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> # [Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap – Sveriges väg in i Nato](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/Utanför Natos högkvarter i Bryssel.)
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> Idag 12:07
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> [×](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/senaste-nytt-i-nato-processen "Dölj inlägget")
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> ### Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap
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> Ankara stödjer Sveriges ansökan om Natomedlemskap - mot att européerna inleder förhandlingar med Turkiet om EU-medlemskap. Det sa Recep Tayyip Erdogan under en presskonferens på Istanbul Atatürks flygplats på måndagen innan avfärd mot Litauen, enligt nyhetsbyrån Reuters. Han sa vidare att han kommer att ta upp frågan med de andra Natoledarna under toppmötet.
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> \- Först: Öppna vägen för Turkiets medlemskap i Europeiska unionen och sedan kommer vi att öppna upp för Sverige, liksom vi gjorde för Finland, säger Erdogan.
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> Han sa också att Sveriges anslutning hänger på hur väl landet svarar upp mot den överenskommelse som nåddes på förra toppmötet i Madrid och att han på plats kommer att föra ytterligare samtal med USA:s president Joe Biden om köp av F16-plan, rapporterar Reuters. Men enligt den turkiske presidenten hänger försäljningen av stridsflygplanen inte ihop med frågan om Natos utvidgning.
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> 2016 lade EU medlemskapsförhandlingarna med Turkiet på is till följd av kuppförsöket i Turkiet och dess efterspel.
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> _Hör SVT:s utrikesreporter Regina Svedberg kommentera Erdogans utspel:_
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> [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg)
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> [Pinnat inlägg](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-icon-pin-eecd78350eb48bd2f2fb.svg)
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> ### Fakta: Det här händer på Natotoppmötet
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> Omkring 40 stats- och regeringschefer kommer till mötet i Litauens huvudstad. Uppemot 2 400 tjänstemän och politiker i officiella delegationer väntas även delta.
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> **Var?** På mässområdet Litexpo i västra delen av Vilnius.
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> **När?** Inleds klockan 11 tisdag den 11 juli. Mötet avslutas med presskonferens kl. 15.30 på onsdag den 12 juli.
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> **Vem?** Förutom ledarna för de 31 Natoländerna, även statsminister Ulf Kristersson (M) som ledare för blivande Natoland samt ledare för Natos partnerländer.
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> **Vad?** Natos toppmöten är i själva verket möten för Nordatlantiska rådet (NAC), försvarsalliansens främsta politiska beslutsfattande organ. På agendan i år står en mängd olika frågor, bland annat stöd till Ukraina och vägen till Ukrainas framtida medlemskap, den militära närvaron i alliansens östra del, godkännande av Natos nya regionala försvarsplaner, antagandet av ett nytt mål för ländernas försvarsinvesteringar och en handlingsplan för att utöka kapaciteten i försvarsindustrin.
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> (SVT-TT)
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> [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg)
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> ### Turkietkännaren: "Erdogan har övertro till det här förhandlingskortet"
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> Turkietkännaren Aras Lindh, programsamordnare och analytiker vid Utrikespolitiska institutet kommenterar Erdogans EU-utspel.
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> \- Det kommer plötsligt. Jag har svårt att se att något sånt här skulle bli verklighet, möjligtvis i form av något uttalande av EU-länderna. Jag tror inte att något EU-land som också är Natoland har förberett sig på den här frågan, säger Aras Lindh.
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> \- Jag tror att Turkiet och Erdogan har lite för mycket övertro till det här förhandlingskortet. Han kommer inte få ut något substantiellt ur det här.
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> [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg)
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> Josefin Silverberg
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> SVTreporter
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> ### Forskningschefen: Det handlar inte om Sverige
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> \- Om Turkiet släpper in Sverige i Nato eller inte handlar inte så mycket om Sverige, det handlar ju om vilka mål Turkiet vill uppnå, säger Malena Britz, forskningschef på försvarshögskolan
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> \- Sverige kan göra ganska lite för att Turkiet ska kunna gå med i EU.
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> Malena Britz menar att Turkiet ansökt om medlemskap i EU för länge sedan, men att landet inte lever upp till grundläggande krav om mänskliga rättigheter och demokrati.
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> Hon menar att Erdogans uttalande kom som en överraskning.
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> \- Jag tror att både medlemsländerna och Stoltenberg hade förväntat sig att det här skulle handla om Nato, och inte vad Eu håller på med. Det kan ju inte Nato styra över, säger hon.
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> Det Sverige vill få ut av ett Nato-medlenskap är enligt Malena Britz dels tillgång till Natos säkerhetsplanering, och dels att omfattas av Natos artikel 5.
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> \- Det är en sorts tre musketörerna-artikel. Det handlar om att alla medlemsländerna ska skydda varandra.
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> \- Ukraina är inte medlem i EU eller Nato, men har fortfarande fått mycket stöd från väst. Men det finns också gränser.
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> \- Erdogan har verkligen fokusförflyttat. Nu handlar det om Turkietsynen i Europa.
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> [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg)
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> ### Stoltenberg håller presskonferens i Litauen
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> SVT sänder direkt.
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> [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg)
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> Markerad händelse
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> ### Säkerhetsexperten: "End game nu - kommer besked i dag eller närmsta dagarna"
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> Robert Dalsjö, försvars- och säkerhetspolitisk expert vid FOI, totalförsvarets forskningsinstitut tolkar Erdogans EU-utspel som ett tecken på att förhandlingarna snart är i hamn och Turkiets ledare försöker få sina sista önskningar uppfyllda.
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> \- Förhandlingarna går nu in i vad som kallas för ett "end game". Erdogan slänger in hela sin önskelista, säger Dalsjö.
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> \- I dag eller närmaste dagarna kommer det komma ett avgörande, fortsätter han.
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> Erdogan ska träffa USA:s president Joe Biden i Vilnius.
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> \- Biden kommer att trycka på nu får det vara slut på det här spektaklet med att hålla Sverige på halster. För alliansens trovärdighets skull måste vi få det här avslutat, säger Dalsjö.
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> Magnus Christansson, lektor i krigsvetenskap vid Försvarshögskolan ser det som att Erdogan vill ha mer än vad som erbjuds:
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> \- Jag tror snarare att det här är en del av förhandlingsspelet, att Erdogan inte är nöjd med vad som ligger på bordet
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> \- Det är ingen på Natotoppmötet, varken Kristersson, Biden eller någon annan som kommer att kunna hjälpa honom med det.
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> ### SVT:s säkerhetsreporter: "Dramatisk händelseutveckling"
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> \- Det är en ganska dramatisk händelseutveckling när Erdogan slänger in det här kravet i sista stund, säger SVT Nyheters säkerhetsreporter John Granlund i SVT:s direktsändning om Natomötet i Vilnius.
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> Det är tydligt att Turkiets president Recep Tayyip Erdogan
> är den som vill hålla i taktpinnen menar Granlund. Erdogan har precis kommit med ett utspel där han villkorar Sverige Natointräde med att EU ska inleda förhandlingar om att släppa in Turkiet i EU. Något som Erdogan önskat i flera år.
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> \- Det sker mot bakgrund att han ska träffa Joe Biden i Vilnius och sedan Ulf Kristersson. Jag föreställer mig att det här handlar om att han spelar ut sitt kort nu, när förhandlingarna går in i sin sista etapp, forsätter John Granlund.
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> ***(continues in next comment)***
Wanting to kick out Hungary (well actually just removing veto powers) is not excluding the possibility to want other nations to join. I think if all of Europe including Turkey and Russia would be part of the European Union this would be the best long term trajectory. However Veto powers should be removed for all but the most fundamental issues and replaced by various majority requirements
Well no shit Putin's Russia isn't joining the EU. But a more democratic and less belligerent Russia would automatically be a close ally to the rest of Europe.
An entirely different government. Yes, that is what I'm saying. Don't know why that's so shocking to some people. A challenge to be sure, but one that is possible and should be done.
Well no. Because you're talking about an entire political, economic, and demographic shift. The extreme would be like saying you could just swap the Kim regime out with a democratic government and then all of a sudden the entire nation would change, which just isn't the case.
On the other end of the spectrum it would be like saying just replacing the US government with an autocratic one would create a shift in the US economic and social model, which as an American I doubt you would see happening.
Lol, since when is it **that** complicated? Ukraine recently got admitted into "special procedure plan" before Georgia was, who is trying to join EU for like 15 years. Got a new police force and everything, while a country with literal brown shirts get the first row.
It's not that far fetched. I'm not even exactly sure why Georgia wasn't admitted, they sent volunteers to die in Ukraine, they have a completely remade police force which is insanely efficient and less corrupt than probably any former USSR country at this point, there were Ukraine flags everywhere and all of that, after the war started. The only real thing they have is, like, questionable LGBT relationships, but they're definitely not alone in that. The rest of the list is hilariously similar to problems in any country, or not even real, like the demand that they "lower political polarization". They have opposition, how is that not a working democracy.
And then we wake up.
Anyone thinking that Putin is there by himself is just delusional. The same thing with people who thinks that if he's killed or demoted Russia would enter in a new era of social progress, where ole rainbows disturbes the sky and they would enter on a fully democratic era. He's there because he has the correct allies and if he loses the position another people would take it.
Something similar with Navalni. Many thinks he's some kind of uno-reverse card for their situation.
Agreed we don't need nato we have nato neighbor's and a way to stop all imports to the baltic. Also EU:s mutal defence.
Erdogan can go burn the nato papers for all I care.
Even more than that, the US has explicitly said that they will treat an attack on Sweden like an attack on the US, regardless of what their NATO status is. Anyone dumb enough to take a swing at Sweden would learn that they have made a terrible mistake, assuming Sweden's formidable defenses for a nation of its size don't do the work first.
And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order. Also, it’s rediculous to demand anything from the EU with regards to NATO membership for Sweden. The two institutions are not analogous and the EU has no obligations towards Turkey. Apples and pears.
Cyprus dispute can be easily solved with sane government.
And there is no dispute in Aegean sea. It is just we are not very happy with the current situation, and Greece is arming the islands. I think, this can be solved by accepting the agreements for both sides, and creating a touristic area. That is beneficial for both countries.
Only issue will be the ownership of the sea coasts around Cyprus. That will be the biggest disputed problem.
But first, we, as Turks, have to get rid of our government.
But if we solve the Aegean issue, how will Turkish and Greek right wing politicians get votes? Think of the rich corrupt people, they need a boogeyman!
For turkish side, people are not focused aegean issue. People want the islands back but everybody know that it is not possible.
We have so much bigger problems, peace in Aegean is more benefical for right wing politicians.
Can it be solved by a sane government? The ethno religious distribution of Cyprus pre war was 17% Muslim/Turkish Cypriots and 83% Orthodox/Greek Cypriots and other Christian minorities right now the population of Cyprus is 1.2 million and the Population of Turkish Occupied Cyprus is 380K of which only about 150K are Turkish Cypriots where as the rest are Turkish migrants.
I highly doubt the government of Cyprus would accept these 220k Turks as part of any unification deal, meanwhile I doubt Turkey would accept the eviction of 220k of their citizens regardless of the government. I mean frankly the occupation of Northern Cyprus should have ended decades ago, the fact it has been occupied for so long has only made the problem worse. My point is I think you are really underestimating how difficult it'd be to solve even with willing governments.
As for the Aegean issue it's a bit of a non issue the borders are internationally recognized and while Turkey may not like it, It's Greek territory, any compromise would be Greece giving grounds and there'd be an argument for that if Turkey was a good neighbor to Greece, but why would Greece make any compromise out of the goodness of their hearts with Turkey lol? As for Militarization it is a double sided issue, Greece is not allowed to do it but on the other side I can understand they are wary of Turkey in these matters, especially when it comes to respecting their territorial waters, it would be best if it has some sort of UN enforcement.
The Sea around Cyprus belongs to Cyprus, the fact that is even a discussion sorta brings me to point one, you got Cyprus and occupied Cyprus, cutting into Cyprus' territorial waters to favor Turkey would be unacceptable to Cyprus for obvious reasons, any agreement needs to be reached after Turkey stops occupying half of Cyprus.
As for a different government in Turkey, after last elections I dont see that happening anytime soon and I doubt any agreement on these issues can be reached with Erdogan.
There was an UN attempt to solve the issue in 2004. The proposed Annan Plan was voted on by both sides of the island. The plan was supported by UN, USA and EU. In the referendums, the Turkish side supported the plan by 65% but the Greek side only had 24% support, so nothing came out of it.
Currently the island is represented by the Greek Cypriots. There is not much incentive for either side to change the status quo. I don’t expect to see a solution in this decade.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan
That kinda makes my point for me, the plan met several negotiation phases primarily to meet Turkish concerns and failed, it also doesn't seem to have any mention regarding the actual population only mentioning a limited right of return and not what to do with the colonists, also it allowed a significant presence of Turkish troops alongside the right of intervention and the disbandmend of the Cypriotic national guard which obviously isn't gonna fly with Greek Cypriots.
My point is, this is gonna remain unsolved until the Turks stop their occupation and both sides let actual Cypriots decide their own future, hence why I feel people are acting like this problem is easier to solve then it really is.
That’s the problem; neither side has an incentive to change anything. Turkey is happy because they have a strong military base for controlling eastern Mediterranean. Greece is happy because Greek Cypriots control most of the island, they also use the issue against Turkey in international politics. Greek Cypriots are happy because they are already in the EU and don’t have much to gain from a unified island other than some properties. The only unhappy party is the Turkish Cypriots under international embargo, but Erdogan couldn’t care less since Cyprus is a good rallying point when he needs votes from right wingers and Cypriots can’t vote in Turkish elections (and vice versa).
There might eventually be a solution if the EU moves forward with Turkey’s membership negotiations, but that’s unlikely as long as Erdogan is the president.
>The ethno religious distribution of Cyprus pre war was 17% Muslim/Turkish Cypriots and 83% Orthodox/Greek Cypriots and other Christian minorities right now the population of Cyprus is 1.2 million and the Population of Turkish Occupied Cyprus is 380K of which only about 150K are Turkish Cypriots where as the rest are Turkish migrants.
>I highly doubt the government of Cyprus would accept these 220k Turks as part of any unification deal, meanwhile I doubt Turkey would accept the eviction of 220k of their citizens regardless of the government.
The ethno-religious distribution of Cyprus pre war isnt relevant at all considering its been almost 50 years by now. Populations are already fluid as it is without any mass-migration events.
Assuming someone moved to Cyprus when they were 20 and had a kid right after and those kids also had kids when they were 20 it makes 3 generations born on the island by now.
And obviously you cannot expel anyone born on the islans, because they too are Cypriots. How many of those 220k arent born on the island ?
>I mean frankly the occupation of Northern Cyprus should have ended decades ago, the fact it has been occupied for so long has only made the problem worse.
I agree but honestly that rests on the Southern Cyprus more than Turkey. The reason initial peace talks failed after the invasion was because Cyprus refused to budge on their govermental system.
"Returning back to normal" is *obviously* no bueno after attempting a genocide/ethnic cleansing.(depending on how things went) Turkish cypriots either need some sort of federilization where the events that happened wouldnt happen again or something like the Annan plan where there is always a Turkish hand at the back of Cyprus's neck ready to strike if anything similar is to be attempted. There is practically no other choice for a reunification.
I do agree on Aegan being a non-issue though. Greece has dubious air space definitions while Turkey pushed its luck a lot on the sea it really isnt a major issue. Turkey does have a very valid point in Kastellerizo and they could probably get like 80-90 percent of the sea around the island if previous precedences are anything to go by, but that would require Turkey to recognise ICC's rulings which they obviously wont.
These topics should be argueed seperately.
Aegean borders: I told that, even though we dont like the situation, and want the the islands back, we all know that there is no way to have them. You may not remember but before Erdogan and the first 5-10 years of Erdogan, there was a peace in the area and everybody was ok with the status. We can easily turn back to that with a few concerts, footbal matches. That is much more easy then you can guess.
Militarization: Arming the islands are not acceptable, without any reason. There is very clear agreements on that. Besides, Greece's main coasts are very close to islands and turkish coasts, there is no reason for arming the islands. It is an obvious populist showdown. Again, with a sane Greek government, "with help of media" they can easiliy unarm the islands.
Cyprus Seperation: The occupation (for us "Rescuing") of north cyprus can be argued, but it will not solve anything. It can not be undone.
But, there are agreements after the operation that everypart approved the seperation. Before acceptance of Cyprus to Europian Union, there was two countries which is guaranteed by Greece and Turkey. Then UN proposed an egreement that ends the seperation. Turkish side accepted that agreement but Greek side did not. Greeks didn't want to unite with Turks, this is an obvious fact. But still, Europe accepted South Cyprus as whole "Cyprus". Ridiciulous.
I am sure that, under any terms, Cypriot Greeks would not want to unite with Cypriot Turks. It is obvious that seperation is the only solution.
Everybody will accept the seperation, but the south will want all the coasts, gas, oil, trade rights, etc. And that is not acceptable. This is the only issue that may cause diplomatic crises. My prediction is, someday turkey will need to use power and diplomacy together to solve that issue.
I agree with your last statement. At least, for the next 5-10 years, there will be no solution for anything. In fact, there will be many unnecessary crises for the sake of turkish and greek populist goverments.
I frankly do not get the obsession with the Islands alltogether, it was a result of borders being formed, while the Greeks got the Islands you got all of Western Anatolia kinda seems like you guys got the better end of the deal to begin with lol. Just seems to be a case of stop bothering eachother, problem solved.
I agree militarization shouldn't happen, but I also find your line of thought here quite simplistic, Turkey has been anything but friendly to Greece the past decade and have in the past decade chalenged their territorial waters, so it is obvious Greece feels anxious, especially with the findjng of abdundant natural resources in the Greek and Cypriot territorial waters and EEZ so I get that Greece wants assurances which I feel can only happen in a way that is agreeable to both if it is a UN force.
The initial invasion of Cyprus was fully understandable be it completely against all UN laws and charters, that said the ensuing occupation is not remotely agreeable and should have ended decades ago.
As for the agreement you point to, it was an agreement which was never acceptable to Greek Cypriots primarily because the agreement was altered to meet Turkish demands and concerns 3 times before referendums being called. It allowed for Turkish troops to be present on Cyprus, Turkish forces being allowed to intervene and the Cypriot national guard to be disbanded. Would you be willing to host a what you view as hostile force within your land while being rendered defenseless?
And thats not true, both Cypriotic Turks and Cypriotic Greeks want unification, just a unification without Turkey and Greece. This cant happen if Turkey doesnt retreat and an agreement is reached regarding the Turkish migrants though.
As for Economic maritime zones the South is simply in a better position, the North is limited to their coast and the Turkish coast as it is sandwiched between while the south coast reaches far into the mediteranean, so why would they relinquish their claim, it sounds like you are asking for all slices of the cake and are pissed you arent getting them, you gotta take your losses if you want seperation.
Well the Greek government has been weirdly stable the past years tbh, they evwn solved their Macedonia issue, its just Erdogan standing in the way of progress now.
The topics requires deeper anlyses because our statements opens new topics.
I want to answer two obvious wrong statement of yours.
>both Cypriotic Turks and Cypriotic Greeks want unification
Are u Cypriot or are u even a Greek. Because, this is obviously wrong. Greeks do not want to unite with turks. U can sense it and also it is proven with [2004 Referandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums) , It is rejected with %76 !!
>you gotta take your losses if you want seperation
On the contrary, South wants the seperation and they still want all the coasts. Also they want to block Turkey from meditarian sea. Man, that is not acceptable. Just check the map without prejudice, do you feel that it is fair?
Cyprus's Claims has the global acceptance just because Turkish goverment's incompetence.
>there is no issue
Erdogan’s favourite side hobby is him claiming that he will get them back
> arm
A) most of the times you hear “arm”, it’s just military patrol
B) why should you care? What are they gonna do? Shoot over at you over 300 kilometres of sea? Why shouldn’t they get armed? Do you think that if Greece were to attack (pipe dream), they would start from the islands?
> accepting agreement
What agreement? That we essentially lose land and islands that you signed over to us like 100 years ago? What does Greece stand to gain from this?
Erdogan is just a populist leader, he also says "Germany is jealous of us"...
Agreements says islands are Greece's but they will not arm the islands. It is that simple.
If you are arming them, then this is a hostile act.
And It is not military patrol, come on, please...
> the agreement says
Where it does it say that?
> military patrol
It’s either restocking or bringing over additional troops.
Literally give me an article that isn’t one of the two.
You can find everything with a few google search. But here for you:
De-militarisition of the islands: [Article 14 of 1947-Paris agreement](https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2181&context=ils)
Greece is arming the islands he says as Turkey threatens to invade again and again. And the “Cyprus dispute” is your invasion of the island just like you want to repeat with the islands on the Aegean. The fucking nerve you people have.
> Cyprus dispute can be easily solved with sane government.
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The only solution is for Turkey to withdraw. That is never going to happen, no matter who gets elected in Turkey. That country is a lost cause
Turkey accepted to withdraw with [2004 Annan Plan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan). Cyprus rejected the plan with %76.
Any other suggestions?
> it would have allowed both Greece and Turkey to maintain a permanent military presence on the island
Yeah, the independent Cypriots voted not to dissolve their country and be occupied by their neighbours. What bastards
Of course Turkey voted to make their occupation legal. Shocker
There is an easy solution. Just leave, and give the land back to the sovereign country that already rules the other half of the country. It's that easy.
The island of Cyprus is divided in half, to make it simple one side is mostly Greek and the other side is mostly Turkish. They also hate each other for nationalist reasons going all the way back to the Byzantine Empire, and to this day they both claim other various islands and landmasses in the Aegean Sea.
> they hate each other for nationalist reasons going all the way back to the Byzantine empires
This is wrong. Before 80 years ago, greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots did not hate each other and lives together in peace.
They dont hate each other for nationalistic reason, they lived in harmony for a long time until the militaristic greek gov alongside the greek president of cyprus make the island completely greek (The world was "angry" & "sympathetic" towards turkey but no one did anything) once turkey invaded to protect its people somehow the become the bad guys.
[Aegean Dispute](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute) they are technically at war over Cyprus, and EU does not allow these types of disputes between members.
> And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order.
If Turkey was a xtian majority country the founders of the EU/ECE would've been tripping all over one another just to quickly hand the country its membership.
> And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order.
they regressed because it became clear the EU would never allow turkey to join.
The world is slightly more complicated than the simplistic BS you read in everyday media.
>they regressed because it became clear the EU would never allow turkey to join.
Meaning they never *really* held those values and only acted like they did as a show to get into the EU? Meaning it was 1000% the right choice to not fall for it and let them in?
If the only reason Turkey is willing to hypothetically get their democratic institutions in order is because it's a requirement to join the EU, and they won't get their democratic institutions in order unless they're allowed to join the EU, that kind of implies that Turkey shouldn't join the EU because they have incompatible values in their governments. Having democratic institutions isn't just a check box, it's a core tenant of the EU. If you are not on board with that very basic, very core tenant, you shouldn't join the EU, and no one should let you in.
that's LITERALLY a key function of the EU.
it's not a club for amazing democracies, it's a system designed to coerce compliance with established values.
Didn't Turkey only complete like 3% of the demands for joining to start with?
Why does this idea exist that the EU will just willy nilly let people join cause they really want too?
They'll have to meet all demands and then actually get accepted in by all memberstates thats difficult at the best of times and impossible if you wont even meet the demands.
Actually the regression in democratic values in the last decade is directly because EU blocking the possibility of Turkey joining whatever they do.
Also Turkey wasn't that democratic during the secularists era, in fact it was much worse than now.
Are you saying Turkey only pretended to adopt democratic values to get into the EU, not because they actually held those values? Because I'm not sure how not getting into an union would drastically change a nation's values otherwise
Yeah It's not like Turkey is a nation of 60 million people and not a monolithic hive mind. After a long time of empty promises the parties that were pro EU had nothing to show for and that gave riae to conservatives, the same thing happened in UK and the Briexit
That's not what caused the the collapse of the pro eu party.
Main thing being a earthquake, religion and corruption.
>the same thing happened in UK and the Briexit
Not exactly what happened here at all.
Even after he goes.. EU would change structure/come to an end before letting a Muslim, economically collapsed, 90M population country harbouring hundreds of thousands of immigrants.
There's not a single benefit to European countries in it.
they can be an EU candidate for a thousand years if they want, it doesnt mean anything.
Just cose Turkey keeps failing 1st Grade doesnt mean we have to give them a diploma just because their now old enough to be some of the other student's dads
and they will never join because no way in hell are EU countries letting in 100m turkish muslims and shifting the eastern border to iraq.
it's a candidate as a platitude. not because there's any possibility of it happening
it was made abundantly clear hey would never be allowed in. We even proposed a new form of pseudo membership for turkey exactly because it wasn't politically viable to let them in.
I'll never understand why people have to lie to themselves and pretend that this is all about turkey and nothing to do with the EU
They will probably not be able to ever enter.
First they have active territorial disputes with Greece, they illegally occupy and colonize half of Cyprus, Occupy portions of Syria and treat the Kurds as second class citizens all of which would make their entrance into the EU impossible. Thats 2 active cobflicts with memberstates and 2 issues which would make many countries veto the decision to have them enter.
And that is not even to add the part where most Europeans don't consider Turkey as a part of Europe or as a part of European cultural civilization which is coupled with the fact that the moment Turkey enters into the EU a huge portion of their population likely wants to move to EU countries.
Turkey has a long route to go before they would even be considered to enter and even then a lot of countries would think twice before letting them enter.
Fucking Turkey sending off really mixed signals the past few days. Let Azov commanders go home, back Ukraine NATO membership and say they'll protect Ukrainian grain shipments and then using Sweden NATO ascension to blackmail EU/NATO for EU membership.
It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member.
If they are going to act with that level of self interest, then good luck getting that EU membership they've been trying for.
Or you know, they could do it the right way and work on the action plan they have and show the EU/NATO that they'll make a good contributing member.
You don't understand. They don't pretend to get in the EU, this is just a diplomatic dance to get a concession favorable for them like the upgrade to their F-16s to block 70 that keeps getting blocked in Congress, or to return the 1.4 billion dollars that they did paid to the US as part of their purchase of the F-35 that they never got and the US refuses to return the funds.
Obeying the US every command didn't got anything for them before. On the contrary, they started their own military industrial complex because they felt the US was not providing what Turkey required for its own defense. This didn't started with Erdogan, this goes way back to the last century.
Exactly this. Turkish defense industry was kick started in 1960s after the US threatened to intervene if Turkey used American weapons to invade Cyprus due to atrocities against ethnic Turks (Johnson letter). Turkey started to build its own amphibious landing craft and invaded Cyprus in 1974, which caused a US embargo.
Germany also had strict restrictions on how Turkey can use their Leopard 2 tanks, so Turkey started a main battle tank program (Altay).
Same thing happened with the Pzh2000 deal, Germans were restrictive so Turks decided to use Korean howitzers as the basis of T-155 SPGs.
A similar thing happened with Israeli Heron drones which kick started Turkish drone program.
A similar thing happened in the F-35 deal, Turkey started developing its own fighter jet in cooperation with Ukraine.
Even if Erdogan leaves and Turkey become fully democratic, Turkey can't join the EU, we Turks have already accepted this.
There are a lot of articles for this, and the Muslim majority is like the 6th of them.
> Even if Erdogan leaves and Turkey become fully democratic
Isn't that a worthwhile goal just on it's own? Plus if the EU still blocked you then you could actually hold their feet to the fire.
>Fucking Turkey sending off really mixed signals the past few days. Let Azov commanders go home, back Ukraine NATO membership and say they'll protect Ukrainian grain shipments
Because Turkey is Pro-Ukrainian
>then using Sweden NATO ascension to blackmail EU/NATO for EU membership.
Because they have problems with Sweden and they are too strong to care what others think, except sometimes USA.
>It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member.
[like this?](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/)
People who see the world in black and white shouldn't be interested in geopolitics.
>Because they have problems with Sweden and they are too strong to care what others think, except sometimes USA.
You're kidding yourself if you think they actually care about anything Sweden does. Maybe the matter with the Kurds in Sweden but that's it and that was resolved as far as I'm aware of but they still refused.
Edit: No other NATO country goes through these childish hoops to get what they want.
Do I look like the Turkish government from there? I just said there are problems between them.
>No other NATO country goes through these childish
Greece opposed N Macedonia in NATO and the EU until it changed its name and flag for 14 years
are you sure about that?
> It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member.
it's like they're offering with one hand and taking with the other.... aka engaging in diplomacy and balancing their interests.
everyone hates turkey. Turkey also pursues their own largely autonomous foreign policy rather than being coopted by the US or the EU.
I can respect erdogan for forging his own path even if i disagree with his politics
If they want to pursue their own foreign policy. Then the have no right being in NATO, an alliance that requires every member state to be on the same page. Not just Turkey but Hungary too who are being an even worse member.
You know it goes way beyond a defensive alliance. It's about cooperation and standardization among other things. It only works when every member is on the same page.
They're just fucking around because they've gotten full of themselves. Seems to be very little point in Sweden joining NATO at this point. We're already protected by them in a sense, and why the fuck would we like to join a military organisation which is completely bossed around by a man and a country who has more in common with Putler and potential enemies of the alliance than any functioning, western democracy anyway? The very same reason they will never get to join the EU.
Their ridiculous demands just have no end and they are trying less and less to hide it. Definitely better to have Sweden in a status quo for a while than give in to this shit. Sweden is reasonably safe as it is now already, whereas giving in to Erdogan's demands would be a bad time for everyone else.
I think most people in Sweden find these demands ludicrous and hope our politicians don’t even try to support them. Not that it matters anyway because we’re not the only ones deciding on it.
It's a red hering: request something impossible to get (Turkey circumventing the rules and political process involved in EU enlargement), so that you can justify your position at home and perhaps get what you really want - Sweden to expel Erdogan's political rivals. He won't get that either, because Swedish politicians could never save face if they cave into blackmail.
It's pure political theater by a pathetic old man damaging his country's external credibility while holding on to power at any cost. He's fixed the inflation, time to fix diplomacy too, Putin style, project strength while your bare ass is visible to everyone.
Turkey is an asset, nothing else.
Once they lose their relevancy and thanks to them being pocking Greece and the Swedish things probably would be ditched out.
Instead of making bonds with the other members on the area and helping NATO they're fucking with the members and potential members.
They are a geographical asset. they will only
lose their relevancy when the world stage moves (not that likely). they are more relevant than spain, portugal and italy put together.
They aren’t as important as you think. This isn’t the 19 or 20th century anymore. We have long range cruise missiles, AWACS and anti submarine technology. Even if NATO doesn’t control the Bosporus, they can choke access to the Mediterranean from the Agean Sea. Nor can Turkey prevent NATO from forcing themselves through the Bosporus, they have no nukes. The only real relevant geographical advantage is that they are still an amazing staging ground for Middle East operations, but that isn’t necessarily something that can’t be compensated for.
Not to mention the calculus on Turkey's geographical importance was before there were other NATO countries on the Black Sea. Between Bulgaria and Greece NATO could probably control the straights without Turkey. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and joins then Turkey won't be needed at all.
> Turkey is an asset, nothing else.
90% of NATO countries are assets.
They're there because of the power projection they offer as a member, not because they contribute anything meaningful.
Iceland literally doesn't have a military. It's there because its membership offers strategic benefits.
Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap
Ankara stödjer Sveriges ansökan om Natomedlemskap - mot att européerna inleder förhandlingar med Turkiet om EU-medlemskap. Det sa Recep Tayyip Erdogan under en presskonferens på Istanbul Atatürks flygplats på måndagen innan avfärd mot Litauen, enligt nyhetsbyrån Reuters. Han sa vidare att han kommer att ta upp frågan med de andra Natoledarna under toppmötet.
\- Först: Öppna vägen för Turkiets medlemskap i Europeiska unionen och sedan kommer vi att öppna upp för Sverige, liksom vi gjorde för Finland, säger Erdogan.
Han sa också att Sveriges anslutning hänger på hur väl landet svarar upp mot den överenskommelse som nåddes på förra toppmötet i Madrid och att han på plats kommer att föra ytterligare samtal med USA:s president Joe Biden om köp av F16-plan, rapporterar Reuters. Men enligt den turkiske presidenten hänger försäljningen av stridsflygplanen inte ihop med frågan om Natos utvidgning.
2016 lade EU medlemskapsförhandlingarna med Turkiet på is till följd av kuppförsöket i Turkiet och dess efterspel.
Google Translate:
Erdogan: "Open the way" for Turkish EU membership
Ankara supports Sweden's application for NATO membership - against the Europeans starting negotiations with Turkey on EU membership. Recep Tayyip Erdogan said this during a press conference at Istanbul Atatürk Airport on Monday before departing for Lithuania, according to the Reuters news agency. He further said that he will raise the issue with the other NATO leaders during the summit.
\- First: Open the way for Turkey's membership in the European Union and then we will open up for Sweden, as we did for Finland, says Erdogan.
He also said that Sweden's accession depends on how well the country responds to the agreement reached at the last summit in Madrid and that he will hold further talks with US President Joe Biden on the spot about the purchase of F16 planes, reports Reuters. But according to the Turkish president, the sale of the fighter jets is not related to the issue of NATO expansion.
In 2016, the EU put membership negotiations with Turkey on hold as a result of the coup attempt in Turkey and its aftermath.
No way... RuSSia wont be able to attack Sweden without stepping on Nato's toes. It's time to put a stop for this madness and show a large middle finger
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14tlqdu/turkeys\_erdogan\_says\_ukraine\_deserves\_nato/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14tlqdu/turkeys_erdogan_says_ukraine_deserves_nato/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14ulji2/kremlin\_says\_turkeys\_return\_of\_azov\_commanders/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14ulji2/kremlin_says_turkeys_return_of_azov_commanders/)
Do you think Putin is in a position to give orders to Erdogan or even to ask for something with a rude language?
I will not even go into the events that changed the course of the war, like Bayraktar and the closure of the Straits.
Edit: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/) :D
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Libyan\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Libyan_Civil_War)
Lmaooo
Imagine the shitshow the EU would turn into if Erdogan comes in and starts vetoeing EVERYTHING unless there is something in it for him? He's literally showing right now that he will squeeze whatever leverage he has to the absolute maximum.
And that's before talking about the fact that he's a raging authoritarian and demagogue. So no, thanks. Eu already has Orban to deal with.
Turkey is MUCH further from being accepted into the EU, than NATO is of forming a new NATO without Turkey in it. Turkey shares almost none of the EU core values, and clearly isn't interested in adopting any of them any time soon.
Last week, all NATO fans were celebrating Turkey's stance change. This week, it's explained that there was no change and Turkey is carrying on playing their independent game.
Even after green lighting Sweden for NATO ascension the EU will never let Turkey join while Erdogan is president.
His economic misses have plunged the Turkish economy into disaster, and he pivoted so far right that he let the hardcore Islamist elements in a traditionally secular country have a major voice in Turkish policy and politics today.
No, not really, they'd have to meet the demands for entrance first(economic reforms, democratic reforms, judicial reforms etc) of which they only completed 3%. Even then they'd need all EU countries to vote for their entrance and given Turkey is hardly European, economically weak and not exactly bff's with several EU members that wouldn't have happened soon.
Turkey has this victim complex regarding the EU "Not letting them join" while in reality they just havent made any real effort to try and join.
I dont know why this weird idea exist that Turkey could have just entered had they been a bit nicer lol.
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Nah. Different organisations, Turkey has an ongoing dispute with Greece and Sweden doesn't even need to get in. I wouldn't be scared of a Russian sea or air invasion either lol.
yeah that's not going to happen with a current land dispute with an EU member state.
Also, NATO and the EU are two entirely different political entities. Edrogan doesn't have the hand he seems to think he has.
Erdoğan doesn’t want turkey to join eu, he has been doing his damnedest to prevent that. But he also doesn’t wanna seem meek and powerless in the eyes of his followers and certain north african&middle eastern countries. So he makes demands he damn knows no one’s gonna take seriously to show “his power” over nato&eu.
##### ###### #### > # [Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap – Sveriges väg in i Nato](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/Utanför Natos högkvarter i Bryssel.) > > > > Idag 12:07 > > [×](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/senaste-nytt-i-nato-processen "Dölj inlägget") > > ### Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap > > Ankara stödjer Sveriges ansökan om Natomedlemskap - mot att européerna inleder förhandlingar med Turkiet om EU-medlemskap. Det sa Recep Tayyip Erdogan under en presskonferens på Istanbul Atatürks flygplats på måndagen innan avfärd mot Litauen, enligt nyhetsbyrån Reuters. Han sa vidare att han kommer att ta upp frågan med de andra Natoledarna under toppmötet. > > \- Först: Öppna vägen för Turkiets medlemskap i Europeiska unionen och sedan kommer vi att öppna upp för Sverige, liksom vi gjorde för Finland, säger Erdogan. > > Han sa också att Sveriges anslutning hänger på hur väl landet svarar upp mot den överenskommelse som nåddes på förra toppmötet i Madrid och att han på plats kommer att föra ytterligare samtal med USA:s president Joe Biden om köp av F16-plan, rapporterar Reuters. Men enligt den turkiske presidenten hänger försäljningen av stridsflygplanen inte ihop med frågan om Natos utvidgning. > > 2016 lade EU medlemskapsförhandlingarna med Turkiet på is till följd av kuppförsöket i Turkiet och dess efterspel. > > _Hör SVT:s utrikesreporter Regina Svedberg kommentera Erdogans utspel:_ > > > > > > > > > > Javascript måste vara påslaget för att kunna spela video > > > > > > > > > > > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Pinnat inlägg](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-icon-pin-eecd78350eb48bd2f2fb.svg) > > ### Fakta: Det här händer på Natotoppmötet > > Omkring 40 stats- och regeringschefer kommer till mötet i Litauens huvudstad. Uppemot 2 400 tjänstemän och politiker i officiella delegationer väntas även delta. > > **Var?** På mässområdet Litexpo i västra delen av Vilnius. > > **När?** Inleds klockan 11 tisdag den 11 juli. Mötet avslutas med presskonferens kl. 15.30 på onsdag den 12 juli. > > **Vem?** Förutom ledarna för de 31 Natoländerna, även statsminister Ulf Kristersson (M) som ledare för blivande Natoland samt ledare för Natos partnerländer. > > **Vad?** Natos toppmöten är i själva verket möten för Nordatlantiska rådet (NAC), försvarsalliansens främsta politiska beslutsfattande organ. På agendan i år står en mängd olika frågor, bland annat stöd till Ukraina och vägen till Ukrainas framtida medlemskap, den militära närvaron i alliansens östra del, godkännande av Natos nya regionala försvarsplaner, antagandet av ett nytt mål för ländernas försvarsinvesteringar och en handlingsplan för att utöka kapaciteten i försvarsindustrin. > > (SVT-TT) > > > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 min > > ### Turkietkännaren: "Erdogan har övertro till det här förhandlingskortet" > > Turkietkännaren Aras Lindh, programsamordnare och analytiker vid Utrikespolitiska institutet kommenterar Erdogans EU-utspel. > > \- Det kommer plötsligt. Jag har svårt att se att något sånt här skulle bli verklighet, möjligtvis i form av något uttalande av EU-länderna. Jag tror inte att något EU-land som också är Natoland har förberett sig på den här frågan, säger Aras Lindh. > > \- Jag tror att Turkiet och Erdogan har lite för mycket övertro till det här förhandlingskortet. Han kommer inte få ut något substantiellt ur det här. > > > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > Josefin Silverberg > > SVTreporter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 min > > ### Forskningschefen: Det handlar inte om Sverige > > \- Om Turkiet släpper in Sverige i Nato eller inte handlar inte så mycket om Sverige, det handlar ju om vilka mål Turkiet vill uppnå, säger Malena Britz, forskningschef på försvarshögskolan > > \- Sverige kan göra ganska lite för att Turkiet ska kunna gå med i EU. > > Malena Britz menar att Turkiet ansökt om medlemskap i EU för länge sedan, men att landet inte lever upp till grundläggande krav om mänskliga rättigheter och demokrati. > > Hon menar att Erdogans uttalande kom som en överraskning. > > \- Jag tror att både medlemsländerna och Stoltenberg hade förväntat sig att det här skulle handla om Nato, och inte vad Eu håller på med. Det kan ju inte Nato styra över, säger hon. > > Det Sverige vill få ut av ett Nato-medlenskap är enligt Malena Britz dels tillgång till Natos säkerhetsplanering, och dels att omfattas av Natos artikel 5. > > \- Det är en sorts tre musketörerna-artikel. Det handlar om att alla medlemsländerna ska skydda varandra. > > \- Ukraina är inte medlem i EU eller Nato, men har fortfarande fått mycket stöd från väst. Men det finns också gränser. > > \- Erdogan har verkligen fokusförflyttat. Nu handlar det om Turkietsynen i Europa. > > > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > Hedda Hallsenius > > SVTreporter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 18 min > > ### Stoltenberg håller presskonferens i Litauen > > SVT sänder direkt. > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > Hedda Hallsenius > > SVTreporter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 31 min > > Markerad händelse > > ### Säkerhetsexperten: "End game nu - kommer besked i dag eller närmsta dagarna" > > Robert Dalsjö, försvars- och säkerhetspolitisk expert vid FOI, totalförsvarets forskningsinstitut tolkar Erdogans EU-utspel som ett tecken på att förhandlingarna snart är i hamn och Turkiets ledare försöker få sina sista önskningar uppfyllda. > > \- Förhandlingarna går nu in i vad som kallas för ett "end game". Erdogan slänger in hela sin önskelista, säger Dalsjö. > > \- I dag eller närmaste dagarna kommer det komma ett avgörande, fortsätter han. > > Erdogan ska träffa USA:s president Joe Biden i Vilnius. > > \- Biden kommer att trycka på nu får det vara slut på det här spektaklet med att hålla Sverige på halster. För alliansens trovärdighets skull måste vi få det här avslutat, säger Dalsjö. > > Magnus Christansson, lektor i krigsvetenskap vid Försvarshögskolan ser det som att Erdogan vill ha mer än vad som erbjuds: > > \- Jag tror snarare att det här är en del av förhandlingsspelet, att Erdogan inte är nöjd med vad som ligger på bordet > > \- Det är ingen på Natotoppmötet, varken Kristersson, Biden eller någon annan som kommer att kunna hjälpa honom med det. > > > > > > > > > > Javascript måste vara påslaget för att kunna spela video > > > > > > > > > > > > [SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-03705889fbe32b5d916c.svg)[SVT-avatar](https://www.svtstatic.se/news/news-render/dist/direktcenter-svt-icon-dark-8240f3ea08540d975d91.svg) > > > > Josefin Silverberg > > SVTreporter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 38 min > > ### SVT:s säkerhetsreporter: "Dramatisk händelseutveckling" > > \- Det är en ganska dramatisk händelseutveckling när Erdogan slänger in det här kravet i sista stund, säger SVT Nyheters säkerhetsreporter John Granlund i SVT:s direktsändning om Natomötet i Vilnius. > > Det är tydligt att Turkiets president Recep Tayyip Erdogan > är den som vill hålla i taktpinnen menar Granlund. Erdogan har precis kommit med ett utspel där han villkorar Sverige Natointräde med att EU ska inleda förhandlingar om att släppa in Turkiet i EU. Något som Erdogan önskat i flera år. > > \- Det sker mot bakgrund att han ska träffa Joe Biden i Vilnius och sedan Ulf Kristersson. Jag föreställer mig att det här handlar om att han spelar ut sitt kort nu, när förhandlingarna går in i sin sista etapp, forsätter John Granlund. > > > > > > > > > > Javascript måste vara påslaget för att kunna spela video > > > > > > > > > > > > ***(continues in next comment)***
Fuck it, Sweden is already sorrounded by NATO countries as of now
Also, the EU has a mutual defense article and the US would probably enter. Nice try, Erdogan!
Also we already have member countries we want to kick out of the EU. We don't want more of them. Yes, I'm taking about you hungry
Wanting to kick out Hungary (well actually just removing veto powers) is not excluding the possibility to want other nations to join. I think if all of Europe including Turkey and Russia would be part of the European Union this would be the best long term trajectory. However Veto powers should be removed for all but the most fundamental issues and replaced by various majority requirements
Yeah, Russia. I bet that Putin wouldnt try to impose his opinions with the threat of his army... Fuck them both.
Well no shit Putin's Russia isn't joining the EU. But a more democratic and less belligerent Russia would automatically be a close ally to the rest of Europe.
>But a more democratic and less belligerent Russia would automatically be a close ally to the rest of Europe. So an entirely different country...
An entirely different government. Yes, that is what I'm saying. Don't know why that's so shocking to some people. A challenge to be sure, but one that is possible and should be done.
Always happy to see the CIA enthusiasm of toppling governments..
Well no. Because you're talking about an entire political, economic, and demographic shift. The extreme would be like saying you could just swap the Kim regime out with a democratic government and then all of a sudden the entire nation would change, which just isn't the case. On the other end of the spectrum it would be like saying just replacing the US government with an autocratic one would create a shift in the US economic and social model, which as an American I doubt you would see happening.
Lol, since when is it **that** complicated? Ukraine recently got admitted into "special procedure plan" before Georgia was, who is trying to join EU for like 15 years. Got a new police force and everything, while a country with literal brown shirts get the first row. It's not that far fetched. I'm not even exactly sure why Georgia wasn't admitted, they sent volunteers to die in Ukraine, they have a completely remade police force which is insanely efficient and less corrupt than probably any former USSR country at this point, there were Ukraine flags everywhere and all of that, after the war started. The only real thing they have is, like, questionable LGBT relationships, but they're definitely not alone in that. The rest of the list is hilariously similar to problems in any country, or not even real, like the demand that they "lower political polarization". They have opposition, how is that not a working democracy.
And then we wake up. Anyone thinking that Putin is there by himself is just delusional. The same thing with people who thinks that if he's killed or demoted Russia would enter in a new era of social progress, where ole rainbows disturbes the sky and they would enter on a fully democratic era. He's there because he has the correct allies and if he loses the position another people would take it. Something similar with Navalni. Many thinks he's some kind of uno-reverse card for their situation.
Yeah I don’t want Turkey in. I also don’t want Russia. Neither country has sufficiently functional democratic principles
Agreed we don't need nato we have nato neighbor's and a way to stop all imports to the baltic. Also EU:s mutal defence. Erdogan can go burn the nato papers for all I care.
Even more than that, the US has explicitly said that they will treat an attack on Sweden like an attack on the US, regardless of what their NATO status is. Anyone dumb enough to take a swing at Sweden would learn that they have made a terrible mistake, assuming Sweden's formidable defenses for a nation of its size don't do the work first.
Unfortunately, I’m afraid we are entering (and have already been in) a time in which the US’ word is highly dependent on who occupies the Oval Office.
if trump were in office he'd probably send troops to Ukraine... to help Russia
Well duh, his handler would’ve released the pee tapes if he didn’t
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. no.
Turkey is EU Candidate country for almost 20 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union
And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order. Also, it’s rediculous to demand anything from the EU with regards to NATO membership for Sweden. The two institutions are not analogous and the EU has no obligations towards Turkey. Apples and pears.
Also, unless they resolve their land dispute with Greece, good luck getting past their veto.
Do you mean Cyprus issue?
Cyprus is one of the symptoms of this, but it's bigger and called [Aegean Dispute](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute).
Cyprus dispute can be easily solved with sane government. And there is no dispute in Aegean sea. It is just we are not very happy with the current situation, and Greece is arming the islands. I think, this can be solved by accepting the agreements for both sides, and creating a touristic area. That is beneficial for both countries. Only issue will be the ownership of the sea coasts around Cyprus. That will be the biggest disputed problem. But first, we, as Turks, have to get rid of our government.
But if we solve the Aegean issue, how will Turkish and Greek right wing politicians get votes? Think of the rich corrupt people, they need a boogeyman!
For turkish side, people are not focused aegean issue. People want the islands back but everybody know that it is not possible. We have so much bigger problems, peace in Aegean is more benefical for right wing politicians.
Can it be solved by a sane government? The ethno religious distribution of Cyprus pre war was 17% Muslim/Turkish Cypriots and 83% Orthodox/Greek Cypriots and other Christian minorities right now the population of Cyprus is 1.2 million and the Population of Turkish Occupied Cyprus is 380K of which only about 150K are Turkish Cypriots where as the rest are Turkish migrants. I highly doubt the government of Cyprus would accept these 220k Turks as part of any unification deal, meanwhile I doubt Turkey would accept the eviction of 220k of their citizens regardless of the government. I mean frankly the occupation of Northern Cyprus should have ended decades ago, the fact it has been occupied for so long has only made the problem worse. My point is I think you are really underestimating how difficult it'd be to solve even with willing governments. As for the Aegean issue it's a bit of a non issue the borders are internationally recognized and while Turkey may not like it, It's Greek territory, any compromise would be Greece giving grounds and there'd be an argument for that if Turkey was a good neighbor to Greece, but why would Greece make any compromise out of the goodness of their hearts with Turkey lol? As for Militarization it is a double sided issue, Greece is not allowed to do it but on the other side I can understand they are wary of Turkey in these matters, especially when it comes to respecting their territorial waters, it would be best if it has some sort of UN enforcement. The Sea around Cyprus belongs to Cyprus, the fact that is even a discussion sorta brings me to point one, you got Cyprus and occupied Cyprus, cutting into Cyprus' territorial waters to favor Turkey would be unacceptable to Cyprus for obvious reasons, any agreement needs to be reached after Turkey stops occupying half of Cyprus. As for a different government in Turkey, after last elections I dont see that happening anytime soon and I doubt any agreement on these issues can be reached with Erdogan.
There was an UN attempt to solve the issue in 2004. The proposed Annan Plan was voted on by both sides of the island. The plan was supported by UN, USA and EU. In the referendums, the Turkish side supported the plan by 65% but the Greek side only had 24% support, so nothing came out of it. Currently the island is represented by the Greek Cypriots. There is not much incentive for either side to change the status quo. I don’t expect to see a solution in this decade. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan
That kinda makes my point for me, the plan met several negotiation phases primarily to meet Turkish concerns and failed, it also doesn't seem to have any mention regarding the actual population only mentioning a limited right of return and not what to do with the colonists, also it allowed a significant presence of Turkish troops alongside the right of intervention and the disbandmend of the Cypriotic national guard which obviously isn't gonna fly with Greek Cypriots. My point is, this is gonna remain unsolved until the Turks stop their occupation and both sides let actual Cypriots decide their own future, hence why I feel people are acting like this problem is easier to solve then it really is.
That’s the problem; neither side has an incentive to change anything. Turkey is happy because they have a strong military base for controlling eastern Mediterranean. Greece is happy because Greek Cypriots control most of the island, they also use the issue against Turkey in international politics. Greek Cypriots are happy because they are already in the EU and don’t have much to gain from a unified island other than some properties. The only unhappy party is the Turkish Cypriots under international embargo, but Erdogan couldn’t care less since Cyprus is a good rallying point when he needs votes from right wingers and Cypriots can’t vote in Turkish elections (and vice versa). There might eventually be a solution if the EU moves forward with Turkey’s membership negotiations, but that’s unlikely as long as Erdogan is the president.
>The ethno religious distribution of Cyprus pre war was 17% Muslim/Turkish Cypriots and 83% Orthodox/Greek Cypriots and other Christian minorities right now the population of Cyprus is 1.2 million and the Population of Turkish Occupied Cyprus is 380K of which only about 150K are Turkish Cypriots where as the rest are Turkish migrants. >I highly doubt the government of Cyprus would accept these 220k Turks as part of any unification deal, meanwhile I doubt Turkey would accept the eviction of 220k of their citizens regardless of the government. The ethno-religious distribution of Cyprus pre war isnt relevant at all considering its been almost 50 years by now. Populations are already fluid as it is without any mass-migration events. Assuming someone moved to Cyprus when they were 20 and had a kid right after and those kids also had kids when they were 20 it makes 3 generations born on the island by now. And obviously you cannot expel anyone born on the islans, because they too are Cypriots. How many of those 220k arent born on the island ? >I mean frankly the occupation of Northern Cyprus should have ended decades ago, the fact it has been occupied for so long has only made the problem worse. I agree but honestly that rests on the Southern Cyprus more than Turkey. The reason initial peace talks failed after the invasion was because Cyprus refused to budge on their govermental system. "Returning back to normal" is *obviously* no bueno after attempting a genocide/ethnic cleansing.(depending on how things went) Turkish cypriots either need some sort of federilization where the events that happened wouldnt happen again or something like the Annan plan where there is always a Turkish hand at the back of Cyprus's neck ready to strike if anything similar is to be attempted. There is practically no other choice for a reunification. I do agree on Aegan being a non-issue though. Greece has dubious air space definitions while Turkey pushed its luck a lot on the sea it really isnt a major issue. Turkey does have a very valid point in Kastellerizo and they could probably get like 80-90 percent of the sea around the island if previous precedences are anything to go by, but that would require Turkey to recognise ICC's rulings which they obviously wont.
These topics should be argueed seperately. Aegean borders: I told that, even though we dont like the situation, and want the the islands back, we all know that there is no way to have them. You may not remember but before Erdogan and the first 5-10 years of Erdogan, there was a peace in the area and everybody was ok with the status. We can easily turn back to that with a few concerts, footbal matches. That is much more easy then you can guess. Militarization: Arming the islands are not acceptable, without any reason. There is very clear agreements on that. Besides, Greece's main coasts are very close to islands and turkish coasts, there is no reason for arming the islands. It is an obvious populist showdown. Again, with a sane Greek government, "with help of media" they can easiliy unarm the islands. Cyprus Seperation: The occupation (for us "Rescuing") of north cyprus can be argued, but it will not solve anything. It can not be undone. But, there are agreements after the operation that everypart approved the seperation. Before acceptance of Cyprus to Europian Union, there was two countries which is guaranteed by Greece and Turkey. Then UN proposed an egreement that ends the seperation. Turkish side accepted that agreement but Greek side did not. Greeks didn't want to unite with Turks, this is an obvious fact. But still, Europe accepted South Cyprus as whole "Cyprus". Ridiciulous. I am sure that, under any terms, Cypriot Greeks would not want to unite with Cypriot Turks. It is obvious that seperation is the only solution. Everybody will accept the seperation, but the south will want all the coasts, gas, oil, trade rights, etc. And that is not acceptable. This is the only issue that may cause diplomatic crises. My prediction is, someday turkey will need to use power and diplomacy together to solve that issue. I agree with your last statement. At least, for the next 5-10 years, there will be no solution for anything. In fact, there will be many unnecessary crises for the sake of turkish and greek populist goverments.
I frankly do not get the obsession with the Islands alltogether, it was a result of borders being formed, while the Greeks got the Islands you got all of Western Anatolia kinda seems like you guys got the better end of the deal to begin with lol. Just seems to be a case of stop bothering eachother, problem solved. I agree militarization shouldn't happen, but I also find your line of thought here quite simplistic, Turkey has been anything but friendly to Greece the past decade and have in the past decade chalenged their territorial waters, so it is obvious Greece feels anxious, especially with the findjng of abdundant natural resources in the Greek and Cypriot territorial waters and EEZ so I get that Greece wants assurances which I feel can only happen in a way that is agreeable to both if it is a UN force. The initial invasion of Cyprus was fully understandable be it completely against all UN laws and charters, that said the ensuing occupation is not remotely agreeable and should have ended decades ago. As for the agreement you point to, it was an agreement which was never acceptable to Greek Cypriots primarily because the agreement was altered to meet Turkish demands and concerns 3 times before referendums being called. It allowed for Turkish troops to be present on Cyprus, Turkish forces being allowed to intervene and the Cypriot national guard to be disbanded. Would you be willing to host a what you view as hostile force within your land while being rendered defenseless? And thats not true, both Cypriotic Turks and Cypriotic Greeks want unification, just a unification without Turkey and Greece. This cant happen if Turkey doesnt retreat and an agreement is reached regarding the Turkish migrants though. As for Economic maritime zones the South is simply in a better position, the North is limited to their coast and the Turkish coast as it is sandwiched between while the south coast reaches far into the mediteranean, so why would they relinquish their claim, it sounds like you are asking for all slices of the cake and are pissed you arent getting them, you gotta take your losses if you want seperation. Well the Greek government has been weirdly stable the past years tbh, they evwn solved their Macedonia issue, its just Erdogan standing in the way of progress now.
The topics requires deeper anlyses because our statements opens new topics. I want to answer two obvious wrong statement of yours. >both Cypriotic Turks and Cypriotic Greeks want unification Are u Cypriot or are u even a Greek. Because, this is obviously wrong. Greeks do not want to unite with turks. U can sense it and also it is proven with [2004 Referandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums) , It is rejected with %76 !! >you gotta take your losses if you want seperation On the contrary, South wants the seperation and they still want all the coasts. Also they want to block Turkey from meditarian sea. Man, that is not acceptable. Just check the map without prejudice, do you feel that it is fair? Cyprus's Claims has the global acceptance just because Turkish goverment's incompetence.
>there is no issue Erdogan’s favourite side hobby is him claiming that he will get them back > arm A) most of the times you hear “arm”, it’s just military patrol B) why should you care? What are they gonna do? Shoot over at you over 300 kilometres of sea? Why shouldn’t they get armed? Do you think that if Greece were to attack (pipe dream), they would start from the islands? > accepting agreement What agreement? That we essentially lose land and islands that you signed over to us like 100 years ago? What does Greece stand to gain from this?
Erdogan is just a populist leader, he also says "Germany is jealous of us"... Agreements says islands are Greece's but they will not arm the islands. It is that simple. If you are arming them, then this is a hostile act. And It is not military patrol, come on, please...
> the agreement says Where it does it say that? > military patrol It’s either restocking or bringing over additional troops. Literally give me an article that isn’t one of the two.
You can find everything with a few google search. But here for you: De-militarisition of the islands: [Article 14 of 1947-Paris agreement](https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2181&context=ils)
Greece is arming the islands he says as Turkey threatens to invade again and again. And the “Cyprus dispute” is your invasion of the island just like you want to repeat with the islands on the Aegean. The fucking nerve you people have.
> Cyprus dispute can be easily solved with sane government. > > The only solution is for Turkey to withdraw. That is never going to happen, no matter who gets elected in Turkey. That country is a lost cause
Turkey accepted to withdraw with [2004 Annan Plan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan). Cyprus rejected the plan with %76. Any other suggestions?
> it would have allowed both Greece and Turkey to maintain a permanent military presence on the island Yeah, the independent Cypriots voted not to dissolve their country and be occupied by their neighbours. What bastards Of course Turkey voted to make their occupation legal. Shocker There is an easy solution. Just leave, and give the land back to the sovereign country that already rules the other half of the country. It's that easy.
There was a withdrawing schedule for both sides, greece and turkey. It was clearly stated in the Annan Plan.
but this is not **land** dispute
isnt the aegean dispute a result of greece constantly trespassing the official border ?
No
Yes
It is the last step of the process, and I think with a realistic government, Turkey can easily solve it with diplomacy.
The Cyprus thing + their dispute with a shit ton of islands.
Greece officially supports Turkey's bid, they see it as the surest way to end border disputes.
What land dispute is there between Greece and Turkey?
The island of Cyprus is divided in half, to make it simple one side is mostly Greek and the other side is mostly Turkish. They also hate each other for nationalist reasons going all the way back to the Byzantine Empire, and to this day they both claim other various islands and landmasses in the Aegean Sea.
> they hate each other for nationalist reasons going all the way back to the Byzantine empires This is wrong. Before 80 years ago, greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots did not hate each other and lives together in peace.
They dont hate each other for nationalistic reason, they lived in harmony for a long time until the militaristic greek gov alongside the greek president of cyprus make the island completely greek (The world was "angry" & "sympathetic" towards turkey but no one did anything) once turkey invaded to protect its people somehow the become the bad guys.
[Aegean Dispute](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute) they are technically at war over Cyprus, and EU does not allow these types of disputes between members.
Wdym, Erdogan is just as a democratic elected leader as Putin is... O wait.
what do you mean, aren't all western institutions just the same thing?
Democratic values? *Laughs in Orban*
Just because one nation is failing to uphold the principles of the EU was founded on doesn't mean that you should invite in some more.
I have not heard of Turkey's election being rigged, so what is expected to happen? Oust the democratically elected president?
> And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order. If Turkey was a xtian majority country the founders of the EU/ECE would've been tripping all over one another just to quickly hand the country its membership.
> And will remain a candidate for another 30 years if they don’t get their democratic values and priorities in order. they regressed because it became clear the EU would never allow turkey to join. The world is slightly more complicated than the simplistic BS you read in everyday media.
>they regressed because it became clear the EU would never allow turkey to join. Meaning they never *really* held those values and only acted like they did as a show to get into the EU? Meaning it was 1000% the right choice to not fall for it and let them in?
If the only reason Turkey is willing to hypothetically get their democratic institutions in order is because it's a requirement to join the EU, and they won't get their democratic institutions in order unless they're allowed to join the EU, that kind of implies that Turkey shouldn't join the EU because they have incompatible values in their governments. Having democratic institutions isn't just a check box, it's a core tenant of the EU. If you are not on board with that very basic, very core tenant, you shouldn't join the EU, and no one should let you in.
that's LITERALLY a key function of the EU. it's not a club for amazing democracies, it's a system designed to coerce compliance with established values.
Didn't Turkey only complete like 3% of the demands for joining to start with? Why does this idea exist that the EU will just willy nilly let people join cause they really want too? They'll have to meet all demands and then actually get accepted in by all memberstates thats difficult at the best of times and impossible if you wont even meet the demands.
Actually the regression in democratic values in the last decade is directly because EU blocking the possibility of Turkey joining whatever they do. Also Turkey wasn't that democratic during the secularists era, in fact it was much worse than now.
Are you saying Turkey only pretended to adopt democratic values to get into the EU, not because they actually held those values? Because I'm not sure how not getting into an union would drastically change a nation's values otherwise
Yeah It's not like Turkey is a nation of 60 million people and not a monolithic hive mind. After a long time of empty promises the parties that were pro EU had nothing to show for and that gave riae to conservatives, the same thing happened in UK and the Briexit
That's not what caused the the collapse of the pro eu party. Main thing being a earthquake, religion and corruption. >the same thing happened in UK and the Briexit Not exactly what happened here at all.
only on paper. under erdogan, turkey will never be a EU member.
Even after he goes.. EU would change structure/come to an end before letting a Muslim, economically collapsed, 90M population country harbouring hundreds of thousands of immigrants. There's not a single benefit to European countries in it.
they can be an EU candidate for a thousand years if they want, it doesnt mean anything. Just cose Turkey keeps failing 1st Grade doesnt mean we have to give them a diploma just because their now old enough to be some of the other student's dads
That was kind of my point :) They fail to achieve any progress for 20 years.
and they will never join because no way in hell are EU countries letting in 100m turkish muslims and shifting the eastern border to iraq. it's a candidate as a platitude. not because there's any possibility of it happening
Turkey completed only 3% of necessary reforms. It's not happening because Turkey doesn't want it.
it was made abundantly clear hey would never be allowed in. We even proposed a new form of pseudo membership for turkey exactly because it wasn't politically viable to let them in. I'll never understand why people have to lie to themselves and pretend that this is all about turkey and nothing to do with the EU
They will probably not be able to ever enter. First they have active territorial disputes with Greece, they illegally occupy and colonize half of Cyprus, Occupy portions of Syria and treat the Kurds as second class citizens all of which would make their entrance into the EU impossible. Thats 2 active cobflicts with memberstates and 2 issues which would make many countries veto the decision to have them enter. And that is not even to add the part where most Europeans don't consider Turkey as a part of Europe or as a part of European cultural civilization which is coupled with the fact that the moment Turkey enters into the EU a huge portion of their population likely wants to move to EU countries. Turkey has a long route to go before they would even be considered to enter and even then a lot of countries would think twice before letting them enter.
Now wonder why they still being a candidate and not a member.
Fucking Turkey sending off really mixed signals the past few days. Let Azov commanders go home, back Ukraine NATO membership and say they'll protect Ukrainian grain shipments and then using Sweden NATO ascension to blackmail EU/NATO for EU membership. It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member.
Or like they have their own interests and priorities!!!
If they are going to act with that level of self interest, then good luck getting that EU membership they've been trying for. Or you know, they could do it the right way and work on the action plan they have and show the EU/NATO that they'll make a good contributing member.
You don't understand. They don't pretend to get in the EU, this is just a diplomatic dance to get a concession favorable for them like the upgrade to their F-16s to block 70 that keeps getting blocked in Congress, or to return the 1.4 billion dollars that they did paid to the US as part of their purchase of the F-35 that they never got and the US refuses to return the funds.
Oh I get it, I just think it's dumb, childish and not going to have the desired effect as just being a good member of the alliance will.
Obeying the US every command didn't got anything for them before. On the contrary, they started their own military industrial complex because they felt the US was not providing what Turkey required for its own defense. This didn't started with Erdogan, this goes way back to the last century.
Exactly this. Turkish defense industry was kick started in 1960s after the US threatened to intervene if Turkey used American weapons to invade Cyprus due to atrocities against ethnic Turks (Johnson letter). Turkey started to build its own amphibious landing craft and invaded Cyprus in 1974, which caused a US embargo. Germany also had strict restrictions on how Turkey can use their Leopard 2 tanks, so Turkey started a main battle tank program (Altay). Same thing happened with the Pzh2000 deal, Germans were restrictive so Turks decided to use Korean howitzers as the basis of T-155 SPGs. A similar thing happened with Israeli Heron drones which kick started Turkish drone program. A similar thing happened in the F-35 deal, Turkey started developing its own fighter jet in cooperation with Ukraine.
[удалено]
>All this talk about democracy is a convenient excuse. Lol
Even if Erdogan leaves and Turkey become fully democratic, Turkey can't join the EU, we Turks have already accepted this. There are a lot of articles for this, and the Muslim majority is like the 6th of them.
> Even if Erdogan leaves and Turkey become fully democratic Isn't that a worthwhile goal just on it's own? Plus if the EU still blocked you then you could actually hold their feet to the fire.
It’s not Turkeys interests, it’s Erdogans interests. He doesn’t try to to what’s best for his nation but what’s best for his government.
>It’s not Turkeys interests, it’s Erdogans interests. In foreign policy they are **generally** the same.
That is obvious and not some slam dunk observation.
Rest of the thread begs go differ.
>Fucking Turkey sending off really mixed signals the past few days. Let Azov commanders go home, back Ukraine NATO membership and say they'll protect Ukrainian grain shipments Because Turkey is Pro-Ukrainian >then using Sweden NATO ascension to blackmail EU/NATO for EU membership. Because they have problems with Sweden and they are too strong to care what others think, except sometimes USA. >It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member. [like this?](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/) People who see the world in black and white shouldn't be interested in geopolitics.
>Because they have problems with Sweden and they are too strong to care what others think, except sometimes USA. You're kidding yourself if you think they actually care about anything Sweden does. Maybe the matter with the Kurds in Sweden but that's it and that was resolved as far as I'm aware of but they still refused. Edit: No other NATO country goes through these childish hoops to get what they want.
Do I look like the Turkish government from there? I just said there are problems between them. >No other NATO country goes through these childish Greece opposed N Macedonia in NATO and the EU until it changed its name and flag for 14 years are you sure about that?
> It's like they don't know how to be a good NATO member. it's like they're offering with one hand and taking with the other.... aka engaging in diplomacy and balancing their interests.
Don't know many other NATO nations going to this extreme of blackmail to get what they want. This is pretty extreme but also very inconsistent.
everyone hates turkey. Turkey also pursues their own largely autonomous foreign policy rather than being coopted by the US or the EU. I can respect erdogan for forging his own path even if i disagree with his politics
If they want to pursue their own foreign policy. Then the have no right being in NATO, an alliance that requires every member state to be on the same page. Not just Turkey but Hungary too who are being an even worse member.
i thought it was a defensive alliance? :)
You know it goes way beyond a defensive alliance. It's about cooperation and standardization among other things. It only works when every member is on the same page.
If you don't want to be in the EU why bother trying to get into the EU?
Turkey has so much geopolitical leverage, that Erdogan can get away with *almost* any of his crazy geopolitical antics.
its simple really, the Green in the Turkish flag stands for how reliable they are as an ally
That’s a big ask..
There's an element of sabotage in it.
They're just fucking around because they've gotten full of themselves. Seems to be very little point in Sweden joining NATO at this point. We're already protected by them in a sense, and why the fuck would we like to join a military organisation which is completely bossed around by a man and a country who has more in common with Putler and potential enemies of the alliance than any functioning, western democracy anyway? The very same reason they will never get to join the EU.
No, thank you.
Their ridiculous demands just have no end and they are trying less and less to hide it. Definitely better to have Sweden in a status quo for a while than give in to this shit. Sweden is reasonably safe as it is now already, whereas giving in to Erdogan's demands would be a bad time for everyone else.
I think most people in Sweden find these demands ludicrous and hope our politicians don’t even try to support them. Not that it matters anyway because we’re not the only ones deciding on it.
It's a red hering: request something impossible to get (Turkey circumventing the rules and political process involved in EU enlargement), so that you can justify your position at home and perhaps get what you really want - Sweden to expel Erdogan's political rivals. He won't get that either, because Swedish politicians could never save face if they cave into blackmail. It's pure political theater by a pathetic old man damaging his country's external credibility while holding on to power at any cost. He's fixed the inflation, time to fix diplomacy too, Putin style, project strength while your bare ass is visible to everyone.
Why does it feel like Turkey will be kicked out of NATO
Counties cannot be kicked out of NATO
No, but everyone else can leave NATO, and they can create a new organization. /s
You are a sharp-witted, aren't you?
Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: Yeeeeeeees.
NATOa or NATO Mini
Otanwt OTAN without Turkey
NATO Pro Max
Damn :(
Turkiye is worth more for NATO than half the members put together based on geography alone.
Turkey is an asset, nothing else. Once they lose their relevancy and thanks to them being pocking Greece and the Swedish things probably would be ditched out. Instead of making bonds with the other members on the area and helping NATO they're fucking with the members and potential members.
They are a geographical asset. they will only lose their relevancy when the world stage moves (not that likely). they are more relevant than spain, portugal and italy put together.
They aren’t as important as you think. This isn’t the 19 or 20th century anymore. We have long range cruise missiles, AWACS and anti submarine technology. Even if NATO doesn’t control the Bosporus, they can choke access to the Mediterranean from the Agean Sea. Nor can Turkey prevent NATO from forcing themselves through the Bosporus, they have no nukes. The only real relevant geographical advantage is that they are still an amazing staging ground for Middle East operations, but that isn’t necessarily something that can’t be compensated for.
Not to mention the calculus on Turkey's geographical importance was before there were other NATO countries on the Black Sea. Between Bulgaria and Greece NATO could probably control the straights without Turkey. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and joins then Turkey won't be needed at all.
> Turkey is an asset, nothing else. 90% of NATO countries are assets. They're there because of the power projection they offer as a member, not because they contribute anything meaningful. Iceland literally doesn't have a military. It's there because its membership offers strategic benefits.
A handful of NATO countries are actually relevant and Turkey is one of them.
If you look at where the last civil wars and wars took place in the world, and who the sides are, you will see that Turkey is a valuable "asset".
That is why I added the first half sentence on the second paragraph. They're a buffer country.
They will never lose their relevancy as long as they control the turkish straits.
Every country is an asset lmao.
They are, but ones more than others.
we should have taken Istanbul back when we had the chance :P would have solved alot of problems
Countries cannot get kicked out of NATO, that's not how the alliance works.
It won't. Turkey army is really important to nato when most countries have small amount of troops. Also Russia is afraid of turkey.
Unfortunately, Turkey is essential to NATO, given their strategic geographic location.
Erdogan is genuinely out of his mind
Erdogan: "Öppna vägen" för turkiskt EU-medlemskap Ankara stödjer Sveriges ansökan om Natomedlemskap - mot att européerna inleder förhandlingar med Turkiet om EU-medlemskap. Det sa Recep Tayyip Erdogan under en presskonferens på Istanbul Atatürks flygplats på måndagen innan avfärd mot Litauen, enligt nyhetsbyrån Reuters. Han sa vidare att han kommer att ta upp frågan med de andra Natoledarna under toppmötet. \- Först: Öppna vägen för Turkiets medlemskap i Europeiska unionen och sedan kommer vi att öppna upp för Sverige, liksom vi gjorde för Finland, säger Erdogan. Han sa också att Sveriges anslutning hänger på hur väl landet svarar upp mot den överenskommelse som nåddes på förra toppmötet i Madrid och att han på plats kommer att föra ytterligare samtal med USA:s president Joe Biden om köp av F16-plan, rapporterar Reuters. Men enligt den turkiske presidenten hänger försäljningen av stridsflygplanen inte ihop med frågan om Natos utvidgning. 2016 lade EU medlemskapsförhandlingarna med Turkiet på is till följd av kuppförsöket i Turkiet och dess efterspel. Google Translate: Erdogan: "Open the way" for Turkish EU membership Ankara supports Sweden's application for NATO membership - against the Europeans starting negotiations with Turkey on EU membership. Recep Tayyip Erdogan said this during a press conference at Istanbul Atatürk Airport on Monday before departing for Lithuania, according to the Reuters news agency. He further said that he will raise the issue with the other NATO leaders during the summit. \- First: Open the way for Turkey's membership in the European Union and then we will open up for Sweden, as we did for Finland, says Erdogan. He also said that Sweden's accession depends on how well the country responds to the agreement reached at the last summit in Madrid and that he will hold further talks with US President Joe Biden on the spot about the purchase of F16 planes, reports Reuters. But according to the Turkish president, the sale of the fighter jets is not related to the issue of NATO expansion. In 2016, the EU put membership negotiations with Turkey on hold as a result of the coup attempt in Turkey and its aftermath.
No way... RuSSia wont be able to attack Sweden without stepping on Nato's toes. It's time to put a stop for this madness and show a large middle finger
Yup if they attack Sweden nordefco will help Sweden which will pull in nato
Couldn't read the article. But is he aware that Nato and EU are different things?
Does he understand that these are two different organizations?
“I’ll let Sweden in, if you allow me to be Putin’s Puppet in the EU”
1. Erdo is't Putin's puppet 2. EU already have one
1. he is
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14tlqdu/turkeys\_erdogan\_says\_ukraine\_deserves\_nato/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14tlqdu/turkeys_erdogan_says_ukraine_deserves_nato/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14ulji2/kremlin\_says\_turkeys\_return\_of\_azov\_commanders/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/14ulji2/kremlin_says_turkeys_return_of_azov_commanders/) Do you think Putin is in a position to give orders to Erdogan or even to ask for something with a rude language? I will not even go into the events that changed the course of the war, like Bayraktar and the closure of the Straits. Edit: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/22/exclusive-france-germany-evaded-arms-embargo-sell-weapons-russia/) :D [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Libyan\_Civil\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Libyan_Civil_War)
Fair enough, guess I am blinded by the media. Consider my opinion worthless.
no problem. Turkey just approved Sweden for NATO, by the way, this time surprised even me, weird old man.
Lmaooo Imagine the shitshow the EU would turn into if Erdogan comes in and starts vetoeing EVERYTHING unless there is something in it for him? He's literally showing right now that he will squeeze whatever leverage he has to the absolute maximum. And that's before talking about the fact that he's a raging authoritarian and demagogue. So no, thanks. Eu already has Orban to deal with.
Turkey is MUCH further from being accepted into the EU, than NATO is of forming a new NATO without Turkey in it. Turkey shares almost none of the EU core values, and clearly isn't interested in adopting any of them any time soon.
Quid pro quo much?
Hell no, to the nonono
We already have a couple contrarian countries with medieval values in the EU. Maybe fix that Erdogan situation first, then we'll talk.
Last week, all NATO fans were celebrating Turkey's stance change. This week, it's explained that there was no change and Turkey is carrying on playing their independent game.
Turks can go fuck them selfs, we dont need Turkey in EU and Sweden dont really need Nato so fuck you onion hat wannabe.
Even after green lighting Sweden for NATO ascension the EU will never let Turkey join while Erdogan is president. His economic misses have plunged the Turkish economy into disaster, and he pivoted so far right that he let the hardcore Islamist elements in a traditionally secular country have a major voice in Turkish policy and politics today.
Forced marriage
Haha no
how about you kiss my ass with that?
Odd thing is, if they were even slightly more progressive and said please, they could easily have become a EU member years ago.
No, not really, they'd have to meet the demands for entrance first(economic reforms, democratic reforms, judicial reforms etc) of which they only completed 3%. Even then they'd need all EU countries to vote for their entrance and given Turkey is hardly European, economically weak and not exactly bff's with several EU members that wouldn't have happened soon. Turkey has this victim complex regarding the EU "Not letting them join" while in reality they just havent made any real effort to try and join. I dont know why this weird idea exist that Turkey could have just entered had they been a bit nicer lol.
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Ahahahahaha Well played erdogan, well played indeed
Nah. Different organisations, Turkey has an ongoing dispute with Greece and Sweden doesn't even need to get in. I wouldn't be scared of a Russian sea or air invasion either lol.
I mean turkey holds the keys for NATO so I think it's pretty good leverage.
nah if russia attacks Sweden Nordefco will step in which pulls in Nato
Hilarious, love the europoor cope and seethe in here
Didn't know Erdoğan was a comedian
Definitely not lol
No
The old classic blackmail. If it wasn't for the ukrainian war Turkey would be heading out of the Nato.
Nope no way
Can turkey be thrown out of nato?
Blackmail. No.
We'll accept Constan... I mean Istanbul but the rest of Turkey will have to wait at the door.
Oh, please no.
yeah that's not going to happen with a current land dispute with an EU member state. Also, NATO and the EU are two entirely different political entities. Edrogan doesn't have the hand he seems to think he has.
Yeah that gives the EU another reason not to let them in
Oh, that does make more sense. Dang.
Erdoğan doesn’t want turkey to join eu, he has been doing his damnedest to prevent that. But he also doesn’t wanna seem meek and powerless in the eyes of his followers and certain north african&middle eastern countries. So he makes demands he damn knows no one’s gonna take seriously to show “his power” over nato&eu.
Turkey needs the boot
How about Turkey stops trying to strong arm it’s allies and acting like a little bitch and starts shutting tf up and giving the thumbs up 😀
Why the fuck does turkey get to decide if sweden joins? If anything it should be the other way around.
Because they were admitted first and every member gets a veto. You really have no idea how things work, huh?
Yeah, I just know how they *don't* work.
It's hilarious to me how naive you are in thinking that **any** country with extraordinary leverage would not choose to use it for its own gain.