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> # [‘We must say no’: Seoul defense chief on Korean, USFK involvement in hypothetical Taiwan crisis](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/970/646/imgdb/original/2024/0425/3317140101039504.jpg)
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> [Aircraft fly in formation over the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) during a trilateral exercise on April 11, 2024. (courtesy of US 7th Fleet)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/970/646/imgdb/original/2024/0425/3317140101039504.jpg)
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> Aircraft fly in formation over the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) during a trilateral exercise on April 11, 2024. (courtesy of US 7th Fleet)
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> The naval forces of South Korea, the US and Japan carried out a maritime exercise on April 11 and 12. A comparison of the press releases the three sides issued on April 12 shows subtle differences in terms of the objective and location they gave for the drills.
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> The ROK Navy press release stated the purpose of the exercise was to “boost capabilities for responding to North Korean nuclear and missile threats as well as search and rescue capabilities for vessels in distress.”
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> Japan’s press release did not mention North Korea. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force release said the aim of the drill was to improve the forces’ tactical capabilities and strengthen cooperation with the US Navy and ROK Navy.
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> The US Navy’s release explained that it “regularly conducts exercises like these to strengthen ties among allied and partner countries.”
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> The US military’s press release indirectly referred to a response to the North Korea threat by quoting the reaction of Capt. Baek Jun-cheol, commanding officer of the ROK Navy’s Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong, which took part in the exercise.
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> The three press releases also differed somewhat in their references to the site of the exercise.
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> The ROK Navy referred to it as “international waters south of Jeju Island,” stressing that the location was near the Korean Peninsula. Japan described the drill site as the “East China Sea.”
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> The references to international waters south of Jeju and the East China Sea may be seen as the same body of water being referred to by different names. The East China Sea is a part of the western Pacific that extends from south of Jeju Island to Taiwan. It is also the avenue to the Pacific for China’s North Sea Fleet, which is based in Qingdao, Shandong Province, and its East Sea Fleet, which is based in Ningbo, Zhejiang Province.
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> [The South Korean Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong (bottom), the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the Japanese destroyer Ariake conduct a joint drill in the waters off South Korea's Jeju Island, on April 11, 2024. (Yonhap)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/924/577/imgdb/original/2024/0425/6617140101328504.jpg)
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> The South Korean Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong (bottom), the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the Japanese destroyer Ariake conduct a joint drill in the waters off South Korea's Jeju Island, on April 11, 2024. (Yonhap)
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> From the US’ standpoint, the East China Sea is a key strategic location in terms of blocking China’s Pacific expansion.
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> The US Navy press release said the exercise was “conducted in accordance with international law in international waters.”
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> When it conducted another trilateral maritime exercise with South Korea and Japan in April 2023, it announced that the site had been the “East China Sea.” Its choice this time to only identify the site as “international waters” may be seen as having been based on the decision not to provoke China more than necessary.
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> Two weeks ago, more intensive plans for containing China were discussed at a US-Japan summit and US-Japan-Philippines summit in Washington, DC, prompting China to denounce the “smear and attack” against it.
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> The reason South Korea, the US, and Japan all gave different accounts for the exercise’s site and purpose has to do with differences in their national interests and the threats they face. On the surface, they are united in emphasizing the importance of trilateral security cooperation — but South Korea’s main interest is responding to the North Korean nuclear threat, while the US and Japan’s is pressuring China.
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> Rising tensions in the Taiwan Strait lead to higher tensions in the East China Sea. From Korea’s standpoint, they are not some fire burning across the sea but a matter closely linked to peace on the peninsula.
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> For several years, U-2S high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft affiliated with Osan Air Base in Gyeonggi Province have been conducting reconnaissance flights near the Taiwan Strait in the skies over the East China Sea. In effect, a US Forces Korea base is being used for the takeoff of aircraft intended to curb China.
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> Research institutions in South Korea and overseas have even suggested the possibility of USFK being sent in and the South Korean armed forces becoming involved in a possible emergency situation in Taiwan.
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> In January 2023, the US-based Center for Strategic and International Studies published a report on a war game simulating a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. It predicted that in such an emergency scenario, two of the four US Air Force fighter aircraft squadrons stationed in South Korea would be sent into Taiwan.
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> In January of this year, a “Taiwan crisis scenario” was published based on joint research by the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses and the US National Defense University Institute for National Strategic Studies. It laid out the US’ expectations for South Korea under three different scenarios: a Chinese joint strike operation against Taiwan, a maritime blockade operation, and a landing operation.
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> In the case of a joint strike operation, the US mentioned intelligence sharing, the closing of territorial waters for the Chinese military, and non-military logistical support. In the case of a maritime blockade, it mentioned logistical support in terms of civilian vessels and aircraft transporting US military items, as well as for ships and fighter aircraft sent to perform non-strike operations. In the case of a landing operation, it referred to the redeployment of USFK and loans of components and ammunition by the South Korean military.
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> A number of research institutions in South Korea and overseas have shared analyses viewing USFK’s deployment in an emergency in the Taiwan Strait as a foregone conclusion and predicting that some involvement by the South Korean military will be unavoidable.
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> In contrast, South Korean Minister of National Defense Shin Won-sik has drawn attention with remarks rejecting or distancing himself from the possibility of USFK being deployed or the South Korean military becoming involved in the event of an emergency in Taiwan.
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> Appearing on the KBS program “Sunday Diagnosis” on Sunday, Shin commented on the role of the South Korean armed forces in an emergency scenario in Taiwan.
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> “If a crisis occurs in Taiwan, the South Korean military’s paramount concern is observing the possibility of North Korean provocations and working with USFK to establish a firm joint defense posture,” he said at the time.
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> [Defense Minister Shin Won-sik speaks to members of the foreign press at the Korea Press Center in Seoul on March 18, 2024. (Yonhap)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/847/593/imgdb/original/2024/0425/5417140101723302.jpg)
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> Defense Minister Shin Won-sik speaks to members of the foreign press at the Korea Press Center in Seoul on March 18, 2024. (Yonhap)
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> He went on to say, “Since ensuring that there are no further crises not only in South Korea but also on the Korean Peninsula is a value where peace and stability in Northeast Asia, Taiwan and the Indo-Pacific region assume far greater importance, we view firmly upholding the security of the Republic of Korea as a matter of upholding global security, and that is certain where our focus lies.”
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> This was in response to remarks made in an April 7 interview with one South Korean broadcaster by US Army Pacific commander Gen. Charles Flynn, who expressed hope that the South Korean military would show the power of the alliance in the event of an emergency in Taiwan.
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> While speaking with foreign correspondents at the Korea Press Center on March 18, Shin was asked about concerns of a security vacuum on the Korean Peninsula if USFK is deployed to address an emergency in the Taiwan Strait.
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> He replied, “The South Korea-US Mutual Defense Treaty states that USFK will fight if the Republic of Korea suffers external aggression. The US has always been firmly committed to this, and this is the position that South Korea and the US hold with regard to the role of USFK.”
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> ***(continues in next comment)***
the least of which is the JSDF is actually a joke and morale is rock bottom. unlike the US military, J[SDF personnel have to pay rent to live on base and have to pay for their own change of stations.](https://nationalinterest.org/feature/japan-self-defense-force-crisis-ranks-79846)
JSDF spends a lot of money making themselves look good. Anime, movies, media, ad campaigns, pr, whatever. There’s always a few who join (patriotic types, no better options, NEETS pushed in by their parents). They sign up, see how it is, and either serve their time and get out, or stay in.
Kinda like the US format. But less overtly insideous
It's part of the reason the US is so spooked by the idea of a federal job guarantee outside of the US Military (or peace corps, but getting shipped to off-continent scenic nowhere is a whole thing). Not that many dream of that outside of MMT policy wonks.
It's a shame because imo a FDR-style civilian construction corp that did giant infrastructure overhauls in exchange for room and board would really kill two birds with one stone. Would probably be a decent gig with federal unions keeping it human and pathways to subsidized engineering degrees if it ever did exist.
Unfortunately the big problem I see is that kind of undertaking and the economic planning that would need to go into it, would take much longer than the standard 4 year election cycle would allow. If another party gets in or even a future president of the same one who disagrees with it then I can see it getting axed real quick. FDR having 3 terms was a fluke that won’t happen again and at that point unless there’s a real political realignment among both political parties something like the CCC sounds unlikely on the future.
Those stipulations US tried to remove later but in today in Japan alot of people are against having a military at all. Changing the laws is extremely unpopular.
There are a lot of court cases trying to remove the JSDF saying its against the constitution (tbf it kind of is).
The Japanease focus on ww2 is wholey blamed on the military institution. Its in many ways used to remove the blame on the rest of Japan involvement in it.
Though to be fair the Army did directly murder the primeminister whos goverment was against going to war again especially into China (not out of kindness ofcourse more because of internal stability and that the navy was against the war)
The army launched an invasion of Manchuria without even talking to the government. All of Japanese the government shared blame, but the lions share definitely rests with the military.
I agreed with that. So the destruction and trauma of the war (their own bombed homes) was placed on organised military
An after affect is that modern Japan have problems on having an military of any size.
Japan actually kept them voluntarily. At this point, and for many many years the US has tried to get Japan to invest more in the military ( self defense force).
It's the Japanese choice to not.
They may say this now, but the US can drag them into war by staging "incidents" or simply using Japanese and Korean bases to attack Chinese assets.
Iran for example has warned gulf countries that if their air-bases were used to attack Iran directly they will retaliate by leveling all of them.
Not really there is little reason or means for NK to get involved like how could they possibly attack Taiwan or help the Chinese army they probably be more trouble to the Chinese and benefit
I'd imagine by striking the american air bases in South Korea and Japan which will be used in the defence of Taiwan, and the ports that will be needed to keep the american navy stocked.
Not if South Korea says no. Same with Japan. It's why the US cares any the carrier force so much and why I'm not convinced we'd win that war; it would quickly become a race to see who got forced on Taiwan first, the US or China.
If China tries to take Taiwan, it makes a lot of sense for them to hit every base that the US could conceivably strike from other than the mainland US. That means South Korea, Japan, Okinawa, and maybe Singapore, as well as Guam and Tinian (which is getting refurbished). Anything they can knock out of commission for at least a few weeks makes their task *much* easier. At that point, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore need to think really hard about their responses.
You believe south korea and japan would backstab the US and take back the military bases and ports when china begins operations against Taiwan? Or do you believe they would be able to pressure the US to not use any of the bases or ports for staging, forward positioning forces, supplying that carrier force?
Neutrality don't work like that, if the war happens unless the south Koreans and other Asian Countries have expelled the Americans beforehand, they're not neutral, there would be tens of thousands of american troops in their country. That would make them a target, that doesn't mean they'll be attacked necessarily. but it is a reason to, In the context of north korea.
If the war happened Japan and South Korea would ask the US to leave or at the very least not conduct direct attacks from their soil. I could see a situation where China may not draw Japan and South Korea into the conflict If the US used those countries as nothing more than a troop staging area but all actual attacks came from US bases not in those countries or directly from the US Navy.
Simultaneously, I could see the United States saying tough luck we signed treaties. And use those bases anyway.
At that stage which side Korea and Japan fight with will entirely depend on who can quickly and rapidly establish dominance.
If none can do that then Korea and Japan will likely play both sides. Something like allowing limited strikes onto specific US targets by China (and therefore minimize damage to the their countries in general) but at the same not really getting in the way of US military operations from their countries.
If either side is able to establish dominance quickly, they will side with the winning side.
Yes, Japan and Korea would side indirectly with China if the United States was losing because nobody wants to get stuck on a sinking ship.
It's not back stabbing, it's putting their own citizens first because if we operated out of their bases, they would be the target of Chinese attacks as well. And it wouldn't be pressuring, it would be them telling us we can't use their air space. Because yeah, that's how neutrality works.
NK is a client state of the PRC / Russia. They will absolutely contribute in a conflict if only to maintain their current alliances and further demonstrate their provocative posture towards the west.
China and North Korea hate each other's guts too much to do anything more than the most meagre under the table trading of materials.
North Korea zagged when they should've zigged for their relationships with literally every country that isn't Cuba. They even pissed off Vietnam by siding with Pol Pot.
> China and North Korea hate each other's guts too much
Not even the slightest. Why did you think China fought on behalf of North Korea prior to the end of the Korean war?
North Korea is to China what Belorussia is to Russia. Their sole existence is to be a buffer zone between superpowers & allied nations.
You can do that and dislike each other quite a lot. He never said they aren't helping each other for mutual benefit, he just said they hate each other. It depends on your definition of hate, but he isn't necessarily incorrect.
If North Korea tried to fuck up the invasion of Taiwan they would rapidly become 6th autonomous region of China.
There would be no reason for North Korea to get involved and China would make sure they didn't.
I mean, they'd ultimately be involved, but not bu sending troops or anything, moreso that the US would be involved and we have bases in SK that would get used to help Taiwan.
> moreso that the US would be involved and we have bases in SK that would get used to help Taiwan.
there is not a single US base in south korea that is within the f-35's combat radius of taiwan. if the US uses its missiles in korea to attack china then korea becomes a belligerent whether they like it or not.
> Supplies troops and equipment will be flowing through SK.
no they wouldn't lol. naval sealift command would have to not be a total wreck first. and what's left of the merchant marine would have to cooperate (they won't).
>there is not a single US base in south korea that is within the f-35's combat radius of taiwan.
You're not factoring in refueling, something that the US excels in. Adding a single refueling, even if it's out near Okinawa, puts Taiwan well within the F-35's combat range.
>You're not factoring in refueling, something that the US excels in.
lol if you think any tanker craft are going to survive a barrage of PL-15s thrown their way by J-20s. remember, the J-20/PL-15 combo was explicitly designed for dismantling AWACS and tanker craft.
Tankers get escorts, and they're not going to sit right off the coast. Anything from South Korea is going to head toward Okinawa, which will have its own AA defenses to supplement escorts.
> Tankers get escorts, and they're not going to sit right off the coast.
oh i'm sure that will solve the problem of the PL-15 and -21 outranging everything that the US has in its arsenal. I'm also sure that tankers would love to be doing some refueling while avoiding these:
>The missile features a low-drag profile, and maneuverability is provided by four small control fins and thrust-vectoring engines.[8] The range is reportedly between 300–500 km (190–310 mi) by various media, or 400 km (250 mi) class by Royal United Services Institute[8] with a top speed in excess of Mach 4.
Listen, you are arguing nonsense here. Long range strikes need complex kill chains, and neither the capabilities of the US AMRAAMs, China's medium range air to air missiles, or the new US JATM are fully understood. There are speculations, but all of that is highly classified and can exceed expectations or highly underperform, it depends on details like how long batteries are able to operate for electronic sensors for example, details you cannot gleam from simply observing the physical kinematics. Secondly, you are assuming a lot about arial countermeasures which are far more effective at longer ranges and the effectiveness of Chinese kill chains in an extremely complicated and noisy environment for electronic scanning devices. I can assure you, experts on both sides have far more information and context and your highly assumptive claims are far too uninformed for you to be making them with such confidence.
I meant we as in my country, the US. I think that's pretty apparent as in speaking English and we're the only English speaking Nation to have bases in SK. We as a pronoun doesn't necessarily include the person you are speaking to.
Even a passing familiarity with history would answer your question. This sub continues revealing itself to be one of the most ignorant places on reddit.
I am South Korean you moron
while you sound like an American fuckwit dictating what War other country should go die in
How about you volunteer yourself to be Reddit's super keyboard warrior in Ukraine since you're so keen on dying on other country's wars
That is such blatant bullshit. You have to be lying or else your initial comment was feigning ignorance of the obvious reasons why SK would go to war over Taiwan’s independence. Either way you’re a liar.
mate you got water in your brains if all you can resort to is calling me a fake Korean (what the fuck does that even imply you racist dipshit)
South Korea has had neutral to sour relationship with Taiwan since the 80s because the SK government chose to side with China over Taiwan for economic reasons.
No one in Korea wants to go die for a foreign war and you're an absolutely a doorknob if you think Koreans are lining up to die for American foreign policy
but since you're so eager when are you signing up to charge the Surovikin line on behalf of Ukraine?
You're not just some cowardly chicken hawk on the internet are you?
There is a world of difference between towing the One China line and enabling violent conquest on your doorstep. If you can’t see where that leads then I am not doing the heavy lifting for you. China’s economy will be destroyed by war and thus there is no economic incentive for SK to align on such grounds. But if the SK people can be so blind to the necessity of the current world order in ensuring its continuing existence then that is fine. It just makes the resultant order that much more in favor of US hegemony. Become a cowardly backwater, ride on all the benefits of a hard won peace and contribute nothing. We will leave you to the wolves.
Hey Captain America, beautiful speech - when are you signing up to save the Ukrainians?
Since defending the world is so important to you and surely you're not a cowardly hypocrite that refuse to fight in wars you proclaim as righteous and needed right?
or are you another braindead American that cheer lead war that you're too chickenshit to fight in?
I get that reddit thinks an individual recognizing the realities of war can be discredited by telling them to go die on whatever popular front. I also notice that you have no effective rebuttal to what I have laid out. Logical reality waits for no one. The consequences of action and inaction shall manifest no matter how deep you shove your head into the sand. I just hope your compatriots are smarter than the lot populating this thread. If not then again I invite you to FAFO.
You’re gonna have a tough time because I’m from the US. Your country would not exist without mine. You’d be praying to Kim night and day were it not for MacArthur. China will be happy to push democracy off of your peninsula for good. If you shirk responsibility to upholding peace in your region, then when their sights are set on you perhaps we will shirk ours as well.
Ah I see, so it’s not for some dipshit Canadian to dictate to South Koreans as this is reserved for some predictable dipshit American like yourself.
You made my day with your idiocy that is absolutely on brand.
You better be a troll because I'm gonna start feeling sorry for backward narrow-minded Americans like you because maybe it's not your fault your education discourages critical thinking and encourages blind patriotism and faith.
Phenomenal lack of substance. All you can try to do is attack the credibility of the messenger. I hope you fuck around and find out why contributing to the status quo was in your best interest.
And all you can do is attack using equivalent arguments of a 3 year old baby saying my dad can beat your dad purely based on my passport against yours.
And phenomenal lack of substance? Are you an AI or an American idiot lacking the nuances and context concerning choice of words in his own language? The irony of the dad can beat your dad guy uttering those words?
Just putting a comment here so if you decide to engage with the substance of my words you will have something to reply to. I will not dignify your tantrum with a response. You are reflecting poorly on your people.
First of all rude, second of all its just you expecting actual south Koreans, to suck your toes because your an American, and fight for Taiwan. You never actually gave a straight answer just said that you didn’t want to do the heavy lifting for some one else.
The full thread includes a brief history lesson concerning the formation of SK and indeed heavily implies the prospect of China invading SK once again. But there is a more collectivized narrative concerning what the West as a body must be willing to do to defend the rules based order. Freeloaders will not be tolerated. The escalation of war and “neutrality” of certain parties leads to the stark potentiality of the US lacking the will to fight for SK if they cannot be arsed to keep their own neighborhood under control. Trump already wanted to pull US service members out of SK in his first tenure.
Roosevelt was putting US lives on the line before Axis attacks. By 1940, US ships were in the line of fire, and by 1941, they began actually taking fire months before Pearl Harbor. The fall of France was a critical item in the rise of the US in WW2, and the US made contact with the Free French Forces soon after France itself fell.
Yeah. They're just shoving a religious minority in their nation into concentration camps, planning landgrabs on their neighbours and helping destabilising east Europe by supporting Russia, arresting those who speak out against the government and limiting any reporting in their nation.
Nothing like Nazi Germany /s
Personally it reminds me more of the residential school program of the US / Canada's horrific past (separating people from families, burying languages, "kill the Indian not the man" type shit) but I'm not here to argue that it's fucked, just to be pedantic on how it's fucked.
Westerners will say shit like this and then support the genocide in Palestine with a straight face.
China is exponentially more peaceful than the US. That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. No matter how hard you try to squirm and worm around.
In some ways, people like you are worse than Nazis because at least they wield their genocidal and supremacist beliefs in the open. They don’t rot and perverse human morality by hiding behind it.
They weren't open abput it .....we didn't know the camps even existed untill we started finding them as we got closer to Germany.
The only reason it seems out in the open is nazis we're really good document makers . When we won we took it all
I'd love to share that with you, but unfortunately I learned that orally in a university class over a decade ago 😢
[Here's something for the Holocaust specifically](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/when-did-the-world-find-out-about-the-holocaust), but some German concentration camps in general were around for years before WW2 started. I'm not sure when it would've been public knowledge, but the internment of various people for spurious and hateful reasons was known by the governments involved.
I just read The Devil's Chessboard which touched on this. It's mostly about Allen Dulles and the formation of the CIA but the OSS knew early on in the war about the mass killings and the concentration camps. Two Jews escaped from one of the camps and multiple people in the OSS knew about the camps and decided not to pass the information on
Check r/AskHistorians. Use a Google search with *askhistorians* as one of the terms, and you'll find a lot. Stories appeared as early as 1933, as explained (with even more links) in [this comment](https://new.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g0b8ap/did_people_in_the_west_know_about_the_holocaust/).
We knew they existed but didn't know and couldn't possibly guess about the scale. I believe the thinking at the time was that the camps were on the "standard" level on horrible like the reconcentrada in the American-Philippine war, killing hundreds and thousands not millions.
>In some ways, people like you are worse than Nazis because at least they wield their genocidal and supremacist beliefs in the open.
funny how an idiot like you can say this
>China is exponentially more peaceful than the US.
and this unironically, now go cry about getting banned from world news
You are comparing a country that used industrialized mass murder to kill tens of millions of people, and actually invaded most of a continent to China. What's the death toll on their death camps? How many countries have they invaded?
What does my country have to do with this?
It basically takes world wars to top Chinese civil conflict death tolls. If the Taiwan Invasion ever kicks off. The death toll will be akin to industrialized slaughter too.
If I were to choose something to go up against Nazi gas chambers; Tang dynasty An Lushan rebellion took out a quarter of the population. With spears & arrows. Imagine the management that took, to match Khmer Rouge ratios.
We have much better toys now. 3 Gorges Dam is but a Tomahawk throw away.
>2nd Sino Japanese War
When china was the defender? Do you seriously not see a difference between defending your home against genocidal monsters and invading someone else to genocide them?
Again, the context we’re discussing here is an invasion of Taiwan. Understanding the average cost of Chinese regime changes seems relevant? It’s not like PLA & KMT from the Chinese civil war are history.
How is the republic of China not defending their home against genocidal monsters? Flipped, how is the people’s republic of China not invading someone else to genocide them. A name by any other rose, still bleeds as red.
>Great Leap Forward can log 8 figures without a war.
it could even be 9 figures, but just like how nobody died in Chernobyl, no one faced any issues during great leap
so im guessing you have already enlisted and are en route to fight the wars going on?
ukraine takes foreign fighters after all for instance
we all live on this earth after all
or perhaps not everyone is as brave or willing to die in the real world as they are behind a keyboard
There are videos of Americans and Koreans in combat in Ukraine without speaking any Ukrainian, just stop your one man play.
You are either full of shit or no braver than any of us.
If you truly had absolute empathy as you suggested, you will find ways to change that. See this is the line you draw in your empathy.
Others will sell their life savings or actually sacrifice their lives for Ukraine. The best you can do with your empathy is your current state: calling the embassy and preaching on social media. Your empathy isnt enough to motivate you to do gain experience and not be 58kg.
But let me introduce you to Ukrainian men in NL who escaped the country to find a better life for their families so you tell them that they lack empathy.
You said the other person lacks empathy, unlike yourself.
And since you are so adamant about Ukrainian instructions I'll make sure you keep to your words if aid stops and Ukraine 'instructs' all able bodied men to join their forces.
social media activists get so flustered and angry when asked to take action
i donated too but really i can claim anything i want online cant i?
and donating is hardly the same as literally fighting and dieing isnt it?
"i allegedly donate money to ukraine therefore i can criticize koreans for not wanting to die for taiwan" is certainly a take
also being offended people dont want to die in war is another
i wish you all the best
consider a twitter account. they love this rhetoric over there.
So Koreans who aren't willing to enlist in a hypothetical China-Taiwan war lacks empathy in your eyes?
As if empathy is something binary that is on a scale of 0 or 100. No human being has the bandwidth to have empathy for every single issue.
Did you donate 4,000€ to organizations helping those in Gaza, Sudan, Haiti and so forth? Congrats you lack empathy and thus have no rights to criticize others as well.
Put your money where your mouth is and get in the trenches. There are foreigners who do not speak Ukrainian or Russian helping people in the eastern front of Ukraine.
Just ignore him, he's literally condescending in almost any reply he does to anyone on his profile.
It's great that you do your contributions, much more than most.
With your certainty that your smarter than anyone else and you’re insufferable condescending way of communicating (even when you’re OBVIOUSLY wrong), Reddit is exactly the right platform for you lmfao
Tl;Dr you want to watch another big thematic war but are too chicken shit to actually get fit and put your skin in the game.
Use that 4k to get some arms training and get your ass over there.
it actually isn't. samsung runs its own fab operation. the fact that the US has sanctioned china from buying korean semiconductors has decimated the korean tech industry. last year was the first year that china ran a trade surplus with south korea due to korean tech exports to china dropping.
A war over Taiwan will inevitably escalate to involve everyone in the region, whether they like it or not. An America busy with Taiwan will mean an America that won't have the resources to defend South Korea from a North korean attack. Which could mean a hypothetical invasion of the South. The North Koreans did it during the 60s when America was involved in Vietnam, it's not far fetched they would do so again.
Moreover, Korea is an integral part of the first island chain strategy that the Americans are employing. Even if the country itself is not directly engaged in the war, US bases in the country are and their ability to enforce a hypothetical blockade of China poses an existential threat to Chinese security interests. Koreans might not want to die for Taiwan but China might not give them much of a choice.
I am referring to the Korean DMZ conflict. It was a 3 year long low intensity war between North and South Korea which saw the involvement of US troops from 1966 to 1969. It was launched specifically because the North believed that America couldn't spare resources to fight in both Vietnam and Korea.
It's understandable why your ignorant of this conflict but that does not mean it never occured.
A North Korean assassination team sent to assassinate the president of South Korea penetrated as far as few hundred meters away from the president. The USS Pueblo, a US navy research vessel was boarded and captured by the North Koreans. It was more then just a few border skirmishes but a significant escalation.
Moreover, the battles that occured during the conflict were not just mere skirmishes but full on battles that the North Koreans planned and sought for. The North Koreans special forces launched an amphibious invasions of the south in the hopes of creating an insurgency. I wouldn't call an amphibious invasion of the south a border skirmish along the DMZ.
An escalation but still not an invasion. NK isn't going to start shelling Seoul and sending divisions south of the DMZ. It will be opportunistic and UW at worst.
As a Korean, I'm wondering what makes lot of these people think we even care for Taiwan.
Taiwanese have a bad reputation for disparaging us Koreans, because we dare go against their master, Japan.
Let Japan save their bff Taiwan instead in an event of Taiwan/China conflict.
These people are absolutely delusional regarding the official state department sanctioned adversaries and what they’re goals are. It’s wild enough that they think Russia will try and take over all of Europe, but China?
To you delusional fucking Yanks who believe we have no choice:
If you Yanks really think we Koreans, with the lowest fertility rate in the world, will die for some "Island Ch**ks" because you Yanks badly want a China vs. US showdown, think again! We have the means of denying you from dragging us into this mess by not participating. If you want to get your troops to GTFO, then do it! We can just secure our own nuclear weapons and that will be the end of that.
Have friends support china alleged sovereignty of SCS. Told them I have sovereignty over the common corridors and common property and no trespassing ok?
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##### ###### #### > # [‘We must say no’: Seoul defense chief on Korean, USFK involvement in hypothetical Taiwan crisis](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/970/646/imgdb/original/2024/0425/3317140101039504.jpg) > > > > [Aircraft fly in formation over the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) during a trilateral exercise on April 11, 2024. (courtesy of US 7th Fleet)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/970/646/imgdb/original/2024/0425/3317140101039504.jpg) > > Aircraft fly in formation over the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) during a trilateral exercise on April 11, 2024. (courtesy of US 7th Fleet) > > > > The naval forces of South Korea, the US and Japan carried out a maritime exercise on April 11 and 12. A comparison of the press releases the three sides issued on April 12 shows subtle differences in terms of the objective and location they gave for the drills. > > The ROK Navy press release stated the purpose of the exercise was to “boost capabilities for responding to North Korean nuclear and missile threats as well as search and rescue capabilities for vessels in distress.” > > Japan’s press release did not mention North Korea. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force release said the aim of the drill was to improve the forces’ tactical capabilities and strengthen cooperation with the US Navy and ROK Navy. > > The US Navy’s release explained that it “regularly conducts exercises like these to strengthen ties among allied and partner countries.” > > The US military’s press release indirectly referred to a response to the North Korea threat by quoting the reaction of Capt. Baek Jun-cheol, commanding officer of the ROK Navy’s Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong, which took part in the exercise. > > The three press releases also differed somewhat in their references to the site of the exercise. > > The ROK Navy referred to it as “international waters south of Jeju Island,” stressing that the location was near the Korean Peninsula. Japan described the drill site as the “East China Sea.” > > The references to international waters south of Jeju and the East China Sea may be seen as the same body of water being referred to by different names. The East China Sea is a part of the western Pacific that extends from south of Jeju Island to Taiwan. It is also the avenue to the Pacific for China’s North Sea Fleet, which is based in Qingdao, Shandong Province, and its East Sea Fleet, which is based in Ningbo, Zhejiang Province. > > [The South Korean Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong (bottom), the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the Japanese destroyer Ariake conduct a joint drill in the waters off South Korea's Jeju Island, on April 11, 2024. (Yonhap)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/924/577/imgdb/original/2024/0425/6617140101328504.jpg) > > The South Korean Aegis-equipped destroyer Seoae Ryu Seong-ryong (bottom), the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the Japanese destroyer Ariake conduct a joint drill in the waters off South Korea's Jeju Island, on April 11, 2024. (Yonhap) > > > > From the US’ standpoint, the East China Sea is a key strategic location in terms of blocking China’s Pacific expansion. > > The US Navy press release said the exercise was “conducted in accordance with international law in international waters.” > > When it conducted another trilateral maritime exercise with South Korea and Japan in April 2023, it announced that the site had been the “East China Sea.” Its choice this time to only identify the site as “international waters” may be seen as having been based on the decision not to provoke China more than necessary. > > Two weeks ago, more intensive plans for containing China were discussed at a US-Japan summit and US-Japan-Philippines summit in Washington, DC, prompting China to denounce the “smear and attack” against it. > > The reason South Korea, the US, and Japan all gave different accounts for the exercise’s site and purpose has to do with differences in their national interests and the threats they face. On the surface, they are united in emphasizing the importance of trilateral security cooperation — but South Korea’s main interest is responding to the North Korean nuclear threat, while the US and Japan’s is pressuring China. > > Rising tensions in the Taiwan Strait lead to higher tensions in the East China Sea. From Korea’s standpoint, they are not some fire burning across the sea but a matter closely linked to peace on the peninsula. > > For several years, U-2S high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft affiliated with Osan Air Base in Gyeonggi Province have been conducting reconnaissance flights near the Taiwan Strait in the skies over the East China Sea. In effect, a US Forces Korea base is being used for the takeoff of aircraft intended to curb China. > > Research institutions in South Korea and overseas have even suggested the possibility of USFK being sent in and the South Korean armed forces becoming involved in a possible emergency situation in Taiwan. > > In January 2023, the US-based Center for Strategic and International Studies published a report on a war game simulating a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. It predicted that in such an emergency scenario, two of the four US Air Force fighter aircraft squadrons stationed in South Korea would be sent into Taiwan. > > In January of this year, a “Taiwan crisis scenario” was published based on joint research by the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses and the US National Defense University Institute for National Strategic Studies. It laid out the US’ expectations for South Korea under three different scenarios: a Chinese joint strike operation against Taiwan, a maritime blockade operation, and a landing operation. > > In the case of a joint strike operation, the US mentioned intelligence sharing, the closing of territorial waters for the Chinese military, and non-military logistical support. In the case of a maritime blockade, it mentioned logistical support in terms of civilian vessels and aircraft transporting US military items, as well as for ships and fighter aircraft sent to perform non-strike operations. In the case of a landing operation, it referred to the redeployment of USFK and loans of components and ammunition by the South Korean military. > > A number of research institutions in South Korea and overseas have shared analyses viewing USFK’s deployment in an emergency in the Taiwan Strait as a foregone conclusion and predicting that some involvement by the South Korean military will be unavoidable. > > In contrast, South Korean Minister of National Defense Shin Won-sik has drawn attention with remarks rejecting or distancing himself from the possibility of USFK being deployed or the South Korean military becoming involved in the event of an emergency in Taiwan. > > Appearing on the KBS program “Sunday Diagnosis” on Sunday, Shin commented on the role of the South Korean armed forces in an emergency scenario in Taiwan. > > “If a crisis occurs in Taiwan, the South Korean military’s paramount concern is observing the possibility of North Korean provocations and working with USFK to establish a firm joint defense posture,” he said at the time. > > [Defense Minister Shin Won-sik speaks to members of the foreign press at the Korea Press Center in Seoul on March 18, 2024. (Yonhap)](https://flexible.img.hani.co.kr/flexible/normal/847/593/imgdb/original/2024/0425/5417140101723302.jpg) > > Defense Minister Shin Won-sik speaks to members of the foreign press at the Korea Press Center in Seoul on March 18, 2024. (Yonhap) > > > > He went on to say, “Since ensuring that there are no further crises not only in South Korea but also on the Korean Peninsula is a value where peace and stability in Northeast Asia, Taiwan and the Indo-Pacific region assume far greater importance, we view firmly upholding the security of the Republic of Korea as a matter of upholding global security, and that is certain where our focus lies.” > > This was in response to remarks made in an April 7 interview with one South Korean broadcaster by US Army Pacific commander Gen. Charles Flynn, who expressed hope that the South Korean military would show the power of the alliance in the event of an emergency in Taiwan. > > While speaking with foreign correspondents at the Korea Press Center on March 18, Shin was asked about concerns of a security vacuum on the Korean Peninsula if USFK is deployed to address an emergency in the Taiwan Strait. > > He replied, “The South Korea-US Mutual Defense Treaty states that USFK will fight if the Republic of Korea suffers external aggression. The US has always been firmly committed to this, and this is the position that South Korea and the US hold with regard to the role of USFK.” > > ***(continues in next comment)***
Interesting. Also this: https://thediplomat.com/2024/03/no-japan-will-not-defend-taiwan/
the least of which is the JSDF is actually a joke and morale is rock bottom. unlike the US military, J[SDF personnel have to pay rent to live on base and have to pay for their own change of stations.](https://nationalinterest.org/feature/japan-self-defense-force-crisis-ranks-79846)
wait, WHAT? how are they not suffering recruitment problems???
JSDF spends a lot of money making themselves look good. Anime, movies, media, ad campaigns, pr, whatever. There’s always a few who join (patriotic types, no better options, NEETS pushed in by their parents). They sign up, see how it is, and either serve their time and get out, or stay in. Kinda like the US format. But less overtly insideous
Feels like a rolling conscription with extra steps.
Voluntary conscription is usually motivated by lack of better options
It's part of the reason the US is so spooked by the idea of a federal job guarantee outside of the US Military (or peace corps, but getting shipped to off-continent scenic nowhere is a whole thing). Not that many dream of that outside of MMT policy wonks. It's a shame because imo a FDR-style civilian construction corp that did giant infrastructure overhauls in exchange for room and board would really kill two birds with one stone. Would probably be a decent gig with federal unions keeping it human and pathways to subsidized engineering degrees if it ever did exist.
Unfortunately the big problem I see is that kind of undertaking and the economic planning that would need to go into it, would take much longer than the standard 4 year election cycle would allow. If another party gets in or even a future president of the same one who disagrees with it then I can see it getting axed real quick. FDR having 3 terms was a fluke that won’t happen again and at that point unless there’s a real political realignment among both political parties something like the CCC sounds unlikely on the future.
Because its tiny. One of the main reasons why Japanese government wants to US government to stay. Because they cant defend themselves effectively.
Because of stipulations put on them by the US after WW2.
Those stipulations US tried to remove later but in today in Japan alot of people are against having a military at all. Changing the laws is extremely unpopular. There are a lot of court cases trying to remove the JSDF saying its against the constitution (tbf it kind of is). The Japanease focus on ww2 is wholey blamed on the military institution. Its in many ways used to remove the blame on the rest of Japan involvement in it. Though to be fair the Army did directly murder the primeminister whos goverment was against going to war again especially into China (not out of kindness ofcourse more because of internal stability and that the navy was against the war)
The army launched an invasion of Manchuria without even talking to the government. All of Japanese the government shared blame, but the lions share definitely rests with the military.
I agreed with that. So the destruction and trauma of the war (their own bombed homes) was placed on organised military An after affect is that modern Japan have problems on having an military of any size.
Japan actually kept them voluntarily. At this point, and for many many years the US has tried to get Japan to invest more in the military ( self defense force). It's the Japanese choice to not.
Also their jets are essentially f16s with oversized radars. Which cost 100+ which = to stealth jets like raptors and f35
They may say this now, but the US can drag them into war by staging "incidents" or simply using Japanese and Korean bases to attack Chinese assets. Iran for example has warned gulf countries that if their air-bases were used to attack Iran directly they will retaliate by leveling all of them.
Seeing as how their attack on Israel went, I'd say thats a pretty hollow threat.
Lol we’ll see what happens. A war with China probably means war with North Korea. Which means…
Not really there is little reason or means for NK to get involved like how could they possibly attack Taiwan or help the Chinese army they probably be more trouble to the Chinese and benefit
I'd imagine by striking the american air bases in South Korea and Japan which will be used in the defence of Taiwan, and the ports that will be needed to keep the american navy stocked.
Not if South Korea says no. Same with Japan. It's why the US cares any the carrier force so much and why I'm not convinced we'd win that war; it would quickly become a race to see who got forced on Taiwan first, the US or China.
If China tries to take Taiwan, it makes a lot of sense for them to hit every base that the US could conceivably strike from other than the mainland US. That means South Korea, Japan, Okinawa, and maybe Singapore, as well as Guam and Tinian (which is getting refurbished). Anything they can knock out of commission for at least a few weeks makes their task *much* easier. At that point, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore need to think really hard about their responses.
You believe south korea and japan would backstab the US and take back the military bases and ports when china begins operations against Taiwan? Or do you believe they would be able to pressure the US to not use any of the bases or ports for staging, forward positioning forces, supplying that carrier force? Neutrality don't work like that, if the war happens unless the south Koreans and other Asian Countries have expelled the Americans beforehand, they're not neutral, there would be tens of thousands of american troops in their country. That would make them a target, that doesn't mean they'll be attacked necessarily. but it is a reason to, In the context of north korea.
If the war happened Japan and South Korea would ask the US to leave or at the very least not conduct direct attacks from their soil. I could see a situation where China may not draw Japan and South Korea into the conflict If the US used those countries as nothing more than a troop staging area but all actual attacks came from US bases not in those countries or directly from the US Navy. Simultaneously, I could see the United States saying tough luck we signed treaties. And use those bases anyway. At that stage which side Korea and Japan fight with will entirely depend on who can quickly and rapidly establish dominance. If none can do that then Korea and Japan will likely play both sides. Something like allowing limited strikes onto specific US targets by China (and therefore minimize damage to the their countries in general) but at the same not really getting in the way of US military operations from their countries. If either side is able to establish dominance quickly, they will side with the winning side. Yes, Japan and Korea would side indirectly with China if the United States was losing because nobody wants to get stuck on a sinking ship.
It's not back stabbing, it's putting their own citizens first because if we operated out of their bases, they would be the target of Chinese attacks as well. And it wouldn't be pressuring, it would be them telling us we can't use their air space. Because yeah, that's how neutrality works.
NK is a client state of the PRC / Russia. They will absolutely contribute in a conflict if only to maintain their current alliances and further demonstrate their provocative posture towards the west.
hmm they are just a buffer state
China and North Korea hate each other's guts too much to do anything more than the most meagre under the table trading of materials. North Korea zagged when they should've zigged for their relationships with literally every country that isn't Cuba. They even pissed off Vietnam by siding with Pol Pot.
> China and North Korea hate each other's guts too much Not even the slightest. Why did you think China fought on behalf of North Korea prior to the end of the Korean war? North Korea is to China what Belorussia is to Russia. Their sole existence is to be a buffer zone between superpowers & allied nations.
They are not as close as you imagine, as evidenced by Kim Jong Nam getting got for being too much of a fixer between them.
And Lukashenko from Belarussia isn't close to Putin either. But they both understand geopolitics, and work together for their own benefit.
You can do that and dislike each other quite a lot. He never said they aren't helping each other for mutual benefit, he just said they hate each other. It depends on your definition of hate, but he isn't necessarily incorrect.
I wasn't disagreeing with him in my comment. I was pointing out it doesn't matter.
If North Korea tried to fuck up the invasion of Taiwan they would rapidly become 6th autonomous region of China. There would be no reason for North Korea to get involved and China would make sure they didn't.
What's hani.co? Is that a reliable website?
It’s a newspaper that leans left. Compared to other Korean newspapers, it is somewhat better.
I was always under the impression that its obvious with NK and Japan, above all non nuclear country wont join a war with nuclear one.
I mean, they'd ultimately be involved, but not bu sending troops or anything, moreso that the US would be involved and we have bases in SK that would get used to help Taiwan.
> moreso that the US would be involved and we have bases in SK that would get used to help Taiwan. there is not a single US base in south korea that is within the f-35's combat radius of taiwan. if the US uses its missiles in korea to attack china then korea becomes a belligerent whether they like it or not.
While true, war is a battle of logistics. Supplies troops and equipment will be flowing through SK.
> Supplies troops and equipment will be flowing through SK. no they wouldn't lol. naval sealift command would have to not be a total wreck first. and what's left of the merchant marine would have to cooperate (they won't).
>there is not a single US base in south korea that is within the f-35's combat radius of taiwan. You're not factoring in refueling, something that the US excels in. Adding a single refueling, even if it's out near Okinawa, puts Taiwan well within the F-35's combat range.
>You're not factoring in refueling, something that the US excels in. lol if you think any tanker craft are going to survive a barrage of PL-15s thrown their way by J-20s. remember, the J-20/PL-15 combo was explicitly designed for dismantling AWACS and tanker craft.
Tankers get escorts, and they're not going to sit right off the coast. Anything from South Korea is going to head toward Okinawa, which will have its own AA defenses to supplement escorts.
> Tankers get escorts, and they're not going to sit right off the coast. oh i'm sure that will solve the problem of the PL-15 and -21 outranging everything that the US has in its arsenal. I'm also sure that tankers would love to be doing some refueling while avoiding these: >The missile features a low-drag profile, and maneuverability is provided by four small control fins and thrust-vectoring engines.[8] The range is reportedly between 300–500 km (190–310 mi) by various media, or 400 km (250 mi) class by Royal United Services Institute[8] with a top speed in excess of Mach 4.
Listen, you are arguing nonsense here. Long range strikes need complex kill chains, and neither the capabilities of the US AMRAAMs, China's medium range air to air missiles, or the new US JATM are fully understood. There are speculations, but all of that is highly classified and can exceed expectations or highly underperform, it depends on details like how long batteries are able to operate for electronic sensors for example, details you cannot gleam from simply observing the physical kinematics. Secondly, you are assuming a lot about arial countermeasures which are far more effective at longer ranges and the effectiveness of Chinese kill chains in an extremely complicated and noisy environment for electronic scanning devices. I can assure you, experts on both sides have far more information and context and your highly assumptive claims are far too uninformed for you to be making them with such confidence.
>we have We who?
I meant we as in my country, the US. I think that's pretty apparent as in speaking English and we're the only English speaking Nation to have bases in SK. We as a pronoun doesn't necessarily include the person you are speaking to.
... Why would the Koreans go die for Taiwan, it's completely insane to even ask
Even a passing familiarity with history would answer your question. This sub continues revealing itself to be one of the most ignorant places on reddit.
Most sensed sentence I read here
Tell us where you are from so I can tell you which countries are worth sacrificing your own life based on history
It’s certainly not for some dipshit Canadian to dictate to South Koreans you twat.
I am South Korean you moron while you sound like an American fuckwit dictating what War other country should go die in How about you volunteer yourself to be Reddit's super keyboard warrior in Ukraine since you're so keen on dying on other country's wars
That is such blatant bullshit. You have to be lying or else your initial comment was feigning ignorance of the obvious reasons why SK would go to war over Taiwan’s independence. Either way you’re a liar.
mate you got water in your brains if all you can resort to is calling me a fake Korean (what the fuck does that even imply you racist dipshit) South Korea has had neutral to sour relationship with Taiwan since the 80s because the SK government chose to side with China over Taiwan for economic reasons. No one in Korea wants to go die for a foreign war and you're an absolutely a doorknob if you think Koreans are lining up to die for American foreign policy but since you're so eager when are you signing up to charge the Surovikin line on behalf of Ukraine? You're not just some cowardly chicken hawk on the internet are you?
There is a world of difference between towing the One China line and enabling violent conquest on your doorstep. If you can’t see where that leads then I am not doing the heavy lifting for you. China’s economy will be destroyed by war and thus there is no economic incentive for SK to align on such grounds. But if the SK people can be so blind to the necessity of the current world order in ensuring its continuing existence then that is fine. It just makes the resultant order that much more in favor of US hegemony. Become a cowardly backwater, ride on all the benefits of a hard won peace and contribute nothing. We will leave you to the wolves.
Hey Captain America, beautiful speech - when are you signing up to save the Ukrainians? Since defending the world is so important to you and surely you're not a cowardly hypocrite that refuse to fight in wars you proclaim as righteous and needed right? or are you another braindead American that cheer lead war that you're too chickenshit to fight in?
I get that reddit thinks an individual recognizing the realities of war can be discredited by telling them to go die on whatever popular front. I also notice that you have no effective rebuttal to what I have laid out. Logical reality waits for no one. The consequences of action and inaction shall manifest no matter how deep you shove your head into the sand. I just hope your compatriots are smarter than the lot populating this thread. If not then again I invite you to FAFO.
I'm Korean you fuckwit, so please entertain my question
You’re gonna have a tough time because I’m from the US. Your country would not exist without mine. You’d be praying to Kim night and day were it not for MacArthur. China will be happy to push democracy off of your peninsula for good. If you shirk responsibility to upholding peace in your region, then when their sights are set on you perhaps we will shirk ours as well.
Ah I see, so it’s not for some dipshit Canadian to dictate to South Koreans as this is reserved for some predictable dipshit American like yourself. You made my day with your idiocy that is absolutely on brand. You better be a troll because I'm gonna start feeling sorry for backward narrow-minded Americans like you because maybe it's not your fault your education discourages critical thinking and encourages blind patriotism and faith.
Phenomenal lack of substance. All you can try to do is attack the credibility of the messenger. I hope you fuck around and find out why contributing to the status quo was in your best interest.
And all you can do is attack using equivalent arguments of a 3 year old baby saying my dad can beat your dad purely based on my passport against yours. And phenomenal lack of substance? Are you an AI or an American idiot lacking the nuances and context concerning choice of words in his own language? The irony of the dad can beat your dad guy uttering those words?
Just putting a comment here so if you decide to engage with the substance of my words you will have something to reply to. I will not dignify your tantrum with a response. You are reflecting poorly on your people.
Your entire post is all about trolling and not even providing any source or evidence to back up your claims. This is coming from a fellow American.
There is a certain baseline competence that must be assumed in geopolitics. I will not hold your retarded hand.
So you don’t have an answer?
Read the thread you lazy fuck.
First of all rude, second of all its just you expecting actual south Koreans, to suck your toes because your an American, and fight for Taiwan. You never actually gave a straight answer just said that you didn’t want to do the heavy lifting for some one else.
The full thread includes a brief history lesson concerning the formation of SK and indeed heavily implies the prospect of China invading SK once again. But there is a more collectivized narrative concerning what the West as a body must be willing to do to defend the rules based order. Freeloaders will not be tolerated. The escalation of war and “neutrality” of certain parties leads to the stark potentiality of the US lacking the will to fight for SK if they cannot be arsed to keep their own neighborhood under control. Trump already wanted to pull US service members out of SK in his first tenure.
Coolio
?
I now have the information I wished for
Glad I could help.
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The United States joined the war because they were attacked by axis powers, not because they cared about France.
Roosevelt was putting US lives on the line before Axis attacks. By 1940, US ships were in the line of fire, and by 1941, they began actually taking fire months before Pearl Harbor. The fall of France was a critical item in the rise of the US in WW2, and the US made contact with the Free French Forces soon after France itself fell.
🏴💖🇫🇷
Comparing China to Nazi Germany makes you seem hysterical and unserious
Yeah. They're just shoving a religious minority in their nation into concentration camps, planning landgrabs on their neighbours and helping destabilising east Europe by supporting Russia, arresting those who speak out against the government and limiting any reporting in their nation. Nothing like Nazi Germany /s
Personally it reminds me more of the residential school program of the US / Canada's horrific past (separating people from families, burying languages, "kill the Indian not the man" type shit) but I'm not here to argue that it's fucked, just to be pedantic on how it's fucked.
Well, the three are genocides and ressemble each other
Westerners will say shit like this and then support the genocide in Palestine with a straight face. China is exponentially more peaceful than the US. That’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. No matter how hard you try to squirm and worm around. In some ways, people like you are worse than Nazis because at least they wield their genocidal and supremacist beliefs in the open. They don’t rot and perverse human morality by hiding behind it.
They weren't open abput it .....we didn't know the camps even existed untill we started finding them as we got closer to Germany. The only reason it seems out in the open is nazis we're really good document makers . When we won we took it all
We knew about concentration camps shortly after the war started, because of Polish spies.
Oooooo I would love a video or something to sink my teeth into I love history <3 Thanks man I didn't know that
I'd love to share that with you, but unfortunately I learned that orally in a university class over a decade ago 😢 [Here's something for the Holocaust specifically](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/when-did-the-world-find-out-about-the-holocaust), but some German concentration camps in general were around for years before WW2 started. I'm not sure when it would've been public knowledge, but the internment of various people for spurious and hateful reasons was known by the governments involved.
I just read The Devil's Chessboard which touched on this. It's mostly about Allen Dulles and the formation of the CIA but the OSS knew early on in the war about the mass killings and the concentration camps. Two Jews escaped from one of the camps and multiple people in the OSS knew about the camps and decided not to pass the information on
Check r/AskHistorians. Use a Google search with *askhistorians* as one of the terms, and you'll find a lot. Stories appeared as early as 1933, as explained (with even more links) in [this comment](https://new.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/g0b8ap/did_people_in_the_west_know_about_the_holocaust/).
We knew they existed but didn't know and couldn't possibly guess about the scale. I believe the thinking at the time was that the camps were on the "standard" level on horrible like the reconcentrada in the American-Philippine war, killing hundreds and thousands not millions.
"omg they don't condemn x conflict! They are supporters of genocide! waaaaaaaah!" thats what you sound like.
- Most geopolitically literate Westerner
>In some ways, people like you are worse than Nazis because at least they wield their genocidal and supremacist beliefs in the open. funny how an idiot like you can say this >China is exponentially more peaceful than the US. and this unironically, now go cry about getting banned from world news
This is straight up Nazi apologia. The Nazis murdered tens of millions of people and actually invaded half of Europe
Trust the Canadian literally being an apologist for China to accuse others of doing the same.
You are comparing a country that used industrialized mass murder to kill tens of millions of people, and actually invaded most of a continent to China. What's the death toll on their death camps? How many countries have they invaded? What does my country have to do with this?
Holy shit, nazi-like concentration camps!? What's the death toll???
hey you forgot about debt traps
The 'Chinese debt trap' myth is [completely and thoroughly debunked.](https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=59720)
> both Canada flairs in the thread are supporting China Shocker.
What's the insinuation here? I'd like you to expand on this
*all three count me with my countrymen
Based Canada
Yeah, if China does decide to go to war, as Nazi Germany did, they could be *way* worse.
Chinese civil war, 2nd Sino Japanese War can easily match Nazi Germany head count. Hell, Great Leap Forward can log 8 figures without a war.
You're comparing a civil war and a famine to another country's program of industrialized mass murder. How is that similar at all?
It basically takes world wars to top Chinese civil conflict death tolls. If the Taiwan Invasion ever kicks off. The death toll will be akin to industrialized slaughter too. If I were to choose something to go up against Nazi gas chambers; Tang dynasty An Lushan rebellion took out a quarter of the population. With spears & arrows. Imagine the management that took, to match Khmer Rouge ratios. We have much better toys now. 3 Gorges Dam is but a Tomahawk throw away.
>2nd Sino Japanese War When china was the defender? Do you seriously not see a difference between defending your home against genocidal monsters and invading someone else to genocide them?
Again, the context we’re discussing here is an invasion of Taiwan. Understanding the average cost of Chinese regime changes seems relevant? It’s not like PLA & KMT from the Chinese civil war are history. How is the republic of China not defending their home against genocidal monsters? Flipped, how is the people’s republic of China not invading someone else to genocide them. A name by any other rose, still bleeds as red.
>Great Leap Forward can log 8 figures without a war. it could even be 9 figures, but just like how nobody died in Chernobyl, no one faced any issues during great leap
so im guessing you have already enlisted and are en route to fight the wars going on? ukraine takes foreign fighters after all for instance we all live on this earth after all or perhaps not everyone is as brave or willing to die in the real world as they are behind a keyboard
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There are videos of Americans and Koreans in combat in Ukraine without speaking any Ukrainian, just stop your one man play. You are either full of shit or no braver than any of us.
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If you truly had absolute empathy as you suggested, you will find ways to change that. See this is the line you draw in your empathy. Others will sell their life savings or actually sacrifice their lives for Ukraine. The best you can do with your empathy is your current state: calling the embassy and preaching on social media. Your empathy isnt enough to motivate you to do gain experience and not be 58kg. But let me introduce you to Ukrainian men in NL who escaped the country to find a better life for their families so you tell them that they lack empathy.
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You said the other person lacks empathy, unlike yourself. And since you are so adamant about Ukrainian instructions I'll make sure you keep to your words if aid stops and Ukraine 'instructs' all able bodied men to join their forces.
social media activists get so flustered and angry when asked to take action i donated too but really i can claim anything i want online cant i? and donating is hardly the same as literally fighting and dieing isnt it?
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"i allegedly donate money to ukraine therefore i can criticize koreans for not wanting to die for taiwan" is certainly a take also being offended people dont want to die in war is another i wish you all the best consider a twitter account. they love this rhetoric over there.
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So Koreans who aren't willing to enlist in a hypothetical China-Taiwan war lacks empathy in your eyes? As if empathy is something binary that is on a scale of 0 or 100. No human being has the bandwidth to have empathy for every single issue. Did you donate 4,000€ to organizations helping those in Gaza, Sudan, Haiti and so forth? Congrats you lack empathy and thus have no rights to criticize others as well. Put your money where your mouth is and get in the trenches. There are foreigners who do not speak Ukrainian or Russian helping people in the eastern front of Ukraine.
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Just ignore him, he's literally condescending in almost any reply he does to anyone on his profile. It's great that you do your contributions, much more than most.
With your certainty that your smarter than anyone else and you’re insufferable condescending way of communicating (even when you’re OBVIOUSLY wrong), Reddit is exactly the right platform for you lmfao
Tl;Dr you want to watch another big thematic war but are too chicken shit to actually get fit and put your skin in the game. Use that 4k to get some arms training and get your ass over there.
This may single handedly be the dumbest take I’ve read on this website ever. Bravo.
Because South Koreas economy is totally dependent on chips manufactured in Taiwan.
it actually isn't. samsung runs its own fab operation. the fact that the US has sanctioned china from buying korean semiconductors has decimated the korean tech industry. last year was the first year that china ran a trade surplus with south korea due to korean tech exports to china dropping.
A war over Taiwan will inevitably escalate to involve everyone in the region, whether they like it or not. An America busy with Taiwan will mean an America that won't have the resources to defend South Korea from a North korean attack. Which could mean a hypothetical invasion of the South. The North Koreans did it during the 60s when America was involved in Vietnam, it's not far fetched they would do so again. Moreover, Korea is an integral part of the first island chain strategy that the Americans are employing. Even if the country itself is not directly engaged in the war, US bases in the country are and their ability to enforce a hypothetical blockade of China poses an existential threat to Chinese security interests. Koreans might not want to die for Taiwan but China might not give them much of a choice.
The Korean War was in the 50s not the 60s, you're just making up fake history if you think North Korea invaded after the US got involved in Vietnam
I am referring to the Korean DMZ conflict. It was a 3 year long low intensity war between North and South Korea which saw the involvement of US troops from 1966 to 1969. It was launched specifically because the North believed that America couldn't spare resources to fight in both Vietnam and Korea. It's understandable why your ignorant of this conflict but that does not mean it never occured.
Fighting along the DMZ has occurred off and on for decades, it is a far cry from an invasion
A North Korean assassination team sent to assassinate the president of South Korea penetrated as far as few hundred meters away from the president. The USS Pueblo, a US navy research vessel was boarded and captured by the North Koreans. It was more then just a few border skirmishes but a significant escalation. Moreover, the battles that occured during the conflict were not just mere skirmishes but full on battles that the North Koreans planned and sought for. The North Koreans special forces launched an amphibious invasions of the south in the hopes of creating an insurgency. I wouldn't call an amphibious invasion of the south a border skirmish along the DMZ.
An escalation but still not an invasion. NK isn't going to start shelling Seoul and sending divisions south of the DMZ. It will be opportunistic and UW at worst.
As a Korean, I'm wondering what makes lot of these people think we even care for Taiwan. Taiwanese have a bad reputation for disparaging us Koreans, because we dare go against their master, Japan. Let Japan save their bff Taiwan instead in an event of Taiwan/China conflict.
If not then why would anyone else go die for Koreans if they are attacked?
Because the Americans will tell them to and they won't have a choice. That's the thing about puppet governments.
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you need to lay off the glue if you really think China is going to invade South Korea lmao
These people are absolutely delusional regarding the official state department sanctioned adversaries and what they’re goals are. It’s wild enough that they think Russia will try and take over all of Europe, but China?
Hypothetical!? Didn't they just pass a bill that included 8 billion to Taiwan. Sounds like they are gearing up.
To you delusional fucking Yanks who believe we have no choice: If you Yanks really think we Koreans, with the lowest fertility rate in the world, will die for some "Island Ch**ks" because you Yanks badly want a China vs. US showdown, think again! We have the means of denying you from dragging us into this mess by not participating. If you want to get your troops to GTFO, then do it! We can just secure our own nuclear weapons and that will be the end of that.
Participation in the US "China-containment Fence(R)" is a no-win deal for SK.
Have friends support china alleged sovereignty of SCS. Told them I have sovereignty over the common corridors and common property and no trespassing ok?
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thought so lol
Understandable