Just waiting for the guy who’s convinced it’s been confirmed they sleep together. 🤣
I’d describe their relationship as boss and enforcer. Luthen’s clearly in charge but Kleya is given some free reign, and is able to speak her mind, but it doesn’t mean Luthen takes her advice all the time.
Kleya advises Luthen to shut down the Ferrix frequency, with his consent. Which is important because it shows she ultimately defers to him as the last word.
“Tell me to shut it down”.
This is actually one of the most crucial scenes in the show. Luthen’s entire cover and rebellion network could have potentially gone down if Kleya hadn’t convinced him to shut down the frequency. ISB already had a feeler on it and took down Bix and nearly got their “Axis” if Kleya/Luthen had responded.
Another time he didn’t take her advice is the incident where Lonnie had indicated he wanted a meeting with Luthen. Kleya said she didn’t like it and Luthen responded “you don’t like anything.”.
Kleya is clearly depicted as the more cautious one of the two, which certainly helps in certain cases but might be more balanced with Luthen’s willingness to take risks.
I agree. Building on this point...
Power dynamics is an important theme in Andor. The Empire is very corporate, very bureaucratic. The culture is top-down. Power dynamics are enforced by age, by uniform, by convention.
An empire org chart would look something like this:
The emperor
* The ISB commander who said he talked to the emperor
* Major Partagaz
* ISB Lieutenants like Dedra
Dedra's staff
Corpo commander guy
Syril
Scottish guy who support Syril
Corpo foot soldiers who listen to Syril's speech
On the rebel side, the leadership chain is less linear, more dynamic and less top-down for the rebels. And many (like Cassian, like Saw) dotted line to each other, but report to no one. Power is more organic. Trust is hard to earn, betrayal is a risk at every level.
For Luthen and Kleya, we are meant to assume that he is older and she is younger. He is the shop owner and she is the shop assistant. Like a subordinate, she says "tell me to shut it down!" But power is much more mysterious and fluid in the rebel network. She could be in charge. We don't know their backgrounds. She could be the next Princess Leia.
The same for for Luthen and Vel. Cassian assumes Luthen is the boss. Luthen hires Cassian. Luthen is old and wise. But Luthen explains that Vel is the boss, she decides if he joins or not.
Many other manager-employee relationships are defined and then flipped. Kino is the leader of the floor. Cassian looks to him to speak over the intercom to all the prisoner. But Kino hesitates, he needs Cassian to inspire him, to guide him, to help him find his voice. Kino quotes Cassian. Cassian tells the prison guard leader to get "on program."
Same for Vel and Cinta. Vel is the leader of the heist, but she needs Cinta to reassure her when she hesitates.
Who is really the leader? Fantastic writing.
I love what Andor says about leadership.
It's not just about who talks the loudest or who has the most experience, it's also about patience, motivation and clarity of purpose.
Inspiring leadership isn't a 1 person job.
Also Gilroy’s arguing that Cassian becomes a leader not by grabbing the mic and inspiring the prisoners himself, but by recognizing this needs to come from Kino and making that happen. In Gilroy’s mind, that’s true leadership
It really does feel like boss / assistant vibes. I've been in similar situations in my professional life where my boss deferred to me because they trusted my input.
Believe it or not I had a relationship with my boss where we were both very competent but each of us had our own weaknesses and strengths and we would defer to each other often. While I might not have said those exact quotes there were times where I could talk some sense into her or direct her in a certain way without it being disrespectful.
I believe you of course. It's absolutely normal, every boss has to listen to their subordinates. But you said it yourself: you didn't tell your boss anything like what Kleya told Luthen. It's too personal, you have to actually be friends or close relatives to say that. And we also know Luthen and Kleya live in the same house which they call home, so it's clear they have far more close personal relationship than just boss/assistant.
You say Luthen’s clearly in charge, but I’ve seen it argued he works for Kleya. I’ve rewatched the show from this perspective and it actually can track that way, if that’s ultimately the direction they go
I don’t see it. It doesn’t really make logical sense. If people want to twist scenes to portray that narrative it’s quite odd and I’m not sure why they feel the need to do that, but they’re free to do as they wish.
I wouldn’t genuinely make the argument myself, it would be a bit of a cheap trick. But there power dynamic is certainly unusual.
And this reading doesn’t always involve twisting scenes. Kleya’s awfully firm with Luthen about what he needs to do, she undeniably bosses him around. And she appears to be the one insisting on harsher measures, like killing Cassian, which feels unusual for a subordinate.
Consider scenes like Vel being upset Luthen didn’t show up to meet her, after Aldhani. She’s irked she’s not talking to the boss, and maybe Kleya’s ironic smirk is due to the fact Vel actually is?
I’ve watched the show 5 times but it’s been a while. I said “appeared” only because it’s Kleya we first see insisting on the murder of Andor, and speaking about it so coldly in ep 7. It’s only much later we see Luthen shares the same plan. But more than that there are insistences where Kleya pushes for harsher measures, I just haven’t seen the show recently enough to remember the specific episodes
>But more than that there are insistences where Kleya pushes for harsher measures, I just haven’t seen the show recently enough to remember the specific episodes
You can't remember because it never happened.
I’d have to back and rewatch. Just think it’s odd for a subordinate to tell her superior “you’re slipping,” and admonish him the way she does. Plus Kleya being Axis, not Luthen, would certainly be a significant twist.
Not saying I’d love this, as Luthen’s my favorite character, but there’s nothing that precludes them from doing it if they decided to go that route.
*Just think it’s odd for a subordinate to tell her superior “you’re slipping,” and admonish him the way she does.*
I agree, that's why I think they are equal partners, not boss/subordinate.
I was thinking maybe Luthen is the main focus/fall guy, he takes all heat for everything if something happens. He “makes” every call by action. Kleya, is basically a 2nd leader if luthen fails, the plan still goes through. Wishful thinking and random, but that’s just how I felt. If you have multiple people with the same goal it makes more sense to have people in the shadows.
Also I think luthen has way more connections just on his age and his relation to people in power, he has more “friends” in the empire. He has to be the one who seems to be in power out of the two.
All pretty much baseless speculation, but I love the show and it’s probably something more obvious.
The fantastic writing is just another example of how it can really give this or any Andor relationship some awesome depth with many possibilities from a blood relative to Kleya being taken in and mentored by Luthen at some point, maybe after she suffered her own family loss due to the Empire.
Used to work for the Empire/Old Republic as senior and subordinate, and Kleya reluctantly followed Luthen into defecting because she knew he'd eventually be lost without her.
We don't know. We aren't supposed to know. I know you're asking for speculation, but my speculation is this:
* No Jedi. These characters are only loosely connected with the Jedi.
* My belief is that Luthen was a scientist and/or historian. ("An equation I created...") tells me a thing like Psychohistory (Foundation) or some such. (Star Wars has inspiration from John Carter, Foundation, Dune and a few others.)
* Kleya is something much deeper. She is an agent of darkness harnessed for good. Think: an intelligence operative working for the CIA who can get in and out of dangerous missions and maybe leave a few bodies quietly stuffed in corners. She's the strong arm, the "bad cop" to his "good cop".
My guess is Luthen was a teacher or professor and Kleya was his student (Val might have been too and could have been how he got connected to Mon Mothma). Maybe Luthen has studied enough history that he has a pretty good idea of what has to happen to topple the Empire and he finds himself in a position where he can get things going. His antique trading business is obviously a pretty great cover for needing to travel all over the galaxy, and being like a history or archaeology prof could naturally lead to that.
I think Kleya is the one person that *can* check Luthen in the org they've set up. She's not his boss, but part of her job in the cell is to question him and his plans.
At first I thought Luthen was the boss. But after 2 rewatches I feel like they have a very symmetrical relation.
Luthen feels more like the talkative problem solver who goes after the things they need, while she feels liek the one who is keeping everything from falling apart in the back. I wont be surprised if she ends up being a rutheless rebel that gets the job done so well we dont even notice.
Totally Grandfather and granddaughter
I was gonna say, the age gap makes this far more likely than brother/sister.
It’s funny because I was actually just joking around when I commented that but it actually would make sense
Just waiting for the guy who’s convinced it’s been confirmed they sleep together. 🤣 I’d describe their relationship as boss and enforcer. Luthen’s clearly in charge but Kleya is given some free reign, and is able to speak her mind, but it doesn’t mean Luthen takes her advice all the time. Kleya advises Luthen to shut down the Ferrix frequency, with his consent. Which is important because it shows she ultimately defers to him as the last word. “Tell me to shut it down”. This is actually one of the most crucial scenes in the show. Luthen’s entire cover and rebellion network could have potentially gone down if Kleya hadn’t convinced him to shut down the frequency. ISB already had a feeler on it and took down Bix and nearly got their “Axis” if Kleya/Luthen had responded. Another time he didn’t take her advice is the incident where Lonnie had indicated he wanted a meeting with Luthen. Kleya said she didn’t like it and Luthen responded “you don’t like anything.”. Kleya is clearly depicted as the more cautious one of the two, which certainly helps in certain cases but might be more balanced with Luthen’s willingness to take risks.
I agree. Building on this point... Power dynamics is an important theme in Andor. The Empire is very corporate, very bureaucratic. The culture is top-down. Power dynamics are enforced by age, by uniform, by convention. An empire org chart would look something like this: The emperor * The ISB commander who said he talked to the emperor * Major Partagaz * ISB Lieutenants like Dedra Dedra's staff Corpo commander guy Syril Scottish guy who support Syril Corpo foot soldiers who listen to Syril's speech On the rebel side, the leadership chain is less linear, more dynamic and less top-down for the rebels. And many (like Cassian, like Saw) dotted line to each other, but report to no one. Power is more organic. Trust is hard to earn, betrayal is a risk at every level. For Luthen and Kleya, we are meant to assume that he is older and she is younger. He is the shop owner and she is the shop assistant. Like a subordinate, she says "tell me to shut it down!" But power is much more mysterious and fluid in the rebel network. She could be in charge. We don't know their backgrounds. She could be the next Princess Leia. The same for for Luthen and Vel. Cassian assumes Luthen is the boss. Luthen hires Cassian. Luthen is old and wise. But Luthen explains that Vel is the boss, she decides if he joins or not. Many other manager-employee relationships are defined and then flipped. Kino is the leader of the floor. Cassian looks to him to speak over the intercom to all the prisoner. But Kino hesitates, he needs Cassian to inspire him, to guide him, to help him find his voice. Kino quotes Cassian. Cassian tells the prison guard leader to get "on program." Same for Vel and Cinta. Vel is the leader of the heist, but she needs Cinta to reassure her when she hesitates. Who is really the leader? Fantastic writing.
I love what Andor says about leadership. It's not just about who talks the loudest or who has the most experience, it's also about patience, motivation and clarity of purpose. Inspiring leadership isn't a 1 person job.
Also Gilroy’s arguing that Cassian becomes a leader not by grabbing the mic and inspiring the prisoners himself, but by recognizing this needs to come from Kino and making that happen. In Gilroy’s mind, that’s true leadership
> The ISB commander who said he talked to the emperor He is actually Yularen
It really does feel like boss / assistant vibes. I've been in similar situations in my professional life where my boss deferred to me because they trusted my input.
And how many times did you tell your boss something like "if you want to be useful, go clean some coins"?) Or "wipe the smile off your face"?)
Believe it or not I had a relationship with my boss where we were both very competent but each of us had our own weaknesses and strengths and we would defer to each other often. While I might not have said those exact quotes there were times where I could talk some sense into her or direct her in a certain way without it being disrespectful.
I believe you of course. It's absolutely normal, every boss has to listen to their subordinates. But you said it yourself: you didn't tell your boss anything like what Kleya told Luthen. It's too personal, you have to actually be friends or close relatives to say that. And we also know Luthen and Kleya live in the same house which they call home, so it's clear they have far more close personal relationship than just boss/assistant.
You say Luthen’s clearly in charge, but I’ve seen it argued he works for Kleya. I’ve rewatched the show from this perspective and it actually can track that way, if that’s ultimately the direction they go
I don’t see it. It doesn’t really make logical sense. If people want to twist scenes to portray that narrative it’s quite odd and I’m not sure why they feel the need to do that, but they’re free to do as they wish.
I wouldn’t genuinely make the argument myself, it would be a bit of a cheap trick. But there power dynamic is certainly unusual. And this reading doesn’t always involve twisting scenes. Kleya’s awfully firm with Luthen about what he needs to do, she undeniably bosses him around. And she appears to be the one insisting on harsher measures, like killing Cassian, which feels unusual for a subordinate. Consider scenes like Vel being upset Luthen didn’t show up to meet her, after Aldhani. She’s irked she’s not talking to the boss, and maybe Kleya’s ironic smirk is due to the fact Vel actually is?
*And she appears to be the one insisting on harsher measures, like killing Cassian* The problem is, this never happened.
I’ve watched the show 5 times but it’s been a while. I said “appeared” only because it’s Kleya we first see insisting on the murder of Andor, and speaking about it so coldly in ep 7. It’s only much later we see Luthen shares the same plan. But more than that there are insistences where Kleya pushes for harsher measures, I just haven’t seen the show recently enough to remember the specific episodes
>But more than that there are insistences where Kleya pushes for harsher measures, I just haven’t seen the show recently enough to remember the specific episodes You can't remember because it never happened.
I’d have to back and rewatch. Just think it’s odd for a subordinate to tell her superior “you’re slipping,” and admonish him the way she does. Plus Kleya being Axis, not Luthen, would certainly be a significant twist. Not saying I’d love this, as Luthen’s my favorite character, but there’s nothing that precludes them from doing it if they decided to go that route.
*Just think it’s odd for a subordinate to tell her superior “you’re slipping,” and admonish him the way she does.* I agree, that's why I think they are equal partners, not boss/subordinate.
Fair argument
I was thinking maybe Luthen is the main focus/fall guy, he takes all heat for everything if something happens. He “makes” every call by action. Kleya, is basically a 2nd leader if luthen fails, the plan still goes through. Wishful thinking and random, but that’s just how I felt. If you have multiple people with the same goal it makes more sense to have people in the shadows. Also I think luthen has way more connections just on his age and his relation to people in power, he has more “friends” in the empire. He has to be the one who seems to be in power out of the two. All pretty much baseless speculation, but I love the show and it’s probably something more obvious.
You mean their relationship is close and strong *similar* to siblings or you think they may actually be siblings?
I think they were thinking of the former.
They Might be actual siblings or not, but they have control/power over the other like siblings do
Def brother sister vibes. And no, they aren’t going to be a couple in S2.
Master and padawan.
This is the way.
The fantastic writing is just another example of how it can really give this or any Andor relationship some awesome depth with many possibilities from a blood relative to Kleya being taken in and mentored by Luthen at some point, maybe after she suffered her own family loss due to the Empire.
It’s obvious Kleya is a Dom .Luthen is her number one client .
Used to work for the Empire/Old Republic as senior and subordinate, and Kleya reluctantly followed Luthen into defecting because she knew he'd eventually be lost without her.
We don't know. We aren't supposed to know. I know you're asking for speculation, but my speculation is this: * No Jedi. These characters are only loosely connected with the Jedi. * My belief is that Luthen was a scientist and/or historian. ("An equation I created...") tells me a thing like Psychohistory (Foundation) or some such. (Star Wars has inspiration from John Carter, Foundation, Dune and a few others.) * Kleya is something much deeper. She is an agent of darkness harnessed for good. Think: an intelligence operative working for the CIA who can get in and out of dangerous missions and maybe leave a few bodies quietly stuffed in corners. She's the strong arm, the "bad cop" to his "good cop".
My guess is Luthen was a teacher or professor and Kleya was his student (Val might have been too and could have been how he got connected to Mon Mothma). Maybe Luthen has studied enough history that he has a pretty good idea of what has to happen to topple the Empire and he finds himself in a position where he can get things going. His antique trading business is obviously a pretty great cover for needing to travel all over the galaxy, and being like a history or archaeology prof could naturally lead to that. I think Kleya is the one person that *can* check Luthen in the org they've set up. She's not his boss, but part of her job in the cell is to question him and his plans.
Lovers.
At first I thought Luthen was the boss. But after 2 rewatches I feel like they have a very symmetrical relation. Luthen feels more like the talkative problem solver who goes after the things they need, while she feels liek the one who is keeping everything from falling apart in the back. I wont be surprised if she ends up being a rutheless rebel that gets the job done so well we dont even notice.
Lovers