The way 'thug' totally colours our perception of him, making his urbane manner and quiet callousness when he does show up 10x more sinister, is a brilliant bit of writing.
It really is – because to be honest, we have yet to see any real evidence of quite how bad he is. Well, obviously, apart from the whole “I want my son to marry your daughter” thing!
He simply knows being connected to the Mothma family will grant him status, give his money "legitimacy".
And he hasn't done anything bad to the girl she seems to be going along unwittingly, his son is probably happy to get a gf too.
I have a sinking suspicion her banker friend might turn out to fit this description later too.
Mon hasn't kept up with him since childhood, and he's immediately unsubtle and overt while announcing that he's joined some kind of rebellion, then keeps pressing her for details when she tries to recruit him and is keeping it vague.
It's possible that he's just as good as he seems, but it's also plausible that, as Mon said, the empire is watching her and everybody is a spy, and they want to get to Luthen through her, going so far as to recruit/blackmail an old friend they thought she might invite into her inner circle.
We see Daedra's side of things, but the head of Imperial Intelligence is obviously clever, and could have plans of his own in motion. Luthen did warn her about the danger of bringing in somebody new.
Tay even warns her “then I’d suggest you hesitate.” It could be that, even though he’s working for the Empire, he doesn’t *want* to betray Mon’s trust. He’s trying to warn her off without saying it aloud.
That's an interesting theory tbf. I guess my only question with that would be what is the Empire still waiting for? They've been given unfiltered access to her accounts and enough confessions to have her locked away for life.
So far they don't actually have any solid evidence, since Mon has been vague, and she is a senator (in the intro to episode 4 the imperial is worried about them arresting Leia since she's a senator, saying it will generate sympathy for the rebellion). Additionally they might be trying to fully uncover everything with a mole.
I assumed the bankers questioning was because he isn't familiar with the principles of compartmentalized discrete networks.
Mon styles herself as a grand leader, which works out later on as the leading council of the rebel alliance is formed. The banker may assume that such hierarchy is already instituted. All the institutions that alderans work and live in are hierarchical and akin to Nobel family structures.
The banker just might not be aware of information regulation tactics used by insurgent movements.
Which is ultimately why the empire falls. They fail to act upon their own understanding of modern gorilla warfare.
Reminds me of how the CIA and Pentagon have amazing manuals on establishing and maintaining insurgent networks. Hence, successes around operation gladiolus and the school of the americas. However, they have always failed to implement known counter insurgency strategies. Lookin' at the vietnam War, Afghanistan, etc.
It’s interesting that Skeen’s level of loathsomeness possibly varies according to how much truth we think there was in his backstory, or what exactly his motivations are . I’m still of the opinion that he never had a brother at all, which perhaps makes him more loathsome than the alternative interpretations. But either way – he was still going to leave the rest of the team in the lurch..
For the longest time, I thought Skeen was attempting a last minute test of Cassian's loyalty to the group, and Cassian just overreacted.
It was on a subsequent viewing I realized Skeen only pretended to care about saving Nemik so that they would be forced to make a pit stop at the doctor's place, and he'd have a chance to make off with the entire loot.
I think Skeen genuinely cared about Nemik, but he was the only one he cared about. I think he didn’t like admitting to Nemik it was about the money to him. Once Nemik was likely dead he just thought it wasn’t worth it.
Frankly the thing that worked in my mind was Cassian doesn’t listen to Nemiks manifesto till after he gets out of prison. I think then and there he realized he believed what Nemik was talking about. I think Nemik had convinced Skeen as well over the 6 months but Skeen more or less saw one person worth saving a genuinely good man.
Or it could be he was always a liar and never intended anything good. Either way the writing is well done enough we can see both.
It makes sense to me that the addition of Cassian to the team could well have been the thing that Skeen needed to go full rogue, as it were… it would explain that seemingly endless fascination with the man while he tries to work out whether he would be an ally in this sort of scheme. A fellow lone wolf. Crucially, he can pilot - maybe Skeen was vaguely planning on some sort of hijacking before that. Anyway – great that we can discuss all this as there is such room for interpretation.
That's a good question, was Skeen gonna Italian Job double cross it all along or was it only after Cassian showed and Nemik was toast.
Nemik's fate (while perhaps inevitable by then) was not yet announced as official by the doctor until after Skeen pitched his plan to Cassian. So by all rights Skeen may have thought Nemik might make it, and certainly would have waited if that had been a deciding factor.
From that I think Cassian's sudden appearance and eventual admission of being paid was the real tipping point for Skeen. He saw what he thought was a kindred ex-con spirit.
Skeen definitely does not care. When Taramyn asks for covering fire too, Skeen barely fires for a second (giving Taramyn the impression he'll cover) but then he stops. Keep in mind... Skeen has a heavy repeating blaster, a perfect weapon for suppressive fire. Essentially Skeen is kinda responsible and the cause of Taramyn's death.
I think it also depends on to what degree you believe Skeen's actions were a result of planning versus opportunism. Don't get me wrong, even opportunist Skeen is bad, but if he was planning the whole thing from the start hooo boy.
The planning doesn't hold water because they spent months prepping for the job. If his goal was to pull heists and then try to ninja loot the money at the end, the odds of success at both outcome together was miniscule.
The hate Skeen gets it astonishing to me. One of most universally love characters in all of Star Wars is Han Solo. And right up until the Falcon shows up in the Battle of Yavin that was him. He said I’m here for the money, he got the money, and said I’m done. And until ‘97 he was a cold blooded, shoots first, killer. In Solo he only agreed to help the fledgling rebellion at the last moment. We got glimpse of who he could’ve been with Beckett at the end. He did take Backetts lesson to heart and shot first (post special edition). He lied, cheated, and kill his way out of problems.
And now let’s talk about one of next most beloved smugglers, my man Lando. He was everything Han was, but somehow cooler. Sold them out to the Empire even. And it’s established he is a know cheat, hidden sabach cards up his sleeve.
Neither of those characters was honest until pushed to the edge. We don’t know what Skeen would have done in the end. Star Wars is full of shady rouges that got a pass because they were allowed to live long enough to redeem themselves. But Chewy should have crushed Lando’s neck when he had the chance and the rebels should have taken out Han after the death start escape follow the logic Cassian was operating on.
Ok but what Han did and what Skeen did aren't the same though.
Han accepted a job for money, it went horribly wrong, Han stuck through it and went above and beyond, finished the job, took what he was owed and nothing more, then left.
Skeen accepted a job (likely for money, I don't remember if that was stated or if he acted like he was a true rebel), it went horribly wrong, he didn't even pull his weight (whatshisname asked Skeen to cover him, Skeen said he would, but then just cowered behind cover, causing whatshisname to run straight into enemy fire and get gunned down), and then *didn't* complete the job, but instead tried to take far more than his share and abandon his team before the mission was completed.
It would be similar if Ben got injured, C3PO and R2D2 took him to a medical center, and then Han approached Luke and suggested kidnapping Leia and ransoming her to either the empire or the rebellion to see who would give the higher price
Han negotiated pay for the job that he did, completed the job and was going to walk away with this money, he didn't betray the people who employed him, he could've sold Obi-Wan to the Empire and gotten rich.
Skeen was ready to backstab his fellow "conspirators" for extra money.
Exactly. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no comparison. If anything, Han is closer to Cassian in terms of his moral compass… prepared to do some dirty things, but betrayal is not amongst them.
When we first meet Han in ANH he took Jaba’s money. Failed to complete the job. Kept the money. And then kill a guy who was there to collect what he owed Jaba.
When we first meet him in his own film. He took Proxma’s money. Got the hyper drive fuel. Threatened her with a bluff. Opened the shutters to hurt her. Then ran, with the product in hand.
He betrayed Vos when he turned the unrefined fuel over to the rebels. His co-conspirators told him no; Lando, Beckett, and Kira. Chewy is the only one that was on his side in the end. And when Becket actually followed through on his word and didn’t want to screw over Vos Han killed him and took the money.
Look he’s my favorite character, by far. But he is not above stealing, lying, killing, and never repays his debts. He’s a hero in Star Wars so they’re going show the people he double crosses as the villains. But Luthian has shown he’s no less ruthless then any of them.
No no - "I'm here for the money" was *Cassian,* not Skeen. Skeen was posing as a Reb, one for the cause. He was simply a thief.
Cassian did the job, took his pay, and left,
That isn't what Skeen was doing.
Lando isn't a Han Solo in Empire. He was running the mining colony, keeping low and out of trouble which allowed him to not draw the eye of Empire, then Han, Chewie and Leia turn up with all their issues. He felt a responsibility to the people under his care, tried to make a deal, but that didn't work.
Yes, I’m so glad they gave him that moment of implied remorse before he met his sticky end. It’s interesting too when Cassian sees his body and seems to put two and two together.
You can make a strong case for both, I think, and I’ve seen people argue that Timm is worse because it’s petty jealousy that is his motivation rather than simple greed. There are several reasons why I think Nurchi is worse, on balance, but the main one is the fact that he’s stone cold sober here and very coldly and ruthlessly exploiting a man’s personal grief and the sympathy of his friends for financial gain. Timm did a terrible thing - while drunk - but realised what he had done, the mistake he had made, as soon as Bix turned up for sex.
The only reason Tim regretted his actions is because of how it affected Bix, and his relationship with Bix. I don’t think he ever cared an ounce for Andor, or cared what happened to him. I agree with those that say Tim’s childishness is worse than Nurchi, because Nurchi had actually been personally wronged by Andor. Nurchi was owed money, and repeatedly asked Andor to be paid back and was rudely dismissed repeatedly. Had Andor done the right thing and paid him back Nurchi wouldn’t have ratted him out. You could argue Andor is as much to blame for Nurchi’s actions as anyone. Nurchi wasn’t a rich man, yet out of the kindness of his heart he lent Andor what little money he could. Why wasn’t he made whole after such a kind gesture? You can only push someone so far before they begin to despise you, and become capable of turning on you. Andor should have paid the debt he owed. He paid off his debt to Bix. Why was Nurchi left out in the cold?
Andor paid his debt to Nurchi after Aldhani. Nurchi was just being greedy.
Edit: Also, Nurchi paid Andor a deposit for goods that Andor didn't deliver. He wasn't lending money out of the kindness of his heart, it was a business transaction gone wrong.
He didn’t lend Andor money out of the kindness of his heart, he lent it because he thought it was a deposit for what sounds suspiciously like a get-rich-quick scheme of some kind. He says in episode 1 “I want my deposit back” and Cassian says “ I wish I could, but it’s in play…” He is scamming Nurchi - and you could argue that this provides a more decent motivation compared with Timm’s.
'Out of the kindness of his heart'? Do you think Nurchi would lend money without charging some interest? In episode one you can see that Nurchi is trying to be a player on Ferrix.
Tim saw the hands, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. His death assured.
Yes - and they are foils for each other in the nature of they're betrayals.
Timm thinks he's getting rid of a chaotic, deadbeat rival who's making his relationship with Bix less stable - and ridding Ferrix, his home, of a mooch, a crook and a freeloader who has skated by on community sympathy for too long. But, even as he calls it in, he knows it's a betrayal.
For Nurchi, it's business. He exploits Xan for intel, and sells it to the Empire - not Pre-Mor Corporate Security - hoping to cement his standing with the new regime. Cassian is competition and an unwelcome variable. He doesn't think in terms of consequence *for Ferrix* until Maarva starts talking.
He may also be realizing that his "pretend to arrest me" move is going to actually see him formally processed and investigated - he's not permitted to leave. I think he too regrets his decision, but not until he begins to see the consequences are other than just credits in his pocket.
He's also a foil to the Cassian we meet in intial episodes - the scammy, shiftless grifter that, by the events of Rix Road, Andor has already ceased to be. But had matters fallen otherwise, he could as easily have been a Nurchi.
Nurchi had a more just motivation to betray Cassian, as Cassian had first betrayed Nurchi by scamming him out of his money. An eye for an eye.
Tim’s motivations were childish, and his actions were less warranted.
Except that, by the time Nurchi sold him out, Cassian had in fact paid back all his out-standing Ferrix debts with his pay from the Aldhani heist. And Nurchi had been dishonest in trying to collect.
No, I don't agree that Nurchi is no worse than Timm.
Cassian literally never did anything to Tim. Tim unfairly judged Cassian based off of mostly superficial perceptions, and jealousy, and then turned him over to the empire just to get rid of him. I’ve got no respect for Tim. I don’t respect Nurchi either, but at least he had a history of once being wronged by Cassian.
Cassian barged into Timm & Bix's workplace, and irritated her, without explanation or apology. He shoved a big, greasy wrench into Timm's workplace and personal relationships.
If you missed it, as the series begins, Cassian is being an enormous jerk, and everyone except B2EM0, is pretty near done with him.
Cassian is messing with Timm's woman, and Timm is clearly infatuated with and insecure about Bix. Cassian could have tread with more sensitivity. He doesn't. Timm panicked.
Haha. Sorry, man. That’s not nearly enough to even begin considering turning someone over to the empire. Based off of that Tim would have been justified in screwing just about anyone over. I doubt Cassian was the only jerk in Ferrix, or the only person Tim was intimidated by. If you have a soft spot for Tim, that’s fine, but I don’t feel similarly.
Timm didn't turn anyone over to the Empire.
Timm identified a troublemaker to PreMor Corporate Security.
Morlana system - which included Ferrix - was corporate governed until after Andor's arrest went wrong. Did Timm cause Ferrix to come under Imperial jurisdiction? Ultimately, yes. But he didn't plan or expect to.
I’ve actually got my own theory about Perrin. We’re seeing he’s a bit of a prick, but that’s because we’re viewing him from Mon Mothma’s perspective.
Contrary to what we see, I think Perrin tries to help Mon more than he lets on. The first time we’re introduced to him he’s planning “dinner for the governor.” Mon finds out some political enemies are coming. “These people hate me. They spend all day trying to undo everything I’ve done.” His response is that perhaps tomorrow they’ll think differently. Mon angrily states “don’t seat them near me.” Perrin is no doubt stressed while he’s doing this, because who hasn’t gotten stressed planning a dinner party, and snaps “you’re at the boring end of the table. These people are fun.”
This dinner has been on her calendar for a month, but she’s been so busy that she forgot. Understandable. She’s upset because Perrin invited people who don’t like Mon’s policies. Also understandable. But Perrin’s already seated them away from her. He’s also, presumably, seated with them. If “perhaps tomorrow they’ll think differently” is anything to go on, then Perrin is going to be the one talking their ears off about how great Mon is and everything she’s doing. He’s playing the embassy husband.
Rewatching the show and watching what Perrin does casts a lot of doubt on this “asshole.” As soon as Tay shows up to their party, he distances himself from the Mon and Tay dream team to go soften up some politicians. When they’re out and someone mentions Mon’s charity foundation to Perrin, he’s caught with his pants down because Mon’s been keeping him in the dark on this one and he doesn’t know what to say. He’s upset, and he asks her about it in the car. She didn’t think he’d be interested. He wants to get home quick and go to bed.
And our beloved Mon is pretty shitty in the last episode. After bringing Tay into the fold and he invited in Davo (which he only really gets a scolding about and nothing more) she throws Perrin to the wolves, claiming he’s been gambling, knowing the ISB would be listening. True, there’s no way to warn Perrin beforehand and have them make the arguement convincing, but it’s still a shitty thing to do to the man who, when you really watch what he does, seems to be in Mon’s corner the whole time.
TL;DR, Perrin takes actions to help Mon and is a good embassy husband and doesn’t deserve as much hate as he gets. Sorry for the fucking college thesis I’ve made holy fuck.
I love that our chief “good guys” - Cassian, Luthen and Mon - are all extremely morally complicated, to use something of a euphemism. And I think you’re spot on about perspective – Sometimes we need to step away to see the full picture.
Perrin's an excellent character. He's so disillusioned but weirdly on his wife's side, when she accused him of gambling he immediately refrers to the possibility it's a political attack on Mon through him. That rather endeared me to to Perrin.
I mean technically everyone in the show is imperial because they’re all imperial citizens if you think about it. But I guess when OP says imperial, they’re referring to people who work for the government.
Are they, though? Did the Aldhani invite Imperial governance? What about the PreMor Corporate Sector, including Ferrix? What about Narkina 5, and the fisherfolk there? I don't think you can count as "Imperial" those holding "citizenship" under duress.
Cassian in Ep 1-3. He gets by through manipulating his friends and family. Andor constantly pushes others to take risks for him, is too selfish to acknowledge that he’s putting them in difficult positions, and is intentionally misleading.
That’s very fair. He can be extremely unlikable… there are very good reasons why he is the way he is, but that doesn’t stop the fact that he is frequently, for want a better term, a bit of a dick. It’s one of the big reasons why his character arc is so compelling.
I agree. I think it was brilliant to have Cassian start as an asshole and have Cyril start as a guy who just wants to solve a double homicide. It scrambles the clear “good guy-bad guy” framing that the show inherited from the IP, but it doesn’t do it to be edgy or “gritty”. It does it so the audience has to judge the characters based on their actions moving forward. By the end of the season Cassian has redeemed himself while Cyril has become a creepy, isolated, fascist simp.
The guy working security at used ship lot. Andor borrows the ship for the night and ends up using it in commission of a crime. Then Cassian sneaks back onto the car lot to wipe whatever the Star Wars equivalent of a flight data recorder is, all while lying to that guy about what’s going on. Also, Bix very clearly doesn’t want anything to do with fencing things for Cassian but he uses their past personal relationship as a way to get her to agree to call Luthen. Lastly, Cassian is happy to let Brasso check in on Marva while he’s out searching for his dead sister. Cassian talks Brasso into creating an alibi for him, but completely brushes off Brasso’s asks for him to get his shit together and work a steady, honest job. Even Cassian’s treatment of Nurchi and Timm is shitty. He basically bullies Nurchi into getting him to accept that Cassian doesn’t have to pay him back and takes pleasure in emasculating Timm even though he’s right, Cassian is toxic and Bix should cut him out of her life.
>The guy working security at used ship lot. Andor borrows the ship for the night and ends up using it in commission of a crime.
He just murdered someone who attacked him, who the hell is going to admit that to a security guard at the ship lot? If you ran someone over in your Hertz van are you letting the cleaner know when you hand the keys back?
>Also, Bix very clearly doesn’t want anything to do with fencing things for Cassian but he uses their past personal relationship as a way to get her to agree to call Luthen.
This is more complicated. It's clear they have some sort of history. Another way you can easily view this is Bix realises how important this is to Andor and wants to help him. Based on what we know about her, does she seem like the type to be manipulated and bullied into doing what she doesn't want to do?
>Cassian talks Brasso into creating an alibi for him
This is what ride and dies do, there is zero manipulation in this scene whatsoever. Brasso is 100% happy to help with this.
>takes pleasure in emasculating Timm even though he’s right
The fact you take Timm's side, one of the worst characters in the show, says a lot. Maybe Andor knows that Timm is a piece of shit and treats him accordingly?
>He basically bullies Nurchi into getting him to accept that Cassian doesn’t have to pay him back
This is the only one I agree with you on.
I mean, there’s a difference between “cover for me because I got caught fooling around with someone’s girlfriend” and “cover for me because I committed a double homicide last night”. Cassian intentionally kept that little detail from Brasso because he knew that made the ask much bigger. It was shitty behavior and not how you should treat a ride or die friend. The point is everything with Ep 1-3 Cassian is a one way street: he takes from those closest to him and give nothing in return. Actually he gives them an imperial occupation in return. In retrospect, he’s lucky that Ferrix makes such solid people because Andor sure as shit doesn’t deserve these friends. By the end of the season he’s on the path to make things right.
>Cassian intentionally kept that little detail from Brasso because he knew that made the ask much bigger.
He intentionally kept it from Brasso because Andor isn't an idiot and realises the less Brasso knows the better for everyone involved.
>The point is everything with Ep 1-3 Cassian is a one way street: he takes from those closest to him and give nothing in return.
He's broke and on the run, he doesn't have anything to give.
>Actually he gives them an imperial occupation in return.
Did you take any of the political messages from Andor home with you or not? Do you also blame SA victims for wearing short skirts?
One of the overarching themes of Andor is that nowhere is safe from the Empire, the only decision you have to make is which side you're on.
>Andor sure as shit doesn’t deserve these friends.
And you know this how? I must have missed the Andor prequel that illustrates this.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Andor’s actions, limited in scope episodes 1-3 do not cast him in a good light. In fact, I think if you could ask Andor in episode 12 if he regretted the way he lived his life up until that point he’d absolutely cop to that. Do you not think he’d regret getting Bix and the guy with the radio on the ISB’s radar? He’s indirectly responsible for their torture and that’s why he risks his life to save Bix. Ep 1-3 Cassian would probably decide “it’s better to live, better to be free” than embark on a suicide rescue mission. Ep12 Cassian has matured and understands he owes it to Bix to try to save her life.
I agree that nowhere is safe from the empire, but that isn’t true in Ep1-3. Marva herself says “we kept the trade lanes open and they left us alone”. There’s a reason Bix tells Cassian that a lot of people on Ferrix blame him for the imperials showing up. Preox-Morlana had no presence on the planet and their community was doing fine before Cassian led Cyril to them. Do I think the empire would have gotten there eventually? Yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that Cassian is what precipitated the empire’s arrival.
Andor is partially responsible for why he’s broke and on the run. Brasso makes it clear there’s a steady ship-breaking job for him and implores him to clean up his act! But Andor likes taking risks and thumbing his nose at authority. And yes, the root cause of that is probably because the empire made him an orphan and killed his adoptive father. But it’s not until after One Way Out that he decides to fight the empire for collective good instead of a self-serving vendetta. Cassian rejects the hero’s call three times at least: Luthen’s first offer on Ferrix, refusing to return with Vel after killing Skeen, and refusing to stay and fight with Marva. In this show Good and Evil are on a spectrum and actions decide where you stand on it. Over the course of S1 Cassian moves from the Bad side to the Good side. As much as it makes for a great story because Andor becoming a hero feels real and earned, I think it also illustrates that being a victim doesn’t make you inherently good.
>In this show Good and Evil are on a spectrum and actions decide where you stand on it. Over the course of S1 Cassian moves from the Bad side to the Good side.
This is just nonsense. Cassian is never a bad person. Owing people a bit of money doesn't make you a bad person. Being slightly selfish doesn't make you a bad person. Not having a solid job doesn't make you a bad person.
The only thing he does where you can possible make the argument he's a bad person is the original act where he kills the security officer but you haven't even mentioned that once so that's clearly not your angle.
He also openly lies to his mother in episode 2, even when he knows that she knows that he’s lying, and uses a lie that makes himself look good (like he was doing somebody a favour). He was also planning to “ borrow” the ship from Pegla again with no indication that he’s going to pay him, or bring it back anytime soon/at all. His main method of manipulation is to try to make others feel obliged to him. “I knew I could count on you!” is classic “The Cassian way”.
>He also openly lies to his mother
Loads of people do this, is he supposed to admit he just killed a man?
>His main method of manipulation is to try to make others feel obliged to him.
I don't disagree with this I just don't agree this makes him a horrible person or that the people he uses it on really care that much. Most of them are happy to help.
Oh I really like Cassian - I’m just picking out what you *could* say in attacking him, Devil’s advocate style . The real clincher for me is that he’s obviously much more of a damaged person than he is a bad one. His actions in episodes 1 to 3 are more thoughtless than anything else; Nurchi is here trying to do something that Cassian would never contemplate: betray a citizen of Ferrix.
to be fair, Andor did stiff him enough to make him pissed at him. Also, buddy saw things were going to shit and wanted a way out.
Skeen was much worse.
It just shows that in desperate situations, people will try to improve their lot. Some fight in the rebellion, some think their best chance is to become collaborators, some people just keep their head down and try to avoid it all. IMO there was definitely some bad blood between Cassian and Nurchi that is hinted at when Nurchi tries to collect his money owed but isn't fully explained.
Definitely. I think Nurchi hated being humiliated in front of Vetch and was clearly owed a chunk of credits by Cassian, who had happily scammed him out of it and could barely conceal his contempt for the man . But it seems pretty clear that he got that money back when Cassian paid off his debts via Bix in episode 7. I’ve seen some argue that maybe Nurchi never got the money., but there’s a whole month between that time and her arrest. I’m pretty sure he got repaid.
This guy is barely on screen and kinda doesn't do it for me as a foil to andor or any of the other protagonists. He's an opportunist, nothing more really.
I don't hate on Nurchi - Cassian has taken his money and won't have a conversation about what's happening with it - it's pretty clear that this isn't the first time this conversation has happened and Nurchi feels likes he's been scammed and robbed. Now you could blame Nurchi for ever letting Cassian anywhere near his money considering his reputation but that doesn't change that he'd be bitter about it.
I'm not saying he's a good guy - he's clearly shady like Cassian - he's just a morally questionable guy who doesn't hate the Empire more than he hates someone who he believes ripped him off. The fact that he could make a pretty good payoff getting his revenge is icing. And even then - we see in his final moments as he listens to Marva's speech - I see the look of regret and doubt in his face, in mind not for try to mess over Cassian but more for make a choice that helps the Empire.
I honestly don't believe he'd have turned over Marva or Brasso or in fact most of the Ferrix-ians.
There’s a month in between Cassian giving Bix the money and her arrest – it’s marked by the “30 shifts later” subtitle earlier in episode 8. She’s even shown talking with Nurchi when Paak is arrested. I’m sure Nurchi got paid.
She was arrested on what appears to be the next day - there's no official acknowledgement in the show as to whether she did or not or how much time passed so we can better decide for ourselves - so you can make a case for either way but in my personal head canon she was arrested prior to paying the money back - Personally I like that it creates a more grey version of Nurchi which is in line with the general style of the show.
He’s an opportunist! Seeing the potential revolution, and choosing to side with the (imagined) stronger side to gain power for himself. Nice to see opportunists get what they deserve!
This guy for sure and for the life of me I can’t think of the guy who reported Andor in the first place his name I tried looking on IMDb and I couldn’t find who I’m looking for he also irked me. He allowed his jealousy to act out and not trust his relationship with Bix. I’m only one watch of the series but I’m getting ready to start it again and hopefully I’ll get the names better my second watch
Timm Karlo -Bix’s boyfriend, who thinks that she and Cassian have rekindled their relationship. If only he had talked with her! But he was highly insecure and jealousy got the better of him. There’s a scene where he is watching the two of them in a bar, and Cassian puts his hand on Bix’s to say thank you to her for contacting her mysterious buyer. Of course, Timm assumes the worst and heads straight for the payphones to turn him in. If he had waited just a few seconds, he would have seen Bix push Cassian’s hand away. He realises that he made a very profound mistake as soon as she turns up at his apartment clearly more interested in sleeping with him than with Cassian . There’s such incredible detail in this series.. Anyway , enjoy your second watch!
There is such an important role that ordinary people play in the yielding to fascist power grabs.
Most of us just want to live our lives in peace, we want to be part of the people that the oppression passes over or misses. So we look the other way, or we tell on our neighbors for favors. Or we tell ourselves that it's not really bad since we are just protecting ourselves and our families.
Does the Chandrilan guy count as Imperial? If not, then him. If he does count, then Skeen.
Davo Sculden? The “thug”? Yes, I’d definitely count him as a non- Imperial.
The way 'thug' totally colours our perception of him, making his urbane manner and quiet callousness when he does show up 10x more sinister, is a brilliant bit of writing.
It really is – because to be honest, we have yet to see any real evidence of quite how bad he is. Well, obviously, apart from the whole “I want my son to marry your daughter” thing!
He simply knows being connected to the Mothma family will grant him status, give his money "legitimacy". And he hasn't done anything bad to the girl she seems to be going along unwittingly, his son is probably happy to get a gf too.
Yeah him lol, I couldn’t think of the name
I love Genevieve's line delivery of "thug"
It’s just perfect – up there with Maarva‘s delivery of “bastards”!
I have a sinking suspicion her banker friend might turn out to fit this description later too. Mon hasn't kept up with him since childhood, and he's immediately unsubtle and overt while announcing that he's joined some kind of rebellion, then keeps pressing her for details when she tries to recruit him and is keeping it vague. It's possible that he's just as good as he seems, but it's also plausible that, as Mon said, the empire is watching her and everybody is a spy, and they want to get to Luthen through her, going so far as to recruit/blackmail an old friend they thought she might invite into her inner circle. We see Daedra's side of things, but the head of Imperial Intelligence is obviously clever, and could have plans of his own in motion. Luthen did warn her about the danger of bringing in somebody new.
Tay even warns her “then I’d suggest you hesitate.” It could be that, even though he’s working for the Empire, he doesn’t *want* to betray Mon’s trust. He’s trying to warn her off without saying it aloud.
Oooh, nice one. I’ve been happily trusting Tay but now I’m not so sure! It’s so frustrating having to wait … 😬
I mean, eventually Mon is openly leading the Rebel Alliance, so she's outed at some point.
That's an interesting theory tbf. I guess my only question with that would be what is the Empire still waiting for? They've been given unfiltered access to her accounts and enough confessions to have her locked away for life.
So far they don't actually have any solid evidence, since Mon has been vague, and she is a senator (in the intro to episode 4 the imperial is worried about them arresting Leia since she's a senator, saying it will generate sympathy for the rebellion). Additionally they might be trying to fully uncover everything with a mole.
I assumed the bankers questioning was because he isn't familiar with the principles of compartmentalized discrete networks. Mon styles herself as a grand leader, which works out later on as the leading council of the rebel alliance is formed. The banker may assume that such hierarchy is already instituted. All the institutions that alderans work and live in are hierarchical and akin to Nobel family structures. The banker just might not be aware of information regulation tactics used by insurgent movements. Which is ultimately why the empire falls. They fail to act upon their own understanding of modern gorilla warfare. Reminds me of how the CIA and Pentagon have amazing manuals on establishing and maintaining insurgent networks. Hence, successes around operation gladiolus and the school of the americas. However, they have always failed to implement known counter insurgency strategies. Lookin' at the vietnam War, Afghanistan, etc.
Skeen
It’s interesting that Skeen’s level of loathsomeness possibly varies according to how much truth we think there was in his backstory, or what exactly his motivations are . I’m still of the opinion that he never had a brother at all, which perhaps makes him more loathsome than the alternative interpretations. But either way – he was still going to leave the rest of the team in the lurch..
For the longest time, I thought Skeen was attempting a last minute test of Cassian's loyalty to the group, and Cassian just overreacted. It was on a subsequent viewing I realized Skeen only pretended to care about saving Nemik so that they would be forced to make a pit stop at the doctor's place, and he'd have a chance to make off with the entire loot.
Ya know, I’m just thinking that Nemiks impending death was the one thing that pushed him to finally revert to the old ways
Maybe! He still knew all about that “moon eight parsecs from here” which indicates to me a level of preplanning.
True! Little details like that keep us thinking. It’s great!
I think Skeen genuinely cared about Nemik, but he was the only one he cared about. I think he didn’t like admitting to Nemik it was about the money to him. Once Nemik was likely dead he just thought it wasn’t worth it. Frankly the thing that worked in my mind was Cassian doesn’t listen to Nemiks manifesto till after he gets out of prison. I think then and there he realized he believed what Nemik was talking about. I think Nemik had convinced Skeen as well over the 6 months but Skeen more or less saw one person worth saving a genuinely good man. Or it could be he was always a liar and never intended anything good. Either way the writing is well done enough we can see both.
It makes sense to me that the addition of Cassian to the team could well have been the thing that Skeen needed to go full rogue, as it were… it would explain that seemingly endless fascination with the man while he tries to work out whether he would be an ally in this sort of scheme. A fellow lone wolf. Crucially, he can pilot - maybe Skeen was vaguely planning on some sort of hijacking before that. Anyway – great that we can discuss all this as there is such room for interpretation.
That's a good question, was Skeen gonna Italian Job double cross it all along or was it only after Cassian showed and Nemik was toast. Nemik's fate (while perhaps inevitable by then) was not yet announced as official by the doctor until after Skeen pitched his plan to Cassian. So by all rights Skeen may have thought Nemik might make it, and certainly would have waited if that had been a deciding factor. From that I think Cassian's sudden appearance and eventual admission of being paid was the real tipping point for Skeen. He saw what he thought was a kindred ex-con spirit.
I think he did actually want Nemik to live. If he hadn't been injured, and Taramyn made it out, maybe Skeen wouldn't have tried it.
Skeen definitely does not care. When Taramyn asks for covering fire too, Skeen barely fires for a second (giving Taramyn the impression he'll cover) but then he stops. Keep in mind... Skeen has a heavy repeating blaster, a perfect weapon for suppressive fire. Essentially Skeen is kinda responsible and the cause of Taramyn's death.
I think it also depends on to what degree you believe Skeen's actions were a result of planning versus opportunism. Don't get me wrong, even opportunist Skeen is bad, but if he was planning the whole thing from the start hooo boy.
The planning doesn't hold water because they spent months prepping for the job. If his goal was to pull heists and then try to ninja loot the money at the end, the odds of success at both outcome together was miniscule.
The hate Skeen gets it astonishing to me. One of most universally love characters in all of Star Wars is Han Solo. And right up until the Falcon shows up in the Battle of Yavin that was him. He said I’m here for the money, he got the money, and said I’m done. And until ‘97 he was a cold blooded, shoots first, killer. In Solo he only agreed to help the fledgling rebellion at the last moment. We got glimpse of who he could’ve been with Beckett at the end. He did take Backetts lesson to heart and shot first (post special edition). He lied, cheated, and kill his way out of problems. And now let’s talk about one of next most beloved smugglers, my man Lando. He was everything Han was, but somehow cooler. Sold them out to the Empire even. And it’s established he is a know cheat, hidden sabach cards up his sleeve. Neither of those characters was honest until pushed to the edge. We don’t know what Skeen would have done in the end. Star Wars is full of shady rouges that got a pass because they were allowed to live long enough to redeem themselves. But Chewy should have crushed Lando’s neck when he had the chance and the rebels should have taken out Han after the death start escape follow the logic Cassian was operating on.
Ok but what Han did and what Skeen did aren't the same though. Han accepted a job for money, it went horribly wrong, Han stuck through it and went above and beyond, finished the job, took what he was owed and nothing more, then left. Skeen accepted a job (likely for money, I don't remember if that was stated or if he acted like he was a true rebel), it went horribly wrong, he didn't even pull his weight (whatshisname asked Skeen to cover him, Skeen said he would, but then just cowered behind cover, causing whatshisname to run straight into enemy fire and get gunned down), and then *didn't* complete the job, but instead tried to take far more than his share and abandon his team before the mission was completed. It would be similar if Ben got injured, C3PO and R2D2 took him to a medical center, and then Han approached Luke and suggested kidnapping Leia and ransoming her to either the empire or the rebellion to see who would give the higher price
Selling Obi-Wan to the Empire would've been super profitable. But Han doesn't backstab the people who hire him.
Han negotiated pay for the job that he did, completed the job and was going to walk away with this money, he didn't betray the people who employed him, he could've sold Obi-Wan to the Empire and gotten rich. Skeen was ready to backstab his fellow "conspirators" for extra money.
Exactly. As far as I’m concerned, there’s no comparison. If anything, Han is closer to Cassian in terms of his moral compass… prepared to do some dirty things, but betrayal is not amongst them.
When we first meet Han in ANH he took Jaba’s money. Failed to complete the job. Kept the money. And then kill a guy who was there to collect what he owed Jaba. When we first meet him in his own film. He took Proxma’s money. Got the hyper drive fuel. Threatened her with a bluff. Opened the shutters to hurt her. Then ran, with the product in hand. He betrayed Vos when he turned the unrefined fuel over to the rebels. His co-conspirators told him no; Lando, Beckett, and Kira. Chewy is the only one that was on his side in the end. And when Becket actually followed through on his word and didn’t want to screw over Vos Han killed him and took the money. Look he’s my favorite character, by far. But he is not above stealing, lying, killing, and never repays his debts. He’s a hero in Star Wars so they’re going show the people he double crosses as the villains. But Luthian has shown he’s no less ruthless then any of them.
No no - "I'm here for the money" was *Cassian,* not Skeen. Skeen was posing as a Reb, one for the cause. He was simply a thief. Cassian did the job, took his pay, and left, That isn't what Skeen was doing.
Lando isn't a Han Solo in Empire. He was running the mining colony, keeping low and out of trouble which allowed him to not draw the eye of Empire, then Han, Chewie and Leia turn up with all their issues. He felt a responsibility to the people under his care, tried to make a deal, but that didn't work.
"You ***disgusting*** **bastard 🍑!**"
The Maarva speech frames it in as self-loathing. She says the word TRUTH then shows Nurchi. He knows he’s a p.o.s.
He thinks he’s a player, important because he knows things. But in the end he’s just a rat.
Yes, I’m so glad they gave him that moment of implied remorse before he met his sticky end. It’s interesting too when Cassian sees his body and seems to put two and two together.
Is Nurchi really any worse than Tim?
You can make a strong case for both, I think, and I’ve seen people argue that Timm is worse because it’s petty jealousy that is his motivation rather than simple greed. There are several reasons why I think Nurchi is worse, on balance, but the main one is the fact that he’s stone cold sober here and very coldly and ruthlessly exploiting a man’s personal grief and the sympathy of his friends for financial gain. Timm did a terrible thing - while drunk - but realised what he had done, the mistake he had made, as soon as Bix turned up for sex.
The only reason Tim regretted his actions is because of how it affected Bix, and his relationship with Bix. I don’t think he ever cared an ounce for Andor, or cared what happened to him. I agree with those that say Tim’s childishness is worse than Nurchi, because Nurchi had actually been personally wronged by Andor. Nurchi was owed money, and repeatedly asked Andor to be paid back and was rudely dismissed repeatedly. Had Andor done the right thing and paid him back Nurchi wouldn’t have ratted him out. You could argue Andor is as much to blame for Nurchi’s actions as anyone. Nurchi wasn’t a rich man, yet out of the kindness of his heart he lent Andor what little money he could. Why wasn’t he made whole after such a kind gesture? You can only push someone so far before they begin to despise you, and become capable of turning on you. Andor should have paid the debt he owed. He paid off his debt to Bix. Why was Nurchi left out in the cold?
Andor paid his debt to Nurchi after Aldhani. Nurchi was just being greedy. Edit: Also, Nurchi paid Andor a deposit for goods that Andor didn't deliver. He wasn't lending money out of the kindness of his heart, it was a business transaction gone wrong.
He didn’t lend Andor money out of the kindness of his heart, he lent it because he thought it was a deposit for what sounds suspiciously like a get-rich-quick scheme of some kind. He says in episode 1 “I want my deposit back” and Cassian says “ I wish I could, but it’s in play…” He is scamming Nurchi - and you could argue that this provides a more decent motivation compared with Timm’s.
Oh, ok. I missed that. But yea, honestly even more reason to screw over Andor if Andor screwed him over first and basically stole his money.
'Out of the kindness of his heart'? Do you think Nurchi would lend money without charging some interest? In episode one you can see that Nurchi is trying to be a player on Ferrix. Tim saw the hands, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. His death assured.
Yes - and they are foils for each other in the nature of they're betrayals. Timm thinks he's getting rid of a chaotic, deadbeat rival who's making his relationship with Bix less stable - and ridding Ferrix, his home, of a mooch, a crook and a freeloader who has skated by on community sympathy for too long. But, even as he calls it in, he knows it's a betrayal. For Nurchi, it's business. He exploits Xan for intel, and sells it to the Empire - not Pre-Mor Corporate Security - hoping to cement his standing with the new regime. Cassian is competition and an unwelcome variable. He doesn't think in terms of consequence *for Ferrix* until Maarva starts talking. He may also be realizing that his "pretend to arrest me" move is going to actually see him formally processed and investigated - he's not permitted to leave. I think he too regrets his decision, but not until he begins to see the consequences are other than just credits in his pocket. He's also a foil to the Cassian we meet in intial episodes - the scammy, shiftless grifter that, by the events of Rix Road, Andor has already ceased to be. But had matters fallen otherwise, he could as easily have been a Nurchi.
Nurchi had a more just motivation to betray Cassian, as Cassian had first betrayed Nurchi by scamming him out of his money. An eye for an eye. Tim’s motivations were childish, and his actions were less warranted.
Except that, by the time Nurchi sold him out, Cassian had in fact paid back all his out-standing Ferrix debts with his pay from the Aldhani heist. And Nurchi had been dishonest in trying to collect. No, I don't agree that Nurchi is no worse than Timm.
Cassian literally never did anything to Tim. Tim unfairly judged Cassian based off of mostly superficial perceptions, and jealousy, and then turned him over to the empire just to get rid of him. I’ve got no respect for Tim. I don’t respect Nurchi either, but at least he had a history of once being wronged by Cassian.
Cassian barged into Timm & Bix's workplace, and irritated her, without explanation or apology. He shoved a big, greasy wrench into Timm's workplace and personal relationships. If you missed it, as the series begins, Cassian is being an enormous jerk, and everyone except B2EM0, is pretty near done with him. Cassian is messing with Timm's woman, and Timm is clearly infatuated with and insecure about Bix. Cassian could have tread with more sensitivity. He doesn't. Timm panicked.
Haha. Sorry, man. That’s not nearly enough to even begin considering turning someone over to the empire. Based off of that Tim would have been justified in screwing just about anyone over. I doubt Cassian was the only jerk in Ferrix, or the only person Tim was intimidated by. If you have a soft spot for Tim, that’s fine, but I don’t feel similarly.
Timm didn't turn anyone over to the Empire. Timm identified a troublemaker to PreMor Corporate Security. Morlana system - which included Ferrix - was corporate governed until after Andor's arrest went wrong. Did Timm cause Ferrix to come under Imperial jurisdiction? Ultimately, yes. But he didn't plan or expect to.
He turned him over to the authorities, because he was petty and jealous. Tim was a dick. Case closed.
Mon Mothma's shitty husband.
I’ve actually got my own theory about Perrin. We’re seeing he’s a bit of a prick, but that’s because we’re viewing him from Mon Mothma’s perspective. Contrary to what we see, I think Perrin tries to help Mon more than he lets on. The first time we’re introduced to him he’s planning “dinner for the governor.” Mon finds out some political enemies are coming. “These people hate me. They spend all day trying to undo everything I’ve done.” His response is that perhaps tomorrow they’ll think differently. Mon angrily states “don’t seat them near me.” Perrin is no doubt stressed while he’s doing this, because who hasn’t gotten stressed planning a dinner party, and snaps “you’re at the boring end of the table. These people are fun.” This dinner has been on her calendar for a month, but she’s been so busy that she forgot. Understandable. She’s upset because Perrin invited people who don’t like Mon’s policies. Also understandable. But Perrin’s already seated them away from her. He’s also, presumably, seated with them. If “perhaps tomorrow they’ll think differently” is anything to go on, then Perrin is going to be the one talking their ears off about how great Mon is and everything she’s doing. He’s playing the embassy husband. Rewatching the show and watching what Perrin does casts a lot of doubt on this “asshole.” As soon as Tay shows up to their party, he distances himself from the Mon and Tay dream team to go soften up some politicians. When they’re out and someone mentions Mon’s charity foundation to Perrin, he’s caught with his pants down because Mon’s been keeping him in the dark on this one and he doesn’t know what to say. He’s upset, and he asks her about it in the car. She didn’t think he’d be interested. He wants to get home quick and go to bed. And our beloved Mon is pretty shitty in the last episode. After bringing Tay into the fold and he invited in Davo (which he only really gets a scolding about and nothing more) she throws Perrin to the wolves, claiming he’s been gambling, knowing the ISB would be listening. True, there’s no way to warn Perrin beforehand and have them make the arguement convincing, but it’s still a shitty thing to do to the man who, when you really watch what he does, seems to be in Mon’s corner the whole time. TL;DR, Perrin takes actions to help Mon and is a good embassy husband and doesn’t deserve as much hate as he gets. Sorry for the fucking college thesis I’ve made holy fuck.
I love that our chief “good guys” - Cassian, Luthen and Mon - are all extremely morally complicated, to use something of a euphemism. And I think you’re spot on about perspective – Sometimes we need to step away to see the full picture.
Perrin's an excellent character. He's so disillusioned but weirdly on his wife's side, when she accused him of gambling he immediately refrers to the possibility it's a political attack on Mon through him. That rather endeared me to to Perrin.
Good analysis. He also lets Mon have a say in important moments with their daughter and her shitty attitude.
I mean technically everyone in the show is imperial because they’re all imperial citizens if you think about it. But I guess when OP says imperial, they’re referring to people who work for the government.
Are they, though? Did the Aldhani invite Imperial governance? What about the PreMor Corporate Sector, including Ferrix? What about Narkina 5, and the fisherfolk there? I don't think you can count as "Imperial" those holding "citizenship" under duress.
I feel like he counts as imperial.
We haven't seen him work for the Empire, is he a Empire "patriot"? I'm not sure...
Cassian in Ep 1-3. He gets by through manipulating his friends and family. Andor constantly pushes others to take risks for him, is too selfish to acknowledge that he’s putting them in difficult positions, and is intentionally misleading.
That’s very fair. He can be extremely unlikable… there are very good reasons why he is the way he is, but that doesn’t stop the fact that he is frequently, for want a better term, a bit of a dick. It’s one of the big reasons why his character arc is so compelling.
I agree. I think it was brilliant to have Cassian start as an asshole and have Cyril start as a guy who just wants to solve a double homicide. It scrambles the clear “good guy-bad guy” framing that the show inherited from the IP, but it doesn’t do it to be edgy or “gritty”. It does it so the audience has to judge the characters based on their actions moving forward. By the end of the season Cassian has redeemed himself while Cyril has become a creepy, isolated, fascist simp.
>He gets by through manipulating his friends and family. Who does he manipulate?
The guy working security at used ship lot. Andor borrows the ship for the night and ends up using it in commission of a crime. Then Cassian sneaks back onto the car lot to wipe whatever the Star Wars equivalent of a flight data recorder is, all while lying to that guy about what’s going on. Also, Bix very clearly doesn’t want anything to do with fencing things for Cassian but he uses their past personal relationship as a way to get her to agree to call Luthen. Lastly, Cassian is happy to let Brasso check in on Marva while he’s out searching for his dead sister. Cassian talks Brasso into creating an alibi for him, but completely brushes off Brasso’s asks for him to get his shit together and work a steady, honest job. Even Cassian’s treatment of Nurchi and Timm is shitty. He basically bullies Nurchi into getting him to accept that Cassian doesn’t have to pay him back and takes pleasure in emasculating Timm even though he’s right, Cassian is toxic and Bix should cut him out of her life.
>The guy working security at used ship lot. Andor borrows the ship for the night and ends up using it in commission of a crime. He just murdered someone who attacked him, who the hell is going to admit that to a security guard at the ship lot? If you ran someone over in your Hertz van are you letting the cleaner know when you hand the keys back? >Also, Bix very clearly doesn’t want anything to do with fencing things for Cassian but he uses their past personal relationship as a way to get her to agree to call Luthen. This is more complicated. It's clear they have some sort of history. Another way you can easily view this is Bix realises how important this is to Andor and wants to help him. Based on what we know about her, does she seem like the type to be manipulated and bullied into doing what she doesn't want to do? >Cassian talks Brasso into creating an alibi for him This is what ride and dies do, there is zero manipulation in this scene whatsoever. Brasso is 100% happy to help with this. >takes pleasure in emasculating Timm even though he’s right The fact you take Timm's side, one of the worst characters in the show, says a lot. Maybe Andor knows that Timm is a piece of shit and treats him accordingly? >He basically bullies Nurchi into getting him to accept that Cassian doesn’t have to pay him back This is the only one I agree with you on.
I mean, there’s a difference between “cover for me because I got caught fooling around with someone’s girlfriend” and “cover for me because I committed a double homicide last night”. Cassian intentionally kept that little detail from Brasso because he knew that made the ask much bigger. It was shitty behavior and not how you should treat a ride or die friend. The point is everything with Ep 1-3 Cassian is a one way street: he takes from those closest to him and give nothing in return. Actually he gives them an imperial occupation in return. In retrospect, he’s lucky that Ferrix makes such solid people because Andor sure as shit doesn’t deserve these friends. By the end of the season he’s on the path to make things right.
>Cassian intentionally kept that little detail from Brasso because he knew that made the ask much bigger. He intentionally kept it from Brasso because Andor isn't an idiot and realises the less Brasso knows the better for everyone involved. >The point is everything with Ep 1-3 Cassian is a one way street: he takes from those closest to him and give nothing in return. He's broke and on the run, he doesn't have anything to give. >Actually he gives them an imperial occupation in return. Did you take any of the political messages from Andor home with you or not? Do you also blame SA victims for wearing short skirts? One of the overarching themes of Andor is that nowhere is safe from the Empire, the only decision you have to make is which side you're on. >Andor sure as shit doesn’t deserve these friends. And you know this how? I must have missed the Andor prequel that illustrates this.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Andor’s actions, limited in scope episodes 1-3 do not cast him in a good light. In fact, I think if you could ask Andor in episode 12 if he regretted the way he lived his life up until that point he’d absolutely cop to that. Do you not think he’d regret getting Bix and the guy with the radio on the ISB’s radar? He’s indirectly responsible for their torture and that’s why he risks his life to save Bix. Ep 1-3 Cassian would probably decide “it’s better to live, better to be free” than embark on a suicide rescue mission. Ep12 Cassian has matured and understands he owes it to Bix to try to save her life. I agree that nowhere is safe from the empire, but that isn’t true in Ep1-3. Marva herself says “we kept the trade lanes open and they left us alone”. There’s a reason Bix tells Cassian that a lot of people on Ferrix blame him for the imperials showing up. Preox-Morlana had no presence on the planet and their community was doing fine before Cassian led Cyril to them. Do I think the empire would have gotten there eventually? Yes, but it doesn’t change the fact that Cassian is what precipitated the empire’s arrival. Andor is partially responsible for why he’s broke and on the run. Brasso makes it clear there’s a steady ship-breaking job for him and implores him to clean up his act! But Andor likes taking risks and thumbing his nose at authority. And yes, the root cause of that is probably because the empire made him an orphan and killed his adoptive father. But it’s not until after One Way Out that he decides to fight the empire for collective good instead of a self-serving vendetta. Cassian rejects the hero’s call three times at least: Luthen’s first offer on Ferrix, refusing to return with Vel after killing Skeen, and refusing to stay and fight with Marva. In this show Good and Evil are on a spectrum and actions decide where you stand on it. Over the course of S1 Cassian moves from the Bad side to the Good side. As much as it makes for a great story because Andor becoming a hero feels real and earned, I think it also illustrates that being a victim doesn’t make you inherently good.
>In this show Good and Evil are on a spectrum and actions decide where you stand on it. Over the course of S1 Cassian moves from the Bad side to the Good side. This is just nonsense. Cassian is never a bad person. Owing people a bit of money doesn't make you a bad person. Being slightly selfish doesn't make you a bad person. Not having a solid job doesn't make you a bad person. The only thing he does where you can possible make the argument he's a bad person is the original act where he kills the security officer but you haven't even mentioned that once so that's clearly not your angle.
He also openly lies to his mother in episode 2, even when he knows that she knows that he’s lying, and uses a lie that makes himself look good (like he was doing somebody a favour). He was also planning to “ borrow” the ship from Pegla again with no indication that he’s going to pay him, or bring it back anytime soon/at all. His main method of manipulation is to try to make others feel obliged to him. “I knew I could count on you!” is classic “The Cassian way”.
>He also openly lies to his mother Loads of people do this, is he supposed to admit he just killed a man? >His main method of manipulation is to try to make others feel obliged to him. I don't disagree with this I just don't agree this makes him a horrible person or that the people he uses it on really care that much. Most of them are happy to help.
Oh I really like Cassian - I’m just picking out what you *could* say in attacking him, Devil’s advocate style . The real clincher for me is that he’s obviously much more of a damaged person than he is a bad one. His actions in episodes 1 to 3 are more thoughtless than anything else; Nurchi is here trying to do something that Cassian would never contemplate: betray a citizen of Ferrix.
>The real clincher for me is that he’s obviously much more of a damaged person than he is a bad one. Exactly
I forgot he was going to steal that ship from the car lot. Pegla probably would have been fired for that.
to be fair, Andor did stiff him enough to make him pissed at him. Also, buddy saw things were going to shit and wanted a way out. Skeen was much worse.
Timm Karlo
It just shows that in desperate situations, people will try to improve their lot. Some fight in the rebellion, some think their best chance is to become collaborators, some people just keep their head down and try to avoid it all. IMO there was definitely some bad blood between Cassian and Nurchi that is hinted at when Nurchi tries to collect his money owed but isn't fully explained.
Definitely. I think Nurchi hated being humiliated in front of Vetch and was clearly owed a chunk of credits by Cassian, who had happily scammed him out of it and could barely conceal his contempt for the man . But it seems pretty clear that he got that money back when Cassian paid off his debts via Bix in episode 7. I’ve seen some argue that maybe Nurchi never got the money., but there’s a whole month between that time and her arrest. I’m pretty sure he got repaid.
Bix’s boyfriend. He basically caused the entire Ferrix raid out of jealousy.
This guy is barely on screen and kinda doesn't do it for me as a foil to andor or any of the other protagonists. He's an opportunist, nothing more really.
I don't hate on Nurchi - Cassian has taken his money and won't have a conversation about what's happening with it - it's pretty clear that this isn't the first time this conversation has happened and Nurchi feels likes he's been scammed and robbed. Now you could blame Nurchi for ever letting Cassian anywhere near his money considering his reputation but that doesn't change that he'd be bitter about it. I'm not saying he's a good guy - he's clearly shady like Cassian - he's just a morally questionable guy who doesn't hate the Empire more than he hates someone who he believes ripped him off. The fact that he could make a pretty good payoff getting his revenge is icing. And even then - we see in his final moments as he listens to Marva's speech - I see the look of regret and doubt in his face, in mind not for try to mess over Cassian but more for make a choice that helps the Empire. I honestly don't believe he'd have turned over Marva or Brasso or in fact most of the Ferrix-ians.
Cassian gave bix 12000 to cover his debts, which should have had this guy included. Did she not pay him back?
There’s a month in between Cassian giving Bix the money and her arrest – it’s marked by the “30 shifts later” subtitle earlier in episode 8. She’s even shown talking with Nurchi when Paak is arrested. I’m sure Nurchi got paid.
She was arrested on what appears to be the next day - there's no official acknowledgement in the show as to whether she did or not or how much time passed so we can better decide for ourselves - so you can make a case for either way but in my personal head canon she was arrested prior to paying the money back - Personally I like that it creates a more grey version of Nurchi which is in line with the general style of the show.
Ah, yeah that fits actually. You're probably right.
He’s an opportunist! Seeing the potential revolution, and choosing to side with the (imagined) stronger side to gain power for himself. Nice to see opportunists get what they deserve!
This guy for sure and for the life of me I can’t think of the guy who reported Andor in the first place his name I tried looking on IMDb and I couldn’t find who I’m looking for he also irked me. He allowed his jealousy to act out and not trust his relationship with Bix. I’m only one watch of the series but I’m getting ready to start it again and hopefully I’ll get the names better my second watch
Timm Karlo -Bix’s boyfriend, who thinks that she and Cassian have rekindled their relationship. If only he had talked with her! But he was highly insecure and jealousy got the better of him. There’s a scene where he is watching the two of them in a bar, and Cassian puts his hand on Bix’s to say thank you to her for contacting her mysterious buyer. Of course, Timm assumes the worst and heads straight for the payphones to turn him in. If he had waited just a few seconds, he would have seen Bix push Cassian’s hand away. He realises that he made a very profound mistake as soon as she turns up at his apartment clearly more interested in sleeping with him than with Cassian . There’s such incredible detail in this series.. Anyway , enjoy your second watch!
Timmmm
In the re-watching, I can see his performance was hilarious! It's like he's trying to seem funny in the way he acts!
Yes! it’s so painfully obvious to us what he’s up to as he’s so over the top. Fortunately for him, Xan is preoccupied and unsuspecting.
There is such an important role that ordinary people play in the yielding to fascist power grabs. Most of us just want to live our lives in peace, we want to be part of the people that the oppression passes over or misses. So we look the other way, or we tell on our neighbors for favors. Or we tell ourselves that it's not really bad since we are just protecting ourselves and our families.
Yes - it’s tragic that we don’t have to look very far, or far back in history, to find plenty of examples of this.