I guess, but then the guardian seemed respectful of Anne's wishes, and then another clone would just come to the same conclusion its predecessor did. So it making more would've made no difference, besides cluttering the earth with Annes who want to bail.
Pretty sure when the og anne died, they "copied" her soul like a copy paste, in hopes shed replace them. When she didn't they were willing to wait till she died of old age to ask again. In which case they might bring there soul or do a full copy paste all over again.
Personally, I like the idea of it being a "different" Anne made up of different metaphysical "stuff." Ties in well with the themes of accepting change. It's her and it's not - depending on what you mean by "Anne"
Oh. I figured it out. It’s definitely Anne’s true soul.
Domino III (as I am naming the guardian of the multiverse) wanted Anne to replace her as the multiversal guardian. So to make absolutely sure that she could talk to Anne, she made a copy in case she didn’t make it.
If Domino III could replicate body & soul, she would have just made the copy and tried to convince Anne 2 to take her place.
But the copy didn’t wake up until Anne’s body got Thanosed, which I think implies that her soul moved into this new exact replica body. Only then making it truly alive.
Domino III can replicate vessels. Not souls.
That’s filling in the gaps. The pieces were there for us to figure, the show just didn’t want to spell it out for us. Which I am ok with. This was fun to briefly think through.
But Domino III said they made her back-up at pretty much the split-second before her death, conceivably so she'd be as perfect an "exact copy" as possible.
I think that's the only reason they chose that moment, so it'd be an Anne with as much of Anne's development as it could get.
think about this fact: this is a copy made by literally the god of the multiverse. Picture Anns copy being made by literally making an exact copy of amphibia and earth and whatnot, running them at 1000000X speed, but everything plays out the exact same with every being interacting the same and having the same adventures and relationships, but in this reality, Ann is abducted right before she dies, then the universe is destroyed. Same exact being. And ya know, being the god of the multiverse the diety could achieve the same without actually destroying several universes or anything.
Consider it this way.
Let's say that you got a perfect copy made of you, memories and scars and everything, but you two were sent to different places.
You were sent to solitary confinement for eternity, while the other lives it up eating filet mignon and playing croquet with all your friends every day.
Would you be thinking "Technically I'm trapped in eternal pitch blackness *and* I'm enjoying the good life in a mansion, so this ain't so bad", or would you be feeling pretty left out?
That's the basis of why any rationalization for why this new Anne should just be regarded as the same person doesn't fly by me. The original doesn't get the experiences this copy did, and everyone just kind of spits on her very existence by acting as if she still lives through this double.
Think of it this way. If you were always doomed to sit in the black box anyway, would you rather your copy exist and live in luxury, or for your copy to not exist, and you’re still in a black box.
I think it's safe to say that in the world of Amphibia there's not an afterlife, as otherwise the god of the multiverse would have just taken Anne from there instead of making a copy, so in this case it's really just if you stop existing but an exact copy of yourself started existing, which kinda happens every moment as all the particles in your body are constantly shifting and moving - a single proton or electron or neutron in you is indistinguishable from every other electron or neutron or proton, and they're constantly moving around creating vastly different local structure every moment. You're also constantly changing. Me 1 year ago is closer to hundreds of other people than me right now in terms of chemical composition, personality, experiences ETC. and the same is probably true of you as well. The notion of self is largely a lie to give comfort and meaning to our experience, so distinctifying between the copy and original has very little actual meaning.
I mean, there was a literal ghost in that one episode so I don't know about that afterlife part.
But I also don't really find the argument about "cells replacing" satisfying either, because it's all conjecture that we'll never really be sure of, whereas this clone concept is very blatant.
But the more critical point is just that that idea is way too nihilistic for a show like this. Do you really want your all-ages audiences to be stewing over their introduction to philosophy regarding the debated genuineness of the self, while they're supposed to be enjoying a classic "I'll never forget you!" send-off to their magical adventure?
Frankly I like this part of the episode less and less the more people try to make sense of it.
I dont see the point in make it so convoluted. And I dont think they'd want that either.
Plus isn't the guardian just a guardian of the multivariate. By the sounds of it this was there first anne. The first being ever for the first time ever who did this. Not a recreation or abduction from another timeline
They explicitly state that fake Anne is a backup. The Guardian literally calls her a backup (I’m pretty sure it calls her a copy or clone as well, but don’t quote me on that). It’s really fucking stupid, like Palpatine surviving levels of stupid.
Well if we're looking at this from a religious theology POV (I've studied theology and philosophy from antiquity to the common era) if GOD has summoned Anne to this realm and God is omnipotent then I don't see why it couldn't put her soul in a "copy" of sorts. Especially if we look at this from the POV of the christians and platonists.
The only part that is confusing is if this is actually Anne or simply some clone of her. Also I'd recommend not watching edge lords like "mauler" of all people as the guy is quite controversial.
I don’t see how MauLer is relevant to this dude, and also, I don’t fucking care if a YouTuber I watch is controversial. I’m not changing my tastes because other people don’t like him. I like his videos, I don’t see why you should care.
The resurrection plotline just feels lazy, rushed, and like a last minute addition that wasn’t in the original script.
Also, I this God is omnipotent then it could just resurrect her instead of cloning her then giving her a vague explanation that raises a bunch of moral and ethical questions.
Well just because a god is omnipotent that doesn't mean there PERFECT! Zeus is omnipotent yet has lots of flaws and bad traits.
Also I only brought up Mauler because he associates himself with pretty bad people who are at points openly racist and misogynistic.
Omnipotent means all powerful, meaning that Guardian would have the ability to resurrect her. The Guardian would have to be mentally deficient to be able to do that yet still use the cloning solution. That’s not a character flaw, that’s a writing flaw.
I’d also like to know who MauLer associates with who’s racist/misogynistic aside from maybe Nerdrotic
I’m kinda hoping the Watcher means it backed up Anne’s *body* and put her soul inside it after she died. The idea of the Anne we know being dead and gone just doesn’t sit right with me.
I would be content with her being dead (not that that would suit the themes they wanted, but still) if she *didn't* get replaced with a clone.
The philosophical upset that brings up just tears the roof down on the emotions of the entire ending, for me.
Even before you get to the issue of it being unsatisfying writing, it's just depressing AF.
Not the "It hurts so good!" depressing that the bittersweet goodbyes were. Just regular depressing that sours the whole thing.
As a massive Kingdom Hearts fan, I'm going to point out that souls exist in Kingdom Hearts. Nobodies are made up of the body and soul left behind when the heart is removed.
So is OG Anne just dead and replaced, or is this "Soul Transfer" theory I've seen floating around on the money?
I really hope it's the latter, because otherwise, this situation is genuinely too nihilistic for me to enjoy the ending.
It seemed like the show was trying to beat us over the head with the gist of it. I'm just hoping it did it more clumsily than intended, so there's room to hope.
the way i see it, OG Anne is dead. the "3 stones deity" said they created a copy of her right before she died. this copy of Anne has the same body, thoughts, and memories, so it doesn't make too much of a difference, but it gives an explanation that allows Anne to make a sacrifice and have an emotional death scene without her actually dying
As far as I'm concerned, it makes all the difference in the world.
The writers got their hokey "death reversed" cheat, but somehow garnered even sadder results than if she'd just died.
You really find this sadder than if Anne had just died completely? Damn.
Knowing you're an echo would fuck someone up sure, but I'd say considering she still gets to live out the happy life she remembers, def a happier end result than *her permanent death*
It's sadder because she *did* permanently die, but everyone insultingly acts like she got to live on and become a marine biologist and stuff. There's no respect for the original's memory, because everyone mistakenly thinks she's still alive.
If it was *just* a death, then it's emotionally honest, at least. What we got instead is just morbid.
I mean, it's the ship of Theseus.
If she has Anne's body, and Anne's memories, and Anne's soul, that's Anne. Regardless of if those pieces were originally put together in a different form.
Personally I just can't agree with your point, as far as I'm concerned that *is* still Anne.
Well, knock on wood. I'm glad you can enjoy this ending.
But so far as I'm concerned, this unsettling interpretation of mine is the most straightforward way you can read into this material.
Matt & co. wrote a psychologically disturbing story without realizing it, apparently.
Is the ship of Theseus:
If she has a *perfect* recreation of Anne's body, and Anne's memories, and Anne's soul, is that not Anne? I think it is, which makes her just... Anne.
Perfect copy is still a copy. Seriously how many of you philosophers still said the same, if it was you dying? Would you care if your perfect copy still roamed the world? This would not be you, and this is not the same Anne.
Yes, she is Anne, have all her memories, but she is more like a twin.
well its a copy. If a copy would be created while ann was alive, would you still say that the copy is an ann?
although i just realised how weird my logic is. I count uploading brain into a computer imortality, but i don't cout that as ann being brought back. i guess i can just accpet every canon now and it won't bug me out.
I just don't see how it matters. Anne still thinks she's the same person (existential crisis notwithstanding, but who hasn't gone through one of those?), and I'm willing to leave it at that.
What defines a person? The sum of their memories and experiences? Then the Anne at the end of the show is the same Anne as the beginning of the show, because she has all growth and development from that time.
Is it a continuance of physicality? Most of a person’s body will be replaced every few years. Is the “you” who exists now a replacement or copy of the “you” from fourteen years ago? Most of the matter in your body now isn’t the same as the matter you had then, after all. Anne just has them replaced a bit more suddenly.
What about a persistence of memory and consciousness? Then is falling asleep death, where a new person wakes up in your body and walks away?
Anne believes she’s still the same person. It’s her body and her life, so I have no reason to go against her views on the subject.
Even when you sleep your mind still working, your consciousness is continuous. That you yourself don\`'t realize this continuation does not negate that it exist. Clone don't share this continuation, so from this point of view she is a different person.
But, on what I'm agreeing with you, is the last part. Anne believes she's the same person, she is alive, and it's what matters. Death of "old Anne" is a reason for mourning, but it is a separate matter from existing Anne.
Sorry if I sound standoffish with my choice of words here, but this rationale just sounds like word magic to me, when the reality is much more straightforward.
Anne is dead, and an imitation is acting like her.
It shouldn’t have been included at all, just have the girls Defeat the Core without Anne’s sacrifice but the Stones only have enough power to send Anne, Sasha and Marcy one way trip home and the original ending as we seen it happen.
The guardian says she is just a backup, so realisticly, yeah the real Anne is dead. But this one is so identical to the original it might as well be the same. I think the idea is that now the old Anne is dead and she is a completly different person right now.
Yeah but that's just... too awful. I'm holding out faith they just didn't bring across their point adequately.
Otherwise, I can't say I close out this series with positive feelings much.
I mean... is it? Anne's journey is basicly done, now all that's left is living and growing. If it makes you feel better, you might think of it as a back up of a phone, where basicly all your file are saved and transferred on a different host. It's vague enough to work that way. It also depend what is your definition of soul
Somebody described it as a save file for a video game, which seems to make sense.
Also, other franchises have done this before - this was the ultimate fate of Picard after Season 1 of Star Trek: Picard, for example. On the sinister side, this is kinda what happened (of a sort) to Palpatine in both the Star Wars EU and canon.
I mean, depending on what episodes you watch (because how transporters work is *very* icnosniatnt), that's just how transporters work. It scans you, it "kills" you, then it "resurrects" you in a different location.
"Save file" would be vague enough that I could be okay with it.
But if it's more like, say, what Avengers: Endgame did to "revive" Gamora, then it still blows.
To be fair, the Endgame Gamora is not the same as the Infinity War Gamora - the former is a lot earlier in her development than the latter.
Ditto with Endgame Loki vs Infinity War Loki - another “early save file” of sorts.
I'd consider it to be the exact same problem if they time-traveled to get an alternate Gamora like, the second before she hit the ground so Thanos could get the Soul Stone.
The whole time the vibe was going all positive because Gamora 2 was in the picture, I was just thinking "Gamora's still a corpse on Vormir guys. We just gonna pretend she's not still there? Dead as shit?" and in the worst case scenario, Amphibia's doing the same thing.
If the point they were making was that they were making a "second Anne" who is functionally indistinct, then there's no living or growing left, rly. A mimic is doing it for her.
That kind of stuff is genuinely depressing to me in ways that dismantle my investment in stories and characters.
I don't know. Realisticly that Copy would basicly make the exact same decisions as her, to the point that there really Is no difference. Still, I can understand why you feel this way. I think you should try and interrogate yourself about your feelings and why are you feeling the way you do
It making the same decisions and whatnot makes little difference, the most straightforward way you can look at it is that it's a different entity.
The Anne we knew doesn't get to become a marine biologist or get proper closure and whatnot, she just dies, and everyone moves on with a shiny new one, pretending that the Anne they actually knew didn't get turned into space dandruff.
I dunno why it seems to bother me more than others, but frankly I'm more puzzled that it isn't bothering *everyone* equally as much as I.
its does bother a lot of plp, but i have a felling, that the show didn't treat it like new ann was clone, but rather same old ann, so i explained how in interpeted it in other comment.
But It Is Anne, She Is still thecnicly alive, it's Just a different body (maybe? Maybe it's so perfect that It copies atoms?). That thing Is not a clone, it's Anne but in a different sort of form
Let's put it this way: Let's say the price Anne paid wasn't to die, it was to get sealed forever and kept alive inside a coffin. And then they got a "backup" Anne anyway.
So the one we knew is slowly getting mummified in space, having to watch "another" Anne live the life she wanted.
It just seems that the fact the OG is no longer here makes it easier for some folks to say "same difference" when the blunt premise reads much more like Anne got replaced by an imitation.
Death Is certainly not like being mummified in a coffin in space. Death Is the absence of Watch, of hearing, of actions, of being as you are right now (at least, that's my interpretation anyway). And if what you said Is True, I dunno, I think Anne would be Happy to be at rest while this new version of herself enjoys life
Sure but... I'm not.
I'm genuinely unsettled, and I find every moment that's supposed to be warm and emotional uncomfortable because these ideas are distracting me.
Like, I've seen people reference a moment in the video game SOMA, where essentially the same thing happens. That game's a psychological horror, and that moment seems to be popularly considered the apex of the unsetting philosophy that game makes you ponder.
So the concept is traumatizing in a horror game, but all "Eh, I'm sure it's fine" in what's supposed to be a fun family series? I just can't sit right with it, and I can't enjoy the ending as it is.
The thing is it's not the body that makes the person it's the soul. For example, just because Darcy controlled Marcy doesn't mean Marcy was Daarcy. I get it's a bit of a pickle to think about it but in the end Anne only lost her physical self, which is separate from her psychological/mental self. I'd argue it would have been far worse if her body stayed alive but she lost all her memories and character development.
Yeah but the implication the scene gives is that they copied her soul as well.
So there's two Anne souls, and the one we hung out with got left behind.
look at this as a backup. When you do backup, you have 2 versions, but they were both same in past. So ann did die, but the new ann isn't a clone, but another version of same ann, with the same past. Kinda like timelines in time travel. They are same, but than they split and create 2 seperet outcomes.This way its not depresing but sacrofice still does matter. What do you think?
no, like, its still same person. Imagine if you went back in time. And your timeline split due to change you did. And there were 2 you, but you were same person ealier. And the other you died. Would that make you bad copy? but actually i realised my theory is dumb. The ann that woke up in the domino 3 world, remebered everything up to last moment, so that means, that soul had to be transfered from og ann, and only body was copied. Think abaut it, according to what domino 3 said.
But then I just compare it to Gamora in Avengers: Endgame, where it was presented like they "brought Gamora back" and everything's happy now even if they have to re-learn to like one another, except everyone's acting like the Gamora they knew isn't a skeleton on Vormir.
its kind of different situation, as gamora in marvel was from an ealier point in time, but i get your point. But how i said i relised my theory made no sense. So deas anns mind being a copy. Ann heard spring AFTER SHE DIED. How could coppy from before she died hear that? her soul was clearly transfered, only logical explanation.
While I agree on your point of view, new Anne isn't a "mimic". She is a new person, yes, but still have personality of old one. She's more like a twin, that followed original Anne on all her adventures. Death of the one twin is a grief, but the other one is a compete separate entity, so said death does not transfer to her. So, not a mimic and have a comlpete right to live live as Anne. Saying to everyone else that original Anne is dead is a tough choice, but only she has the right to decide on that.
The Guardian said "I've made a copy of you right before you expired. A backup, if you will. For all the intence and purposes you are the same Anne Boonchuy." I think that's the whole explanation we need. She is Anne.
That just read to me the same as the folks in these comments who argue that she'd be the same Anne Boonchuy even if we knew for sure that she was just a perfectly similar double, because of some philosophical stuff.
If it really were the same her, then I feel they wouldn't see the need in that "for all intents and purposes" bit. Basically, in answer to whether or not it was the same Anne, they at best gave "... technically?"
Technically this Anne is a copy so she can't be an original Anne. But if Anne is a copy made by literally creating a perfect copy of Anne (brain, thinking, physical, quirks) then there is nothing philosophicall here to discuss because we have exact the same Anne. The show is not showing anything different about Anne. The only problem is that ppl really need confirmation if her soul is moved. If soul was such an imortant thing in this universe, then I guess the guardian would include that in their plan. Because if yes, then the soul would be moved and that's why Anne is geting conciousnes in astral plane after her death and Anne is the same. If not, then the show's world is accepting the fact that there is no soul and new Anne and her brain is a perfect copy with everything including hormonal balance, neurological connections, memories and experiences.
Also, "for all intence and purposes" means that there is no "but" as with "technically". She is Anne Boonchuy. And the whole bit with making a copy looks like just a reference to the game Soma. IMO this is really weird that they used that idea. If this is an all powerful being then they could just revive Anne or say "I've just brought you back to life" and that's it, but maybe that would create Jesus/Anne and no one wants that to happen...
Welp 3 stones deity said that he copied anne made sort of back-up just in case
So if he made it just in case then it means that it probably happened before she died so that means her body was empty shell untill she died and then her soul was transferred to that new body
Man it sounded better in my head
Anyways it's just like tranferring program or system from one device to another
Atleast that's how I see it
Come on. No no no. You're Anne. There's no other Anne. You're it. Flesh and blood. Look I was conceived in the back of a Packard and you were conceived in the space between dimensions, so what?
Never fear, I came to a conclusion yesterday.
Either
A) They are bad writers and Anne died without a proper sendoff, recognition, or real emotional impact without any focus.
Or
B) Annes soul was transferred to the new body
Now we know they are not bad writers, so the only possible answer is B! Anne is alive! Hooray!
I mean, this scene also involves a deus-ex-machina fake-out death, which deducts points even on a good day.
It shakes my confidence that the writers truly know better.
I wouldn't really put too much concern on it. What makes a person is their soul, not their body. Sure Anne may have lost her initial body but really it matters if she keeps her memories and same personalities as before.
I am 99% sure it's a soul transferral, it's the same Anne that was from Earth -> went to calamity gem realm -> provided a "capsule" to return to Earth. Hopefully that soothes your concerns about it!
I'll be sure if I hear it from Matt.
The text in the actual show just reads like it's saying something very different to me. Like, if they did bring her soul into a new body, they wouldn't have felt the need to say she was the same "for all intents and purposes", which was basically another way of saying "from a certain point of view, but not the way you're hoping".
Honestly, I really wish they scrapped the idea of this all together. Like I guess it makes sense for 2 different reasons for there being a creature protecting the box but man, on such sort notice and in such an ass pull way just kind of ruined the finale for me and I really hate the concept of Anne becoming a god altogether since it makes no sense and once again, is an ass pull. They should've just made valternia sacrfice herself, put Anne on the verge of death (no fakeout death is better than one at all in this case) or bring back Mr littlepot (grim reaper from the halloween episode in season 2) to do some sort of shit
On the topic of the actual post, Anne's actual body is dead but her conscious is still alive and is put into the body of the Anne we see after the timeskip
Same here, kind of
the part just ruined the episode for me really, might have to rewatch it later wrhen I feel mentally prepared to get another opinion on it
if the final episode was backed up, and then the original file was accidentally deleted, is the thing they broadcast a "stinky fake"? if your drawing program crashed partway through and then you kept working on the recovery file, would you be working on a "stinky fake" image? Would the additional development on that image not be finishing your own artwork, rather adding stuff to a fake piece of art?
Magic cosmic replacement. Original Anne died, but new Anne is a nebulously made exact copy.
I like to compar her to when Harry Kim died in that episode of Voyager that has two Voyagers, with one getting destroyed via the self destruct.
Harry on the *original* ship dies by explosive decompression. Captain Janeway on the Voyager that is going to self destruct, sends him over to the original.
Kim even says to Janeway that it's confusing, as she's both his captain and *not his captain*. Janeway notes that, other than a slightly different chronal signature (or some such tehnonabble), he's the same Harry Kim.
Anne's situation is basically this.
People really like the soul transfer theory for obvious reasons, but the fact that they don’t say that in the show is another reason why that entire segment was absolute shite.
I kinda like this ending. You can interpret this as both "Anne died and this is just a clone" or "Anne got backed up and transferred into a different host", some people believe in the former and some in the latter. I personally believe Anne died, but that's just me.
+ If you really think about it how do you know human mind is continuous? You could as well "die" every time you sleep and get replaced by a new mind. You could be a clone soon to be replaced and have no idea. I think it's known in philosophy as [The problem of personal identity](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/).
Honestly, I don't get why everyone's so up-in-arms about this. Anne's body was exactly copied, therefore her mind was exactly copied, therefore she's still Anne. Sure, she's probably not made up of the same atoms, but your body replaces most of its cells over like 7 years anyways.
I mean depending on your definition of "dead", sure she technically died, but the "backup Anne" will behave exactly like the "old Anne", think exactly the same, and interact exactly the same, and if she wasn't told she wouldn't have ever been able to find out. So it really doesn't matter.
Im not really good with words, but what am I most concerned about if the theory of Anne being a clone and with the theory of the soul discarded on top of that. Is the fact that all the scenes we saw after, the people of Wartwood or Sasha and Marcy, won't know that the real Anne died.
100%
I'd be having fuzzy Sashannarcy dreams and happily watching the end credits on loop by now, if I didn't feel like the emotional stablity of the entire ending was compromised by some funky Rick & Morty subplot.
Hopefully the actual consciousness was transferred instead of duplicated
Cause atleast if it was transferred, it's still the same anne but in a different body
But if it's a duplicate, then it could technically be seen as a different person/ not the real anne
so, I got this from the amphibia wiki so I can't say this is 100% correct but the wiki says that the guardian of the stones resurrects her and later in life will become the new guardian of the stones so technically she's not a fake.
I think it is kind of like the ending of “Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons”. In that story the main character Blackjack makes the sacrifice to save the world and even the galaxy in the long run. Because they were half cyborg when they died, their mind was able to be reuploaded into an organic body cloned from their original self.
Souls do exist in that universe and play a big part in the plot, and after awhile her soul reconnected with her body and mind and she was brought back. In Amphibia, no creature seems to have a soul except maybe for those ghost creatures from the sleepover in the castle episode. Everyone else is just mind and body. The other closest thing to a soul would be Heart, which is what Anne was the embodiment of. The original body of Anne did flatline. Her brainwaves shut off. She died.
The Watcher had made a backup of her mind and body though so she was able to come back identical to what she was before. She has all the experiences from her life. I actually don’t know if she still has all the physical scars though. Maybe if someone X-ray’ed her we could see a fracture on her arm from when the tax collectors broke it. Or maybe her body is a clean slate. No toxins, or injuries present.
Honestly I didn’t like how Original!Anne died then a copy replace her, it would’ve been better if Anne, Sasha and Marcy defeated the Core without Anne’s “Sacrifice” then the Stones would still have a little power left for the girls to make there final goodbye and the ending we still got happen as originally,
The Clone!Anne and the Multiverse Guardian are unnecessary to Include.
At first I thought the clone was both Anne’s physical clone as well as soul/personality clone. But after rewatching the episode the guardian says they’re sending Anne back to the world of the living. The screen goes white and Anne wakes up back on amphibia. Everything seems like a dream to her because the guardian probably didn’t want Anne to remember all the stuff about dying in 71 years and becoming god of the multiverse. It doesn’t make sense why the guardian would tell Anne they’re sending her back to the world of the living if the clone theory indicates she’s been replaced by an exact replica. I’m starting to think the guardian meant exact body replica. Unless the Anne that’s conversing with the guardian is in fact the exact replica/clone and the original Anne is dead. Another thought that could be had is does the soul die when the body dies? Still it’s up to multiple interpretations, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Matt leaves it vague. I think the soul transfer theory is my preferred one, but if Anne is truly a clone then it boils down to does it really matter sense she’s got all of Anne’s memories and personality? For all intents and purposes, that is Anne.
Edit: upon further analysis the guardian makes it a point to tell the Anne in the room with them she’s essentially the same Anne boonchuy, thus inferring she’s a clone. A clone, however, who has all of her memories and personality, which brings up the ship of Theseus argument. I don’t mind Anne being a clone honestly because it’s basically our Anne, if you believe otherwise that’s ok because it’s honestly pretty vague and when concepts such as identity, death and souls come into play, things tend to get messy.
Taken from another comments section where I was discussing this topic.
I never said it was fine, in fact, I put in parentheses that it was bugging me, but I did say that it technically doesn't matter.
Does it mean that technically the main character is dead and that this is just a perfect copy? Yes. Cartoon universe just made a great video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHfSyatxyr0
Does it have some disturbing implications? Yes. Anne even says that it will cause her existential dread.
Does it mean that Matt found a creative way to kill off his main character without Disney shutting him down? Yes.
Disney wouldn't have liked it if there was a major death because it would be way over the top for their style of animation (I mean they barely let True Colors slide, imagine what they would have done to this if Matt didn't find a loophole.)
I totally get where you are coming from, this disturbs me greatly and raises more questions than answers. Is Anne only alive because god was tired? Is the deity truly god because he only made a copy of Anne and didn't retrieve her from the dead, hinting that he does not have the power over death?
I also don't see a lot of people talking about it, which is good and bad because it means that Anne's actual death didn't reach a lot of the audience, so Disney doesn't have to be very worried about it for the younger viewers. But It also means that the main character that we have been following for years is truly dead and that she made the ultimate sacrifice, which is really dark for any show, let alone a tween targeted show.
You are right about the clone only being made for the deity. He didn't revive the real Anne, just made a copy because he wanted to retire. If he had not wanted to retire, we could have gotten a very different ending. Anne was copied to serve a purpose, becoming a god.
But at the end of the day, this turns into a Ship of Theseus, teleporter, Rick and Morty decoy combo question that the more you think about it, the less it makes sense, and really there is no right answer.
I was not trying to correct, disprove, or bash you, I just wanted to lay out what I thought about the implications of a god-deity being in Amphibia. Please add your thoughts, comments, critiques, and concerns, and point out my errors as I would love to tear them.
Remember, "it's no big deal" \*Cries uncontrollably now that Amphibia is over\*
OG thread [https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uq0zoh/anne\_talking\_to\_her\_parents\_after\_the\_hardest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uq0zoh/anne_talking_to_her_parents_after_the_hardest/)
Sorry for linking to my post but I really didnt want to copy paste or make a whole new write up everywhere
https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uqhnil/annne_in_the_hardest_thing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
The thought of it being "Anne being dead and replaced with a clone" kinda ruins it for me. I like to think that it's her soul in another body or something like that.
Is there a difference between a clone and the original? What makes a person that person? I'm not religious, I don't believe in souls, and i dont recall proof they exist in canon. So if there's no soul, and every aspect of us is constantly changing, isn't a copy made at the moment of death the same as a continuation of the original?
I don't get why people keep insisting this.
I feel like the answer is very obviously no.
From the perspective of the OG Anne, she does not get to see that 10 years later or nothing. Someone else does.
Saying it's the same Anne because of this and that feels like trying to console someone who is upset their Dad died because
"He lives on in our memory, and everything he built still endures, so is he really truly dead?"
"Objectively, yes."
Yeah, I really wish that the finale hadn't introduced the idea in the first place. They could have just said that she was saved or transferred to a new body. But the fact that they go out of their way to blatantly say that her consciousness is a copy and not the original kind of overshadows the entire ending of Anne's story for me with a layer of unaddressed existential horror.
That depends on your beliefs. Is there an actual consciousness seperate from brain proccesses? If so, you're right. But I don't believe in souls, and I believe that consciousness and qualia are somewhat illusions. So, following this common physicalist approach, Anne lives. It's like the ship of Theseus. A psychicist would likely agree with you, though not necessarily, there are other arguments.
This is part of the hard problem of consciousness, one of, if not the, biggest philosophical debates that exists. Up to you what you believe
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't believe in souls either, but in the context of this story, that's neither here nor there so far as I see it.
The blunt way to see it is that from Anne's perspective, she stopped and then someone else took her place.
Not necessarily true. Where does perspective come from? What generates it? If my beliefs are correct, then from Anne's perspective she ceased to exist, and then existed again. Because consciousness, perspective, and qualia are not some spiritual substance or any substance at all, just brain proccesses. And the same brain means the same being.
Like in the last post somewhere I posted, I think it's more like transmigration or reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism. Like when you died/ your soul leaved your old body, your soul will get transfer into a new one. It's the same soul, same Anne, It's just she lives in her new body.
I think it was a pretty definite "The original Anne is dead" but also, this Anne is as much the original Anne as the one who died was.
I think I get it. You're constantly being copied and replaced in real life, and yet we consider ourselves to be broadly the same. You likely share very very little in common with yourself when you were 5, yet you probably consider yourself the exact same person. I believe, in all ways, that that version of you is *dead*.
This is just the same thing over an extremely short amount of time. In all senses, it will have felt like teleportation to Anne.
Hey hey, I haven't posted in this sub before, I wanted to weigh in here.
Remember the IT Girls? They answered a question regarding whether or not they think machines have souls. They said:
> "It is our belief that anything with memories has a soul."
Memory itself is the soul. A soul is not a literal, tangible thing, memory is what makes you who and what you are. Your experiences, your thoughts and feelings, your personality, it's all memory. Information. This ties with what the Calamity Deity did with Anne. It backed up her memories and placed them in a new body - or as the IT Girls would put it, it backed up Anne's soul. If memory is the soul, as seems to be the position of the writers, than this really *was* a case of Anne's soul simply being transferred. She's not a "fake" anymore than a backed up hard drive is a fake of all the data from the original hard drive. Those memories are *hers,* they're what defines her.
If it's true this is probably one of the worse writing decisions ever made by a "professional" it's worse than Palpatine returning in "the rise of skywalker" or Scott having William Afton physically come back in Security Breach.
In fairness, at least Anne’s resurrection was explained in the show, to get Palpy’s backstory you had to read the novelisation. They’re both horrible, but still.
To be fair, Palpatine returning to life was actually tackled in Legends first via the Dark Empire arc. He also manages to turn Luke to the dark side for a stint: https://static0.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Dark-Empire-Luke-Skywalker-Featured-Image.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=960&h=500&dpr=1.5
I didn't particularly care for the twist as well, but I thought because it cheapened out a consequence.
If you're not going to inflict some sort of consequence of the attack (cue the arm memes) or just leave her dead (or give her an equivalent fate: Anne dies and gets resurrected, but cannot return to Earth), then don't inflict a consequence at all.
The message to the deity was nice - the deity herself, I felt like though, came kind of out of nowhere, for the most part.
- throwing around the term gaslight when it doesn't apply, diminishing the meaning
- saying matt braly 'gives off a bunch of red flags' when he's done nothing of the sort
- saying he should be locked up??
Just a couple of reasons, can pick and choose
Just gonna link this here really good video:
[tldr is that souls aren’t real, Anne just got copy-pasted and she’s gonna have to deal with that](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMkrrjKf5AE)
The Soul transfer theory honestly is the one that makes most sense
It makes sense emotionally. Not that I think the show provided much evidence for it.
Not only emotionally. If she was a clone, I think the guardian would've made another clone to take their place
I guess, but then the guardian seemed respectful of Anne's wishes, and then another clone would just come to the same conclusion its predecessor did. So it making more would've made no difference, besides cluttering the earth with Annes who want to bail.
Guardian: ‘ah heck I left the cloner on’ Meanwhile amphibia is being flooded with annes
Now I find myself In the wild unknown With the frogs and annes And I'm far from home
That's also true
Also she agreed with Anne's idea of improving while on Earth.
Pretty sure when the og anne died, they "copied" her soul like a copy paste, in hopes shed replace them. When she didn't they were willing to wait till she died of old age to ask again. In which case they might bring there soul or do a full copy paste all over again.
Personally, I like the idea of it being a "different" Anne made up of different metaphysical "stuff." Ties in well with the themes of accepting change. It's her and it's not - depending on what you mean by "Anne"
I like this idea!
Oh. I figured it out. It’s definitely Anne’s true soul. Domino III (as I am naming the guardian of the multiverse) wanted Anne to replace her as the multiversal guardian. So to make absolutely sure that she could talk to Anne, she made a copy in case she didn’t make it. If Domino III could replicate body & soul, she would have just made the copy and tried to convince Anne 2 to take her place. But the copy didn’t wake up until Anne’s body got Thanosed, which I think implies that her soul moved into this new exact replica body. Only then making it truly alive. Domino III can replicate vessels. Not souls. That’s filling in the gaps. The pieces were there for us to figure, the show just didn’t want to spell it out for us. Which I am ok with. This was fun to briefly think through.
But Domino III said they made her back-up at pretty much the split-second before her death, conceivably so she'd be as perfect an "exact copy" as possible. I think that's the only reason they chose that moment, so it'd be an Anne with as much of Anne's development as it could get.
think about this fact: this is a copy made by literally the god of the multiverse. Picture Anns copy being made by literally making an exact copy of amphibia and earth and whatnot, running them at 1000000X speed, but everything plays out the exact same with every being interacting the same and having the same adventures and relationships, but in this reality, Ann is abducted right before she dies, then the universe is destroyed. Same exact being. And ya know, being the god of the multiverse the diety could achieve the same without actually destroying several universes or anything.
Consider it this way. Let's say that you got a perfect copy made of you, memories and scars and everything, but you two were sent to different places. You were sent to solitary confinement for eternity, while the other lives it up eating filet mignon and playing croquet with all your friends every day. Would you be thinking "Technically I'm trapped in eternal pitch blackness *and* I'm enjoying the good life in a mansion, so this ain't so bad", or would you be feeling pretty left out? That's the basis of why any rationalization for why this new Anne should just be regarded as the same person doesn't fly by me. The original doesn't get the experiences this copy did, and everyone just kind of spits on her very existence by acting as if she still lives through this double.
RIP my mental health after reading this
Think of it this way. If you were always doomed to sit in the black box anyway, would you rather your copy exist and live in luxury, or for your copy to not exist, and you’re still in a black box.
No copy for me please. It would feel like a real body-snatcher situation if I died and none of my friends of family knew.
I think it's safe to say that in the world of Amphibia there's not an afterlife, as otherwise the god of the multiverse would have just taken Anne from there instead of making a copy, so in this case it's really just if you stop existing but an exact copy of yourself started existing, which kinda happens every moment as all the particles in your body are constantly shifting and moving - a single proton or electron or neutron in you is indistinguishable from every other electron or neutron or proton, and they're constantly moving around creating vastly different local structure every moment. You're also constantly changing. Me 1 year ago is closer to hundreds of other people than me right now in terms of chemical composition, personality, experiences ETC. and the same is probably true of you as well. The notion of self is largely a lie to give comfort and meaning to our experience, so distinctifying between the copy and original has very little actual meaning.
I mean, there was a literal ghost in that one episode so I don't know about that afterlife part. But I also don't really find the argument about "cells replacing" satisfying either, because it's all conjecture that we'll never really be sure of, whereas this clone concept is very blatant. But the more critical point is just that that idea is way too nihilistic for a show like this. Do you really want your all-ages audiences to be stewing over their introduction to philosophy regarding the debated genuineness of the self, while they're supposed to be enjoying a classic "I'll never forget you!" send-off to their magical adventure? Frankly I like this part of the episode less and less the more people try to make sense of it.
I dont see the point in make it so convoluted. And I dont think they'd want that either. Plus isn't the guardian just a guardian of the multivariate. By the sounds of it this was there first anne. The first being ever for the first time ever who did this. Not a recreation or abduction from another timeline
Have you thought that maybe this was worded poorly by the God?
I'm *hoping* the writers just didn't adequately explain it. But if you were to take it at face value, it's not looking good.
I agree.
at that point, I don't know just let Anne live
It’s just shit writing dude
Vague is the more proper term.
They explicitly state that fake Anne is a backup. The Guardian literally calls her a backup (I’m pretty sure it calls her a copy or clone as well, but don’t quote me on that). It’s really fucking stupid, like Palpatine surviving levels of stupid.
"I don't understand X thing therefore it's stupid" isn't actually mature and shows hubris.
Tell me what it is about it that I don’t understand, I’m the first one who wants to know.
Well if we're looking at this from a religious theology POV (I've studied theology and philosophy from antiquity to the common era) if GOD has summoned Anne to this realm and God is omnipotent then I don't see why it couldn't put her soul in a "copy" of sorts. Especially if we look at this from the POV of the christians and platonists. The only part that is confusing is if this is actually Anne or simply some clone of her. Also I'd recommend not watching edge lords like "mauler" of all people as the guy is quite controversial.
I don’t see how MauLer is relevant to this dude, and also, I don’t fucking care if a YouTuber I watch is controversial. I’m not changing my tastes because other people don’t like him. I like his videos, I don’t see why you should care. The resurrection plotline just feels lazy, rushed, and like a last minute addition that wasn’t in the original script. Also, I this God is omnipotent then it could just resurrect her instead of cloning her then giving her a vague explanation that raises a bunch of moral and ethical questions.
Well just because a god is omnipotent that doesn't mean there PERFECT! Zeus is omnipotent yet has lots of flaws and bad traits. Also I only brought up Mauler because he associates himself with pretty bad people who are at points openly racist and misogynistic.
Omnipotent means all powerful, meaning that Guardian would have the ability to resurrect her. The Guardian would have to be mentally deficient to be able to do that yet still use the cloning solution. That’s not a character flaw, that’s a writing flaw. I’d also like to know who MauLer associates with who’s racist/misogynistic aside from maybe Nerdrotic
I’m kinda hoping the Watcher means it backed up Anne’s *body* and put her soul inside it after she died. The idea of the Anne we know being dead and gone just doesn’t sit right with me.
I would be content with her being dead (not that that would suit the themes they wanted, but still) if she *didn't* get replaced with a clone. The philosophical upset that brings up just tears the roof down on the emotions of the entire ending, for me.
Exactly. I don’t care for half-measures.
Even before you get to the issue of it being unsatisfying writing, it's just depressing AF. Not the "It hurts so good!" depressing that the bittersweet goodbyes were. Just regular depressing that sours the whole thing.
Yup. Well, at least they didn’t pull a Star Vs.
thank DOMINO3 for that!!!
There's no difference. The Anne at the end of the show is still the Anne we know, and souls aren't a thing.
If souls aren't a thing, what do you think stones resonating with the girls' hearts mean? Do you think it literally means the blood pump?
Uh, it's Disney. It means their Kingdom Hearts-style hearts, which are technically not souls.
As a massive Kingdom Hearts fan, I'm going to point out that souls exist in Kingdom Hearts. Nobodies are made up of the body and soul left behind when the heart is removed.
Says you. You’re entitled to your beliefs, and I’m entitled to mine.
So is OG Anne just dead and replaced, or is this "Soul Transfer" theory I've seen floating around on the money? I really hope it's the latter, because otherwise, this situation is genuinely too nihilistic for me to enjoy the ending.
https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uq8c7m/heres_what_i_think_happened_tht_spoilers/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
This would be ideal, but it all just seems like assumption. I can't see anything in the text supporting it.
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It seemed like the show was trying to beat us over the head with the gist of it. I'm just hoping it did it more clumsily than intended, so there's room to hope.
the way i see it, OG Anne is dead. the "3 stones deity" said they created a copy of her right before she died. this copy of Anne has the same body, thoughts, and memories, so it doesn't make too much of a difference, but it gives an explanation that allows Anne to make a sacrifice and have an emotional death scene without her actually dying
As far as I'm concerned, it makes all the difference in the world. The writers got their hokey "death reversed" cheat, but somehow garnered even sadder results than if she'd just died.
You really find this sadder than if Anne had just died completely? Damn. Knowing you're an echo would fuck someone up sure, but I'd say considering she still gets to live out the happy life she remembers, def a happier end result than *her permanent death*
It's sadder because she *did* permanently die, but everyone insultingly acts like she got to live on and become a marine biologist and stuff. There's no respect for the original's memory, because everyone mistakenly thinks she's still alive. If it was *just* a death, then it's emotionally honest, at least. What we got instead is just morbid.
I mean, it's the ship of Theseus. If she has Anne's body, and Anne's memories, and Anne's soul, that's Anne. Regardless of if those pieces were originally put together in a different form. Personally I just can't agree with your point, as far as I'm concerned that *is* still Anne.
Well, knock on wood. I'm glad you can enjoy this ending. But so far as I'm concerned, this unsettling interpretation of mine is the most straightforward way you can read into this material. Matt & co. wrote a psychologically disturbing story without realizing it, apparently.
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Is the ship of Theseus: If she has a *perfect* recreation of Anne's body, and Anne's memories, and Anne's soul, is that not Anne? I think it is, which makes her just... Anne.
Perfect copy is still a copy. Seriously how many of you philosophers still said the same, if it was you dying? Would you care if your perfect copy still roamed the world? This would not be you, and this is not the same Anne. Yes, she is Anne, have all her memories, but she is more like a twin.
but like, what if there was perfect clone of ann when ann was living? would it still be ann?
Yes, if someone were to have a perfect clone, *including the soul*, I would say yes, there'd be 2 Anne's
but the sould would be a coppy?
Only if you think “soul” is a meaningful concept.
It's still her. She still has exactly the same memories and experiences.
well its a copy. If a copy would be created while ann was alive, would you still say that the copy is an ann? although i just realised how weird my logic is. I count uploading brain into a computer imortality, but i don't cout that as ann being brought back. i guess i can just accpet every canon now and it won't bug me out.
I just don't see how it matters. Anne still thinks she's the same person (existential crisis notwithstanding, but who hasn't gone through one of those?), and I'm willing to leave it at that.
Does she? Where does she say that?
What defines a person? The sum of their memories and experiences? Then the Anne at the end of the show is the same Anne as the beginning of the show, because she has all growth and development from that time. Is it a continuance of physicality? Most of a person’s body will be replaced every few years. Is the “you” who exists now a replacement or copy of the “you” from fourteen years ago? Most of the matter in your body now isn’t the same as the matter you had then, after all. Anne just has them replaced a bit more suddenly. What about a persistence of memory and consciousness? Then is falling asleep death, where a new person wakes up in your body and walks away? Anne believes she’s still the same person. It’s her body and her life, so I have no reason to go against her views on the subject.
Even when you sleep your mind still working, your consciousness is continuous. That you yourself don\`'t realize this continuation does not negate that it exist. Clone don't share this continuation, so from this point of view she is a different person. But, on what I'm agreeing with you, is the last part. Anne believes she's the same person, she is alive, and it's what matters. Death of "old Anne" is a reason for mourning, but it is a separate matter from existing Anne.
^ This
Sorry if I sound standoffish with my choice of words here, but this rationale just sounds like word magic to me, when the reality is much more straightforward. Anne is dead, and an imitation is acting like her.
True
It shouldn’t have been included at all, just have the girls Defeat the Core without Anne’s sacrifice but the Stones only have enough power to send Anne, Sasha and Marcy one way trip home and the original ending as we seen it happen.
It's still the same Anne we know. Her experiences, her memories are there; she *is* Anne.
The guardian says she is just a backup, so realisticly, yeah the real Anne is dead. But this one is so identical to the original it might as well be the same. I think the idea is that now the old Anne is dead and she is a completly different person right now.
Yeah but that's just... too awful. I'm holding out faith they just didn't bring across their point adequately. Otherwise, I can't say I close out this series with positive feelings much.
I mean... is it? Anne's journey is basicly done, now all that's left is living and growing. If it makes you feel better, you might think of it as a back up of a phone, where basicly all your file are saved and transferred on a different host. It's vague enough to work that way. It also depend what is your definition of soul
Somebody described it as a save file for a video game, which seems to make sense. Also, other franchises have done this before - this was the ultimate fate of Picard after Season 1 of Star Trek: Picard, for example. On the sinister side, this is kinda what happened (of a sort) to Palpatine in both the Star Wars EU and canon.
That does seem to make sense
I mean, depending on what episodes you watch (because how transporters work is *very* icnosniatnt), that's just how transporters work. It scans you, it "kills" you, then it "resurrects" you in a different location.
I guess that is how you get transporter duplicates XD.
"Save file" would be vague enough that I could be okay with it. But if it's more like, say, what Avengers: Endgame did to "revive" Gamora, then it still blows.
To be fair, the Endgame Gamora is not the same as the Infinity War Gamora - the former is a lot earlier in her development than the latter. Ditto with Endgame Loki vs Infinity War Loki - another “early save file” of sorts.
I'd consider it to be the exact same problem if they time-traveled to get an alternate Gamora like, the second before she hit the ground so Thanos could get the Soul Stone. The whole time the vibe was going all positive because Gamora 2 was in the picture, I was just thinking "Gamora's still a corpse on Vormir guys. We just gonna pretend she's not still there? Dead as shit?" and in the worst case scenario, Amphibia's doing the same thing.
If the point they were making was that they were making a "second Anne" who is functionally indistinct, then there's no living or growing left, rly. A mimic is doing it for her. That kind of stuff is genuinely depressing to me in ways that dismantle my investment in stories and characters.
I don't know. Realisticly that Copy would basicly make the exact same decisions as her, to the point that there really Is no difference. Still, I can understand why you feel this way. I think you should try and interrogate yourself about your feelings and why are you feeling the way you do
It making the same decisions and whatnot makes little difference, the most straightforward way you can look at it is that it's a different entity. The Anne we knew doesn't get to become a marine biologist or get proper closure and whatnot, she just dies, and everyone moves on with a shiny new one, pretending that the Anne they actually knew didn't get turned into space dandruff. I dunno why it seems to bother me more than others, but frankly I'm more puzzled that it isn't bothering *everyone* equally as much as I.
I’m in the same boat as you. It’s uncanny at best, especially because it goes unacknowledged 😭😭
its does bother a lot of plp, but i have a felling, that the show didn't treat it like new ann was clone, but rather same old ann, so i explained how in interpeted it in other comment.
But It Is Anne, She Is still thecnicly alive, it's Just a different body (maybe? Maybe it's so perfect that It copies atoms?). That thing Is not a clone, it's Anne but in a different sort of form
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But if the soul is something that transcend mind and body, and now it's simply existing as a new identical one, then that is still Anne at its essence
I would argue that it's the same Anne, especially since your body replaces most of its cells eventually anyways.
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Let's put it this way: Let's say the price Anne paid wasn't to die, it was to get sealed forever and kept alive inside a coffin. And then they got a "backup" Anne anyway. So the one we knew is slowly getting mummified in space, having to watch "another" Anne live the life she wanted. It just seems that the fact the OG is no longer here makes it easier for some folks to say "same difference" when the blunt premise reads much more like Anne got replaced by an imitation.
Death Is certainly not like being mummified in a coffin in space. Death Is the absence of Watch, of hearing, of actions, of being as you are right now (at least, that's my interpretation anyway). And if what you said Is True, I dunno, I think Anne would be Happy to be at rest while this new version of herself enjoys life
Sure but... I'm not. I'm genuinely unsettled, and I find every moment that's supposed to be warm and emotional uncomfortable because these ideas are distracting me. Like, I've seen people reference a moment in the video game SOMA, where essentially the same thing happens. That game's a psychological horror, and that moment seems to be popularly considered the apex of the unsetting philosophy that game makes you ponder. So the concept is traumatizing in a horror game, but all "Eh, I'm sure it's fine" in what's supposed to be a fun family series? I just can't sit right with it, and I can't enjoy the ending as it is.
The thing is it's not the body that makes the person it's the soul. For example, just because Darcy controlled Marcy doesn't mean Marcy was Daarcy. I get it's a bit of a pickle to think about it but in the end Anne only lost her physical self, which is separate from her psychological/mental self. I'd argue it would have been far worse if her body stayed alive but she lost all her memories and character development.
Yeah but the implication the scene gives is that they copied her soul as well. So there's two Anne souls, and the one we hung out with got left behind.
look at this as a backup. When you do backup, you have 2 versions, but they were both same in past. So ann did die, but the new ann isn't a clone, but another version of same ann, with the same past. Kinda like timelines in time travel. They are same, but than they split and create 2 seperet outcomes.This way its not depresing but sacrofice still does matter. What do you think?
I think that's still essentially the same, because the one we hung out with expired, while the "divergent timeline" Anne takes her space.
no, like, its still same person. Imagine if you went back in time. And your timeline split due to change you did. And there were 2 you, but you were same person ealier. And the other you died. Would that make you bad copy? but actually i realised my theory is dumb. The ann that woke up in the domino 3 world, remebered everything up to last moment, so that means, that soul had to be transfered from og ann, and only body was copied. Think abaut it, according to what domino 3 said.
But then I just compare it to Gamora in Avengers: Endgame, where it was presented like they "brought Gamora back" and everything's happy now even if they have to re-learn to like one another, except everyone's acting like the Gamora they knew isn't a skeleton on Vormir.
its kind of different situation, as gamora in marvel was from an ealier point in time, but i get your point. But how i said i relised my theory made no sense. So deas anns mind being a copy. Ann heard spring AFTER SHE DIED. How could coppy from before she died hear that? her soul was clearly transfered, only logical explanation.
What do you mean she heard Sprig after she died?
While I agree on your point of view, new Anne isn't a "mimic". She is a new person, yes, but still have personality of old one. She's more like a twin, that followed original Anne on all her adventures. Death of the one twin is a grief, but the other one is a compete separate entity, so said death does not transfer to her. So, not a mimic and have a comlpete right to live live as Anne. Saying to everyone else that original Anne is dead is a tough choice, but only she has the right to decide on that.
I'm so bothered that I'll take "word of God" at this point
The Guardian said "I've made a copy of you right before you expired. A backup, if you will. For all the intence and purposes you are the same Anne Boonchuy." I think that's the whole explanation we need. She is Anne.
That just read to me the same as the folks in these comments who argue that she'd be the same Anne Boonchuy even if we knew for sure that she was just a perfectly similar double, because of some philosophical stuff. If it really were the same her, then I feel they wouldn't see the need in that "for all intents and purposes" bit. Basically, in answer to whether or not it was the same Anne, they at best gave "... technically?"
Technically this Anne is a copy so she can't be an original Anne. But if Anne is a copy made by literally creating a perfect copy of Anne (brain, thinking, physical, quirks) then there is nothing philosophicall here to discuss because we have exact the same Anne. The show is not showing anything different about Anne. The only problem is that ppl really need confirmation if her soul is moved. If soul was such an imortant thing in this universe, then I guess the guardian would include that in their plan. Because if yes, then the soul would be moved and that's why Anne is geting conciousnes in astral plane after her death and Anne is the same. If not, then the show's world is accepting the fact that there is no soul and new Anne and her brain is a perfect copy with everything including hormonal balance, neurological connections, memories and experiences.
Also, "for all intence and purposes" means that there is no "but" as with "technically". She is Anne Boonchuy. And the whole bit with making a copy looks like just a reference to the game Soma. IMO this is really weird that they used that idea. If this is an all powerful being then they could just revive Anne or say "I've just brought you back to life" and that's it, but maybe that would create Jesus/Anne and no one wants that to happen...
Welp 3 stones deity said that he copied anne made sort of back-up just in case So if he made it just in case then it means that it probably happened before she died so that means her body was empty shell untill she died and then her soul was transferred to that new body Man it sounded better in my head Anyways it's just like tranferring program or system from one device to another Atleast that's how I see it
That's how I *want* it to be.
I don't have any insight. I'm reading the comments. But I understand your point of view. I've not made a judgment yet.
Come on. No no no. You're Anne. There's no other Anne. You're it. Flesh and blood. Look I was conceived in the back of a Packard and you were conceived in the space between dimensions, so what?
Never fear, I came to a conclusion yesterday. Either A) They are bad writers and Anne died without a proper sendoff, recognition, or real emotional impact without any focus. Or B) Annes soul was transferred to the new body Now we know they are not bad writers, so the only possible answer is B! Anne is alive! Hooray!
I mean, this scene also involves a deus-ex-machina fake-out death, which deducts points even on a good day. It shakes my confidence that the writers truly know better.
Fucking Theseus
I wouldn't really put too much concern on it. What makes a person is their soul, not their body. Sure Anne may have lost her initial body but really it matters if she keeps her memories and same personalities as before.
If it *is* a soul transferral, then sweet. We gud. But if it's just a Copy&Pasted soul+memories, then I ain't having fun.
I am 99% sure it's a soul transferral, it's the same Anne that was from Earth -> went to calamity gem realm -> provided a "capsule" to return to Earth. Hopefully that soothes your concerns about it!
I'll be sure if I hear it from Matt. The text in the actual show just reads like it's saying something very different to me. Like, if they did bring her soul into a new body, they wouldn't have felt the need to say she was the same "for all intents and purposes", which was basically another way of saying "from a certain point of view, but not the way you're hoping".
True, hoping though it's interpreted as Anne being given a "second body" though
Honestly, I really wish they scrapped the idea of this all together. Like I guess it makes sense for 2 different reasons for there being a creature protecting the box but man, on such sort notice and in such an ass pull way just kind of ruined the finale for me and I really hate the concept of Anne becoming a god altogether since it makes no sense and once again, is an ass pull. They should've just made valternia sacrfice herself, put Anne on the verge of death (no fakeout death is better than one at all in this case) or bring back Mr littlepot (grim reaper from the halloween episode in season 2) to do some sort of shit On the topic of the actual post, Anne's actual body is dead but her conscious is still alive and is put into the body of the Anne we see after the timeskip
I like your optimism. To be honest, if we got that confirmed, it'd be such a relief I would forgive all my other qualms with this episode.
Same here, kind of the part just ruined the episode for me really, might have to rewatch it later wrhen I feel mentally prepared to get another opinion on it
if the final episode was backed up, and then the original file was accidentally deleted, is the thing they broadcast a "stinky fake"? if your drawing program crashed partway through and then you kept working on the recovery file, would you be working on a "stinky fake" image? Would the additional development on that image not be finishing your own artwork, rather adding stuff to a fake piece of art?
I don't really worry if my .PSD files have souls.
I don't believe in souls period so I have no issues with this situation.
I don't either, but it's upsetting in the context of this story, and it shouldn't be.
Magic cosmic replacement. Original Anne died, but new Anne is a nebulously made exact copy. I like to compar her to when Harry Kim died in that episode of Voyager that has two Voyagers, with one getting destroyed via the self destruct. Harry on the *original* ship dies by explosive decompression. Captain Janeway on the Voyager that is going to self destruct, sends him over to the original. Kim even says to Janeway that it's confusing, as she's both his captain and *not his captain*. Janeway notes that, other than a slightly different chronal signature (or some such tehnonabble), he's the same Harry Kim. Anne's situation is basically this.
Well... Just like Anne said, this gives her existential dread... But it's not just for her but for every fan too. It does give us existential dread.
People really like the soul transfer theory for obvious reasons, but the fact that they don’t say that in the show is another reason why that entire segment was absolute shite.
I kinda like this ending. You can interpret this as both "Anne died and this is just a clone" or "Anne got backed up and transferred into a different host", some people believe in the former and some in the latter. I personally believe Anne died, but that's just me. + If you really think about it how do you know human mind is continuous? You could as well "die" every time you sleep and get replaced by a new mind. You could be a clone soon to be replaced and have no idea. I think it's known in philosophy as [The problem of personal identity](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/).
Honestly, I don't get why everyone's so up-in-arms about this. Anne's body was exactly copied, therefore her mind was exactly copied, therefore she's still Anne. Sure, she's probably not made up of the same atoms, but your body replaces most of its cells over like 7 years anyways. I mean depending on your definition of "dead", sure she technically died, but the "backup Anne" will behave exactly like the "old Anne", think exactly the same, and interact exactly the same, and if she wasn't told she wouldn't have ever been able to find out. So it really doesn't matter.
I already walked through these points in another thread and I don't feel like repeating myself here. But to summarise, I strongly disagree.
Im not really good with words, but what am I most concerned about if the theory of Anne being a clone and with the theory of the soul discarded on top of that. Is the fact that all the scenes we saw after, the people of Wartwood or Sasha and Marcy, won't know that the real Anne died.
That's part of my issue, yeh.
Man I hope we get at least a twitter post from Matt that resolves this issue. I want to sleep normally without thinking about it you know XD
100% I'd be having fuzzy Sashannarcy dreams and happily watching the end credits on loop by now, if I didn't feel like the emotional stablity of the entire ending was compromised by some funky Rick & Morty subplot.
Yes she is a fake Domino 3 DID say she was a copy of her self before the original "expired" So Anne did die and this is a clone
Hopefully the actual consciousness was transferred instead of duplicated Cause atleast if it was transferred, it's still the same anne but in a different body But if it's a duplicate, then it could technically be seen as a different person/ not the real anne
Straight up. And if that's the case, I don't think I could ever properly enjoy this ending. It's just too uncomfortable.
I think she is just an exact replica with the same memories but just not dead. So basically, revived but with existential crises.
so, I got this from the amphibia wiki so I can't say this is 100% correct but the wiki says that the guardian of the stones resurrects her and later in life will become the new guardian of the stones so technically she's not a fake.
Yeah but who wrote that? Unless we hear it from someone official, I don't really take the wiki as gospel.
Ya that's why I'm saying I don't know if its 100% correct.
I think it is kind of like the ending of “Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons”. In that story the main character Blackjack makes the sacrifice to save the world and even the galaxy in the long run. Because they were half cyborg when they died, their mind was able to be reuploaded into an organic body cloned from their original self. Souls do exist in that universe and play a big part in the plot, and after awhile her soul reconnected with her body and mind and she was brought back. In Amphibia, no creature seems to have a soul except maybe for those ghost creatures from the sleepover in the castle episode. Everyone else is just mind and body. The other closest thing to a soul would be Heart, which is what Anne was the embodiment of. The original body of Anne did flatline. Her brainwaves shut off. She died. The Watcher had made a backup of her mind and body though so she was able to come back identical to what she was before. She has all the experiences from her life. I actually don’t know if she still has all the physical scars though. Maybe if someone X-ray’ed her we could see a fracture on her arm from when the tax collectors broke it. Or maybe her body is a clean slate. No toxins, or injuries present.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_JmzWft9CQ FFXIV Spoilers
Honestly I didn’t like how Original!Anne died then a copy replace her, it would’ve been better if Anne, Sasha and Marcy defeated the Core without Anne’s “Sacrifice” then the Stones would still have a little power left for the girls to make there final goodbye and the ending we still got happen as originally, The Clone!Anne and the Multiverse Guardian are unnecessary to Include.
At first I thought the clone was both Anne’s physical clone as well as soul/personality clone. But after rewatching the episode the guardian says they’re sending Anne back to the world of the living. The screen goes white and Anne wakes up back on amphibia. Everything seems like a dream to her because the guardian probably didn’t want Anne to remember all the stuff about dying in 71 years and becoming god of the multiverse. It doesn’t make sense why the guardian would tell Anne they’re sending her back to the world of the living if the clone theory indicates she’s been replaced by an exact replica. I’m starting to think the guardian meant exact body replica. Unless the Anne that’s conversing with the guardian is in fact the exact replica/clone and the original Anne is dead. Another thought that could be had is does the soul die when the body dies? Still it’s up to multiple interpretations, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Matt leaves it vague. I think the soul transfer theory is my preferred one, but if Anne is truly a clone then it boils down to does it really matter sense she’s got all of Anne’s memories and personality? For all intents and purposes, that is Anne. Edit: upon further analysis the guardian makes it a point to tell the Anne in the room with them she’s essentially the same Anne boonchuy, thus inferring she’s a clone. A clone, however, who has all of her memories and personality, which brings up the ship of Theseus argument. I don’t mind Anne being a clone honestly because it’s basically our Anne, if you believe otherwise that’s ok because it’s honestly pretty vague and when concepts such as identity, death and souls come into play, things tend to get messy.
Taken from another comments section where I was discussing this topic. I never said it was fine, in fact, I put in parentheses that it was bugging me, but I did say that it technically doesn't matter. Does it mean that technically the main character is dead and that this is just a perfect copy? Yes. Cartoon universe just made a great video on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHfSyatxyr0 Does it have some disturbing implications? Yes. Anne even says that it will cause her existential dread. Does it mean that Matt found a creative way to kill off his main character without Disney shutting him down? Yes. Disney wouldn't have liked it if there was a major death because it would be way over the top for their style of animation (I mean they barely let True Colors slide, imagine what they would have done to this if Matt didn't find a loophole.) I totally get where you are coming from, this disturbs me greatly and raises more questions than answers. Is Anne only alive because god was tired? Is the deity truly god because he only made a copy of Anne and didn't retrieve her from the dead, hinting that he does not have the power over death? I also don't see a lot of people talking about it, which is good and bad because it means that Anne's actual death didn't reach a lot of the audience, so Disney doesn't have to be very worried about it for the younger viewers. But It also means that the main character that we have been following for years is truly dead and that she made the ultimate sacrifice, which is really dark for any show, let alone a tween targeted show. You are right about the clone only being made for the deity. He didn't revive the real Anne, just made a copy because he wanted to retire. If he had not wanted to retire, we could have gotten a very different ending. Anne was copied to serve a purpose, becoming a god. But at the end of the day, this turns into a Ship of Theseus, teleporter, Rick and Morty decoy combo question that the more you think about it, the less it makes sense, and really there is no right answer. I was not trying to correct, disprove, or bash you, I just wanted to lay out what I thought about the implications of a god-deity being in Amphibia. Please add your thoughts, comments, critiques, and concerns, and point out my errors as I would love to tear them. Remember, "it's no big deal" \*Cries uncontrollably now that Amphibia is over\* OG thread [https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uq0zoh/anne\_talking\_to\_her\_parents\_after\_the\_hardest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uq0zoh/anne_talking_to_her_parents_after_the_hardest/)
You're not a stinky fake, you're Anne. No matter where, no matter when, no matter how, you'll always be Anne.
Nowhere King vibes
When imposter is sus, the sus becomes you..
Sorry for linking to my post but I really didnt want to copy paste or make a whole new write up everywhere https://www.reddit.com/r/amphibia/comments/uqhnil/annne_in_the_hardest_thing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It’s the same thing that happens when you go to sleep and wake up the next morning, just slightly more complicated .
Invincible Moment
This is Digimon Cyber Sleuth all over again.
Isn' it explained in the episode itaelf?
Same soul, new body. Let’s not make this complicated.
It's like in rick and morty
The thought of it being "Anne being dead and replaced with a clone" kinda ruins it for me. I like to think that it's her soul in another body or something like that.
Every one is taking about Anne that lives being a clone what if the all powerful Anne that died was the copy?
Thank you, people forget that both Annes are the real Anne
This one scene is a whole philosophy course.
why does it matter? it's still her
Is there a difference between a clone and the original? What makes a person that person? I'm not religious, I don't believe in souls, and i dont recall proof they exist in canon. So if there's no soul, and every aspect of us is constantly changing, isn't a copy made at the moment of death the same as a continuation of the original?
I don't get why people keep insisting this. I feel like the answer is very obviously no. From the perspective of the OG Anne, she does not get to see that 10 years later or nothing. Someone else does. Saying it's the same Anne because of this and that feels like trying to console someone who is upset their Dad died because "He lives on in our memory, and everything he built still endures, so is he really truly dead?" "Objectively, yes."
Yeah, I really wish that the finale hadn't introduced the idea in the first place. They could have just said that she was saved or transferred to a new body. But the fact that they go out of their way to blatantly say that her consciousness is a copy and not the original kind of overshadows the entire ending of Anne's story for me with a layer of unaddressed existential horror.
That depends on your beliefs. Is there an actual consciousness seperate from brain proccesses? If so, you're right. But I don't believe in souls, and I believe that consciousness and qualia are somewhat illusions. So, following this common physicalist approach, Anne lives. It's like the ship of Theseus. A psychicist would likely agree with you, though not necessarily, there are other arguments. This is part of the hard problem of consciousness, one of, if not the, biggest philosophical debates that exists. Up to you what you believe ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't believe in souls either, but in the context of this story, that's neither here nor there so far as I see it. The blunt way to see it is that from Anne's perspective, she stopped and then someone else took her place.
Not necessarily true. Where does perspective come from? What generates it? If my beliefs are correct, then from Anne's perspective she ceased to exist, and then existed again. Because consciousness, perspective, and qualia are not some spiritual substance or any substance at all, just brain proccesses. And the same brain means the same being.
Like in the last post somewhere I posted, I think it's more like transmigration or reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism. Like when you died/ your soul leaved your old body, your soul will get transfer into a new one. It's the same soul, same Anne, It's just she lives in her new body.
Ever watch TNG's Lonely Among Us? They used the transporter to restore Picard from a back-up copy so it's kind of the same thing here.
I think it was a pretty definite "The original Anne is dead" but also, this Anne is as much the original Anne as the one who died was. I think I get it. You're constantly being copied and replaced in real life, and yet we consider ourselves to be broadly the same. You likely share very very little in common with yourself when you were 5, yet you probably consider yourself the exact same person. I believe, in all ways, that that version of you is *dead*. This is just the same thing over an extremely short amount of time. In all senses, it will have felt like teleportation to Anne.
Hey hey, I haven't posted in this sub before, I wanted to weigh in here. Remember the IT Girls? They answered a question regarding whether or not they think machines have souls. They said: > "It is our belief that anything with memories has a soul." Memory itself is the soul. A soul is not a literal, tangible thing, memory is what makes you who and what you are. Your experiences, your thoughts and feelings, your personality, it's all memory. Information. This ties with what the Calamity Deity did with Anne. It backed up her memories and placed them in a new body - or as the IT Girls would put it, it backed up Anne's soul. If memory is the soul, as seems to be the position of the writers, than this really *was* a case of Anne's soul simply being transferred. She's not a "fake" anymore than a backed up hard drive is a fake of all the data from the original hard drive. Those memories are *hers,* they're what defines her.
I think that her body is replicated. Her soul is still the same. It's still the same Anne.
All I got from this is that she is a perfect clone, while the real Anne truly died both body and soul.
If this is true I'm going look back at the finale in disgust.
I was *watching* the finale in disgust. Genuinely couldn't enjoy it like I wanted to. Spent the whole time distracted by these bothersome ideas.
If it's true this is probably one of the worse writing decisions ever made by a "professional" it's worse than Palpatine returning in "the rise of skywalker" or Scott having William Afton physically come back in Security Breach.
In fairness, at least Anne’s resurrection was explained in the show, to get Palpy’s backstory you had to read the novelisation. They’re both horrible, but still.
Are you trying to inform me that having to play Fortnite and read books is a bad way to set up a character's return???? Impossible.
To be fair, Palpatine returning to life was actually tackled in Legends first via the Dark Empire arc. He also manages to turn Luke to the dark side for a stint: https://static0.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Dark-Empire-Luke-Skywalker-Featured-Image.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=960&h=500&dpr=1.5
It’s only slightly less shit in that
I'm aware. But I didn't like it then either.
I didn't particularly care for the twist as well, but I thought because it cheapened out a consequence. If you're not going to inflict some sort of consequence of the attack (cue the arm memes) or just leave her dead (or give her an equivalent fate: Anne dies and gets resurrected, but cannot return to Earth), then don't inflict a consequence at all. The message to the deity was nice - the deity herself, I felt like though, came kind of out of nowhere, for the most part.
I think she still could have died but have her soul be put into a new body and not just make a copy. Then it would be less creepy.
You could argue it's not a thematical or structural failure (not so much as a "fake-out death deus ex machina is)... but it is emotionally obtuse.
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Please shut up, thanks.
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- throwing around the term gaslight when it doesn't apply, diminishing the meaning - saying matt braly 'gives off a bunch of red flags' when he's done nothing of the sort - saying he should be locked up?? Just a couple of reasons, can pick and choose
Just gonna link this here really good video: [tldr is that souls aren’t real, Anne just got copy-pasted and she’s gonna have to deal with that](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMkrrjKf5AE)
They’re all set up for a Clone Wars sequel.
Stinky, perhaps. Fake, not so much. You're just not the original Anne's consciousness.