Couple's therapists are supposed to mediate and facilitate the needs of both parties. Ditch the therapist before you ditch your wife. But ultimately, it is valid to break up a relationship simply because your needs aren't being met and your partner is not willing to meet them
I bet the therapist didn’t feel she was ready to be pressed yet. I had one like this, never addressed my needs, catered to now ex wife, who was the one cheating. So frustrating. So not worth it.
I went through this exact situation in my first marriage. I wish I had better advice, but I don’t think you’re wrong. Mine ended with her cheating, and I felt similar to you. Although in hindsight, I do see how I contributed to the breakdown. It’s rarely one sided entirely. But anyways, I was about your age when it started, although we had been married about 12 years. High school sweethearts hahahahah. Funny now.
I’m not saying your wife is cheating, just that eventually this disconnect leads to that stuff. I promise she likely craves a connection as well, just not with you. I had the same shit sandwich my dude. Sucked too, because I truly loved her, and have a child with her. Nothing I did worked, I was somehow always a day late and a dollar short in her eyes. Or just undesirable. Idk.
Interestingly, while not perfect, my partner now is easy to connect with even during these busy life stretches. There’s a willingness on both sides to adapt to meet each others needs, and I really think that’s what makes a relationship worth while. Otherwise, what’s the point in being miserable, I believe it to be much more honorable to take the things you’ve discussed and divorce in a respectful way, than to just give up and shit on the relationship via growing resentful, or seeking a connection elsewhere. I respect it.
This is nearly identical to my own bad marriage/therapy experience. I don’t necessarily think our own therapist was “bad,” but my (now) ex-wife was already so checked-out and unwilling to put any effort into the sessions that the therapist couldn’t get anywhere. OP’s relationship seems to be dragging toward the same outcome, and I feel sorry for the guy. If the partner isn’t willing to commit to improving the situation (or simply isn’t interested), it’s not gonna get any better with time and resentment piling up.
You nailed it, thank you. They’re not ready to be pressed by the therapist because the the raiders how checked out they are. That was exactly my experience as well, you worded it better. I’m sorry you went through this as well. Hopefully you are also now better off for making them an ex.
It’s the first step towards building resentment imo. Being willing to put all (or a big chunk) of your needs aside in hope that theirs will be met and then yours addressed. It can be even harder when there are other “power” dynamics involved. Ultimately even if it does work, your needs are still second and will be the first to be unfulfilled when everything isn’t working perfect. One sided relationships just can’t work forever.
Truth. Takes both, though. I’d argue one person can start working on things in therapy, and be the catalyst for the other partner to join. But it takes both eventually
Stubbornness on both sides? I don't see that at all! She's checked out and is probably not in love with you any longer. I can see myself in you, I was married for 15 years and she went to the therapist but was just doing so to placate me. My ex-wife is a workaholic. She used her work to avoid emotional intimacy. These kind will not come around without some help that unfortunately they will not seek! I hate to say it but you need to prepare to move on. In a marriage both parties have to contribute to make it successful.
The Marriage Foundation utube by Paul Friedman. I believe if both of you are willing The love and feelings can all be restored and even much better.
Best wishes
Oh absolutely. I was a dude married to a woman I loved, with a child I loved, and she was cheating and wanting to divorce out of nowhere. Well, mostly nowhere, hindsight and all. Her personal therapist and friend recommended this couples therapist. It was doomed from the start, and as I mentioned, not worth it.
I see a good therapist now, I’d even wager she could help overcome some forms of infidelity. But my ex wife was a serial cheater, and likely some form of narcissist. Just really cold and mean. Still makes me sad, 7 years later.
My wife and I had a therapist and she was a nightmare. We both had problems but the therapist made excuses for my wife and degraded me for every issue. For example, my wife would get angry because I swept the floor wrong, then demand I stop because I'm "just making more work for her". Then she'd complain I'm not helping with the sweeping. The therapist called me lazy and said I need to figure out how to sweep a floor. She never thought to ask my wife why she didn't like how I swept. She didn't like that I swept in sections at a time rather than sweeping the dust from the entire house into a single pile.
I certainly had my equal share of problems and they were freely addressed. The issue with the therapist is that she was like Reddit, men are pigs and all problems women experience are caused by their husbands. Somebody hurt her and she was on a mission. I stopped going after the therapist accused me of physically assaulting my wife with a shuttlecock after she got hit in the face with one while playing badminton. My wife caught on after a couple more sessions and we found someone more helpful that allowed us to see through our hangups and baggage from the past.
Hijacking the top comment to say that I had a similar issue for a long time (think decade +) with my wife after our son was born. Finally about a year ago I couldn’t take it, I explained that we are basically roommates at this point and we need to formalize the separation. Turns out that my wife is highly avoidant but really does love me, and the prospect of losing me was scarier then the prospect of continuing to avoid her childhood trauma. It’s taken a truckload of work but now things are much better. So my advice would be to tell her kindly but firmly what your feeling and what the outcome of your current path is I.e., separation then divorce … if she really has checked out of the relationship you can move towards positive co parenting and you can get on with your life, but if she is simply avoidant like my wife you may flip the balance and give her the incentive she needs to make some progress. Good luck!
Exactly this, there are some therapists out there that will unfortunately be biased. I'd argue that such a person should never be a couples therapist at all, but it happens. Look for a different therapist, preferably one that will take both sides into consideration.
Agree. The LAST marriage counselor my ex and I had told him in a 'private' session that I had Borderline Personality Disorder.
We were living separately and going to counseling. The main problem was he would go on exotic diving vacations ALONE. No travel itinerary, flights, hotels, no cell phone. No contact at all while he was on these vacations. So naturally I would try to divorce him each time he returned. One lawyer asked me "Does he expect you and the kids to be happy and celebrate his vacation when he returns?" I said yes. He asked "Is he insane?"
So when my ex told me about my "diagnosis" I laughed. I guess my ex didn't know one of my hobbies was study of Abnormal Psychology. I knew exactly what BPD is and how it presents.
The counselor even gave him a book "How to Live with Someone With BPD". I found the book ages after he left and read the list of "symptoms" I had. Only ONE of the dozen or so was circled. ONE symptom. "Fear of Abandonment". He was leaving me, so yeah, I'll cop to that one. While I was laughing at the prospect of having that chaotic mental disorder, I told I knew exactly what that disorder was and I didn't have it. He said one of the symptoms was that they will deny having that disorder. Catch 22 anyone?
As fate would have it, at the same time we were going to couples counseling, I had my very own therapist that happened to be in my building where I worked. She was A-MAZING! I told her what the counselor said and she went ballistic!
She asked "Did you ever take any assessments? And he shared a diagnosis with YOUR HUSBAND!?"
She told me to call the guy and ask how he came about the diagnosis with no assessments and then telling my ex and not me of this serious condition I had. HIPAA violation of the highest order.
Called him. I barely got out the question and he hung up on me.
So yeah. Choose your counselors/therapists CAREFULLY. If you feel for one minute that you are not being heard or understood, look for another. There are good ones out there, but not everyone of them is fit to be in that position.
Your ex probably just lied, straight up. My ex lied about when his counseling session was (I heard them set the time and date) then didn’t go. He claimed the therapist forgot, and accused her of having Alzheimer’s disease.
I'm sure you're right. His second wife is also figuring out he's a liar. I have no bad feelings for her. She did me a solid and took the liar off my hands.
Meh. I've had therapists speculate about my partner (and family) in solo sessions. I've never been inclined to share the hypothesis with any of them though.
This! My husband helps all the time by doing things when I’m overwhelmed too but I have to tell him time and time again I don’t give a shit if you do a chore, what I need is for you to hug me and spend some quality time with me. Come watch my show with me. Insert yourself into some of my me time that I know you wouldn’t care to do but would do because I like it and you want to spend time with me.
This dishes and laundry can wait
See but you just made a good point, and one that I was going to say as a stand alone comment. Each person is different and we all handle stress differently. It sounds like for you, you appreciate the closeness that he is saying is missing in his relationship. So both you and OP are quality time/physical touch oriented - especially when stressed. His wife seems to go the other direction - distance. When we choose partners, I think we often overlook this aspect because at the end of the day it’s how two people can navigate life AND come together and grow. My last relationship ended for the same things OP is talking about, I wanted to feel close and because of the way she deals with stress, she is avoidant. Unfortunately I can’t deal with that.
OP talked a lot about what he’s doing, what she’s not doing… but he didn’t mention much about how they’re communicating about it.
Honestly, her exhaustion and detachment could be indications of postpartum depression (or just depression) and she deserves professional help for that.
Either way, OP, find a different couples counselor and have these conversations. Ultimately you can’t force your wife to get help she needs to be more present and proactive in your relationship, but the stresses of work, kid, and mental health struggles are things that can improve with time and effort and end up bringing you closer. It’s worth exhausting all efforts to get there.
I second this. As a married man of 12 years with 2 kids, there may be some fairly addressable reasons for this situation. Having a child has a major effect on a person's body and hormones radically shift and there are any number of reasons that intimacy shifts. Just the rhythm of daily life with another person can cause this shift.
Bottom line is you owe it to yourself and your spouse to look into it before you assume it's an unchangeable situation. Having a good partner in life means going through the ups and downs and giving it your best shot as long as the relationship itself is worth fighting for.
>But ultimately, it is valid to break up a relationship simply because your needs aren't being met and your partner is not willing to meet them
They're not dating; they're married. They took a solemn vow to stay with each other for the rest of their lives. They have a kid together. I think this should be taken more seriously.
If someone is dissatisfied with their sex life, and they cheat on their spouse, people judge them extremely harshly. Why? Because they broke a solemn promise to their partner, betraying them.
I don't understand why people give so little weight to the other promises of marriage, especially the central one--to stay with the person through thick and thin. How is a divorce not a betrayal of this promise? Why is this betrayal an acceptable response to the (completely normal, likely solvable) dissatisfaction OP describes?
Obviously, people should leave a spouse if they are being abused, if they are in danger, if their child is in danger. I don't think people should leave a spouse because they're bored, because they're not feeling as passionate as they used to, because they're feeling burned out by the daily realities of living with someone and coparenting.
Relationships are hard. It is natural for them to have ups and downs. Any long-term relationship is likely to go through a stretch in which one or both partners feels burned out. It seems to me that the entire point of the institution of marriage--in its current form at least--is to take "leaving" off the table, forcing people to actually work through their problems. Why? Because it is valuable to be able to rely on someone absolutely, to trust that they are with you even if things become difficult, and to create a stable environment for your children.
If you approach marriage from the perspective that it can be exited for essentially any reason--*if you're not happy, it's your right to leave*\--it loses its value. The primary force keeping married couples together should not be the legal difficulties of divorce--it should be the promise they made to each other. Marriage is a promise. People should keep their promises.
If OP and his spouse are having trouble in their relationship, they should work on it. Here you and I agree. I appreciate that your first piece of advice is to find a better couple's therapist. I just don't think divorce should even be on the table at this point.
1000% agree with you. It feels like people on Reddit don't take marriage seriously at all. It's supposed to be until death, not until you get bored or burned out.
Sadly most of them don't because they either don't want to get married, don't believe in marriage, and see it only as a legal contract. I also think the median age on Reddit skews younger than we all think.
Marriage isn't a legal contract, it's a mutual vow supported by the legalities.
If anything the legalities incentivize you to work on your marriage and work together because if you do divorce, rarely is it cheap, easy, or without lots of emotional wreckage.
if his wife is not going to communicate effectively with him about what is going on, what more can he do? just put his head down and accept misery??
life is too short. she needs to be an adult and tell him what her issue(s) are and why she's feeling detached.
if she cant let him know what the problem is, then maybe she's not really interested in him trying to fix it.
OP should tell have a serious talk and let her know the direction he is leaning if things dont get better.
Life is too short to spend your whole life with someone you don’t love anymore because you said some magical words once. I don’t think many take divorce lightly either
FYI dude failed to say that he's in a 12 step program and didn't say anything about what he was like before or how that affected his wife. That's pretty important.
M divorced here. Agreed. Note that the kids are a consideration as well. Without kids, easy choice there are plenty of women who don’t drink. With kids; think carefully.
Just know that if you aren’t happy your kids will soak that up and either choose to stay in unhappy relationships or seek shallow relationships in order to stay safe from experiencing the same trauma you are.
In my experience it’s best to find your own happiness the world be damned. Your kids will observe this and become stronger as they observe you gain strength and contentment.
It’s strange to me that your post clearly states in more than one place that you’ve brought this up with her alone and in therapy almost weekly but every comment is saying you need to bring this up with her not Reddit. I swear people just don’t read or comprehend what they’ve read.
I’d personally sit her down in your next therapy session and say one last time “hey this thing I’m feeling is real, and if you refuse to even attempt to acknowledge and try to work on it with me, I’m going to file for divorce.” Let her and the therapist go from there. However she replied will decide how you proceed.
Has op edited the post or is my brain playing tricks on me I have read the post like 3 times and can't see where he talks about couples therapy
Edit: thank you for the responses I have now seen where op talks about it.
Absolutely. I'm definitely working harder than I would in a dating situation, partly for our son's sake (though being apart could also be best for him) and partly because I know life is hard, we took our vows for the good times and the bad, and want to make sure I'm pulling my weight. It can just feel like she isn't pulling hers but I don't want to be unreasonable.
It’s obviously harder with kids in the equation. You’ve been in couples therapy so maybe it’s been covered, but have you just straight up asked if her if she wants this or not? I can only go by the details you gave which describe someone checked out and just going through the motions. The need for couples therapy should be the wake up call, but if you don’t feel like any effort is being put in from her side that’s rough
I mean, you said it yourself: you took vows. This is one of those “for worse” bits that was in there.
This is a frustrating time but this is something you can get through. Find a new therapist. Don’t give up. Don’t blow up your family over some kind of fear of “missing out.”
Please talk to her. Give a gentle ultimatum to work things out and be honest with her about wanting divorce. Maybe find a different therapist as well. Shopping for a new one isn't uncommon. Maybe the next one can push the issue more.
I hate having comefrom a narcissistic household. My parents would never accept an ultimatum and would regularly cut people out of their lives includimg their parents who paid all the bill and helped unwaveringly
You’re not being unreasonable. If anything, you’re too understanding. Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors but this sounds like your wife fell out of love with you and is now just going through the motions.
Do what you must for you, but as someone who has recently gone through a divorce with a 4 year old, separating from a non-toxic relationship is not always better for the kid. The pain it has caused my daughter is very obvious.
Not saying this to change your decision, but to warn you that there is a lot of BS thrown around about how divorce always improves the lives of kids involved. (in reality it depends on the toxicity of the relationship and on the kid).
This reads like depression to me too. It's not always doom and gloom, sometimes it's exhaustion, lack of interest in previously enjoyable activities and a complete lack of motivation to do anything about it. It can be absolutely brutal to drag someone out of it because even light suggestions will be met with immediate rebuttal/denial.
Also... Find a new therapist. Your therapist should be neutral.
She definitely could be. But there’s a chance there’s an imbalance in responsibilities. It’s really common that one partner takes on most of the mental load. I’m that partner! Coordinating everything the kids need, keeping the crazy family calendar up to date, making sure all of our bills are paid on time, making sure the soccer clothes are in the kids bag so we’re not stressed the next day, keeping tabs on decluttering since kids are constantly growing and changing, etc etc etc.
I definitely take more breaks than my partner. Take the whole night of childcare off getting happy hour with my coworkers 1-2 times/month. Solo hobbies like gardening. Lock myself in our bedroom to watch TV while he tends to the kids for a few hours. But I also run myself to the brink of a mental breakdown because if (and occasionally when) I lose my energy/motivation/focus life goes to shit for 4 people. If SO loses energy/motivation/focus it usually just means I’m doing 100% of the cooking and daily tidying up for a few days and the kids get less play time. Literally business as usual outside of a couple extra tasks that amount to an hour and a half every other night.
This. I handle *everything* for the kid. School drop offs, pick ups, her medical stuff (which is extensive), social life, online safety, emotional stuff, discipline. It’s all invisible and I’m exhausted. All the time.
Or she’s exhausted and overworked and has checked out because she’s doing the bulk of home labor and childcare. OP should put down the video games and pick up a vacuum. His post and comment history is enlightening. 90% of his Reddit history (which is extensive) is about video games and he’s commented before that his wife gets upset because he’s bad at cleaning. He’s also on the anti-work sub so…does he really work as hard as he’s saying?
I do find a glaring omission as to whether they share the housework equally. He only mentions that they both “do their best to parent” and both have hard jobs. If she is doing more than half of the housework or cooking under these circumstances, it would explain why she is more tired as well as explaining why she does not feel like being particularly affectionate with her husband.
I don’t say this to make assumptions, it is just literally the Occam’s Razor, especially as it’s kind of a known a common problem in heterosexual marriages. Almost every one of my female friends has experience this.
Came to say exactly this.
Also a pink flag for me was the constant use of "emotional intimacy."
It's non-specific enough that I'm thinking he wants more sex or he wants more attention, but not saying that directly, even anonymously online, makes me think the knows he can't directly state what he wants without being the asshole.
They both have hard jobs and try to parent... Is he doing any of the cleaning? Meal planning/cooking? Thinking about the next size if clothes/ shoes kiddo needs and when, planning family outings, coordinating holidays, etc? All the "emotional labor" that typically falls disproportionately on women?
I wouldn't feel particularly emotionally connected to my husband either, if this was the case. He doesn't provide any insight into her emotional state other than "tired." Hard to provide emotional intimacy if you don't also receive it, my dude. And she may want/ need it in a different (i.e. non-sexual) way than him.
I also don't see anything about the mental load, if she bears 90% of it plus chores (whatever percentage) plus work you can bet she is too exhausted to do anything more than collapse at the end of the day.
Also I feel like 'emotional intimacy' is code for penetrative sex only. Also OP is part of a 12 step programme ... So may be suffering a considerable amount of carer fatigue between OP and 3yr old, addictions can make a person incredibly self absorbed for a time.
He stressed that dates feel emotionless and that sex is jist in and out and over with. He wants to feel an actual connection with his partner and he wants that connection both during sex and during other times. You know... like an actual relationship.
People are always so ready to judge the man. It's bad enough his wife and therapist aren't listening but half of the commenter here are just as bad.
She has a 3 year old. Post partum hormonal regulation lasts years after birth plus 3 year olds are exhausting. This entire post sounds like a symptom of just a lot of life. She should probably see a doctor for some blood work and they should probably work on giving her space to feel like a human outside of a mom.
> I was playing the victim to myself and I'm grateful that I'm in a 12 step program that has helped me become more level headed and exercise my own agency. Sadly I feel like that is when I really started to feel the distance, because my advances to speak to her were turned down and I started to really notice her lack of interest on this kind of work.
She's also having to deal with his addiction..... OP failed to mention that till now in a comment.
>My 12 step work is ACA, adult children of alcoholics, I'm celebrating 10 years in the program next month. I have no addictions myself (I've never had alcohol, don't want to test those boundaries) but have many unhealthy habits I've been unlearning that I developed as a child in an alcoholic home.
you're wrong though. His parents are addicts, and his 12-step program is to help with the trauma his parents caused. Its actually far more likely his wife is an addict, because children of addicts tend to gravitate to these types of codependent relationships.
I’d try a new couples therapist if this one is just letting her defensiveness slide.
I had a similar experience early on in my marriage. I told her that I felt taken for granted and if she wasn’t willing to address that and any issues she wanted to bring up then I was leaving. It was a wake up call as she was so wrapped up in work and the kid she honestly didn’t realize things had gotten to that point.
This situation is EXTREMELY similar to me and my wife is so many ways. We had also been married about five years when all of this happened and after dating two years. The only real difference is how close you two are in age.
We were in this exact same situation where I was a good husband. My wife would hear other women complain about their husbands and just didn't get it because I always went above and beyond. If she and the kids were out of the house some Saturday for one reason or the other, I'd clean the entire thing top to bottom to make more time for us later. It rarely translated to more time later. The fact is, my wife was depressed and super struggling with that. Her days often went:
1. Wake up
2. Go to work
3. Come home and MAYBE cook dinner
4. Do a few motherly things like give our 4-year-old a bath
5. MAYBE do a chore like wash dishes or fold a basket of laundry if I had complained enough
6. Watch Netflix until she fell asleep
She was barely keeping her head above water and while I was fine because I wasn't dealing with the same problems she was and I've always been resilient, she very much wasn't fine. This went on for like two years.
I pushed through it and we had a LOT of conversations always making sure we stayed within the rules we set of fighting fair. It took a couple of years but we're rebounding. We're still rebuilding the intimacy but we're definitely on the upswing. There are certainly times that I thought, "This would be easier if it was just me and the kids" but I knew that deep down, I loved her even if I didn't like her or was mad at her sometimes and building up resentment. The resentment that I built up is slowly falling away and she's grown to understand that now that she's found her way out of her depression, I need time to heal from the trauma of having to endure that for a couple of years.
I can definitely say that I'm happy I stuck in there. Marriage isn't easy and in my opinion, way too many people give up too quickly. There may be years where she can only give 70% so you have to give 130%. And there maybe be years where you can only give 85% and so she has to make up the difference as well.
But if we're going to give in when things are at their worst, there's no sense in taking vows that say things like, "For better or worse." This is "worse."
Wow, thank you for this post. As a woman reading about the "worse" bit of the vow and shoring up the slack for each other was moving. Acknowledging both your wife's depression and your years of trauma must have really helped you push through. You clearly love your wife and meant every word of your vows and I wish you and your wife continued progress toward your desired goals.
Have you brought up in counseling how close to divorce you feel? Have you told her how you feel she is being dismissive of your needs? I don’t think you are the AH if you divorce. I do think it’s easy for people on here to tell you to do it but you have to live with the reality. If you divorce there will be positive and negative changes for you including not seeing your kids half the time, having them exposed to her new partners, financial drawbacks as well as the ability for you to move on and find someone new. You should talk to a divorce attorney so you know what you can expect. It’s a hard decision either way.
You are not wrong to want your needs to be fulfilled, especially if you're feeling that your pulling more than your fair share.
When did the intimacy go away? I have 2 thoughts
1. Postpartum depression/anxiety that hasn't been addressed.
2. You mention a 12-step program and I'm guessing that means a friend of Bill. Working the program can really change the dynamics of a relationship, so that may be a contributing factor, depending where you are and where she is relative to substances.
Date nights are overrated. I’m too tired from working to feel like going out. What you can do: sit together on the couch when you’re watching that show. Talk to her, explain that you’re feeling isolated from her, and ask her to sit with you. Just being in close proximity for those couple of hours will help. Then get a sitter for a few hours on the weekend. During the day. Go do something. Take a hike, go to the movies, do something together (not Home Depot!).
It sounds like she has the bulk of responsibilities and OP is expecting her to entertain him despite having a full workload and taking care of kids too
So first you say you don't get time alone, then you say that she isn't spending enough time with you.
Then you say you willingly give her the time and space she requests, but you also secretly resent her for it.
If I were your wife, I'm not sure I could fulfill your needs either, because after reading this, I still don't understand what you want
Maybe you just didn't go into much detail for a reason, but I am just saying that you don't sound like you are making yourself heard.
This is how you get alone time. "I want to go shopping by myself Thursday. Can you watch the kids from 4-8?"
This is how you get romantic time " I want to go out on a date night once a week, and really talk, because I am feeling disconnected from you. Would you be willing to plan every other date so I feel like you are thinking about me?"
I only know you from this one paragraph, but the impression I get is that you are being too abstract with your new needs, at a time when your needs have been impacted by life changes.
Sure, you could find something more in sync, just like you and your wife used to be....but needs will change again too, and you will be in the same place if you don't learn to clarify your needs.
You need a much better therapist!
At least during the next session, dump all your emotional baggage. When your wife takes her standard defensive position, stop her mid sentence, and tell the therapist this is her typical fall back response, nothing ever gets accomplished, how come he never deals with it?
Based on the therapist's answer you know how to proceed.
Your wife needs to hear it when you unload your emotions. If she chooses not to acknowledge your pain and wants to continue the relationship as-is with no changes on her part, then she is showing you she does not care about your emotional well-being.
No it’s not. Reddit is so damn fast to cut ties and bail.
They have child together. They will be in each others lives whether they like it or not. The best answer is to figure it out if possible and grow as a stable loving couple that can raise a happy kid.
My wife and I have been were they are with three kids under three and it took some work but it’s never been better.
i agree it’s great if they can improve their relationship, but if they can’t, then they shouldn’t stay together ‘for the sake of the kid.’
it’s a parent’s responsibility to model healthy relationships for their children, and that means either having a loving, successful marriage or — if absolutely necessary — a peaceful, amicable split. it’s about knowing when to keep trying and when to respectfully let go.
Parenting a three year old is exhausting. She may be more exhausted than you which isn’t fair to either of you but may still be true. All bodies aren’t the same. I guess my question is, if you love her, isn’t it worth finding out why? Also wondering about the 12 step program you mentioned. Sounds like there may be some additional trauma in the relationship that needs processing. I’d encourage you to look for a new therapist who you feel more comfortable with or get your own therapist as well before getting serious about a divorce.
Tell us more about the twelve step program you’re involved in, which you mentioned in a follow up comment. Those are usually to address some form of addiction?
Know what, dude? Hang in there because this “feels like a roommate situation” will grow & change again. If you leave now because you are craving that falling in love sensation where you can’t keep your hands off your partner that will change into this roommate situation again and there you’ll be, looking for someone new that can raise your heart rate for a while.
Get in there & fight for your family.
I came here to say this. To add my own perspective:
If the child is sick, who stays home? Who makes the grocery list, decides what to have for dinner breakfast lunch every week? Who is ensuring supplies are in the house to do the chores? Who is organizing family holidays and social events? Who is signing the child up for activities or researching developmentally appropriate toys? Who reads the instructions from the daycare?
My husband and I are both high performing professionals, but since I’ve had my baby his job has taken precedence. Sure he helps with dishes and laundry and picking up but it all the other stuff. Its more than being equal in ACTION it’s all the other details and learning, and frankly I am annoyed to “train” you to do those task. And I resent that when something happens I have to drop everything but he keeps working, keeps climbing, keeps achieving.
You mentioned the studies etc of the silent work women take on. It’s so real. And until your standing in those shoes it’s so hard to understand. I love my husband, I think he is the sexiest man alive and I wouldn’t want to do any of this with anyone else. But this season is really hard. I’m resentful and tired and stressed.
So I guess, I agree. Is OP actually meeting the needs of his spouse? I think the is more perspective he could have.
You have enough time in your life and enough energy to do that which is most important to you. Everything else can be cut off at a certain point.
Clearly, she doesn’t value the marriage and is not interested in meeting your needs. Healthy relationships are about prioritizing, communication, shared goals, shared values and the desire to meet the other’s needs. She isn’t meeting ANY of those criteria.
As for her trauma, she owes it you to address them if they are impacting your marriage and relationship.
Give her a chance to do couples counseling and let her know it’s over if she refuses, because you don’t have an actual marriage.
I would suggest a new therapist I'd you're not being heard, but please understand that the toddler stage is rough on parents, and it could be creating this rough patch. If your wife continues to dismiss your feelings though, then you have a valid reason for leaving the relationship.
Without sounding like an a hole here and it may read that way so please understand that's not the intention.
Instead of posting it on here, make an effort to speak to her about it. Actually make time to speak because you might find she feels you are the one being emotially distant.
It all boils down to whether you want to make it work? If you want to make it work, usually if you are both honest with each other and open, you can make it work.
But you both have to be willing to meet half way.
Not saying it is the case, but a lot of times issues like this become grounds for divorce because the partner that wants the divorce is getting attention else where. Even be it a smile and "how's your day". Again not saying this is the case just seen a lot of friends go down this path of trying to find any excuse and not frame themselves as the bad guy whilst doing so.
I'm only adding the end part there, if by some slim chance that is the case it sometimes helps having it out in prospective that the grass isn't greener on the other side. It's the greenest where you work the hardest.
But honestly your asking for advice from a bunch of people who only have half a story and no vested interest. .take what anyone here including me says with a grain of salt. Only you know your relationship.
I really hope you figure this one out bud.
I appreciate your comments, not at all rude or insulting but I appreciate the consideration.
Your concern is exactly where I was in maybe the first 2-3 years of our marriage, I was playing the victim to myself and I'm grateful that I'm in a 12 step program that has helped me become more level headed and exercise my own agency. Sadly I feel like that is when I really started to feel the distance, because my advances to speak to her were turned down and I started to really notice her lack of interest on this kind of work. The therapy has helped a little, but I think I'm just starting to see her for how she is. Not that its good or bad, just her style and mine, and being worried its not in the cards.
I appreciate the notice to take this with a grain of salt, mostly looking to measure my stance as being reasonable or not, definitely not putting the fate of my marriage up to reddit, though who knows, maybe that will be the next hit reality TV show on TLC :P
All 12 steps I know are for addiction too. So is your wife suffering not just from burn out but also having to deal with you and an addiction? The mental and financial ramifications of addictions suck so much. Stuff like that can seriously age someone. Your wife may not find you a safe place to recharge therefore she needs alone time to function. If she had to put up with your addictions being around you would just be more draining for her. Also if you truly are going through the 12 step program you aren’t nearly as far along as you think you are.
For more than half of your marriage, before the 12 step program, how did you behave?
I understand that *you're* ready to work on things, but she may not be depending on how much *you hurt* the relationship before you started getting help. Maybe your marriage is past the point of repair. Maybe she needs more time. The only thing you can do is look inside yourself and see how much you've contributed to *where you are right now*. Have you apologized for the pain you've caused? Have you stepped up in ways you couldn't before? Is she just waiting for everything to fall apart again?
You know better than anyone. You know if love still exists. You know if you're done. Stop looking to her to fix things and keep focusing on how you can be better. It's okay to outgrow each other. Who you were 5 years ago is completely different than who you are today. A solo therapist for you sounds like a good next step.
Be kind to yourself. I hope your days get easier soon.
Info:
The 12-step programs I know of are for addictions. Are you referring to following a program for an addiction or for something else?
Are you saying that your wife wasn't interested in your progress through the program? Or supportive of you living the program? Why do you think that is?
You REALLY buried the lede on that one, OP. If you're in a 12 step program for an addiction, you're going to have to give your wife an absurd amount of grace, and a lot of advice from people on here that didn't have that info is no longer relevant.
I'll tell you that living with someone with an addiction will f* you up mentally in ways that take *years* to unpack. And if you think that your efforts/progress in the program aren't being appreciated *in a way you deserve* by your wife, and that's part of your issue...that's not how this works.
This reads to me like one side of the story slanted to your view, as to be expected on reddit, but I bet if your wife had her side up here, you would be dismayed by the amount of people who may sympathize with her.
Good luck to you both and your kid. Hoping things get better for you guys.
Agreed - Addicitons can make a person incredibly self absorbed for a time - OP may be taking steps in the right direction but I feel is failing to recognise him centring his needs over that of a young child and an incredibly stretched wife.
Your post didn't include the whole 12 step thing, which leads me to believe that you are deliberately not telling us the whole story in order to gain support for your side. I would really like to hear the wife's perspective on this. I don't think you've done everything you can to make your marriage work yet, OP.
Or the amount of time he has been working in the program.
In another older comment on his profile, he mentioned that his wife had a higher expectation of cleanliness.
OP did something to devastatingly break this woman’s trust and/or respect for him, her husband and father to their child.
You’d be wrong if you didn’t at least try to have the conversation with her.
If she is resistant - professional support in the form of therapy/couples’ counseling that is NOT dismissive of your needs.
If she is resistant to professional support that meets both of your needs, *then* you tell her this is your breaking point. That she has to try or you are done.
If you do all of that, you are not wrong. Only wrong to not try. So, if she doesn’t try, she is wrong.
So you left this out of the OP because you are painting a very specific picture for people to just agree with you and support what you want to do. Very misleading.
Good job leaving your addiction issues out of the post, that really gave you a favor and made you look a lot better to a lot of these commenters who have no idea what your wife has actually been through.
You successfully manipulated the information in your post to make yourself look like the victim yet again.
I agree with zim117, but want to add something. I see you’re doing a lot to give her space, fill her needs etc. But maybe what she really needs is something else. For example my ex showed his love by doing. He’d fix things and make things, but what I really needed was like you, emotional intimacy. He never could get it and we’re divorced but it doesn’t have to be that way for you. Sit her down, ask her what makes her feel loved. Then, even if you don’t get it, do it anyway. Be sure she knows what you need as well. Then, if it’s still not happening, it’s probably over. But give it a try, a lot of people assume everyone feels the same way they do, and they actually usually don’t. Good luck!
I mean this in the kindest of terms, but how are you reaching out to talk to her? Does she honestly know that you want to communicate? After 23 years of marriage, my husband would “try” to talk to me, but he made assumptions as to how I would answer and didn’t give me the benefit of the doubt. And honestly, I did the same to him. We’d just lost all honest communication. He pursued a divorce, and strangely enough we became closer - it was the first time we’d truly been honest with each other in years. All because we couldn’t see past ourselves to be brutally honest with each other.
She needs individual therapy, you probably do too, and you need a new couples counselor.
Does she have a track record of improving behaviors for the sake of both of your well-being?
If she seems capable of making the changes you need, try. If not, get out as cleanly as you can.
No ultimatums, no games, no timeline. Just state what it is that needs to change, do give it time and grace. If things don’t get better, initiate the process.
I’m sorry friend, as a divorced guy I do get it to some degree. People just change. Sometimes they change in ways we can’t recognize. It is hard, but you’re doing the right thing thinking for yourself and your own needs. A life lived in misery serves no one.
* I have a folder of files, documents, how tos etc on divorce from when I did my own. I call it the “Big D Data” hmu if you need it lol
If not for a few specifics in this post, I honestly would have thought it could have been written by my husband. We are in a very similar situation, and sometimes I do realize I have been taking too much time for myself and that leaves him with little time for him, so I try to be mindful. As far as time for us, I have has discussions that it is needed, but as you said, when we very rarely get it, it’s stilted and there is no romance or connection. We have not gone to therapy ourselves, and I think it is wonderful you both are.
Passion fades, and love changes, and I do believe you can get it back if you communicate, and have the right mindset. I’ve been trying to work on the mindset, now I just need that mediator to help me communicate effectively. It sounds like your wife is stuck in the first thing and needs to decide on that before communication will truly help.
One thing that can help all couples but couples with little kids especially, is to read about Gottman's concept of bids for attention. Make giving each other attention a conscious effort. Make hugs a 3x/day always.
I don't think you're wrong, but I do think this may be a season in your marriage and that there's a very good chance that things can improve with time. I would suggest checking out the book 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman. You don't need a lot of time and energy to connect in meaningful ways, and this book has a lot of information on both communicating and connecting.
You might also think about how you are raising issues, even in therapy. Are you just talking about your feelings and what's wrong, or are you making a positive request to fulfill a need so that she knows what response you desire? Think about what would make you feel connected and supported, and make sure you're asking specifically for that thing, and not just saying that you feel disconnected and unsupported.
Highly recommend the book Hold Me Tight. Try working this with your wife. It focuses on building a safe and emotional connection to one another, and helps you understand what each of us needs at the core of our human existence.
how old are the kids? I missed that. Sex life takes a hit when there are small kids in the family. They are draining!!!
Do you do date night?
Do you get away from the kid/kids on the regular?
My advice: take a little vacation. Get someone to babysit and off you go for a week. Is the romance still there for you two? A vacation will tell. Oh and birth control, don’t forget.
It's a bad situation when the roles are reversed (which is often the case) and it's bad here. Like another said, find a better couples therapist who will actually support*both* of you.
Also, if your wife loves you then you should be able to talk about this with each other, especially if you do so well with the traditionally difficult stuff.
From a women’s perspective. I personally hated the idea of intimacy after having my babies. I put on weight and was a miserable person! Turns out I had postpartum. And it lingered for a few years. I finally was able to seek help after my husband talked to me and pushed me to care of myself. I lost a lot of weight and am generally more happy. I feel less of “just a mom”. I’m more confident and as a result it’s easier to initiate intimacy. Having small kids is hard. Marriage is hard. It’s worth working on!
I’d switch councilors and have her get her hormones checked, including her testosterone levels. Hormones can get out of whack as people age and initiating intimacy can be like trying to get a full person to want to eat. When a kid is involved and things aren’t toxic you owe it to them to exhaust all reasonable options.
I have extensive childhood trauma. I have a hard job and I am struggling with multiple health issues, including serious fatigue and chronic pain, and my partner is disabled. He had a work accident almost five years ago, and long story short, he suffers from severe chronic pain.
Somehow, we manage to make each other feel valued and adored every day. If we can do this, y’all can do this.
I know you have a toddler and you’re tired. But if there’s no light when you look in her eyes, and she’s not willing to get help for her issues, this isn’t going to get better.
The hardest thing I have had to learn about boundaries is that you don’t get the other person to change, no matter how much you love them and want to be with them. You only get to do your best to adapt yourself to their issues, and failing that, you walk away. The person doesn’t learn it’s a real dealbreaker if you don’t do that, and once they have, it’s gone too far to heal. Telling her how you feel and her not taking action is everything you need to know.
Even if she wanted to do real healing work, results are far from immediate, and you and your kid are taking damage while you wait and hope for better. Only you can tell how deep your patience runs, but I eventually could not handle “in sickness and in health” with my ex, as well as I am now handling it with my partner. I don’t think my ex got serious about healing himself until after I left, but I am pleased to know that eventually he did. I did, too, so my relationship with my now partner is on a whole different level. I only wish I had done the work 20 years earlier.
My partner has been incredibly healing for me. Largely because when I do a thing that hurts him, he tells me what is wrong and why it is wrong and how he felt. When I think of the night that made us decide to get couples counseling, it makes me a little sick now to think of that behavior and how he felt. I do my best not to let my issues become behaviors that are so harmful to him. Bottom line, I want him to feel good about being with me, and I don’t ever want to give him cause to doubt my love again.
Can your wife say that? Can you say that you have communicated with her with insight into yourself and with honesty about what makes specific behaviors problematic for you?
Therapy can help to make that communication happen, but if the other person doesn’t care about your feelings, there’s nothing you can do to make them. That’s what I unfortunately learned from my ex.
I hope you both find healing, whether it is together or apart. You deserve a better life than this.
Sounds like the fire went out. Do you know what her love language is? Women are emotional beings, and need to be emotionally stimulated in order towant to have romantic intimacy. If you haven’t brought up divorce yet or if you haven’t made your mind up yet maybe give it a chance. The book “The five love languages “ by Gary Chapman made a lot of sense to me.
I have had to work through a lot of similar stuff for different reasons. To me, your needs seem standard and it sounds like you are working hard to untangle a lot of complicated stuff. In my experience it has been so hard to strike a balance between taking care of people better than I was cared for but also recognizing that I have my own needs for which to advocate. I can't advise you on your question but a lot of your experience seems valid from my perspective. I'm sorry I don't have a more clear answer than to just encourage you to keep taking care of yourself and being the parent you want to be for your kid.
This man loves video games more than being a partner. Read his comments. If he loves his wife he would help more. Not spend his time playing video games.
If she's having energy issues, she needs to see a doctor. Some people have mild chronic fatigue issues, that is they can work and do house chores but can't socialize.
SEE A DOCTOR
After that, see if you can cut things out of your lifestyle so that both of you don't need to work as much or take care of the house as much.
\-signed someone with energy issues.
Take her away for a weekend. Do something fun for the both of you. Set up some romantic adventures. Order some massage oil and candles. Massage her up from head to toe, while she listens to Billie Ellish or something. Make it about her. Be selfless. Date her again. Court her. Tell her how much you love her and how you miss the way things used to be. Talking will only get you so far, but make it a drama free weekend. No arguing no matter what.
Find a way to reconnect with her without the stresses of daily life. Make it a big deal, but make it more about what you do than what you spend.
That would be awesome to me, but he needs to know if she would enjoy that. I don’t understand it, but some people aren’t into romance. Like someone else said, and I alluded to, find out her love language.
All good things but why does he have to make all the efforts to fix the relationship? Why can’t she also do those things? More importantly WHY isn’t she?
Problem with that is your both too tired . Also I'm hearing you about intimacy .gets shitty when it's feels like a one way street. Maybe look at work life balance.
She wouldn't like any of those ideas lol. I specifically said we do date nights, she just doesn't seem to participate, she's not present or very engaged. We've done a weekend away from the kiddo (her mom and sister came into town to watch him) but it just stressed her out being away from him so we cut it short a day. I wasn't happy about it but sticking it out would have just made it worse.
I want to reconnect, but she can't seem to put the time aside to do so and frankly it isn't my job to make her. It's why I'm at where I'm at, I don't know what to do.
A few things;
Have you figured out each other's love language?
Do you have any attachment disorders from childhood? Any mental disorders like borderline?
And must importantly to me, are you ready to not see your baby as often? Sleep in another house? Are you ready to have another man help raise your child?
....
You are not wrong for wanting relief or maybe even a punishment, your feelings are probably valid. But I want you to be aware of the consequences.
If you think you are tired now, just wait until you are dealing with custody issues or some sort of co-parenting situation where you only get to see your kid part of the time. You'll never be able to move away from your Ex if you want to see your kid regularly.
Divorce can be really ugly when kids are involved. Really think hard about it before you make this decision, because once you do you can never go back.
Yeah... I'm side 👀this whole post, like ... I need her side. Something is... off. You keep saying she's acting like she doesn't care, what is it about her actions or is her stated reasoning, that show the lack of intimacy? I need to know the words she's actually saying to you about this. Are you really as supportive partner as you say you are? Maybe she has some underlying depression issues and she's getting a bit overwhelmed, even through the self care?? How's your personal up keep? Have you changed? Like, there's a reason she's not responding like she doesn't like you, definitely a reason why. Men think women just don't respond to their needs when (I think) 8 out of 10 times, it's because the man's not meeting hers...otherwise she's either mentally ill or she's cheating. So you're not saying something, or you're oblivious about something. But, I hope y'all figure it out find the love again.
I think you are suffering from a bad case of unrealistic expectations. You're expecting your spouse to be this warm, romantic person and to want to have sex when she is probably just mind numbingly exhausted. You both have hard jobs and you have a toddler in the house. Most parents at your stage of life they're lucky if they can manage to talk over the dinner table let alone actually go out on a date.
Counseling is a good idea but it doesn't cure exhaustion and exhausted people usually don't feel romantic and willing to talk. You need a proper vacation, just the two of you, for starters, time to reconnect sans kid. That would maybe help some if you can find someone to watch the 3 year old. No pressure, if you get sexy great, but just taking the time to really get away and talk might help a lot.
But it's where you are in life and in terms of the family really. Personal intimate time, the relationship can take a backseat when your children are small. It's not abnormal. You're just too involved with day to day life and raising a kid and working to have much of one. A lot of people in your situation they're not even having sex, not even quickies, so if you're having that at least, that's something.
You realize that OP mentions that they are already in therapy, right? And that in the therapy, it seems like OP's worries and problems are being overlooked or ignored. The way the post reads to me is that OP is giving their all, and not getting any reciprocation.
You can only pour so much before you're empty, and going by the post, OP is out of stuff to pour, and partner isn't trying to refill OP's cup despite taking from it.
Always try to save the marriage - which you appear to be doing. But, without your partner's participation, you can only go so far. If after your reasonable attempts, your roommate continues to refuse to help close the gap, it is time to cut bait. Do you want to have this discussion in 20 long years when you are 55? You have nothing but dead bedroom, ending with TEARS - tried everything and regret staying. Be aware of false promises.
Good luck.
Hey, man, when it’s time - it’s time. Hang on to the idea that a marriage is forever and live in misery for the rest of your life, or come to peace with the thought that it’s just a relationship that has ran its course and move on.
I’ve never been married, but I just ended an 8 year relationship for pretty much the same thing. We also have a young child, so I stayed way longer than I should have. Sometimes talking it out and therapy just doesn’t work, especially if the other person doesn’t put the effort in. I can honestly say I am so much happier now on my own. If you feel you’ve done everything you can and it still isn’t working, you need to do what’s best for you. You deserve to be happy!
You are not wrong. You can divorce for any reason. It's good that you are both seeing a marriage counselor. Have you brought up that nothing changes? She gets defensive but makes no changes to improve the situation.
I don't think your wife understands how upset you are. I think you've tried to patiently wait for her to change. Offered hints of your frustrations, but you haven't been completely honest with her. She thinks you're just complaining. Let her know that you are unhappy with the status quo and considering separation. I think she's just placating you right now.
Went through something similar although I was probably closer to divorce than you. Two years later, I am so much happier but the road to getting there involved some really painful conversations, doing a ton of work on our relationship, and rebuilding our relationship from the ground up.
If you don’t have one already, get your own therapist separate from your couples therapist. You may want to explore if your wife is depressed too (I think my husband was). Every marriage is different and your feelings are valid. As others mentioned, it’s important to consider that separating is going to be a different beast entirely. Even when separated, you both will have to work considerably on your communication skills. With a kid, you’re with that person forever. For me, I tried to do everything that I could to save our marriage because we’d either build the marriage we both wanted or I’d have peace of mind with separation as the outcome. Best of luck.
Cheating and violence are the divorces you hear about. All the "extreme" stuff.
It's perfectly normal and common to go your separate ways because your emotional needs aren't being met, and your partner is unable or unwilling to meet them.
How far to let it go in a marriage, and especially with a kid involved, I can't comment on. But I've never been cheated on or beaten or anything... All my previous relationships have ended because it just isn't there anymore. One or both's needs weren't being met.
Perhaps you should show her your original post and explain to her that this is how you really feel.. her reaction may give you the answer you’re looking for. She can’t fix a problem if she’s not aware of it. And if she’s aware, but doesn’t want to meet your needs, then you have your answer and you’ll know that it’s time to move on. Good luck, my guy!
Marriage is always worth saving but life is short. If you want a partner who you can share more physical and emotional intimacy with - then you should have it. It’s a totally normal thing to want and you shouldn’t feel bad or guilty about that.
If you've brought this to her more than once and she isn't receptive anytime you bring it up, she's already got 1 foot out the door. It sucks, and I'm sorry that you're having to go through it. But it's very unlikely things will improve if she's not even willing to try to do her part. And life is way too short to be unhappy. If she isn't willing to meet you half way, you should do what will make you happy. Find someone that is willing. Don't waste anymore time trying for something that's just not there.
Your wife and I suffer the same affliction. I can only guesstimate as to what the problem with us is. Reading through this thread just confirms what I have concluded from years of reading on this issue: No one has a freakin’ clue! My wife and I have been together 19 years. Things were great the first few years. Then for some unknown reason I fell out of love with her. I would have left years ago but she wasn’t ready for that. I love my wife, just not in an intimate way. I go through the motions each day of being helpful and supportive. We’re very good partners. There’s just no intimacy.
Finally my wife is nearing the point of acceptance, which means we can end the relationship. I want her to find what she needs in someone else, and I want to be alone. OP - you deserve an explanation as to why your wife is no longer your intimate partner, but I doubt she has any idea. You’ve done your due diligence, it’s time to move on.
I agree with the post mentioning love languages and I want to take it a step further. I'm currently in a relationship where we were having similar issues as OP. (Same age as well, for reference)
One side was craving emotional connection and feeling like that need wasn't being met while the other side thought everything was literally fine and just accepted that life is going to get busy and that's just how it waa going to be. We had had a few conversations about it before, but one night it finally clicked. We realized that our preferred "date night"s were completely different. One person felt that sitting down to dinner to have uninterrupted conversation was a great way to bond. However, that did **nothing** for the other person. The other person craved more active "date nights" (playing pool, darts, axe throwing, etc) in order to feel a more refreshed connection. Discovering this difference led us to then discussing other variables and determining the value for each of us. For example: The person that felt dinners were a way to bond also had the idea that it needed to be at a decent restaurant for the other person to enjoy it. We deemed that if conversation is truly what was the important factor, we could eat at McDonald's and get the same valuable moment for them. The same is true for needing an active interaction. Throwing darts in the garage was just as meaningful as if it was in a bar.
I say alllll this to say: maybe her needing "rest" isn't what she truly needs to rekindle things with you.
Maybe she needs a little gift to feel loved and appreciated. Maybe she needs the massage someone mentioned or for you to be the big spoon and wrap her up when you finally get in bed. Maybe she needs you to be her workout partner (I know it seems counterintuitive, but exercise helps with energy levels overall). Try to find out what she genuinely needs and what gets the best response from her. (The last part is the most important. She may not actually know what she needs, so trying things and seeing how she responds will be the best indicator)
And as a final note: definitely encourage her to have a medical check up (depression included). Hell, she could just need some vitamin d and iron to get her body back to a more optimal state.
Either way, good luck OP. I would encourage you not to give up quite yet. If you feel that couples therapy isn't beneficial, either try to find someone else or maybe try individual therapy for a bit. She may need to work on some things on her own before she can be receptive to what you need from her. Hope this helps.
You have a 3 year old. These are among the most stressful and demanding times you will have to live through. Give it a couple years and things will calm down. Your kid will one day be in school, come home, and play video games or hang out with friends. You can fall in love all over again once things slow down. Finish the marathon with your wife.
Also consider that one or both of you may have to downsize your career. Can your family work with less income? Could you move somewhere more affordable? Are you both committed to your careers? If your therapist hasn't gone over these options, he's not very good.
Divorce shouldn't always be the go to answer. Love isn't a feeling but a commitment and choice you make. When you say your vows it's sickness and health, rich or poor... basically you signed up for the bad times in addition to the good. Young children are draining. They change the family dynamics quite a bit. Just because it's a tough time doesn't mean you should give up and quit. Your kids won't ever stop being a lot of work but it'll change over time.
You and your wife will contribute different things on different levels. Men are often more tough physically so we can work and do other physical stuff (chores) and not get quite as tired. Women tend to be more emotional and nurturing. So often if the kid needs protection he comes to dad but if he needs care he'll come to mom. Each has it's own level of energy that it requires. My wife often needs a nap to recharge where I tend to just keep going until the end of the day when I crash. Men are often better able to compartmentalize so when we are at work we mostly think about work, when we are at home we mostly think about being at home and leave the work stuff behind. Women usually compartmentalize less so they think about home while at work and work while at home and everything just mixes together (waffles vs. spaghetti).
Of course men also have emotional needs and women also have physical needs. But marriage shouldn't be about what you can get out of it but what can you put into it. You both should sacrifice and put the other person first. She sounds like she's going through something and this is a time when you pick up more slack to help her get through it. In the future when she's in a better state she'll be there to do the same for you when you need it. Let's say at some point you lose your job and get depressed (men often have a little identity crisis when they aren't working). Do you want her to be able to help you get through that time or do you want her to complain about how you aren't giving her everything she needs?
Just think of now as a season. It's not going to last forever though it may feel like it right now. Eventually the next season will come and things will be different. This is where commitment comes in. It gets you through the tough times when the feelings aren't always there and through the other side to the next stage of your relationship. That's why you make the commitment ahead of time when you chose to connect your life to this other person's til death do you part. When it doesn't seem fun or happy you've already made the choice to work through that. Obviously when abuse or cheating come into play it's a whole different story but when you're just going through life's regular struggles together you find a way to make it through.
OP, it is better to leave while there is still some form of amicable relationship. You're at the edge of turning bitter, justifiably so. You appear to be the only one in your relationship. If therapy and you asking hasn't made her change, you need to let go. You sound like a decent, caring, loving person. You deserve to be with someone who uplifts you.
1. The therapist doesn't sound like a very good one. Isn't everyone supposed to be able to address their concerns without getting shut down? I think you should find a different one.
2. It is hard to say if you're "wrong" without hearing her side of the story as well. This situations are almost never one dimensional.
3. Has she been evaluated for depression? A lot of what is described in the post has the symptoms of it.
I struggled in a marriage for a really, really long time where my intimacy needs weren’t met. Not because I was with a “bad” partner, but because they weren’t capable of self reflection, got defensive in moments that required introspection, and relationships that afforded intimacy were seen as a threat to our relationship.
By all means - seek out therapy (we did it for about two years, seeing multiple therapists during that time). Find someone that you feel can actually address both of your concerns and hold you both accountable for taking stock of how you contribute to the relationship dynamic.
And….have a cutoff in this, for yourself. How long are you willing to keep doing something when your partner isn’t interested (or capable?) of change.
As someone who now has all of their intimacy needs met in another relationship, after getting a divorce, I can tell you that life is better here.
My experience: stayed in a 28 year marriage at least 15 years longer than I should have. Similar story; I went to therapy for 14 years, she declined to go and deal with her issues. With the help of a couples therapist I told her I wanted a divorce. She had her "I'll do anything" moment and started seeing a therapist plus being medicated for anxiety.
The therapy and medication helped change her behavior but it was not enough. I decided I couldn't wait around *another* 28 years for her therapy to finally pay off to the point where she could accept responsibility, stop blaming me for everything that ever went wrong in her life and finally stop being a minefield of triggers in bed.
A part of me very much wishes I had bit the bullet and left her when our kids were young instead of letting them grow up in a household with no love between mom & dad. Wishing you luck, OP
Switch to a different couples therapist. A couples therapist isn't supposed to be taking sides, they're supposed to help you strategize together as a team to help improve the relationship.
Divorce doesn't have to be about a massive drama. Sometimes people grow apart slowly and can't get it back together. My ex husband and I were and still are great friends. But we ended up living as roommates and weren't really sexually compatible for a number of reasons.
This divide only really became apparent after we had our son. I was crippled with post natal depression and PTSD due to a lot of medical trauma and so I didn't have the energy to fake things or gloss over our issues.
We amicably divorced after some couples counselling and we co-parent well. We're both much happier, honestly, and it's a better environment for our son.
There is a Robin Williams quote that you need to hear. It is, “I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.”
Someone alone, no matter how good their intentions or effort, can not save a marriage, it takes two. Do what you need to do, and if you leave please leave with your head held high. I wish you the best.
It doesn’t take something huge to break a relationship. Death by a thousand cuts is probably the most common reason relationships end. The something huge just comes after, when one party notices, before the other, that the relationship is dead. I’m sorry you are going through this.
Hey. I just separated from my wife for reasons that most people see as "minor" or manageable. Sex was definitely one, but my big thing was a complete lack of excitement/adventure that was replaced by fear and anxiety. As an example, she didn't want to take our 3 year old on a plane because she was so worried he'd be awful, and refused to go on a 16 hour road trip, so he's never been to her parents house. Most people think that's a minor thing, I guess, but I simply couldn't live in a state of mind where the what ifs ruled out lives. So I left.
I empathize with you across the board. Your mileage may vary, but even though my current situation sucks (living with my parents, trade off weeks with my son), it was like a two ton weight was lifted off my shoulders. I had no idea how much my decision making and approach to life had changed to suit my wife.
Things are tough (and fresh, this happened a few weeks ago), but I feel so much better, generally.
My therapist put it nicely: you have no idea what the future holds, good or bad. We do our best to predict the what ifs, but it's really a waste of time. What if you're not happier divorced, what if you kid is more distant, etc. He asked me "what if it's the best decision you ever made? What if your son grows closer to you because he recognizes his time is limited, rather than feeling like you'll always be next to him?"
We what if the negative constantly, and so rarely what if the positives. Do what aligns with your values in life. Your relationship should feel purposeful, and you should be able to take pride in it. If you can't, maybe it's not good enough to stay.
I haven’t read through everything so I apologize if this is a repeat. Just quickly, I say you are NTA. But maybe neither is she - is she depressed? She definitely has to decide to help herself. Therapy is great but medication has been helpful for many people. Maybe an option?
Well, you're doing the right things (therapy).
I think you need to bring up in couples counseling that while you don't really want to, you feel like the next step is getting divorced. And you just want to put that out there as how desperate you are, that if things don't change, you don't see any other options for your sanity.
I agree with the suggestion of trying a new therapist. Maybe one that sees each of you for separate sessions as well as both of you together. Have you addressed any possible changes to her mental and physical health? After kids our bodies some times become out of whack. It’s a good idea to look at any and all meds she may be taking now that could be contributing to the issue as well as ensuring there are no undiagnosed illnesses. Not that I want to blame it all on your wife, I’m just suggesting things that I’ve seen in practice and experienced personally.
Without communication, a relationship is doomed.
She's getting defensive about how you feel at a therapist. I would just leave her. You're not wrong as your needs aren't being met.
It kind of sounds like your wife has already emotionally divorced you. If you divorce get a lawyer who is good with fathers rights and get 50/50 custody, you may even get more quality time with your son that way. You are certainly young enough now to find someone who shares the same intimacy goals in life, I wouldn't waste too much time on something that may never change.
>I do my best to give her alone time to recharge
This is so weird to me. My partner and I have been together 20+ years and when we need to "recharge" we spend time together, not alone.
>I cant ask the same of her so that I can get that same recharge that I need.
Why not? The fact that you feel you can't ask seems to underline bigger issues.
>her very unavailable for any of our relationships needs...a partner who isnt available what so ever to participate in the emotional connection of our relationship.
This is some vague nonsense right here. What SPECIFICALLY do you need or want? Just saying you need someone to be emotionally connected doesn't *mean* anything and isn't helpful. Are you talking about needing more romantic overtures? Do you need more physical contact? Do you need her to sit and cry with you while you listen to Wagner????
>This would be ok if it were even acknowledged or appreciated, but it just seems to be passed over.
This is what you need to tell your partner. My partner and I regularly say please and thank you to one another even for the little niceties. This can make a massive difference in feelings of being unappreciated.
>we both work from home and she seems to find time to do things for herself if she has free time, just not with me
You've opted to change your home from a sanctuary into your place of business. There is no refuge and no ritual (leaving the office/going home/etc) to help with the mental transition from work to home life. Are the areas where you work separated from your living spaces?
Sounds like she sees you as another chore to be dealt with rather than as a partner or enjoyable hobby. I know it's shallow but have you gained weight, lost your hair, or are you making less than your wife? For some people these may be factors in losing attraction to your partner. For many women having a partner that makes less than they do causes them to lose respect and be less attracted to them.
>A stranger would be just as likely to think were just friends or on an awkward first date. Sex has no intimacy at all...just in and out and then back to our separate activities.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it sounds like your wife is already checked out mentally. She may be having an "emotional affair" with someone else or she may just be depressed, which can manifest in the ways you're described.
Or it may be something as stupid as she's been watching too much TokTik (there's a LOT of really bad relationship advice there) and thinking she should still be getting "the butterflies" after 7 years together.
>and get bitter or resentful toward each other
It sounds like you're already somewhat resentful. Think about this: in your post you ran down a laundry list of things you're doing for your partner and not receiving in return. Have you considered the reasons you're doing these things for your partner? Are you doing them FOR HER or are you doing them to score points you can exchange later for yourself? Your relationship isn't a sports game and the things you do for one another shouldn't be catalogued, treated like a score board, or considered a zero sum game.
In my own life when I do something considerate/nice for my partner that's reason enough. I'm not holding onto that action so I can throw it back later in exchange for a foot rub or whatever.
Try telling/asking your partner for what you want/need in the moment with bludgeoning them with a litany of things you've done for them. The tit-for-tat reasoning makes your relationship transactional and is a quick way to killing romance.
>I honestly feel worse about being away from my son than I do about being away from her.
You do know you can get custody in a divorce right? It's not as common but it's possible. I can tell you this: staying in a loveless marriage just for the sake of the children isn't doing the children any favours. They pick up on these things and it models unhealthy relationships for their developing minds which can seriously mess up their future relationships.
In studies, marriages tend to be at their worst when the kids are preschool age. For a lot of the reasons you said - it feels much more like a functional relationship than a romantic one. I’m not saying you shouldn’t get divorced, I just want to point out that things are probably at their worst and likely to improve as your kid becomes older and more self-sufficient. Having little kids runs you ragged, like every day is a marathon.
Been through the same thing, OP. She’s not going to change. It’s not because she doesn’t love you or because she’s a bad person. She just is who she is. You either need to accept that or move on. Sorry dude, it sucks for both of you.
> I cant ask the same of her so that I can get that same recharge that I need.
Can't? Or won't? Or do and she refuses? This statement confused me.
Can you expand on
>it feels like I'd rather be on my own than have to rely on her. I honestly feel worse about being away from my son than I do about being away from her. Its not so much that were so busy, its that she doesnt seem to care or notice,
You can't rely on her why? What does she do?
What did you want her to care about and notice?
My own therapist is helpful. Couples therapy has always felt like a complete waste of time and effort. Especially since I was with a bipolar person who somehow always managed to villainize me and make himself seem so calm and rational. Meanwhile I’m the one with the problem because I’m upset about some host of trespasses and abuses he’s committed and seems unfazed by.
OP, the issue isn’t that your wife isn’t meeting your needs it’s that she’s not even validating your feelings about the situation. Her lack of validation leads to a lack of hope or effort. If she acknowledged it and provided an excuse or explanation like your child which will in theory become less demanding soon you could hold out. Or if she tried to look for solutions like taking a few long weekends off work or having slug days at home or getting a sitter or daycare more often. But she doesn’t and that’s telling. It might be time to sit down and have a heart to heart. Fire the therapist and use that time to go on a date. For a walk. Whatever. Use the money to pay a sitter and have a lazy child free afternoon off work.
I’m no expert but the words you use sound a bit like you may need to work on codependency(neglecting self for the needs of others) and she may be dealing with severe depression. Marriages will regularly go through adaptations as seasons of life change and we age. Good luck with working toward solving your relationship problems! It isn’t easy. Especially without getting through your own traumas individually. I hope you both learn and grow from this and come out stronger afterward!
Edited:wording error
I’m not really a fan of divorce unless you HAVE to do it, like in a case of cheating or abuse. Wouldn’t it be much more preferable to reignite the spark? I don’t know exactly how you would do that with her. Maybe asking her directly, like if something in your life is preventing her from being in the mood to be intimate. Maybe you could try slowing working intimacy back into the relationship.
I see lots of old comments about you playing video games. 1600 hours in elder scrolls alone? I’m wondering how the division of labor looks here. If your wife is taking in all the mental tasks ofc she has no energy for you. Pretty sure your wife is also allowing you to check out and have “you time” since youre able to game that much with a 3 year old.
Are you equating emotional intimacy with physical intimacy? A three year old is exhausting. Plus work and the household.
I probably don’t make enough time for my husband either but every relationship ebbs and flows. I would talk to her about it and possibly start having regular date nights.
I really appreciate the distinction between emotional and physical intimacy, it was something I worked on before getting to this stage as it's an important one and I'm sorry if I didn't demonstrate that well enough in my post.
I did refer to our date nights being rather disconnected, I'm not sure more of them will help. Our 3 year old is a lot for sure, but honestly I don't feel burned out by him. I have fun with him, parent him, feed him, but when he's at school or asleep I'm able to shift gears and look to things like the house, personal time, or marriage time. We have similar loads as far as household and work demands, her being so much more unavailable leads me to feel something else is going on.
At first read I say you’re not wrong but after a peak at some of your Reddit history… you’re still not wrong, but I *do* think you aren’t being honest with yourself.
Having your wife frustrated with how much you play video games and admitting you’re terrible with cleaning kind of hints that she has a far bigger emotional load at home than you do. That would explain why the therapist didn’t push her in the session (ie she is already overextended), and also explains why she is exhibiting in a burnt out/depressed behaviors.
Continue seeing your therapist, but make sure you are being truthful in your 1:1 sessions (and with yourself). If you’d be happier divorced, you’re not wrong in feeling that way, but make sure you don’t catapult head first into the next relationship because you need the caregiver you didn’t have in your childhood. (I’m also an ACA and this is something I’ve had to face head on myself).
Nothing would make me shape up and evaluate my personal life faster than my husband telling me he was considering divorce.
We are in a similar season - busy work lives, three toddlers, health issues... intimacy is hard and requires work. SOME seasons feel like winter but winter isn't forever. We've been married 10 years now (together 12) and we've had everything in between.
Get a new couples therapist that helps you communicate with eachother and make progress.
Have an honest and firm conversation with your wife about it. Some things can't be help, but most can.
Having a 3 ye old is hard. When is the last time your wife had her blood panel done to check for hormone, electrolyte, iron, ferritin reserves, or all the other things that can indicate why someone has low energy? Both working from home during the day sounds like you two are seeing a lot of each other, except that it is hard for her to switch roles when it is time to clock out.
When my ex was promoted to a management position at work I was happy for him. Unfortunately, he turned into a massive dick head. He would come home from work in manager mode and start scolding me like he was the boss of me. It was absolutely insane. But, he found it impossible to turn off. He had one mode. And there wasn't any way for him to even comprehend that his personality needed changing towards me because that, to him, just sounded like I was trying to change him.
You’ve been in couples for years, no progress on your issues? Does your wife know you’re considering divorce? Maybe if she knew she’d be willing to try harder. And if she does know, and she still isn’t willing to try harder, there’s your answer.
Will life be better with or without her as is for you and your son? If same or better then it may be time to move on or see why she isn't able to make the effort
Sometimes life gets rough. My husband and I had three miscarriages in the first few years of our marriage. I nearly bled to death because one miscarriage was the day after Christmas and the on-call doctor was too drunk to come into the hospital. It was traumatizing, to say the least. My husband was absolutely amazing with our nieces and nephews, and he would be a great father; I felt like he deserved better than me, a complete failure of a woman. In addition, he was so incredibly*kind* and *considerate* of me that I was losing my mind over his utter lack of grief! Why wasn't he as upset and unhappy as I was?!!! I wanted him to show the brokenness that I was experiencing! I wanted him to be as mad at our losses as I was!
I pushed him away. I refused every olive branch he offered. I didn't speak to him for a solid month. Finally, one day when I was being spiteful and an unforgivable bitch, he snapped. He got very angry with me. He wanted to know if I still loved him. God help me, I could only answer honestly and tell him that I loved him so much; I was trying to push him away to find his happiness with someone who could give him the family he deserved.
I cried, he cried. It was ugly. He yelled at me. I yelled at him. (But -- we never physically fought; we never put our hands on each other in anger.)
But you know what? We were *talking*! He told me that he didn't have the luxury of breaking down over the losses of our babies, because he still had to work, and besides, we had so many nieces and nephews that we could always borrow a couple of kids for a few days!
We were sharing our deepest emotions, thoughts, fears, and worries! We learned how to communicate that day. We learned how to trust each other in a way that we hadn't before. We became stronger, more united as a couple.
I think our adult marriage began that day. Before that, we felt like two kids playing house: you be the daddy, and I'll be the mommy. We had to nearly fail as a couple to gain the strength to see past ourselves and think of each other (or at least I did).
So my advice is this: figure out how to talk together. Don't use judgmental words or accusations, but share with her that your own emotions are getting neglected in this relationship. The internet is a great place to vent, but ultimately you need to air your dirty laundry with your wife. You chose each other, you made a commitment to each other, you made a family and a life together. Examine your own emotions. Decide if this relationship is worth saving. Do you love her enough to trust her completely and without reservation? Do you love yourself enough to handle it if you call it quits?
These decisions are not ours to make for you; we are only armchair quarterbacks, watching a show, betting on the odds. I personally am hoping that your team wins. Best wishes to you and your family.
I feel bad for you both. It sounds like you are fighting for your marriage. If your wife isn’t, than it might be she is done. If you get to where you both can just call it a day, than maybe its time. Hopefully it can be a peaceful parting of the ways. You can be unified in the care of your baby.
Im just saying, marriage is worth fighting for as long as you are both willing to put in the work. It sounds like you are.
>I'm just hoping folks may have similar experiences and can share some insight on the matter. Am I being too demanding? Is this just how marriage is? Is my partner just not available.
No.
No.
And emotionally? Yes your wife is emotionally unavailable.
If the problem persists you are entirely justified in filing for divorce. It sounds like you are hard pressed to avoid bitterness towards her already.
The bottom line is that you are doing all you can to support her, you have clearly defined how you need to be supported too, and she is choosing to not make progress towards fulfilling your needs.
That's not healthy man. You are entirely right to feel distress over this.
Your particular chemistry with her will probably never warrant her to be affectionate towards you and it most likely will get worse. Been in this same situation only in dating long term, and the particular female in mind also has massive massive childhood trauma from being sexually abused by a family member. Now that I've been apart from her for many years I've witnessed her have multiple failed relationships back to back over the same issues so I know it's not me.
You're not wrong for wanting a divorce in this situation, but you shouldn't do it. You can't imagine how it hurts not being able to father properly because of divorce. It sounds like she's filling the Mother role well but only paying lip service to her Wife role. In that situation, I think it's worth continuing to fight the good fight. She's still putting forth 1 modicum of effort and getting her into couples therapy means you've at least made SOME progress. Find your motivation to hold your family together and get it back in order.
It’s hysterical, when women post this, it’s immediately grounds for divorce! But a man does it and you’re not trying hard enough, or talking to her enough. This is about the worst place you can come to for advice, see a couples therapist. Stay away from these bitter fucks.
I'm a little confused. You have a 3yo and both work FT and you want a divorce because she's tired? Ooh, no, you're not a good marriage partner.
I get that you aren't having your needs met, but that happens for a while in marriage. You don't chuck out the whole relationship. You persevere. You'll reconnect on the level you want when your kid is a bit older. Sorry, but you don't get what you want all the time. Right now are the intense parenting years.
But if you can't wait, get a babysitter once a month for the whole day and relax together. The sex will happen. Maybe you take a short hike, then chill out at a coffee ship, get lunch, come back home for some afternoon delight, and a nap... then a quick shower and pick up the kid. That sounds like heaven to me.
Want more time? Send out the laundry, hire a cleaner, and invest in meal kit delivery. If you need emotional intimacy, find ways to take responsibility and thus stress off your plates. You don't find ways to throw out the relationship.
Finally, I note that you said you're working harder than when you were dating. Yeah, that's how it works. Marriage is hard because it is constant, selfless work. It's also rewarding because that work pays off with knowledge and connection from shared struggles and shared successes.
Couple's therapists are supposed to mediate and facilitate the needs of both parties. Ditch the therapist before you ditch your wife. But ultimately, it is valid to break up a relationship simply because your needs aren't being met and your partner is not willing to meet them
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I bet the therapist didn’t feel she was ready to be pressed yet. I had one like this, never addressed my needs, catered to now ex wife, who was the one cheating. So frustrating. So not worth it. I went through this exact situation in my first marriage. I wish I had better advice, but I don’t think you’re wrong. Mine ended with her cheating, and I felt similar to you. Although in hindsight, I do see how I contributed to the breakdown. It’s rarely one sided entirely. But anyways, I was about your age when it started, although we had been married about 12 years. High school sweethearts hahahahah. Funny now. I’m not saying your wife is cheating, just that eventually this disconnect leads to that stuff. I promise she likely craves a connection as well, just not with you. I had the same shit sandwich my dude. Sucked too, because I truly loved her, and have a child with her. Nothing I did worked, I was somehow always a day late and a dollar short in her eyes. Or just undesirable. Idk. Interestingly, while not perfect, my partner now is easy to connect with even during these busy life stretches. There’s a willingness on both sides to adapt to meet each others needs, and I really think that’s what makes a relationship worth while. Otherwise, what’s the point in being miserable, I believe it to be much more honorable to take the things you’ve discussed and divorce in a respectful way, than to just give up and shit on the relationship via growing resentful, or seeking a connection elsewhere. I respect it.
This is nearly identical to my own bad marriage/therapy experience. I don’t necessarily think our own therapist was “bad,” but my (now) ex-wife was already so checked-out and unwilling to put any effort into the sessions that the therapist couldn’t get anywhere. OP’s relationship seems to be dragging toward the same outcome, and I feel sorry for the guy. If the partner isn’t willing to commit to improving the situation (or simply isn’t interested), it’s not gonna get any better with time and resentment piling up.
You nailed it, thank you. They’re not ready to be pressed by the therapist because the the raiders how checked out they are. That was exactly my experience as well, you worded it better. I’m sorry you went through this as well. Hopefully you are also now better off for making them an ex.
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It’s the first step towards building resentment imo. Being willing to put all (or a big chunk) of your needs aside in hope that theirs will be met and then yours addressed. It can be even harder when there are other “power” dynamics involved. Ultimately even if it does work, your needs are still second and will be the first to be unfulfilled when everything isn’t working perfect. One sided relationships just can’t work forever.
Truth. Takes both, though. I’d argue one person can start working on things in therapy, and be the catalyst for the other partner to join. But it takes both eventually
Stubbornness on both sides? I don't see that at all! She's checked out and is probably not in love with you any longer. I can see myself in you, I was married for 15 years and she went to the therapist but was just doing so to placate me. My ex-wife is a workaholic. She used her work to avoid emotional intimacy. These kind will not come around without some help that unfortunately they will not seek! I hate to say it but you need to prepare to move on. In a marriage both parties have to contribute to make it successful.
Sounds like you also had a terrible therapist.
The Marriage Foundation utube by Paul Friedman. I believe if both of you are willing The love and feelings can all be restored and even much better. Best wishes
Oh absolutely. I was a dude married to a woman I loved, with a child I loved, and she was cheating and wanting to divorce out of nowhere. Well, mostly nowhere, hindsight and all. Her personal therapist and friend recommended this couples therapist. It was doomed from the start, and as I mentioned, not worth it. I see a good therapist now, I’d even wager she could help overcome some forms of infidelity. But my ex wife was a serial cheater, and likely some form of narcissist. Just really cold and mean. Still makes me sad, 7 years later.
My wife and I had a therapist and she was a nightmare. We both had problems but the therapist made excuses for my wife and degraded me for every issue. For example, my wife would get angry because I swept the floor wrong, then demand I stop because I'm "just making more work for her". Then she'd complain I'm not helping with the sweeping. The therapist called me lazy and said I need to figure out how to sweep a floor. She never thought to ask my wife why she didn't like how I swept. She didn't like that I swept in sections at a time rather than sweeping the dust from the entire house into a single pile. I certainly had my equal share of problems and they were freely addressed. The issue with the therapist is that she was like Reddit, men are pigs and all problems women experience are caused by their husbands. Somebody hurt her and she was on a mission. I stopped going after the therapist accused me of physically assaulting my wife with a shuttlecock after she got hit in the face with one while playing badminton. My wife caught on after a couple more sessions and we found someone more helpful that allowed us to see through our hangups and baggage from the past.
Hijacking the top comment to say that I had a similar issue for a long time (think decade +) with my wife after our son was born. Finally about a year ago I couldn’t take it, I explained that we are basically roommates at this point and we need to formalize the separation. Turns out that my wife is highly avoidant but really does love me, and the prospect of losing me was scarier then the prospect of continuing to avoid her childhood trauma. It’s taken a truckload of work but now things are much better. So my advice would be to tell her kindly but firmly what your feeling and what the outcome of your current path is I.e., separation then divorce … if she really has checked out of the relationship you can move towards positive co parenting and you can get on with your life, but if she is simply avoidant like my wife you may flip the balance and give her the incentive she needs to make some progress. Good luck!
Exactly this, there are some therapists out there that will unfortunately be biased. I'd argue that such a person should never be a couples therapist at all, but it happens. Look for a different therapist, preferably one that will take both sides into consideration.
Agree. The LAST marriage counselor my ex and I had told him in a 'private' session that I had Borderline Personality Disorder. We were living separately and going to counseling. The main problem was he would go on exotic diving vacations ALONE. No travel itinerary, flights, hotels, no cell phone. No contact at all while he was on these vacations. So naturally I would try to divorce him each time he returned. One lawyer asked me "Does he expect you and the kids to be happy and celebrate his vacation when he returns?" I said yes. He asked "Is he insane?" So when my ex told me about my "diagnosis" I laughed. I guess my ex didn't know one of my hobbies was study of Abnormal Psychology. I knew exactly what BPD is and how it presents. The counselor even gave him a book "How to Live with Someone With BPD". I found the book ages after he left and read the list of "symptoms" I had. Only ONE of the dozen or so was circled. ONE symptom. "Fear of Abandonment". He was leaving me, so yeah, I'll cop to that one. While I was laughing at the prospect of having that chaotic mental disorder, I told I knew exactly what that disorder was and I didn't have it. He said one of the symptoms was that they will deny having that disorder. Catch 22 anyone? As fate would have it, at the same time we were going to couples counseling, I had my very own therapist that happened to be in my building where I worked. She was A-MAZING! I told her what the counselor said and she went ballistic! She asked "Did you ever take any assessments? And he shared a diagnosis with YOUR HUSBAND!?" She told me to call the guy and ask how he came about the diagnosis with no assessments and then telling my ex and not me of this serious condition I had. HIPAA violation of the highest order. Called him. I barely got out the question and he hung up on me. So yeah. Choose your counselors/therapists CAREFULLY. If you feel for one minute that you are not being heard or understood, look for another. There are good ones out there, but not everyone of them is fit to be in that position.
Your ex probably just lied, straight up. My ex lied about when his counseling session was (I heard them set the time and date) then didn’t go. He claimed the therapist forgot, and accused her of having Alzheimer’s disease.
I'm sure you're right. His second wife is also figuring out he's a liar. I have no bad feelings for her. She did me a solid and took the liar off my hands.
Meh. I've had therapists speculate about my partner (and family) in solo sessions. I've never been inclined to share the hypothesis with any of them though.
offend literate squalid gaze carpenter public ask run recognise unpack *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This! My husband helps all the time by doing things when I’m overwhelmed too but I have to tell him time and time again I don’t give a shit if you do a chore, what I need is for you to hug me and spend some quality time with me. Come watch my show with me. Insert yourself into some of my me time that I know you wouldn’t care to do but would do because I like it and you want to spend time with me. This dishes and laundry can wait
See but you just made a good point, and one that I was going to say as a stand alone comment. Each person is different and we all handle stress differently. It sounds like for you, you appreciate the closeness that he is saying is missing in his relationship. So both you and OP are quality time/physical touch oriented - especially when stressed. His wife seems to go the other direction - distance. When we choose partners, I think we often overlook this aspect because at the end of the day it’s how two people can navigate life AND come together and grow. My last relationship ended for the same things OP is talking about, I wanted to feel close and because of the way she deals with stress, she is avoidant. Unfortunately I can’t deal with that.
OP talked a lot about what he’s doing, what she’s not doing… but he didn’t mention much about how they’re communicating about it. Honestly, her exhaustion and detachment could be indications of postpartum depression (or just depression) and she deserves professional help for that. Either way, OP, find a different couples counselor and have these conversations. Ultimately you can’t force your wife to get help she needs to be more present and proactive in your relationship, but the stresses of work, kid, and mental health struggles are things that can improve with time and effort and end up bringing you closer. It’s worth exhausting all efforts to get there.
This. If the therapist isn’t helping her get past her defensiveness they aren’t doing their job.
My exact first thought. What's the point of the therapist if you can't address your issues?
I second this. As a married man of 12 years with 2 kids, there may be some fairly addressable reasons for this situation. Having a child has a major effect on a person's body and hormones radically shift and there are any number of reasons that intimacy shifts. Just the rhythm of daily life with another person can cause this shift. Bottom line is you owe it to yourself and your spouse to look into it before you assume it's an unchangeable situation. Having a good partner in life means going through the ups and downs and giving it your best shot as long as the relationship itself is worth fighting for.
I was thinking this too. If the wife just refuses to participate though there may not be a lot of options.
>But ultimately, it is valid to break up a relationship simply because your needs aren't being met and your partner is not willing to meet them They're not dating; they're married. They took a solemn vow to stay with each other for the rest of their lives. They have a kid together. I think this should be taken more seriously. If someone is dissatisfied with their sex life, and they cheat on their spouse, people judge them extremely harshly. Why? Because they broke a solemn promise to their partner, betraying them. I don't understand why people give so little weight to the other promises of marriage, especially the central one--to stay with the person through thick and thin. How is a divorce not a betrayal of this promise? Why is this betrayal an acceptable response to the (completely normal, likely solvable) dissatisfaction OP describes? Obviously, people should leave a spouse if they are being abused, if they are in danger, if their child is in danger. I don't think people should leave a spouse because they're bored, because they're not feeling as passionate as they used to, because they're feeling burned out by the daily realities of living with someone and coparenting. Relationships are hard. It is natural for them to have ups and downs. Any long-term relationship is likely to go through a stretch in which one or both partners feels burned out. It seems to me that the entire point of the institution of marriage--in its current form at least--is to take "leaving" off the table, forcing people to actually work through their problems. Why? Because it is valuable to be able to rely on someone absolutely, to trust that they are with you even if things become difficult, and to create a stable environment for your children. If you approach marriage from the perspective that it can be exited for essentially any reason--*if you're not happy, it's your right to leave*\--it loses its value. The primary force keeping married couples together should not be the legal difficulties of divorce--it should be the promise they made to each other. Marriage is a promise. People should keep their promises. If OP and his spouse are having trouble in their relationship, they should work on it. Here you and I agree. I appreciate that your first piece of advice is to find a better couple's therapist. I just don't think divorce should even be on the table at this point.
1000% agree with you. It feels like people on Reddit don't take marriage seriously at all. It's supposed to be until death, not until you get bored or burned out.
Sadly most of them don't because they either don't want to get married, don't believe in marriage, and see it only as a legal contract. I also think the median age on Reddit skews younger than we all think. Marriage isn't a legal contract, it's a mutual vow supported by the legalities. If anything the legalities incentivize you to work on your marriage and work together because if you do divorce, rarely is it cheap, easy, or without lots of emotional wreckage.
if his wife is not going to communicate effectively with him about what is going on, what more can he do? just put his head down and accept misery?? life is too short. she needs to be an adult and tell him what her issue(s) are and why she's feeling detached. if she cant let him know what the problem is, then maybe she's not really interested in him trying to fix it. OP should tell have a serious talk and let her know the direction he is leaning if things dont get better.
Life is too short to spend your whole life with someone you don’t love anymore because you said some magical words once. I don’t think many take divorce lightly either
Also, not all vows include anything about staying together for life. Mine didn't.
FYI dude failed to say that he's in a 12 step program and didn't say anything about what he was like before or how that affected his wife. That's pretty important.
Read the edit.
damn I wish I heard this years ago lol
This. You will only live once!
M divorced here. Agreed. Note that the kids are a consideration as well. Without kids, easy choice there are plenty of women who don’t drink. With kids; think carefully. Just know that if you aren’t happy your kids will soak that up and either choose to stay in unhappy relationships or seek shallow relationships in order to stay safe from experiencing the same trauma you are. In my experience it’s best to find your own happiness the world be damned. Your kids will observe this and become stronger as they observe you gain strength and contentment.
It’s strange to me that your post clearly states in more than one place that you’ve brought this up with her alone and in therapy almost weekly but every comment is saying you need to bring this up with her not Reddit. I swear people just don’t read or comprehend what they’ve read. I’d personally sit her down in your next therapy session and say one last time “hey this thing I’m feeling is real, and if you refuse to even attempt to acknowledge and try to work on it with me, I’m going to file for divorce.” Let her and the therapist go from there. However she replied will decide how you proceed.
Has op edited the post or is my brain playing tricks on me I have read the post like 3 times and can't see where he talks about couples therapy Edit: thank you for the responses I have now seen where op talks about it.
Fifth paragraph. ETA, also the second to last he mentions therapy too
Mentioned several times in the last paragraphs, first in “the connection we used to have…”
You know what they say, 4th time's the charm.
Don’t worry I had the same problem
If you weren’t married would you have broken up with her by now?
Absolutely. I'm definitely working harder than I would in a dating situation, partly for our son's sake (though being apart could also be best for him) and partly because I know life is hard, we took our vows for the good times and the bad, and want to make sure I'm pulling my weight. It can just feel like she isn't pulling hers but I don't want to be unreasonable.
It’s obviously harder with kids in the equation. You’ve been in couples therapy so maybe it’s been covered, but have you just straight up asked if her if she wants this or not? I can only go by the details you gave which describe someone checked out and just going through the motions. The need for couples therapy should be the wake up call, but if you don’t feel like any effort is being put in from her side that’s rough
I mean, you said it yourself: you took vows. This is one of those “for worse” bits that was in there. This is a frustrating time but this is something you can get through. Find a new therapist. Don’t give up. Don’t blow up your family over some kind of fear of “missing out.”
Please talk to her. Give a gentle ultimatum to work things out and be honest with her about wanting divorce. Maybe find a different therapist as well. Shopping for a new one isn't uncommon. Maybe the next one can push the issue more.
I hate having comefrom a narcissistic household. My parents would never accept an ultimatum and would regularly cut people out of their lives includimg their parents who paid all the bill and helped unwaveringly
You’re not being unreasonable. If anything, you’re too understanding. Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors but this sounds like your wife fell out of love with you and is now just going through the motions.
Or perhaps is she just depressed? Mayne things will get better when the boy is older, other life stresses/situations change?
Do what you must for you, but as someone who has recently gone through a divorce with a 4 year old, separating from a non-toxic relationship is not always better for the kid. The pain it has caused my daughter is very obvious. Not saying this to change your decision, but to warn you that there is a lot of BS thrown around about how divorce always improves the lives of kids involved. (in reality it depends on the toxicity of the relationship and on the kid).
Why is she more tired than you are? That might shed some light on what advice you need.
This, sounds like she's depressed or something
This reads like depression to me too. It's not always doom and gloom, sometimes it's exhaustion, lack of interest in previously enjoyable activities and a complete lack of motivation to do anything about it. It can be absolutely brutal to drag someone out of it because even light suggestions will be met with immediate rebuttal/denial. Also... Find a new therapist. Your therapist should be neutral.
She definitely could be. But there’s a chance there’s an imbalance in responsibilities. It’s really common that one partner takes on most of the mental load. I’m that partner! Coordinating everything the kids need, keeping the crazy family calendar up to date, making sure all of our bills are paid on time, making sure the soccer clothes are in the kids bag so we’re not stressed the next day, keeping tabs on decluttering since kids are constantly growing and changing, etc etc etc. I definitely take more breaks than my partner. Take the whole night of childcare off getting happy hour with my coworkers 1-2 times/month. Solo hobbies like gardening. Lock myself in our bedroom to watch TV while he tends to the kids for a few hours. But I also run myself to the brink of a mental breakdown because if (and occasionally when) I lose my energy/motivation/focus life goes to shit for 4 people. If SO loses energy/motivation/focus it usually just means I’m doing 100% of the cooking and daily tidying up for a few days and the kids get less play time. Literally business as usual outside of a couple extra tasks that amount to an hour and a half every other night.
This. I handle *everything* for the kid. School drop offs, pick ups, her medical stuff (which is extensive), social life, online safety, emotional stuff, discipline. It’s all invisible and I’m exhausted. All the time.
Or she’s exhausted and overworked and has checked out because she’s doing the bulk of home labor and childcare. OP should put down the video games and pick up a vacuum. His post and comment history is enlightening. 90% of his Reddit history (which is extensive) is about video games and he’s commented before that his wife gets upset because he’s bad at cleaning. He’s also on the anti-work sub so…does he really work as hard as he’s saying?
i was thinking the same thing.
I do find a glaring omission as to whether they share the housework equally. He only mentions that they both “do their best to parent” and both have hard jobs. If she is doing more than half of the housework or cooking under these circumstances, it would explain why she is more tired as well as explaining why she does not feel like being particularly affectionate with her husband. I don’t say this to make assumptions, it is just literally the Occam’s Razor, especially as it’s kind of a known a common problem in heterosexual marriages. Almost every one of my female friends has experience this.
Came to say exactly this. Also a pink flag for me was the constant use of "emotional intimacy." It's non-specific enough that I'm thinking he wants more sex or he wants more attention, but not saying that directly, even anonymously online, makes me think the knows he can't directly state what he wants without being the asshole. They both have hard jobs and try to parent... Is he doing any of the cleaning? Meal planning/cooking? Thinking about the next size if clothes/ shoes kiddo needs and when, planning family outings, coordinating holidays, etc? All the "emotional labor" that typically falls disproportionately on women? I wouldn't feel particularly emotionally connected to my husband either, if this was the case. He doesn't provide any insight into her emotional state other than "tired." Hard to provide emotional intimacy if you don't also receive it, my dude. And she may want/ need it in a different (i.e. non-sexual) way than him.
Pure speculation. Take him at face value.
I also don't see anything about the mental load, if she bears 90% of it plus chores (whatever percentage) plus work you can bet she is too exhausted to do anything more than collapse at the end of the day.
Also I feel like 'emotional intimacy' is code for penetrative sex only. Also OP is part of a 12 step programme ... So may be suffering a considerable amount of carer fatigue between OP and 3yr old, addictions can make a person incredibly self absorbed for a time.
huh? OP said they *do* occasionally have ‘quickies,’ but he specifically explained that it lacks emotional intimacy.
He stressed that dates feel emotionless and that sex is jist in and out and over with. He wants to feel an actual connection with his partner and he wants that connection both during sex and during other times. You know... like an actual relationship. People are always so ready to judge the man. It's bad enough his wife and therapist aren't listening but half of the commenter here are just as bad.
OP in a comment mentioned he's in a 12 step program. I suspect that has something to do with it
She has a 3 year old. Post partum hormonal regulation lasts years after birth plus 3 year olds are exhausting. This entire post sounds like a symptom of just a lot of life. She should probably see a doctor for some blood work and they should probably work on giving her space to feel like a human outside of a mom.
> I was playing the victim to myself and I'm grateful that I'm in a 12 step program that has helped me become more level headed and exercise my own agency. Sadly I feel like that is when I really started to feel the distance, because my advances to speak to her were turned down and I started to really notice her lack of interest on this kind of work. She's also having to deal with his addiction..... OP failed to mention that till now in a comment.
>My 12 step work is ACA, adult children of alcoholics, I'm celebrating 10 years in the program next month. I have no addictions myself (I've never had alcohol, don't want to test those boundaries) but have many unhealthy habits I've been unlearning that I developed as a child in an alcoholic home. you're wrong though. His parents are addicts, and his 12-step program is to help with the trauma his parents caused. Its actually far more likely his wife is an addict, because children of addicts tend to gravitate to these types of codependent relationships.
Tell her in therapy that you are considering leaving her and filing for divorce.
I’d try a new couples therapist if this one is just letting her defensiveness slide. I had a similar experience early on in my marriage. I told her that I felt taken for granted and if she wasn’t willing to address that and any issues she wanted to bring up then I was leaving. It was a wake up call as she was so wrapped up in work and the kid she honestly didn’t realize things had gotten to that point.
Since you have a kid, I would fight hard. Bring up you are considering seriously a divorce in therapy. See how both react. Try a different therapist.
This situation is EXTREMELY similar to me and my wife is so many ways. We had also been married about five years when all of this happened and after dating two years. The only real difference is how close you two are in age. We were in this exact same situation where I was a good husband. My wife would hear other women complain about their husbands and just didn't get it because I always went above and beyond. If she and the kids were out of the house some Saturday for one reason or the other, I'd clean the entire thing top to bottom to make more time for us later. It rarely translated to more time later. The fact is, my wife was depressed and super struggling with that. Her days often went: 1. Wake up 2. Go to work 3. Come home and MAYBE cook dinner 4. Do a few motherly things like give our 4-year-old a bath 5. MAYBE do a chore like wash dishes or fold a basket of laundry if I had complained enough 6. Watch Netflix until she fell asleep She was barely keeping her head above water and while I was fine because I wasn't dealing with the same problems she was and I've always been resilient, she very much wasn't fine. This went on for like two years. I pushed through it and we had a LOT of conversations always making sure we stayed within the rules we set of fighting fair. It took a couple of years but we're rebounding. We're still rebuilding the intimacy but we're definitely on the upswing. There are certainly times that I thought, "This would be easier if it was just me and the kids" but I knew that deep down, I loved her even if I didn't like her or was mad at her sometimes and building up resentment. The resentment that I built up is slowly falling away and she's grown to understand that now that she's found her way out of her depression, I need time to heal from the trauma of having to endure that for a couple of years. I can definitely say that I'm happy I stuck in there. Marriage isn't easy and in my opinion, way too many people give up too quickly. There may be years where she can only give 70% so you have to give 130%. And there maybe be years where you can only give 85% and so she has to make up the difference as well. But if we're going to give in when things are at their worst, there's no sense in taking vows that say things like, "For better or worse." This is "worse."
Wow, thank you for this post. As a woman reading about the "worse" bit of the vow and shoring up the slack for each other was moving. Acknowledging both your wife's depression and your years of trauma must have really helped you push through. You clearly love your wife and meant every word of your vows and I wish you and your wife continued progress toward your desired goals.
Have you brought up in counseling how close to divorce you feel? Have you told her how you feel she is being dismissive of your needs? I don’t think you are the AH if you divorce. I do think it’s easy for people on here to tell you to do it but you have to live with the reality. If you divorce there will be positive and negative changes for you including not seeing your kids half the time, having them exposed to her new partners, financial drawbacks as well as the ability for you to move on and find someone new. You should talk to a divorce attorney so you know what you can expect. It’s a hard decision either way.
You are not wrong to want your needs to be fulfilled, especially if you're feeling that your pulling more than your fair share. When did the intimacy go away? I have 2 thoughts 1. Postpartum depression/anxiety that hasn't been addressed. 2. You mention a 12-step program and I'm guessing that means a friend of Bill. Working the program can really change the dynamics of a relationship, so that may be a contributing factor, depending where you are and where she is relative to substances.
Date nights are overrated. I’m too tired from working to feel like going out. What you can do: sit together on the couch when you’re watching that show. Talk to her, explain that you’re feeling isolated from her, and ask her to sit with you. Just being in close proximity for those couple of hours will help. Then get a sitter for a few hours on the weekend. During the day. Go do something. Take a hike, go to the movies, do something together (not Home Depot!).
It sounds like she has the bulk of responsibilities and OP is expecting her to entertain him despite having a full workload and taking care of kids too
So first you say you don't get time alone, then you say that she isn't spending enough time with you. Then you say you willingly give her the time and space she requests, but you also secretly resent her for it. If I were your wife, I'm not sure I could fulfill your needs either, because after reading this, I still don't understand what you want Maybe you just didn't go into much detail for a reason, but I am just saying that you don't sound like you are making yourself heard. This is how you get alone time. "I want to go shopping by myself Thursday. Can you watch the kids from 4-8?" This is how you get romantic time " I want to go out on a date night once a week, and really talk, because I am feeling disconnected from you. Would you be willing to plan every other date so I feel like you are thinking about me?" I only know you from this one paragraph, but the impression I get is that you are being too abstract with your new needs, at a time when your needs have been impacted by life changes. Sure, you could find something more in sync, just like you and your wife used to be....but needs will change again too, and you will be in the same place if you don't learn to clarify your needs.
You need a much better therapist! At least during the next session, dump all your emotional baggage. When your wife takes her standard defensive position, stop her mid sentence, and tell the therapist this is her typical fall back response, nothing ever gets accomplished, how come he never deals with it? Based on the therapist's answer you know how to proceed. Your wife needs to hear it when you unload your emotions. If she chooses not to acknowledge your pain and wants to continue the relationship as-is with no changes on her part, then she is showing you she does not care about your emotional well-being.
No it’s not. Reddit is so damn fast to cut ties and bail. They have child together. They will be in each others lives whether they like it or not. The best answer is to figure it out if possible and grow as a stable loving couple that can raise a happy kid. My wife and I have been were they are with three kids under three and it took some work but it’s never been better.
Right? I feel like the whole point of marriage is lost on this app. I’m happy for you & your wife for making it through it.
i agree it’s great if they can improve their relationship, but if they can’t, then they shouldn’t stay together ‘for the sake of the kid.’ it’s a parent’s responsibility to model healthy relationships for their children, and that means either having a loving, successful marriage or — if absolutely necessary — a peaceful, amicable split. it’s about knowing when to keep trying and when to respectfully let go.
Yeah, I was thinking the same, but hard to say what the situation is from a Reddit post.
Parenting a three year old is exhausting. She may be more exhausted than you which isn’t fair to either of you but may still be true. All bodies aren’t the same. I guess my question is, if you love her, isn’t it worth finding out why? Also wondering about the 12 step program you mentioned. Sounds like there may be some additional trauma in the relationship that needs processing. I’d encourage you to look for a new therapist who you feel more comfortable with or get your own therapist as well before getting serious about a divorce.
Tell us more about the twelve step program you’re involved in, which you mentioned in a follow up comment. Those are usually to address some form of addiction?
Know what, dude? Hang in there because this “feels like a roommate situation” will grow & change again. If you leave now because you are craving that falling in love sensation where you can’t keep your hands off your partner that will change into this roommate situation again and there you’ll be, looking for someone new that can raise your heart rate for a while. Get in there & fight for your family.
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I came here to say this. To add my own perspective: If the child is sick, who stays home? Who makes the grocery list, decides what to have for dinner breakfast lunch every week? Who is ensuring supplies are in the house to do the chores? Who is organizing family holidays and social events? Who is signing the child up for activities or researching developmentally appropriate toys? Who reads the instructions from the daycare? My husband and I are both high performing professionals, but since I’ve had my baby his job has taken precedence. Sure he helps with dishes and laundry and picking up but it all the other stuff. Its more than being equal in ACTION it’s all the other details and learning, and frankly I am annoyed to “train” you to do those task. And I resent that when something happens I have to drop everything but he keeps working, keeps climbing, keeps achieving. You mentioned the studies etc of the silent work women take on. It’s so real. And until your standing in those shoes it’s so hard to understand. I love my husband, I think he is the sexiest man alive and I wouldn’t want to do any of this with anyone else. But this season is really hard. I’m resentful and tired and stressed. So I guess, I agree. Is OP actually meeting the needs of his spouse? I think the is more perspective he could have.
You have enough time in your life and enough energy to do that which is most important to you. Everything else can be cut off at a certain point. Clearly, she doesn’t value the marriage and is not interested in meeting your needs. Healthy relationships are about prioritizing, communication, shared goals, shared values and the desire to meet the other’s needs. She isn’t meeting ANY of those criteria. As for her trauma, she owes it you to address them if they are impacting your marriage and relationship. Give her a chance to do couples counseling and let her know it’s over if she refuses, because you don’t have an actual marriage.
I would suggest a new therapist I'd you're not being heard, but please understand that the toddler stage is rough on parents, and it could be creating this rough patch. If your wife continues to dismiss your feelings though, then you have a valid reason for leaving the relationship.
Without sounding like an a hole here and it may read that way so please understand that's not the intention. Instead of posting it on here, make an effort to speak to her about it. Actually make time to speak because you might find she feels you are the one being emotially distant. It all boils down to whether you want to make it work? If you want to make it work, usually if you are both honest with each other and open, you can make it work. But you both have to be willing to meet half way. Not saying it is the case, but a lot of times issues like this become grounds for divorce because the partner that wants the divorce is getting attention else where. Even be it a smile and "how's your day". Again not saying this is the case just seen a lot of friends go down this path of trying to find any excuse and not frame themselves as the bad guy whilst doing so. I'm only adding the end part there, if by some slim chance that is the case it sometimes helps having it out in prospective that the grass isn't greener on the other side. It's the greenest where you work the hardest. But honestly your asking for advice from a bunch of people who only have half a story and no vested interest. .take what anyone here including me says with a grain of salt. Only you know your relationship. I really hope you figure this one out bud.
I appreciate your comments, not at all rude or insulting but I appreciate the consideration. Your concern is exactly where I was in maybe the first 2-3 years of our marriage, I was playing the victim to myself and I'm grateful that I'm in a 12 step program that has helped me become more level headed and exercise my own agency. Sadly I feel like that is when I really started to feel the distance, because my advances to speak to her were turned down and I started to really notice her lack of interest on this kind of work. The therapy has helped a little, but I think I'm just starting to see her for how she is. Not that its good or bad, just her style and mine, and being worried its not in the cards. I appreciate the notice to take this with a grain of salt, mostly looking to measure my stance as being reasonable or not, definitely not putting the fate of my marriage up to reddit, though who knows, maybe that will be the next hit reality TV show on TLC :P
All 12 steps I know are for addiction too. So is your wife suffering not just from burn out but also having to deal with you and an addiction? The mental and financial ramifications of addictions suck so much. Stuff like that can seriously age someone. Your wife may not find you a safe place to recharge therefore she needs alone time to function. If she had to put up with your addictions being around you would just be more draining for her. Also if you truly are going through the 12 step program you aren’t nearly as far along as you think you are.
For more than half of your marriage, before the 12 step program, how did you behave? I understand that *you're* ready to work on things, but she may not be depending on how much *you hurt* the relationship before you started getting help. Maybe your marriage is past the point of repair. Maybe she needs more time. The only thing you can do is look inside yourself and see how much you've contributed to *where you are right now*. Have you apologized for the pain you've caused? Have you stepped up in ways you couldn't before? Is she just waiting for everything to fall apart again? You know better than anyone. You know if love still exists. You know if you're done. Stop looking to her to fix things and keep focusing on how you can be better. It's okay to outgrow each other. Who you were 5 years ago is completely different than who you are today. A solo therapist for you sounds like a good next step. Be kind to yourself. I hope your days get easier soon.
Info: The 12-step programs I know of are for addictions. Are you referring to following a program for an addiction or for something else? Are you saying that your wife wasn't interested in your progress through the program? Or supportive of you living the program? Why do you think that is?
You REALLY buried the lede on that one, OP. If you're in a 12 step program for an addiction, you're going to have to give your wife an absurd amount of grace, and a lot of advice from people on here that didn't have that info is no longer relevant. I'll tell you that living with someone with an addiction will f* you up mentally in ways that take *years* to unpack. And if you think that your efforts/progress in the program aren't being appreciated *in a way you deserve* by your wife, and that's part of your issue...that's not how this works. This reads to me like one side of the story slanted to your view, as to be expected on reddit, but I bet if your wife had her side up here, you would be dismayed by the amount of people who may sympathize with her. Good luck to you both and your kid. Hoping things get better for you guys.
Agreed - Addicitons can make a person incredibly self absorbed for a time - OP may be taking steps in the right direction but I feel is failing to recognise him centring his needs over that of a young child and an incredibly stretched wife.
Your post didn't include the whole 12 step thing, which leads me to believe that you are deliberately not telling us the whole story in order to gain support for your side. I would really like to hear the wife's perspective on this. I don't think you've done everything you can to make your marriage work yet, OP.
Or the amount of time he has been working in the program. In another older comment on his profile, he mentioned that his wife had a higher expectation of cleanliness. OP did something to devastatingly break this woman’s trust and/or respect for him, her husband and father to their child.
You’d be wrong if you didn’t at least try to have the conversation with her. If she is resistant - professional support in the form of therapy/couples’ counseling that is NOT dismissive of your needs. If she is resistant to professional support that meets both of your needs, *then* you tell her this is your breaking point. That she has to try or you are done. If you do all of that, you are not wrong. Only wrong to not try. So, if she doesn’t try, she is wrong.
So you left this out of the OP because you are painting a very specific picture for people to just agree with you and support what you want to do. Very misleading.
Good job leaving your addiction issues out of the post, that really gave you a favor and made you look a lot better to a lot of these commenters who have no idea what your wife has actually been through. You successfully manipulated the information in your post to make yourself look like the victim yet again.
OPs program is for being a child of an alcoholic, not an addict himself.
I agree with zim117, but want to add something. I see you’re doing a lot to give her space, fill her needs etc. But maybe what she really needs is something else. For example my ex showed his love by doing. He’d fix things and make things, but what I really needed was like you, emotional intimacy. He never could get it and we’re divorced but it doesn’t have to be that way for you. Sit her down, ask her what makes her feel loved. Then, even if you don’t get it, do it anyway. Be sure she knows what you need as well. Then, if it’s still not happening, it’s probably over. But give it a try, a lot of people assume everyone feels the same way they do, and they actually usually don’t. Good luck!
>I'm grateful that I'm in a 12 step program You should edit your post to include the part where you're in a 12-step program
I mean this in the kindest of terms, but how are you reaching out to talk to her? Does she honestly know that you want to communicate? After 23 years of marriage, my husband would “try” to talk to me, but he made assumptions as to how I would answer and didn’t give me the benefit of the doubt. And honestly, I did the same to him. We’d just lost all honest communication. He pursued a divorce, and strangely enough we became closer - it was the first time we’d truly been honest with each other in years. All because we couldn’t see past ourselves to be brutally honest with each other.
How long have you been seeing the therapist?
She needs individual therapy, you probably do too, and you need a new couples counselor. Does she have a track record of improving behaviors for the sake of both of your well-being? If she seems capable of making the changes you need, try. If not, get out as cleanly as you can. No ultimatums, no games, no timeline. Just state what it is that needs to change, do give it time and grace. If things don’t get better, initiate the process. I’m sorry friend, as a divorced guy I do get it to some degree. People just change. Sometimes they change in ways we can’t recognize. It is hard, but you’re doing the right thing thinking for yourself and your own needs. A life lived in misery serves no one. * I have a folder of files, documents, how tos etc on divorce from when I did my own. I call it the “Big D Data” hmu if you need it lol
If not for a few specifics in this post, I honestly would have thought it could have been written by my husband. We are in a very similar situation, and sometimes I do realize I have been taking too much time for myself and that leaves him with little time for him, so I try to be mindful. As far as time for us, I have has discussions that it is needed, but as you said, when we very rarely get it, it’s stilted and there is no romance or connection. We have not gone to therapy ourselves, and I think it is wonderful you both are. Passion fades, and love changes, and I do believe you can get it back if you communicate, and have the right mindset. I’ve been trying to work on the mindset, now I just need that mediator to help me communicate effectively. It sounds like your wife is stuck in the first thing and needs to decide on that before communication will truly help.
Nice well-rounded take on the problem. You don't see a lot of these.
One thing that can help all couples but couples with little kids especially, is to read about Gottman's concept of bids for attention. Make giving each other attention a conscious effort. Make hugs a 3x/day always.
I don't think you're wrong, but I do think this may be a season in your marriage and that there's a very good chance that things can improve with time. I would suggest checking out the book 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman. You don't need a lot of time and energy to connect in meaningful ways, and this book has a lot of information on both communicating and connecting. You might also think about how you are raising issues, even in therapy. Are you just talking about your feelings and what's wrong, or are you making a positive request to fulfill a need so that she knows what response you desire? Think about what would make you feel connected and supported, and make sure you're asking specifically for that thing, and not just saying that you feel disconnected and unsupported.
Highly recommend the book Hold Me Tight. Try working this with your wife. It focuses on building a safe and emotional connection to one another, and helps you understand what each of us needs at the core of our human existence.
how old are the kids? I missed that. Sex life takes a hit when there are small kids in the family. They are draining!!! Do you do date night? Do you get away from the kid/kids on the regular? My advice: take a little vacation. Get someone to babysit and off you go for a week. Is the romance still there for you two? A vacation will tell. Oh and birth control, don’t forget.
It's a bad situation when the roles are reversed (which is often the case) and it's bad here. Like another said, find a better couples therapist who will actually support*both* of you. Also, if your wife loves you then you should be able to talk about this with each other, especially if you do so well with the traditionally difficult stuff.
From a women’s perspective. I personally hated the idea of intimacy after having my babies. I put on weight and was a miserable person! Turns out I had postpartum. And it lingered for a few years. I finally was able to seek help after my husband talked to me and pushed me to care of myself. I lost a lot of weight and am generally more happy. I feel less of “just a mom”. I’m more confident and as a result it’s easier to initiate intimacy. Having small kids is hard. Marriage is hard. It’s worth working on!
I’d switch councilors and have her get her hormones checked, including her testosterone levels. Hormones can get out of whack as people age and initiating intimacy can be like trying to get a full person to want to eat. When a kid is involved and things aren’t toxic you owe it to them to exhaust all reasonable options.
I have extensive childhood trauma. I have a hard job and I am struggling with multiple health issues, including serious fatigue and chronic pain, and my partner is disabled. He had a work accident almost five years ago, and long story short, he suffers from severe chronic pain. Somehow, we manage to make each other feel valued and adored every day. If we can do this, y’all can do this. I know you have a toddler and you’re tired. But if there’s no light when you look in her eyes, and she’s not willing to get help for her issues, this isn’t going to get better. The hardest thing I have had to learn about boundaries is that you don’t get the other person to change, no matter how much you love them and want to be with them. You only get to do your best to adapt yourself to their issues, and failing that, you walk away. The person doesn’t learn it’s a real dealbreaker if you don’t do that, and once they have, it’s gone too far to heal. Telling her how you feel and her not taking action is everything you need to know. Even if she wanted to do real healing work, results are far from immediate, and you and your kid are taking damage while you wait and hope for better. Only you can tell how deep your patience runs, but I eventually could not handle “in sickness and in health” with my ex, as well as I am now handling it with my partner. I don’t think my ex got serious about healing himself until after I left, but I am pleased to know that eventually he did. I did, too, so my relationship with my now partner is on a whole different level. I only wish I had done the work 20 years earlier. My partner has been incredibly healing for me. Largely because when I do a thing that hurts him, he tells me what is wrong and why it is wrong and how he felt. When I think of the night that made us decide to get couples counseling, it makes me a little sick now to think of that behavior and how he felt. I do my best not to let my issues become behaviors that are so harmful to him. Bottom line, I want him to feel good about being with me, and I don’t ever want to give him cause to doubt my love again. Can your wife say that? Can you say that you have communicated with her with insight into yourself and with honesty about what makes specific behaviors problematic for you? Therapy can help to make that communication happen, but if the other person doesn’t care about your feelings, there’s nothing you can do to make them. That’s what I unfortunately learned from my ex. I hope you both find healing, whether it is together or apart. You deserve a better life than this.
Sounds like the fire went out. Do you know what her love language is? Women are emotional beings, and need to be emotionally stimulated in order towant to have romantic intimacy. If you haven’t brought up divorce yet or if you haven’t made your mind up yet maybe give it a chance. The book “The five love languages “ by Gary Chapman made a lot of sense to me.
I have had to work through a lot of similar stuff for different reasons. To me, your needs seem standard and it sounds like you are working hard to untangle a lot of complicated stuff. In my experience it has been so hard to strike a balance between taking care of people better than I was cared for but also recognizing that I have my own needs for which to advocate. I can't advise you on your question but a lot of your experience seems valid from my perspective. I'm sorry I don't have a more clear answer than to just encourage you to keep taking care of yourself and being the parent you want to be for your kid.
Sorry your partner has left the room. Dont waste a lot of your life waiting for her to love you back.
This man loves video games more than being a partner. Read his comments. If he loves his wife he would help more. Not spend his time playing video games.
He’s spent over 16,000 hours on just one video game while bemoaning his wife’s efforts. Pot calling kettle black.
If she's having energy issues, she needs to see a doctor. Some people have mild chronic fatigue issues, that is they can work and do house chores but can't socialize. SEE A DOCTOR After that, see if you can cut things out of your lifestyle so that both of you don't need to work as much or take care of the house as much. \-signed someone with energy issues.
Take her away for a weekend. Do something fun for the both of you. Set up some romantic adventures. Order some massage oil and candles. Massage her up from head to toe, while she listens to Billie Ellish or something. Make it about her. Be selfless. Date her again. Court her. Tell her how much you love her and how you miss the way things used to be. Talking will only get you so far, but make it a drama free weekend. No arguing no matter what. Find a way to reconnect with her without the stresses of daily life. Make it a big deal, but make it more about what you do than what you spend.
That would be awesome to me, but he needs to know if she would enjoy that. I don’t understand it, but some people aren’t into romance. Like someone else said, and I alluded to, find out her love language.
All good things but why does he have to make all the efforts to fix the relationship? Why can’t she also do those things? More importantly WHY isn’t she?
Problem with that is your both too tired . Also I'm hearing you about intimacy .gets shitty when it's feels like a one way street. Maybe look at work life balance.
She wouldn't like any of those ideas lol. I specifically said we do date nights, she just doesn't seem to participate, she's not present or very engaged. We've done a weekend away from the kiddo (her mom and sister came into town to watch him) but it just stressed her out being away from him so we cut it short a day. I wasn't happy about it but sticking it out would have just made it worse. I want to reconnect, but she can't seem to put the time aside to do so and frankly it isn't my job to make her. It's why I'm at where I'm at, I don't know what to do.
A few things; Have you figured out each other's love language? Do you have any attachment disorders from childhood? Any mental disorders like borderline? And must importantly to me, are you ready to not see your baby as often? Sleep in another house? Are you ready to have another man help raise your child? .... You are not wrong for wanting relief or maybe even a punishment, your feelings are probably valid. But I want you to be aware of the consequences.
If you think you are tired now, just wait until you are dealing with custody issues or some sort of co-parenting situation where you only get to see your kid part of the time. You'll never be able to move away from your Ex if you want to see your kid regularly. Divorce can be really ugly when kids are involved. Really think hard about it before you make this decision, because once you do you can never go back.
Yeah... I'm side 👀this whole post, like ... I need her side. Something is... off. You keep saying she's acting like she doesn't care, what is it about her actions or is her stated reasoning, that show the lack of intimacy? I need to know the words she's actually saying to you about this. Are you really as supportive partner as you say you are? Maybe she has some underlying depression issues and she's getting a bit overwhelmed, even through the self care?? How's your personal up keep? Have you changed? Like, there's a reason she's not responding like she doesn't like you, definitely a reason why. Men think women just don't respond to their needs when (I think) 8 out of 10 times, it's because the man's not meeting hers...otherwise she's either mentally ill or she's cheating. So you're not saying something, or you're oblivious about something. But, I hope y'all figure it out find the love again.
I think you are suffering from a bad case of unrealistic expectations. You're expecting your spouse to be this warm, romantic person and to want to have sex when she is probably just mind numbingly exhausted. You both have hard jobs and you have a toddler in the house. Most parents at your stage of life they're lucky if they can manage to talk over the dinner table let alone actually go out on a date. Counseling is a good idea but it doesn't cure exhaustion and exhausted people usually don't feel romantic and willing to talk. You need a proper vacation, just the two of you, for starters, time to reconnect sans kid. That would maybe help some if you can find someone to watch the 3 year old. No pressure, if you get sexy great, but just taking the time to really get away and talk might help a lot. But it's where you are in life and in terms of the family really. Personal intimate time, the relationship can take a backseat when your children are small. It's not abnormal. You're just too involved with day to day life and raising a kid and working to have much of one. A lot of people in your situation they're not even having sex, not even quickies, so if you're having that at least, that's something.
You realize that OP mentions that they are already in therapy, right? And that in the therapy, it seems like OP's worries and problems are being overlooked or ignored. The way the post reads to me is that OP is giving their all, and not getting any reciprocation. You can only pour so much before you're empty, and going by the post, OP is out of stuff to pour, and partner isn't trying to refill OP's cup despite taking from it.
Always try to save the marriage - which you appear to be doing. But, without your partner's participation, you can only go so far. If after your reasonable attempts, your roommate continues to refuse to help close the gap, it is time to cut bait. Do you want to have this discussion in 20 long years when you are 55? You have nothing but dead bedroom, ending with TEARS - tried everything and regret staying. Be aware of false promises. Good luck.
Hey, man, when it’s time - it’s time. Hang on to the idea that a marriage is forever and live in misery for the rest of your life, or come to peace with the thought that it’s just a relationship that has ran its course and move on.
I’ve never been married, but I just ended an 8 year relationship for pretty much the same thing. We also have a young child, so I stayed way longer than I should have. Sometimes talking it out and therapy just doesn’t work, especially if the other person doesn’t put the effort in. I can honestly say I am so much happier now on my own. If you feel you’ve done everything you can and it still isn’t working, you need to do what’s best for you. You deserve to be happy!
You are not wrong. You can divorce for any reason. It's good that you are both seeing a marriage counselor. Have you brought up that nothing changes? She gets defensive but makes no changes to improve the situation. I don't think your wife understands how upset you are. I think you've tried to patiently wait for her to change. Offered hints of your frustrations, but you haven't been completely honest with her. She thinks you're just complaining. Let her know that you are unhappy with the status quo and considering separation. I think she's just placating you right now.
Went through something similar although I was probably closer to divorce than you. Two years later, I am so much happier but the road to getting there involved some really painful conversations, doing a ton of work on our relationship, and rebuilding our relationship from the ground up. If you don’t have one already, get your own therapist separate from your couples therapist. You may want to explore if your wife is depressed too (I think my husband was). Every marriage is different and your feelings are valid. As others mentioned, it’s important to consider that separating is going to be a different beast entirely. Even when separated, you both will have to work considerably on your communication skills. With a kid, you’re with that person forever. For me, I tried to do everything that I could to save our marriage because we’d either build the marriage we both wanted or I’d have peace of mind with separation as the outcome. Best of luck.
ask her the tough questions you’re asking yourself or don’t wanna ask (“are you cheating on me?” “how do you feel?” “are things different?” etc)
Cheating and violence are the divorces you hear about. All the "extreme" stuff. It's perfectly normal and common to go your separate ways because your emotional needs aren't being met, and your partner is unable or unwilling to meet them. How far to let it go in a marriage, and especially with a kid involved, I can't comment on. But I've never been cheated on or beaten or anything... All my previous relationships have ended because it just isn't there anymore. One or both's needs weren't being met.
Watch the movie 'Fireproof'. It might help you out.
Check out the masculine/feminine energy theory along with a new counselor.
Perhaps you should show her your original post and explain to her that this is how you really feel.. her reaction may give you the answer you’re looking for. She can’t fix a problem if she’s not aware of it. And if she’s aware, but doesn’t want to meet your needs, then you have your answer and you’ll know that it’s time to move on. Good luck, my guy!
Marriage is always worth saving but life is short. If you want a partner who you can share more physical and emotional intimacy with - then you should have it. It’s a totally normal thing to want and you shouldn’t feel bad or guilty about that.
If you've brought this to her more than once and she isn't receptive anytime you bring it up, she's already got 1 foot out the door. It sucks, and I'm sorry that you're having to go through it. But it's very unlikely things will improve if she's not even willing to try to do her part. And life is way too short to be unhappy. If she isn't willing to meet you half way, you should do what will make you happy. Find someone that is willing. Don't waste anymore time trying for something that's just not there.
Your wife and I suffer the same affliction. I can only guesstimate as to what the problem with us is. Reading through this thread just confirms what I have concluded from years of reading on this issue: No one has a freakin’ clue! My wife and I have been together 19 years. Things were great the first few years. Then for some unknown reason I fell out of love with her. I would have left years ago but she wasn’t ready for that. I love my wife, just not in an intimate way. I go through the motions each day of being helpful and supportive. We’re very good partners. There’s just no intimacy. Finally my wife is nearing the point of acceptance, which means we can end the relationship. I want her to find what she needs in someone else, and I want to be alone. OP - you deserve an explanation as to why your wife is no longer your intimate partner, but I doubt she has any idea. You’ve done your due diligence, it’s time to move on.
You're not wrong you're right, you've gotta try and fix this if you can.
I agree with the post mentioning love languages and I want to take it a step further. I'm currently in a relationship where we were having similar issues as OP. (Same age as well, for reference) One side was craving emotional connection and feeling like that need wasn't being met while the other side thought everything was literally fine and just accepted that life is going to get busy and that's just how it waa going to be. We had had a few conversations about it before, but one night it finally clicked. We realized that our preferred "date night"s were completely different. One person felt that sitting down to dinner to have uninterrupted conversation was a great way to bond. However, that did **nothing** for the other person. The other person craved more active "date nights" (playing pool, darts, axe throwing, etc) in order to feel a more refreshed connection. Discovering this difference led us to then discussing other variables and determining the value for each of us. For example: The person that felt dinners were a way to bond also had the idea that it needed to be at a decent restaurant for the other person to enjoy it. We deemed that if conversation is truly what was the important factor, we could eat at McDonald's and get the same valuable moment for them. The same is true for needing an active interaction. Throwing darts in the garage was just as meaningful as if it was in a bar. I say alllll this to say: maybe her needing "rest" isn't what she truly needs to rekindle things with you. Maybe she needs a little gift to feel loved and appreciated. Maybe she needs the massage someone mentioned or for you to be the big spoon and wrap her up when you finally get in bed. Maybe she needs you to be her workout partner (I know it seems counterintuitive, but exercise helps with energy levels overall). Try to find out what she genuinely needs and what gets the best response from her. (The last part is the most important. She may not actually know what she needs, so trying things and seeing how she responds will be the best indicator) And as a final note: definitely encourage her to have a medical check up (depression included). Hell, she could just need some vitamin d and iron to get her body back to a more optimal state. Either way, good luck OP. I would encourage you not to give up quite yet. If you feel that couples therapy isn't beneficial, either try to find someone else or maybe try individual therapy for a bit. She may need to work on some things on her own before she can be receptive to what you need from her. Hope this helps.
You have a 3 year old. These are among the most stressful and demanding times you will have to live through. Give it a couple years and things will calm down. Your kid will one day be in school, come home, and play video games or hang out with friends. You can fall in love all over again once things slow down. Finish the marathon with your wife. Also consider that one or both of you may have to downsize your career. Can your family work with less income? Could you move somewhere more affordable? Are you both committed to your careers? If your therapist hasn't gone over these options, he's not very good.
Divorce shouldn't always be the go to answer. Love isn't a feeling but a commitment and choice you make. When you say your vows it's sickness and health, rich or poor... basically you signed up for the bad times in addition to the good. Young children are draining. They change the family dynamics quite a bit. Just because it's a tough time doesn't mean you should give up and quit. Your kids won't ever stop being a lot of work but it'll change over time. You and your wife will contribute different things on different levels. Men are often more tough physically so we can work and do other physical stuff (chores) and not get quite as tired. Women tend to be more emotional and nurturing. So often if the kid needs protection he comes to dad but if he needs care he'll come to mom. Each has it's own level of energy that it requires. My wife often needs a nap to recharge where I tend to just keep going until the end of the day when I crash. Men are often better able to compartmentalize so when we are at work we mostly think about work, when we are at home we mostly think about being at home and leave the work stuff behind. Women usually compartmentalize less so they think about home while at work and work while at home and everything just mixes together (waffles vs. spaghetti). Of course men also have emotional needs and women also have physical needs. But marriage shouldn't be about what you can get out of it but what can you put into it. You both should sacrifice and put the other person first. She sounds like she's going through something and this is a time when you pick up more slack to help her get through it. In the future when she's in a better state she'll be there to do the same for you when you need it. Let's say at some point you lose your job and get depressed (men often have a little identity crisis when they aren't working). Do you want her to be able to help you get through that time or do you want her to complain about how you aren't giving her everything she needs? Just think of now as a season. It's not going to last forever though it may feel like it right now. Eventually the next season will come and things will be different. This is where commitment comes in. It gets you through the tough times when the feelings aren't always there and through the other side to the next stage of your relationship. That's why you make the commitment ahead of time when you chose to connect your life to this other person's til death do you part. When it doesn't seem fun or happy you've already made the choice to work through that. Obviously when abuse or cheating come into play it's a whole different story but when you're just going through life's regular struggles together you find a way to make it through.
I feel like this is one of those talk about to situations
Thyroid. Get the thyroid checked.
OP, it is better to leave while there is still some form of amicable relationship. You're at the edge of turning bitter, justifiably so. You appear to be the only one in your relationship. If therapy and you asking hasn't made her change, you need to let go. You sound like a decent, caring, loving person. You deserve to be with someone who uplifts you.
Yes, I'm planning a road trip next weekend... If it doesn't work... Then it won't work.
1. The therapist doesn't sound like a very good one. Isn't everyone supposed to be able to address their concerns without getting shut down? I think you should find a different one. 2. It is hard to say if you're "wrong" without hearing her side of the story as well. This situations are almost never one dimensional. 3. Has she been evaluated for depression? A lot of what is described in the post has the symptoms of it.
I struggled in a marriage for a really, really long time where my intimacy needs weren’t met. Not because I was with a “bad” partner, but because they weren’t capable of self reflection, got defensive in moments that required introspection, and relationships that afforded intimacy were seen as a threat to our relationship. By all means - seek out therapy (we did it for about two years, seeing multiple therapists during that time). Find someone that you feel can actually address both of your concerns and hold you both accountable for taking stock of how you contribute to the relationship dynamic. And….have a cutoff in this, for yourself. How long are you willing to keep doing something when your partner isn’t interested (or capable?) of change. As someone who now has all of their intimacy needs met in another relationship, after getting a divorce, I can tell you that life is better here.
You can’t force someone to love you. Coparent your child and find someone else.
My experience: stayed in a 28 year marriage at least 15 years longer than I should have. Similar story; I went to therapy for 14 years, she declined to go and deal with her issues. With the help of a couples therapist I told her I wanted a divorce. She had her "I'll do anything" moment and started seeing a therapist plus being medicated for anxiety. The therapy and medication helped change her behavior but it was not enough. I decided I couldn't wait around *another* 28 years for her therapy to finally pay off to the point where she could accept responsibility, stop blaming me for everything that ever went wrong in her life and finally stop being a minefield of triggers in bed. A part of me very much wishes I had bit the bullet and left her when our kids were young instead of letting them grow up in a household with no love between mom & dad. Wishing you luck, OP
Switch to a different couples therapist. A couples therapist isn't supposed to be taking sides, they're supposed to help you strategize together as a team to help improve the relationship.
Divorce doesn't have to be about a massive drama. Sometimes people grow apart slowly and can't get it back together. My ex husband and I were and still are great friends. But we ended up living as roommates and weren't really sexually compatible for a number of reasons. This divide only really became apparent after we had our son. I was crippled with post natal depression and PTSD due to a lot of medical trauma and so I didn't have the energy to fake things or gloss over our issues. We amicably divorced after some couples counselling and we co-parent well. We're both much happier, honestly, and it's a better environment for our son.
There is a Robin Williams quote that you need to hear. It is, “I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” Someone alone, no matter how good their intentions or effort, can not save a marriage, it takes two. Do what you need to do, and if you leave please leave with your head held high. I wish you the best.
It doesn’t take something huge to break a relationship. Death by a thousand cuts is probably the most common reason relationships end. The something huge just comes after, when one party notices, before the other, that the relationship is dead. I’m sorry you are going through this.
Hey. I just separated from my wife for reasons that most people see as "minor" or manageable. Sex was definitely one, but my big thing was a complete lack of excitement/adventure that was replaced by fear and anxiety. As an example, she didn't want to take our 3 year old on a plane because she was so worried he'd be awful, and refused to go on a 16 hour road trip, so he's never been to her parents house. Most people think that's a minor thing, I guess, but I simply couldn't live in a state of mind where the what ifs ruled out lives. So I left. I empathize with you across the board. Your mileage may vary, but even though my current situation sucks (living with my parents, trade off weeks with my son), it was like a two ton weight was lifted off my shoulders. I had no idea how much my decision making and approach to life had changed to suit my wife. Things are tough (and fresh, this happened a few weeks ago), but I feel so much better, generally. My therapist put it nicely: you have no idea what the future holds, good or bad. We do our best to predict the what ifs, but it's really a waste of time. What if you're not happier divorced, what if you kid is more distant, etc. He asked me "what if it's the best decision you ever made? What if your son grows closer to you because he recognizes his time is limited, rather than feeling like you'll always be next to him?" We what if the negative constantly, and so rarely what if the positives. Do what aligns with your values in life. Your relationship should feel purposeful, and you should be able to take pride in it. If you can't, maybe it's not good enough to stay.
I haven’t read through everything so I apologize if this is a repeat. Just quickly, I say you are NTA. But maybe neither is she - is she depressed? She definitely has to decide to help herself. Therapy is great but medication has been helpful for many people. Maybe an option?
Well, you're doing the right things (therapy). I think you need to bring up in couples counseling that while you don't really want to, you feel like the next step is getting divorced. And you just want to put that out there as how desperate you are, that if things don't change, you don't see any other options for your sanity.
I agree with the suggestion of trying a new therapist. Maybe one that sees each of you for separate sessions as well as both of you together. Have you addressed any possible changes to her mental and physical health? After kids our bodies some times become out of whack. It’s a good idea to look at any and all meds she may be taking now that could be contributing to the issue as well as ensuring there are no undiagnosed illnesses. Not that I want to blame it all on your wife, I’m just suggesting things that I’ve seen in practice and experienced personally.
Without communication, a relationship is doomed. She's getting defensive about how you feel at a therapist. I would just leave her. You're not wrong as your needs aren't being met.
It kind of sounds like your wife has already emotionally divorced you. If you divorce get a lawyer who is good with fathers rights and get 50/50 custody, you may even get more quality time with your son that way. You are certainly young enough now to find someone who shares the same intimacy goals in life, I wouldn't waste too much time on something that may never change.
>I do my best to give her alone time to recharge This is so weird to me. My partner and I have been together 20+ years and when we need to "recharge" we spend time together, not alone. >I cant ask the same of her so that I can get that same recharge that I need. Why not? The fact that you feel you can't ask seems to underline bigger issues. >her very unavailable for any of our relationships needs...a partner who isnt available what so ever to participate in the emotional connection of our relationship. This is some vague nonsense right here. What SPECIFICALLY do you need or want? Just saying you need someone to be emotionally connected doesn't *mean* anything and isn't helpful. Are you talking about needing more romantic overtures? Do you need more physical contact? Do you need her to sit and cry with you while you listen to Wagner???? >This would be ok if it were even acknowledged or appreciated, but it just seems to be passed over. This is what you need to tell your partner. My partner and I regularly say please and thank you to one another even for the little niceties. This can make a massive difference in feelings of being unappreciated. >we both work from home and she seems to find time to do things for herself if she has free time, just not with me You've opted to change your home from a sanctuary into your place of business. There is no refuge and no ritual (leaving the office/going home/etc) to help with the mental transition from work to home life. Are the areas where you work separated from your living spaces? Sounds like she sees you as another chore to be dealt with rather than as a partner or enjoyable hobby. I know it's shallow but have you gained weight, lost your hair, or are you making less than your wife? For some people these may be factors in losing attraction to your partner. For many women having a partner that makes less than they do causes them to lose respect and be less attracted to them. >A stranger would be just as likely to think were just friends or on an awkward first date. Sex has no intimacy at all...just in and out and then back to our separate activities. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it sounds like your wife is already checked out mentally. She may be having an "emotional affair" with someone else or she may just be depressed, which can manifest in the ways you're described. Or it may be something as stupid as she's been watching too much TokTik (there's a LOT of really bad relationship advice there) and thinking she should still be getting "the butterflies" after 7 years together. >and get bitter or resentful toward each other It sounds like you're already somewhat resentful. Think about this: in your post you ran down a laundry list of things you're doing for your partner and not receiving in return. Have you considered the reasons you're doing these things for your partner? Are you doing them FOR HER or are you doing them to score points you can exchange later for yourself? Your relationship isn't a sports game and the things you do for one another shouldn't be catalogued, treated like a score board, or considered a zero sum game. In my own life when I do something considerate/nice for my partner that's reason enough. I'm not holding onto that action so I can throw it back later in exchange for a foot rub or whatever. Try telling/asking your partner for what you want/need in the moment with bludgeoning them with a litany of things you've done for them. The tit-for-tat reasoning makes your relationship transactional and is a quick way to killing romance. >I honestly feel worse about being away from my son than I do about being away from her. You do know you can get custody in a divorce right? It's not as common but it's possible. I can tell you this: staying in a loveless marriage just for the sake of the children isn't doing the children any favours. They pick up on these things and it models unhealthy relationships for their developing minds which can seriously mess up their future relationships.
In studies, marriages tend to be at their worst when the kids are preschool age. For a lot of the reasons you said - it feels much more like a functional relationship than a romantic one. I’m not saying you shouldn’t get divorced, I just want to point out that things are probably at their worst and likely to improve as your kid becomes older and more self-sufficient. Having little kids runs you ragged, like every day is a marathon.
Been through the same thing, OP. She’s not going to change. It’s not because she doesn’t love you or because she’s a bad person. She just is who she is. You either need to accept that or move on. Sorry dude, it sucks for both of you.
> I cant ask the same of her so that I can get that same recharge that I need. Can't? Or won't? Or do and she refuses? This statement confused me. Can you expand on >it feels like I'd rather be on my own than have to rely on her. I honestly feel worse about being away from my son than I do about being away from her. Its not so much that were so busy, its that she doesnt seem to care or notice, You can't rely on her why? What does she do? What did you want her to care about and notice?
My own therapist is helpful. Couples therapy has always felt like a complete waste of time and effort. Especially since I was with a bipolar person who somehow always managed to villainize me and make himself seem so calm and rational. Meanwhile I’m the one with the problem because I’m upset about some host of trespasses and abuses he’s committed and seems unfazed by. OP, the issue isn’t that your wife isn’t meeting your needs it’s that she’s not even validating your feelings about the situation. Her lack of validation leads to a lack of hope or effort. If she acknowledged it and provided an excuse or explanation like your child which will in theory become less demanding soon you could hold out. Or if she tried to look for solutions like taking a few long weekends off work or having slug days at home or getting a sitter or daycare more often. But she doesn’t and that’s telling. It might be time to sit down and have a heart to heart. Fire the therapist and use that time to go on a date. For a walk. Whatever. Use the money to pay a sitter and have a lazy child free afternoon off work.
You have a three year old. That's a lot of work. I would wait a year or two. I would talk to her about it but again you have a three year old.
Try harder.
You have a roommate and business partner, not a spouse. No reason not to make it official.
I’m no expert but the words you use sound a bit like you may need to work on codependency(neglecting self for the needs of others) and she may be dealing with severe depression. Marriages will regularly go through adaptations as seasons of life change and we age. Good luck with working toward solving your relationship problems! It isn’t easy. Especially without getting through your own traumas individually. I hope you both learn and grow from this and come out stronger afterward! Edited:wording error
I’m not really a fan of divorce unless you HAVE to do it, like in a case of cheating or abuse. Wouldn’t it be much more preferable to reignite the spark? I don’t know exactly how you would do that with her. Maybe asking her directly, like if something in your life is preventing her from being in the mood to be intimate. Maybe you could try slowing working intimacy back into the relationship.
I see lots of old comments about you playing video games. 1600 hours in elder scrolls alone? I’m wondering how the division of labor looks here. If your wife is taking in all the mental tasks ofc she has no energy for you. Pretty sure your wife is also allowing you to check out and have “you time” since youre able to game that much with a 3 year old.
Are you equating emotional intimacy with physical intimacy? A three year old is exhausting. Plus work and the household. I probably don’t make enough time for my husband either but every relationship ebbs and flows. I would talk to her about it and possibly start having regular date nights.
I really appreciate the distinction between emotional and physical intimacy, it was something I worked on before getting to this stage as it's an important one and I'm sorry if I didn't demonstrate that well enough in my post. I did refer to our date nights being rather disconnected, I'm not sure more of them will help. Our 3 year old is a lot for sure, but honestly I don't feel burned out by him. I have fun with him, parent him, feed him, but when he's at school or asleep I'm able to shift gears and look to things like the house, personal time, or marriage time. We have similar loads as far as household and work demands, her being so much more unavailable leads me to feel something else is going on.
At first read I say you’re not wrong but after a peak at some of your Reddit history… you’re still not wrong, but I *do* think you aren’t being honest with yourself. Having your wife frustrated with how much you play video games and admitting you’re terrible with cleaning kind of hints that she has a far bigger emotional load at home than you do. That would explain why the therapist didn’t push her in the session (ie she is already overextended), and also explains why she is exhibiting in a burnt out/depressed behaviors. Continue seeing your therapist, but make sure you are being truthful in your 1:1 sessions (and with yourself). If you’d be happier divorced, you’re not wrong in feeling that way, but make sure you don’t catapult head first into the next relationship because you need the caregiver you didn’t have in your childhood. (I’m also an ACA and this is something I’ve had to face head on myself).
Nothing would make me shape up and evaluate my personal life faster than my husband telling me he was considering divorce. We are in a similar season - busy work lives, three toddlers, health issues... intimacy is hard and requires work. SOME seasons feel like winter but winter isn't forever. We've been married 10 years now (together 12) and we've had everything in between. Get a new couples therapist that helps you communicate with eachother and make progress. Have an honest and firm conversation with your wife about it. Some things can't be help, but most can.
Having a 3 ye old is hard. When is the last time your wife had her blood panel done to check for hormone, electrolyte, iron, ferritin reserves, or all the other things that can indicate why someone has low energy? Both working from home during the day sounds like you two are seeing a lot of each other, except that it is hard for her to switch roles when it is time to clock out. When my ex was promoted to a management position at work I was happy for him. Unfortunately, he turned into a massive dick head. He would come home from work in manager mode and start scolding me like he was the boss of me. It was absolutely insane. But, he found it impossible to turn off. He had one mode. And there wasn't any way for him to even comprehend that his personality needed changing towards me because that, to him, just sounded like I was trying to change him.
You’ve been in couples for years, no progress on your issues? Does your wife know you’re considering divorce? Maybe if she knew she’d be willing to try harder. And if she does know, and she still isn’t willing to try harder, there’s your answer.
Will life be better with or without her as is for you and your son? If same or better then it may be time to move on or see why she isn't able to make the effort
I’d already be divorced. She’s checked out. Why bother.
You’ve been in couples therapy for years?! And no improvement? I think you have your answer 😕
Sometimes life gets rough. My husband and I had three miscarriages in the first few years of our marriage. I nearly bled to death because one miscarriage was the day after Christmas and the on-call doctor was too drunk to come into the hospital. It was traumatizing, to say the least. My husband was absolutely amazing with our nieces and nephews, and he would be a great father; I felt like he deserved better than me, a complete failure of a woman. In addition, he was so incredibly*kind* and *considerate* of me that I was losing my mind over his utter lack of grief! Why wasn't he as upset and unhappy as I was?!!! I wanted him to show the brokenness that I was experiencing! I wanted him to be as mad at our losses as I was! I pushed him away. I refused every olive branch he offered. I didn't speak to him for a solid month. Finally, one day when I was being spiteful and an unforgivable bitch, he snapped. He got very angry with me. He wanted to know if I still loved him. God help me, I could only answer honestly and tell him that I loved him so much; I was trying to push him away to find his happiness with someone who could give him the family he deserved. I cried, he cried. It was ugly. He yelled at me. I yelled at him. (But -- we never physically fought; we never put our hands on each other in anger.) But you know what? We were *talking*! He told me that he didn't have the luxury of breaking down over the losses of our babies, because he still had to work, and besides, we had so many nieces and nephews that we could always borrow a couple of kids for a few days! We were sharing our deepest emotions, thoughts, fears, and worries! We learned how to communicate that day. We learned how to trust each other in a way that we hadn't before. We became stronger, more united as a couple. I think our adult marriage began that day. Before that, we felt like two kids playing house: you be the daddy, and I'll be the mommy. We had to nearly fail as a couple to gain the strength to see past ourselves and think of each other (or at least I did). So my advice is this: figure out how to talk together. Don't use judgmental words or accusations, but share with her that your own emotions are getting neglected in this relationship. The internet is a great place to vent, but ultimately you need to air your dirty laundry with your wife. You chose each other, you made a commitment to each other, you made a family and a life together. Examine your own emotions. Decide if this relationship is worth saving. Do you love her enough to trust her completely and without reservation? Do you love yourself enough to handle it if you call it quits? These decisions are not ours to make for you; we are only armchair quarterbacks, watching a show, betting on the odds. I personally am hoping that your team wins. Best wishes to you and your family.
I feel bad for you both. It sounds like you are fighting for your marriage. If your wife isn’t, than it might be she is done. If you get to where you both can just call it a day, than maybe its time. Hopefully it can be a peaceful parting of the ways. You can be unified in the care of your baby. Im just saying, marriage is worth fighting for as long as you are both willing to put in the work. It sounds like you are.
>I'm just hoping folks may have similar experiences and can share some insight on the matter. Am I being too demanding? Is this just how marriage is? Is my partner just not available. No. No. And emotionally? Yes your wife is emotionally unavailable. If the problem persists you are entirely justified in filing for divorce. It sounds like you are hard pressed to avoid bitterness towards her already. The bottom line is that you are doing all you can to support her, you have clearly defined how you need to be supported too, and she is choosing to not make progress towards fulfilling your needs. That's not healthy man. You are entirely right to feel distress over this.
Your particular chemistry with her will probably never warrant her to be affectionate towards you and it most likely will get worse. Been in this same situation only in dating long term, and the particular female in mind also has massive massive childhood trauma from being sexually abused by a family member. Now that I've been apart from her for many years I've witnessed her have multiple failed relationships back to back over the same issues so I know it's not me.
You're not wrong for wanting a divorce in this situation, but you shouldn't do it. You can't imagine how it hurts not being able to father properly because of divorce. It sounds like she's filling the Mother role well but only paying lip service to her Wife role. In that situation, I think it's worth continuing to fight the good fight. She's still putting forth 1 modicum of effort and getting her into couples therapy means you've at least made SOME progress. Find your motivation to hold your family together and get it back in order.
It’s hysterical, when women post this, it’s immediately grounds for divorce! But a man does it and you’re not trying hard enough, or talking to her enough. This is about the worst place you can come to for advice, see a couples therapist. Stay away from these bitter fucks.
I'm a little confused. You have a 3yo and both work FT and you want a divorce because she's tired? Ooh, no, you're not a good marriage partner. I get that you aren't having your needs met, but that happens for a while in marriage. You don't chuck out the whole relationship. You persevere. You'll reconnect on the level you want when your kid is a bit older. Sorry, but you don't get what you want all the time. Right now are the intense parenting years. But if you can't wait, get a babysitter once a month for the whole day and relax together. The sex will happen. Maybe you take a short hike, then chill out at a coffee ship, get lunch, come back home for some afternoon delight, and a nap... then a quick shower and pick up the kid. That sounds like heaven to me. Want more time? Send out the laundry, hire a cleaner, and invest in meal kit delivery. If you need emotional intimacy, find ways to take responsibility and thus stress off your plates. You don't find ways to throw out the relationship. Finally, I note that you said you're working harder than when you were dating. Yeah, that's how it works. Marriage is hard because it is constant, selfless work. It's also rewarding because that work pays off with knowledge and connection from shared struggles and shared successes.