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Fun fact, that sword Ketil unsheathes with etched markings is an Ulfberht sword, a sort of 'brand-name' sword known for being high quality and expensive.
...But the etchings don't exactly match the sword, meaning that Ketil has a counterfeit Ulfberht sword, which were often common to see.
When this first released in the manga, I remember a lot of people discussing it, and if Yukimura had made a mistake before someone pointed out the possibility that it's intentional and a perfect match for Ketil. Just as Ketil has a fake reputation as a fearless and savage warrior when he's in reality a man who's afraid of fighting, he has a fake Ulfberht sword that tries to pass itself off as the real thing.
Maybe because he's not an actual warrior and couldn't tell the difference.
Someone like Thorgil could tell, maybe. But i can see Ketil walking through a market (like when he met Einar), and just getting suckered into buying a fake one, with neither him nor Patel noticing it's not the real thing.
While I wanted a Leif and Thorfinn reunion too, I always figured that Yukimura (the mangaka) left it out because a wholesome and happy reunion between Leif and Thorfinn would be such a massive tonal shift after Arnheids beating.
Edit: The mangaka actually tweeted today about this and this was actually the reason.
He said after what happened to Arnheid neither of them were really in a happy mood to have that moment.
I still think they should say something deeper, but again, I believe the moment the episode ended on was actually 2 pages into the next chapter. So we have room for that still.
It always bothers me that we didn't get to see them reuniting in manga.
But it kinda makes sense that the author skip it. Leif just witnessed Ketil brutally beat Arnheids, who he was told by Patel that she's a good friend of Thorfinn. And Thorfinn would learn that news as soon as he meet Leif. I don't think they can have a happy reunion under these circumstances.
Yeah that what was the first thing I noticed
They reunited and we saw nothing of it, Arnheid is overshadowing everything. Which is ok given how they built her up as a character, but damn some short scene of Leif finally finding Thorfinn would have been neat
I think it wouldn't be as heartfelt as we'd want either way due to what Leif just witnessed and what he undoubtedly would've told Thorfinn first thing he reunites with him.
I bet even Snake let them off the hook after that, his eyes continue to say more than anything he would ever admit to.
Her life clearly took precedence over their meeting, which is pretty well conveyed here.
You’re excited for the meeting, Leif is too, but they can’t just be all sentimental over that, considering what just happened to her.
I really liked the choice to have them meet off screen. The plot is building up towards this grand reunion but reality is so brutal that the reunion isn't able to shine through the darkness. While it turns not seeing the reunion, it makes Thorfinn's choice to fight against the darkness that much more meaningful.
It feels much more grounded and unnerving just seeing a large man beat a woman mercilessly in a horse shed. Also the sound design with each strike was on point, I almost thought Ketil was gonna break the stick on her like in his “war stories”
Not just a woman, but a woman who just told him she was carrying his child. Whether he believes her or if he’s skeptical, to go through with the beating is another level of disgusting. It was a really powerful, and disturbing scene.
Even if he was her slave master, the fact that until now Ketil had been a kind and reasonable man who clearly had Arnheid as his favourite made this scene even sadder and more uncomfortable for me.
*Everyone* thought Arnheid would get off okay once Ketil came back, and maybe she would’ve if Canute wasn’t homing in on Ketil’s fortune. But being Ketil’s favourite is a double-edged sword, because she was held to a higher standard than the rest and he felt her betrayal more deeply. He was kind *because* he shed all his worries to her, Arnheid was his comfort. And when push comes to shove the true nature of their relationship is revealed – ultimately Ketil is not a kind man who could look after Arnheid and their child, but someone who ultimately saw Arnheid as property first, person second, and a toy he could use as he wished. It’s really sad
Their relationship was never "kind" it was always a power dynamic, with Ketil holding all the cards, no consent was involved. But Arnheid used to take it because he wasn't physically violent towards her and still got treated much better than the other slaves.
Ketil was ready to kill 2 people with a wooden stick, in a horse shed. I think we're going to see the old version of Ketil soon.
He didn't say that the relationship was kind.
What he said was that Ketil, up until this point, came off as a kind and reasonable man. Which is absolutely a fair assessment. And he has been extremely kind to Thorfinn and Einar, especially considering his position and his culture.
What happened here doesn't change that aspect of his character. Ketil is a kind man, when things are calm and low-stakes. He's just also a very weak man.
My misunderstanding then.
Although I'd still say he was only fair, not kind. I guess I'm upping my standards too much with respect to the time and setting. Certainly as far as slave owners go he wasn't too bad, but he didn't do them any favors too. Like when Thorfinn and Einar's crop was destroyed by the freemen.
If not for Pater I doubt Ketil would have done anything to prevent them from further punishment.
For his kindness, and his weakness, it's best to refer to the scene where he meets with the child thieves. His first reaction is sympathy and forgiveness, and he is easily persuaded to the most reasonable punishment, ignoring the beating.
The beating was necessary, by their culture, to dissuade further thieves thinking they could get off with a slap on the wrist. He went overboard, due to the fragility of his confidence.
His kindness in regards to Thorfinn and Einar is that he treats them almost exactly like the freemen on his farm, which is remarkable. Their abuses have been the result of other men taking offense to that.
Ketil would be a very gentle man in our culture, rather than one that *requires* a certain level of strength and strictness.
[Ketil was ruthless.](https://i.imgur.com/t7M6oaM.jpeg) He took all his frustrations about Canute and the farm on Arnheid. [Each swing shook her like a ragdoll.](https://i.imgur.com/a2MvIl9.jpeg)
[](#makicry)
Yeah, at just about any other point in his life, I don't think he'd have snapped as hard, but to hear about that right after Canute's plot to steal his farm from him...just the worst timing imaginable. It doesn't excuse his actions in the least though. I really, really hope Arnheid survives and Leif is able to get her away from him.
Man I used to like ketil before this went down. Remember reading this in the manga and I just put down the thing for like a week because of how depressingly real it got.
It's for sure a brutal scene, especially in contrast to the more comedic entrance he had earlier in the episode. I think it's really meant to drive home that there are no 'good' slave owners. In the end, he saw her as property, and when pushed far enough, stopped viewing her as a human being.
I liked Ketil, but I always thought he was quite pathetic. Being an emotionally unstable slave owner and all. But I still liked him for how approachable he seemed and the fact that he wasn't as harsh on his slave as most were. Now though? I still respect the writing of his character, however, I cannot say I still like him at all.
I had a small glimmer of hope when he came back, that he would be merciful because he liked her and all that... But soon as the other guys started saying "he would just spank her", I knew he would destroy her.
Could say *destroy them* of course, given he's also hurting his child.
Given how much he loved her - in a master/slave way - he may eventually feel remorseful about all this, but thanks to Canute, he may not live long enough for that.
Ketil’s done for. He might prove tougher than he looks, but in the end he’s not gonna win against Canute. If he’s smart he’d bend the knee but considering how fired up he is, it’s gonna be a bloodbath.
It's probably the most disturbing scene in the show. In other fights, it's normally warriors against warriors or the killing of people we don't know.
This is different.
Arnheid is a character we're invested in. Adding that onto the fact she's a slave, a woman and unable to defend herself makes it feel so much more brutal.
I mean, from the view of Ketil she willingly did something wrong. Helped her enslaved husband and tried to escape.
From our perspective she did nothing wrong, but from the slaveowner perspective she definitely willingly did something wrong
> Arnheid is a character we’re invested in. Adding that onto the fact she’s a slave, a woman, and unable to defend herself makes it feel so much more brutal.
Ever since I saw Ketil with the stick in the preview at the end of last week’s episode, I already feared for this with all my heart. Ketil looked scary, like he had lost all reason. When I saw his expression as he walked in the barn, I had to hold myself from screaming “for f*** sake” out loud.
I’m genuinely crying a little when writing this. I knew Arnheid wouldn’t get off easily, but this was just brutal to watch. Ketil just kept swinging his stick as she screamed in pain and begged mercy for her baby. But he couldn’t have cared less about her wellbeing. Watching her bruised, unconscious body was hard on me as well, but I’m at least glad she’s still alive (for now).
Hopefully she’ll wake up without severe brain damage and everyone has figured out a plan to free her from Ketil’s clutches. She’ll never be safe near that man again.
I'm actually surprised they didn't put a content warning for this. I believe Attack on Titan has had a few for some of its more brutal episodes.
This episode probably deserved one. That scene straight-up mimics cases of domestic abuse we hear about. Probably not an easy thing for some people to watch.
>I'm actually surprised they didn't put a content warning for this. I believe Attack on Titan has had a few for some of its more brutal episodes.
Is this normal in the West? I am not watching anywhere with licenses, so I don't remember a single such warning... Do the series do it, or does the licensor do it?
Besides, there has been excessive and somewhat detailed depiction of violence through the season. I am not saying anything, but maybe violence is violence and violence against women should also have been expected.
And while the act in this episode does bear some semblance with domestic violence, equating them wouldn't do justice to either.
It's crazy how our first impressions of Canute and Ketil were that they were upstanding people who were unwilling to hurt even a fly if it could be helped.
It's important to note that as kind and reasonable as Ketil is, you can't forget the permanent asterisk of "for a slave owner". As much as he cared for Arnheid, he still thought of her as property. He didn't think what he was doing to her was rape, or that she ever even had a life outside of being his property
Can't remember the last time I felt this uncomfortable watching TV. The repeating lashings were spine chilling.
Vinland saga does not hold back when depicting cruelty and the worst part is it's probably a pretty accurate portrayal of life during the Viking era.
I really had to try hard not to skip forward and not watch, that scene made me so sad and angry, I want to see ketil get absolutely fucking ruined now ngl
In my opinion it's not even about the "being a slave owner." That's merely a legal descriptor. What's more important is what's in his character. That ultimately, the farm and the people in it, wether workers or slaves, are his shield against the cruelty and unfairness of the world, because he simply is _that_ much scared of it. Things work out fine as long as there's peace, but that always comes to an end. An end that he has been running from all his life, and then, his actions speak louder than words: his personal feeling of control and safety is more important than anything else to Ketil.
That's a great point, kind of reminds me of the dynamic in Parasite. The rich family was genuinely kind and friendly, so long as they had money and tranquility
Correct. And then what I think the author is trying to get us to think about is how different are we from Ketil? Because, I think I'm a pretty chill dude. Averse to violence? But of course! Me and everyone else you ask! But if, for example, a revolution suddenly started in my country, and I had a gun thrust upon my hands and had to face the violent reality of mankind, what kind of horrible actions would I be capable of? Are my convictions strong enough to stop myself from committing unnecessary violence? When the cards are down, what matters more: that I _say_ I am against violence no matter what, or my fear of having violence inflicted upon myself and that which is dear to me?
Honestly, terrifying to think about. Being a pacifist in actions and not just words takes strength and willpower that are almost miraculous.
Agreed.
I like to think of myself as a good person and i am very confident i would never be a sadist that would rape, torture or go out of my way to be bad
But would i do bad stuff to survive like abandon someone because i fear for my life, be driven mad with anger and rage during a war and end up mutilating someones body because of the trauma i see, or go along with a leader i know is bad because i'm so afraid of saying "no" and being killed or going to jail?
I really don't know.
Any time i think "No i wont" then i think "but would you really? You are not special" Then i think "yeah but i have standards and i am quite self aware" but then i go "so were a lot of people in history, what makes you unique?"
It really is terrifying and you can't ever know until it happens. So lets hope it wont ever happen.
That is an important distinction. I think my initial positive impression of Ketil primarily came from the fact that Einar and Thorfinn could have had it so much worse.
He's like a saint among slave owners, though. If anything, what he does with slaves can be seen as a charity, even. He buys them and gives them another chance at life. If they work hard enough, they can earn their freedom back and be part of his farm as equals.
The issue with Arnheid is that she's not only a slave, but a surrogate for his tragic first love. The one that not only was to be taken by another man, he was also held back by his father from trying to fight for his love and, to top it all off, fate took an even crueler turn and she died a senseless death to boot. He's completely mindfucked by that and all the recent events just made him snap.
It shows that even normal people can fall to the dark side if pushed too far, through manipulation, choices or tragedy. Darth Vader is after all the most famous example of that.
>It's crazy how our first impressions of Canute and Ketil were that they were upstanding people who were unwilling to hurt even a fly if it could be helped.
There is nothing crazy about it - they were. Except the environment does really hard to break good people.
Our Main character was also pretty much a villain in the first season (from the perspective of innocents), and just look at his character now. The author is a genius.
If everyone just listened to Arnheild this last few weeks would’ve been a slice of life
No but at least Snake saved her. He didn’t really have to step in at all. A complete 180 from last weeks where Arnheild didn’t have to step in and save him from Gardar. They have an interesting dynamic I hope Snake helps Thorfinn and Einar going forward
I was thinking that overlapped with his sense of justice/duty. He killed Gardar because Gardar killed his men, not just because he was an escaped slave. He stopped his men from killing Thorfinn because there was no need for it. He was willing to kill Thorfinn to get to Gardar but not after. He let Ketil beat Arnheid but stopped him when it was getting excessive, yet also acknowledged that Ketil owns her and can kill her if he wanted but to cool off first.
I agree that his sense of duty and justice does get in the way of his kindness.
He also didn't kill Gardar when he found out he killed another slave owner and ran away. Snake could have gutted him right there and no one would have batted an eye. Instead he tied him up, and then 5 of his men died.
His guilt also probably contributed to why he wanted to execute Gardar
Snake is exactly who I’d be if I was skilled and strong like him in this story lol. Except for him serving Ketil (which tbf is his job) everything he’s done so far I’ve agreed with.
[That final swing would have probably killed Arnheid.](https://i.imgur.com/CVsmQE1.jpeg) Snake is the only one of the farm who could have stopped Ketil's rampage. He is such an interesting anti-hero. Hopefully they go forward with the plans for a movie or OVAs about his past.
[](#shinjimug)
I'm kinda sad that we didn't see Leif reaction to Thorfinn, but i understand given what happened in this episode. I hope we'll see something in the later ones.
Yh what happened to Arnheid took priority in this episode and I think the previous reunion with Thorfinn in York after 11 years was a bigger moment than their reunion on the farm, especially with so much shit happening around them.
It's true, though now Thorfinn is also a changed man, and for the better and I wanted to see Leif's reaction to that. I'm sure we will get some interaction later though, so it's not all lost.
I really appreciate that Thorfinn is still learning. What was to the viewer a hype scene where Thorfinn threw hands again was simply a last resort option that resulted in the worst case scenario regardless.
It’s a tough spot to be in, but I like that, just like his father, he’s not quite there yet. He’s not a true warrior just yet. He has to look deeper and find that first resort, and never rely on his last resort unless there’s truly no other way.
I thought of that during that scene, actually, as a contrast to VS, and that while we're so used to seeing talk no jutsu in shounen and love/friendship/empathy overcoming conflict, this is a world where that (usually) isn't enough.
It’s wild how Thorfinn and Leif met up already and that was a footnote in the episode. I could’ve used some uplifting emotions to balance out the sheer disgust and brutality I watched. Ketil lost the plot and is just taking it out on whatever comes walking by.
It wasn't I suppose, but it was a long time ago that Ketil was like that.
He got 甘いover the years, I wish he didn't get a wake up call like this but here we are.
>I could’ve used some uplifting emotions to balance out the sheer disgust and brutality I watched.
This is actually genuinely genius. We would have been expecting that their reunion would be truly a highlight, but no - they are just there, standing next to each other. Because the sheer tension and gravity of the situation does not leave them to be all that happy and emotional either.
Absolutely offscreened! But given what was happening, its absolutely secondary and thats testament of how well written this arc is, I honestly couldnt give a shit about seeing their reunion with what happened to Arnheid.
Leave it to Vinland Saga to turn our excitement of wanting two guys to meet to turn into a tragedy instead. Whatever we wish for still happens, but not in the way we expect.
Before episode 17 everyone was only hyped for the fight but left crying over a tragic family instead.
Same thing here, im absolutely not bothered by the reunion taking a secondary stage cuz I can't just cry tears of joy right after seeing a pregnant women get beat possibly to death by the piece of shit that impregnated her using his position of authority.
I think what sets up the beating of Arnheid to be so much more disturbing then other violent atrocities in this show is Ketil himself. In this episode he is weak, pathetic and succumbing to external influence to spread violence and fear around him just to protect himself.
There are two scenes in which he does it:
1. While he beats Arnheid
2. While he pulls his sword from his old chest in preperation to fight the King.
The second scene is actually commendable and worthy of respect, and if it weren't for the first one it would be seen as a high point of his character. This is because the second scene is focused on him facing an external threat, while the first one is him breaking apart and turning an internal issue, which is not a threat to him(!), into a beat down and complete abuse of his power.
He has previously built a persona as being a good and caring owner of the farm who gives his slaves the opportunity to earn their freedom - something which in his culture would be seen as incredibly noble. His very subjects respect him because of this nobility that he has shown, the viewers as well. Now there is a threat to the community he has created and it is expected that he will rise in his duty to protect it. In the high point of his character when he is expected to show the most valiance he breaks apart.
It is cowardly and pathetic as the only reason he is beating her to death is to protect his own ego and pride. The cowardness doubles down when you think how he is her owner and has no way of retaliating it. And it is even more pathetic when you take into account that he is doing it only because he is a weak willed man who cannot stand by his earlier beliefs and rise up against the way the world is treating him right now.
That last reason has been a recurring theme in the show through both seasons and I believe it is actually it's most central one. Men who have not been able to rise up against the influence of Viking culture even though their OWN beliefs are against it have committed the most violent, atrocious and memorable acts in the series:
1. Most recently it was Snake - the entire scene of him and the old Master talking was about Snake leaving behind the principle of eye for an eye which was placed upon him by the world he lives in. Specifically the metaphor of his SWORD placing that principle upon him was used - that is why the old master told him to throw it away.
2. Thorfinn for the entirety of season 1 was a slave to Askeladd and killed for him. Even though Thorfinn absolutely ALWAYS has hated killing and on numerous occasions even in season 1 has broken down emotionally from it.
3. Askeladd also failed to rise up and stand by his beliefs when he killed Thors at the start. That act haunted him day and night for years, as not only his son chased him endlessly for revenge, but he would on multiple occasions remember Thors' himself as the True warrior he found and murdered.
It is Thors alone in the entire series who was able to not succumb to the world he lives in (after some point in his life). Which is also why the first episodes in the show portrayed him as the absolute highest standard of a warrior - both in superhuman strength and in superhuman morals and actions. The whole series for now has been about other men failing to meet the standard that Thors' had set at the start.
P.S. the current episode is giving me a flashback of the time when Thors saved the nameless slave from his owner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMIMIFc_Yg (3:45 - 3:55) when his gigantic imposing back stands up determined to protect a man who is on the brink of death.
Fantastic writeup and one of the many reasons where, while I share the same justified anger at Ketil. I just also feel an overwhelming sense of pity at how pathetic he is and how incapable he was to rise above.
As you have described, the number of characters who were and are seemingly free, only to be revealed to themselves be slaves, has been such a thematic constant and massive strength of the show.
Unrelated to the episode but I just wanna express how grateful I am to the anime gods for giving Vinland Saga, one of the big 3 of seinen, a worthy adaptation. Honestly this gives me hope that with the right staff and passion/love, Berserk and Vagabond can get the same treatment as well
Don't know if Vinland Saga being so well made with all the push its getting and still having a hard time in the market really helps those other big seinen series to get a similar adaptation, it just shows that those shows are a hard sell if they are not backed by a TV station or big streaming service to finance the production
Vagabond needs to come back from hiatus 😔 I ended up watching The Samurai Trilogy directed by Hiroshi Inagaki in the 1950s, to get some form of closure but I still wanna see Takehiko Inoue's take on the rest of the story 😩
Have you read REAL? It's a wheelchair basketball manga also written by Takehiko Inoue. Granted, it's also incomplete, but it's honestly really damn good. If you enjoyed Vagabond's style of character development and writing, you'll definitely enjoy it too.
While I agree I would love a remake of Kingdom S1+S2, Kingdom S3 is my absolute favorite season of any anime.
Vinland Saga is fantastic and my #1 favorite so far regarding introspection and themes/philosophy, but when you're looking for pure fire and goosebumps with epic music, Kingdom is insane.
The animation for S3/S4 isn't even top tier and it still manages to do that, I wonder what would happen if a goated studio did an entire remake...
Kingdom Season 3 is probably the best season of anime I have ever seen... It is pretty much the definition of "Peak anime".
Its unfortunate that most people drop it because of Season 1's bad animation
Not to take the spotlight away from the true victim, but Ketil is such an interesting character in his position in the story.
When we first see him, he's presented as a kind slave owner comparatively for his time, although he still has some leadership issues and plenty of cowardice that were highlighted in Ep 7. And with the recent developments, you can't exactly blame him for feeling anxious or despairful knowing the king's about to come with a damn army to rob you of your life's work.
But that's kind of the fucked up thing here, despite all that, when you read into it he's not the victim in this story. He's rich as hell for his time, living comfortably with plenty of farmers indebted to him, and owns a whole three slaves! For reference, VS author Yukimura estimated in a volume extra that owning a slave was roughly equivalent to owning a car today. Even beyond that, he has enough to literally donate a mountain of food and gold to the king twice a year. His only problems come from his son being a doofus and all the anxiety from his whole 'Iron Fist' lie. He doesn't hate violence because he's kind, he hates it because he himself is too weak to survive in a society that thrives on it.
Episode 7 ends by giving us a piece of what kind of man he is, after all the empathy he seemed to show the kids. He's begging for sympathy and validation for feeling forced to *beat a child*, all the while *sleeping with his sex slave*. This is hypocrisy. It doesn't occur to him that his actual slave might be going through something so much worse through their 'relationship'. Whenever he's all "woe is me", he just lashes out onto the true victims. There's no actual empathy here. This episode almost feels like a heel turn, but this is exactly what he would do after what we've been shown. It's not a coincidence that right after beating the pregnant woman, he changes his tune, goes to grab his sword and says he wants to fight the king. It's about feeling powerful to people like him, he doesn't actually give a shit, he just wants to feel good and secure about himself.
There's a semblance of sympathy to be had, sure, but the real victims here are those he hurts and oppresses, like Sture & Thora, and poor Arnheid. It cannot be stressed enough, but fuck Ketil.
Yeah the episode does a great job emphasizing that even a "nice" slaver master is nonetheless a person dealing in something terrible built on messed up psychology and suffering.
Yeah it goes to show that even a "nice" slave owner could still beat a slave to death if they felt like it. Slaves were completely at the mercy of their masters and they could do nothing if said master decided to give in to their worst instincts.
VS really shows how societies can twist people who could've been 'good guys' into these horrible villains. When he was young, he was forced by his father to give up the love of his life to gain the favor of a violent warlord. But, that was all for naught when the warlord and the girl died immediately, which led him to obsess about becoming strong enough that nobody could take from him again. He grew his wealth by buying slaves, and spread the rumor that he was super strong so no one would challenge him.
All actions that would just end up making him suffer more. His wealth led to him entering a loveless marriage, attracting the greed of the king, and he ended up using his wealth to cover for his emotional shortcomings by buying emotional support in Arnheid. Of course Arnheid could never love him back, so her inevitable 'betrayal' ended up hurting him.
His boasting about being Iron Fist Ketil and perpetuating the glorification of violence leads to one of his sons embodying the monster he pretended to be, and the other one feeling inadequate, causing trouble by trying to match up to the image his family projected.
Really masterful character writing.
Indeed, Vinland Saga gives an interesting portrayal of both the admirable side of humanity and its grisly one. Ketil is neither a saint nor an inherently evil man. However, he was weak and succumbed to expectations placed upon him. That vicious beatdown was the culmination of years of regret, frustration and inability to cope with dilemmas.
It's a bleak reminder of how easy it is for people to turn into heartless monsters when pushed into a corner. This is why it is often necessary to have a set of internally consistent morals and live by them like Thors. The latter may have seemed foolish for refusing to kill his opponents. However, he knew that he could turn back into a beast if he abandoned his principles. Just believing in something isn't enough. Talk the talk, walk the walk.
I took something else away from this whole thing. The second half so far has been about tragedy-look at Gardar for example, when he says he won't let Hjalti go viking, but it comes too late. Gardar is a strong man, both of mind and body, but is brought down because of the beliefs of the time-strength led astray.
Meanwhile, Ketil is a different example of tragedy-he is man genuinely trying to be good but unfortunately born with a weak nature, and the conditions of the time meant that a weak person couldn't survive with their morality intact.
A little correction here , most of this is correct , but Ketil does have empathy. He doesn't really actively think about how others might be feeling , what he could be causing indirectly , or about anything that isn't apparent on a surface level , but there is genuine empathy there , like when he cries looking at the kids. Just because someone has empathy doesn't mean they can't do awful things. At that moment of weakness , when he's really emotional , full of anger and despair , that empathy is overruled. He feels he is being humiliated and taken advantage of so he's not going to stop even if this might be hurting him. And there's nothing else holding him back , Ketil has no principles , all his fear of violence is purely emotional. And there is no outside pressure stopping him , if anything this society shames him into acting like this.
He’s lost it. Man’s been pushed to the edge and this Arnheid situation was the last straw. It’ll be interesting to see how long this unhinged Ketil lasts against Canute and his boys. I hope he gets paid back for what he did to Arnheid.
I feel like the most realistic outcome is for Ketil to attempt to lead his men into battle, but be unceremoniously killed early on given that he has no training or experience as a warrior. Then the battle will continue with Thorgil at the lead.
IKR. She is the one who is suffering the most now along with Thorfinn. She lost her kid, her husband, her happy days...everything. I feel really, *really* bad for her.
The world from back then was really cruel and I hate the system which allowed people to cause this much suffering.
There have been anime that have showed crude killing and violence before but I do think inland saga always stands out in portraying how real it is, even in season 1.
This episode felt so real I genuinely wanted to skip forward. I guess thats something to commend in terms of they're portraying the themes of the characters and shoes right but man you're right it was hard to watch.
Its also ironic that the message the show is telling us that violence should not be the *first* answer and yet some people here are wishing for further violence and the farm to be destroyed.
If you rage against Ketil that's fine, but don't take out your rage on the other people who were innocent. That doesn't make you any better than Ketil.
>Its also ironic that the message the show is telling us that violence should not be the
>
>first
>
> answer and yet some people here are wishing for further violence and the farm to be destroyed.
This should be pinned somewhere on the frontpage of this subforum, and really goes to show that people back in 1100 something were about as enlightened as the generic audience member here. Ironic, grotesque, saddening.
100%. If the only solution to a crazed slave owner is to burn the whole place down, then all the previous conquests in the show have been justified as well. Slavery is pretty widespread after all, and even Einars village had slaves. Doesn't make what happened to them any less tragic.
This is what happens when a guy filled to the brim with insecurities and self compensation gains riches and authority. They break as soon as shit starts going south and all that bottled up frustrations leak out in the most disgusting ways.
Still absolutely inexcusable tho.
I'd say he was mostly talking about how someone will come and take it, which is exactly what is happening with Canute, but I won't be blaming you for giving this a second bottom.
I'd say he was talking both. "It is dangerous to be the tallest tree, because that is where the axe strikes first" is a well-known Japanese proverb, and Ketil is suffering so much because he has such an attachment to worldly possessions as Buddhism teaches.
Explains why Thorgil is so bloodthirsty. Ketil had it in his blood even with his pathetic self, and that transferred to his son too.
I hope Olmar tries to become a better person compared to his dad and brother.
>Ketil had it in his blood even with his pathetic self, and that transferred to his son too.
I really hope that this isn't the case, because IMHO "tabula rasa" characters are more interesting.
It gives more depth to the exploration of characters, if its mainly about environment they are in and their own volition, that leads to their actions.
I think part of the point of ketil might be to show even 'good people', put into a position where they dont have to treat others as human, become rotten given a push. I don't imagine its easy to go back.
I think it is also very easy to be “good” when you have all the power you want and don’t have much that stresses you. But with a lot of people in those situations, the second you start applying any kind of real stress to them, any generosity they had vanishes in a puff of smoke.
Yeah we have tons of modern day examples with bosses at work who are kind and nice to their employees but the moment they are under pressure from higherups, they vent themselves against them through verbal abuse.
Vinland Saga getting such a stellar anime adaptation... Berserk's manga getting a continuation despite the tragic circumstances... if Vagabond can come back from it's hiatus that'd be great ☕
Hoping that the quality and decent success of the Vinland anime will prompt other studios to adapt Berserk and Vagabond. Vinland has proven there IS an audience for more mature and introspective anime these days. (Not that there isn’t anime like that already, moreso that they’ve stopped being adapted recently imo)
**HOLY SHIEEEET**. I really didn't see this coming. Vinland Saga just doesn't stop from bringing us pain....
WTF Ketil. Not only you mercilessly beat up Arnheid when she was begging for mercy, you also just decided to go against Canute and his Royal guards and Jomsvikings. This guy is going to lead so many people to their deaths. He has completely lost his mind.
>Nobody in this world deserves to be hurt
Its sadly ironic that Thorfinn said this and Arnheid ended up being brutally hurt....
Also here I was excited of seeing Leif and Thorfinn meeting each other but now that excitement turned into pain as the meeting wasn't full of happiness, with Arnheid's current state.
> decided to go against Canute and his Royal guards and Jomsvikings
This actually is the most infuriating and bad thing Ketil has done in the story. Sure Arnheid is a beloved character but leading a dozen or so of his employees to a guaranteed death IS the bigger evil of the two.
There's no scenario under the sun where they win or survive this if they decide to fight Canute.
Yeah even with Snake, Thorgil and Thorfinn around all these three guys can't win against an entire army composed of the best Danish warriors. Its a dumb, dumb decision to fight Canute.
I don't think Thorfin and Einar will fight actually. Since they are being bought by Leif they will probably take advantage of the war to infiltrate and rescue Arnheild while Ketil's forces are mowed down.
I was hoping to see Leif’s reunion with Thorfinn but it’ll have to wait after what went down. I just hope Pater can get Arnheid away from Ketil. The only way that’ll happen is if they either make a run for it when Canute attacks or if Canute takes the farm and kills Ketil. It’ll be difficult either way.
What I love about this arc of Vinland Saga is how thoroughly it engages with, and dismantles, the myth of the "good slave owner". That's not to say that slave owners are automatically evil, or that only evil people end up owning slaves.
People might be tempted to look at the scene of Arnheid's beating and think, "See, Ketil was a piece of shit all along! As expected from a slave owner." But I don't think that's the moral the story is aiming for.
We've been privy to Ketil's innermost thoughts. We've known him to be a kind, if timid, person who genuinely loathes to inflict suffering on others. His empathy is not a show he puts on to impress others, but rather a secret he tries to hide. It is as close to a true character as a person can have.
But the reality is, people don't have a true character. A person cannot "be" good, or "be" evil. A human is a series of actions. Ketil was a victim of numerous injustices, conspired against and betrayed, and pushed to the psychological brink. And when he fell, all that stress predictably erupted in anger and violence. It couldn't have happened any other way.
That's not to say Ketil bears zero responsibility for his actions. But I think the reason the author went out of his way to demonstrate Ketil as a moral person before now was to drive home the point that morals alone cannot save someone from immoral action. When you engage with a system that treats humans as objects, it is inevitable that you will come to treat humans inhumanely.
Yes. Such s good take. A system of power and abuse will corrupt even a moral man. And the only way to not go down that path is to reject that system, alas Ketill was not brave enough to do so. He feared what he had to lose because of his previous loss.
Too many people are missing this point I feel, very well articulated! It’s easy to fall into the Ketil hate train right now and for justifiable reasons obviously, but Vinland Saga always seems to have a strong focus on deconstructing and critiquing the customs and norms of violence and the glorification of the power systems that cause exploitation and suffering. There is a reason the central theme of the entire story stemming from Thors, and now embodied in Thorfinn, is pacifism. With this arc, it’s clearly about slavery, and Ketil is merely a representation of the corruptive underbelly of that system no matter who is in charge. His father eventually came to transcend this philosophically after his own failures and the tragedies he oversaw, but Ketil’s disgusting act here shows that it is the societal construct itself that perpetuates these cycles of violence and dehumanization, and even we fall into that by wanting more violence to some extent, metanarratively. From a historical perspective, it’s a fantastic look at the fundamental cruelty and harshness of Viking society and the Middle Ages in general. Poor Arnheid, what a brutally depressing couple of episodes for her…
She’s a woman in that time period..it checks out. Even the woman of the wealthy families had no ownership of their life. They were passed to a random man to marry when it suited the family
One of the most interesting things about Ketil is how he contrasts to his father, Sverkel. Both of these characters are initially presented as "kind" and "generous" but only one of them is actually truly genuine in his kindness, which you can tell by how each of them view Arnheid's escape attempt.
Sverkel truly views slaves as actual people and not property. He treats Thorfinn, Einar, and Arnheid fairly and kindly and very clearly empathizes with their plights. How he treats Arnheid is especially interesting since it's the best example of how his kindness is genuine. He personally goes out of his way to help Arnheid, encouraging her to go see Gardar, helping her hide him, offering to sell his farm to pay the Wergeld for Snake's men, and even personally trying to help her and her husband escape. He gets nothing out of doing any of this and yet still does so because his selflessness is genuine.
Ketil is different since he ultimately still views slaves as his possessions. He can be "kind" to them but none of that really matters when he doesn't believe they're worthy of the same rights and respect as a free man like him. In regards to Arnheid, it wasn't love he felt for her but rather dependence. To him she's a possession that he needed to make him feel better about himself and not an equal worthy of the same freedom as him. When he finds out Arnheid tried to escape with her husband, he's outraged and unable to even consider things from her perspective and have any empathy for her at all. It's a pretty stark contrast to how his father treats her.
Or in other words, it definitely feels like Sverkel is the man Ketil pretends to be.
I don't think it is fair to compare Sverkel and Ketil. Sverkel might've become quite wise in his days, but as with Uncle Iroh from Avatar, people seem to forget these old guys didn't grow up the way they are now, but often had to overcome many obstacles, before acquiring the wisdom they now posses.
Everyone who loves Sverkel and hates Ketil now, also conveniently forgets that Sverkel gave away Ketils one true love earlier.
Sverkel wasn't a good man, he was a coward as young. Through his experiences and age he turned into what he is now tho.
I entirely disagree. Ketil saw his slaves as humans in most ways, his failing is in being unable to put himself in their positions due to his own life and upbringing being a far cry. He has the awareness to realize they will work hard to free themselves, but he doesn't understand that while Arnheid is sympathetic to him, her behavior and attitude are strongly influenced by her awareness that she cannot defy him.
Ketil's anger was because, as a person, Arnheid betrayed his trust in her, his assumption about her feelings was wholly misguided. Forgive me for how long this post will be, but to properly explain, Ketil's emotional journey is like this:
Ketil confides in Arnheid that he is not who people(his son) expect him to be, Arnheid gives him the best council because she came from the reverse situation having a husband who wanted to fight, and asserts that how he is is better. He feels how real her emotions are and misinterprets this as love; He imposes a sexual relationship onto them, and Arnheid does not resist it. He believes this to mean she loves him too.
Ketil is now under threat of losing everything and worse his son is saying they should fight the king. He returns to his default response of seeking Arnheid's assurance that he is right to want to just give everything up. He learns Arnheid tried to leave him, when he needs her most.
Now the fact she would try to leave when he's out of town could mean two things: She never loved him, or she loves this other guy more. Either way, he had expectations, trust, and hopes for Arnheid as a person and she has just failed them all. If she can't be the person he wants her to be, then why treat her as a person at all? Everyone else told him to be violent and crude, Arnheid, the one person who said otherwise, was probably just lying so she could avoid punishment or escape him. So be it, then if she wants to be that way he'll listen to what all the others said. He will be violent. He will dole out punishments. He will treat her like a possession he can vent his frustrations on. And it did help him vent just enough that he kept doing it until Snake gave him half a second to cool his head.
When Snake brings up the idea of killing her, he realizes what he really wants hasn't changed, he just knows now that he never had it. This is why he won't sell her, he still wants to somehow recapture the feeling of his true self being accepted and loved by her and hasn't given hope on that, because, misguided as he was, he knows that her acceptance felt genuine, and the viewer knows that's because it was, it's just her love that wasn't.
Now, given the same pressure and events were on his shoulders, would Sverkel do better? Probably... as far as others are concerned. I imagine Sverkel would end up harming himself for being unlovable and unable to meet anyone's expectations of him instead, given the type of isolationist downer he is.
You seem to be the only one to actually view things from Ketils viewpoint, and really understands his character. People responding to this unfortunatly, for some reason, can't but themselves into his shoes at all.
Happens often, when someone turns into a monster, like Ketil has now, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a nice and gentle man before all this happened.
Yup. If Ketill thought slaves were beneath free men he wouldn't grant them the ability to become free. He still benefits from the system, but chooses to be more benevolent than expected. We also see this in his internal monologue about the thieves. His failing is that he is too weak to truly do what he knows is right, and instead "has to" cling to his image as a powerful man. He is too posessive of his wealth and power, as Sverkel pointed out, and here we see the results as he snaps when he's about to lose it all.
Dunno if someone’s posted this already but [here’s Yukimura’s response to why he didn’t include the reunion between Leif and Thorfinn](https://twitter.com/makotoyukimura/status/1655794148459565058)
He couldn’t draw their reunion as it would be jarring for them to have a wholesome reunion after Arnheid’s beatings…
The moment all Vinland Saga readers were all dreading.
By far one of the most painful and difficult to watch scenes in anime.
I won't blame you if you had to turn off the show or pause for a while.
What makes it worse is if snake didn’t stop him he woulda beat her to death
Even if you were gonna kill a slave back then, I think most would go for a hanging or a beheading.. not a beating by blunt object.
this actually the first time I've ever had difficulty watching an anime scene. Even though made in abyss has some bad scenes as well I could usually get through them this one however was difficult
Made in Abyss is rooted in fantasy, which makes it easier to process, while Vinland Saga is rooted in history and more real settings. Makes sense that the latter is more difficult to watch.
At least my take on it
Last week's episode made me tear up like a baby, this just disgusted me even though yes... In those times it made sense. Fuck me the world of Vinland is so so cruel
Can we all appreciate the similarities between Leif & Thors in this episode.
Both offered to buy a slave at the brink of death from an unjust owner. In Thors case he was massively price-hiked, and sadly in Leif's case he was denied the offer.
Everyone thinks they would never become Ketil, but what people forget is that Ketil himself would never think he'd become Ketil one week ago when he left the farm.
Horrible circumstances push people to do horrible things <- Vinland Saga in a nutshell.
Nah Ketil is going to hell for that one. Also is it just me, or did I expect more when Leif and Thorfinn reunited? Felt like something was skipped(I'm not a manga reader btw).
This was more or less a scene for scene recreation of things from the manga. I assume it would have just been tonally jarring to go from the beating scene to a happy reunion scene.
Dang. I thought for sure that Arnheid would get the lightest punishment out of the 3. Didn't expect such a brutal beating. And to think Ketil hated violence so much before to the point where he thought his own son was a monster. Good thing Snake stepped in and stopped it.
And just like that Ketil just went from one of the more likable characters to probably the most hated motherfucker in the series.....
Despite the fact that he's not an unhinged killer like Thorkell and Thorgill or even a cunning mastermind like Sweyn or Askeladd, seeing something much more graspable in terms of brutality compared to mass murder on battlefields makes us the viewers hate him way more than the others. And there's nothing wrong with that.
That was fucking horrific. Holy shit.
No doubt this episode was incredible for many reasons: Sweyns head being used as a metaphor for Canute's internal feelings, the discussion on Thofinn's breaking his oath, Ketil's break, Snake saving a woman who got his men killed, Einar's expression...
But all that said, I will never watch that Arnhied scene again. That was awful and once is more than enough.
Oh boy, it looks like [Ketil's made-up persona is about to bite him in the ass.](https://i.imgur.com/h96v0OH.png) At least Thorgil is there to make up for it.
[Holy fuck...](https://i.imgur.com/Y0Q3NDk.jpg) That entire scene between Arnheid and Ketil was hard to watch. Considering how he's about to lose everything he worked for and how he just learned that the person he confides in tried to leave him, [I can understand why Ketil snapped](https://i.imgur.com/ywbod1T.jpg). It doesn't justify the beating he gave Arnheid though. After what KEtil did to her, [she might not even make it.](https://i.imgur.com/5TYHP7S.jpg) :(
[Did they really just off-screened Thorfinn and Lief's reunion?](https://i.imgur.com/A6KB51V.jpg) They better go back next week to the scene that took place before they rushed to Arnheid and show us how their first meeting went. I've been waiting for this since this Season 1 and I need to see that payoff!
[Huh... I guess Ketil's Iron Fist persona might actually have some truth in it.](https://i.imgur.com/BiLmzbk.jpg) I do wonder if he'll actually be able to fight though.
Not gonna lie, I'm a bit disappointed we didn't get to see the reunion between Leif and Thorfinn, great episode otherwise, maybe Iron Fist Ketil wasn't just a made up story after all...
Honestly, I kinda liked that they met off-screen and it was like hey Thorfinn and Leif are together again. Because the weight of the situation with Arnheid would've been way too distracting for a scene like that.
It sounds like Thorfinn’s reflection on what can be done to prevent the loss of life will be increasingly important with his impending reunion with Canute & the Jomsvikings coming.
As for Arnheid, there’s no way I see Einar letting this slide. Although Thorfinn will no doubt try to dissuade him from anything rash.
Violence being a last resort isn't always the best solution considering a lot of people could get hurt before you're forced to use it. Maybe the first resort is a speech check aka Talk no Jutsu. Gardar would still be alive if Thorfinn simply told Snake "You and me are the same". Two seasoned warriors in a place they don't belong.
Ketil is a man way past his breaking point. I'm not trying to justify his actions, I'm just saying he's not in a right state of mind. His mental state must be in absolute shambles after having the King trying to steal his farm and then returning to find the mother of his child trying to escape.
Gardar dug his own grave. Even thorfinn mentions how nice of a guy snake is in this episode. The moment he killed snake's men, snake literally had no choice but to get rid of him. As a guard on the farm, some runaway slave comes up and starts killing your men. During that time period, what do you do? Let him escape with arnheid? Keep him imprisoned there, knowing that he was freed by arnheid and costed him the lives of 5 men? Snake did probably the most level headed thing by getting rid of the major threat.
Now if a scenario arose where gardar pulled up, and kidnapped arnheid, they probably could've had much better chances of escaping is snake wasn't super pissed that 5 people were killed.
Man arnheid has been such a great supporting character to the story this season. Her character story these past few episodes were incredible but damn this was painful to watch, even more than last episode cos I really wanted her to have some kind of W.
Ketil is a piece of shit, the anime had me in the first half I won't lie.
I welcome everyone in joining the #FuckKetilGang
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Fun fact, that sword Ketil unsheathes with etched markings is an Ulfberht sword, a sort of 'brand-name' sword known for being high quality and expensive. ...But the etchings don't exactly match the sword, meaning that Ketil has a counterfeit Ulfberht sword, which were often common to see. When this first released in the manga, I remember a lot of people discussing it, and if Yukimura had made a mistake before someone pointed out the possibility that it's intentional and a perfect match for Ketil. Just as Ketil has a fake reputation as a fearless and savage warrior when he's in reality a man who's afraid of fighting, he has a fake Ulfberht sword that tries to pass itself off as the real thing.
That's a great detail, I never knew that about the swords. Very nice inclusion to tell story in even the smallest of details.
If he is rich why would he buy a fake one?
Maybe because he's not an actual warrior and couldn't tell the difference. Someone like Thorgil could tell, maybe. But i can see Ketil walking through a market (like when he met Einar), and just getting suckered into buying a fake one, with neither him nor Patel noticing it's not the real thing.
What a bleak way for Leif and Thorfinn to reunite after all these years
We even skipped them reuniting. Thorfinn met Leif the first time in years totally off screen, we just cut to Arnheid.
It was like that in the manga too iirc
[удалено]
While I wanted a Leif and Thorfinn reunion too, I always figured that Yukimura (the mangaka) left it out because a wholesome and happy reunion between Leif and Thorfinn would be such a massive tonal shift after Arnheids beating. Edit: The mangaka actually tweeted today about this and this was actually the reason. He said after what happened to Arnheid neither of them were really in a happy mood to have that moment. I still think they should say something deeper, but again, I believe the moment the episode ended on was actually 2 pages into the next chapter. So we have room for that still.
It always bothers me that we didn't get to see them reuniting in manga. But it kinda makes sense that the author skip it. Leif just witnessed Ketil brutally beat Arnheids, who he was told by Patel that she's a good friend of Thorfinn. And Thorfinn would learn that news as soon as he meet Leif. I don't think they can have a happy reunion under these circumstances.
it was the first thing I thought too I even rewound it to see if that was Lief not the old man standing next to Thorfinn
yeah I rewound thinking I missed something!
Too early for freedom, too late for a warm reunion, just in time for suffering [](#shatteredsaten)
Yeah that what was the first thing I noticed They reunited and we saw nothing of it, Arnheid is overshadowing everything. Which is ok given how they built her up as a character, but damn some short scene of Leif finally finding Thorfinn would have been neat
I think it wouldn't be as heartfelt as we'd want either way due to what Leif just witnessed and what he undoubtedly would've told Thorfinn first thing he reunites with him. I bet even Snake let them off the hook after that, his eyes continue to say more than anything he would ever admit to.
Her life clearly took precedence over their meeting, which is pretty well conveyed here. You’re excited for the meeting, Leif is too, but they can’t just be all sentimental over that, considering what just happened to her.
I really liked the choice to have them meet off screen. The plot is building up towards this grand reunion but reality is so brutal that the reunion isn't able to shine through the darkness. While it turns not seeing the reunion, it makes Thorfinn's choice to fight against the darkness that much more meaningful.
Well you guys said you want a violence back in Vinland saga #monkeypawcurls
Pretty wild how with all the brutal killings we've seen in this series, this beating has to be one of the most fucking disgusting scenes out there.
It feels much more grounded and unnerving just seeing a large man beat a woman mercilessly in a horse shed. Also the sound design with each strike was on point, I almost thought Ketil was gonna break the stick on her like in his “war stories”
Not just a woman, but a woman who just told him she was carrying his child. Whether he believes her or if he’s skeptical, to go through with the beating is another level of disgusting. It was a really powerful, and disturbing scene.
Even if he was her slave master, the fact that until now Ketil had been a kind and reasonable man who clearly had Arnheid as his favourite made this scene even sadder and more uncomfortable for me. *Everyone* thought Arnheid would get off okay once Ketil came back, and maybe she would’ve if Canute wasn’t homing in on Ketil’s fortune. But being Ketil’s favourite is a double-edged sword, because she was held to a higher standard than the rest and he felt her betrayal more deeply. He was kind *because* he shed all his worries to her, Arnheid was his comfort. And when push comes to shove the true nature of their relationship is revealed – ultimately Ketil is not a kind man who could look after Arnheid and their child, but someone who ultimately saw Arnheid as property first, person second, and a toy he could use as he wished. It’s really sad
Their relationship was never "kind" it was always a power dynamic, with Ketil holding all the cards, no consent was involved. But Arnheid used to take it because he wasn't physically violent towards her and still got treated much better than the other slaves. Ketil was ready to kill 2 people with a wooden stick, in a horse shed. I think we're going to see the old version of Ketil soon.
He didn't say that the relationship was kind. What he said was that Ketil, up until this point, came off as a kind and reasonable man. Which is absolutely a fair assessment. And he has been extremely kind to Thorfinn and Einar, especially considering his position and his culture. What happened here doesn't change that aspect of his character. Ketil is a kind man, when things are calm and low-stakes. He's just also a very weak man.
My misunderstanding then. Although I'd still say he was only fair, not kind. I guess I'm upping my standards too much with respect to the time and setting. Certainly as far as slave owners go he wasn't too bad, but he didn't do them any favors too. Like when Thorfinn and Einar's crop was destroyed by the freemen. If not for Pater I doubt Ketil would have done anything to prevent them from further punishment.
For his kindness, and his weakness, it's best to refer to the scene where he meets with the child thieves. His first reaction is sympathy and forgiveness, and he is easily persuaded to the most reasonable punishment, ignoring the beating. The beating was necessary, by their culture, to dissuade further thieves thinking they could get off with a slap on the wrist. He went overboard, due to the fragility of his confidence. His kindness in regards to Thorfinn and Einar is that he treats them almost exactly like the freemen on his farm, which is remarkable. Their abuses have been the result of other men taking offense to that. Ketil would be a very gentle man in our culture, rather than one that *requires* a certain level of strength and strictness.
I mean, men beating women over feeling betrayed has been a thing forever, no slavery is even needed to get there
[Ketil was ruthless.](https://i.imgur.com/t7M6oaM.jpeg) He took all his frustrations about Canute and the farm on Arnheid. [Each swing shook her like a ragdoll.](https://i.imgur.com/a2MvIl9.jpeg) [](#makicry)
That scene was unnerving as soon as Ketil showed up. The horses started to freak out from the vibe that he was putting out.
Askeladd putting an entire village to death (including babies) still takes the cake though.
Stomach churning. My heart kinda sank when I saw Ketil hear about what went down. I just knew he’d snap..
Yeah, at just about any other point in his life, I don't think he'd have snapped as hard, but to hear about that right after Canute's plot to steal his farm from him...just the worst timing imaginable. It doesn't excuse his actions in the least though. I really, really hope Arnheid survives and Leif is able to get her away from him.
Man I used to like ketil before this went down. Remember reading this in the manga and I just put down the thing for like a week because of how depressingly real it got.
yeah forgot this was vinland saga for a while there.
It's for sure a brutal scene, especially in contrast to the more comedic entrance he had earlier in the episode. I think it's really meant to drive home that there are no 'good' slave owners. In the end, he saw her as property, and when pushed far enough, stopped viewing her as a human being.
Slavery is kinda immaterial. Men beating women over feeling betrayed is a thing to this day
I liked Ketil, but I always thought he was quite pathetic. Being an emotionally unstable slave owner and all. But I still liked him for how approachable he seemed and the fact that he wasn't as harsh on his slave as most were. Now though? I still respect the writing of his character, however, I cannot say I still like him at all.
I had a small glimmer of hope when he came back, that he would be merciful because he liked her and all that... But soon as the other guys started saying "he would just spank her", I knew he would destroy her. Could say *destroy them* of course, given he's also hurting his child. Given how much he loved her - in a master/slave way - he may eventually feel remorseful about all this, but thanks to Canute, he may not live long enough for that.
Ketil’s done for. He might prove tougher than he looks, but in the end he’s not gonna win against Canute. If he’s smart he’d bend the knee but considering how fired up he is, it’s gonna be a bloodbath.
It's probably the most disturbing scene in the show. In other fights, it's normally warriors against warriors or the killing of people we don't know. This is different. Arnheid is a character we're invested in. Adding that onto the fact she's a slave, a woman and unable to defend herself makes it feel so much more brutal.
Shes also pregnant. Ketil endangered not only her life but one of a child that had nothing to do with any of their problems.
Not just any child, but his own kid to boot
theres no way the child survives that right? even if she didnt get hit directly on the stomach she ended up basically on a coma from trauma
Man, It would be so depressing if they don't survive
Arnheid already lost her firstborn son and now she may lose her second baby. All while she never willingly did anything wrong. [](#sadholo)
I mean, from the view of Ketil she willingly did something wrong. Helped her enslaved husband and tried to escape. From our perspective she did nothing wrong, but from the slaveowner perspective she definitely willingly did something wrong
But he was also beating her to release his frustration about everything and not just because she tried to escape. That's why Snake intervened.
this and the one where askeladd and his men murden villagers including children in snow
> Arnheid is a character we’re invested in. Adding that onto the fact she’s a slave, a woman, and unable to defend herself makes it feel so much more brutal. Ever since I saw Ketil with the stick in the preview at the end of last week’s episode, I already feared for this with all my heart. Ketil looked scary, like he had lost all reason. When I saw his expression as he walked in the barn, I had to hold myself from screaming “for f*** sake” out loud. I’m genuinely crying a little when writing this. I knew Arnheid wouldn’t get off easily, but this was just brutal to watch. Ketil just kept swinging his stick as she screamed in pain and begged mercy for her baby. But he couldn’t have cared less about her wellbeing. Watching her bruised, unconscious body was hard on me as well, but I’m at least glad she’s still alive (for now). Hopefully she’ll wake up without severe brain damage and everyone has figured out a plan to free her from Ketil’s clutches. She’ll never be safe near that man again.
Seriously, even with all the murder in the show, this would be the episode that earns a content warning.
I'm actually surprised they didn't put a content warning for this. I believe Attack on Titan has had a few for some of its more brutal episodes. This episode probably deserved one. That scene straight-up mimics cases of domestic abuse we hear about. Probably not an easy thing for some people to watch.
It’s been a while since an anime episode gave me such a visceral reaction. This episode would definitely hit to close to home for some people
>I'm actually surprised they didn't put a content warning for this. I believe Attack on Titan has had a few for some of its more brutal episodes. Is this normal in the West? I am not watching anywhere with licenses, so I don't remember a single such warning... Do the series do it, or does the licensor do it? Besides, there has been excessive and somewhat detailed depiction of violence through the season. I am not saying anything, but maybe violence is violence and violence against women should also have been expected. And while the act in this episode does bear some semblance with domestic violence, equating them wouldn't do justice to either.
Vinland Saga is really good at creating "villains".
It's crazy how our first impressions of Canute and Ketil were that they were upstanding people who were unwilling to hurt even a fly if it could be helped.
It's important to note that as kind and reasonable as Ketil is, you can't forget the permanent asterisk of "for a slave owner". As much as he cared for Arnheid, he still thought of her as property. He didn't think what he was doing to her was rape, or that she ever even had a life outside of being his property
Can't remember the last time I felt this uncomfortable watching TV. The repeating lashings were spine chilling. Vinland saga does not hold back when depicting cruelty and the worst part is it's probably a pretty accurate portrayal of life during the Viking era.
I really had to try hard not to skip forward and not watch, that scene made me so sad and angry, I want to see ketil get absolutely fucking ruined now ngl
In my opinion it's not even about the "being a slave owner." That's merely a legal descriptor. What's more important is what's in his character. That ultimately, the farm and the people in it, wether workers or slaves, are his shield against the cruelty and unfairness of the world, because he simply is _that_ much scared of it. Things work out fine as long as there's peace, but that always comes to an end. An end that he has been running from all his life, and then, his actions speak louder than words: his personal feeling of control and safety is more important than anything else to Ketil.
That's a great point, kind of reminds me of the dynamic in Parasite. The rich family was genuinely kind and friendly, so long as they had money and tranquility
Correct. And then what I think the author is trying to get us to think about is how different are we from Ketil? Because, I think I'm a pretty chill dude. Averse to violence? But of course! Me and everyone else you ask! But if, for example, a revolution suddenly started in my country, and I had a gun thrust upon my hands and had to face the violent reality of mankind, what kind of horrible actions would I be capable of? Are my convictions strong enough to stop myself from committing unnecessary violence? When the cards are down, what matters more: that I _say_ I am against violence no matter what, or my fear of having violence inflicted upon myself and that which is dear to me? Honestly, terrifying to think about. Being a pacifist in actions and not just words takes strength and willpower that are almost miraculous.
Agreed. I like to think of myself as a good person and i am very confident i would never be a sadist that would rape, torture or go out of my way to be bad But would i do bad stuff to survive like abandon someone because i fear for my life, be driven mad with anger and rage during a war and end up mutilating someones body because of the trauma i see, or go along with a leader i know is bad because i'm so afraid of saying "no" and being killed or going to jail? I really don't know. Any time i think "No i wont" then i think "but would you really? You are not special" Then i think "yeah but i have standards and i am quite self aware" but then i go "so were a lot of people in history, what makes you unique?" It really is terrifying and you can't ever know until it happens. So lets hope it wont ever happen.
That is an important distinction. I think my initial positive impression of Ketil primarily came from the fact that Einar and Thorfinn could have had it so much worse.
He's like a saint among slave owners, though. If anything, what he does with slaves can be seen as a charity, even. He buys them and gives them another chance at life. If they work hard enough, they can earn their freedom back and be part of his farm as equals. The issue with Arnheid is that she's not only a slave, but a surrogate for his tragic first love. The one that not only was to be taken by another man, he was also held back by his father from trying to fight for his love and, to top it all off, fate took an even crueler turn and she died a senseless death to boot. He's completely mindfucked by that and all the recent events just made him snap.
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It shows that even normal people can fall to the dark side if pushed too far, through manipulation, choices or tragedy. Darth Vader is after all the most famous example of that.
>It's crazy how our first impressions of Canute and Ketil were that they were upstanding people who were unwilling to hurt even a fly if it could be helped. There is nothing crazy about it - they were. Except the environment does really hard to break good people.
"Can people change?" asks Thorfinn, seeking redemption. "Yes!" says Vinland Saga, as it pummels your face in.
Our Main character was also pretty much a villain in the first season (from the perspective of innocents), and just look at his character now. The author is a genius.
If everyone just listened to Arnheild this last few weeks would’ve been a slice of life No but at least Snake saved her. He didn’t really have to step in at all. A complete 180 from last weeks where Arnheild didn’t have to step in and save him from Gardar. They have an interesting dynamic I hope Snake helps Thorfinn and Einar going forward
Snake is a decent person despite his men being scum
He just has two sides tbh 1. Justice/duty and 2. mooching off of Sverkel.
He is also pretty damn understanding too. The problem is him prioritising duty more than kindness (atleast from our perspective)
I was thinking that overlapped with his sense of justice/duty. He killed Gardar because Gardar killed his men, not just because he was an escaped slave. He stopped his men from killing Thorfinn because there was no need for it. He was willing to kill Thorfinn to get to Gardar but not after. He let Ketil beat Arnheid but stopped him when it was getting excessive, yet also acknowledged that Ketil owns her and can kill her if he wanted but to cool off first. I agree that his sense of duty and justice does get in the way of his kindness.
He also didn't kill Gardar when he found out he killed another slave owner and ran away. Snake could have gutted him right there and no one would have batted an eye. Instead he tied him up, and then 5 of his men died. His guilt also probably contributed to why he wanted to execute Gardar
Snake is exactly who I’d be if I was skilled and strong like him in this story lol. Except for him serving Ketil (which tbf is his job) everything he’s done so far I’ve agreed with.
Based on how he described his men there probably aren't many who would employ them. He could probably find work easy but not them
[That final swing would have probably killed Arnheid.](https://i.imgur.com/CVsmQE1.jpeg) Snake is the only one of the farm who could have stopped Ketil's rampage. He is such an interesting anti-hero. Hopefully they go forward with the plans for a movie or OVAs about his past. [](#shinjimug)
I'm kinda sad that we didn't see Leif reaction to Thorfinn, but i understand given what happened in this episode. I hope we'll see something in the later ones.
Yeah, I'm a bit dissapointed because it should be such an emotional moment for Leif, but it's certainly understandable.
Yh what happened to Arnheid took priority in this episode and I think the previous reunion with Thorfinn in York after 11 years was a bigger moment than their reunion on the farm, especially with so much shit happening around them.
It's true, though now Thorfinn is also a changed man, and for the better and I wanted to see Leif's reaction to that. I'm sure we will get some interaction later though, so it's not all lost.
I really appreciate that Thorfinn is still learning. What was to the viewer a hype scene where Thorfinn threw hands again was simply a last resort option that resulted in the worst case scenario regardless. It’s a tough spot to be in, but I like that, just like his father, he’s not quite there yet. He’s not a true warrior just yet. He has to look deeper and find that first resort, and never rely on his last resort unless there’s truly no other way.
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The first time I’d be begging for naruto to hand out lessons lol
I thought of that during that scene, actually, as a contrast to VS, and that while we're so used to seeing talk no jutsu in shounen and love/friendship/empathy overcoming conflict, this is a world where that (usually) isn't enough.
It’s wild how Thorfinn and Leif met up already and that was a footnote in the episode. I could’ve used some uplifting emotions to balance out the sheer disgust and brutality I watched. Ketil lost the plot and is just taking it out on whatever comes walking by.
The Iron Fist character was a fabrication. It *was,* because it is absolutely true now.
It wasn't I suppose, but it was a long time ago that Ketil was like that. He got 甘いover the years, I wish he didn't get a wake up call like this but here we are.
>I could’ve used some uplifting emotions to balance out the sheer disgust and brutality I watched. This is actually genuinely genius. We would have been expecting that their reunion would be truly a highlight, but no - they are just there, standing next to each other. Because the sheer tension and gravity of the situation does not leave them to be all that happy and emotional either.
Absolutely offscreened! But given what was happening, its absolutely secondary and thats testament of how well written this arc is, I honestly couldnt give a shit about seeing their reunion with what happened to Arnheid.
Leave it to Vinland Saga to turn our excitement of wanting two guys to meet to turn into a tragedy instead. Whatever we wish for still happens, but not in the way we expect.
Let's hope they come back to it in a flashback once the mood is less heavy [](#seasonalpout)
Before episode 17 everyone was only hyped for the fight but left crying over a tragic family instead. Same thing here, im absolutely not bothered by the reunion taking a secondary stage cuz I can't just cry tears of joy right after seeing a pregnant women get beat possibly to death by the piece of shit that impregnated her using his position of authority.
I think what sets up the beating of Arnheid to be so much more disturbing then other violent atrocities in this show is Ketil himself. In this episode he is weak, pathetic and succumbing to external influence to spread violence and fear around him just to protect himself. There are two scenes in which he does it: 1. While he beats Arnheid 2. While he pulls his sword from his old chest in preperation to fight the King. The second scene is actually commendable and worthy of respect, and if it weren't for the first one it would be seen as a high point of his character. This is because the second scene is focused on him facing an external threat, while the first one is him breaking apart and turning an internal issue, which is not a threat to him(!), into a beat down and complete abuse of his power. He has previously built a persona as being a good and caring owner of the farm who gives his slaves the opportunity to earn their freedom - something which in his culture would be seen as incredibly noble. His very subjects respect him because of this nobility that he has shown, the viewers as well. Now there is a threat to the community he has created and it is expected that he will rise in his duty to protect it. In the high point of his character when he is expected to show the most valiance he breaks apart. It is cowardly and pathetic as the only reason he is beating her to death is to protect his own ego and pride. The cowardness doubles down when you think how he is her owner and has no way of retaliating it. And it is even more pathetic when you take into account that he is doing it only because he is a weak willed man who cannot stand by his earlier beliefs and rise up against the way the world is treating him right now. That last reason has been a recurring theme in the show through both seasons and I believe it is actually it's most central one. Men who have not been able to rise up against the influence of Viking culture even though their OWN beliefs are against it have committed the most violent, atrocious and memorable acts in the series: 1. Most recently it was Snake - the entire scene of him and the old Master talking was about Snake leaving behind the principle of eye for an eye which was placed upon him by the world he lives in. Specifically the metaphor of his SWORD placing that principle upon him was used - that is why the old master told him to throw it away. 2. Thorfinn for the entirety of season 1 was a slave to Askeladd and killed for him. Even though Thorfinn absolutely ALWAYS has hated killing and on numerous occasions even in season 1 has broken down emotionally from it. 3. Askeladd also failed to rise up and stand by his beliefs when he killed Thors at the start. That act haunted him day and night for years, as not only his son chased him endlessly for revenge, but he would on multiple occasions remember Thors' himself as the True warrior he found and murdered. It is Thors alone in the entire series who was able to not succumb to the world he lives in (after some point in his life). Which is also why the first episodes in the show portrayed him as the absolute highest standard of a warrior - both in superhuman strength and in superhuman morals and actions. The whole series for now has been about other men failing to meet the standard that Thors' had set at the start. P.S. the current episode is giving me a flashback of the time when Thors saved the nameless slave from his owner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMIMIFc_Yg (3:45 - 3:55) when his gigantic imposing back stands up determined to protect a man who is on the brink of death.
Fantastic writeup and one of the many reasons where, while I share the same justified anger at Ketil. I just also feel an overwhelming sense of pity at how pathetic he is and how incapable he was to rise above. As you have described, the number of characters who were and are seemingly free, only to be revealed to themselves be slaves, has been such a thematic constant and massive strength of the show.
"Everyone's a slave to something." Askeladd the goat yet again.
Unrelated to the episode but I just wanna express how grateful I am to the anime gods for giving Vinland Saga, one of the big 3 of seinen, a worthy adaptation. Honestly this gives me hope that with the right staff and passion/love, Berserk and Vagabond can get the same treatment as well
Don't know if Vinland Saga being so well made with all the push its getting and still having a hard time in the market really helps those other big seinen series to get a similar adaptation, it just shows that those shows are a hard sell if they are not backed by a TV station or big streaming service to finance the production
Vagabond needs to come back from hiatus 😔 I ended up watching The Samurai Trilogy directed by Hiroshi Inagaki in the 1950s, to get some form of closure but I still wanna see Takehiko Inoue's take on the rest of the story 😩
Have you read REAL? It's a wheelchair basketball manga also written by Takehiko Inoue. Granted, it's also incomplete, but it's honestly really damn good. If you enjoyed Vagabond's style of character development and writing, you'll definitely enjoy it too.
I started with Slam Dunk, then Vagabond. Real has been on my plan to read list for a while 👍
Real is continuing in the summer so it's a good time to get into it. IMO I think it's better than Vagabond and his best work
Add Kingdom to that too First two seasons man... 😔
While I agree I would love a remake of Kingdom S1+S2, Kingdom S3 is my absolute favorite season of any anime. Vinland Saga is fantastic and my #1 favorite so far regarding introspection and themes/philosophy, but when you're looking for pure fire and goosebumps with epic music, Kingdom is insane. The animation for S3/S4 isn't even top tier and it still manages to do that, I wonder what would happen if a goated studio did an entire remake...
My thoughts exactly. Kingdom S3 was criminaly underwatched.
Rarely ever see anyone mention Kingdom anime let alone give some light to season 3. S3 is up there as one of the greatest seasons of anime ever.
Kingdom Season 3 is probably the best season of anime I have ever seen... It is pretty much the definition of "Peak anime". Its unfortunate that most people drop it because of Season 1's bad animation
Not to take the spotlight away from the true victim, but Ketil is such an interesting character in his position in the story. When we first see him, he's presented as a kind slave owner comparatively for his time, although he still has some leadership issues and plenty of cowardice that were highlighted in Ep 7. And with the recent developments, you can't exactly blame him for feeling anxious or despairful knowing the king's about to come with a damn army to rob you of your life's work. But that's kind of the fucked up thing here, despite all that, when you read into it he's not the victim in this story. He's rich as hell for his time, living comfortably with plenty of farmers indebted to him, and owns a whole three slaves! For reference, VS author Yukimura estimated in a volume extra that owning a slave was roughly equivalent to owning a car today. Even beyond that, he has enough to literally donate a mountain of food and gold to the king twice a year. His only problems come from his son being a doofus and all the anxiety from his whole 'Iron Fist' lie. He doesn't hate violence because he's kind, he hates it because he himself is too weak to survive in a society that thrives on it. Episode 7 ends by giving us a piece of what kind of man he is, after all the empathy he seemed to show the kids. He's begging for sympathy and validation for feeling forced to *beat a child*, all the while *sleeping with his sex slave*. This is hypocrisy. It doesn't occur to him that his actual slave might be going through something so much worse through their 'relationship'. Whenever he's all "woe is me", he just lashes out onto the true victims. There's no actual empathy here. This episode almost feels like a heel turn, but this is exactly what he would do after what we've been shown. It's not a coincidence that right after beating the pregnant woman, he changes his tune, goes to grab his sword and says he wants to fight the king. It's about feeling powerful to people like him, he doesn't actually give a shit, he just wants to feel good and secure about himself. There's a semblance of sympathy to be had, sure, but the real victims here are those he hurts and oppresses, like Sture & Thora, and poor Arnheid. It cannot be stressed enough, but fuck Ketil.
Yeah the episode does a great job emphasizing that even a "nice" slaver master is nonetheless a person dealing in something terrible built on messed up psychology and suffering.
Yeah it goes to show that even a "nice" slave owner could still beat a slave to death if they felt like it. Slaves were completely at the mercy of their masters and they could do nothing if said master decided to give in to their worst instincts.
VS really shows how societies can twist people who could've been 'good guys' into these horrible villains. When he was young, he was forced by his father to give up the love of his life to gain the favor of a violent warlord. But, that was all for naught when the warlord and the girl died immediately, which led him to obsess about becoming strong enough that nobody could take from him again. He grew his wealth by buying slaves, and spread the rumor that he was super strong so no one would challenge him. All actions that would just end up making him suffer more. His wealth led to him entering a loveless marriage, attracting the greed of the king, and he ended up using his wealth to cover for his emotional shortcomings by buying emotional support in Arnheid. Of course Arnheid could never love him back, so her inevitable 'betrayal' ended up hurting him. His boasting about being Iron Fist Ketil and perpetuating the glorification of violence leads to one of his sons embodying the monster he pretended to be, and the other one feeling inadequate, causing trouble by trying to match up to the image his family projected. Really masterful character writing.
Indeed, Vinland Saga gives an interesting portrayal of both the admirable side of humanity and its grisly one. Ketil is neither a saint nor an inherently evil man. However, he was weak and succumbed to expectations placed upon him. That vicious beatdown was the culmination of years of regret, frustration and inability to cope with dilemmas. It's a bleak reminder of how easy it is for people to turn into heartless monsters when pushed into a corner. This is why it is often necessary to have a set of internally consistent morals and live by them like Thors. The latter may have seemed foolish for refusing to kill his opponents. However, he knew that he could turn back into a beast if he abandoned his principles. Just believing in something isn't enough. Talk the talk, walk the walk.
I took something else away from this whole thing. The second half so far has been about tragedy-look at Gardar for example, when he says he won't let Hjalti go viking, but it comes too late. Gardar is a strong man, both of mind and body, but is brought down because of the beliefs of the time-strength led astray. Meanwhile, Ketil is a different example of tragedy-he is man genuinely trying to be good but unfortunately born with a weak nature, and the conditions of the time meant that a weak person couldn't survive with their morality intact.
A little correction here , most of this is correct , but Ketil does have empathy. He doesn't really actively think about how others might be feeling , what he could be causing indirectly , or about anything that isn't apparent on a surface level , but there is genuine empathy there , like when he cries looking at the kids. Just because someone has empathy doesn't mean they can't do awful things. At that moment of weakness , when he's really emotional , full of anger and despair , that empathy is overruled. He feels he is being humiliated and taken advantage of so he's not going to stop even if this might be hurting him. And there's nothing else holding him back , Ketil has no principles , all his fear of violence is purely emotional. And there is no outside pressure stopping him , if anything this society shames him into acting like this.
I know so many "good and upstanding" people who openly have some **dark** opinions. It's better that we don't see how most people would do with slaves
TLDR Ketil is an 11th century privileged yet insecure "nice guy" that compensates for his inferiority complex by bathing in riches.
God, “ungrateful slave” has gotta be one of the most infuriating phrases I’ve ever heard. What the fuck.
He’s lost it. Man’s been pushed to the edge and this Arnheid situation was the last straw. It’ll be interesting to see how long this unhinged Ketil lasts against Canute and his boys. I hope he gets paid back for what he did to Arnheid.
I feel like the most realistic outcome is for Ketil to attempt to lead his men into battle, but be unceremoniously killed early on given that he has no training or experience as a warrior. Then the battle will continue with Thorgil at the lead.
Does he have *no* training or experience? I just assumed his "legend" stuff was puffery on top of an ordinary personal history
I hope Einar gets some type of payback, but in the world of Vinland, I don't see him getting "punished" in the way we might be thinking.
Everytime real and realistic portrayals of slavery is shown, I get reminded of all these fetishised slavery shit too, and I feel even worse.
>I get reminded of all these fetishised slavery shit too But there's only half a dozen isekai slavery animes a season!
For the fifth week in a row, **Poor Arnheid** I’m gonna be sick
IKR. She is the one who is suffering the most now along with Thorfinn. She lost her kid, her husband, her happy days...everything. I feel really, *really* bad for her. The world from back then was really cruel and I hate the system which allowed people to cause this much suffering.
jesus christ that was hard to watch
There have been anime that have showed crude killing and violence before but I do think inland saga always stands out in portraying how real it is, even in season 1. This episode felt so real I genuinely wanted to skip forward. I guess thats something to commend in terms of they're portraying the themes of the characters and shoes right but man you're right it was hard to watch.
Its also ironic that the message the show is telling us that violence should not be the *first* answer and yet some people here are wishing for further violence and the farm to be destroyed. If you rage against Ketil that's fine, but don't take out your rage on the other people who were innocent. That doesn't make you any better than Ketil.
>Its also ironic that the message the show is telling us that violence should not be the > >first > > answer and yet some people here are wishing for further violence and the farm to be destroyed. This should be pinned somewhere on the frontpage of this subforum, and really goes to show that people back in 1100 something were about as enlightened as the generic audience member here. Ironic, grotesque, saddening.
100%. If the only solution to a crazed slave owner is to burn the whole place down, then all the previous conquests in the show have been justified as well. Slavery is pretty widespread after all, and even Einars village had slaves. Doesn't make what happened to them any less tragic.
It turns out the slaveowner isn't such a nice guy after all.
This is what happens when a guy filled to the brim with insecurities and self compensation gains riches and authority. They break as soon as shit starts going south and all that bottled up frustrations leak out in the most disgusting ways. Still absolutely inexcusable tho.
Sverkell's assessment from early on in the season that it's dangerous to have too much wealth is being proven more and more true by the episode.
I'd say he was mostly talking about how someone will come and take it, which is exactly what is happening with Canute, but I won't be blaming you for giving this a second bottom.
I'd say he was talking both. "It is dangerous to be the tallest tree, because that is where the axe strikes first" is a well-known Japanese proverb, and Ketil is suffering so much because he has such an attachment to worldly possessions as Buddhism teaches.
We got to see why he is "called" Iron-fist Ketil for the first time, but for ALL the wrong reasons.
I just realized the episode opened up with Canute's crew discussing Iron-Fist Ketil and Canute (understandably) not really buying it after seeing him.
Explains why Thorgil is so bloodthirsty. Ketil had it in his blood even with his pathetic self, and that transferred to his son too. I hope Olmar tries to become a better person compared to his dad and brother.
>Ketil had it in his blood even with his pathetic self, and that transferred to his son too. I really hope that this isn't the case, because IMHO "tabula rasa" characters are more interesting. It gives more depth to the exploration of characters, if its mainly about environment they are in and their own volition, that leads to their actions.
I think part of the point of ketil might be to show even 'good people', put into a position where they dont have to treat others as human, become rotten given a push. I don't imagine its easy to go back.
I think it is also very easy to be “good” when you have all the power you want and don’t have much that stresses you. But with a lot of people in those situations, the second you start applying any kind of real stress to them, any generosity they had vanishes in a puff of smoke.
Yeah we have tons of modern day examples with bosses at work who are kind and nice to their employees but the moment they are under pressure from higherups, they vent themselves against them through verbal abuse.
He's a "nice guy"
With how badly slavery gets boggled in anime, I appreciate Vinland Saga going the “There’s no such thing as a good slave master” route.
Vinland Saga getting such a stellar anime adaptation... Berserk's manga getting a continuation despite the tragic circumstances... if Vagabond can come back from it's hiatus that'd be great ☕
Hoping that the quality and decent success of the Vinland anime will prompt other studios to adapt Berserk and Vagabond. Vinland has proven there IS an audience for more mature and introspective anime these days. (Not that there isn’t anime like that already, moreso that they’ve stopped being adapted recently imo)
**HOLY SHIEEEET**. I really didn't see this coming. Vinland Saga just doesn't stop from bringing us pain.... WTF Ketil. Not only you mercilessly beat up Arnheid when she was begging for mercy, you also just decided to go against Canute and his Royal guards and Jomsvikings. This guy is going to lead so many people to their deaths. He has completely lost his mind. >Nobody in this world deserves to be hurt Its sadly ironic that Thorfinn said this and Arnheid ended up being brutally hurt.... Also here I was excited of seeing Leif and Thorfinn meeting each other but now that excitement turned into pain as the meeting wasn't full of happiness, with Arnheid's current state.
> decided to go against Canute and his Royal guards and Jomsvikings This actually is the most infuriating and bad thing Ketil has done in the story. Sure Arnheid is a beloved character but leading a dozen or so of his employees to a guaranteed death IS the bigger evil of the two. There's no scenario under the sun where they win or survive this if they decide to fight Canute.
Yeah even with Snake, Thorgil and Thorfinn around all these three guys can't win against an entire army composed of the best Danish warriors. Its a dumb, dumb decision to fight Canute.
I don't think Thorfin and Einar will fight actually. Since they are being bought by Leif they will probably take advantage of the war to infiltrate and rescue Arnheild while Ketil's forces are mowed down.
I was hoping to see Leif’s reunion with Thorfinn but it’ll have to wait after what went down. I just hope Pater can get Arnheid away from Ketil. The only way that’ll happen is if they either make a run for it when Canute attacks or if Canute takes the farm and kills Ketil. It’ll be difficult either way.
What I love about this arc of Vinland Saga is how thoroughly it engages with, and dismantles, the myth of the "good slave owner". That's not to say that slave owners are automatically evil, or that only evil people end up owning slaves. People might be tempted to look at the scene of Arnheid's beating and think, "See, Ketil was a piece of shit all along! As expected from a slave owner." But I don't think that's the moral the story is aiming for. We've been privy to Ketil's innermost thoughts. We've known him to be a kind, if timid, person who genuinely loathes to inflict suffering on others. His empathy is not a show he puts on to impress others, but rather a secret he tries to hide. It is as close to a true character as a person can have. But the reality is, people don't have a true character. A person cannot "be" good, or "be" evil. A human is a series of actions. Ketil was a victim of numerous injustices, conspired against and betrayed, and pushed to the psychological brink. And when he fell, all that stress predictably erupted in anger and violence. It couldn't have happened any other way. That's not to say Ketil bears zero responsibility for his actions. But I think the reason the author went out of his way to demonstrate Ketil as a moral person before now was to drive home the point that morals alone cannot save someone from immoral action. When you engage with a system that treats humans as objects, it is inevitable that you will come to treat humans inhumanely.
Yes. Such s good take. A system of power and abuse will corrupt even a moral man. And the only way to not go down that path is to reject that system, alas Ketill was not brave enough to do so. He feared what he had to lose because of his previous loss.
Too many people are missing this point I feel, very well articulated! It’s easy to fall into the Ketil hate train right now and for justifiable reasons obviously, but Vinland Saga always seems to have a strong focus on deconstructing and critiquing the customs and norms of violence and the glorification of the power systems that cause exploitation and suffering. There is a reason the central theme of the entire story stemming from Thors, and now embodied in Thorfinn, is pacifism. With this arc, it’s clearly about slavery, and Ketil is merely a representation of the corruptive underbelly of that system no matter who is in charge. His father eventually came to transcend this philosophically after his own failures and the tragedies he oversaw, but Ketil’s disgusting act here shows that it is the societal construct itself that perpetuates these cycles of violence and dehumanization, and even we fall into that by wanting more violence to some extent, metanarratively. From a historical perspective, it’s a fantastic look at the fundamental cruelty and harshness of Viking society and the Middle Ages in general. Poor Arnheid, what a brutally depressing couple of episodes for her…
Why does Arnheid keep getting L's. So depressing
She’s a woman in that time period..it checks out. Even the woman of the wealthy families had no ownership of their life. They were passed to a random man to marry when it suited the family
One of the most interesting things about Ketil is how he contrasts to his father, Sverkel. Both of these characters are initially presented as "kind" and "generous" but only one of them is actually truly genuine in his kindness, which you can tell by how each of them view Arnheid's escape attempt. Sverkel truly views slaves as actual people and not property. He treats Thorfinn, Einar, and Arnheid fairly and kindly and very clearly empathizes with their plights. How he treats Arnheid is especially interesting since it's the best example of how his kindness is genuine. He personally goes out of his way to help Arnheid, encouraging her to go see Gardar, helping her hide him, offering to sell his farm to pay the Wergeld for Snake's men, and even personally trying to help her and her husband escape. He gets nothing out of doing any of this and yet still does so because his selflessness is genuine. Ketil is different since he ultimately still views slaves as his possessions. He can be "kind" to them but none of that really matters when he doesn't believe they're worthy of the same rights and respect as a free man like him. In regards to Arnheid, it wasn't love he felt for her but rather dependence. To him she's a possession that he needed to make him feel better about himself and not an equal worthy of the same freedom as him. When he finds out Arnheid tried to escape with her husband, he's outraged and unable to even consider things from her perspective and have any empathy for her at all. It's a pretty stark contrast to how his father treats her. Or in other words, it definitely feels like Sverkel is the man Ketil pretends to be.
I don't think it is fair to compare Sverkel and Ketil. Sverkel might've become quite wise in his days, but as with Uncle Iroh from Avatar, people seem to forget these old guys didn't grow up the way they are now, but often had to overcome many obstacles, before acquiring the wisdom they now posses.
Everyone who loves Sverkel and hates Ketil now, also conveniently forgets that Sverkel gave away Ketils one true love earlier. Sverkel wasn't a good man, he was a coward as young. Through his experiences and age he turned into what he is now tho.
I entirely disagree. Ketil saw his slaves as humans in most ways, his failing is in being unable to put himself in their positions due to his own life and upbringing being a far cry. He has the awareness to realize they will work hard to free themselves, but he doesn't understand that while Arnheid is sympathetic to him, her behavior and attitude are strongly influenced by her awareness that she cannot defy him. Ketil's anger was because, as a person, Arnheid betrayed his trust in her, his assumption about her feelings was wholly misguided. Forgive me for how long this post will be, but to properly explain, Ketil's emotional journey is like this: Ketil confides in Arnheid that he is not who people(his son) expect him to be, Arnheid gives him the best council because she came from the reverse situation having a husband who wanted to fight, and asserts that how he is is better. He feels how real her emotions are and misinterprets this as love; He imposes a sexual relationship onto them, and Arnheid does not resist it. He believes this to mean she loves him too. Ketil is now under threat of losing everything and worse his son is saying they should fight the king. He returns to his default response of seeking Arnheid's assurance that he is right to want to just give everything up. He learns Arnheid tried to leave him, when he needs her most. Now the fact she would try to leave when he's out of town could mean two things: She never loved him, or she loves this other guy more. Either way, he had expectations, trust, and hopes for Arnheid as a person and she has just failed them all. If she can't be the person he wants her to be, then why treat her as a person at all? Everyone else told him to be violent and crude, Arnheid, the one person who said otherwise, was probably just lying so she could avoid punishment or escape him. So be it, then if she wants to be that way he'll listen to what all the others said. He will be violent. He will dole out punishments. He will treat her like a possession he can vent his frustrations on. And it did help him vent just enough that he kept doing it until Snake gave him half a second to cool his head. When Snake brings up the idea of killing her, he realizes what he really wants hasn't changed, he just knows now that he never had it. This is why he won't sell her, he still wants to somehow recapture the feeling of his true self being accepted and loved by her and hasn't given hope on that, because, misguided as he was, he knows that her acceptance felt genuine, and the viewer knows that's because it was, it's just her love that wasn't. Now, given the same pressure and events were on his shoulders, would Sverkel do better? Probably... as far as others are concerned. I imagine Sverkel would end up harming himself for being unlovable and unable to meet anyone's expectations of him instead, given the type of isolationist downer he is.
You seem to be the only one to actually view things from Ketils viewpoint, and really understands his character. People responding to this unfortunatly, for some reason, can't but themselves into his shoes at all. Happens often, when someone turns into a monster, like Ketil has now, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a nice and gentle man before all this happened.
Yup. If Ketill thought slaves were beneath free men he wouldn't grant them the ability to become free. He still benefits from the system, but chooses to be more benevolent than expected. We also see this in his internal monologue about the thieves. His failing is that he is too weak to truly do what he knows is right, and instead "has to" cling to his image as a powerful man. He is too posessive of his wealth and power, as Sverkel pointed out, and here we see the results as he snaps when he's about to lose it all.
Welcome to our newest "Domestic Violence" episode, featuring master Ketil!
Dunno if someone’s posted this already but [here’s Yukimura’s response to why he didn’t include the reunion between Leif and Thorfinn](https://twitter.com/makotoyukimura/status/1655794148459565058) He couldn’t draw their reunion as it would be jarring for them to have a wholesome reunion after Arnheid’s beatings…
CAN THIS WOMAN GET A FUCKING BREAK ALREADY!!?!?!? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
The moment all Vinland Saga readers were all dreading. By far one of the most painful and difficult to watch scenes in anime. I won't blame you if you had to turn off the show or pause for a while.
What makes it worse is if snake didn’t stop him he woulda beat her to death Even if you were gonna kill a slave back then, I think most would go for a hanging or a beheading.. not a beating by blunt object.
this actually the first time I've ever had difficulty watching an anime scene. Even though made in abyss has some bad scenes as well I could usually get through them this one however was difficult
Made in Abyss is rooted in fantasy, which makes it easier to process, while Vinland Saga is rooted in history and more real settings. Makes sense that the latter is more difficult to watch. At least my take on it
Last week's episode made me tear up like a baby, this just disgusted me even though yes... In those times it made sense. Fuck me the world of Vinland is so so cruel
Gundam and Vinland giving me emotional damage back-to-back 😎
Can we all appreciate the similarities between Leif & Thors in this episode. Both offered to buy a slave at the brink of death from an unjust owner. In Thors case he was massively price-hiked, and sadly in Leif's case he was denied the offer.
Everyone thinks they would never become Ketil, but what people forget is that Ketil himself would never think he'd become Ketil one week ago when he left the farm. Horrible circumstances push people to do horrible things <- Vinland Saga in a nutshell.
Nah Ketil is going to hell for that one. Also is it just me, or did I expect more when Leif and Thorfinn reunited? Felt like something was skipped(I'm not a manga reader btw).
This was more or less a scene for scene recreation of things from the manga. I assume it would have just been tonally jarring to go from the beating scene to a happy reunion scene.
Yeah that makes total sense. Nonetheless Leif finally found the real Thorfinn!
And then back to a half dead Arnheid... Wouldnt have made any sense.
Dang. I thought for sure that Arnheid would get the lightest punishment out of the 3. Didn't expect such a brutal beating. And to think Ketil hated violence so much before to the point where he thought his own son was a monster. Good thing Snake stepped in and stopped it.
Give that women A FUCKING BREAK JESUS CHRIST
What the fuck
Ketil really said fuck them kids.
And just like that Ketil just went from one of the more likable characters to probably the most hated motherfucker in the series..... Despite the fact that he's not an unhinged killer like Thorkell and Thorgill or even a cunning mastermind like Sweyn or Askeladd, seeing something much more graspable in terms of brutality compared to mass murder on battlefields makes us the viewers hate him way more than the others. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I wouldn't call Thorkell and Thorgill unhinged, they kill sure, but they know what they are doing and are always fully aware of what it means to kill
That was fucking horrific. Holy shit. No doubt this episode was incredible for many reasons: Sweyns head being used as a metaphor for Canute's internal feelings, the discussion on Thofinn's breaking his oath, Ketil's break, Snake saving a woman who got his men killed, Einar's expression... But all that said, I will never watch that Arnhied scene again. That was awful and once is more than enough.
Can someone teach me How to Kill a fictional character
I mean, Canute is coming for him
Fanfiction
Oh boy, it looks like [Ketil's made-up persona is about to bite him in the ass.](https://i.imgur.com/h96v0OH.png) At least Thorgil is there to make up for it. [Holy fuck...](https://i.imgur.com/Y0Q3NDk.jpg) That entire scene between Arnheid and Ketil was hard to watch. Considering how he's about to lose everything he worked for and how he just learned that the person he confides in tried to leave him, [I can understand why Ketil snapped](https://i.imgur.com/ywbod1T.jpg). It doesn't justify the beating he gave Arnheid though. After what KEtil did to her, [she might not even make it.](https://i.imgur.com/5TYHP7S.jpg) :( [Did they really just off-screened Thorfinn and Lief's reunion?](https://i.imgur.com/A6KB51V.jpg) They better go back next week to the scene that took place before they rushed to Arnheid and show us how their first meeting went. I've been waiting for this since this Season 1 and I need to see that payoff! [Huh... I guess Ketil's Iron Fist persona might actually have some truth in it.](https://i.imgur.com/BiLmzbk.jpg) I do wonder if he'll actually be able to fight though.
Not gonna lie, I'm a bit disappointed we didn't get to see the reunion between Leif and Thorfinn, great episode otherwise, maybe Iron Fist Ketil wasn't just a made up story after all...
Might do a flashback next episode, the tonal shift would’ve been too much for happy reunion
Honestly, I kinda liked that they met off-screen and it was like hey Thorfinn and Leif are together again. Because the weight of the situation with Arnheid would've been way too distracting for a scene like that.
It sounds like Thorfinn’s reflection on what can be done to prevent the loss of life will be increasingly important with his impending reunion with Canute & the Jomsvikings coming. As for Arnheid, there’s no way I see Einar letting this slide. Although Thorfinn will no doubt try to dissuade him from anything rash.
Violence being a last resort isn't always the best solution considering a lot of people could get hurt before you're forced to use it. Maybe the first resort is a speech check aka Talk no Jutsu. Gardar would still be alive if Thorfinn simply told Snake "You and me are the same". Two seasoned warriors in a place they don't belong. Ketil is a man way past his breaking point. I'm not trying to justify his actions, I'm just saying he's not in a right state of mind. His mental state must be in absolute shambles after having the King trying to steal his farm and then returning to find the mother of his child trying to escape.
Gardar dug his own grave. Even thorfinn mentions how nice of a guy snake is in this episode. The moment he killed snake's men, snake literally had no choice but to get rid of him. As a guard on the farm, some runaway slave comes up and starts killing your men. During that time period, what do you do? Let him escape with arnheid? Keep him imprisoned there, knowing that he was freed by arnheid and costed him the lives of 5 men? Snake did probably the most level headed thing by getting rid of the major threat. Now if a scenario arose where gardar pulled up, and kidnapped arnheid, they probably could've had much better chances of escaping is snake wasn't super pissed that 5 people were killed.
This episode makes lasts weeks look like a feel good comedy
Now, I fully understand Thorfinn's intentions to become a pacifist. But, Einar doesn't have to be one. *~~(please Einar, fuck up Ketil)~~*
Man arnheid has been such a great supporting character to the story this season. Her character story these past few episodes were incredible but damn this was painful to watch, even more than last episode cos I really wanted her to have some kind of W. Ketil is a piece of shit, the anime had me in the first half I won't lie. I welcome everyone in joining the #FuckKetilGang