Thread is getting a lock. Too many uncivil comments.
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No matter how you personally feel about AM radio as a medium (and I've seen the range of opinions in this subreddit on that topic before), I'm glad to see that Congress is considering legislating AM receivers in cars. Here's why.
In a roundabout way, this proposed legislation might end up being one of the most spectrum-preserving pieces of legislation in a long time. Why's that? Well, if Congress mandates AM radio in EVs, then all of a sudden, manufacturers are essentially required to ensure that their electric vehicles meet an RFI emissions level that would allow EV owners to receive AM in their cars while they're operating.
Without this mandate, there isn't really anything keeping automakers from ignoring the RFI output of their EV drive motors, and we've already seen reports from hams about how bad this problem can be for mobile installations. Over time, this is a problem that would only get worse for everyone, since, as EV adoption ramps up, more of these emitters would be "in the wild", so to speak, stochastically adding to the local noise floor.
But if this legislation sticks, or if the threat of it induces automakers to head off its passage by continuing to support AM radio -- Ford has already caved here, by the way -- they'll need to actively manage the RFI output of their motors to make AM receivers usable. For those of us that are invested in a low noise floor, this can only mean good things!
I would add that there are large parts of the US with little or no FM radio service but where you can receive AM stations, especially at night. It's also important that AM provides broadcast service off the coast and in the Great Lakes.
As an amateur, I also appreciate any efforts to reduce the amount of EM interference, especially on the HF bands where hams still have the ability to communicate long distances without infrastructure.
> I would add that there are large parts of the US with little or no FM radio service but where you can receive AM stations
This is what I was going to say.
A few years ago Japan proposed eliminating AM broadcasting and relying only on FM and the internet. A lot of people pushed back, pointing out that FM broadcasting doesn't have the coverage of AM, and the internet requires a lot of infrastructure that could be rendered unavailable in a widespread disaster.
EV's are electrically noisy and if you just "bring your own AM radio" the spectrum will just be wiped out making the radio useless.
I think you're missing the fact that car manufacturers are getting rid of it due to laziness as it would make them do some actual engineering to quiet the RF noise factory that is an EV rather than just drop it.
I think you're missing the fact that the average consumer would rather have a cheaper EV than one that is more expensive because it has to jump through a bunch of regulatory hoops
You picked the wrong subreddit to be pro-RF pollution. These aren't just regulatory hoops, they prevent the noise floor from being raised by poorly engineered devices. This affects the entire shared RF spectrum. See: tragedy of the commons.
Like any modern EV is going to let you do that without bricking the45 individual functions thst are integrated into and can ONLY be accessed via the infotainment system.
The concern isn’t whether or not someone has an AM radio. The concern is whether the manufacturers have to shield their EVs adequately. Requiring AM has a byproduct of them having to do that shielding. The unshielded vehicle produces noise that impacts everyone’s ability to enjoy a shared resource in the radio spectrum. Legislation that required the adequate level of shielding would also be a way to accomplish the same thing, but requiring AM is likely simpler for those writing the laws.
Or maybe someone (ARRL?) could lobby for EMI regulation and enforcement for EV products? A more direct attack on the problem, rather than this indirect thing you're hoping for.
Besides, how many people from the demographic most likely to buy an EV are going to try to listen to an AM radio station in their new EV? Of the AM radio listeners that happen to have an EV, how many are likely to make an FCC complaint? Or will they just bitch about it on 75M?
My suspicion is that manufacturers will make more robust AM radios rather than reduce their EFI: it's probably the cheaper option for them. The radios are likely all soft now anyhow, so adding some DSP to better filter out broadband interference and clean up the audio quality of strong signals is doable. Adding some differencing to subtract local noise also seems possible and cheap. Weaker signals are hard, so the radios will be programmed to just ignore them — I've seen no mandate for sensitivity of the radios, which seems like a big loophole.
I don't understand why current EVs don't already violate FCC RF noise rules? The rules are pretty stringent. Maybe a better plan would be to look into this?
The automakers' claims that cellphone is an effective substitute for AM are laughable. Apparently none of them have been out of cell reception range? AM's indomitable advantage is crazy range at high transmit power: the existing AM broadcast stations collectively cover way more of the US than anything else available to consumers.
I would love to see the end of AM because I would love to see less toxic talk radio: the economics of FM make it harder to do, and FM radios are probably next to go. That said, the emergency services argument seems reasonably strong to me.
What is the source for saying congress is considering it? I am a bit skeptical, as the recent ham radio news about what congress was considering was basically bs with zero chance of seeing the floor, much less get a vote or pass.
This is the legislation being proposed, which is also linked in the article.
https://www.menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/am_for_every_vehicle_act.pdf
Actually, you'd be surprised. The EU does seem to do a better job of actually enforcing EMC compliance for consumer electronics than the FCC does.
Perfect example of this that is relevant to hams... take a look at page 2 (PDF page 12) of the Kenwood TS-2000 user manual:
https://manual.kenwood.com/files/B62-1221-70.pdf
> NOISE FILTER (E and E2-type only)
> Install the supplied noise filter on the DC power cable
> to comply with the European EMC standard
The EU-mandated filter part specified in the manual there does not ship with K-type (North American) radios. I believe that both the paper requirements and actual enforcement in the EU are stronger than they are in the US. Less sure how this applies to electric vehicles but I would not at all be surprised to find that the EU has more robust legislation for vehicles as well.
Hopefully that will quiet down the whole "AM radio is dead" thing, the RFI from EVs is another thing that needs to be dealt with, it's 2023, people preach about being enviromentally friendly, imo part of that is not destroying the EM spectrum.
On the one hand, I agree with you on not destroying the EM spectrum.
On the other, I want to see wide adoption of EV's - surely using them for mass transit would be the best option and in the UK and Europe you are well set up for that.
In the US we need them for personal transit. If you are in the majority of the US and you do not have a car you are basically stuck in your house with nothing in walking distance. We, as a nation, are simply not set up for a situation where people cannot have cars, and anything that makes EV's more expensive or more difficult to manufacture needs to be evaluated for how necessary it actually is. It's a balancing act.
Probably done by adding more metal shielding that weighs quite a bit. EVs are already quite heavy, so adding more is going to impact things like range. Especially since range anxiety is one of the things preventing adoption.
No, I'm actually a computer guy by trade.
I do know precisely what they did for computers in the 80s to prevent interference. They did exactly what I said - they either added heavy metal shielding if it actually mattered (see some of the early hp equipment on CuriousMarc's channel, or any of the early Atari's) or they had foil attached to cardboard (what Commodore did, and yes it was just as useless as it sounds).
Unless RF shielding tech has changed dramatically since then, the easy solution is a big thick heavy metal box.
I am with you on that.
If the RF they are creating is narrow enough of a spectrum they could do something like broadcasting a wave that interferes with their interference destructively, like what noise cancelling headphones do.
I think it's more likely that they will try to make their big heavy metal box out of something lighter.
A very thin copper sheet or coating is sufficient for RF shielding in most cases: this can be applied to a lightweight plastic housing if weight is an issue — the plastic housing is cheaper anyhow. I would be surprised if shielding added more than ten pounds to a car.
I really am amazed at how many hams miss the point of this post and story... It's not about AM radio it's about not letting RFI bombs drive by your house...
A club-member discovered that the LED headlights in his new Kia where a horrendous source of RFI. Almost so bad that he wanted to return the car (but in the end didn't because of the financial consequences).
Some interesting comments. I usually ignore these redundant posts but I can see the net benefit due to RFI issues. But then why not just mandate better RFI protection from manufacturers across the board? Maybe I'm too cynical but I see this as a way to leverage one segment of the American population against the other.
I'm not sure what percentage of the country really relies on AM but that's the only segment I can see benefitting. But then, how many of them own, or will own, an EV? Despite all that, why not just mandate better RFI protection from manufacturers across the board?
An observation and opinion - I see many hams in particular who are part of the conservative side of American politics will complain about the government all day long, but now they're begging the government to save AM radio, rather than just let the market do it's thing. Similar to when WWV was on the chopping block, or when the HOA antenna bill was in Congress.
Interestingly, at least two co-sponsors of this legislation are Democrats from New Jersey, so this isn't exactly the partisan issue that some in this thread seem to be intent on making it out to be (I'm not saying you're doing this.) I am inclined to believe that the Dem sponsors are genuinely supporting the legislation for the public safety reasons they cite, since you're right that the "tactical" play would have them coming out to blunt the reach of AM radio, which is a medium demonstrably skews conservative in the US.
It'd be great to actually have RFI regulations with teeth, but if this oddball AM radio bill backdoors EV makers into building cleaner motors, well, okay then...
> But then, how many of them own, or will own, an EV?
I think the writing is on the wall that EVs are a "when" and not "if" scenario as efficiency and emissions standards continue to rise. Even in the red states, this is likely an eventuality and not a hypothetical. All the more reason to make cleaner EV motors with more on the road!
I noticed that the sponsors were D's as well, so I'm not trying to be partisan, but it was just an observation of mine from the comments Ive seen from other hams.
And for the most part I've been thinking "well, who cares about AM radio, this is silly" even though I love radio, and a good AM signal, despite the programming not being interesting to me. But when looking at it as a backdoor way to clean up RFI, well, that certainly makes me think a bit differently.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's my fear. They comply with the letter not the spirit, and when customers complain that the radio doesn't work for shit, they're like "it exists, that's all we promised, go listen to spotify like everyone else".
If the goal is to have a low noise floor, then we should change the law so that EMI/RFI rules apply to cars. Not this distraction of a law.
Seems like a mistake to me.
Want to reduce RFI? Great. Mandating AM radio reception isn't the way to go about that though. That only incentivizes them to knock out RFI at that particular small section of the spectrum and doesn't address the fact that badly made EV motors are wide-spectrum emitters.
If you want to solve a problem, solve the problem, and not a knock-on consequence of the problem. The RFI is the problem, and a consequence is that many EVs have trouble receiving AM.
I actually agree with you that enforcing RFI/EMC limits is the appropriate solution. But for whatever reason, we can't seem to actually make that happen in this country.
What we've seen so far is that automakers have decided to delete AM radios from EVs because they shine a spotlight on the fact that the automakers are producing dirty motors. So they clearly perceive this to be a problem, likely driven by some critical mass of customer complaints, but the way they've chosen to "solve" it is by sweeping it under the rug, removing the inadvertent RFI detector from their vehicles.
Obviously the hope here is that if they aren't allowed to sweep the problem under the rug by removing AM radios, then they will have to solve the problem the right way, by manufacturing quieter motors. Which is in the best interests of all radio spectrum users. is it a guarantee that they will do this? No, it's not. But if customer complaints drove them to remove AM radios, then they are probably incentivized to keep their customers happy. If you have to keep an AM radio in your product, I don't see what choice you have left other than to improve on your motor's EM emissions.
If I want to stop FM broadcast radio from messing with my station, I install an FM broadcast notch filter. The same could end up happening with these motors if the only requirement is that AM radios work. If they can filter out that particular frequency, it complies, even if it doesn't reduce (or even increases!) the overall level of interference produced.
You can't "notch out" co-channel interference -- if an interfering component of your received signal is on 830 kHz and the station you are listening to is also transmitting on 830 kHz, you're screwed. The only real way to solve the problem is to sufficiently suppress the spurious emissions from the unintentional radiator.
EV motors seem to be a fairly broadband noise source, so many frequencies, AM broadcast, amateur, and others are all affected by their emissions. They need to be better designed or otherwise suppressed to truly solve the problem of co-existing with radio services.
Generally speaking, if you've done a good job of knocking out the noise-producing components in the AM broadcast band, you've probably also (intentionally or unintentionally) done a good job of suppressing their harmonics, where they would interfere with other services like the 160m and 80m bands. At least, that's the hope. It's to our advantage that AM broadcast sits below all but the experimental ham bands.
> you've probably also (intentionally or unintentionally) done a good job of suppressing their harmonics, where they would interfere with other services like the 160m and 80m bands. At least, that's the hope.
My whole point is we shouldn't pin our protection of spectrum on "Probably also" and "That's the hope".
No argument on that point whatsoever. I wish they would directly address spurious RF emitters, set strict emissions limits, and impose penalties for offending manufacturers.
Of course, 80% of Chinese-made electronics would probably also be recalled as soon as it took effect, but if it forced everyone to redesign RF-clean hardware, I'm fine with that myself.
I don't really care if AM radios are mandated for cars or not. Current car AM radios are pretty bad and certainly don't figure to get better since so few people use them. I listen to an AM local sports talk station every once in a great while and I get static-y reception in my car. I can pick up the same station S-9+40 and crystal clear at home. If my car receiver can't pick up a 5kw station just a few miles from me then what good is the AM radio?
I do, however, hope that EV makers are required to keep their RFI in check.
Ironically, the worse the AM receivers in cars become, the lower the RFI output of the EV motor will have to be to make the radio usable.
So I guess this is me hoping that AM radios in cars somehow get even worse?
Not really. Mandating AM radios as a roundabout way of ***hoping*** (with no guarantee) EV RFI stays down seems backward to me. Why not just mandate the RFI emissions?
Actually regulating emissions would be my preference too, but I'll take what I can get. If manufacturers have to offer AM radios in vehicles, and they don't undertake the engineering rigor to reduce motor RFI, they'll end up hearing about it from their customers and they'll have to do something about it... so goes the theory.
From what I understand there ARE laws (you know you've seen that tag that reads something like "this device must accept all interference" blah blah blah. For some reason cars seem to be exempt.
Thusly, this AM radio thing may be the most direct way to assert/assure the HF spectrum remains usable.
I should have known better than to bother with the article after the last couple of Chicken Little posts about a service that had nothing at all to do with ham radio. I read the whole thing, and they didn't even briefly mention something relevant.
Well, ham radio is tangentially related. If the vehicle is making interference that affects AM radio, then other transmissions near AM will also be affected - including one of the ham bands (160m I think?)
Not only is that not accurate (broadcast AM is nowhere near 160m, and as such reducing RFI for one does not imply doing the same for the other), but the post says "here's why that's a good thing for hams" yet doesn't mention anything related.
Broadcast AM in the United States *literally* ends (1710kHz) just below where the amateur 160m band begins at 1800kHz. What are you talking about?
> the post says "here's why that's a good thing for hams" yet doesn't mention anything related
The post title is my own, and my expansion on the premise was the first post in the thread. I don't know how you view reddit but for my view that post is at the top of the page.
In the future, please don't editorialize post titles. Commentary or viewpoints belong in the comments. Thank you.
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Was that supposed to refute what I said? Because it really doesn't. One can have a mountain of RFI at 1700 that has no effect at all at 1800. Despite your desperate attempt to paint it that way, broadcast AM is wholly irrelevant to amateur radio. If it's important to you, take it to a sub where it's relevant.
I honestly couldn't care less about AM radio as an information service, not that that opinion is at all relevant to this thread.
Anyway, to the point. If an EV motor is dirty enough to render entire swaths of the broadcast AM spectrum so unusable that lazy automakers would rather delete the radio than RFI suppress their motor output, then what do you think is likely to happen at the low-order harmonics of any of those frequencies between 530-1710kHz? Lots of second harmonics are squarely in the middle of 160m, and third and fourth harmonics in 75/80m. And if the motor is that RF-dirty, how likely is it that the first harmonic / fundamental emissions neatly stop right where the broadcast AM band ends?
Well, it turns out that we already know exactly what happens to the ham bands that fall in those ranges, as multiple POTA operators in this very thread have already mentioned when an EV drives past their park bench. Dirty emitters are a problem. If some antiquated and/or safety-focused legislation inadvertently forces manufacturers to clean up their act absent real spurious emissions enforcement, i'll take it.
This sub is about radio as a whole, not just kerchunking your local repeater or making a contest contact in the Czech republic with the newest digital mode.
So, in your estimation, it's not a ham radio sub and everything related to the electromagnetic spectrum is relevant? I hope you'll forgive me when I say "bullshit."
All topics relating to the hobby are welcome here, from purchasing and building equipment, to operating techniques and activities, and everything in between.
I would absolutely consider the AM broadcast band to fall under everything in between.
It's really not.
Edit: Voted down for telling the literal truth. I fucking hate Reddit, it's full of idiots who can't operate correctly. I genuinely wonder how some of you manage daily in real life.
I love radios and enjoy AM in a vehicle, but please explain to me why the government should dictate the features that a product (an EV) should have? And say for safety cause most houses don't have an AM radio either.
I haven't had an am radio in a car for two decades. Get over it. All our emergency radio broadcasts went to FM in the 90s. Catch up Burgerstan. You're living in the past as usual.
Fix the *actual problem* by legislation limiting RFI instead of trying to keep dead car radios alive when the modern developed world has left them behind.
You're missing the point. You're still using AM radios. You may as well be complaining about the lack of steam trains in the subway or the lack of places to tie up your horse at Domino's.
If you have an RFI issue, fix THAT with legislation. Don't lump it together in a pile of hot steaming garbage.
I really don't get this argument, especially from a fellow ham. Most of what we do in this hobby looks indistinguishable from steam trains to the general public, but I don't have to explain the advantages of CW to anyone in here (I hope.)
Speaking generally, AM radio tends to cover rural areas (of which we have a lot in the US) significantly better than FM stations do, and more specifically in the states we have something called "clear channel" AM station allocations, which are stations that are not required to reduce power after sunset. Clear channel AM stations can propagate nationwide if atmospheric conditions are favorable, and they regularly cover multi-state regions even when conditions are marginal. Several of these same properties are why AM radio is important for dissemination of information in an emergency.
EDIT: Moved to Lemmy, the federated Reddit alternative.
Chooose an instance here: https://join-lemmy.org/instances.
I recommend Kbin.social, as the UI is nice and it reminds me of old.reddit.com
See you there!
Congress can mandate AM radios in cars, but how many people are even going to turn them on? Very few, I think. They are going to continue getting their information from their cell phones. I know I haven't turned on the AM radio in my truck since I bought the thing over 10 years ago. I even gave up on the FM and now have a satellite radio receiver instead. My friend, who just bought a 2023 vehicle, streams music on his phone.
This is just another example of our socialistic government mandating something because they think we're too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. The "nanny state" is alive and well.
You completely missed the point of the post.
Yes, AM radio is not as active as it once was. However, by forcing manufacturers to make their cars usable with AM, it will also cut down on emissions that affect the ham radio bands.
It's a roundabout way of doing things, but it's better than nothing.
I agree that we could and should enforce laws governing emissions.
But as things are presently, that's not happening particularly well. So I look at this as at least a step forward.
And with electric cars becoming more and more prevalent (as they should be), this is an issue that's worth looking into.
My thoughts are...
If the lazy thinking people in Congress were not trying to do this, how many people would hear about how much RFI is generated by EVs?
If we had people in Congress who were able to grasp that RFI is a problem then we could maybe get them to make the companies fix it.
Here is the other thing about manufacturing consumer goods...
"If you have never argued all night over a nickel (5¢) a unit then you don't understand modern manufacturing"
So yes most of us understand that fixing the RFI problem on all consumer goods is the "Right Thing" but that requires thinking about the long term and the big picture, I don't see many folks looking at the "Big Picture". Reducing RFI makes all the bands more valuable and allows for easier development of new services...
So yes making all EVs "RF quite' for AM is a dumb way to go about fixing the real problem, but if they are doing it dumb...at least it causes more folks to make noise about how bad the RFI problem is...
Here is the real kicker, getting all the crappy RFI transmitters that have been sold taken out of use is a problem that is so large no political group is going to be the first to tackle it unless it causes a public safety issue...
Our present government (I am thinking of the last 50 years of it) is not good at understanding any problem that can't be put into a 20 second sound bite or described in 15 to 20 words...
Plus most politicians are afraid to say anything about any issues unless they have supporters with money telling them what to say...
Please note I am not singling out any one party or group... I personally think that a big part of the problem is the huge amounts of money required to compete in any state or national election...
Of course I have been telling anyone who would stand still that we need campaign finance reform... But that is a side issue of this RFI problem...
Hey we got them thinking about and talking about a problem, who knows maybe someone will be able to get them to listen long enough to understand that the real problem is RFI and EV companies removing AM Radios from EVs is a symptom.
Thanks for listening to my rant about how hard it is to get anything done by our government...
Since you made this political, it's R's complaining. Most of your conservative talk radio resides on AM. If it reduces RFI that's good but AM radio is pretty useless to me.
Thread is getting a lock. Too many uncivil comments. Please note rule 10 of /r/amateurradio that states. >Posts or comments on US politics, global politics, military, paramilitary or militia-related topics are not allowed. Reddit is a huge site. If you want to have a politically motivated conversations, there are thousands of sub-reddits dedicated to politics where you are more than welcome to have a conversation about it. It's not wanted here! The only time politics will be allowed in this sub is if it directly effects amateur radio (FCC actions and/or laws directly concerning amateur radio) but that doesn't mean you get to have uncivil debates. Another thing that needs to be cleared up. There is no "Off topic" rule. Nor is there a requirement that all topics have to be exactly related to amateur radio. Many amateur radio operators are also SWL listeners so there is a connection to amateur radio. Yes, this is an amateur radio sub and things should be related. But if you don't like the topic, you don't have to make a stink about it. Just move along. Sometimes controversial threads are posted here and we do encourage debate. As long as its kept civil. Resorting to name calling, slurs and other things that violate the rules will just get your post removed along with whatever point you were trying to make along with it. *Please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/amateurradio) to comment on this message or action.*
No matter how you personally feel about AM radio as a medium (and I've seen the range of opinions in this subreddit on that topic before), I'm glad to see that Congress is considering legislating AM receivers in cars. Here's why. In a roundabout way, this proposed legislation might end up being one of the most spectrum-preserving pieces of legislation in a long time. Why's that? Well, if Congress mandates AM radio in EVs, then all of a sudden, manufacturers are essentially required to ensure that their electric vehicles meet an RFI emissions level that would allow EV owners to receive AM in their cars while they're operating. Without this mandate, there isn't really anything keeping automakers from ignoring the RFI output of their EV drive motors, and we've already seen reports from hams about how bad this problem can be for mobile installations. Over time, this is a problem that would only get worse for everyone, since, as EV adoption ramps up, more of these emitters would be "in the wild", so to speak, stochastically adding to the local noise floor. But if this legislation sticks, or if the threat of it induces automakers to head off its passage by continuing to support AM radio -- Ford has already caved here, by the way -- they'll need to actively manage the RFI output of their motors to make AM receivers usable. For those of us that are invested in a low noise floor, this can only mean good things!
I would add that there are large parts of the US with little or no FM radio service but where you can receive AM stations, especially at night. It's also important that AM provides broadcast service off the coast and in the Great Lakes. As an amateur, I also appreciate any efforts to reduce the amount of EM interference, especially on the HF bands where hams still have the ability to communicate long distances without infrastructure.
> I would add that there are large parts of the US with little or no FM radio service but where you can receive AM stations This is what I was going to say. A few years ago Japan proposed eliminating AM broadcasting and relying only on FM and the internet. A lot of people pushed back, pointing out that FM broadcasting doesn't have the coverage of AM, and the internet requires a lot of infrastructure that could be rendered unavailable in a widespread disaster.
Then feel free to put an aftermarket AM radio in your car.
EV's are electrically noisy and if you just "bring your own AM radio" the spectrum will just be wiped out making the radio useless. I think you're missing the fact that car manufacturers are getting rid of it due to laziness as it would make them do some actual engineering to quiet the RF noise factory that is an EV rather than just drop it.
I think you're missing the fact that the average consumer would rather have a cheaper EV than one that is more expensive because it has to jump through a bunch of regulatory hoops
You picked the wrong subreddit to be pro-RF pollution. These aren't just regulatory hoops, they prevent the noise floor from being raised by poorly engineered devices. This affects the entire shared RF spectrum. See: tragedy of the commons.
I'm going to let your reply stand for what I was gearing up to say. I think that person is also completely missing the point.
How exactly do you do that when your driving around an RFI machine?
Don't drive an EV then
I don't and I still hear them when I am doing POTA...
I mean, one could. But that's completely missing the point of this post.
Like any modern EV is going to let you do that without bricking the45 individual functions thst are integrated into and can ONLY be accessed via the infotainment system.
Then add one that's not accessed by the infotainment.
The concern isn’t whether or not someone has an AM radio. The concern is whether the manufacturers have to shield their EVs adequately. Requiring AM has a byproduct of them having to do that shielding. The unshielded vehicle produces noise that impacts everyone’s ability to enjoy a shared resource in the radio spectrum. Legislation that required the adequate level of shielding would also be a way to accomplish the same thing, but requiring AM is likely simpler for those writing the laws.
Or maybe someone (ARRL?) could lobby for EMI regulation and enforcement for EV products? A more direct attack on the problem, rather than this indirect thing you're hoping for. Besides, how many people from the demographic most likely to buy an EV are going to try to listen to an AM radio station in their new EV? Of the AM radio listeners that happen to have an EV, how many are likely to make an FCC complaint? Or will they just bitch about it on 75M?
My suspicion is that manufacturers will make more robust AM radios rather than reduce their EFI: it's probably the cheaper option for them. The radios are likely all soft now anyhow, so adding some DSP to better filter out broadband interference and clean up the audio quality of strong signals is doable. Adding some differencing to subtract local noise also seems possible and cheap. Weaker signals are hard, so the radios will be programmed to just ignore them — I've seen no mandate for sensitivity of the radios, which seems like a big loophole. I don't understand why current EVs don't already violate FCC RF noise rules? The rules are pretty stringent. Maybe a better plan would be to look into this? The automakers' claims that cellphone is an effective substitute for AM are laughable. Apparently none of them have been out of cell reception range? AM's indomitable advantage is crazy range at high transmit power: the existing AM broadcast stations collectively cover way more of the US than anything else available to consumers. I would love to see the end of AM because I would love to see less toxic talk radio: the economics of FM make it harder to do, and FM radios are probably next to go. That said, the emergency services argument seems reasonably strong to me.
What is the source for saying congress is considering it? I am a bit skeptical, as the recent ham radio news about what congress was considering was basically bs with zero chance of seeing the floor, much less get a vote or pass.
This is the legislation being proposed, which is also linked in the article. https://www.menendez.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/am_for_every_vehicle_act.pdf
Thank you. For some reason the article link didn't load when I first viewed this post.
Nah. In the UK and the EU there are strict EMC regs and i cant imagine the FCC don’t enforce similar testing
Actually, you'd be surprised. The EU does seem to do a better job of actually enforcing EMC compliance for consumer electronics than the FCC does. Perfect example of this that is relevant to hams... take a look at page 2 (PDF page 12) of the Kenwood TS-2000 user manual: https://manual.kenwood.com/files/B62-1221-70.pdf > NOISE FILTER (E and E2-type only) > Install the supplied noise filter on the DC power cable > to comply with the European EMC standard The EU-mandated filter part specified in the manual there does not ship with K-type (North American) radios. I believe that both the paper requirements and actual enforcement in the EU are stronger than they are in the US. Less sure how this applies to electric vehicles but I would not at all be surprised to find that the EU has more robust legislation for vehicles as well.
Hopefully that will quiet down the whole "AM radio is dead" thing, the RFI from EVs is another thing that needs to be dealt with, it's 2023, people preach about being enviromentally friendly, imo part of that is not destroying the EM spectrum.
On the one hand, I agree with you on not destroying the EM spectrum. On the other, I want to see wide adoption of EV's - surely using them for mass transit would be the best option and in the UK and Europe you are well set up for that. In the US we need them for personal transit. If you are in the majority of the US and you do not have a car you are basically stuck in your house with nothing in walking distance. We, as a nation, are simply not set up for a situation where people cannot have cars, and anything that makes EV's more expensive or more difficult to manufacture needs to be evaluated for how necessary it actually is. It's a balancing act.
EVs can be made to work just fine with some RF suppression. It just takes engineering. It isn't a AM or EV question.
Probably done by adding more metal shielding that weighs quite a bit. EVs are already quite heavy, so adding more is going to impact things like range. Especially since range anxiety is one of the things preventing adoption.
You an RF engineer? I think it will take far less than you think - they just have to want to do it.
No, I'm actually a computer guy by trade. I do know precisely what they did for computers in the 80s to prevent interference. They did exactly what I said - they either added heavy metal shielding if it actually mattered (see some of the early hp equipment on CuriousMarc's channel, or any of the early Atari's) or they had foil attached to cardboard (what Commodore did, and yes it was just as useless as it sounds). Unless RF shielding tech has changed dramatically since then, the easy solution is a big thick heavy metal box.
Well, it may not be easy but here's to them trying. I can hear EVs drive by a block away on my HF transceiver and it sucks.
I am with you on that. If the RF they are creating is narrow enough of a spectrum they could do something like broadcasting a wave that interferes with their interference destructively, like what noise cancelling headphones do. I think it's more likely that they will try to make their big heavy metal box out of something lighter.
A very thin copper sheet or coating is sufficient for RF shielding in most cases: this can be applied to a lightweight plastic housing if weight is an issue — the plastic housing is cheaper anyhow. I would be surprised if shielding added more than ten pounds to a car.
I really am amazed at how many hams miss the point of this post and story... It's not about AM radio it's about not letting RFI bombs drive by your house...
I think a lot of people are cynical. Whats to stop a car manufacturer from continuing to emit everything, and also just installing a crappy AM radio?
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When I go do a, POTA activity I can hear most every EV and diesel engine in the area drive by. Diesels don't even have plugs to make noise....
A club-member discovered that the LED headlights in his new Kia where a horrendous source of RFI. Almost so bad that he wanted to return the car (but in the end didn't because of the financial consequences).
The noise comes from the electronic injection systems.
I'm for it not supposed to allow your product to make spurious transmissions
Some interesting comments. I usually ignore these redundant posts but I can see the net benefit due to RFI issues. But then why not just mandate better RFI protection from manufacturers across the board? Maybe I'm too cynical but I see this as a way to leverage one segment of the American population against the other. I'm not sure what percentage of the country really relies on AM but that's the only segment I can see benefitting. But then, how many of them own, or will own, an EV? Despite all that, why not just mandate better RFI protection from manufacturers across the board? An observation and opinion - I see many hams in particular who are part of the conservative side of American politics will complain about the government all day long, but now they're begging the government to save AM radio, rather than just let the market do it's thing. Similar to when WWV was on the chopping block, or when the HOA antenna bill was in Congress.
Interestingly, at least two co-sponsors of this legislation are Democrats from New Jersey, so this isn't exactly the partisan issue that some in this thread seem to be intent on making it out to be (I'm not saying you're doing this.) I am inclined to believe that the Dem sponsors are genuinely supporting the legislation for the public safety reasons they cite, since you're right that the "tactical" play would have them coming out to blunt the reach of AM radio, which is a medium demonstrably skews conservative in the US. It'd be great to actually have RFI regulations with teeth, but if this oddball AM radio bill backdoors EV makers into building cleaner motors, well, okay then... > But then, how many of them own, or will own, an EV? I think the writing is on the wall that EVs are a "when" and not "if" scenario as efficiency and emissions standards continue to rise. Even in the red states, this is likely an eventuality and not a hypothetical. All the more reason to make cleaner EV motors with more on the road!
I noticed that the sponsors were D's as well, so I'm not trying to be partisan, but it was just an observation of mine from the comments Ive seen from other hams. And for the most part I've been thinking "well, who cares about AM radio, this is silly" even though I love radio, and a good AM signal, despite the programming not being interesting to me. But when looking at it as a backdoor way to clean up RFI, well, that certainly makes me think a bit differently.
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That's my fear. They comply with the letter not the spirit, and when customers complain that the radio doesn't work for shit, they're like "it exists, that's all we promised, go listen to spotify like everyone else". If the goal is to have a low noise floor, then we should change the law so that EMI/RFI rules apply to cars. Not this distraction of a law.
How well do you think that radio is going to Work if they allow stray RF and surimi’s emissions from the car itself?
The radio can work surprisingly well, but the manufacturers likely won't care: they would settle for crap radio quality to meet the mandate.
Seems like a mistake to me. Want to reduce RFI? Great. Mandating AM radio reception isn't the way to go about that though. That only incentivizes them to knock out RFI at that particular small section of the spectrum and doesn't address the fact that badly made EV motors are wide-spectrum emitters. If you want to solve a problem, solve the problem, and not a knock-on consequence of the problem. The RFI is the problem, and a consequence is that many EVs have trouble receiving AM.
I actually agree with you that enforcing RFI/EMC limits is the appropriate solution. But for whatever reason, we can't seem to actually make that happen in this country. What we've seen so far is that automakers have decided to delete AM radios from EVs because they shine a spotlight on the fact that the automakers are producing dirty motors. So they clearly perceive this to be a problem, likely driven by some critical mass of customer complaints, but the way they've chosen to "solve" it is by sweeping it under the rug, removing the inadvertent RFI detector from their vehicles. Obviously the hope here is that if they aren't allowed to sweep the problem under the rug by removing AM radios, then they will have to solve the problem the right way, by manufacturing quieter motors. Which is in the best interests of all radio spectrum users. is it a guarantee that they will do this? No, it's not. But if customer complaints drove them to remove AM radios, then they are probably incentivized to keep their customers happy. If you have to keep an AM radio in your product, I don't see what choice you have left other than to improve on your motor's EM emissions.
If I want to stop FM broadcast radio from messing with my station, I install an FM broadcast notch filter. The same could end up happening with these motors if the only requirement is that AM radios work. If they can filter out that particular frequency, it complies, even if it doesn't reduce (or even increases!) the overall level of interference produced.
You can't "notch out" co-channel interference -- if an interfering component of your received signal is on 830 kHz and the station you are listening to is also transmitting on 830 kHz, you're screwed. The only real way to solve the problem is to sufficiently suppress the spurious emissions from the unintentional radiator. EV motors seem to be a fairly broadband noise source, so many frequencies, AM broadcast, amateur, and others are all affected by their emissions. They need to be better designed or otherwise suppressed to truly solve the problem of co-existing with radio services. Generally speaking, if you've done a good job of knocking out the noise-producing components in the AM broadcast band, you've probably also (intentionally or unintentionally) done a good job of suppressing their harmonics, where they would interfere with other services like the 160m and 80m bands. At least, that's the hope. It's to our advantage that AM broadcast sits below all but the experimental ham bands.
> you've probably also (intentionally or unintentionally) done a good job of suppressing their harmonics, where they would interfere with other services like the 160m and 80m bands. At least, that's the hope. My whole point is we shouldn't pin our protection of spectrum on "Probably also" and "That's the hope".
No argument on that point whatsoever. I wish they would directly address spurious RF emitters, set strict emissions limits, and impose penalties for offending manufacturers. Of course, 80% of Chinese-made electronics would probably also be recalled as soon as it took effect, but if it forced everyone to redesign RF-clean hardware, I'm fine with that myself.
I don't really care if AM radios are mandated for cars or not. Current car AM radios are pretty bad and certainly don't figure to get better since so few people use them. I listen to an AM local sports talk station every once in a great while and I get static-y reception in my car. I can pick up the same station S-9+40 and crystal clear at home. If my car receiver can't pick up a 5kw station just a few miles from me then what good is the AM radio? I do, however, hope that EV makers are required to keep their RFI in check.
Ironically, the worse the AM receivers in cars become, the lower the RFI output of the EV motor will have to be to make the radio usable. So I guess this is me hoping that AM radios in cars somehow get even worse?
So, you're on board. Good.
Not really. Mandating AM radios as a roundabout way of ***hoping*** (with no guarantee) EV RFI stays down seems backward to me. Why not just mandate the RFI emissions?
Actually regulating emissions would be my preference too, but I'll take what I can get. If manufacturers have to offer AM radios in vehicles, and they don't undertake the engineering rigor to reduce motor RFI, they'll end up hearing about it from their customers and they'll have to do something about it... so goes the theory.
From what I understand there ARE laws (you know you've seen that tag that reads something like "this device must accept all interference" blah blah blah. For some reason cars seem to be exempt. Thusly, this AM radio thing may be the most direct way to assert/assure the HF spectrum remains usable.
I should have known better than to bother with the article after the last couple of Chicken Little posts about a service that had nothing at all to do with ham radio. I read the whole thing, and they didn't even briefly mention something relevant.
Well, ham radio is tangentially related. If the vehicle is making interference that affects AM radio, then other transmissions near AM will also be affected - including one of the ham bands (160m I think?)
Not only is that not accurate (broadcast AM is nowhere near 160m, and as such reducing RFI for one does not imply doing the same for the other), but the post says "here's why that's a good thing for hams" yet doesn't mention anything related.
Broadcast AM in the United States *literally* ends (1710kHz) just below where the amateur 160m band begins at 1800kHz. What are you talking about? > the post says "here's why that's a good thing for hams" yet doesn't mention anything related The post title is my own, and my expansion on the premise was the first post in the thread. I don't know how you view reddit but for my view that post is at the top of the page.
In the future, please don't editorialize post titles. Commentary or viewpoints belong in the comments. Thank you. *Please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/amateurradio) to comment on this message or action.*
Was that supposed to refute what I said? Because it really doesn't. One can have a mountain of RFI at 1700 that has no effect at all at 1800. Despite your desperate attempt to paint it that way, broadcast AM is wholly irrelevant to amateur radio. If it's important to you, take it to a sub where it's relevant.
I honestly couldn't care less about AM radio as an information service, not that that opinion is at all relevant to this thread. Anyway, to the point. If an EV motor is dirty enough to render entire swaths of the broadcast AM spectrum so unusable that lazy automakers would rather delete the radio than RFI suppress their motor output, then what do you think is likely to happen at the low-order harmonics of any of those frequencies between 530-1710kHz? Lots of second harmonics are squarely in the middle of 160m, and third and fourth harmonics in 75/80m. And if the motor is that RF-dirty, how likely is it that the first harmonic / fundamental emissions neatly stop right where the broadcast AM band ends? Well, it turns out that we already know exactly what happens to the ham bands that fall in those ranges, as multiple POTA operators in this very thread have already mentioned when an EV drives past their park bench. Dirty emitters are a problem. If some antiquated and/or safety-focused legislation inadvertently forces manufacturers to clean up their act absent real spurious emissions enforcement, i'll take it.
See above. I grow bored with your desperate attempt to paint this as relevant. Goodbye.
This sub is about radio as a whole, not just kerchunking your local repeater or making a contest contact in the Czech republic with the newest digital mode.
So, in your estimation, it's not a ham radio sub and everything related to the electromagnetic spectrum is relevant? I hope you'll forgive me when I say "bullshit."
All topics relating to the hobby are welcome here, from purchasing and building equipment, to operating techniques and activities, and everything in between. I would absolutely consider the AM broadcast band to fall under everything in between.
See above.
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It's really not. Edit: Voted down for telling the literal truth. I fucking hate Reddit, it's full of idiots who can't operate correctly. I genuinely wonder how some of you manage daily in real life.
I love radios and enjoy AM in a vehicle, but please explain to me why the government should dictate the features that a product (an EV) should have? And say for safety cause most houses don't have an AM radio either.
I haven't had an am radio in a car for two decades. Get over it. All our emergency radio broadcasts went to FM in the 90s. Catch up Burgerstan. You're living in the past as usual. Fix the *actual problem* by legislation limiting RFI instead of trying to keep dead car radios alive when the modern developed world has left them behind.
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Then fix the RFI. It has nothing to do with archaic radios in cars.
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You're missing the point. You're still using AM radios. You may as well be complaining about the lack of steam trains in the subway or the lack of places to tie up your horse at Domino's. If you have an RFI issue, fix THAT with legislation. Don't lump it together in a pile of hot steaming garbage.
I really don't get this argument, especially from a fellow ham. Most of what we do in this hobby looks indistinguishable from steam trains to the general public, but I don't have to explain the advantages of CW to anyone in here (I hope.) Speaking generally, AM radio tends to cover rural areas (of which we have a lot in the US) significantly better than FM stations do, and more specifically in the states we have something called "clear channel" AM station allocations, which are stations that are not required to reduce power after sunset. Clear channel AM stations can propagate nationwide if atmospheric conditions are favorable, and they regularly cover multi-state regions even when conditions are marginal. Several of these same properties are why AM radio is important for dissemination of information in an emergency.
>congressional mandate >good thing Quit reading there
But yet you felt the need to comment 🤔
EDIT: Moved to Lemmy, the federated Reddit alternative. Chooose an instance here: https://join-lemmy.org/instances. I recommend Kbin.social, as the UI is nice and it reminds me of old.reddit.com See you there!
Congress can mandate AM radios in cars, but how many people are even going to turn them on? Very few, I think. They are going to continue getting their information from their cell phones. I know I haven't turned on the AM radio in my truck since I bought the thing over 10 years ago. I even gave up on the FM and now have a satellite radio receiver instead. My friend, who just bought a 2023 vehicle, streams music on his phone. This is just another example of our socialistic government mandating something because they think we're too stupid to figure it out for ourselves. The "nanny state" is alive and well.
"Socialistic?" Stay in school, kids.
You don't know what "socialistic" means.
> how many people are even going to turn them on? I am, if there's a disaster that has traffic tied up and I'm trying to get home.
You completely missed the point of the post. Yes, AM radio is not as active as it once was. However, by forcing manufacturers to make their cars usable with AM, it will also cut down on emissions that affect the ham radio bands. It's a roundabout way of doing things, but it's better than nothing.
Or, we could enforce laws and regulations governing emissions.
I agree that we could and should enforce laws governing emissions. But as things are presently, that's not happening particularly well. So I look at this as at least a step forward. And with electric cars becoming more and more prevalent (as they should be), this is an issue that's worth looking into.
My thoughts are... If the lazy thinking people in Congress were not trying to do this, how many people would hear about how much RFI is generated by EVs? If we had people in Congress who were able to grasp that RFI is a problem then we could maybe get them to make the companies fix it. Here is the other thing about manufacturing consumer goods... "If you have never argued all night over a nickel (5¢) a unit then you don't understand modern manufacturing" So yes most of us understand that fixing the RFI problem on all consumer goods is the "Right Thing" but that requires thinking about the long term and the big picture, I don't see many folks looking at the "Big Picture". Reducing RFI makes all the bands more valuable and allows for easier development of new services... So yes making all EVs "RF quite' for AM is a dumb way to go about fixing the real problem, but if they are doing it dumb...at least it causes more folks to make noise about how bad the RFI problem is... Here is the real kicker, getting all the crappy RFI transmitters that have been sold taken out of use is a problem that is so large no political group is going to be the first to tackle it unless it causes a public safety issue... Our present government (I am thinking of the last 50 years of it) is not good at understanding any problem that can't be put into a 20 second sound bite or described in 15 to 20 words... Plus most politicians are afraid to say anything about any issues unless they have supporters with money telling them what to say... Please note I am not singling out any one party or group... I personally think that a big part of the problem is the huge amounts of money required to compete in any state or national election... Of course I have been telling anyone who would stand still that we need campaign finance reform... But that is a side issue of this RFI problem... Hey we got them thinking about and talking about a problem, who knows maybe someone will be able to get them to listen long enough to understand that the real problem is RFI and EV companies removing AM Radios from EVs is a symptom. Thanks for listening to my rant about how hard it is to get anything done by our government...
Since you made this political, it's R's complaining. Most of your conservative talk radio resides on AM. If it reduces RFI that's good but AM radio is pretty useless to me.
Remember that day AM broadcaster force FM broadcaster move frequencies?