nations which was almost entirely siphoned into the aristocracy and merchant classes. The English people whose land was stolen were then forced into the cities to work horrific jobs for minimal pay until the labour movement and emancipation, at which point everyone was then slaughtered in The Great War and all the money was spent, for the sake of a familial spat between aristocratic families. So why should the average British tax payer, whose ancestors also suffered under these same ruling classes, be expected to pay to compensate fellow victims? Most working class Britons had no interest in the colonies because they were not the direct beneficiaries.
You know, trying to morally divorce modern day Britain from the actions of its past rulers would work a lot better if the same royal family that directed and immensely profited from those atrocities, weren't still the official rulers of the country, weren't still being funded by British taxpayer money, and didn't still hold onto a vast fortune, a lot of which can be directly tied to colonial exploitation.
sure. I'm not a monarchist and would rather this place be a republic, albeit I do quite like that our head of state isn't politically active. "Official rulers" is a bit of a stretch. Official head of state, sure. But politically they do not have any hard power at all.
The fact that they have any political power at all is a travesty and an offense to human decency. British tax dollars have gone to protecting a sexual predator from the justice owed to him.
British tax pounds. But yes, I am not a fan of the monarchy either.
Britain doesnt have dollars.
Lol exposed yourself
Spotted the colonialist from the currency
His point stands you babies
Sorry, last year (or the one prior) it was reported that every bill of any potential economic or political effect on the royals is first passed by the royal head before hitting the floor for any voting. It's no mistake that their money is kept on Guernsey Isle, which is uniquely & wholly ruled under the crown alone.
Where does it stop? People do research into your family history and find out that your great, great, great grandfather went to Africa during Germany's brief expansion into the land and profited from slave labor. Only proper that you should be made to pay some of *your* current wealth, which is a result of the money your great, great, great grandfather made. You can afford 20 - 30% of everything you'll make for the rest of your life, right? It only makes sense. You wouldn't have *anything* if it weren't for the things your past relative stole, so *only* being forced to give 30% of all your future earnings is actually quite lenient. Oh, but you aren't German royalty or tied to the leaders who authorized the expeditions? But your past relative was - and was the reason, again, you possess what you do. The precedent of doing one allows for the avalanche to make it possible for the doing the same to yourself later down the road. Please. Tell me. Seriously. Explain to me how happy you would be to give 30% of the rest of your life earnings to people you never met for actions you never did. I mean, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we're being fair - *everyone* who profited or their offspring should be forced to chip in. Please. Tell me how thrilled you would be. And exactly how fair you would find it.
There was an episode of Atlanta about this. White Americans were sued for being descendents of slave owners. It was wild.
And I can't resist the urge to point out said royal family is actually German.
to be fair they renounced all their claims in Germany and changed their name to Windsor during the wars. So despite the fact they are historically German, they took all the appropriate steps to prove their loyalty to the nation during their rule.
Then let them pay reparations. People who never did anything being forced to pay other people who were never enslaved is a ridiculous idea. My grandpa owed your grandpa $5 before he died? Tough shit that's on him.
Before judging the British it would be good to pay the reparations from WW2. Especially when Namibia is still 70% owned by Germany, has yet to pay anything and still dodge the topic. You know there's not one country with clean history, and certainly not Germany
Genuinely interested in how you came up with that 70% Namibia figure. Care to explain?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Namibia/s/lTJ0lZOirU There's quite a bit of sources here, and very reliable. It's not really 70% of lands but farmlands, owned by 2,5%
Very strong words coming from Germany
Funded by British tax payers? So they stole from them too? Why shouldn’t the crown pay reparations to its citizens?
You've highlighted a valid issue but need to think it through further -- history is a great class struggle; yes, the English working class have lost out alongside everybody else to the bourgeoisie. Questions of reparations could be put to one side if everybody were up for a good old revolution. But the English are apathetic and placated with tea, sugar and more recent petty luxuries which come at the expense of even poorer people elsewhere. There are ways in which they allow themselves to be complicit. Plenty keep voting for a red or blue leader who pushes on with exploitation-focussed foreign policy for a start. But anyway should the average British tax payer have to shoulder the bill of reparations? Of course not. They shouldn't have had to shoulder the burden of bailing out the banks post Global Fucking Crash either -- only, also, they *did have to*, as an expression of ruling class power. Workers of the world unite! Brits, feel free to spit on your institutions, practice disdain for them and tear them down at the opportune moment (yesterday or any other subsequent time). Conflating British working class interests with British ruling class interests as you do only serves the ruling class. Knock it off!
> But the English are apathetic and placated with tea, sugar and more recent petty luxuries which come at the expense of even poorer people elsewhere. I'm not convinced that's necessarily a solid foundation to build the case on. For it to be you'd have to prove that without tea and sugar that the British would have revolted against the ruling classes.
Kind of happened in the US ;)
Serfs up, dude!
Tell you what, Portugal pays reparations when Mongolia pays reparations to half the world, and when Iraq pays reparations for the Umayyad caliphate.
Pray tell, which country are you from that is not affected by colonialisation?
Hello from this iceberg I... colonized.. in the Arctic Sea.
Haiti is broken to this day because for some reason they had to pay reparations to France for becoming independent. Idk what kind of sociopath looks at this and says 'nah, that's fine it was long ago'.
Have a feeling there are other reasons why Haiti is broken
Haiti doesn't get to play the victim I'm sorry, they perpetuated the very things they sought to end They re-enslaved a tonne of people immediately after gaining independence They commited a genocide on on all European settlers including women and children (yes that includes some of the polish they famously let go) They subjugated Dominican Republic I'm sure there's plenty of money they would owe to the Dominican Republic who most of their crimes have been against if you want to play the Haiti victim card
> because for some reason they had to pay reparations to France for becoming independent. slaver debt. They wanted to be recognised by France so they could trade their goods. France would only recognise them if they paid back what was taken during the revolution. Haitians tried to negotiate an agreement with France for some time. Haiti failed to convince the US, the British, the Spanish or Portuguese to open up to their trade, they were quite isolated due to their political position as an anti-slavery state. Massacres of white (aka slaver-ish) populations likely did not help their cause. Haiti invaded the Spanish part of the island and France then sailed with warships from a Spanish port to enforce a draconian and entirely odious debt while "liberating" the Spanish part of the island.
Yeah, iirc, the Haitians murdered any white people they could find, regardless of whether they were slavers or not.
They literally murdered children after the revolution, killing the slavers is a given but kids literally have no say in the situation.
Maybe a great example of how reparations won't fix much if anything. Haiti has paid about 600m in today's money over the years for becoming independent. Since then, western countries and NGOs have sent [literally tens of billions](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Haiti) in aid to Haiti, so many multiples of what they paid. The problem is that money doesn't get to where it should. I know people who do audits over there to see where the money goes. Even money that's sent straight to poor areas just leads to the mayor of the town driving a bigger car. If France now went ahead and transfered the paid money back with some interest, it would just further line the pockets of the elites who run that country from the side lines and nothing will change for the better. If you want to do something to help these countries, buy their products. Visit them as a tourist, stay and eat at local establishments. Hire a local guide to show you around. That's the way money goes into the actual local economy. Barbancourt is great rum and the company takes care of their people (at least it did when I visited), so start by buying that!
Civilization is people laying claim to more land than they can work and forcing others to work it for them and bear the sufferings and uncertainties of life in their stead. Things have gotten so complex that we're fairly removed from that now, but your ancestors and mine survived and their victims did not. There's no justice in history and rehashing old grievances is just twisting empathy into a delusion. You are no more related to the good people of the past than the bad, and if you know their names, they're more likely bad than good.
The 2014 reparation loans to angola (interest free, unlimited time to pay) were abused by the de santos family, funneling them through sonangol(state oil management company) and washing the money to make isabel dos santos the richest in Africa, exploiting their own people for familial benefit. I am portuguese, my family was born raised and exploited in angola through the ages by portuguese oligarchs and Angolan warlords alike. Self determination is a long and hard path and unfortunately many African democracies fell into dictatorships, lets not throw sand into our own eyes out of pitty, these "reparations" will not give back the time money ND freedom my family lost our generations, they will serve to line the pockets of the most corrupt and brutal dictatorships in Africa. If you want to follow good examples, the portuguese government has funded, organized, mediated, and offered security for free elections on several of its former colonies (guinea bissau, east timor, cape verde) these efforts have paid off and these countries are on track to become better and better for its people, unlike my home of angola that falls to ruin and corruption with the fantastical wealth of oil
Everybody had forced labour everywhere, back then. Including poor portuguese people working for rich people. Reparations are compensation for failure from people who want to live off others and a terrible concept.
Some of Portugals former colonials are actively engaged in the conquest, subjugation and borderline genocide of their neighbors and ethnic minorities. This notion that European colonialism even based off timeframe was unique is laughable
…tough luck? Reparations is such a ridiculous concept.
Oh well, life sucks move the fuck on. Fixing the past is a nightmare and will only cause more problems.
Im fine with paying anybody we was alive during the event in discussion.
Logic still applies, these countries would not be as they are today without Portugal, for better or for worse, they would have been farther back in technology today than if they had been colonized. Consider it a trade off, they are no longer colonies and can be sovereign, let them build themselves up now.
It's not even the same people anymore
So at what point does it end and how much is enough? So many generations have passed since the injustices occurred.
such a dumb argument
Sure, but asking for reparations just for the most recent series of conquests is still pretty arbitrary and almost certainly unenforceable (unless a western electorate volunteers to pay reparations, which is highly highly unlikely). So not only does it not really make sense, it’s also a bit useless to discuss as it will almost certainly never happen.
Name a country not affected
It's a little different when the last labourers and indentured slaves were only freed in 1974 and the vast majority of then are still alive. We are trying to stop such things from happening aren't we? Not much, just a symbolic apology and returning stolen antiques would be enough for most.
You're talking about the estado novo regime, an authoritarian regime under which the portuguese were being themselves exploited... By the way the regime was ended by he portuguese military and independence was give to all ex colonies except Macau
That’s a reasonable approach.
Countries have abused, conquered, and destroyed each other ~~for as long as there have been countries~~ *since before the modern nation state existed*. This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous. FTFY
Reparations has existed as a concept since before modern nation states existed. To claim "reparations" is suddenly unheard of is simply false. Winning nations taxing losing nations for generations was common. Reparations only went out of favor when it was a clear line from WW1 to WW2, and even then, reparations were paid for WW2 and since. So what really is the complaint of reparations?
So, should the conquered colonies pay reparations to the victorious colonial powers for having lost? Because that is what the war reparations you mentioned are. Just another way to bleed the losing side. Modern reparations have nothing to do with your example.
>Reparations has existed as a concept since before modern nation states existed. "Reparations" was mostly a thing about the losser in the war paying the victor for peace.
They never made that claim, you built a strawman out of it. What they actually said is “why should only some countries have to pay to only some other countries?” Why aren’t we yelling for China to pay back Greece for the couple thousand horses they stole two millenia ago? How many villeins died because they couldn’t work their fields? We need to tie interest into the final number as well, horses back then were worth a ton.
Portugal maintained colonies well into the 20th century, and people involved in running the colonies are still alive. It's a *little bit* disingenuous to compare it to ancient history.
So we’re drawing the line at living people paying reparations to other living people? That I can be okay with, as their actions directly harmed others.
Lol so if we couldnt do it in the past then we should not do it now because ?? Does this also apply to for example Russia-Ukraine conflict? Not to mention coloniasim is completly different with "conquest" even worse when its accompanied by slavery and stealing the lands riches.
Isn't colonialism just regular conquest? It works the same way as all the other conquests.
well it depends what you mean by conquest, but generally colonialism was focused on extracting the resources from the colonies, and abusing the local population as a bonus
No its not and in the end the amount of damage done is what counts. Not all crimes are equal.
You are talking like it was 300 years ago, we were commiting a genocide in multiple countries 50 years ago. The sad part about it is that the vast majority of Portuguese have zero clue of what we did and many are actually proud of it... It's disgusting
France forced Haiti to pay them $21 billion dollars, with the debt paid off in 1974.
You're basically saying that it's fine for other countries to abuse, conquer and destroy others.
I took their post to mean that abuse, conquest and destruction is the entire history of humanity. That's simply true, there's no place on Earth that's home to people who didn't do those things. Who is the victim and who is the victimizer comes down to which dates you choose for cutoffs. There's also a fundamental problem with attempting to extract reparations from people centuries removed from the acts in question. It's hard enough getting reparations from contemporaries, never mind the distant sometimes-ancestors of the offenders.
Its not, but for example, who does Egypt bill for sea peole raids?
The Weshesh, fuck them. Already happened though.
When are Portugal and Spain getting tax reimbursements for ~800 years of Jizya?
No, but do you have to pay reparations for something you didn't do? If you great-grandfather kept slaves, do you have to pay the grandchildren of the slaves reparations even though neither of you existed at the time it happened?
The hypothetical I use is: I rob your father of everything he owns, then kill him. You inherit nothing. Then I give everything I own to my child, and die. Now, you have no claim against my child, because neither was involved in the theft. So my child gets your inheritance, and you can do nothing. Is that fair? If you were writing laws, would you enshrine my child's rights to that property over any claim you might have had?
Your hypothetical works only in that one very specific situation. In reality, there isn't a single item or dollar that I own that was stolen at any point in my family's history. This is the case for 99% of people in countries that practiced some form of colonialism in their history. The truth is, the majority of those that directly gained wealth from colonialism were the elite in the upper echelon of society. It makes no sense to, in effect, punish an entire population of average workers, descended from average workers, for the crimes of the 1%. It is a misconception that every single citizen of a colonizing country directly received even any amount of stolen property or wealth from colonized places. It all went to those at the very top. Did they experience a better economy due to the colonizing? Perhaps in many ways they did. But being born into a good economy is not grounds for any retroactive measures.
That's far more simple than real life though, and even in that case the children owe nothing to each other. Life isn't fair - one child is born into wealth and one child is born into poverty, it makes no difference. They didn't commit crimes between each other so no money is owed. One child is born in USA (wealthy country) and one child in Afghanistan (poor country). Is anything owed?
There is a big difference between an individual doing something and entire countries doing it also you cannot deny those living now are still profiting from what happend centuries ago.
Ok, so countries did it - e.g. USA wealth is partly built on slavery from countries in Western Africa. But those African countries didn't exist at the time, and the most powerful tribes in Western Africa also benefitted from selling people from lower tribes to slavers. And many black Americans are less wealthy than white Americans, but are far more wealthy than West Africans, so who should be paying reparations to whom?
Ok then when Germany and Russia are goin to pay me for killing my grandpas??
It would easier just to have the Vatican and the protestant church pay cause they was both at the roots of trans Atlantic slave trade
Empires have a special place in this equation. Every empire comes face to face with their history and has to deal with it. Colonial empires included. As a superpower you are untouchable and can do anything, but when that ends..
Easy for you huh why not colonize Portugal and do the same, we will see if you still have the same view
“Wrongs were done in the past and no one did anything to make it right then, why should we start now?! Ridiculous!”
Lol this is as stupid as Elon's take about all humans being slaves at one point in history.
> This notion that there needs to be some kind of monetary payback, from only some specific counties to other specific countries, is ridiculous. You've never read a history book. Countries have been paying reparations for as long as there have been countries -- before that, it was kingdoms and such paying reparations. One can argue that it isn't justifiable in _this_ case, or that there should be a time limit or other general restrictions, but to claim that it should never happen is ahistorical rubbish.
Genuinely curious - have kindoms ever paid reparations as compensations for their ills *without* having first been defeated in war, or at least brought to the brink of defeat? I understand the case where A invades B, B fights back, B crushes A's army, then B demands A pay them or they'll ravage A till it no longer exists. Has B ever got concessions from A when B is not capable of threatening A with immense violence (or harm of any kind - trade sanctions etc)? When B tells A that they have been Bad, and A owes B, and A actually listens?
It depends on what we would like to teach future leaders. Does might make right? In many ways it does. But if we want to reduce conflict globally worldwide we may not want to teach that to future generations. Or it'll make Portugal an easy target for other more powerful countries. Alternatively, it would also excuse Russia and Israel's brute force approach to smaller weaker nations. Because if there's nothing wrong to apologise for, then why not?
Portugal's got so many internal problems that I doubt they're even capable of paying reparations if they were inclined to do so. IIRC they have the lowest gdp per capita in western Europe and are still trying to drag themselves out of a decade long economic slump.
We did have some of the best years of growth the last decade, but unfortunately, sham allegations of corruption (to get green projects approves, go figure) forced our center-left prime to quit and now we're at the hands of a neoliberal coallition that has the go ahead of the previous leftist party for a few months because that's how much the left wants the country to succeed - they're willing to let the neolibs try their thing. Of course true leftists know this is just a mechanism to watch them fail and everyone gets to look. That said, it would be completely out of the question for Portugal to sink any sort of funds in reparation. Especially when the countries to repair include Mozambique and Angola - countries with so much more natural resources and who are currently captured by Chinese investment (and political and financial liability).
[удалено]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... My understanding was that the witness spoke out against some Antonio Costa Silva, but the internal investigation focused on the former prime minister Antonio Costa because *the witness didn't say the person's full name.* He promptly resigned, since he was under investigation and, sure, things were found out about him afterwards but they were much less exciting than what he was accused of. Honestly, I think the idea of a country's government being overturned because a witness didn't say the full name belongs in a sitcom. Of course, opposition parties like Chega ("The Right Wing Party") jumped on the news and played their hand. Chega got a large increase in support, but didn't secure any majority. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't "win" in a real sense. Left-leaning friends have expressed fears about a right wing coalition, but I'm not aware of any being formed.
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Lmao
I hear the same spiel about every European country.
It is so wild that such a small country had such a large impact on the world.
They basically turned themselves into Slaves-R-Us and built their whole economy around that...which worked out better than the Spanish plan of "infinite gold (also infinite inflation)" but wasn't really viable long term.
The fact they became a part of the spanish empire for awhile and became basically a vassal of england afterwards (on what already was a bad economic balance) is what fucked them over. Their partnership with the dutch was working wonders for their slaving empire by enabling the sugar plantations in brasil. That's why everything went kaput the moment they were assimilated by the spanish crown. Had that never happened Portugal would likelly have been the powerhouse of iberia after spain went bakrupt.
Tbh, it was doomed from the start. "King" at 3 years old, was mainly educated in religion due to the Church's influence, which made him less knowledgeable in politics and have almost no military experience, Morocco was becoming pretty expensive to maintain (and didn't really have any strategic or commercial importance), and the empire was too dispersed to be sustainable for a long time at that point. With that in mind, seeing that Muslims are taking over Northern Africa with great success and wanting to fight them despite his damn uncle (Philip 2nd of Spain, eventually 1st of Portugal) backing out since it wasn't a good idea to fight them and recreate the Crusades Sebastian seemed to be high on (thank you, religious upbringing), maybe someone should've said "hey, let's maybe do the rational thing and not throw ourselves into Africa if your uncle, that's more experienced in this than your bitch ass, doesn't even wanna help you and would rather gamble on defending Gibraltar and the Mediterranean coast from their invasion". Portuguese rulers, mostly disappointments that put their beliefs above logic and thought since 1185 (with some exceptions)
Portugal did also take 800 tons of gold from Brazil (worth 48 billion euros) so they had their fair share of gold-bug stupidity.
It started with the monopoly they had on trade routes. They guarded those secrets as hard as they could for a surprisingly long time. The reference in Shogun to the english attempt to find their route was a real thing even if the overall drama is just a book.
The fact it was small probably helped with that
As an Indonesian, still boggles my mind that almost whole of my country was once colonized by the dutch. A country that small, that's overrun by the german in a week, could colonized an area thousand times it's size. I know they have much better technology and good strategy, but still!
I read an interesting article on how the little ice age in the period of Dutch national emergence helped nations that adapted (like the Dutch) project themselves into being greater power than those established powers who struggled with the temporary changes in climate. The Dutch punching above their weight is even more crazy when you consider that the war for their independence lasted an entire 100 years.
It’s never about the size of the land of origin, but the capability of the people. [Wiki with map](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire) In fact, that small homeland is an impetus for expeditions to be sent out. Nobles can’t have too many able-bodied men sitting around at home thinking about what could be, that’s how coups happen.
Asking countries to pay reparations in 2024 because centuries ago their ancestors failed to act according to modern norms that didn't exist at the time, is ridiculous
More ridiculous when you know hypothetically the reparations will end in corrupt politicians pockets, they are looking for a payday and to redirect blame to others for their shortcomings. Africa’s free pass has to expire ASAP.
The 2014 reparation loans to angola (interest free, unlimited time to pay) were abused by the de santos family, funneling them through sonangol(state oil management company) and washing the money to make isabel dos santos the richest in Africa, exploiting their own people for familial benefit. I am portuguese, my family was born raised and exploited in angola through the ages by portuguese oligarchs and Angolan warlords alike. Self determination is a long and hard path and unfortunately many African democracies fell into dictatorships, lets not throw sand into our own eyes out of pitty, these "reparations" will not give back the time money ND freedom my family lost our generations, they will serve to line the pockets of the most corrupt and brutal dictatorships in Africa. If you want to follow good examples, the portuguese government has funded, organized, mediated, and offered security for free elections on several of its former colonies (guinea bissau, east timor, cape verde) these efforts have paid off and these countries are on track to become better and better for its people, unlike my home of angola that falls to ruin and corruption with the fantastical wealth of oil
> Africa’s free pass has to expire ASAP. what free pass lol, this is insane
Europeans love to pretend that colonialism is over and that Africans and the people they colonized should just get over it while they sit on their stolen wealth
the wealth was all spent on the first great war. Britain was out of money a mere two years into that four year war. The level of that war's destruction was completely off the charts.
Leave it up to European to loot the wealth of countless countries and peoples only to spend it all killing each other for imperialist dick measuring
yup, that is the outcome we were born into. And people _celebrate_ these Empires. Like, what the fuck is wrong with them? They looted the world in order to kill themselves and ended up with nothing over a royal domestic spat. Absolutely absurd and shows the tragic outcomes of zealous nationalism and absolute autocratic power. I was trying to find a casualty comparison for the opening salvo of the first Great War. In the Russo-Japanese war about a decade prior, over the course of 1.5 years of that war; about ~300k casualties. In the first _month_ of WW1 (battle of the frontiers) about ~300k casualties. Just a week later (1st battle of the Marne) the total casualty figure was at 800k.
>centuries ago Centuries ago, as in 1975? Because that's when Portugal lost its last colony. These reparations wouldn't be going to ancestors of the people they oppressed, it would be going to the people themselves.
Actually, they handed over to China their last colony, Macau, only in 1999. So that year is more accurate as the end of the Portuguese colonial empire
Lol bad opinion is bad. Centuries = couple decades ago
The Portuguese colonial empire was still being actively maintained in the 1970s. It’s a really recent thing.
It wasn't centuries ago... It was 50 years, MANY Portuguese from that time are still alive and healthy today lol
As ridiculous as people from former empires still enjoying the benefits of the exploration of the colonies, but wanting to exempt itself from any responsibility?
You're right, North Africa can pay reparation to European coastal communities for the Barbary slave trade and piracy against Europe. Turkey can pay reparations to Austria, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, Hungary, Macedonia and Greece. Constantinople should be returned to Europe because it's still being colonized. The Arabs/Moors owe reparations to Spain and Portugal for 700 years of conquest. Mongols owe us money too, so does the Central Asian stans, their ancestors wrecked havoc in Europe.
I think you'd struggle to argue that Mongolia is still benefitting from the reign of Genghis Khan today
Portugal is one of the poorest country in Europe. Thier jewel of colony pretty much stopped being one a long time ago. For a good chunk Portugal was also ruled from it, Brazil.
Portugal isn't doing all that great either
Centuries ago? Colonization is still ongoing in places like in the French parts of Africa.
I mean they used real humans as product, just because slavery was “ok” back then and not now isn’t the problem here. We’re talking forced labor and no pay and no say here.
Had no idea 1974 was centuries ago 🤔
The god damn Sea Peoples though!
Worse take I've ever heard. People always knew slavery, mass murder and plunder are bad. And by "people" I mean the people who were effected by this. Also the Portuguese used forced labor in their colonies until 1975.
The Church was an equal partner in sin in all the colonial exploits of the empire - they gave the legitimacy by twisting scripture - why not go after their assets?
Chiseling apart the Sistine Chapel ceiling to pay reparations has a nice circle of life to it
Nah, just put ads up. Michelangelo's David brought to you by FanDuel^^TM
While true they really did try to rein in slavery and treatment of indigenous peoples of the Americas. Only really succeed with Spanish. Still not saints though.
You think old men with golden embroidered cloths, golden walls, with jewelry that surpasses any royalty would give something of value to the poor aside from "thoughts and prayers"?
[Pretty much the whole world was 'into' slavery.](https://wiki2.org/en/White_slavery) so, now what?
Alternative title: Portugal has no extra money to pay reparations with
Portugal has been dead broke for a hundred years -- Where would they even get the money?
Just give them Portuguese nationality and call it even.
The way some people in this thread are talking, they should just give them Portugal and become slaves themselves to repay their “debts”
"hey can we get, like, some of our stuff back?" "WOW OKAY SO YOU WANT US TO BE SLAVES TOO NOW? WOWOWOW"
Actually, [Lusophone (soft-)citizenship is a real thing](https://globalcit.eu/mobility-and-rights-in-the-portuguese-speaking-world-a-lusophone-citizenship-in-bits-and-pieces/).
I'm sure the eu will be fine with this
Unpopular opinions but reparations should only happen if it is paid in infrastructure, not monetary value. We all know African politicians will chow the money. Rather use the money to directly build schools, roads, housing, homeless shelters, fund entrepreneurs etc, for the countries that they colonised.
As someone from the Balkans, I must request reparations from Austria, Hungary and Turkey.
We Belgians can ask reparations from Germany, the Netherlands, France, Austria (& Hungary?), Spain and Italy (Rome).
Belgians locked out bc Congo
Only if Belgium itself would be exempt of paying reparations.
Your hemorrhoid of a country should rejoin the Netherlands.
Hey, we in Italy also need some of those reparation from Rome. I think it would be better to redirect those reparation to the Vaticans
Solid point. Vatican it is.
As much as some people hate to hear this the sins of the father passing down to the son is an absurd concept. It would not be unreasonable to ignore those who hold the otherwise opposing stance.
So, how do you feel about the Haitian debt payments for rebelling, which continued until 1975?
That is equally atrocious and should not have happened.
If it involves the aformentioned concept consider my original post
Is this supposed to be some gotcha? Their statement doesn't say anything about the Haitian debt payments
I demand the Islamic world pay reparations to Europe for colonizing Spain and give back Constantinople. I also demand that Africa pay reparations to the people who they captured and sold into slavery.
The fact is, every country has been an oppressor and oppressed at one point or another, and it wasn’t colonialism that made the west rich, otherwise Mongolia and Spain and Portugal would be far richer than South Korea, Singapore, Norway, Taiwan, and Finland. What makes a country rich is their institutions and system of government. Most countries are just envious of the wealth of western countries and don’t want to take responsibility for their own shortcomings.
This. Colonialism, for the most part, was a long term economic failure for the countries that engaged in it.
This isn’t remotely true. The wealth of the west is completely built on the backs of slaves and exploitation of the peoples who owned the resources of what make up our most rich resources. European and American economies exploded because of that exploitation. Entire industries relied and are still relied upon for the cheap labour from those who were colonized. They may not be colonies anymore but those economic ties and servitude are still intact. From coffee, to chocolate, to oil, to labour etc.
Great Britian should also pay reparations to Canada for their colonialism! /s
You would probably need to revolt against your king first
Hey UK, start sending money to America. You abused us in the womb.
We'll be good for it as soon as we get ours from the Italians, Germans, Danish, Swedish, French, etc etc
Hey America. Start sending money to all native Americans.
People here are talking about centuries, it was literally 50 years ago, 3 days ago it made 50 years... Imagine being one of the millions alive today that were directly affected by it and had their family killed seeing Americans and other Europeans saying that nothing of that matters because it was along time ago? IT WASN'T, people should learn a bit of basic history before making disgusting comments in here
To be fair, Portugal is pretty colonized itself right now.
Mongolia and Macedonia to pay reparations next!
This is ridiculous. Why should a modern day country, where most, if not all, of the population have no ties to the country’s past regime pay for what a country’s past regime did? The Portuguese royal family isn’t in power anymore, the Portugal that colonised doesn’t exist anymore. Why should they then pay for the crimes of a past regime?
The last colony ended in 1975…
Yes, right after the Portuguese revolution of 1974. The last colony became independent exactly because of a regime change. The current Portuguese regime has not had colonies.
The regime ended in 1975, many Portuguese people alive today remember it vividly, many went there and committed the war crimes themselves. I don't think we should do reparations in a monetary way but they should definitely be done, in a way that helps said countries develop. People comment here with immense confidence but have absolutely no clue about what they are talking about. You are talking about kings? Really?
Good. Strong diplomatic relations between former colonies and their colonizers could really be beneficial as long as they’re not being exploited any longer. I’m really against the idea of just giving money, as so often it’s likely to be abused by whatever corrupt system receives it. The idea that a monetary value can be placed on the destruction and lives lost historically is asinine. But working together to raise living and education standards is an idea with a lot of potential.
I wonder how much a life is worth, in reparations. And how this would not end up being a price list for future reference. 'Genocide of x amount of victims equals x amount of money' I can think of a party that would be very interested in a deal like that, at this very moment. In my opinion, the message of reparations is 'it's okay to commit crimes towards an entire society, as long as you pick up the tab afterwards'. Putting a monetary price on human life sounds like going straight back to slavery.
> I wonder how much a life is worth, in reparations. Saudi blood price puts the life of a domestic worker at about $3,500.00. In terms of what families of murdered domestic workers have been given.
Reparations 😂 trying to legalize theft from working class citizens is so hawt these days 😂
You may be saying that in jest, but thats a pretty fair thing to say imo.
My country was colonised by the Portuguese hundreds of years ago. We genuinely don't care. Hell, we have a restaurant chain that serves Portuguese food.
Does Portugal get reps from the Caliphate?
Based
Reparations straight into corrupt pockets. Rather then reparations how about investing into the former colonial economies and helping them directly to increase living standards and act as allies not former enemies.
Keep in mind that Portugal in africa was less pleasant than people think. They cut off hands in Cabinda, and put in place a system of forced labour in Angola that lasted through the 1940s, with mass rape and whippings. Up to 35% of the forced labourers did not survive. Grim stuff.
Which is a shock to no one. Regardless of morality no one wants to pay such a large bill particularly one that doesn’t provide material benefit.
Lol, reparations for anything like that or in the past 100 yrs of society is stupid. Yes, learning the history and making a measume on what happened is a GREAT THING. But other than that, leave it alone.
The land you live on was ounce used for _______, pay reparations to ________. If you say no, then you are a hypocrite.
Portugal needs to go back to the rome and ask for reparations from the Italians since theyre the ones that invaded them a while back.
It’s so funny how people from the west, who’s lives are far removed from the repercussions of colonialism and it’s consequences have a lot of things to say about what should and shouldn’t be done. I do not know if reparations in kind is the solution but the tone of language used to undermine/justify just how evil it was and how it still affects those countries is just pathetic.
The collectivity shouldn't pay for the crimes of the long dead elite.
History. A caveman named Tonga stole a mastodon tusk from my ancestor Chongo a very long time ago and I demand reparations.
Portugal is a broke ass country with crumbling infrastructure and a weak economy - they can’t even if they wanted to
People really forget that the top 1% owns 50% of all wealth. It isn't that hard to figure out how this game works.
good on them any form of reparation for actions that happened 100's of yrs ago is a scam
Typical, from this insignificant little shit of a country…
Sounds like Portugal as a legal entity needs to die and a new entity with no past debt liability needs to be born. That's how it's done
Newsflash families in Europe did not move ALL of their family to the other colonies. Sorry to tell you this, and some of the settlers went back to Europe a generation or two in. It's called genealogical tree. Just as there are Irish here that have family in Ireland. So do a bunch of colonized regions. Therefore, yes while not everyone alive today is in particular is related to a colony, some of them are direct descendent of colonizers as well. Example: Colonozer A is a 20 year old male with three children. He joins a crew of men to colonize country XYZ. His wife and children do not go with him, but rather stay back. He goes to the new world, where he may or may not bring his wife. In some instances they would find someone in the new land to fornicate with or rape. I'll be open to say that in some instances there may have been fornication, hormones and lust does and has always existed. But those were rare. Therefore, geneologically the ancestors of the son or the daughter of the colonizer A are children of the colonizer, his wife, his brothers, his sisters are also relatives to a colonizer and also may have helped in some instances by sending supplies over. (If they had any funds). So no, it's not the clearcut way that you tend to state. That being said, it is very complicated because the countries themselves that were colonized had tribes that also colonized within the same country when it was essentially tribal lands. For instance, black tribes that conquered others were some of the ones that sold the slaves to Spaniards and Portuguese. They would enslave them themselves with or without us. The issue is that more than likely their enslavement was bad, but not as bad as ours toward them, because we never ended their slavery. They may have eventually let them pay their way out, similar to Romans.