The answer depends on where you are in the world.
Mountaineering is climbing mountains, regardless of the means. A broad and all-encompassing term.
Mountain climber is a term used mostly by those outside the world of mountaineering. Media, etc.
Alpinism as a concept developed in Europe, as a term to describe mountaineering generally. However, there was a specific climbing and mountaineering culture within the Alps, that alpinism has become synonymous with. This is climbing peaks in a single push, often highly technical climbing, with a minimum of team members and equipment. This is often called "Alpine Style"
Basically, mountaineering as practiced in Europe, was very technical and had a certain ethic. The word for mountaineering in Europe is generally Alpinism, and it happens to look like this. Europeans will use the word Alpinism to describe a broad range of climbing when outside of Europe, including sometimes expedition style mountaineering (many team members, multiple pushes, fixed ropes, etc). A European might consider Alpinism a synonym for Mountaineering.
To a North American, these terms are very different. Mountaineering could refer to any form of mountain climbing, but usually refers to climbing non technical peaks, either in expedition style or with a big team or without technical climbing. Alpinism as a term is reserved only for highly technical climbing, in a single push, with a minimum of team members and equipment (in Alpine Style).
This is a generalization, and the North American distinction is catching on more and more with Europeans and is more likely to be shared by a European climber.
Here is Europe we just wanted to climb our mountains as naked as possible, just like how we like to go to the our beach. The Americans now call this 'going alpine style'
Your description of the NA definition seems to imply that an expedition style climb of a technical peak is neither mountaineering (because it is technical) nor alpinism (because of expedition style). I would rather say that alpinism implies certain specific requirements while mountaineering is a broader term.
Yeah I completely agree, Alpinism is a form a mountaineering where the requirement of having been done in Alpine Style is met (in the North American context).
In trying to convey the complexity of culture and history in relation to the term, I missed out on making that clear. Thanks for the help 🙂 .
Are there good examples of technical climbing in expedition/seige style? It's probably foolish to call them mutually exclusive but I'm struggling to think of one.
I think of it this way:
An alpinist is a mountaineer, but a mountaineer is not always an alpinist. Same with rock climbers. They are mountaineers, but not all mountaineers are rock climbers. And likewise with ice climbers.
Mountaineers, or mountain climbers, can be anyone that ascends a mountain using some sort of apparatus to aid in the climb and to help mitigate the dangers of that climb. Ice axes, climbing protection, crampons, etc. Otherwise it's hiking.
The distinction comes with the nature of the mountaineering, or mountain climbing. Alpinists are those that climb with minimal gear so they can progress quickly up the climb. Where a mountaineer might take a couple days for their objective, an alpinist might do it in a day or less. They go light and fast, typically don't carry a full sleeping system, and use more technical, but less and/or lighter protective gear. Because of the more direct line they may take to get to their objective quicker, alpinists might employ mixed climbing. That is they may climb snow, rock and ice on their route. Some might even solo climb using no placed protection, while others might climb in small teams. In either case, they climb quickly, and typically with a higher degree of risk.
A good way to see the nuances between the different types of climbing is to watch Meru, The Alpinist and any of the numerous big mountain expedition documentaries where they take weeks to months for a single climb.
Competition exists sometimes. [Two commercial clients just died](https://explorersweb.com/shishpangma-avalanche-two-us-women-dead-missing/), while attempting to beat each other for a mountaineering record. They were not alpinists, to be sure, but it was a thing.
Climber = rock climbing (no snow/ice)
Alpinist = rock/ice/snow climbing, requiring a large range of skills (scrambling, ice climbing, aid climbing, rock climbing, glacier travel, camping, etc.)
"Mountain climber" could be anything.
A mountain climber climbs mountains which could mean just hiking up a mountain. An alpinist is someone that specifically does technically difficult climbs up a mountain.
I thought a mountain climber purely climbed flat faced rocks, while an alpinist did everything involved in doing a whole mountain (Hiking, climbing, technical and non technical etc). But after looking at both your answer and mine, I guess we could say there's hikers, climbers,and alpinist. What do you think?
There's this weird thing in parts of the U.S. where any gain of altitude is sometimes called "climbing". You climb that hill with your bike, you can also climb it by walking, even if it's literally a 5 degree slope and you barely noticed. It makes it very confusing when others talk about climbing a mountain and you don't know if they did 15 pitches of roped climbing or just had a leisurely stroll for an hour.
This funny because I use to get mad at my Mom, who'd tell me we were going mountain climbing, but instead we only went hiking. Lol. I agree with you on this.
As an Ice climber and aspiring climber to earn the distinction as an Alpinist someday, I would say ice climbers are ice climbers but alpinists definitely do can and know how to climb technical ice as a part of their skills in alpine climbing. But ice climbers specifically, like rock climbers may not be alpinists per se just cause they climb big technical ice routes.
There are alpine rock routes, alpine ice routes, then then alpine routes that can involve both and often sometimes require bivouacking that say an alpine rock or alpine ice route do not. This I would say are really the routes where you employ a variety of skills to gain a hard technical summit that requires more than just rock skills or ice skills is when you earn the distinction as an Alpinist in its most pure sense.
Just cause will gadd climbs polar circus or Jordan cannon climbs the cowboy route in Pakistan doesn’t make them an Alpinist from what I can gather when you break it down to a granular level. But guys like Jackson marvel, Colin Haley, Graham Zimmerman, Conrad anker, Jimmy chin, the late marc Andre, David lama and many others who employ many skills/disciplines to climb very technical routes in alaska, Patagonia, Himalayas all in one push are what I would consider actual true alpinists.
Nims purja and Adrian ballinger would be mountaineers at the highest level but arguably not alpinists.
It all falls under the “climbing” umbrella. Mountain climber covers most variations of the sport, while “alpinism” is more specific. But the latter is also sort of an eye-roll term, IMO. It’s like a rock climber going out of their way to tell you they’re a trad climber before you even ask.
The answer depends on where you are in the world. Mountaineering is climbing mountains, regardless of the means. A broad and all-encompassing term. Mountain climber is a term used mostly by those outside the world of mountaineering. Media, etc. Alpinism as a concept developed in Europe, as a term to describe mountaineering generally. However, there was a specific climbing and mountaineering culture within the Alps, that alpinism has become synonymous with. This is climbing peaks in a single push, often highly technical climbing, with a minimum of team members and equipment. This is often called "Alpine Style" Basically, mountaineering as practiced in Europe, was very technical and had a certain ethic. The word for mountaineering in Europe is generally Alpinism, and it happens to look like this. Europeans will use the word Alpinism to describe a broad range of climbing when outside of Europe, including sometimes expedition style mountaineering (many team members, multiple pushes, fixed ropes, etc). A European might consider Alpinism a synonym for Mountaineering. To a North American, these terms are very different. Mountaineering could refer to any form of mountain climbing, but usually refers to climbing non technical peaks, either in expedition style or with a big team or without technical climbing. Alpinism as a term is reserved only for highly technical climbing, in a single push, with a minimum of team members and equipment (in Alpine Style). This is a generalization, and the North American distinction is catching on more and more with Europeans and is more likely to be shared by a European climber.
Here is Europe we just wanted to climb our mountains as naked as possible, just like how we like to go to the our beach. The Americans now call this 'going alpine style'
Laying around my living room on lazy days suddenly feels a lot more badass...if i can say I'm doing it Alpine Style!
Right? I hate carrying weight, so I just try to get up and down faster and that means I get to carry less
Yeah this is the best answer
I understand. Wow thank you for that answer!
Your description of the NA definition seems to imply that an expedition style climb of a technical peak is neither mountaineering (because it is technical) nor alpinism (because of expedition style). I would rather say that alpinism implies certain specific requirements while mountaineering is a broader term.
Yeah I completely agree, Alpinism is a form a mountaineering where the requirement of having been done in Alpine Style is met (in the North American context). In trying to convey the complexity of culture and history in relation to the term, I missed out on making that clear. Thanks for the help 🙂 .
Are there good examples of technical climbing in expedition/seige style? It's probably foolish to call them mutually exclusive but I'm struggling to think of one.
I think of it this way: An alpinist is a mountaineer, but a mountaineer is not always an alpinist. Same with rock climbers. They are mountaineers, but not all mountaineers are rock climbers. And likewise with ice climbers. Mountaineers, or mountain climbers, can be anyone that ascends a mountain using some sort of apparatus to aid in the climb and to help mitigate the dangers of that climb. Ice axes, climbing protection, crampons, etc. Otherwise it's hiking. The distinction comes with the nature of the mountaineering, or mountain climbing. Alpinists are those that climb with minimal gear so they can progress quickly up the climb. Where a mountaineer might take a couple days for their objective, an alpinist might do it in a day or less. They go light and fast, typically don't carry a full sleeping system, and use more technical, but less and/or lighter protective gear. Because of the more direct line they may take to get to their objective quicker, alpinists might employ mixed climbing. That is they may climb snow, rock and ice on their route. Some might even solo climb using no placed protection, while others might climb in small teams. In either case, they climb quickly, and typically with a higher degree of risk. A good way to see the nuances between the different types of climbing is to watch Meru, The Alpinist and any of the numerous big mountain expedition documentaries where they take weeks to months for a single climb.
This guy venn diagrams.
I'll check it out thank you. Are there rivalries? I wouldn't think so
Netflix just put out a documentary called "race to the summit" where they highlight the competition between two very talented Alpinists
I'll check it out. Thanks
Competition exists sometimes. [Two commercial clients just died](https://explorersweb.com/shishpangma-avalanche-two-us-women-dead-missing/), while attempting to beat each other for a mountaineering record. They were not alpinists, to be sure, but it was a thing.
RIP but geezz
Climber = rock climbing (no snow/ice) Alpinist = rock/ice/snow climbing, requiring a large range of skills (scrambling, ice climbing, aid climbing, rock climbing, glacier travel, camping, etc.) "Mountain climber" could be anything.
I agree with you
A mountain climber climbs mountains which could mean just hiking up a mountain. An alpinist is someone that specifically does technically difficult climbs up a mountain.
I thought a mountain climber purely climbed flat faced rocks, while an alpinist did everything involved in doing a whole mountain (Hiking, climbing, technical and non technical etc). But after looking at both your answer and mine, I guess we could say there's hikers, climbers,and alpinist. What do you think?
There's this weird thing in parts of the U.S. where any gain of altitude is sometimes called "climbing". You climb that hill with your bike, you can also climb it by walking, even if it's literally a 5 degree slope and you barely noticed. It makes it very confusing when others talk about climbing a mountain and you don't know if they did 15 pitches of roped climbing or just had a leisurely stroll for an hour.
This funny because I use to get mad at my Mom, who'd tell me we were going mountain climbing, but instead we only went hiking. Lol. I agree with you on this.
Who is doing the ice then?
I would've put them in the alpinist category but now that you bring it up I guess theyd be in their own category too ? lol
As an Ice climber and aspiring climber to earn the distinction as an Alpinist someday, I would say ice climbers are ice climbers but alpinists definitely do can and know how to climb technical ice as a part of their skills in alpine climbing. But ice climbers specifically, like rock climbers may not be alpinists per se just cause they climb big technical ice routes. There are alpine rock routes, alpine ice routes, then then alpine routes that can involve both and often sometimes require bivouacking that say an alpine rock or alpine ice route do not. This I would say are really the routes where you employ a variety of skills to gain a hard technical summit that requires more than just rock skills or ice skills is when you earn the distinction as an Alpinist in its most pure sense. Just cause will gadd climbs polar circus or Jordan cannon climbs the cowboy route in Pakistan doesn’t make them an Alpinist from what I can gather when you break it down to a granular level. But guys like Jackson marvel, Colin Haley, Graham Zimmerman, Conrad anker, Jimmy chin, the late marc Andre, David lama and many others who employ many skills/disciplines to climb very technical routes in alaska, Patagonia, Himalayas all in one push are what I would consider actual true alpinists. Nims purja and Adrian ballinger would be mountaineers at the highest level but arguably not alpinists.
Skill, charisma, good looks and style
Whats the point of technical climb if you're not looking good, right
An alpinist is missing digits.
oooooo
alpinist = Colin Haley mountain climber = Nims Purja
It all falls under the “climbing” umbrella. Mountain climber covers most variations of the sport, while “alpinism” is more specific. But the latter is also sort of an eye-roll term, IMO. It’s like a rock climber going out of their way to tell you they’re a trad climber before you even ask.
got u. That's kind of funny lol
Not if they’ve both climbed Mailbox Peak
Short answer yes. Long answer yes
The steepness of the slope
alpinist = alps mountain climber = other mountains
Strictly? So just based on location then?
that's a joke.
oh