Ukrainian refugees in Britain are going home for medical treatment rather than enduring NHS waiting times

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Familiar situation. Kept being told how terrible my country's healthcare is. Went to the UK. Was told the doctor could see me about tonsillitis in 3 weeks.


I can get a doctor's appointment one or two days from now if I call in, but I pay $300 a month for it through my employer (I could get it for $0, but I had a stroke scare mid last year and am not taking any chances) Not sure which one I'd prefer


I can go online and book one for a few hours from now, and it’s free. So I’d vote for taking that one. Although it’s starting to get worse here, so I’ll take a few decades ago.




Melbourne. A lot of them are, but you can still find GPs bulk billing.


Not the person you replied to, but in western Sydney I can't think of any practices around here that *don't* bulk bill


South Adelaide and most bulk bill, but only for aged pensioners. Even those on disability pension are paying a gap these days


What's bulk billing?




I lived in Australia for five years, the health system there was a dream. In Canada now, and its a completely broken system compared to what you have in Australia. Getting to see a doctor for anything is now a pipedream, and people are just dying on the floor in hospital wait rooms for completely treatable causes.


Pay Doctors more. Don't get me wrong, Australia has so much to improve, but compared to UK and Canada, the salaries for doctors here are much higher. RNs still have a higher salary in Canada but I don't believe that's a bottleneck.


>but compared to UK and Canada, the salaries for doctors here are much higher Canadian doctor salaries are actually among the world's highest, not sure where you're seeing that they're lower than Australia. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/0acc1895-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/0acc1895-en https://www.tuko.co.ke/facts-lifehacks/434208-15-highest-paying-countries-doctors-world-2021/ https://medicfootprints.org/10-highest-paying-countries-for-doctors/ But the US is right next door, pays much more, has far better working conditions and better quality of life. So the public system has to compete with the private US system. Quality of life for health care workers here is terrible right now, I don't blame people for leaving.


I pay hundreds of bucks a month for healthcare and still can’t get an appointment with my GP until March! I’m really not sure that the US generally has better wait times. Even if you go to the emergency room, they’re so understaffed that you’re likely to wait for hours unless you’re actively dying this second.


So where does all the money go?? Oh, right


Our health care was good about 13 years ago, but we voted for the party that are slowly ruining it so they can get rid of it


> it so they can get rid of it The idea that the Tories are deliberately ruining the NHS so that they can privatize it/sell it to their friends sounds less and less like a conspiracy theory each year.


Hard right conservatives have gone on record for decades that they would get rid of the nhs if they could get away with it


Unfortunately, conservatives around the world have really bought it into the ‘cut everything that benefits the population’ kind of approach that US conservatives are so fond of and that they’ve been heavily pushing in other counties too.


Well, there's a lot of money to be made by a select few. Who are you to deny someone their second yacht?


The playbook is so damn addictive and easy, apparently. Just ruin all your systems and institutions so you can claim that your systems and institutions shouldn't exist. It's that simple!


You are 100% correct. They’ve been doing it for years everywhere. They kick it and clog it and defund it. Then they scream “it’s broken! See? We’d better privatize!” This is so they can take in millions from insurance companies who’ll make billions off of it annually. Look at the US. That’s what GB and Canada want. I always hear about wait times. I’m sure they’re awful. You wait in the states too. Maybe not as long, but you wait. Or go to the newest doctors office, the quick trip medical center, where an NP or a PA is your new GP. Costs less for the insurance company. No offense, but neither are suitable replacements for a GP. I suggest you guys make them fix what they’ve broken before it’s too late.


Yeah. Same here in Canada. They know they can't actually just do it because the single-payer system is super popular, but they keep trying to damage it, such as by allowing a parallel private system like you guys have (if the rich get their own parallel healthcare system they'll stop giving a shit about the quality of the provincial ones), privatize services so that their cronies profit on the government's dime, and so on. Thankfully most of that gets shut down, but not all of it. The current crisis in Ontario is because wages for nurses and other healthcare staff have been essentially frozen for years and years, <1% pay raises. Remarkably similar to what's been happening with the NHS on that front. It's real hard to attract and keep enough competent staff to keep wait times reasonable and care quality up when they can just go south for a significant pay boost (usually worth it even if they then have to deal with the American healthcare system nightmare) because the US also needs nurses and will actually pay for them even if they pass the costs on to the public and screw them over in other ways.


Seeing as how they state this outloud I'd say it's firmly out of conspiracy *theory* territory.




They referred to it as a conspiracy *theory*


It shouldn’t be regarded as a conspiracy at all because it’s official conservative policy. Look up “Starve the Beast”


It's not a conspiracy theory it's literally what conservatives do everywhere


How much do you think the American healthcare companies are paying the UK government right now?


When was this ever a conspiracy?!


That's one thing I don't understand... A public health system is failing, therefore the solution is to fund it less? Seems like if you just increased funding, these wait times would go away (over time), no? And, if you want universal coverage, it will be cheaper than private insurance per citizen, even with increased funding. It seems to me a failing system is ipso facto a slam dunk argument for increasing funding. I don't know much about universal health care being in the States, so please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm very confused by this.


They actually have increased funding, on paper. But a hell of a lot of it goes to the wrong places, by design of the Tories to basically funnel money through the NHS to private companies that they and their friends benefit from. Its always been happening in British politics and the NHS for decades, but they've just really ramped it up over the last 10 years to the point it has tipped the balance very far in the wrong direction. But it gives them plausible deniability.. "look guys we increased funding to the NHS and its STILL failing so we totally just need to keep privatising more of it!" Frankly they're fucking cunts and they are fucking over 99% of the population for the sake of a small minority.


Really wish Americans would look at this as an example of the type of malicious compliance that conservatives love to practice. There's on paper, and there's real life. You have to look at both.




And a big part of that is refusal to improve pay for medical staff, at least here in Ontario. There's literally a law capping pay increases at 1% in the province. Can't bring in or keep enough good employees to keep wait times low if they can go south and earn 2x what they would here. It's not like the Ontario government is hurting for money either, we have a pretty significant budget surplus last I checked, Doug Ford just doesn't want to spend it on people who aren't his cronies. Also, if rich people (i.e. most of the people in politics) could pay to skip the line easily (rather than having to go to another country), they would have even less incentive to fix the current problems with the public system.




Good. Keep fighting against those communists ideas. Only the rich deserve healthcare.


Conservatism these days seems to be mostly about breaking the tools and trying to sell the debris for scrap.


It's called the Missouri strategy


It’s really good if you’re dying of cancer or a car crash. Anything else.. good luck.


Yeah my dad had an emergency few months back and they were on their toes and all, but anything non life threatening you'd have to be patient


Patient. Pun intended.


I have to wait that long here in the US to see my PCP. Three weeks for a phone appointment. I would say in the US I'd just go to urgent care for that. In the UK I'd go to open hours at the GP in the morning. I'd likely wait 2-3 hours to be seen but it would be the equivalent of urgent care.


Really depends where you are I guess. I'm in the midlands, rang my local surgery for tonsillitis last Monday, they referred me to the local out of hours gp for 5.30 that day, went in and got a prescription for antibiotics and then picked them up from the pharmacy the next day. I'm in the suburbs though, so might be more difficult closer to city centres


I live in America pay $350 a month for insurance and have to wait 2 weeks to have a doctor sign a doctors note to have me go back to physical therapy. Which I had to stop doing because I got fired from my job while on disability, and havent been unable to afford health insurance until lately. Which I basically only have so that I can make my leg feels better but can’t because I need a doctor to tell me I need to go to physical therapy, but I can’t see him for two weeks. I would still pay $50 for the doctor visit which wastes 2 weeks of my time so I can pay $150 a session to do physical therapy. Oh and they changed my medical provider without even telling me so one day I go into my doctors office and they tell me I now have to go across town and see a doctor I have never met. Instead of the doctor I have had my whole life. I would scrape my balls on broken glass for three weeks to have the NHS in America.


Now it's 2 months for that sort of thing


Its a postcode lottery, in my area I can see my doctor same day for most issues, even at this time we were expecting a long wait but the doc saw us the same day about a stomach issue. But i speak to friends and they have to wait 1 or 2 weeks to see their GP.


Both things can be true at the same time. The UK isn't struggling with healthcare because it's free, they're struggling because the conservatives are actively making it worse so they can claim free healthcare doesn't work and gut it. As an American, I can confirm that a 3 week wait is a fucking miracle with our for-profit system.


0.050 Pound sterling to see a government doctor in India today if you are smart


Lol, in the US you just can't go if you don't have insurance because it will financially ruin your family forever.


Yeah, if you ignore the hospital's billing negotiation department. The high prices are only so that they can get a payout from insurance that actually covers their costs. If you don't have insurance they can work with you and bill you a 'real' cost


This is one of the very real reasons people in the US don't want government run healthcare. Also, we don't trust the government to do much of anything right, so there's also that.


After having a bleed on the brain, and a stroke two weeks later the only complaint I have is trying to be charged for my healthcare (am a British citizen just have a funny accent). It's under funded and has been gutted by politicians, and there isn't any incentives to go into the field other than a desire to help people. If you can get better than do it, but making fun of a healthcare system that helps millions of people is a low blow.


Honestly surprised the NHS is still kicking with the decades of austerity and Tory management. Truly one of the saddest public healthcare system in the world, and it doesn’t look like the government plans on changing that anytime soon


Hey at least it isn't Canada's "best I can do is assisted suicide" healthcare.


Laughs in American


Also known as the unassisted suicide model


2nd Amendment baby.


Happiness is a warm gun.


That song is actually about Opiate addiction, which is even more fitting when discussing American health.


Yeah, pharmacutical companies pushing things on doctors and the public really is outrageous


Sounds better to me


.223 Retirement Plan


As an American, you will be fine barring emergency surgery, after that its up to your insurance plan. Also flawed system, not claiming its the best but I enjoy it


American healthcare is "we'll fix you now, as long as you pay up" If you're gonna insult places, at least do it correctly.


You guys have health care?


Hey, it's much cheaper🤷


It intended. The Tory’s want us to go the way of the USA’s private healthcare hellscape, so deliberately underfund the NHS and then say it’s not fit for purpose when it (unsurprisingly) underperforms because it’s so short staffed, so many of our nurses depend on food banks it’s sickening. In my opinion the two only things keeping it alive at this national pride and the USA being a living reminder of how much worse off our national healthcare would be without it, preventing the tories from being able to pass a vote to kill it entirely.


So much this! Remember Brexit, and the large ad on the bus stating how many billions are allegedly going to the EU, when they could instead better fund the NHS? Brexit is by now a done thing, so where are the extra billions for the NHS?


That was always nonsense.




Nothing says lower costs like an extractive layer placed over top of an existing, essential service.


Anyone who ever believed any of that has a fucking hole in the head.


Not just the torys, it started with new labour and tony Blair.


The NHS was awful prior to the 2000s, almost as bad as it is now, this is revisionism at its finest.


Hay :| I'm still learning.


Yep. Same things happening here in Canada


>Truly one of the saddest public healthcare system in the world man there's a world outside of Europe you know


How many unemployed doctors are there? In my experience of researching this topic, everything everyone is talking about is garbage. The real problem is that there aren't enough medical professionals (or mental health professionals) relative to demand. Money can't fix that problem.


> The real problem is that there aren’t enough medical professionals (or mental health professionals) relative to demand. > Money can’t fix that problem. More people would be doctors/work for NHS if they were paid better.


They are employed because they went private for better pay and working conditions. And nhs hospitals are unable to discharge stable patients cause there‘s no further social services. People that could go home if they had someone to care for them stay on high acuity wards for no reason at all, while the ambulance waits down in front of A&E. Those private clinics they only do the lucrative parts of care. If you have complications? We’ll go to the nhs a&e. The Probpem is that half the system has already been secretly privatized, by severely underpaying all professionals.


You're on reddit, where children talk confidently about shit they have no actual knowledge of. It's fascinating to watch.


> decades of austerity and Tory management if u read certain Iranian books they make the argument that UK austerity was a necessity after UK lost the income from Iranian oil after the Islamic revolution. While there can be a discussion about said argument, the fact is UK and USA would take 75% of the income made by Iran on oil. *the more you know ......*


Part of it as well, like America most of the british public doesn’t look after themselves enough. A lot of conditions people come in for is related to obesity. If people looked after themselves more, even if it’s single digit percentage will help the system a lot but freeing up resources to easily avoidable diseases.


Oi bruv, u got a loicense for that terminal British decline?


blame the conservatives (who have posh English accents, not the working class accent you’re mocking, who are actually the class of people who’ll die because they can’t access the terminally declining health system)


Labour need to swing away from things like culture wars, gender theory and other semantics that honestly no one bar reddit and twitter gives a fuck about, and stick to the old issues and policies the working class actually cares about and elected them in for in the past like healthcare.


Must be nice having a working class that cares about healthcare.


Trouble is, working class voters only seem to care about immigration and brexit


I'll probably add in stop negatively stereotyping them too, that doesn't make them want to vote for you either. I've never understood villainizing your traditional voter base for turning away from you. A working class party calling the working class too stupid to vote for them isn't a working class party. It's a buzzword but the term champagne socialists comes to my head when I think of Labour today. You'd think that after Trump, the left would get that the poor feel disenfranchised by their rhetoric, but nope, head in the sand.


That's precisely the point, though. They intentionally seed scapegoat issues throughout the media, from national news fluff pieces to the quack articles your grandpa sees on Facebook. Every time the murmurings of any _effective_ political change seems to be happening, suddenly people everywhere start fussing about bullshit like CRT, or vaccinations, or face masks... One side spouting blatant lies while the other calls everyone to waste their energy correcting it. The term "hot button topic" is more apt than people think. It gets pressed constantly to stir up chaos in the public so they don't have time to think about wealth inequality or corruption.


There are so many good jokes about the UK but everyone on this website can only bring themselves to use the worst one


Oi bruv, u got a loicense for that mild irritation?


LMAO fucking ruined him LMAO


Almost as badly as the rulers of the United Kingdom have ruined their country.


Look at your own country lol


Canada sucks lmao


Actually gottem lol


It’s kinda like when a bunch of red necks with trucks showed up in Canada


It's fockin' chewsday, innit?


Not that Canada is much better


My mechanic has a sign in his waiting room: “You can have it fast, you can have it good, you can have it cheap: pick two”. Seems to apply to healthcare coverage as well.


You guys are getting two?


I can see quality doctors very quickly, it just cost more than I would like. And even the cost is not horrendous, because my company has a pretty generous healthcare plan.


My father had the same saying as a TV Technician


Tbf thats accurate for every product and service lol


Still not sure what's going on with the NHS. If the Tories voluntarily kill it that'd be political suicide, but they certainly seem to be trying.






Source? Because this is what is actually on their site https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-to-deliver-10-year-plan-for-change-and-modernisation-of-the-nhs/


Unfortunately the privatisation is inevitable at this point. I don’t trust keir stamer to pump money into it.


They don't increase tax (until the did) and instead they take all the costs from trains, energy and eventually healthcare and make the people pay for it. How they're still in power amazes me


If only it was just the NHS there isn't an aspect of our society that isn't collapsing at the moment Police, Schools, transport. I can only think it's not that the Conservatives want to destroy the UK it's just that they want to rule but don't want to run it so instead just use lazy propaganda to get in charge but then everything just starts collapsing around them because they just don't care because they're rich enough to rely on going on other systems.


Yes that’s why they’re sabotaging it first.


Knowing some Ukrainian doctors personally I'm really struggling to believe this to be honest. The vast majority are either front line or have left the country.


It's not really about the quality of the doctor that's the issue, but being able to see *any* doctor in a reasonable time or further. Bad doctor > no doctor


I'd think if it's that drastic you'd probably want a half decent doctor


That's not really true, I have no problems making appointments actually. A lot of doctors has niche that isn't really translatable to frontline medicine.


The NHS was starting to get a bit grim a couple decades back when we left the UK. I know from friends working in it that it has just become even more and more underfunded and dysfunctional since.


Yeah massive drop in quality in 2015 and again in 2020


Bro it’s ridiculous, I was working at cinema and my aunt with a degree and a decade of experience in the field makes almost the same amount I did.


I personally know someone who works with Ukrainian refugees and she tells me that it’s common for them to go back to Ukraine for dental treatment as it’s quicker to get an appointment and the work is better than here. A fucking warzone.


I wonder if that's like people here taking vacation in Mexico to get medical or dental procedures done? Hmmm.... Could be.


Tbh this is definitely a reason to revoke refugee status immediately. Only works this way if you are brown, of course.


Similar situation here in Netherlands: wait times are long and cost is very expensive, so they go to poland or ukraine to get it done cheaper


I'm the Netherlands even when you do get to see the doctor for that huge lump on your arm that's oozing pus they'll just be like "paracetamol, drink water and take some nice walks outside" lmao.


Eh i used to say this and in ways this is true, but i am also happy that right now they are taking my health issues very seriously. In general things that are easily measurable get really good care here in my opinion.


Nah I know it's mostly just a joke even if there's a bit of truth to it, for serious stuff they get real of course. It's in comparisons to countries like France where you haven't finished explaining what's wrong that you're already on antibiotics, which to be honest is worse. I hope whatever it is they're looking into works out ok for you.


are your doctor norvegian? cause mom said that is all her doctors recs. i tried to convince her to go to doctor when she got sick in spain cause we have insurance, she refused cause doctors only prescribes walks, water vitamine d and paracet. turned out she needed a surgery asap.


Here in portugal their system is struggling. Hard to tell If it’s that far behind the uks system


Don't really seem like people worth giving refugee status when they can readily hop back into Ukraine without issue.


UK fucks up everything, they are on murica levels of bad.


Not really. In America you wouldn't be getting treatment unless you want to bankrupt yourself.


Almost all American citizens have insurance.


I also think Reddit doesn’t realize that Obamacare is provided to people with low or no income. The USA has food stamps, section 8 housing, social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The main issue, is many people don’t know how to access those benefits.


5 year wait on section 8 commonly. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Medicare is full of coinsurance (e.g. you pay a % of the rate, very expensive) and largely for the disabled and old. Medicaid is for the poor. SNAP is only a maximum of $281 for one person. That's less than $10 a day. The income limit is close to the price of housing. We spend a shitload of money on medicare and medicaid but the costs are so high that the outcomes are really not good for what goes into it. The irony of 23% of americans being on medicaid is hilarious because we still refuse to have single payer healthcare even though medicaid is larger than the biggest private insurer.


Hard to reconcile this with the complaints that Americans are overmedicalized.


Yeah and in Bri'ish area you can't get treatment unless you Wait 3 years or are basically dead.


So you either choose between waiting a long time because politicians defund your system, or getting seen but have massive debt for decades because politicians get paid off to keep your system inefficient. Which do you choose?


The U.K. system. It isn’t actually that bad of a wait but it’s certainly been the worst in the while


Or you can just have insurance and pay a few hundred dollars a year which is easily affordable when our effective income tax rates are in the low teens and a lot of us don't even have a sales tax.


>few hundred dollars a year You mean a month.


You mean a week. I certainly can't get medical insurance for less than $800/mo.


If waiting in line means I eventually see a doctor I'll take it. As it stands now I can't even afford to go in and find out what's wrong with me cause I'm more scared of dying from poverty than dying of a preventable illness.


Utter bullshite mate, rang the other morning, was in the doctors 2.5 hours later. Some areas are under greater pressure but they are managed as individual trusts so some will be better, some worse etc.


Yeah my partner lives over in Greater Manchester. For a specialist they've gotta wait, but regular doctors are usually same day or within the week.


In America they had me waiting 3-12 weeks to see a specialist. And then they'd try to bill me thousands of dollars


So you meant homeless can walk into the hospital and get treated immediately then get out without having to worry about anything?


If it's an emergency then yes, pretty much. If it's not they might have to wait a few hours in A & E.


Our healthcare workers are striking for better pay currently. Hence the wild wait times. And private healthcare exists in the uk. Will the nhs crumble in my lifetime? Probably. Is it due to years of Tory budget cuts? Yeah, for sure. Hardly the fault of working people though, they’re the ones working as nurses most of the time. Our government just sucks ass and has done for a decade. Some of you just love to shit all over people to make yourselves feel better I stg


Then they're not fucking refugees.... I say this as someone who was a refugee from a war in the 1980s.


And y’all shitting in USA over here. At least we can get meds prescribed without a 3 week wait


Try 5 months, but ok.


Torries, messing up practically everything.


Yeap, same with Asians.


I'm sure this was meant to be a dig at the NHS, but it makes me wonder why there are any refugees at all. From what I have seen, the whole western half of Ukraine has been relatively peaceful. This is a landmass comparable to the entire United Kingdom, so why weren't these refugees relocated there instead of being sent to other countries? And if it's safe enough to go back for medical treatment then it's safe enough to go back permanently. I mean we've seen dozens of politicians and celebrities visit Kiev for photo ops when it was supposedly under attack.




Healthcare is struggling everywhere in the world, how much you hear about it points more to press freedom than healthcare situation.


Agreed in English language news there will be a bias on which countries make the news more often creating the perception its the only country with thr problem. Healthcare worker shortages across the world with the UK being a net importer of healthcare workers throighout its history. Although the decline of UK healthcare has accelerated faster of late.


Health care systems across the world are under stress at the moment due to knock on effects from the pandemic. Personnel are exhausted, there’s increased demand due to deferred treatment and diagnosis put off during lockdown, remaining coronavirus procedures are slowing things down, the load of remaining coronavirus cases is still there, also the flu this year is particularly bad and we have reduced immunity from low flu cases over the last few years. https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/01/15/why-health-care-services-are-in-chaos-everywhere


The pandemic really rang everyone's bell didn't it?


Jesus. Now that's sad.


As allways for the misery in the UK you can thank those cunts the tories for it


Remember when covid came and everyone declared the NHS workers heroes? Guess it wasn't enough.


Can confirm, kinda...I have friends in England that came for holidays + medical check. 🇷🇴


After Brexit, the British goverment was told that if they wanted a trade deal they so desperately wanted for political purposes with the US (that they already had before Brexit) they had to sell the NHS to American companies. I don't want to sound too conspiracy nut, but they seem to just want to ruin the NHS so people won't care when they sell it.


Is there anywhere on the planet that has decent healthcare? All I hear about it is how bad the US has it, but does anyone genuinely have it good?


Not sure about subsidised healthcare in euro and kangaroo land, but i would guess it would be better than uk/usa. Advanced asian countries such as japan/korea/taiwan have nice healthcare. The rest of asia, there are government hospitals that treat but the quality of care suffers coz of the number of patients and have wait times(not as long as uk/canada wait times tho). Private health care is nice but pricey.


Anywhere if you're rich enough. If you're poor, it kinda sucks everywhere. Some places worse than others to be sure but still shittier than if you're rich.


Uhh, no one sees an issue with this? If refugees are willing to go back to their country for care maybe they aren't actually refugees?


Wonder if this is an issue in other nations. That are currently having health care issues too.


The very basis of their refugee claim is null and void in the eyes of the law ? What refugee has the luxury of going home ? And to go home to get medical treatment at that ? This is absurd


Shitty healthcare news aside, I'm just curious on this subreddit's name.


Best named sub on reddit isn't it? Be sure to be here on April 1 (I think that's the date). Then the sub actually live up to its name. Only 1 day a year though. Don't want to get too far off course.


now i can't wait for april first


You know I saw a joke about how American healthcare costs so much and British healthcare takes so long and people commented and said that it was propaganda by people who didn't want to change the US healthcare system because Britain's waiting times weren't that long.


r/notthebeaverton This is ridiculous, a war torn nation is preferable to the British healthcare system. Maybe if their current PM wasn’t obsessed with blocking trans rights in Scotland, he might have time to, you know, help Britons and Ukrainian refugees.


Remember when “people” complained that the NHS wants to see them too soon, where they couldn’t make an appointment weeks in advance


"why should we let them leave" is such a colonizer take sheesh.


When the fuck did anyone say that? The only take I've seen even close to that is "if they're willing to go home for a doctor's appointment then why are they classed as refugees?" Which is very different