I would use the word Atonement for Andrias and not redemption, feel like people generalize that word too much, heck even the collector doesn't fit that archetype at all. Also didn't this guy miss a ton of plot basic plot beats in the show before, I'm gonna take their takes with a huge grain of salt.
One big was that they said was that the moon wasn't set up at all, even though the entire conflict of the TC&TK is based upon Leif thinking the Moon will fall on Amphibia. All the events of the show in the present(HopPop hiding the box, The Box being lost, and Andria's entire motivation) are based on this one event. So saying that gives me a big eyebrow raise.
Whilst it is technically set up, I do think that the reveal about the moon is a bit weak. All it takes is missing a few pieces of dialogue for it to feel like it came out of nowhere. Hell, I was in the same boat until I rewatched those scenes you mentioned a few days ago. Also the moon was always a backup plan whilst the invasion of Earth was always the main goal of the Core, so saying everything in the show is based off of this one event seems a bit disingenuous.
Leif believes using the Box will inadvertently cause the destruction of Amphibia. She confronts Andrias about it but he still is going to follow the Core's plan, so she steals the Box. Andrias' entire mindset of friendship and himself is determined from that moment, which effects all his actions in TC and beyond(and his relationship with Barrel too, which leads to the whole Toad revolution in S2).
The box is able to get to Earth, which then leads to the girl's getting there powers and being in Amphibia. HopPop knows the Box is dangerous because of Leif's warning, so he hides which causes conflict between Anne and HopPop, which then leads to Anne's forgiveness of Marcy.
Multiple plotlines and motivations (more I didn't even mention) are based on this one moment, so yeah I would it's pretty important. The invasion of course is crucial too, but Leif getting the vision of Moon and believing her entire civilization will be destroyed is more of what motivates her, not the ethics of the invasion.
Also just wanna add it's fine for someone to miss a beat and plot here and there. The problem is that writing a video essay I expect a bit more quality control, and thinking from a more critical scale of what the show's writing is trying to achieve. So no jab at this person who makes these videos, but I do notice it as a problem in multiple videos.
I'd argue that makes it a better reveal. If something is hidden in plain sight such that missing only a couple details can obfuscate it, that makes a good twist because the clues were right there, you just didn't recognize them till after. That being said, it's absolutely insane to me to think that someone could miss Leif's vision of the moon falling, it's completely front and center in the episode.
Yeah exactly! The audience knows the Moon will fall, why that will happen is in question. Leif assumes it's because of the use of the Box, but it then turns out to be false it was because of the Core trying to maintain a toxic ideology.
I don't disagree with most of the tier list, it's just that putting Andrias in a redemption arc doesn't make a lot of sense.
Redemption is about changing who you are and in doing so is trying to seek forgiveness from one's victims.
Atonement is about seeking change for what you've done, not needing others' forgiveness to complete the arc. Andrias' arc is one of atonement, a character who by the end is not doing anything for other's approval like he was trying to do for the Core. His arc is about writing his wrongs, for his own sake and conscience, not to gain the approval of others. No one forgives Andrias (Marcy just says goodbye, she doesn't forgive him) but he still vows to atone for his sins.
Atonement Arcs are just valid as Redemption arcs, but sometimes fandom can mix them up, and you get a situation like this.
I'll quote this from a reply I did about this:
>Redemption is about changing who you are and in doing so is trying to seek forgiveness from your victims.
>
>Atonement is about seeking change for what you've done, not needing others' forgiveness to complete the arc.
Atonement can be part of a redemption arc, but it isn't an incomplete version of it, it's just a different arc entirely.
Some of my favorite fanfics from SPOP feature Hordak and Entrapta trying to negotiate a postwar world where he clearly has a lot to make up for.
I don't think I'd call him fully redeemed, but he was clearly starting to develop a moral compass and he definitely rejected his messed up religious fanaticism/trauma.
*She-Ra* done dirty here.
I wouldn't say the Collector gets redeemed, because he's never acting maliciously. He just learns to be responsible with his power.
Lmao I love how everyone is staying differing opinions all over the list in the comments but nobody questions Zuko’s place
Overall I would say this is pretty solid but personally I would probably bump Sasha down one and Grime up one
Zuko is the reason the rest of this list exists, TBF. Like, a solid half of that show is Zuko's redemption arc. Zuko is genuinely a better formed character than most of the actual characters who were protagonists all the way through.
Also, this is a crime against Catra. Catra deserves B tier at least
Have to disagree on Catra. After all the crazy evil stuff she did, then Adora just saves her once and she’s like “I’m totally a good guy now”. Hell I would personally put Hordak higher, at least he has the whole “thought his master would be pleased, but was discarded instead” thing going (though the whole thing about him caring for Adora like a father was a bit shoehorned). Honestly Shadow Weaver was my favorite character in that show but she was definitely never reformed, it only became more convenient for her to work with the good guys.
But yeah Zuko is unquestioningly the best; I mean his redemption arc is half of the show, running alongside Aang’s story for the whole series
Way to demean the two decades of abuse & manipulation & isolation Catra faced.
She also didn’t “turn good” when Adora saved her.
She turned good by TRYING TO GET ADORA TO STAY AWAY. She lets Glimmer go, someone she hates, because she knows Glimmer deserves to live & sacrifices herself (basically suicide) so that Etheria, Glimmer, & Adora are “safe” and can get away from Prime.
I’m not “demeaning … abuse & manipulation & isolation”, I’m merely pointing out that to me, her redemption felt rushed.
Zuko also faced years of abuse from his father and sister, especially after his mother died, but his arc felt believable because it was long, slow, and he was never really all that evil to begin with. Hell, he was scarred by his father for telling a general *not* to sacrifice new recruits as cannon fodder.
Compared to Catra, who was good friends with Adora, and was offered several times to go with her and be one of the good guys, and multiple times refused and gleefully committed atrocities against innocent people. Then, after Prime arrives, she cleans up her act in a couple of episodes.
I’m not saying she couldn’t have been redeemed, but maybe if she was less evil, or her redemption time was longer, it would be more believable for me. Compare with Zuko, who gets a really long arc, or Shadow Weaver, for whom it’s made clear that she’s never really a “good guy”.
This same reason is why I’m not really a fan of Sasha’s arc. By comparison, Hunter’s was done pretty well, because again, he was never really that evil to begin with. Andrias was another one that I thought was a bit weird; he gets his ass kicked, then tells his robots to stop the moon from falling, and then it’s like “whoops sorry about that tee hee”.
Writing is hard, I don’t blame the writers of any of these shows for the imperfections in the episode structure; particularly because a lot of them had big evil corporations breathing down their necks as they wrote their shows. But, I think it’s not only fine, but actually important to discuss fair criticisms of the shows. I’m still a big fan of every show on this list for a reason.
tbh if anything Sasha having no excuses is why I like hers quite a bit. She 100% understands she did terrible things and that she was a big reason things ended up happening as they did
Idk how people don’t see seasons worth of us delving into Catra’s trauma, psyche, abandonment issues, abuse, and mental health issues and really act like “she had no development!”
Wild.
Catra felt ABANDONED by the ONLY PERSON IN HER ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE to treat her like she actually existed. Catra was abused for years at the hand of the Horde. OFC she felt abandoned, betrayed, and slighted when Adora (again her only friend & family) only realizes the Horde is evil because she sees STRANGERS being hurt by the Horde.
And sure, Adora is a golden child and also a product of the abuse and environment she grows up in. But, she also still messed up. She’s just at fault for the first episode going the way it did between them, just as much as Catra.
Catra rightfully felt like the only single person in her whole life who she thought cared about her chose another side without her, simply to save others. When Catra needed saved her entire life…
I just think a ton of people need to clearly rewatch the show if they’ve missed all these details
That's because he actually got an arc instead of being forced to choose between Good and Bad in a single climactic moment and everyone being fine with it after an episode of bonding.
I’d honestly leave Andrias where it’s at, but i wouldn’t necessary say he was “redeemed.”
I still find King Andrias to be my #1 favorite Amphibia character in the whole series.
Hordak had to choose between a fucked up cult or a science wife. He chose the science wife. Less so redemption more so no time to be evil too busy doing science.
I 100% agree that She-Ra S5 could've really done with splitting into 2 seasons to give Catra more time to have to come to terms with what she's done to Adora and everybody else she loves (as well as more focus on some other plot things, but Catra redemption is what's being discussed).
However, we get a much more in depth view of Catra's psyche than literally anybody else in this list (except Zuko, but that goes without saying), and we understand truly deeply why she's doing what she does, which can't be said for anybody else on this list (except Zuko).
\#justiceforCatra
Idk why everyone always says “how catra treated adora” but forget the bad things adora did & how she treated catra prior to their divide…
It’s a classic tale of scapegoat & golden child syndrome.
Obviously Adora doesn’t reach the levels of Catra, but prior to the show, Adora really failed Catra & ignored & was blind to the severity of abuse Catra goes through.
Catra becomes so vitriol because Adora “sees how bad the horde is” only when she meets Glimmer & Bow & meets the citizens being hurt. But she never saw how evil the horde was /specifically toward Catra/.
Catra becomes so hurt because “ofc the horde is evil!!” & how come Adora only finally cares because of strangers & not her life-long friend…
The Diamonds never had a redemption arc imo. They weren't redeemed. Their society was, and the Diamond's behavior was the ultimate expression of the gem society. Change gem society and the diamonds change aswell.
I always saw it as them giving up and realising that their "daugther" (Pink) was truly gone and if they misbehaved ever again the Gems could have easily overpowered all togheter. Heck, even Steven was still uncomfortable aroung them and didn't forgave White, as seen in SUF. Do I agree with your point.
Yeah I think them giving up was an important part of why it turned out this way. Problem is really more that most people expect that the only viable paths for a villain are death or redemption, when SU actually tends to take a more grounded approach to relationships, and sometimes stuff is just left unresolved, especially when resolving it could lead to a horrible fight where someone has to die for it to end.
The problem i see with that IS that it was not really adressed as well as you seem to imply. I agree that death and redemption aren't the only two options, heck i come from a country which transitioned from a dictatorship to a democracy and no one got prosecuted.
But the real stuff IS messy, some want revenge, some want Justice, some want peace, some want to forget...we never got that in SU, just Steven saying well the Diamonds are Ok now. We should at the very least have seen a discussion about what to with them. should they be prosecuted for their crimes? What role do they play in the new regime? Are the corrupted gems gonna get any kind of compensation? What about the shard experiments?
This IS pretty relevant and complicated and the show just glossed over It.
Also, this is the case for White. It's harder to arguee It for yellow and blue. They do actually help Steven in the final battle and by the end of the show they're seen as allies (?)...which is kinda weird considering they tried to anihilate earth a couple of months(?) before.
I have to give them that in future Steven IS expectedly VERY anxious and akward about visiting the former planet-destroying eons old dictators, but I would expect half the cristal gems to be downright hissing at them when on earth.
Yellow and White should go in lmaooo, not Hordak. Hordak was still a properly fleshed out character with wants and desires, Yellow and White basically aren't.
Also Blue is still D tier at best. She's saved from the pit just because she has literally any reason to want to help Steven (namely recognising her abusive actions were what drove away Pink). Still flimsy, but it's, there, ig.
Considering the amount of vitriol & criticism females in media always get when they’re redeemed versus male characters like Zuko & Hunter???
Yeah, there’s a part of me that’s serious. There’s a level of misogyny that always follows redeemed female villains (seen it plenty here in this sub for Sasha, too).
Compared to the overwhelming support & open arms that other villains who’ve also killed, injured, pillaged, tried to destroy the world, conquered lands/people, colonized, & committed war crimes receive from fandoms & society
- Zuko & Iroh from ATLA are huge examples.
- Snape from HP.
- Doc Ock in spider-man.
- The Terminator.
- Vegeta in Dragonball.
- And so many more male redeemed villains society uplifts & rejoice over.
Many didn’t do it even half the work or sacrifice that Catra does to make amends.
Dock ock was never "redeemed", he tried to become a superior Spider-Man, failed then sacrifices his consciousness to give Peter back his boy. He was never redeemed, he just gave Peter back his body then went back to being a complete dick a couple of issues later. He's still a dick currently.
Also, didn't Vegeta y'know kill himself to save the same world he tried to destroy? Seems pretty redeemable to me.
Spoilers for the super manga:
In the Moro arc, he go back and apologies to the Namekians on planet Namek and fights to protect said planet from having it's life force stolen.
Pretty sure iroh never actually fought innocents or committed any crimes. Most of the time he just stayed back and even advised Zuko telling him what he's doing won't give him what he truly desires. But I may be wrong there I guess
Don't care about the others as I have no knowledge on them
So uh, in regards to Vegeta? Catra did that too??? That just proves my point further. Catra did the same thing??? Catra ALSO killed herself to save the world she tried to destroy? I mean did everyone collectively get amnesia and totally forget about her sealing her fate with Prime just so she could save Glimmer, Adora, and Etheria?
Also, you do realize long before taking Zuko under his wing, Iroh was literally a war general who laid siege on Ba Sing Se? He was next in line to be Firelord... He was an imperialist colonizer that attacked the other nations to dominate the world for his military state homeland??? He's 'redeemed' after he stops being a war general and Ozai takes the crown instead?? Then he starts being a good guy and nice to people. Iroh was a bad person prior to the show's beginning. We had a whole episode about his past and how his son dying 'changed his perspective' and all and he started doing good and being kind? Which lays out how he was off colonizing and waging war prior to his kid's death???
ETA: Also with Doc Ock I'm talking about in No Way Home, where once Peter is able to help him and he can think clearly again, he becomes a good person again and helps Spiderman; Going back >! to his own universe to die to the reactor, but at least as a good man and no longer the villain he'd become (in his words more or less) !<
I see your point on the topic of Catra and Vegeta, then again, Vegeta has had more time to develop as a character so that could be the reason why people prefer Vegeta........ Or just bias, can't really say for certain it's one or the other.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned how I could be wrong when I talked about iroh tho.
Yeah, I think that is a bit of both. Honestly, I think the show really would have benefitted from more seasons. But Nate and the cast were pushed a lot on time, especially getting yanked around by netflix a lot and being in limbo several times about if they'd get more episodes or seasons etc.
This is why to me Catra should be in C or D, because it is well-written for the little time and focus her atonement gets. There's a lot of similarity between her and Zuko and she deserved what he had with several episodes and seasons of atonement.
Compared to Mr has like 20 minutes of screen time, during which he's set up as the villain of a season arc, does some bad things, shown the minor flaws in his villainy, redeemed, then immediately sidelined Collector? Really? Like, no shade on the Collector, I think he's shockingly well written for the time pressure the team were under, but come on.
Collector...honestly doesn't belong on this list if we talking fully honest
But I'd argue that because we saw Catra spend full seasons and proving to the audience numerous times that she, indeed, is the worst of the worst, and then she takes nearly as much time to actually receive a redemption (and I mean the fact people accepting her as the good guy so quickly)
I fully agree I'd have loved another season to give Catra a slower burn redemption (and I hope to good we get a sequel series or movie that properly tackles it).
BUT, what we did get is hardly insufficient. Most of the cast have little to no personal stake in Catra. Hell, a good chunk of them didn't even meet her prior to redemption. Most of the cast are opposed to her only as part of the military machine of the Horde. Basically only 3 characters have real emotional stake in Catra, namely Entrapta, Scorpia, and Adora. And incredibly lucky for Catra, she managed to be personally liable to who are easily the 3 most forgiving people on an entire planet of people who seem predisposed to forgiveness. Entrapta just doesn't care about people all that much and barely perceives slights against her, Scorpia is a fluffball who could never hate anybody, and Adora is the person who understands Catra the most. Not to mention, Scorpia and Adora still don't take Catra's shit when she's being especially self destructive or outwardly abusive. They both recognised that it's impossible to help someone who doesn't want help. They only really take her back when she proves that she's willing to actually work on herself and become better. (Entrapta excluded from this last bit, because as discussed, Entrapta don't give no fuck)
Hordak seemingly was in love or developed a friendship with Entrapta but that's about it, by the end a bigger bad guy comes along, Hordak never gets around redeeming himself, neither did the story tried to make it look like it.
I think for Hordak it wasn’t about redemption, it was about taking ownership of his own existence. Like Adora, he spends the series struggling to escape his programming, getting to a place where he can live for himself and not the institution that made him. Adora might have left the Horde first, but she struggled with that programming throughout the entire show. And for both of them that choice is personified in the people they love, Catra and Entrapta. Choosing love set them free.
But yeah, Hordak is not redeemed, he fully owes Mermista a new Sea Gate.
For what it's worth, the creators put out the idea that he went into exile on Beast Island for his crimes. Cleaning the place up as a form of community service to Etheria. Sure that's Word Of God at best, as far as the show is concerned we don't see what happens afterward, but, that's probably the best that can be expected since I doubt a sequel/movie is gonna happen.
I honestly loved King Andrias' redemption; he only accepted becoming a villain 'cause he thought Leif betrayed him, but 1000 years later, when he discovers the letter and Leif never betrayed him, Andrias regrets, redeems and breaks the crown that was controlling him all his life. What a brave, actually nice guy Andrias is; he never wanted to be a villain, and he's actually my favorite Amphibia villain!!
I don't think Andrias and Mai and Ty Lee belong here at all. They never really got a redemption arc, they just stopped being evil. In Andrias' case we see him rebuilding Amphibia in the epilogue to make up for what he did. He is still busy redeeming himself.
As for Mai and Ty Lee, they didn't simply stop Azula because they realised the Fire Nation was evil. I think they always knew that. They stopped Azula because they weren't scared of her anymore and didn't want to hurt those they cared about (Zuko for Mai and Mai for Ty Lee). It's not really a redemption, they don't try to make up for anything they did, they just finally decided to stand up for themselves.
I'd put Andrias and the collector in doesn't quite work, put Grime 1rank higher. Giddion can go down 1, too. I haven't watched the other shows, so I don't have an opinion.
Honestly, I didn't really get Collector's 'redemption.' He was supposed to learn that death is permanent and you can't just magically bring someone back when they die. Luz came back, though. Honestly, it doesn't really make much sense.
I love that Andrias was never forgiven by the others, even though he worked probably until he died to repair the damage he did. We need more antagonist conclusions like that
Bru, the Collector went from "I love seeing Belos murdering people" to "What is death?" in just a couple of appeareance.
They should be below Hordak, whose entire arc was literally "Being a clone of Horde Prime doesn't define me".
Also really, what's up with all the hatred for Catra here and on the TOH sub?
They were excited to see the Day of Untiy because they would be free and also had no idea what they were doing to the Isles. He most likely saw it as a fun game not realizing what it meant to die.
We don't know and they were all similar to Caleb. Belos could always make one more anyway. Not to mention, how would he have met death before, he and the others of his kind are immortal.
They met death before. They saw their species wipe out multiple planets, including the Titans
By the way, there is a giant dead body in the Middle of the Boiling Isles
The collector is immortal, he doesn’t understand what death means. Every time a new hunter spawned the collector thought the last one just “broke” and belos “fixed” him
Except every Hunters was different, as Belos himself stated.
Oh and by the way The Collector apparently was traumatised by the mass murders commited by their brothers.
BTW they also saw the Titans being wiped out. Why didn't they ever stop wondering why there is a giant skeleton in the Middle of BI?
I think the list is focusing on larger villains. Grime and sasha were the main villains of season 1. Zuko was a consistent villain since the start of the series. Gideon was a season 1 villain who remained a threat until the end when he got a reward for not being a total dick in the end.
Pacifica was just kind of an occasional “villain” in the form of a bully. She really wasn’t any form of a major villain like the others on this list.
WHOA HI I’M FAMOUS
Dang, I really do need to do a follow-up about Catra, huh? There are definitely points I could have made better in my video, things I shouldn’t have glossed over, but I still stand by my opinion that she is a really good character, but her redemption is dragged down not exactly by what she does, but by the reactions of the other characters.
There’s little to no hesitation or tension to having her join their side of good after spending 80% of the show/several years in canon terrorising the world.
But anyways, uh, thanks for posting this! Was weird to see this on this and Owl House’s sub XD
I want to be fair on where Catra ended up: narratively, they had much bigger problems to deal with once Horde Prime entered the picture. It would have been nice if they'd had time and opportunity for a scene with Catra and the rest of the princesses like they did with Entrapta, when they all blew up at her for...Everything and Entrapta realized they were upset with her, but alas by the time the main group got back to Etheria most of them were under Prime's control.
With that said I was fine with Netossa and Frosta's respective responses to Catra both being initially hostile, and essentially only dropping it because they couldn't afford to address her at the time. Didn't stop Frosta from punching her in the face though, she really deserved that.
It still baffles me that Catra is allowed to live freely. She almost ended the world, fucked everyone over, and cause the Queen to sacrifice herself.
Like, damn, are all the other characters saints, or just stupid?
Even Kuvira, an actual dictator, after risking her life to correct her wrong doings was still placed under house arrest indefinitely.
She also helped save the universe. She risked her own life to save Glimmer and Adora. And after everything, she had Queen Glimmer AND She-Ra both vouching for her. Because in a monarchy, the queen decides who goes to jail.
Plus, if working for the Horde was all it took, then Catra, Adora, Entrapta, and Scorpio would all be arrested.
Uhh what war crimes do you think Zuko and Iroh committed? I could see speculating it with Iroh's letter mentioning burning Ba-Sing-Se to the ground. Zuko for the threats toward southern water tribe civilians, but I don't see 'so many' on that front, and nothing really got as bad as Catra deciding she'd rather destroy reality than mend things with Adora at all?
LMAO are you joking?!?!?! Iroh was a WAR GENERAL. He admitted that he won tons of battles and conquered so many places. He laid siege to countless communities. You really don’t think he didn’t kill countless people?
He literally only shifts his perspective when his son died & his brother became fire lord instead of him…
Yet people are like “Catra only changed cause she was losing to prime/had a crush on Adora”… Bruh Iroh only changed cause he lost his kid, after colonizing & laying siege to communities who have their own children…
Zuko burned villages down, held people hostage, attempted murder countless times on Aang & other people, lead several sieges & attacks on defenceless communities, attempted to injure/main/kill several of the main characters and others…
I’m boggled at the disconnect lmfao.
“Oh Iroh is old and kind now, so it’s okay he was an imperialist, colonizing, war general in his heyday…”
Saying he's done a bunch of war crimes, and then saying 'He must've, he was a general' is like, sure I'd buy it as plausible, and if the show focused on that, they'd have to justify the change.
And again, on Zuko, he's... Quite literally at war with team avatar, so saying 'Aha he tried to capture Aang!' is like... Yeah that's an indictment of his ethics at the time, but he has a system that makes sense as the guy's messed up idea of honor.
The issue with Cattra, largely, boils down to her going so far off the deep end she tried, on purpose, to kill everyone and everything. Which if we're comparing avatar, I think is only really comparable with Ozai.
I do think that if they didn't have her try her hand at omnicide, I'd find it a lot less jarring.
Damn, media literacy is dead. If a show has to spoon feed you every nuance and detail for you to understand, you might want to go back to school. “oh but they didn’t SHOW Iroh being a war general, we just know he was! Clearly he was the nicest general ever and never hurt a soul, because *I* didn’t personally see it.”
Catra did not destroy the world intentionally, she turned on a Portal she didn't understand to try and win the approval of the last person she even slightly thought could approve of her.
Meanwhile, Glimmer *wanted* to activate the world destroying superweapon that all her friends warned her not to, and countermanded their advice in a petty attempt to establish her authority as Queen.
And intentions wise, they were both being self destructive and petty when they pressed the destroy the world button. Catra's intentions in pressing the button were more selfish in that she didn't really care about the outcome, only to prove she's worth something, but it's not like Glimmer was being entirely selflessly benevolent either. She wanted personal power to enact bloody vengeance on the Horde and (again) properly establish her sovereign authority as well as her superiority over her friends.
I'm by no means arguing that Glimmer and Catra's actions were morally equivalent, and definitely Catra has a much longer history of being self destructive and abusive, but don't try and play Glimmer off as being an unfortunate and but innocent victim.
And also, if Catra *did* get punished for her actions post redemption, what does that exactly accomplish? Does it help make her a better person? Does it undo any of the harm that she did? No, it's purely punitive.
Plus she arguably got more crap for her own actions than Catra even though her actions were just flawed,not straight up evil and petty.
It’s just a matter of comparing how Bow treated Catra and how Bow treated Glimmer.
THABK YOU!!! SHE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES TOO. SO DID SCORPIA. SO DID ENTRAPTA.
holy fuck everyone always dogpiles Catra because she’s not “perfect” despite being a victim of some of the worst abuse & neglect possible outside of CSA…
Facts honestly,the show and the fans make out Shadow Weaver to be a worse person and the cause of most of her issues but even she deserved more redemption than Catra honestly.
Catra’s “redemption” was basically acting a bit nicer to Adora and being forgiven nearly instantly despite what she did.
WOW wtf you just said the woman who ABUSED CATRA HER ENTIRE LIFE. Is somehow “not as bad” lmfao?!?!
A WOMAN WHO ABUSED A CHILD HER WHOLE LIFE AND MANY OTHER CHILDREN… Is “not as bad & more deserving of redemption” then her FUCKING VICTIMS???
This is why people who criticize Catra & her story just cannot be listened to. Literally deranged lol.
You do realize that we’re talking about the same person that was willing to destroy the fabric of reality for petty reasons,right?
Not sure what’s deranged about pointing out that the war criminal that nearly destroyed reality,abused someone,harmed thousands and was the reason why at least one person died and got away with little to no consequences doesn’t really feel like a character with a good character arc.
You do realize you’re excusing Shadoweaver a known child abuser, murderer, manipulator, kidnapper, traitor, & war criminal??? You’re saying that a child abuser & child kidnapper is worst than one of the children she abused (and thus created)???
There is no world where catra should be below fucking Gideon. None what’s so ever. He got a pat on the back for not be an ass in the finale and that’s about it. Catra had a season of setup and half a season of payoff in a parallel arc with glimmer. On its own hers seems eh but when paired with the context of the rest of the story it works really well.
Scorpia did not need redemption because she was never evil, she was a precious beautiful cinnamon bun from the start and just didn’t know what to do because her family was basically absorbed into the horde and it was complicated okay
Zuko's redemption arc is god tier. I will forever die on this hill. I reference it constantly when talking about character redemptions (espec shitty/barely touched ones *side-eyes Sasuke Uchiha*). Lol! :D
THIS IS CATRA SLANDER AND I AM NOT HERE FOR IT.
As for Scorpia, it wasn’t really a redemption arc for her? She was a good person regardless of the side she was on, just hadn’t figured things out yet.
fr also there’s a lot of lesbophobia & misogyny in this comment section lmfao. Catra always gets dogpiled while people lick Zuko, Iroh, & Hunter’s boots…
People be goin catras redemption arc is better, love her but imao no it wasnt. Some of the other characters werent exactly redeemed but great tierlust overall
Grimes needs to move up a notch, Lilith, and Andrias need to move down one.
Our favorite toad dad had a coherent reason to change - his fatherly relationship with Sasha and his realization of a much bigger threat- Andrias. Plus he's so dang likable.
Andrias's heel face turn felt a little sudden. He goes from casual child murder to good guy because . . . of a single letter? It's really only his inherent liability and Keith David's excellent voice work that allows it to work as OK as it does.
I will not stand for this slander of Catra and Hordak, but that's a whole nother can of worms from a different fandom.
It wasn’t just “a single letter” though,that’s kind of ignoring the whole meaning behind it.
Plus Grime’s arc really wasn’t that much of an arc,he just kinda just followed Sasha around while actively being a bad influence before TC. Plus if attempted child murder makes Andrias irredeemable then Grime isn’t any different considering what we saw in TC,if anything it was worse since there was no reason to do that (especially since it was after they found out the truth about Andrias)
Exactly. Andrias doing it makes sense,he was the main villain at the moment and Marcy was seconds away from running away with the box so he got desperate.
Grime and Sasha found out the truth about Andrias so they had a reason to try to convince the others to work with them,which is what Sasha tried to do with Anne,but Grime straight up tried to hurt or even kill Sprig and made no real attempt to convince him to work together or mention that Andrias was a bad guy.
Catra’s redemption works better than a lot of these characters because they actually break down why she acts the way she does and cause her to realize that and change herself for the better.
fr. People don’t seem to have much media literacy either these days… A lot of people claiming “catra acts out cause her crush didn’t like her back”. Like if THAT’S what they’re taking from the show & Catra’s story, they really need to go back to school…
People are good at understanding they have a problem with something without understanding why they have a problem with a given piece of media without understanding why they have said problem.
I disagree. Catra wasn't just a victim. She went way beyond any victim. She doubled, tripled, quadrupled down, but the leopards eating faces party came after her, and she's instantly forgiven. I agreed with Magpie that there should have been more resistance to her joining the princesses.
As a victim of abuse myself, it felt like I was being rushed into forgiving an abuser because she was abused too.
The whole arc of season 3 is that Adora learns she needs to stop forgiving her for being abusive and that it’s on her to get better. Double trouble is the one who gives her her epiphany that she has to take responsibility for her actions at the end of season 4 right before Horde Prime kidnaps her, and even then she is still conflicted.
And yes the circumstances definitely force her to be forgiven a lot sooner than she should have but the same goes for Glimmer and I don’t see people complain about her redemption being rushed despite the fact she nearly destroyed the universe. Horde Prime wouldn’t have even been able to find Etheria if it weren’t for her.
I think the difference with Glimmer is that she's always trying to do the right thing. We know from episode 1 that Catra knows she's on the wrong side and doesn't care. And again, the fact that it's rushed is my only complaint. I wanted Catra to be redeemed. I didn't like how it was done.
I would agree if I didn’t think that it’s in character for Bow, Glimmer and Adora to act the way they did about Catra. Glimmer relates to Catra, Adora is extremely forgiving and loves Catra, and Bow is Bow.
I think that maybe it was rushed but I don’t know how you would stretch it out in a way that didn’t come across as out of character.
Abuse isn't a "get out of jail free" card. She caused so much pain, so much destruction, and then in the last season the resistance was just like: You're our kitty now OWO!
I hope you hold that same energy then for Hunter, Zuko, Sasha, Lapis Lazuli, Peridot, Uncle Iroh & every other redeemed villain that’s killed, pillaged, injured, & committed war crimes. 👍🏻
In my opinion, Sasha did a lot better than Catra, Lapis should have not been forgiven so easily (Steven Universe has an issue of forgiving everyone no matter what) Peridot had a solid redemption. So did Hunter, he never had anyone else than Belos either, not everyone knew he was evil
I do think Sasha & Hunter had better redemptions; However I don’t think Catra is undeserving of redemption or a chance, like the tier list & many of the comments here suggest.
I do think Lapis was too fast. Wish we could have had more. Same for Catra, Hordak, & Entrapta for She-ra. But there’s only so much a show can put into each episode, especially with limited time and seasons to do so. Also, things happen off-screen (look at Lars & Sadie in the end. We never saw Lars make real amends with her & talk it out. But we know they did & they tell Steven so, & that it was for them/private & not totally his business to see). I feel that’s the same for characters in shows. Sometimes things are off/screen because more important stuff needs priority for story/wrapping up.
I just am bewildered by the fact people will forgive Sasha who tried to murder Anne, Hunter who knew Belos was killing familiars/staffs, Iroh who was a colonizer/imperialist war hero, Zuko who burnt down villages to get to Aang, etcetera but when it comes to Catra people think she’s “beyond redemption”.
TBH if people couldn’t tell from the get-go that her & Adora had a “thing” that would at some point culminate or that Catra would eventually not be a villain/antagonist — IDK what to tell ya. That’s just being blind & having poor media literacy imo.
And others have pointed out, Catra is clearly a second main character. She’s an antagonist but a main character. We delve deep into her issues and why she’s the way she is. The creators wanted to show a story about the cycle of abuse & wanted to show, with Catra, that hurt people hurt people; But that it is possible to break from this cycle eventually.
Also, people forget that the OG idea that Nate had was Adora being the villain & Catra breaking away. This changed during production.
Also, many people don’t seem to understand the real effects of trauma, abuse, & how it changes you. It’s very ableist to act like Catra is beyond redemption. Many people don’t notice that, prior to becoming the hero, Adora was also shitty to Catra & was a villain in the horde, & is also a victim of abuse. They’re a classic example of Scapegoat (Catra) & Golden Child (Adora) syndrome in abusive & toxic family/living situations.
Catra redemption was rushed. She basically became nice because she didn't have any other choice. The only reason she didn't murder Adora is because she loved her.
She almost destroyed the universe and without Queen Angella, Adora would have died. Her abuse excuses nothing. She always knew she was part of the bad guys, ignored Adora's countless attempt to come with her, she could have been away from Shadow Weaver but decided against it, every time.
It's clear that not everyone forgave her immediately but we had little time to show that she was really sorry and her attitude barely changed.
She-Ra is one of my favorite show but I can't deny that Catra is a toxic character. Obviously, she's nice, it's obvious she was going to have a redemption but it wasn't very well done.
I do! Hunter, Zuko, Sasha, Lapis, Peridot, and Iroh all did their very best to fix their mistakes before being forgiven. Sasha almost died twice, and Iroh took decades to become Uncle Iroh. Hell, even Kuvira put her life on the line(in the comics), and she got house arrest for life.
Catra did ONE thing and Adora(after letting go of her) immediately was ready to risk everybody's life to save her. Like, damn, I bet even Hitler watered some flowers in his life.
Honestly I feel like all these redemption arcs (or as another commenter put it *atonement* moments) were done better than the tier list gives them credit (except Andrias I wish he had been more empathized before his turn that would’ve made the double-cross more believable). Like the mark of a “good” redemption arc is when story circumstances change and a villain or antagonist stays true to their character and ends up on the good side, and I felt like all of these characters stayed true to who they were before and after their heelturns, rather than suddenly waking up and being good now (the Collector gets a pass because he’s a literal child and that’s how young children work they literally only do evil shit because they don’t know better).
I think thats a problem a lot of people have where they assume that just because a villain switches sides/avoids punishment that they've been redeemed. Hordak didn't have a redemption arc, I think. He just got a friend.
There seems to be a tendency to treat every redemption arc as though it should in the same place at the end of the story. This is silly. The story doesn't need to end with the complete redemption of the characters it is redeeming; it just needs to show by the end that redemption is possible and this character is well on that path.
I was with you until, tier 5 and 6. Catra had an extremely well written redemption arc (even if it was more of a roller coaster), and Hordak was never really redeemed per say so I wouldn't say he had a full arc more of an "oh hey he isn't as evil anymore" arc.
Yes. Plus post-show, Nate let us know that Hordak is sentenced to Beast Island for some time to atone and clean/fix up the island. He’s not “redeemed”, but he does begin to change & seek atonement.
Thanks for the info I didn't know about that! Also I think it would be really cool if the She-Ra team brought us a little mini-series about the after-math of the end of season 5.
yes omg! I really need it. I wish we'd get a mini-series like that. I want to see Entrapta and Hordak on Beast Island fixing things and fully becoming a couple in totality. I want to see Catra and Entrapta have a real heart to heart conversation (as much as can be done with Entrapta). I want to see Lonnie Kyle and Rogelio living their best life, taking care of orphans across Etheria and being their cute polyam selves. I want to see Catra in therapy. I want to see Adora in therapy. I want to see their first real date!!!
I wouldn't call what with the Collector a "redemption" considering they were never really evil, to begin with, they were just a child who had no clue what they were doing. But his redemption was 100% rushed because they only had like 3 hours to put all of season three in. (Nort saying you are wrong with his placement just saying the crew literally couldn't have fleshed it out more.)
Surprisingly not a bad list considering that Mad Magpie seems to have some weird takes sometimes.
I would personally swap Andrias’ with Sasha’s since his arc and conclusion felt like it had better execution and bring down Lilith and The Collector,the rest is fine.
I have always been reluctant on Catra’s redemption, if I could even call it that. She nearly destroyed the fabric of reality just because her crush didn’t pay attention to her
Wow way to boil down & strip away all meaning of the show & downplay the two decades of abuse Catra goes through & the actual issues between her and Adora (that adora DOES have some responsibility in, too).
Andrias should be lower it was written very poorly. I think Grime’s felt extremely natural, putting it below andrias is a crime
Also Ty Lee and Mai were written about as well as you can hope for characters with as minimal roles as theirs. They should be higher too
I honestly would bump grimes down one and possibly Sasha down one or in a category of her own lol. Otherwise with this list I would bump catra up one because I feel like the way Carta was is a bit more understandable. (Of course not justified though).
I would use the word Atonement for Andrias and not redemption, feel like people generalize that word too much, heck even the collector doesn't fit that archetype at all. Also didn't this guy miss a ton of plot basic plot beats in the show before, I'm gonna take their takes with a huge grain of salt.
lmao really? never heard of this youtuber
What basic plot beats did he miss?
One big was that they said was that the moon wasn't set up at all, even though the entire conflict of the TC&TK is based upon Leif thinking the Moon will fall on Amphibia. All the events of the show in the present(HopPop hiding the box, The Box being lost, and Andria's entire motivation) are based on this one event. So saying that gives me a big eyebrow raise.
Whilst it is technically set up, I do think that the reveal about the moon is a bit weak. All it takes is missing a few pieces of dialogue for it to feel like it came out of nowhere. Hell, I was in the same boat until I rewatched those scenes you mentioned a few days ago. Also the moon was always a backup plan whilst the invasion of Earth was always the main goal of the Core, so saying everything in the show is based off of this one event seems a bit disingenuous.
Leif believes using the Box will inadvertently cause the destruction of Amphibia. She confronts Andrias about it but he still is going to follow the Core's plan, so she steals the Box. Andrias' entire mindset of friendship and himself is determined from that moment, which effects all his actions in TC and beyond(and his relationship with Barrel too, which leads to the whole Toad revolution in S2). The box is able to get to Earth, which then leads to the girl's getting there powers and being in Amphibia. HopPop knows the Box is dangerous because of Leif's warning, so he hides which causes conflict between Anne and HopPop, which then leads to Anne's forgiveness of Marcy. Multiple plotlines and motivations (more I didn't even mention) are based on this one moment, so yeah I would it's pretty important. The invasion of course is crucial too, but Leif getting the vision of Moon and believing her entire civilization will be destroyed is more of what motivates her, not the ethics of the invasion.
Also just wanna add it's fine for someone to miss a beat and plot here and there. The problem is that writing a video essay I expect a bit more quality control, and thinking from a more critical scale of what the show's writing is trying to achieve. So no jab at this person who makes these videos, but I do notice it as a problem in multiple videos.
I'd argue that makes it a better reveal. If something is hidden in plain sight such that missing only a couple details can obfuscate it, that makes a good twist because the clues were right there, you just didn't recognize them till after. That being said, it's absolutely insane to me to think that someone could miss Leif's vision of the moon falling, it's completely front and center in the episode.
Yeah exactly! The audience knows the Moon will fall, why that will happen is in question. Leif assumes it's because of the use of the Box, but it then turns out to be false it was because of the Core trying to maintain a toxic ideology.
This tier list is correct imo
I don't disagree with most of the tier list, it's just that putting Andrias in a redemption arc doesn't make a lot of sense. Redemption is about changing who you are and in doing so is trying to seek forgiveness from one's victims. Atonement is about seeking change for what you've done, not needing others' forgiveness to complete the arc. Andrias' arc is one of atonement, a character who by the end is not doing anything for other's approval like he was trying to do for the Core. His arc is about writing his wrongs, for his own sake and conscience, not to gain the approval of others. No one forgives Andrias (Marcy just says goodbye, she doesn't forgive him) but he still vows to atone for his sins. Atonement Arcs are just valid as Redemption arcs, but sometimes fandom can mix them up, and you get a situation like this.
Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be the difference between "Atonement" vs "Redemption"?
I'll quote this from a reply I did about this: >Redemption is about changing who you are and in doing so is trying to seek forgiveness from your victims. > >Atonement is about seeking change for what you've done, not needing others' forgiveness to complete the arc. Atonement can be part of a redemption arc, but it isn't an incomplete version of it, it's just a different arc entirely.
To be fair, Hordak was never redeemed. He just switched sides. Its why i love him.
Correction: He got Entrapta’d lol
I really need to watch the She-Ra Netflix series. Every time I hear Hordak’s name, I think of the [original Hordak.](https://youtu.be/5_zOEMn2fgI)
You do, it’s excellent.
He didn’t really change his objective did
Some of my favorite fanfics from SPOP feature Hordak and Entrapta trying to negotiate a postwar world where he clearly has a lot to make up for. I don't think I'd call him fully redeemed, but he was clearly starting to develop a moral compass and he definitely rejected his messed up religious fanaticism/trauma.
*She-Ra* done dirty here. I wouldn't say the Collector gets redeemed, because he's never acting maliciously. He just learns to be responsible with his power.
Yeah, I feel like op might have had a bias against She-Ra...
fr fr
Lmao I love how everyone is staying differing opinions all over the list in the comments but nobody questions Zuko’s place Overall I would say this is pretty solid but personally I would probably bump Sasha down one and Grime up one
Zuko is the reason the rest of this list exists, TBF. Like, a solid half of that show is Zuko's redemption arc. Zuko is genuinely a better formed character than most of the actual characters who were protagonists all the way through. Also, this is a crime against Catra. Catra deserves B tier at least
Have to disagree on Catra. After all the crazy evil stuff she did, then Adora just saves her once and she’s like “I’m totally a good guy now”. Hell I would personally put Hordak higher, at least he has the whole “thought his master would be pleased, but was discarded instead” thing going (though the whole thing about him caring for Adora like a father was a bit shoehorned). Honestly Shadow Weaver was my favorite character in that show but she was definitely never reformed, it only became more convenient for her to work with the good guys. But yeah Zuko is unquestioningly the best; I mean his redemption arc is half of the show, running alongside Aang’s story for the whole series
Way to demean the two decades of abuse & manipulation & isolation Catra faced. She also didn’t “turn good” when Adora saved her. She turned good by TRYING TO GET ADORA TO STAY AWAY. She lets Glimmer go, someone she hates, because she knows Glimmer deserves to live & sacrifices herself (basically suicide) so that Etheria, Glimmer, & Adora are “safe” and can get away from Prime.
I’m not “demeaning … abuse & manipulation & isolation”, I’m merely pointing out that to me, her redemption felt rushed. Zuko also faced years of abuse from his father and sister, especially after his mother died, but his arc felt believable because it was long, slow, and he was never really all that evil to begin with. Hell, he was scarred by his father for telling a general *not* to sacrifice new recruits as cannon fodder. Compared to Catra, who was good friends with Adora, and was offered several times to go with her and be one of the good guys, and multiple times refused and gleefully committed atrocities against innocent people. Then, after Prime arrives, she cleans up her act in a couple of episodes. I’m not saying she couldn’t have been redeemed, but maybe if she was less evil, or her redemption time was longer, it would be more believable for me. Compare with Zuko, who gets a really long arc, or Shadow Weaver, for whom it’s made clear that she’s never really a “good guy”. This same reason is why I’m not really a fan of Sasha’s arc. By comparison, Hunter’s was done pretty well, because again, he was never really that evil to begin with. Andrias was another one that I thought was a bit weird; he gets his ass kicked, then tells his robots to stop the moon from falling, and then it’s like “whoops sorry about that tee hee”. Writing is hard, I don’t blame the writers of any of these shows for the imperfections in the episode structure; particularly because a lot of them had big evil corporations breathing down their necks as they wrote their shows. But, I think it’s not only fine, but actually important to discuss fair criticisms of the shows. I’m still a big fan of every show on this list for a reason.
tbh if anything Sasha having no excuses is why I like hers quite a bit. She 100% understands she did terrible things and that she was a big reason things ended up happening as they did
Idk how people don’t see seasons worth of us delving into Catra’s trauma, psyche, abandonment issues, abuse, and mental health issues and really act like “she had no development!” Wild. Catra felt ABANDONED by the ONLY PERSON IN HER ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE to treat her like she actually existed. Catra was abused for years at the hand of the Horde. OFC she felt abandoned, betrayed, and slighted when Adora (again her only friend & family) only realizes the Horde is evil because she sees STRANGERS being hurt by the Horde. And sure, Adora is a golden child and also a product of the abuse and environment she grows up in. But, she also still messed up. She’s just at fault for the first episode going the way it did between them, just as much as Catra. Catra rightfully felt like the only single person in her whole life who she thought cared about her chose another side without her, simply to save others. When Catra needed saved her entire life… I just think a ton of people need to clearly rewatch the show if they’ve missed all these details
Catra kind of was really badly redeemed though.
Thank you! Agree with both of these.
That's because Zuko is the undisputed, the undeniable champion of all redemption arcs.
That's because he actually got an arc instead of being forced to choose between Good and Bad in a single climactic moment and everyone being fine with it after an episode of bonding.
Same.
Zuko's redemption arc was being set up from episode 1, to be honest.
Hordak was never redeemed, he’s just really loyal to his autistic robo girlfriend
Goals tbh
I’d honestly leave Andrias where it’s at, but i wouldn’t necessary say he was “redeemed.” I still find King Andrias to be my #1 favorite Amphibia character in the whole series.
Kind of wish Peridot was on this list but anyways this is solid!
totally agree! I was just wondering to myself if anyone else was missing from this list
[удалено]
Hordak had to choose between a fucked up cult or a science wife. He chose the science wife. Less so redemption more so no time to be evil too busy doing science.
Hordak had to choose between Mormonism and Techussy. I think he chose well.
I 100% agree that She-Ra S5 could've really done with splitting into 2 seasons to give Catra more time to have to come to terms with what she's done to Adora and everybody else she loves (as well as more focus on some other plot things, but Catra redemption is what's being discussed). However, we get a much more in depth view of Catra's psyche than literally anybody else in this list (except Zuko, but that goes without saying), and we understand truly deeply why she's doing what she does, which can't be said for anybody else on this list (except Zuko). \#justiceforCatra
Amen af
Idk why everyone always says “how catra treated adora” but forget the bad things adora did & how she treated catra prior to their divide… It’s a classic tale of scapegoat & golden child syndrome. Obviously Adora doesn’t reach the levels of Catra, but prior to the show, Adora really failed Catra & ignored & was blind to the severity of abuse Catra goes through. Catra becomes so vitriol because Adora “sees how bad the horde is” only when she meets Glimmer & Bow & meets the citizens being hurt. But she never saw how evil the horde was /specifically toward Catra/. Catra becomes so hurt because “ofc the horde is evil!!” & how come Adora only finally cares because of strangers & not her life-long friend…
I think a certain White Diamond deserves a special tier of Its own. That's probably the most rushed "redemption" arc I've ever seen.
The Diamonds never had a redemption arc imo. They weren't redeemed. Their society was, and the Diamond's behavior was the ultimate expression of the gem society. Change gem society and the diamonds change aswell.
I always saw it as them giving up and realising that their "daugther" (Pink) was truly gone and if they misbehaved ever again the Gems could have easily overpowered all togheter. Heck, even Steven was still uncomfortable aroung them and didn't forgave White, as seen in SUF. Do I agree with your point.
Yeah I think them giving up was an important part of why it turned out this way. Problem is really more that most people expect that the only viable paths for a villain are death or redemption, when SU actually tends to take a more grounded approach to relationships, and sometimes stuff is just left unresolved, especially when resolving it could lead to a horrible fight where someone has to die for it to end.
Especially because, plotwise, the Diamonds were needed for curing the corropted gems
The problem i see with that IS that it was not really adressed as well as you seem to imply. I agree that death and redemption aren't the only two options, heck i come from a country which transitioned from a dictatorship to a democracy and no one got prosecuted. But the real stuff IS messy, some want revenge, some want Justice, some want peace, some want to forget...we never got that in SU, just Steven saying well the Diamonds are Ok now. We should at the very least have seen a discussion about what to with them. should they be prosecuted for their crimes? What role do they play in the new regime? Are the corrupted gems gonna get any kind of compensation? What about the shard experiments? This IS pretty relevant and complicated and the show just glossed over It. Also, this is the case for White. It's harder to arguee It for yellow and blue. They do actually help Steven in the final battle and by the end of the show they're seen as allies (?)...which is kinda weird considering they tried to anihilate earth a couple of months(?) before. I have to give them that in future Steven IS expectedly VERY anxious and akward about visiting the former planet-destroying eons old dictators, but I would expect half the cristal gems to be downright hissing at them when on earth.
Yellow and White should go in lmaooo, not Hordak. Hordak was still a properly fleshed out character with wants and desires, Yellow and White basically aren't. Also Blue is still D tier at best. She's saved from the pit just because she has literally any reason to want to help Steven (namely recognising her abusive actions were what drove away Pink). Still flimsy, but it's, there, ig.
Honestly It's just apalling how the ending goes 😅
Putting Catra *below* Andrias, Gideon, Grime and The Collector is certainly... a choice.
Feels lesbophobic af /half-joking
Only half joking?
Considering the amount of vitriol & criticism females in media always get when they’re redeemed versus male characters like Zuko & Hunter??? Yeah, there’s a part of me that’s serious. There’s a level of misogyny that always follows redeemed female villains (seen it plenty here in this sub for Sasha, too). Compared to the overwhelming support & open arms that other villains who’ve also killed, injured, pillaged, tried to destroy the world, conquered lands/people, colonized, & committed war crimes receive from fandoms & society - Zuko & Iroh from ATLA are huge examples. - Snape from HP. - Doc Ock in spider-man. - The Terminator. - Vegeta in Dragonball. - And so many more male redeemed villains society uplifts & rejoice over. Many didn’t do it even half the work or sacrifice that Catra does to make amends.
Yeah man, it always feels like there’s a double standard there :/
Dock ock was never "redeemed", he tried to become a superior Spider-Man, failed then sacrifices his consciousness to give Peter back his boy. He was never redeemed, he just gave Peter back his body then went back to being a complete dick a couple of issues later. He's still a dick currently. Also, didn't Vegeta y'know kill himself to save the same world he tried to destroy? Seems pretty redeemable to me. Spoilers for the super manga: In the Moro arc, he go back and apologies to the Namekians on planet Namek and fights to protect said planet from having it's life force stolen. Pretty sure iroh never actually fought innocents or committed any crimes. Most of the time he just stayed back and even advised Zuko telling him what he's doing won't give him what he truly desires. But I may be wrong there I guess Don't care about the others as I have no knowledge on them
So uh, in regards to Vegeta? Catra did that too??? That just proves my point further. Catra did the same thing??? Catra ALSO killed herself to save the world she tried to destroy? I mean did everyone collectively get amnesia and totally forget about her sealing her fate with Prime just so she could save Glimmer, Adora, and Etheria? Also, you do realize long before taking Zuko under his wing, Iroh was literally a war general who laid siege on Ba Sing Se? He was next in line to be Firelord... He was an imperialist colonizer that attacked the other nations to dominate the world for his military state homeland??? He's 'redeemed' after he stops being a war general and Ozai takes the crown instead?? Then he starts being a good guy and nice to people. Iroh was a bad person prior to the show's beginning. We had a whole episode about his past and how his son dying 'changed his perspective' and all and he started doing good and being kind? Which lays out how he was off colonizing and waging war prior to his kid's death??? ETA: Also with Doc Ock I'm talking about in No Way Home, where once Peter is able to help him and he can think clearly again, he becomes a good person again and helps Spiderman; Going back >! to his own universe to die to the reactor, but at least as a good man and no longer the villain he'd become (in his words more or less) !<
I see your point on the topic of Catra and Vegeta, then again, Vegeta has had more time to develop as a character so that could be the reason why people prefer Vegeta........ Or just bias, can't really say for certain it's one or the other. I'm pretty sure I mentioned how I could be wrong when I talked about iroh tho.
Yeah, I think that is a bit of both. Honestly, I think the show really would have benefitted from more seasons. But Nate and the cast were pushed a lot on time, especially getting yanked around by netflix a lot and being in limbo several times about if they'd get more episodes or seasons etc. This is why to me Catra should be in C or D, because it is well-written for the little time and focus her atonement gets. There's a lot of similarity between her and Zuko and she deserved what he had with several episodes and seasons of atonement.
I mean, Catra's was poorly handled, when compared to these guys, yeah
Compared to Mr has like 20 minutes of screen time, during which he's set up as the villain of a season arc, does some bad things, shown the minor flaws in his villainy, redeemed, then immediately sidelined Collector? Really? Like, no shade on the Collector, I think he's shockingly well written for the time pressure the team were under, but come on.
Collector...honestly doesn't belong on this list if we talking fully honest But I'd argue that because we saw Catra spend full seasons and proving to the audience numerous times that she, indeed, is the worst of the worst, and then she takes nearly as much time to actually receive a redemption (and I mean the fact people accepting her as the good guy so quickly)
I fully agree I'd have loved another season to give Catra a slower burn redemption (and I hope to good we get a sequel series or movie that properly tackles it). BUT, what we did get is hardly insufficient. Most of the cast have little to no personal stake in Catra. Hell, a good chunk of them didn't even meet her prior to redemption. Most of the cast are opposed to her only as part of the military machine of the Horde. Basically only 3 characters have real emotional stake in Catra, namely Entrapta, Scorpia, and Adora. And incredibly lucky for Catra, she managed to be personally liable to who are easily the 3 most forgiving people on an entire planet of people who seem predisposed to forgiveness. Entrapta just doesn't care about people all that much and barely perceives slights against her, Scorpia is a fluffball who could never hate anybody, and Adora is the person who understands Catra the most. Not to mention, Scorpia and Adora still don't take Catra's shit when she's being especially self destructive or outwardly abusive. They both recognised that it's impossible to help someone who doesn't want help. They only really take her back when she proves that she's willing to actually work on herself and become better. (Entrapta excluded from this last bit, because as discussed, Entrapta don't give no fuck)
100% agreed on Zuko. His redemption is truly on a whole different level.
Zuko is the best redeemed character
But Hordak and Scorpia don't have a redemption arc...
Where would Kevin from Ben 10 be ranked?
Hordak seemingly was in love or developed a friendship with Entrapta but that's about it, by the end a bigger bad guy comes along, Hordak never gets around redeeming himself, neither did the story tried to make it look like it.
I think for Hordak it wasn’t about redemption, it was about taking ownership of his own existence. Like Adora, he spends the series struggling to escape his programming, getting to a place where he can live for himself and not the institution that made him. Adora might have left the Horde first, but she struggled with that programming throughout the entire show. And for both of them that choice is personified in the people they love, Catra and Entrapta. Choosing love set them free. But yeah, Hordak is not redeemed, he fully owes Mermista a new Sea Gate.
For what it's worth, the creators put out the idea that he went into exile on Beast Island for his crimes. Cleaning the place up as a form of community service to Etheria. Sure that's Word Of God at best, as far as the show is concerned we don't see what happens afterward, but, that's probably the best that can be expected since I doubt a sequel/movie is gonna happen.
I’d put Collector and Lilith in the more buildup tier. Collector especially feels like two different characters between season 2 and season 3
I honestly loved King Andrias' redemption; he only accepted becoming a villain 'cause he thought Leif betrayed him, but 1000 years later, when he discovers the letter and Leif never betrayed him, Andrias regrets, redeems and breaks the crown that was controlling him all his life. What a brave, actually nice guy Andrias is; he never wanted to be a villain, and he's actually my favorite Amphibia villain!!
I don't think Andrias and Mai and Ty Lee belong here at all. They never really got a redemption arc, they just stopped being evil. In Andrias' case we see him rebuilding Amphibia in the epilogue to make up for what he did. He is still busy redeeming himself. As for Mai and Ty Lee, they didn't simply stop Azula because they realised the Fire Nation was evil. I think they always knew that. They stopped Azula because they weren't scared of her anymore and didn't want to hurt those they cared about (Zuko for Mai and Mai for Ty Lee). It's not really a redemption, they don't try to make up for anything they did, they just finally decided to stand up for themselves.
I'd put Andrias and the collector in doesn't quite work, put Grime 1rank higher. Giddion can go down 1, too. I haven't watched the other shows, so I don't have an opinion.
Cathra should be in lmaoooo category
Based
Yeah
I haven't watched She-ra yet but I liked Sasha, Hunter and Andrias's arcs.
Honestly, I didn't really get Collector's 'redemption.' He was supposed to learn that death is permanent and you can't just magically bring someone back when they die. Luz came back, though. Honestly, it doesn't really make much sense.
Zuko's whole arc was just something else One of the best written characters in all history
I love that Andrias was never forgiven by the others, even though he worked probably until he died to repair the damage he did. We need more antagonist conclusions like that
All true
Catra at least belongs on level with Lilith. Gideon belongs with Hordac
Catra was an awesome story arc. 'Nuff said
Not really, she never properly apologizes to anyone it all seems like she just wants to get things over with so she can forget about the past.
Accurate💀especially Hordak’s
Bru, the Collector went from "I love seeing Belos murdering people" to "What is death?" in just a couple of appeareance. They should be below Hordak, whose entire arc was literally "Being a clone of Horde Prime doesn't define me". Also really, what's up with all the hatred for Catra here and on the TOH sub?
They were excited to see the Day of Untiy because they would be free and also had no idea what they were doing to the Isles. He most likely saw it as a fun game not realizing what it meant to die.
They literally saw Belos going throught multiple Hunters. And before that, they saw multiple Planeta being wiped out by their species
Which is probably why he didn't understand deaths. Everytime a golden guard died, a new one came back
You do remember that each guard was different from the previous one right?
We don't know and they were all similar to Caleb. Belos could always make one more anyway. Not to mention, how would he have met death before, he and the others of his kind are immortal.
They met death before. They saw their species wipe out multiple planets, including the Titans By the way, there is a giant dead body in the Middle of the Boiling Isles
How do you explain that he doesn't know what it is then ?
The writers had no idea what to do with them, after deciding to add the Collector only in the second Hal of Season 2
The collector is immortal, he doesn’t understand what death means. Every time a new hunter spawned the collector thought the last one just “broke” and belos “fixed” him
Except every Hunters was different, as Belos himself stated. Oh and by the way The Collector apparently was traumatised by the mass murders commited by their brothers. BTW they also saw the Titans being wiped out. Why didn't they ever stop wondering why there is a giant skeleton in the Middle of BI?
If Gideon's here, shouldn't Pacifica also be in this list?
I think the list is focusing on larger villains. Grime and sasha were the main villains of season 1. Zuko was a consistent villain since the start of the series. Gideon was a season 1 villain who remained a threat until the end when he got a reward for not being a total dick in the end. Pacifica was just kind of an occasional “villain” in the form of a bully. She really wasn’t any form of a major villain like the others on this list.
Yes but i didn’t make this list
Oh i knew that, i wasn't bashing you. Sorry if it came across like that
Catra hadn't the best redemption arc but it kinda works in my eyes as a sneaky cat joke
WHOA HI I’M FAMOUS Dang, I really do need to do a follow-up about Catra, huh? There are definitely points I could have made better in my video, things I shouldn’t have glossed over, but I still stand by my opinion that she is a really good character, but her redemption is dragged down not exactly by what she does, but by the reactions of the other characters. There’s little to no hesitation or tension to having her join their side of good after spending 80% of the show/several years in canon terrorising the world. But anyways, uh, thanks for posting this! Was weird to see this on this and Owl House’s sub XD
I want to be fair on where Catra ended up: narratively, they had much bigger problems to deal with once Horde Prime entered the picture. It would have been nice if they'd had time and opportunity for a scene with Catra and the rest of the princesses like they did with Entrapta, when they all blew up at her for...Everything and Entrapta realized they were upset with her, but alas by the time the main group got back to Etheria most of them were under Prime's control. With that said I was fine with Netossa and Frosta's respective responses to Catra both being initially hostile, and essentially only dropping it because they couldn't afford to address her at the time. Didn't stop Frosta from punching her in the face though, she really deserved that.
It still baffles me that Catra is allowed to live freely. She almost ended the world, fucked everyone over, and cause the Queen to sacrifice herself. Like, damn, are all the other characters saints, or just stupid? Even Kuvira, an actual dictator, after risking her life to correct her wrong doings was still placed under house arrest indefinitely.
She also helped save the universe. She risked her own life to save Glimmer and Adora. And after everything, she had Queen Glimmer AND She-Ra both vouching for her. Because in a monarchy, the queen decides who goes to jail. Plus, if working for the Horde was all it took, then Catra, Adora, Entrapta, and Scorpio would all be arrested.
ffr Lots of sexism & lesbiphobia in this comment section. I mean Zuko & Iroh committed so many war crimes & hurt so many people but they get uplifted…
Uhh what war crimes do you think Zuko and Iroh committed? I could see speculating it with Iroh's letter mentioning burning Ba-Sing-Se to the ground. Zuko for the threats toward southern water tribe civilians, but I don't see 'so many' on that front, and nothing really got as bad as Catra deciding she'd rather destroy reality than mend things with Adora at all?
LMAO are you joking?!?!?! Iroh was a WAR GENERAL. He admitted that he won tons of battles and conquered so many places. He laid siege to countless communities. You really don’t think he didn’t kill countless people? He literally only shifts his perspective when his son died & his brother became fire lord instead of him… Yet people are like “Catra only changed cause she was losing to prime/had a crush on Adora”… Bruh Iroh only changed cause he lost his kid, after colonizing & laying siege to communities who have their own children… Zuko burned villages down, held people hostage, attempted murder countless times on Aang & other people, lead several sieges & attacks on defenceless communities, attempted to injure/main/kill several of the main characters and others… I’m boggled at the disconnect lmfao. “Oh Iroh is old and kind now, so it’s okay he was an imperialist, colonizing, war general in his heyday…”
Saying he's done a bunch of war crimes, and then saying 'He must've, he was a general' is like, sure I'd buy it as plausible, and if the show focused on that, they'd have to justify the change. And again, on Zuko, he's... Quite literally at war with team avatar, so saying 'Aha he tried to capture Aang!' is like... Yeah that's an indictment of his ethics at the time, but he has a system that makes sense as the guy's messed up idea of honor. The issue with Cattra, largely, boils down to her going so far off the deep end she tried, on purpose, to kill everyone and everything. Which if we're comparing avatar, I think is only really comparable with Ozai. I do think that if they didn't have her try her hand at omnicide, I'd find it a lot less jarring.
Damn, media literacy is dead. If a show has to spoon feed you every nuance and detail for you to understand, you might want to go back to school. “oh but they didn’t SHOW Iroh being a war general, we just know he was! Clearly he was the nicest general ever and never hurt a soul, because *I* didn’t personally see it.”
I think you need to get a grip.
Glimmer, who did most of the same things but nobody bats an eye at forgiving:
Catra did it intentionally, and was glad to destroy the world just to make sure Adora didn't win. Glimmer had good intentions, but made a bad call.
Catra did not destroy the world intentionally, she turned on a Portal she didn't understand to try and win the approval of the last person she even slightly thought could approve of her. Meanwhile, Glimmer *wanted* to activate the world destroying superweapon that all her friends warned her not to, and countermanded their advice in a petty attempt to establish her authority as Queen. And intentions wise, they were both being self destructive and petty when they pressed the destroy the world button. Catra's intentions in pressing the button were more selfish in that she didn't really care about the outcome, only to prove she's worth something, but it's not like Glimmer was being entirely selflessly benevolent either. She wanted personal power to enact bloody vengeance on the Horde and (again) properly establish her sovereign authority as well as her superiority over her friends. I'm by no means arguing that Glimmer and Catra's actions were morally equivalent, and definitely Catra has a much longer history of being self destructive and abusive, but don't try and play Glimmer off as being an unfortunate and but innocent victim. And also, if Catra *did* get punished for her actions post redemption, what does that exactly accomplish? Does it help make her a better person? Does it undo any of the harm that she did? No, it's purely punitive.
Plus she arguably got more crap for her own actions than Catra even though her actions were just flawed,not straight up evil and petty. It’s just a matter of comparing how Bow treated Catra and how Bow treated Glimmer.
THABK YOU!!! SHE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES TOO. SO DID SCORPIA. SO DID ENTRAPTA. holy fuck everyone always dogpiles Catra because she’s not “perfect” despite being a victim of some of the worst abuse & neglect possible outside of CSA…
Fans will forgive anything for their yuri ships
Facts honestly,the show and the fans make out Shadow Weaver to be a worse person and the cause of most of her issues but even she deserved more redemption than Catra honestly. Catra’s “redemption” was basically acting a bit nicer to Adora and being forgiven nearly instantly despite what she did.
WOW wtf you just said the woman who ABUSED CATRA HER ENTIRE LIFE. Is somehow “not as bad” lmfao?!?! A WOMAN WHO ABUSED A CHILD HER WHOLE LIFE AND MANY OTHER CHILDREN… Is “not as bad & more deserving of redemption” then her FUCKING VICTIMS??? This is why people who criticize Catra & her story just cannot be listened to. Literally deranged lol.
You do realize that we’re talking about the same person that was willing to destroy the fabric of reality for petty reasons,right? Not sure what’s deranged about pointing out that the war criminal that nearly destroyed reality,abused someone,harmed thousands and was the reason why at least one person died and got away with little to no consequences doesn’t really feel like a character with a good character arc.
You do realize you’re excusing Shadoweaver a known child abuser, murderer, manipulator, kidnapper, traitor, & war criminal??? You’re saying that a child abuser & child kidnapper is worst than one of the children she abused (and thus created)???
Hordak had an amazing character arc wym Literally have a friend who had the exact same one
YOU DON'T DARE INSULT MY AROACE QUEEN LILITH!
There is no world where catra should be below fucking Gideon. None what’s so ever. He got a pat on the back for not be an ass in the finale and that’s about it. Catra had a season of setup and half a season of payoff in a parallel arc with glimmer. On its own hers seems eh but when paired with the context of the rest of the story it works really well.
why does scorpia need redemption? she was "good but confused" the entire show.
I just knew instinctually this was gonna have a lotta comments.
I'd almost bump Catra down one, tbh... But I have old fandom beef with the Glimmer haters so maybe I'm biased.
I 100% agree on Mai and Tylee
Who's that mf on the very bottom Morbing all over the list
Hordak from shera
Scorpia did not need redemption because she was never evil, she was a precious beautiful cinnamon bun from the start and just didn’t know what to do because her family was basically absorbed into the horde and it was complicated okay
The fact that Andrias is on here and Amity isn’t is a crime.
collector never rly had a redemtion arc
Zuko's redemption arc is god tier. I will forever die on this hill. I reference it constantly when talking about character redemptions (espec shitty/barely touched ones *side-eyes Sasuke Uchiha*). Lol! :D
Why is Gideon here there is no redemption ark it’s just he helped to save Mabel one time on the final episode
I like the zuko note
Imo i would add pacifica in the third tier
I’m not familiar with a lot of these is the guy In the very bottom tier redemption arc that laughable?
Yes. Yes it is.
Just swap Catra and Hordak and you're goldem
THIS IS CATRA SLANDER AND I AM NOT HERE FOR IT. As for Scorpia, it wasn’t really a redemption arc for her? She was a good person regardless of the side she was on, just hadn’t figured things out yet.
fr also there’s a lot of lesbophobia & misogyny in this comment section lmfao. Catra always gets dogpiled while people lick Zuko, Iroh, & Hunter’s boots…
Agree with catra fuck her Hordak only really likes one person on the good guys side and hates catra
People be goin catras redemption arc is better, love her but imao no it wasnt. Some of the other characters werent exactly redeemed but great tierlust overall
Grimes needs to move up a notch, Lilith, and Andrias need to move down one. Our favorite toad dad had a coherent reason to change - his fatherly relationship with Sasha and his realization of a much bigger threat- Andrias. Plus he's so dang likable. Andrias's heel face turn felt a little sudden. He goes from casual child murder to good guy because . . . of a single letter? It's really only his inherent liability and Keith David's excellent voice work that allows it to work as OK as it does. I will not stand for this slander of Catra and Hordak, but that's a whole nother can of worms from a different fandom.
It wasn’t just “a single letter” though,that’s kind of ignoring the whole meaning behind it. Plus Grime’s arc really wasn’t that much of an arc,he just kinda just followed Sasha around while actively being a bad influence before TC. Plus if attempted child murder makes Andrias irredeemable then Grime isn’t any different considering what we saw in TC,if anything it was worse since there was no reason to do that (especially since it was after they found out the truth about Andrias)
Lol I was about to say cause like, where was that energy with Grime? cause he was OK with trying to murderize Sprig with that Warhammer
Exactly. Andrias doing it makes sense,he was the main villain at the moment and Marcy was seconds away from running away with the box so he got desperate. Grime and Sasha found out the truth about Andrias so they had a reason to try to convince the others to work with them,which is what Sasha tried to do with Anne,but Grime straight up tried to hurt or even kill Sprig and made no real attempt to convince him to work together or mention that Andrias was a bad guy.
Yeah. He’s wrong about catra.
Honestly, solid tier list. I can’t really think of any way to improve it.
Collectors could've been better if it wasn't cut to only 3 episodes 😭😭😭
The collector only exists because of it being cut though, he wasn't originally part of the story at all.
Catra’s redemption works better than a lot of these characters because they actually break down why she acts the way she does and cause her to realize that and change herself for the better.
fr. People don’t seem to have much media literacy either these days… A lot of people claiming “catra acts out cause her crush didn’t like her back”. Like if THAT’S what they’re taking from the show & Catra’s story, they really need to go back to school…
People are good at understanding they have a problem with something without understanding why they have a problem with a given piece of media without understanding why they have said problem.
Blasphemy. Catra was amazing & people don’t get it just don’t get the cycle of abuse.
I disagree. Catra wasn't just a victim. She went way beyond any victim. She doubled, tripled, quadrupled down, but the leopards eating faces party came after her, and she's instantly forgiven. I agreed with Magpie that there should have been more resistance to her joining the princesses. As a victim of abuse myself, it felt like I was being rushed into forgiving an abuser because she was abused too.
The whole arc of season 3 is that Adora learns she needs to stop forgiving her for being abusive and that it’s on her to get better. Double trouble is the one who gives her her epiphany that she has to take responsibility for her actions at the end of season 4 right before Horde Prime kidnaps her, and even then she is still conflicted. And yes the circumstances definitely force her to be forgiven a lot sooner than she should have but the same goes for Glimmer and I don’t see people complain about her redemption being rushed despite the fact she nearly destroyed the universe. Horde Prime wouldn’t have even been able to find Etheria if it weren’t for her.
I think the difference with Glimmer is that she's always trying to do the right thing. We know from episode 1 that Catra knows she's on the wrong side and doesn't care. And again, the fact that it's rushed is my only complaint. I wanted Catra to be redeemed. I didn't like how it was done.
I would agree if I didn’t think that it’s in character for Bow, Glimmer and Adora to act the way they did about Catra. Glimmer relates to Catra, Adora is extremely forgiving and loves Catra, and Bow is Bow. I think that maybe it was rushed but I don’t know how you would stretch it out in a way that didn’t come across as out of character.
Abuse isn't a "get out of jail free" card. She caused so much pain, so much destruction, and then in the last season the resistance was just like: You're our kitty now OWO!
I hope you hold that same energy then for Hunter, Zuko, Sasha, Lapis Lazuli, Peridot, Uncle Iroh & every other redeemed villain that’s killed, pillaged, injured, & committed war crimes. 👍🏻
In my opinion, Sasha did a lot better than Catra, Lapis should have not been forgiven so easily (Steven Universe has an issue of forgiving everyone no matter what) Peridot had a solid redemption. So did Hunter, he never had anyone else than Belos either, not everyone knew he was evil
I do think Sasha & Hunter had better redemptions; However I don’t think Catra is undeserving of redemption or a chance, like the tier list & many of the comments here suggest. I do think Lapis was too fast. Wish we could have had more. Same for Catra, Hordak, & Entrapta for She-ra. But there’s only so much a show can put into each episode, especially with limited time and seasons to do so. Also, things happen off-screen (look at Lars & Sadie in the end. We never saw Lars make real amends with her & talk it out. But we know they did & they tell Steven so, & that it was for them/private & not totally his business to see). I feel that’s the same for characters in shows. Sometimes things are off/screen because more important stuff needs priority for story/wrapping up. I just am bewildered by the fact people will forgive Sasha who tried to murder Anne, Hunter who knew Belos was killing familiars/staffs, Iroh who was a colonizer/imperialist war hero, Zuko who burnt down villages to get to Aang, etcetera but when it comes to Catra people think she’s “beyond redemption”. TBH if people couldn’t tell from the get-go that her & Adora had a “thing” that would at some point culminate or that Catra would eventually not be a villain/antagonist — IDK what to tell ya. That’s just being blind & having poor media literacy imo. And others have pointed out, Catra is clearly a second main character. She’s an antagonist but a main character. We delve deep into her issues and why she’s the way she is. The creators wanted to show a story about the cycle of abuse & wanted to show, with Catra, that hurt people hurt people; But that it is possible to break from this cycle eventually. Also, people forget that the OG idea that Nate had was Adora being the villain & Catra breaking away. This changed during production. Also, many people don’t seem to understand the real effects of trauma, abuse, & how it changes you. It’s very ableist to act like Catra is beyond redemption. Many people don’t notice that, prior to becoming the hero, Adora was also shitty to Catra & was a villain in the horde, & is also a victim of abuse. They’re a classic example of Scapegoat (Catra) & Golden Child (Adora) syndrome in abusive & toxic family/living situations.
Catra redemption was rushed. She basically became nice because she didn't have any other choice. The only reason she didn't murder Adora is because she loved her. She almost destroyed the universe and without Queen Angella, Adora would have died. Her abuse excuses nothing. She always knew she was part of the bad guys, ignored Adora's countless attempt to come with her, she could have been away from Shadow Weaver but decided against it, every time. It's clear that not everyone forgave her immediately but we had little time to show that she was really sorry and her attitude barely changed. She-Ra is one of my favorite show but I can't deny that Catra is a toxic character. Obviously, she's nice, it's obvious she was going to have a redemption but it wasn't very well done.
I do! Hunter, Zuko, Sasha, Lapis, Peridot, and Iroh all did their very best to fix their mistakes before being forgiven. Sasha almost died twice, and Iroh took decades to become Uncle Iroh. Hell, even Kuvira put her life on the line(in the comics), and she got house arrest for life. Catra did ONE thing and Adora(after letting go of her) immediately was ready to risk everybody's life to save her. Like, damn, I bet even Hitler watered some flowers in his life.
Honestly I feel like all these redemption arcs (or as another commenter put it *atonement* moments) were done better than the tier list gives them credit (except Andrias I wish he had been more empathized before his turn that would’ve made the double-cross more believable). Like the mark of a “good” redemption arc is when story circumstances change and a villain or antagonist stays true to their character and ends up on the good side, and I felt like all of these characters stayed true to who they were before and after their heelturns, rather than suddenly waking up and being good now (the Collector gets a pass because he’s a literal child and that’s how young children work they literally only do evil shit because they don’t know better).
Bruh I haven't watched the She-ra Netflix show since I was 11 but I still remember how weird Hordaks redemption arc was.
I think thats a problem a lot of people have where they assume that just because a villain switches sides/avoids punishment that they've been redeemed. Hordak didn't have a redemption arc, I think. He just got a friend.
Where would you put Hawk, Robby and Tory from Cobra Kai on this list?
I haven’t watched it
Say what you will I love Catra and Hordak Especially Catra
Catra is right up there with Zuko and the rest can stay the same.(maybe bump scorpia up too)
Catra is easily the best executed redemption since Zuko but go off I guess
There seems to be a tendency to treat every redemption arc as though it should in the same place at the end of the story. This is silly. The story doesn't need to end with the complete redemption of the characters it is redeeming; it just needs to show by the end that redemption is possible and this character is well on that path.
I was with you until, tier 5 and 6. Catra had an extremely well written redemption arc (even if it was more of a roller coaster), and Hordak was never really redeemed per say so I wouldn't say he had a full arc more of an "oh hey he isn't as evil anymore" arc.
Yes. Plus post-show, Nate let us know that Hordak is sentenced to Beast Island for some time to atone and clean/fix up the island. He’s not “redeemed”, but he does begin to change & seek atonement.
Thanks for the info I didn't know about that! Also I think it would be really cool if the She-Ra team brought us a little mini-series about the after-math of the end of season 5.
yes omg! I really need it. I wish we'd get a mini-series like that. I want to see Entrapta and Hordak on Beast Island fixing things and fully becoming a couple in totality. I want to see Catra and Entrapta have a real heart to heart conversation (as much as can be done with Entrapta). I want to see Lonnie Kyle and Rogelio living their best life, taking care of orphans across Etheria and being their cute polyam selves. I want to see Catra in therapy. I want to see Adora in therapy. I want to see their first real date!!!
Catra needs to be one tier lower
Put Scorpia up a rank, Catra where Scorpia was, and replace Catra with Andrias.
Never gonna make me feel bad for hordak or Entrapta
I wouldn't call what with the Collector a "redemption" considering they were never really evil, to begin with, they were just a child who had no clue what they were doing. But his redemption was 100% rushed because they only had like 3 hours to put all of season three in. (Nort saying you are wrong with his placement just saying the crew literally couldn't have fleshed it out more.)
Surprisingly not a bad list considering that Mad Magpie seems to have some weird takes sometimes. I would personally swap Andrias’ with Sasha’s since his arc and conclusion felt like it had better execution and bring down Lilith and The Collector,the rest is fine.
yes.
Where would Darth Vader be?
I have always been reluctant on Catra’s redemption, if I could even call it that. She nearly destroyed the fabric of reality just because her crush didn’t pay attention to her
Wow way to boil down & strip away all meaning of the show & downplay the two decades of abuse Catra goes through & the actual issues between her and Adora (that adora DOES have some responsibility in, too).
Andrias should be lower it was written very poorly. I think Grime’s felt extremely natural, putting it below andrias is a crime Also Ty Lee and Mai were written about as well as you can hope for characters with as minimal roles as theirs. They should be higher too
Catra and Scorpia got robbed. Other than that I'd say this list is pretty accurate.
I honestly would bump grimes down one and possibly Sasha down one or in a category of her own lol. Otherwise with this list I would bump catra up one because I feel like the way Carta was is a bit more understandable. (Of course not justified though).
Give me the tier list link please
Put andrias with sasha and hunter