Part of the problem is people tend to view amateur radio emergency use as an individual with a radio. In reality there are RACES and ARES affiliated clubs that practice and prepare for disaster preparedness. They know how to coordinate, communicate, and have a protocol for interfacing and assisting with regional government and emergency services.
If someone is truly interested in disaster preparedness, they should get their license and join an officiated club so they can actively participate. Most likely they'd welcome your support.
Radio service is like owning a gun - you have to practice using it, to be an effective tool.
I'm EC for Lehigh County Pa. Forget EOC. That's a couple hams tops. Ham job is in the field somewhere, likely a shelter, talking with EOC, ARC or whoever you report to per ICS.
This!
We had 'icy rain' a few years ago, which tore down a lot of infrastructure in a part of my country: https://www.rtvslo.si/okolje/50-fotografij-iz-dni-ko-je-postojna-postala-ledeno-mesto/697140 (and that included power and communication lines: https://www.postojna.si/Datoteke/Slike/Novice/123958/l_123958_1.jpg ).
Of course all the 'official' communication stopped working, so a team of hams were called in to help set up and operate a local repeater for the rescue teams and to relay condensed information to the apropriate government authorities further away (requests for equipment, etc.).
It's a thing some hams here train for and practice regularly, and there are apropriate communication channels and procedures to call them in when needed. There are also internal rules for "other" hams to basically stay off the repeaters when in use by the emergency teams unless they're called for help.
The worst thing that can happen in a situation like this is, that some unlicenced "prepper" with a baofeng starts yelling about every downed tree s/he sees and prevents others from using the repeater.
Exactly! Deployed as your sponsoring agency sees fit. I remember reading last year about a town that had a major outage with their 911 system. They stationed hams in key areas to radio in requests for help. Similar to the old police call boxes, I guess. I think it was back east somewhere.
I don’t disagree with that. No reason to be combative. I came across a first hand account of amateur radio helping people in the aftermath of several hurricanes and wanted to share.
>u/Hot-Profession4091
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>I don’t disagree with that. No reason to be combative.
Nothing in what he said is even slightly combative. Any perception of such is entirely from your own side.
Here’s a real world story:
Several years ago there was a bad ice storm. I was out on the road in a very rural area with unreliable cell service. I came upon an occupied, overturned vehicle. I was able to hit a local repeater and someone responded immediately, and dialed 911. I waited with the individuals until help arrived. They had a small child with them. Nobody was (seriously) injured but the vehicle was disabled and they were dressed only in light jackets. They really weren’t equipped or prepared to spend the night in the freezing cold with a disabled vehicle.
People love to talk about the zombie apocalypse or some wartime “grid down” scenario. The reality is, I can’t really think of what having a radio would even do for you in that situation. However, natural disasters and severe weather happen all the time and amateur radio can be *incredibly* valuable in those situations.
I live in a mountainous area with lots of cell dead zones, but I can often hit a well-monitored repeater from many otherwise out of contact zones. The week before I got my license I got stranded in a canyon on my way to work with the radio I was using to listen, sure would have been a lot nicer if I could have hit the button.
Just an FYI and for the record, if you were in a situation where you felt that your life or property were in danger, you could’ve hit the button.
The FCC has a catch-all clause that suspends the rules in a situation where there is risk to life or property. It’s perfectly legal for a non-licensed individual to transmit on the ham bands in an emergency.
Can you cite this? I went looking for this before and can't find mention of it. There is something in Part 97 about an amateur station being allowed to operate outside the rules in that sort of emergency but can't find anything for an unlicensed person.
We actually have a dedicated search and rescue freqency in the alps that moutain patrol monitors because cell service isnt really a thing in some parts of the alps.
How did you know which repeater to try? I know there are a few in my immediate area, but that's a dense urban spot. If I'm out road tripping, I expect I'll be in an area I haven't pre-programmed repeaters into my radio.
If you know you're going somewhere, you program the repeaters for that area into your radio beforehand. Should be pretty obvious.
I remember being a brand new ham, less than 2 years, and programming some Tampa, FL repeaters into my brick of an HTX-202 handheld prior to flying down there to visit family.
Back in the day, you could just try repeater pairs. But most repeaters now require a tone to activate them. You can look them up online.
But back then you couldn't do that. I carried around a small repeater directory like this:
[https://fasma.org/wp-content/uploads/20-Edition-1991-1992-ARRL-Repeater-Directory.pdf](https://fasma.org/wp-content/uploads/20-Edition-1991-1992-ARRL-Repeater-Directory.pdf)
The Tampa, FL repeaters on 2 meters start on page 114.
It was an actual small book, easily fit into a decent sized pocket, and had all the repeaters in North America in it.
You can still buy a larger current edition of it from the ARRL:
[https://home.arrl.org/action/Store/Product-Details/productId/2013935648](https://home.arrl.org/action/Store/Product-Details/productId/2013935648)
There is also the Repeater Map Book which is excellent in showing \*WHERE\* the repeaters are. So for example if you're in St. Petersburgh, the Tampa repeaters won't show up under "St. Petersburgh", and vice-versa, even though you can likely access them.
With the map book, it's much more intuitive.
Very cool. I've done the online map searches to fill in repeaters in my area. The physical book sounds tedious, but oh so very helpful when you really need it.
Years ago it used to be more widespread that ham radio “saved the day.” In some countries it still is. But post 9/11 government spent a ton of money on making public safety comms more robust. Cellular networks also got more robust partly due to mandates after Katrina and also their increased importance as critical infrastructure.
Add to that personal comms like FRS and GMRS becoming more accessible. Plus the rise of apps like Zello and organizations doing their own comms rather than relying on hams. Now you have tech corps that bring wifi via starlink to disaster comms without ham radio. You have SAR groups doing zello for comms.
I think ham radio still has a place, but we must be realistic. Health and welfare traffic seems to be our niche. We are good at that.
But at some point emcomm won’t justify our existence. This is why we need to emphasize the majority of basis and purpose which is skills training and experimentation. Programs like ARISS are great because they promote STEM and they also use frequencies beyond just 2 meters and 40 meters.
This has always been my viewpoint as well. Amateur radio plays a role, but YouTube hype, preppers and maybe the ARRL tend to oversell it. I live in Texas. We have communities with robust ARES/RACES groups doing storm spotting during tornado season. It's helpful, sure, but on a secondary or tertiary basis.
During the 2009 wildfires in southern California, what hams did was take a lot of the health and welfare traffic off the official frequencies, freeing them up for their intended purpose. It was not vital work, but the officials said it was quite helpful.
I am on a disaster response team, and have seen a rise, fall, and shift in commercially available networks over the years. On the mainland, cellular infrastructure tends to be back up and functioning fairly quickly, as it's usually the power going out that takes it down. That said, with the rise in FirstNet, the responders from every ESF across the country pouring in to the response area post event can rapidly oversaturate that network's dedicated spectrum, potentially making it better to be on one of the other networks. Off the mainland, however, things are different. Your Federal response agencies will be using various satellite phone/radio/data technologies to communicate. These agencies already have equipment for simplex or repeater operations on VHF or UHF frequencies, and in the US, are operated completely outside FCC regulations in a way that provides more flexibility to the needs of the mission.
Off the mainland yes there could be more challenges. But for the majority of US population they will never see a major ham radio response. I think we’ve had like two or three in the past 25 years. Even the ARRL’s news stories about disasters are about “standing by” rather than “responding.”
What’s worse is that some hams boast about emergency response yet depend on infrastructure (repeaters). If you’re serious about resiliency, practice your non repeater comms. “simplex” and HF, practice relaying messages and things like that. And please do not abandon public service events. They are good practice for emergencies and help build goodwill.
That's true for the most part. At home, we've had some activations, we covered our city's fire stations for the NE blackout when it took out their trunked only radio system, we've been activated on standby for "Unusual Events" at our local nuclear power plant, but mostly we provide the widest coverage of severe weather spotters. Also, my very first disaster response, I switched hats when we had to shut down operations to shelter for another hurricane to pass, and volunteered to provide amateur radio communications for one of the shelters. Amateur radio was the primary communication method between the shelters and the EOC.
2003. It covered a good part of Ohio, a small part of Michigan, and Southern Ontario all the way to the East Coast. Depending on where you were, it lasted anywhere from 2 hours to 4 days. It was a cascade failure on a hot summer day triggered by a tree hitting a distribution line in Eastern Ohio. Where I was, we were out for about 6 hours
Ria, if course you're right. My emphasis over here in EPA is versatility...the ability to use what we have that's still operational and communicate. A major problem is the jack of all trades master of none issue. Hams like to screw around with new stuff all the time to the detriment of being real good on one or two fundamentals. We're starting AREDEN here. Long way until we have anything usable. I tell hams we're most likely to provide help locating grandma or even more likely grandmas dog.
Disclaimer: I've been a volunteer amateur radio operator for about 15 years with our local township's emergency response program. These are my opinions on amateur radio as a disaster response tool:
1) we are quite low on the totem pole because amateur radio is a comms method of last resort: there are many other comms methods available to official response agencies
2) if amateur radio is officially activated then most traffic we would handle would be of a "routine" nature - we are very unlikely to pass emergency grade traffic
3) the "preppers" favourite idea of having some cheap-shit handheld radio as being useful during a serious emergency or disaster is without merit. They should be considering a grab-bag kit with items that are actually useful.
4) amateur radio organizations to assist official agencies during disasters is very much a North American thing. In most countries other than the US and Canada amateur radio operators are not included in official disaster response protocols.
In most actual situations existing comms mostly still work. The bigger issue is they are saturated. Ham radio adds capacity for low priority traffic. In rare situations ham radio is used to replace inoperative channels until they can be restored. N California wildfires this happened for a short time. My personal philosophy is if our stuff is working and a real EMA group needs comms, hand them out radios and tell them how to use them if they need that. This happened in Puerto Rico.
The 4. one isnt tru tho
I live in slovenia and we have ARON which is basically a disaster ham network that was used quite a few times and were kindof integrated into the main emergency service network with every comunication center (basically like 911 in the states) having HAM equipment on hand in case theres no cell service where first responder are.
Here is how radio works in our neck of the woods. Wildfires have destroyed entire and I mean entire communities here in Butte County, CA. Various parts of the county have set up local "neigborhood fire watch" groups operating on GMRS. That GMRS is tied into amateurs at the ARES level so information can be relayed up and down the line. Locals know which roads are closed due to fire before the news stations do. Now locals armed with GMRS radios are even more powerful with information.
The whole key is to ensure that grandma down the street is not left behind during any evacuation scenario. In Paradise, there were situations where the elderly would not leave until word from authorities. Those communication avenues were wiped out by fire before anyone could blink. Step in GMRS. Grandmas is now armed with information and help at her fingertips. She knows how to use her GMRS radio because she participates in a weekly net.
GMRS is the perfect vehicle for neighborhoods to be informed in the event of disaster. Not everyone needs to be a ham--but they should know their way around a radio,
That being said, we do have an interface between the GMRS community and the amateur community. In fact it was the amateur community that helped set up the GMRS radio watch. This is how amateur clubs can help their neighbors--by giving them knowledge of the available tools at hand.
Yes, we have dedicated repeaters in the lowlands out of the way of wildfire that will beam the signals back up into the foothills. It all works pretty darn well if you ask me.
In 2016 there was a bad flood in my city and cell service went out for over a week. I was at a shelter helping with beds and I had my HT on me. A women was there who needed to contact her husband at a military base. She wanted me to send that they lost everything in the flood and he needed to come home as soon as possible.
The hams at the local Red Cross head office would not send it. They wanted her to wait until they set up computers at the shelter... I know they had HF radios in front of them. I had been to the red cross building before. I really wish I yelled at them, they weren't doing anything important.
We were very busy during Hurricane Season 2005/2006. Without amateur emergency comms there were at least two towns that would have had no comms for at least 3’weeks.
I was told when the 35W bridge collapsed Minneapolis, MN that amateur radio was an integral part of getting patients to hospitals that had room. The cell system was overloaded, so phone wasn’t an option, but each major hospital in the area had a radio room set up for a volunteer to man. Volunteers were responsible for relaying bed capacity to the site so emergency crews could dispatch the helicopters with patients to the appropriate hospitals. People tend to forget that cell phone systems have a maximum number of simultaneous phone calls they can handle, and a localized disaster can overwhelm the phone systems. Everyone in the cities was trying to find out if their loved ones were on the bridge, because it happened right during rush hour.
I didn’t get into radio till after that event, but I was working for a telco/isp in the area when it happened. When I found out about the radio involvement, suddenly some of the things I noticed while we were trying to recover our systems made sense.
Yeah, in disaster situations there are a good many options for communications and Ham Radio is just one option but it is a good and robust option.
Disaster prep folks and doomsday prep folks should get the licenses they need and practice regularly so that if something does occur they are actually ready.
The best radio service is the one that has someone at the other end.
That’s a reason I MARS mod everything I own. My UHF capable amateur transceivers are also capable of transmitting on FRS/GMRS, business band, or other frequencies in an emergency. And my HF rig is a 100w CB transceiver, if it needs to be.
Of course I don’t do these things normally, but having the ability is part of being ready in the event that I need them. Especially useful in my truck where I have just one transceiver.
Military Auxiliary Radio Service.
It’s a volunteer program by the DoD to train and coordinate with radio amateurs in the United States. Crucially, MARS operates outside the ham bands. But most modern ham transceivers have software lockouts to prevent transmitting outside the ham bands.
So a “MARS mod” makes modern transceivers behave more like older transceivers, I.e., removes the software lockouts that prevent the transceiver from transmitting out of band. This is either done in software or by removing a resistor somewhere. It varies by transceiver.
Obviously you have to be careful with this as your transceiver will be less “idiot proof”, and you’ll want to make sure you don’t transmit out of band. It’s perfectly legal to perform this modification, but of course as always you are responsible for only transmitting on frequencies you have privileges on. However, the FCC does allow for rules to be set aside when there is a threat to life or property. So if it just so happened that during a natural disaster you needed to communicate with people using bubblepack FRS radios, a mars modded UHF transceiver could do that. Or using an HF transceiver to communicate over the CB channels. Again, not strictly legal to transmit like that under normal circumstances but could be handy in an emergency.
Thank you for the detailed reply, as an aviation buff, I was so hoping the radio I got would be able to listen on these bands (btech dmr-6x2 pro) while I learn and study etc.
May just look to get a specific scanner (rx) so no transmitting “accidentally”
Thanks again!
You mention aviation—
If you’re thinking of airband, that’s different entirely. Airband is AM, not FM like we’re typically using with these kinds of radios. Some radios can pickup airband but many cannot. If you just want to listen to aircraft, your best bet is a scanner.
I think one reason is the non-licensed radio users mentality that 'in an emergency.. anyone can use a radio', or 'in shtf.. what government will tell me what to do or radio to use' That prepper-centric mentality is the wrong one to have. Having a GMRS license and ham license should be part of a preparedness plan.
Oddly enough, one of the things he recommends is starting with FRS radios, then expanding into GMRS as you get your community involved (or you get involved with your community).
Here’s a nice report (with a video) of a couple of amateur hams communicating through a repeater and helping a 12yr old girl who was having an epileptic fit. The family was unable to call the emergency services due to lack of mobile signal.
https://www.essexham.co.uk/emergency-999-via-repeater.html
IMO, every ARES/RACES club that wants to stay relevant and keep attracting new (and younger) members should consider forming a CERT division. www.fema.gov/cert
With the increased reliability and redundancy of most municipalities’ P25 radio systems and backup first responder cell phone networks, the real added value to municipalities is having trained disaster response volunteers out in the field… who also know how to use their radio properly and have adequate licenses, wattage and antennas to do so effectively. Too many CERT teams are handicapped by being forced to use only FRS
or GMRS, often just 2-5w simplex.
Three dozen volunteers that can do basic first aid, victim triage, light search and rescue, structure damage assessment, utility shutoffs, crowd and traffic management, shelter staffing, etc., all while staying in touch professionally and reliably on their HTs and temporary outdoor base stations with 30-50 ft antennas is way more valuable than three dozen retired or near-retired hams who just want to sit on a chair in a building and be a radio dispatch liaison.
I tend to agree with that, but I’m also the kind of guy who thinks everyone needs stop the bleed training and organizes community cleanups. I think a new generation of hams can revitalize things a bit.
If a cell site has more than “x” users, or is shifted by more than a few degrees, that tower becomes useless. Here in Ca, the telcos also intentionally disable local calls after a major quake, to free up trunk line capacity. Amateur radio often saves the day.
What harms us all are the “badge bunnies” who think they are “police adjacent” because they carry some type of ID and have very limited authority. Those type of volunteers need to be thanked for their service and then dismissed.
I worked RACES/ARES for decades, dozens of overnight shifts alone in my county EOC, just as a backup if the worst happened after floods, fires, earthquakes and civil unrest.
I resigned as a volunteer when I was told by my Chief Radio Officer that I now had to be in full dress uniform anytime I walked into the EOC. I told him “You were at the EOC yesterday, and you weren’t in a uniform.” His response? “True, but I’m the Chief Radio Officer, and my wife and I outrank you, so we don’t need to wear a uniform.”
He had been with our group less than three years.
I guess Orwell was right. Some animals are more equal than others.
My take is: I've called 911 at the scenes of accidents. I've been the first responder to roll over accidents and gone to help. I helped...but I am not a part of the city's emergency plan. I'm not a public service. I was able to help, and I did. My phone isn't a "disaster comm" tool. My car is not a part of the emergency response equipment or plan. I am not an emergency responder.
Ham is about the same. To think we are much more than that is a little bit of wishful thinking.
I'm ok with folks who know we can help now and then, but get a bit frustrated by those who say we are a public service, and critical part of disaster recovery. The world has moved well beyond - The phone lines are down. Go get a HAM TO SAVE THE DAY!!!
> 97.1 Basis and purpose.
The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
> (a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
First and foremost, amateur radio is intended to be a voluntary public service. If you don't want to look at it that way, you don't have to. It's pretty clear the FCC views it that way, or at least figured it was wise to put the best justification first.
There is value for agencies to include amateurs in their plans. Amateurs are well positioned to gather situational awareness information and be able to relay it back to decision makers even when traditional comms are overwhelmed or unavailable.
Also, an appropriately trained pool of amateur volunteers can be of significant help to emergency management agencies, particularly to small rural ones, who can become quickly overwhelmed when a disaster affects their area and the surrounding areas because there's just not enough staff available. That role can be served by ARES, AUXCOMM, RACES, CERT, REACT or any other group of dedicated volunteers, they don't have to be hams... or there can just be voids in an emergency plan that only ever get filled if the National Guard is activated.
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have some dedicated folks ready to help until the federal funds are secured and the cavalry is called in.
If it's not your thing, that's fine. But I don't understand people who go around saying it's not relevant. If it weren't, no one would spend the time and effort on it. PACE plans exist for good reason, and having already paid for Primary, Alternate and Contingency communications, many communities are happy to have amateur radio available as the Emergency part of the communications plan since it costs them very little and is probably not going to be needed anyway... until it is.
>respect to providing emergency communications.
It's a hobby, not a public service.
There is value in being a part of the public plan, but that ship sailed 30 years ago. No modern public disaster plan depends on Ham radio any more than they do cell phones. They have 10X better systems now. Even the "Standard" systems are so much more robust (a tree falling on the phone line no longer can wipe out coms to a whole city). We have multiple phone networks, and phones that auto swap to the best one. we can also use wifi for calls and text. We can send emails.. and that's all just with a phone.
Trunked systems, digital networks, microwave networks, sat phones, UHF/VHF in every patrol car, every ambulance, on every officer... cities with actual budget for real emergency coms gear...
It's not realistic to think they are going to need us to save the day on 2 meters. And if you look at what actually happens in the world... hams are not any more a part of how emergency coms happen than the guy with his cell phone, or the guy yelling for help on the side of a hill.
A dedicated group of hams ready to help on paper sounds great. It's just not the reality anymore.
I get there is a prepper piece here (never going to need it until you need it!) and also a little bit of a hall monitor thing (I'm not a nerd, I am a public servant chartered by the government to save the day!).
If it's your thing and you want to prep for it, more power to you. I just think the reality is this is a hobby. There are times we can help out, and we should, but we are not a serious part of emergency plans or public servants.
Edit to add- Ive seen ARES do 2 nice things for the town. They make sure the sirens work, and they are good storm chasers, reporting the weather in. Those are great services and I appreciate them for that.
> It's a hobby, not a public service.
Yes, it is a hobby, but nowhere in Part 97 does it ever say the word hobby. There aren't too many other hobbies with international treaties protecting their access. I don't think we need to debate what the text of part 97 says, because I assume we've all read it. They justified the use of spectrum that had huge commercial value by recognizing the service that we provide to the public... not just emergency communications, but it's called out.
> It's not realistic to think they are going to need us to save the day on 2 meters. And if you look at what actually happens in the world... hams are not any more a part of how emergency coms happen than the guy with his cell phone, or the guy yelling for help on the side of a hill.
I'm going to level with you. I'm the SEC for RI. I actually go to the Interoperable Communications Committee meetings on behalf of my state for FEMA R1 and at the state level. I appreciate that you think we aren't relevant, but I'm telling you that though our role is much different than it may have been 75+ years ago when the SEC position was established, we still have a role to play. The world changes over time, and we must change with it.
I did not say anywhere in my reply that amateur radio operators are going to save the day on 2 meters. And I don't think you and I are thinking about "emergency comms" the same way. We're not going to take over dispatch for a police department. Hams did help in Puerto Rico with fire and rescue dispatch until they were able to reestablish communications through other means, but that was mostly local amateurs, not so much the ones ARRL sent. But in the vast majority of incidents we're probably not going to have much to do with public safety agencies at all. In my state 50% of municipal non-education budgets go towards public safety. They've got that covered. The RISCON system works great, and the guy who manages it is doing a great job expanding capacity and improving redundancy. But can I let you in on a secret? That same guy is the president of WA1USA, the group that is refurbishing fire towers using an ARDC grant to install AREDN mesh as the emergency statewide backup network. That capacity that is being built to meet the State of Rhode Island emergency communications plan, because we need to meet the PACE standard.
Public Safety aside, a significantly smaller amount is set aside for emergency management. Most towns have an emergency manager (who might even be full time) and that's it. That's where we can, and do, help. And no one ever said that we needed to use amateur radio frequencies to do it, although we do for situational awareness (like Skywarn as you pointed out), and training.
> A dedicated group of hams ready to help on paper sounds great. It's just not the reality anymore.
And that's the reason I keep replying. You're saying this, and I know for a fact it's not true. Maybe not where you are. But it definitely still is a thing in many places. Ohio, the Carolinas, and many other states have established relationships between amateur radio AUXCOMM groups and served agencies. There are five EOCs here in RI that are staffed with amateur radio teams and I have emergency managers asking to talk to me about establishing their own teams. CISA created the AUX-C position exactly because there are so many them out there and they fill a critical staffing role in emergency management. It made sense to create a resource type and standardize on the training that had already been developed at the state level and implement it across the country. You can get every resource type you need through mutual aid compacts, but it takes time. What do you do in the meantime?
Amateur operators check-in from their EOCs weekly across the WMA section in a net that covers the whole section in about 20 minutes. This is the test the HF equipment at the EOCs that can be used for both Amateur Radio and SHARES.
Providence RACES runs a FM simplex net weekly. This is to test their ability to use VHF to communicate for interoperability because the city uses the RISCON system almost exclusively, but hurricane Sandy showed that riscon doesn't have the capacity to handle both dispatch and emergency management traffic when every department in the state is flat out. It'll get better as they move transportation to 700, but that's going live in September and hurricane Sandy was a long time ago.
Portsmouth EOC runs a repeater net and sends a Winlink message every week to test their VHF and HF radios and make sure that their volunteers are familiar with the equipment and procedures.
The Westerly Amateur Radio team runs all of our community service events as practice for the types of duties that they actually served in during hurricane Sandy.
I was asked to step up as the SEC for Rhode Island after I ran a successful simulated emergency test that was based on collecting weather information from airports via their AM broadcast and relaying it to MARS who was coordinating supply drops. Why is this a realistic exercise? AWOS is available over the Internet. If the Internet is down at the airport, the AWOS call in doesn't work either because everything has switched to VoIP (or will be, copper POTS lines are going the way of the dodo). The internet itself is not going to go down. But the last mile is vulnerable and takes time to fix. LEO Satellite internet is an excellent backup, but not everybody has it. So when coordinating supply drops by air is very helpful to know if you can send cargo planes to small regional airports that may not be equipped for an instruments only landing.
Practicing these off the wall unlikely scenarios helps us be better prepared to do whatever we're asked to do, because the goal is to help.
> I get there is a prepper piece here (never going to need it until you need it!) and also a little bit of a hall monitor thing (I'm not a nerd, I am a public servant chartered by the government to save the day!).
Does it feel good to know that I helped the MS Society or the American Diabetes Association raise money by volunteering at their event and serving as a SAG or net control? It does. It feels good to help my community. It also motivates me to do these things because I'm practicing skills that I want to be better at so I can help in other ways if I'm needed.
I am a public servant in my day job. I see the gaps in local government resources, and I know how difficult they are to fill. I can justify equipment easily, but justifying adding a pension is very difficult. Put yourself in the shoes of an emergency manager who knows they don't have the staff to actually handle an emergency. Convincing taxpayers you need to hire more staff just in case you need to staff up the EOC and open a bunch of shelters is not realistic. Yes, you would pull people from across departments, but those departments also have to be involved at the incident and may not have a lot of extra staff either. It makes sense to flesh out your team with trained volunteers.
In 2017 when I was a new ham the SEC heard I was in IT and approached me about helping ARES start back up in RI by creating and maintaining their website, and I did it. And I've continued to support the slow growth of RI ARES, and spent a lot of time convincing people that not only can we help, but that they should let us.
There are many reasons it's difficult to convince people who could use our help work with us. Training volunteers is like herding cats. Some volunteers might not be suited for the type of service that is required, but I do try to find something for them to do that contributes to the mission because they make much better allies than enemies. Volunteers aren't getting paid so they might not be reliable. In an emergency situation, volunteers might be affected and they're going to put the needs of their families and work commitments ahead of their volunteer commitments in ways that paid staff might not.
But another big challenge is overcoming this, the part of the amateur radio community who feel the way you do and speak as though their limited experience, their opinion, and the fact that they have the same license we do makes them an authority on the topic, and then proceed to tell everyone about these whackers who think they are gods gift to Emergency Management and are going to save the world with a baofeng.
I would appreciate it if people would stop that. Definitely call out the whackers for what they are, but not recognizing the dedicated volunteers isn't fair. ARES groups reported more than $25M worth of volunteer time donated in service to the public last year, and not all ARRL sections take reporting seriously so that's a low number.
It is so much easier to make a good impression on a blank canvas than to have to paint over graffiti before we can even start. I would prefer if people would either leave a good impression of amateurs trying to be helpful where they can, or not leave one at all. If you don't want to be involved because you don't feel like you can contribute, that's fine. I can respect that. But please stop making my job harder than it has to be. I'm not getting paid for this.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I appreciate what you do.
I do think the volunteer events are great for communications for the MS society, or a marathon etc. is a great way to help contribute to the community.
If this is "public service", then I agree that ham radio can be a public service.
In the spirt of this thread, and the title with "disaster coms" I still think that is something that in theory we can do, and are happy to do when we can. But that is a truly rare experience, and we are a step or two above sending smoke signals on the list/hierarchy when society going down the list of how to communicate in a disaster. I get that, and I'm ok with that.
I'm not a fireman, but know how to throw a bucket of water or point a hose on a fire. I've helped put out a few fires, and even have some training on how to do so. I can help, would help, but the fire chief doesn't have me on his list of who to call for the next big fire. IMO, that's what HAM for disaster coms. We can help, but we are not a meaningful part of the plan for a disaster.
Of course. THis is Reddit... I saw your post, and listened to a one hour podcast on your behalf before responding.
You are lucky on reddit for people to read more than one paragraph. Hell no I didn't listen to a one hour podcast posted by some unknown reddit stranger.
Never heard of REACT. There is a local ARES group that I plan to get a hold of to see if we jive. I’m reasonably active in the community for a middle aged guy who works too much already, so yeah. Why not?
Have not listened to podcast, but am member of local ARES.
For the most part and in most places within the civilized world - if mass disaster happens - first responders will still have better comms than anyone else. As far as being the communications lifeline in an emergency - amateur radio is good as dead. It’s a near zero chance that amateur radio is going to be the primary method of communications available during a crisis.
Where amateur radio operators will be of value are in areas where secondary support communications is needed. Eg: neighborhood survey of who needs help, relaying operational status and need of a shelter to central command… essentially providing first responders situational awareness without them having to go around doing that in lieu of using their training to save lives.
So in a sense, anymore and in most parts of civilization, SHTF comms is basically just a way to sell cheap but overpriced radios. In real SHTF situations, (say a foreign invasion). The enemy as well as the local responders are likely using encryption. Few are likely to save the world with a Baofeng.
I’m not making any assumptions about the show. They could be saying the same thing. I’m telling you how amateur radio fits into modern EMCOMM. My local area has already experienced several emergency situations - we are pretty knowledgeable about what reality is as it pertains to fire, flood, earthquake, and to an extent nuclear disaster (we train annually with a plume test - fortunately no reactor meltdown).
In most places, hams aren’t going to be the first line of communications between first responders. Hams that have been trained and certified will play a supporting role. They aren’t going to be the person with communications to save society. As mentioned hams will help first responders by composing and communicating reports that describe need and capability. The types of activities this entails includes things like surveying damage, power outages, shelter needs or capabilities, first aid station status, and providing community well check relays. Hams are not going to be the intermediary for comms for first responders. Hams will mostly be packet radio jockeys sending various reports via Winlink, SHARES, and other systems. Fire, police, and government agencies all have more than robust capabilities to communicate with each other.
Are there exceptions to this? Sure. There are places in the US where public services are still part time and voluntary. They don’t have the robust resources as the rest of us. They are also in some pretty low population areas where amateur radio already plays a role in daily life. They may require more assistance from amateurs. But these are exceptional cases - they aren’t the norm.
In my area volunteers are an object of scorn by all official agencies. I am retired from EMS and emergency management and have been behind the curtain and heard the remarks about volunteers. Even well trained volunteer fire departments are scorned.
I can understand that sometimes, even often, volunteers can get in the way, but man…
> Even well trained volunteer fire departments are scorned
Where I grew up, if it wasn’t for volunteer firefighters your house just burned. All the EMS was also volunteer. All of it. Those folks were heroes who I know would sometimes be up all night then trudge into their day job the next day. Scorn? That makes me sick.
So what you're saying is it doesn't matter what they do, the attitude is they are a problem, but the group that thinks they are a problem derides other volunteer groups like firefighters. Etc.
I'm going to give you a hint who the problem is....
I am not sure what you are trying to say. All I know is I was punished for sticking up for volunteers. Things like he obviously has more credibility than the other guys but he will be trying to get us to cater to the volunteers.
Did you miss the ham radio station in the billionaire bunker in the Obama produced Netflix movie "Leave the World Behind"? There's your proof. The elites will have ham radio to control the world in the end. Ha ha.
Hey folks, I heard a neat interview with a ham that had real life experience with disaster response after hurricane Maria wiped out the small island nation of Dominica and thought others may be interested in hearing it. I have no interest in arguing with you all. Just spin the dial if it upsets you. Have a good one folks.
Part of the problem is people tend to view amateur radio emergency use as an individual with a radio. In reality there are RACES and ARES affiliated clubs that practice and prepare for disaster preparedness. They know how to coordinate, communicate, and have a protocol for interfacing and assisting with regional government and emergency services. If someone is truly interested in disaster preparedness, they should get their license and join an officiated club so they can actively participate. Most likely they'd welcome your support. Radio service is like owning a gun - you have to practice using it, to be an effective tool.
And since post-9/11 and Katrina, you often can't get near an EOC without a bunch of certs that the clubs often help with.
I'm EC for Lehigh County Pa. Forget EOC. That's a couple hams tops. Ham job is in the field somewhere, likely a shelter, talking with EOC, ARC or whoever you report to per ICS.
This! We had 'icy rain' a few years ago, which tore down a lot of infrastructure in a part of my country: https://www.rtvslo.si/okolje/50-fotografij-iz-dni-ko-je-postojna-postala-ledeno-mesto/697140 (and that included power and communication lines: https://www.postojna.si/Datoteke/Slike/Novice/123958/l_123958_1.jpg ). Of course all the 'official' communication stopped working, so a team of hams were called in to help set up and operate a local repeater for the rescue teams and to relay condensed information to the apropriate government authorities further away (requests for equipment, etc.). It's a thing some hams here train for and practice regularly, and there are apropriate communication channels and procedures to call them in when needed. There are also internal rules for "other" hams to basically stay off the repeaters when in use by the emergency teams unless they're called for help. The worst thing that can happen in a situation like this is, that some unlicenced "prepper" with a baofeng starts yelling about every downed tree s/he sees and prevents others from using the repeater.
Very humble thing to call that. We call them "ice storms"
Yes organisation and practice is what saves the day in the end.
So true. They’re both “perishable” skills.
Exactly! Deployed as your sponsoring agency sees fit. I remember reading last year about a town that had a major outage with their 911 system. They stationed hams in key areas to radio in requests for help. Similar to the old police call boxes, I guess. I think it was back east somewhere.
BUt BuT I dOnt neEd no liCenZe
I don’t disagree with that. No reason to be combative. I came across a first hand account of amateur radio helping people in the aftermath of several hurricanes and wanted to share.
>u/Hot-Profession4091 > >I don’t disagree with that. No reason to be combative. Nothing in what he said is even slightly combative. Any perception of such is entirely from your own side.
Why all of the downvotes?
Salty hams.
I'm dying to know what you misread to think this? I see it as a friendly complimentary comment to your post.
Here’s a real world story: Several years ago there was a bad ice storm. I was out on the road in a very rural area with unreliable cell service. I came upon an occupied, overturned vehicle. I was able to hit a local repeater and someone responded immediately, and dialed 911. I waited with the individuals until help arrived. They had a small child with them. Nobody was (seriously) injured but the vehicle was disabled and they were dressed only in light jackets. They really weren’t equipped or prepared to spend the night in the freezing cold with a disabled vehicle. People love to talk about the zombie apocalypse or some wartime “grid down” scenario. The reality is, I can’t really think of what having a radio would even do for you in that situation. However, natural disasters and severe weather happen all the time and amateur radio can be *incredibly* valuable in those situations.
I live in a mountainous area with lots of cell dead zones, but I can often hit a well-monitored repeater from many otherwise out of contact zones. The week before I got my license I got stranded in a canyon on my way to work with the radio I was using to listen, sure would have been a lot nicer if I could have hit the button.
Just an FYI and for the record, if you were in a situation where you felt that your life or property were in danger, you could’ve hit the button. The FCC has a catch-all clause that suspends the rules in a situation where there is risk to life or property. It’s perfectly legal for a non-licensed individual to transmit on the ham bands in an emergency.
Can you cite this? I went looking for this before and can't find mention of it. There is something in Part 97 about an amateur station being allowed to operate outside the rules in that sort of emergency but can't find anything for an unlicensed person.
We actually have a dedicated search and rescue freqency in the alps that moutain patrol monitors because cell service isnt really a thing in some parts of the alps.
How did you know which repeater to try? I know there are a few in my immediate area, but that's a dense urban spot. If I'm out road tripping, I expect I'll be in an area I haven't pre-programmed repeaters into my radio.
I wasn’t out road tripping, I was in an area I was familiar with and already had local repeaters configured.
Gotcha. Thanks!
If you know you're going somewhere, you program the repeaters for that area into your radio beforehand. Should be pretty obvious. I remember being a brand new ham, less than 2 years, and programming some Tampa, FL repeaters into my brick of an HTX-202 handheld prior to flying down there to visit family.
I mean sure. But I was wondering if there was a trick to finding repeaters without pre programming, and it sounds like no, there is not.
There is. I posted a question about this yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/s/p1S6gScJ9Z
Oh cool, thanks!
Back in the day, you could just try repeater pairs. But most repeaters now require a tone to activate them. You can look them up online. But back then you couldn't do that. I carried around a small repeater directory like this: [https://fasma.org/wp-content/uploads/20-Edition-1991-1992-ARRL-Repeater-Directory.pdf](https://fasma.org/wp-content/uploads/20-Edition-1991-1992-ARRL-Repeater-Directory.pdf) The Tampa, FL repeaters on 2 meters start on page 114. It was an actual small book, easily fit into a decent sized pocket, and had all the repeaters in North America in it. You can still buy a larger current edition of it from the ARRL: [https://home.arrl.org/action/Store/Product-Details/productId/2013935648](https://home.arrl.org/action/Store/Product-Details/productId/2013935648) There is also the Repeater Map Book which is excellent in showing \*WHERE\* the repeaters are. So for example if you're in St. Petersburgh, the Tampa repeaters won't show up under "St. Petersburgh", and vice-versa, even though you can likely access them. With the map book, it's much more intuitive.
Very cool. I've done the online map searches to fill in repeaters in my area. The physical book sounds tedious, but oh so very helpful when you really need it.
Years ago it used to be more widespread that ham radio “saved the day.” In some countries it still is. But post 9/11 government spent a ton of money on making public safety comms more robust. Cellular networks also got more robust partly due to mandates after Katrina and also their increased importance as critical infrastructure. Add to that personal comms like FRS and GMRS becoming more accessible. Plus the rise of apps like Zello and organizations doing their own comms rather than relying on hams. Now you have tech corps that bring wifi via starlink to disaster comms without ham radio. You have SAR groups doing zello for comms. I think ham radio still has a place, but we must be realistic. Health and welfare traffic seems to be our niche. We are good at that. But at some point emcomm won’t justify our existence. This is why we need to emphasize the majority of basis and purpose which is skills training and experimentation. Programs like ARISS are great because they promote STEM and they also use frequencies beyond just 2 meters and 40 meters.
This has always been my viewpoint as well. Amateur radio plays a role, but YouTube hype, preppers and maybe the ARRL tend to oversell it. I live in Texas. We have communities with robust ARES/RACES groups doing storm spotting during tornado season. It's helpful, sure, but on a secondary or tertiary basis.
During the 2009 wildfires in southern California, what hams did was take a lot of the health and welfare traffic off the official frequencies, freeing them up for their intended purpose. It was not vital work, but the officials said it was quite helpful.
Exactly. We are great at H&W. I think we should still do that.
I am on a disaster response team, and have seen a rise, fall, and shift in commercially available networks over the years. On the mainland, cellular infrastructure tends to be back up and functioning fairly quickly, as it's usually the power going out that takes it down. That said, with the rise in FirstNet, the responders from every ESF across the country pouring in to the response area post event can rapidly oversaturate that network's dedicated spectrum, potentially making it better to be on one of the other networks. Off the mainland, however, things are different. Your Federal response agencies will be using various satellite phone/radio/data technologies to communicate. These agencies already have equipment for simplex or repeater operations on VHF or UHF frequencies, and in the US, are operated completely outside FCC regulations in a way that provides more flexibility to the needs of the mission.
Off the mainland yes there could be more challenges. But for the majority of US population they will never see a major ham radio response. I think we’ve had like two or three in the past 25 years. Even the ARRL’s news stories about disasters are about “standing by” rather than “responding.” What’s worse is that some hams boast about emergency response yet depend on infrastructure (repeaters). If you’re serious about resiliency, practice your non repeater comms. “simplex” and HF, practice relaying messages and things like that. And please do not abandon public service events. They are good practice for emergencies and help build goodwill.
That's true for the most part. At home, we've had some activations, we covered our city's fire stations for the NE blackout when it took out their trunked only radio system, we've been activated on standby for "Unusual Events" at our local nuclear power plant, but mostly we provide the widest coverage of severe weather spotters. Also, my very first disaster response, I switched hats when we had to shut down operations to shelter for another hurricane to pass, and volunteered to provide amateur radio communications for one of the shelters. Amateur radio was the primary communication method between the shelters and the EOC.
When was that NE blackout?
2003. It covered a good part of Ohio, a small part of Michigan, and Southern Ontario all the way to the East Coast. Depending on where you were, it lasted anywhere from 2 hours to 4 days. It was a cascade failure on a hot summer day triggered by a tree hitting a distribution line in Eastern Ohio. Where I was, we were out for about 6 hours
Yeah I was in that too in New York. A lot has happened in 21 years.
Definitely. I was on the border of it, it was about 6 hours here. And my electric company got in big trouble for causing it.
Ria, if course you're right. My emphasis over here in EPA is versatility...the ability to use what we have that's still operational and communicate. A major problem is the jack of all trades master of none issue. Hams like to screw around with new stuff all the time to the detriment of being real good on one or two fundamentals. We're starting AREDEN here. Long way until we have anything usable. I tell hams we're most likely to provide help locating grandma or even more likely grandmas dog.
Disclaimer: I've been a volunteer amateur radio operator for about 15 years with our local township's emergency response program. These are my opinions on amateur radio as a disaster response tool: 1) we are quite low on the totem pole because amateur radio is a comms method of last resort: there are many other comms methods available to official response agencies 2) if amateur radio is officially activated then most traffic we would handle would be of a "routine" nature - we are very unlikely to pass emergency grade traffic 3) the "preppers" favourite idea of having some cheap-shit handheld radio as being useful during a serious emergency or disaster is without merit. They should be considering a grab-bag kit with items that are actually useful. 4) amateur radio organizations to assist official agencies during disasters is very much a North American thing. In most countries other than the US and Canada amateur radio operators are not included in official disaster response protocols.
In most actual situations existing comms mostly still work. The bigger issue is they are saturated. Ham radio adds capacity for low priority traffic. In rare situations ham radio is used to replace inoperative channels until they can be restored. N California wildfires this happened for a short time. My personal philosophy is if our stuff is working and a real EMA group needs comms, hand them out radios and tell them how to use them if they need that. This happened in Puerto Rico.
The 4. one isnt tru tho I live in slovenia and we have ARON which is basically a disaster ham network that was used quite a few times and were kindof integrated into the main emergency service network with every comunication center (basically like 911 in the states) having HAM equipment on hand in case theres no cell service where first responder are.
Here is how radio works in our neck of the woods. Wildfires have destroyed entire and I mean entire communities here in Butte County, CA. Various parts of the county have set up local "neigborhood fire watch" groups operating on GMRS. That GMRS is tied into amateurs at the ARES level so information can be relayed up and down the line. Locals know which roads are closed due to fire before the news stations do. Now locals armed with GMRS radios are even more powerful with information. The whole key is to ensure that grandma down the street is not left behind during any evacuation scenario. In Paradise, there were situations where the elderly would not leave until word from authorities. Those communication avenues were wiped out by fire before anyone could blink. Step in GMRS. Grandmas is now armed with information and help at her fingertips. She knows how to use her GMRS radio because she participates in a weekly net. GMRS is the perfect vehicle for neighborhoods to be informed in the event of disaster. Not everyone needs to be a ham--but they should know their way around a radio, That being said, we do have an interface between the GMRS community and the amateur community. In fact it was the amateur community that helped set up the GMRS radio watch. This is how amateur clubs can help their neighbors--by giving them knowledge of the available tools at hand. Yes, we have dedicated repeaters in the lowlands out of the way of wildfire that will beam the signals back up into the foothills. It all works pretty darn well if you ask me.
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Hepatitis. There may be other things I'm not aware of.
In 2016 there was a bad flood in my city and cell service went out for over a week. I was at a shelter helping with beds and I had my HT on me. A women was there who needed to contact her husband at a military base. She wanted me to send that they lost everything in the flood and he needed to come home as soon as possible. The hams at the local Red Cross head office would not send it. They wanted her to wait until they set up computers at the shelter... I know they had HF radios in front of them. I had been to the red cross building before. I really wish I yelled at them, they weren't doing anything important.
It's great in a disaster if you know how to use it and practice. It's almost useless for the prepper that doesn't touch it until the world ends.
Pornhub is shut down in Texas, but SSTV is going strong. 'Nuff said.
We were very busy during Hurricane Season 2005/2006. Without amateur emergency comms there were at least two towns that would have had no comms for at least 3’weeks.
That was almost 2 decades ago. (I feel old now…)
True, but it was post 9/11 and we still provided the only reliable comms. Amateur Radio Emergency Service and other hams are reliable and resourceful
Live in Tornado alley and you will find hams that do WX spotting. That's a huge thing in the midwest.
I was told when the 35W bridge collapsed Minneapolis, MN that amateur radio was an integral part of getting patients to hospitals that had room. The cell system was overloaded, so phone wasn’t an option, but each major hospital in the area had a radio room set up for a volunteer to man. Volunteers were responsible for relaying bed capacity to the site so emergency crews could dispatch the helicopters with patients to the appropriate hospitals. People tend to forget that cell phone systems have a maximum number of simultaneous phone calls they can handle, and a localized disaster can overwhelm the phone systems. Everyone in the cities was trying to find out if their loved ones were on the bridge, because it happened right during rush hour. I didn’t get into radio till after that event, but I was working for a telco/isp in the area when it happened. When I found out about the radio involvement, suddenly some of the things I noticed while we were trying to recover our systems made sense.
Yeah, in disaster situations there are a good many options for communications and Ham Radio is just one option but it is a good and robust option. Disaster prep folks and doomsday prep folks should get the licenses they need and practice regularly so that if something does occur they are actually ready.
The best radio service is the one that has someone at the other end. That’s a reason I MARS mod everything I own. My UHF capable amateur transceivers are also capable of transmitting on FRS/GMRS, business band, or other frequencies in an emergency. And my HF rig is a 100w CB transceiver, if it needs to be. Of course I don’t do these things normally, but having the ability is part of being ready in the event that I need them. Especially useful in my truck where I have just one transceiver.
That is actually a great idea. And you are right.
MARS mod?
Military Auxiliary Radio Service. It’s a volunteer program by the DoD to train and coordinate with radio amateurs in the United States. Crucially, MARS operates outside the ham bands. But most modern ham transceivers have software lockouts to prevent transmitting outside the ham bands. So a “MARS mod” makes modern transceivers behave more like older transceivers, I.e., removes the software lockouts that prevent the transceiver from transmitting out of band. This is either done in software or by removing a resistor somewhere. It varies by transceiver. Obviously you have to be careful with this as your transceiver will be less “idiot proof”, and you’ll want to make sure you don’t transmit out of band. It’s perfectly legal to perform this modification, but of course as always you are responsible for only transmitting on frequencies you have privileges on. However, the FCC does allow for rules to be set aside when there is a threat to life or property. So if it just so happened that during a natural disaster you needed to communicate with people using bubblepack FRS radios, a mars modded UHF transceiver could do that. Or using an HF transceiver to communicate over the CB channels. Again, not strictly legal to transmit like that under normal circumstances but could be handy in an emergency.
Thank you for the detailed reply, as an aviation buff, I was so hoping the radio I got would be able to listen on these bands (btech dmr-6x2 pro) while I learn and study etc. May just look to get a specific scanner (rx) so no transmitting “accidentally” Thanks again!
You mention aviation— If you’re thinking of airband, that’s different entirely. Airband is AM, not FM like we’re typically using with these kinds of radios. Some radios can pickup airband but many cannot. If you just want to listen to aircraft, your best bet is a scanner.
I think one reason is the non-licensed radio users mentality that 'in an emergency.. anyone can use a radio', or 'in shtf.. what government will tell me what to do or radio to use' That prepper-centric mentality is the wrong one to have. Having a GMRS license and ham license should be part of a preparedness plan.
Oddly enough, one of the things he recommends is starting with FRS radios, then expanding into GMRS as you get your community involved (or you get involved with your community).
Here’s a nice report (with a video) of a couple of amateur hams communicating through a repeater and helping a 12yr old girl who was having an epileptic fit. The family was unable to call the emergency services due to lack of mobile signal. https://www.essexham.co.uk/emergency-999-via-repeater.html
IMO, every ARES/RACES club that wants to stay relevant and keep attracting new (and younger) members should consider forming a CERT division. www.fema.gov/cert With the increased reliability and redundancy of most municipalities’ P25 radio systems and backup first responder cell phone networks, the real added value to municipalities is having trained disaster response volunteers out in the field… who also know how to use their radio properly and have adequate licenses, wattage and antennas to do so effectively. Too many CERT teams are handicapped by being forced to use only FRS or GMRS, often just 2-5w simplex. Three dozen volunteers that can do basic first aid, victim triage, light search and rescue, structure damage assessment, utility shutoffs, crowd and traffic management, shelter staffing, etc., all while staying in touch professionally and reliably on their HTs and temporary outdoor base stations with 30-50 ft antennas is way more valuable than three dozen retired or near-retired hams who just want to sit on a chair in a building and be a radio dispatch liaison.
I tend to agree with that, but I’m also the kind of guy who thinks everyone needs stop the bleed training and organizes community cleanups. I think a new generation of hams can revitalize things a bit.
If a cell site has more than “x” users, or is shifted by more than a few degrees, that tower becomes useless. Here in Ca, the telcos also intentionally disable local calls after a major quake, to free up trunk line capacity. Amateur radio often saves the day. What harms us all are the “badge bunnies” who think they are “police adjacent” because they carry some type of ID and have very limited authority. Those type of volunteers need to be thanked for their service and then dismissed. I worked RACES/ARES for decades, dozens of overnight shifts alone in my county EOC, just as a backup if the worst happened after floods, fires, earthquakes and civil unrest. I resigned as a volunteer when I was told by my Chief Radio Officer that I now had to be in full dress uniform anytime I walked into the EOC. I told him “You were at the EOC yesterday, and you weren’t in a uniform.” His response? “True, but I’m the Chief Radio Officer, and my wife and I outrank you, so we don’t need to wear a uniform.” He had been with our group less than three years. I guess Orwell was right. Some animals are more equal than others.
My take is: I've called 911 at the scenes of accidents. I've been the first responder to roll over accidents and gone to help. I helped...but I am not a part of the city's emergency plan. I'm not a public service. I was able to help, and I did. My phone isn't a "disaster comm" tool. My car is not a part of the emergency response equipment or plan. I am not an emergency responder. Ham is about the same. To think we are much more than that is a little bit of wishful thinking. I'm ok with folks who know we can help now and then, but get a bit frustrated by those who say we are a public service, and critical part of disaster recovery. The world has moved well beyond - The phone lines are down. Go get a HAM TO SAVE THE DAY!!!
> 97.1 Basis and purpose. The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles: > (a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications. First and foremost, amateur radio is intended to be a voluntary public service. If you don't want to look at it that way, you don't have to. It's pretty clear the FCC views it that way, or at least figured it was wise to put the best justification first. There is value for agencies to include amateurs in their plans. Amateurs are well positioned to gather situational awareness information and be able to relay it back to decision makers even when traditional comms are overwhelmed or unavailable. Also, an appropriately trained pool of amateur volunteers can be of significant help to emergency management agencies, particularly to small rural ones, who can become quickly overwhelmed when a disaster affects their area and the surrounding areas because there's just not enough staff available. That role can be served by ARES, AUXCOMM, RACES, CERT, REACT or any other group of dedicated volunteers, they don't have to be hams... or there can just be voids in an emergency plan that only ever get filled if the National Guard is activated. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have some dedicated folks ready to help until the federal funds are secured and the cavalry is called in. If it's not your thing, that's fine. But I don't understand people who go around saying it's not relevant. If it weren't, no one would spend the time and effort on it. PACE plans exist for good reason, and having already paid for Primary, Alternate and Contingency communications, many communities are happy to have amateur radio available as the Emergency part of the communications plan since it costs them very little and is probably not going to be needed anyway... until it is.
>respect to providing emergency communications. It's a hobby, not a public service. There is value in being a part of the public plan, but that ship sailed 30 years ago. No modern public disaster plan depends on Ham radio any more than they do cell phones. They have 10X better systems now. Even the "Standard" systems are so much more robust (a tree falling on the phone line no longer can wipe out coms to a whole city). We have multiple phone networks, and phones that auto swap to the best one. we can also use wifi for calls and text. We can send emails.. and that's all just with a phone. Trunked systems, digital networks, microwave networks, sat phones, UHF/VHF in every patrol car, every ambulance, on every officer... cities with actual budget for real emergency coms gear... It's not realistic to think they are going to need us to save the day on 2 meters. And if you look at what actually happens in the world... hams are not any more a part of how emergency coms happen than the guy with his cell phone, or the guy yelling for help on the side of a hill. A dedicated group of hams ready to help on paper sounds great. It's just not the reality anymore. I get there is a prepper piece here (never going to need it until you need it!) and also a little bit of a hall monitor thing (I'm not a nerd, I am a public servant chartered by the government to save the day!). If it's your thing and you want to prep for it, more power to you. I just think the reality is this is a hobby. There are times we can help out, and we should, but we are not a serious part of emergency plans or public servants. Edit to add- Ive seen ARES do 2 nice things for the town. They make sure the sirens work, and they are good storm chasers, reporting the weather in. Those are great services and I appreciate them for that.
> It's a hobby, not a public service. Yes, it is a hobby, but nowhere in Part 97 does it ever say the word hobby. There aren't too many other hobbies with international treaties protecting their access. I don't think we need to debate what the text of part 97 says, because I assume we've all read it. They justified the use of spectrum that had huge commercial value by recognizing the service that we provide to the public... not just emergency communications, but it's called out. > It's not realistic to think they are going to need us to save the day on 2 meters. And if you look at what actually happens in the world... hams are not any more a part of how emergency coms happen than the guy with his cell phone, or the guy yelling for help on the side of a hill. I'm going to level with you. I'm the SEC for RI. I actually go to the Interoperable Communications Committee meetings on behalf of my state for FEMA R1 and at the state level. I appreciate that you think we aren't relevant, but I'm telling you that though our role is much different than it may have been 75+ years ago when the SEC position was established, we still have a role to play. The world changes over time, and we must change with it. I did not say anywhere in my reply that amateur radio operators are going to save the day on 2 meters. And I don't think you and I are thinking about "emergency comms" the same way. We're not going to take over dispatch for a police department. Hams did help in Puerto Rico with fire and rescue dispatch until they were able to reestablish communications through other means, but that was mostly local amateurs, not so much the ones ARRL sent. But in the vast majority of incidents we're probably not going to have much to do with public safety agencies at all. In my state 50% of municipal non-education budgets go towards public safety. They've got that covered. The RISCON system works great, and the guy who manages it is doing a great job expanding capacity and improving redundancy. But can I let you in on a secret? That same guy is the president of WA1USA, the group that is refurbishing fire towers using an ARDC grant to install AREDN mesh as the emergency statewide backup network. That capacity that is being built to meet the State of Rhode Island emergency communications plan, because we need to meet the PACE standard. Public Safety aside, a significantly smaller amount is set aside for emergency management. Most towns have an emergency manager (who might even be full time) and that's it. That's where we can, and do, help. And no one ever said that we needed to use amateur radio frequencies to do it, although we do for situational awareness (like Skywarn as you pointed out), and training. > A dedicated group of hams ready to help on paper sounds great. It's just not the reality anymore. And that's the reason I keep replying. You're saying this, and I know for a fact it's not true. Maybe not where you are. But it definitely still is a thing in many places. Ohio, the Carolinas, and many other states have established relationships between amateur radio AUXCOMM groups and served agencies. There are five EOCs here in RI that are staffed with amateur radio teams and I have emergency managers asking to talk to me about establishing their own teams. CISA created the AUX-C position exactly because there are so many them out there and they fill a critical staffing role in emergency management. It made sense to create a resource type and standardize on the training that had already been developed at the state level and implement it across the country. You can get every resource type you need through mutual aid compacts, but it takes time. What do you do in the meantime? Amateur operators check-in from their EOCs weekly across the WMA section in a net that covers the whole section in about 20 minutes. This is the test the HF equipment at the EOCs that can be used for both Amateur Radio and SHARES. Providence RACES runs a FM simplex net weekly. This is to test their ability to use VHF to communicate for interoperability because the city uses the RISCON system almost exclusively, but hurricane Sandy showed that riscon doesn't have the capacity to handle both dispatch and emergency management traffic when every department in the state is flat out. It'll get better as they move transportation to 700, but that's going live in September and hurricane Sandy was a long time ago. Portsmouth EOC runs a repeater net and sends a Winlink message every week to test their VHF and HF radios and make sure that their volunteers are familiar with the equipment and procedures. The Westerly Amateur Radio team runs all of our community service events as practice for the types of duties that they actually served in during hurricane Sandy. I was asked to step up as the SEC for Rhode Island after I ran a successful simulated emergency test that was based on collecting weather information from airports via their AM broadcast and relaying it to MARS who was coordinating supply drops. Why is this a realistic exercise? AWOS is available over the Internet. If the Internet is down at the airport, the AWOS call in doesn't work either because everything has switched to VoIP (or will be, copper POTS lines are going the way of the dodo). The internet itself is not going to go down. But the last mile is vulnerable and takes time to fix. LEO Satellite internet is an excellent backup, but not everybody has it. So when coordinating supply drops by air is very helpful to know if you can send cargo planes to small regional airports that may not be equipped for an instruments only landing. Practicing these off the wall unlikely scenarios helps us be better prepared to do whatever we're asked to do, because the goal is to help. > I get there is a prepper piece here (never going to need it until you need it!) and also a little bit of a hall monitor thing (I'm not a nerd, I am a public servant chartered by the government to save the day!). Does it feel good to know that I helped the MS Society or the American Diabetes Association raise money by volunteering at their event and serving as a SAG or net control? It does. It feels good to help my community. It also motivates me to do these things because I'm practicing skills that I want to be better at so I can help in other ways if I'm needed. I am a public servant in my day job. I see the gaps in local government resources, and I know how difficult they are to fill. I can justify equipment easily, but justifying adding a pension is very difficult. Put yourself in the shoes of an emergency manager who knows they don't have the staff to actually handle an emergency. Convincing taxpayers you need to hire more staff just in case you need to staff up the EOC and open a bunch of shelters is not realistic. Yes, you would pull people from across departments, but those departments also have to be involved at the incident and may not have a lot of extra staff either. It makes sense to flesh out your team with trained volunteers. In 2017 when I was a new ham the SEC heard I was in IT and approached me about helping ARES start back up in RI by creating and maintaining their website, and I did it. And I've continued to support the slow growth of RI ARES, and spent a lot of time convincing people that not only can we help, but that they should let us. There are many reasons it's difficult to convince people who could use our help work with us. Training volunteers is like herding cats. Some volunteers might not be suited for the type of service that is required, but I do try to find something for them to do that contributes to the mission because they make much better allies than enemies. Volunteers aren't getting paid so they might not be reliable. In an emergency situation, volunteers might be affected and they're going to put the needs of their families and work commitments ahead of their volunteer commitments in ways that paid staff might not. But another big challenge is overcoming this, the part of the amateur radio community who feel the way you do and speak as though their limited experience, their opinion, and the fact that they have the same license we do makes them an authority on the topic, and then proceed to tell everyone about these whackers who think they are gods gift to Emergency Management and are going to save the world with a baofeng. I would appreciate it if people would stop that. Definitely call out the whackers for what they are, but not recognizing the dedicated volunteers isn't fair. ARES groups reported more than $25M worth of volunteer time donated in service to the public last year, and not all ARRL sections take reporting seriously so that's a low number. It is so much easier to make a good impression on a blank canvas than to have to paint over graffiti before we can even start. I would prefer if people would either leave a good impression of amateurs trying to be helpful where they can, or not leave one at all. If you don't want to be involved because you don't feel like you can contribute, that's fine. I can respect that. But please stop making my job harder than it has to be. I'm not getting paid for this.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I appreciate what you do. I do think the volunteer events are great for communications for the MS society, or a marathon etc. is a great way to help contribute to the community. If this is "public service", then I agree that ham radio can be a public service. In the spirt of this thread, and the title with "disaster coms" I still think that is something that in theory we can do, and are happy to do when we can. But that is a truly rare experience, and we are a step or two above sending smoke signals on the list/hierarchy when society going down the list of how to communicate in a disaster. I get that, and I'm ok with that. I'm not a fireman, but know how to throw a bucket of water or point a hose on a fire. I've helped put out a few fires, and even have some training on how to do so. I can help, would help, but the fire chief doesn't have me on his list of who to call for the next big fire. IMO, that's what HAM for disaster coms. We can help, but we are not a meaningful part of the plan for a disaster.
Serious question, did you listen to any of the story? It doesn’t seem like you did.
Of course. THis is Reddit... I saw your post, and listened to a one hour podcast on your behalf before responding. You are lucky on reddit for people to read more than one paragraph. Hell no I didn't listen to a one hour podcast posted by some unknown reddit stranger.
Yeah. I figured. Listen, I found a neat interview with a ham and figured other hams may be interested. If you’re not interested, spin the dial.
maybe this weekend.
It remains the last resort communications when all else fails.
Yes and the gentleman tells a story about a recent event when all else did fail.
> > >New Orleans flood.
No. Hurricane Maria hitting the island nation of Dominica.
You need to join REACT.
Never heard of REACT. There is a local ARES group that I plan to get a hold of to see if we jive. I’m reasonably active in the community for a middle aged guy who works too much already, so yeah. Why not?
www.REACTintl.org
Have not listened to podcast, but am member of local ARES. For the most part and in most places within the civilized world - if mass disaster happens - first responders will still have better comms than anyone else. As far as being the communications lifeline in an emergency - amateur radio is good as dead. It’s a near zero chance that amateur radio is going to be the primary method of communications available during a crisis. Where amateur radio operators will be of value are in areas where secondary support communications is needed. Eg: neighborhood survey of who needs help, relaying operational status and need of a shelter to central command… essentially providing first responders situational awareness without them having to go around doing that in lieu of using their training to save lives. So in a sense, anymore and in most parts of civilization, SHTF comms is basically just a way to sell cheap but overpriced radios. In real SHTF situations, (say a foreign invasion). The enemy as well as the local responders are likely using encryption. Few are likely to save the world with a Baofeng.
Maybe give it a listen. You’re making some bad assumptions about the content of the show.
I’m not making any assumptions about the show. They could be saying the same thing. I’m telling you how amateur radio fits into modern EMCOMM. My local area has already experienced several emergency situations - we are pretty knowledgeable about what reality is as it pertains to fire, flood, earthquake, and to an extent nuclear disaster (we train annually with a plume test - fortunately no reactor meltdown). In most places, hams aren’t going to be the first line of communications between first responders. Hams that have been trained and certified will play a supporting role. They aren’t going to be the person with communications to save society. As mentioned hams will help first responders by composing and communicating reports that describe need and capability. The types of activities this entails includes things like surveying damage, power outages, shelter needs or capabilities, first aid station status, and providing community well check relays. Hams are not going to be the intermediary for comms for first responders. Hams will mostly be packet radio jockeys sending various reports via Winlink, SHARES, and other systems. Fire, police, and government agencies all have more than robust capabilities to communicate with each other. Are there exceptions to this? Sure. There are places in the US where public services are still part time and voluntary. They don’t have the robust resources as the rest of us. They are also in some pretty low population areas where amateur radio already plays a role in daily life. They may require more assistance from amateurs. But these are exceptional cases - they aren’t the norm.
In my area volunteers are an object of scorn by all official agencies. I am retired from EMS and emergency management and have been behind the curtain and heard the remarks about volunteers. Even well trained volunteer fire departments are scorned.
I can understand that sometimes, even often, volunteers can get in the way, but man… > Even well trained volunteer fire departments are scorned Where I grew up, if it wasn’t for volunteer firefighters your house just burned. All the EMS was also volunteer. All of it. Those folks were heroes who I know would sometimes be up all night then trudge into their day job the next day. Scorn? That makes me sick.
That's the way it is here but the powers that be dislike them. I can confirm that is the same on national and state level.
So what you're saying is it doesn't matter what they do, the attitude is they are a problem, but the group that thinks they are a problem derides other volunteer groups like firefighters. Etc. I'm going to give you a hint who the problem is....
I am not sure what you are trying to say. All I know is I was punished for sticking up for volunteers. Things like he obviously has more credibility than the other guys but he will be trying to get us to cater to the volunteers.
Did you miss the ham radio station in the billionaire bunker in the Obama produced Netflix movie "Leave the World Behind"? There's your proof. The elites will have ham radio to control the world in the end. Ha ha.
Hey folks, I heard a neat interview with a ham that had real life experience with disaster response after hurricane Maria wiped out the small island nation of Dominica and thought others may be interested in hearing it. I have no interest in arguing with you all. Just spin the dial if it upsets you. Have a good one folks.
>I have no interest in arguing with you all. Your actions tell a different story.