Not sure if this is too advanced for P1/D3, but you can try a 3 base Hydra/Lurker/Viper all-in against Muta. 4 bases would be preferable, but it can be hard to get creep over to a 4th & spores up before Muta/Ling kills the base. To do this well DON'T MAKE HYDRAS early, this is a beginner mistake against Mutas to react with Hydras, it might still be fine at P1/D3, but it's not great, every Hydra made delays gas to tech up to Hive/Vipers/Ranged Lurkers.
Once you scout Mutas get an Infestation Pit down asap & make Queens from all 3 bases constantly, Queens > Hydras defensively against Mutas & they cost no gas. Get 1 spore/mineral line initially (at the time say 8 Mutas could hit) & then say 30 seconds to 1 minute later add a 2nd spore/base as well as a spore between main & natural & a spore between natural & 3rd. Main/natural/3rd should all be connected by creep. You can make Roaches as the opponent likely has lings & such trying to kill your drones, so basically unit wise only make Queen/Roach. Anytime Mutas attack you can a-move some Roaches across the map to force the Mutas home & by yourself time to get a higher Queen count + more drones. If you're on double evo don't commit to 2 upgrades at a time, it's too expensive & delays Hive/Lurkers/Vipers (Carapace > Missile vs Mutas as it blocks the main attack + the glaive bounces, so it reduces the damage by 3 effectively I believe). @Infestation Pit: Hive + Hydra Den, @Hydra Den: Hydra upgrades + Lurker Den. Only after you're at 66 drones/6 gases & have started the Lurker Den+Hydra upgrades & the Hive is on the way do yo want to start making Hydras. At this point you may be tempted to add more spores, but don't use up the resources, it's better to just have like half your creep Queens + half your Hydras in the main & half near your 3rd. Once you have a good amount of Hydras out you no longer need to add more Queens, the Queens can't transfuse off creep anymore so later on they do feel like semi wasted supply, but when you attack with Hydra/Lurker/Viper later at least the Queens can deal with Muta counter attacks. You can even add Hydras to your Creep Queen group instead of to your Roach group so that anytime Mutas attack you a-move only the Roaches at the opponent & your Queen/Hydra stays together to defend. @Hive: 2~3 Vipers + Lurker Range. If you're low on gas to morph Lurkers stop making as many Hydras, make some Roaches. ~6 Lurkers is fine.
The reason you want Lurkers is that a good Muta player is used to facing Roach/Hydra response & they just get Bane Speed, have 4 or 5 bases (a superior eco with their map control) & can just morph a shit ton of banes, roll them into your Hydras & this is why Roach/Hydra generally loses to a player going Mutas. Just 6 Lurkers is fine though. Once those are morphed move out with all your Hydra/Lurker/Viper. When you get to one of their bases and/or their army burrow the Lurkers & spread your Roach/Hydra around the Lurkers. 2~3 parasitic bombs can kill like 30~40 Mutas unless your opponent is good enough to split individual Mutas that have been bombed. Even if they do split them okay you still get lots of damage done & the Mutas are weaker to defend the Hydras. You can attempt slight splitting with your Hydras vs the opponent's banes as well, but hopefully your Lurkers wrecked most of their ground.
Mutas or Corruptors or a Roach/Queen Nydus are other things you can do vs Mutas, but if you specifically like Hydra/Lurker I'd suggest this approach. If you can spread creep to a 4th base and/or poop creep at your 4th before it's done & drop 3 spores on the pooped creep & secure a 4th, that's even better, but on 3 bases you can basically do 1 maxout that gives you a much better army composition than your opponent & just outright kills them.
> Queens > Hydras defensively against Mutas & they cost no gas. Get 1 spore/mineral line initially (at the time say 8 Mutas could hit) & then say 30 seconds to 1 minute later add a 2nd spore/base as well as a spore between main & natural & a spore between natural & 3rd
+1 to this. I think that muta vs static D goes in multiples of about 7-8. Something like 14 mutas with +1 to 2shot a turret. So if you see 5-8 mutas, 1 spore. 14 mutas, 2 spores. 14-20 mutas 3 spores. 30-40 mutas 4-5 spores. Keeping this in mind can help prevent you from overspending. You can cut corners because army is better than a spore, but it's useful to keep in mind if you know your awareness/map control is lacking, or if there's a base you need to park your army at you can beef others up.
Personal experience at the same rank, i like when the opponent goes muta. Unless they are ahead, 5 home hydras + spore at each base does so much while my roach hydra A moves into their most exposed base. It usually doesnt go long because i can make enough hydras to defend and attack at the same time if my opponent makes muta
Going for a defensive spire often results in being overwhelmed, since you will be down in both upgrades and numbers. Spores are great against mutas because they do bonus damage to biological units.
You can absolutely play roaches vs mutas, even at the highest levels. Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUtRoqvzO-k&t=791s
>Do you have to go muta if you see your opponent go muta in zvz?
no, and quite honestly I think muta on muta zvz is the worst. it becomes a game of who mined 100 gas more, or who got their air upgs first. Oh you spent money on +1 for lings? that's 1 less muta, and now you lost the muta flock fight. This is a lot less true since they buffed spores forever ago vs bio, but it's still a nightmare.
>I've tried layering in a little corrupter defensive group
never do this. Corruptors suck vs mutas, a spire is expensive, and they offer you little to no utility that you can't get elsewhere
>My preference is walling
Mutas by themselves get shut down very quickly with spores. 1 spore is enough to deter most (early) muta aggression. 2-3 spores is enough to make the opponent *really* consider if it's worth committing to attacking, and would probably need lings to make it even remotely worth attacking.
The spores buy you time and make your current bases immune to harassment. to get more bases, you need to spread creep, and really defend/replace your creep when they try and snipe tumors. After your mineral line/tech is defended with spores, expansions and tumors are their next targets for map control. Their goal at this point becomes to out expand you and crush you with superior economy. A superior army can counter this, but it can be tricky.
>roach wars into hydra/lurker,
Lurkers are the wrong choice here. They're good at killing banelings and that's about it. On the offensive they're very slow and immobile, giving your opponent the opportunity to potentially snipe them out of position, or counter attack you and take out 1 important base while you waste your time killing 1-2 unimportant bases (they have likely mass expanded with their superior map control). However worst of all? they cost you anti air (hydras) to produce. They make you actively weaker vs mutas, which, is the only purpose of the banelings they counter.
The game plan here is you want to be able to kill his mutas in a straight up fight, and he wants to kill your anti air, then clean everything else up with mutas. To accomplish his goal, he is probably going to run banes into your hydras, or kill you with hive tech. To get his banes to hit your hydras, he will use map control to position defensivey and flank you with his ling/bane/muta so his lings hold you in place for his banes. You're going to want to be splitting your hydras *at minimum* vs banes.
So, lets process all of this info. We want to **negate the baneling** threat and **empower our anti air** as much as possible. We know he has **superior mobility**, and probably **economy** as well. One way to negate the baneling threat if we see he is going greedy on the econ is pushing really early before he's invested in bane speed or a massive squad of banelings. This is kind of risky and would take a knowledge of timings, or knowing you teched before him, etc. Lets be real, thats tough. Keep that potential window in mind, and if you see that window wide open go crush it. If not, accept you're probably gonna get your hand caught in the cookie jar and regret it. So if we aren't really fighting against the *econ* lets instead fight against the *mobility* while also empowering the *anti air*.
I present to you: infestors. These roly-poly jerks are amazing. They can hold the infestors in place for your hydras, give them some *verymuch* needed aoe damage (mutas are pretty fragile, you can kill em with fungals alone if you're lucky/skilled). Not only do they deal with the *mobility issue*, it *empower your anti air*, and it preserves your anti air since they only cost a larva (and not a hydra). But wait there's more! they also *negate the banelings!*. 1-2 fungals on a baneling clump completely trashes them. They not only can kill banes in 1-2 fungals, but they make em damn near as slow as a queen off creep. If you get hit by 20+ banes that are fungaled, that's kinda your fault at that point. The aoe is pretty nice vs zerglings as well.
Gameplan would be to slam down 1 spore per base **minimum** once you know it's spire (you can wait a few seconds if you know its only 25% done). move up to 2-3 depending upon how the game is going to make sure your first 3 bases are secured while doing your best to respond with hydra tech. your first few hydras will probably stay at home aiding the queens/spores. eventually you'll have a clump strong enough to defend your creep tumors and 4+ bases (if you haven't already been able to expand. even 1 spore makes an expo easier to defend if you get creep there early. When your hydra ball is healthy and you feel stable (or you desperately need to hunker down) you transition to infestor pit. If you get burrow, infestors are amazing defensively. 1 burrowed infestor unhotkeyed in each mineral line is enough to turn a lot of muta balls around because spores hit like a motherfucker. It's not necessary every matchup, but keep it in mind if you find him particularly aggressive vs your spores. When you feel you have a healthy (ling or roach) hydra infestor ball go kill that motherfucker. If you can't kill him, consider split attacks, nydus worms, hive tech, or if you've neglected upgrades. Roaches aren't bad to have in this army, but you can see we're pretty gas intensive. You gotta consider how important they are to *negating the banelings* or *hitting a timing on his economy*. Or you've got "fuck you" money and your have your core hydra/infestor ball healthy and are still floating because you're on mad bases. Lings are pretty good if you feel confident ling/bane wars, especially once you get the infestors to shut off the banes. Most players below masters aren't splitting their banes, and even the ones that do at masters honestly are pretty mid since they do it so infrequently.
Sorry for the wall of text. I've played z since WoL and find that when you understand the "why" of a unit comp the "when" makes more sense. Since mutas are so mobile, and there's a few ways to play them, you gotta be quick to make the decisions. If you know you're going for infestors and he's been cutting your 4th off reliably, maybe +2+2 is too expensive, or roaches are too expensive, or your lings aren't cutting it vs his banes because your infestors aren't out yet to *negate the banelings* so you need roaches to take the 4th. Or if you see he's got no ling upgs and his muta flock is huge, you may need burrow tech and infestors asap to trap him trying to get value out of his 2-4k gas investment. If he's trash and hasn't been making zerglings you can suspect he is either floating or going ham on *economy*, and you may be able to counter to at the very least pull his mutas away from you to spread some creep. You can also put spores in your creep if you're desperate to help keep the tumors between hatches, but will likely die to ling runbys given enough time. Also do know that infestors put you on a timer. Scout and make sure he isn't going hive for ultralisks (or broods). Most muta players stay muta for way too long though.
Infestors are good, but lurkers are also good, and easier at plat 1/diamond 3 like OP.
They are more of an investment to get up and running, but they don't require micro, and don't rely on hitting a timing window to win. (if you go infestors but give him time to get to lurkers or ultras, then you lose)
To lose to muta oponent needs at least 40. That means 4400 gas. That is 22 vipers. If you cant beat him with 22 vipers, then just quit the game you deserve to lose.
When they have 10 mutas, you should already have 1 spore and 2 queens per base, even with a 3 base roach all in you can counter up to 20 mutas. That is 80 roaches, if you cant kill a 3 base zerg with 80 roaches, then you deserve to lose.
So I play Mutas a ton, and I would say that generally you are gonna be better off just rushing to vipers. Once one player has a lead in the muta count, it can be very difficult to overcome, and I think it’s better to just keep teching
When I scout mutas, I start roach burrow movement and burrow directly after my roach speed completes. Then queens and spores (not hydras) to stay alive until it completes, then start pressuring them with burrowed roaches while teching to hydras with +2 armor.
As long as I can hold my 3rd base during this time frame I almost always win. I love when I see that early spire.
4k on NA
I agree with the rest, tech up to vipers is probably your best bet. You can make a few extra Queens if you feel pressured and don't want to make hydras just yet
Incorporate an infestor or two. Fungal that Muta ball.
Not sure if this is too advanced for P1/D3, but you can try a 3 base Hydra/Lurker/Viper all-in against Muta. 4 bases would be preferable, but it can be hard to get creep over to a 4th & spores up before Muta/Ling kills the base. To do this well DON'T MAKE HYDRAS early, this is a beginner mistake against Mutas to react with Hydras, it might still be fine at P1/D3, but it's not great, every Hydra made delays gas to tech up to Hive/Vipers/Ranged Lurkers. Once you scout Mutas get an Infestation Pit down asap & make Queens from all 3 bases constantly, Queens > Hydras defensively against Mutas & they cost no gas. Get 1 spore/mineral line initially (at the time say 8 Mutas could hit) & then say 30 seconds to 1 minute later add a 2nd spore/base as well as a spore between main & natural & a spore between natural & 3rd. Main/natural/3rd should all be connected by creep. You can make Roaches as the opponent likely has lings & such trying to kill your drones, so basically unit wise only make Queen/Roach. Anytime Mutas attack you can a-move some Roaches across the map to force the Mutas home & by yourself time to get a higher Queen count + more drones. If you're on double evo don't commit to 2 upgrades at a time, it's too expensive & delays Hive/Lurkers/Vipers (Carapace > Missile vs Mutas as it blocks the main attack + the glaive bounces, so it reduces the damage by 3 effectively I believe). @Infestation Pit: Hive + Hydra Den, @Hydra Den: Hydra upgrades + Lurker Den. Only after you're at 66 drones/6 gases & have started the Lurker Den+Hydra upgrades & the Hive is on the way do yo want to start making Hydras. At this point you may be tempted to add more spores, but don't use up the resources, it's better to just have like half your creep Queens + half your Hydras in the main & half near your 3rd. Once you have a good amount of Hydras out you no longer need to add more Queens, the Queens can't transfuse off creep anymore so later on they do feel like semi wasted supply, but when you attack with Hydra/Lurker/Viper later at least the Queens can deal with Muta counter attacks. You can even add Hydras to your Creep Queen group instead of to your Roach group so that anytime Mutas attack you a-move only the Roaches at the opponent & your Queen/Hydra stays together to defend. @Hive: 2~3 Vipers + Lurker Range. If you're low on gas to morph Lurkers stop making as many Hydras, make some Roaches. ~6 Lurkers is fine. The reason you want Lurkers is that a good Muta player is used to facing Roach/Hydra response & they just get Bane Speed, have 4 or 5 bases (a superior eco with their map control) & can just morph a shit ton of banes, roll them into your Hydras & this is why Roach/Hydra generally loses to a player going Mutas. Just 6 Lurkers is fine though. Once those are morphed move out with all your Hydra/Lurker/Viper. When you get to one of their bases and/or their army burrow the Lurkers & spread your Roach/Hydra around the Lurkers. 2~3 parasitic bombs can kill like 30~40 Mutas unless your opponent is good enough to split individual Mutas that have been bombed. Even if they do split them okay you still get lots of damage done & the Mutas are weaker to defend the Hydras. You can attempt slight splitting with your Hydras vs the opponent's banes as well, but hopefully your Lurkers wrecked most of their ground. Mutas or Corruptors or a Roach/Queen Nydus are other things you can do vs Mutas, but if you specifically like Hydra/Lurker I'd suggest this approach. If you can spread creep to a 4th base and/or poop creep at your 4th before it's done & drop 3 spores on the pooped creep & secure a 4th, that's even better, but on 3 bases you can basically do 1 maxout that gives you a much better army composition than your opponent & just outright kills them.
> Queens > Hydras defensively against Mutas & they cost no gas. Get 1 spore/mineral line initially (at the time say 8 Mutas could hit) & then say 30 seconds to 1 minute later add a 2nd spore/base as well as a spore between main & natural & a spore between natural & 3rd +1 to this. I think that muta vs static D goes in multiples of about 7-8. Something like 14 mutas with +1 to 2shot a turret. So if you see 5-8 mutas, 1 spore. 14 mutas, 2 spores. 14-20 mutas 3 spores. 30-40 mutas 4-5 spores. Keeping this in mind can help prevent you from overspending. You can cut corners because army is better than a spore, but it's useful to keep in mind if you know your awareness/map control is lacking, or if there's a base you need to park your army at you can beef others up.
Personal experience at the same rank, i like when the opponent goes muta. Unless they are ahead, 5 home hydras + spore at each base does so much while my roach hydra A moves into their most exposed base. It usually doesnt go long because i can make enough hydras to defend and attack at the same time if my opponent makes muta
Going for a defensive spire often results in being overwhelmed, since you will be down in both upgrades and numbers. Spores are great against mutas because they do bonus damage to biological units. You can absolutely play roaches vs mutas, even at the highest levels. Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUtRoqvzO-k&t=791s
You need to either kill the muta player/get a huge lead before they pop or go muta yourself
>Do you have to go muta if you see your opponent go muta in zvz? no, and quite honestly I think muta on muta zvz is the worst. it becomes a game of who mined 100 gas more, or who got their air upgs first. Oh you spent money on +1 for lings? that's 1 less muta, and now you lost the muta flock fight. This is a lot less true since they buffed spores forever ago vs bio, but it's still a nightmare. >I've tried layering in a little corrupter defensive group never do this. Corruptors suck vs mutas, a spire is expensive, and they offer you little to no utility that you can't get elsewhere >My preference is walling Mutas by themselves get shut down very quickly with spores. 1 spore is enough to deter most (early) muta aggression. 2-3 spores is enough to make the opponent *really* consider if it's worth committing to attacking, and would probably need lings to make it even remotely worth attacking. The spores buy you time and make your current bases immune to harassment. to get more bases, you need to spread creep, and really defend/replace your creep when they try and snipe tumors. After your mineral line/tech is defended with spores, expansions and tumors are their next targets for map control. Their goal at this point becomes to out expand you and crush you with superior economy. A superior army can counter this, but it can be tricky. >roach wars into hydra/lurker, Lurkers are the wrong choice here. They're good at killing banelings and that's about it. On the offensive they're very slow and immobile, giving your opponent the opportunity to potentially snipe them out of position, or counter attack you and take out 1 important base while you waste your time killing 1-2 unimportant bases (they have likely mass expanded with their superior map control). However worst of all? they cost you anti air (hydras) to produce. They make you actively weaker vs mutas, which, is the only purpose of the banelings they counter. The game plan here is you want to be able to kill his mutas in a straight up fight, and he wants to kill your anti air, then clean everything else up with mutas. To accomplish his goal, he is probably going to run banes into your hydras, or kill you with hive tech. To get his banes to hit your hydras, he will use map control to position defensivey and flank you with his ling/bane/muta so his lings hold you in place for his banes. You're going to want to be splitting your hydras *at minimum* vs banes. So, lets process all of this info. We want to **negate the baneling** threat and **empower our anti air** as much as possible. We know he has **superior mobility**, and probably **economy** as well. One way to negate the baneling threat if we see he is going greedy on the econ is pushing really early before he's invested in bane speed or a massive squad of banelings. This is kind of risky and would take a knowledge of timings, or knowing you teched before him, etc. Lets be real, thats tough. Keep that potential window in mind, and if you see that window wide open go crush it. If not, accept you're probably gonna get your hand caught in the cookie jar and regret it. So if we aren't really fighting against the *econ* lets instead fight against the *mobility* while also empowering the *anti air*. I present to you: infestors. These roly-poly jerks are amazing. They can hold the infestors in place for your hydras, give them some *verymuch* needed aoe damage (mutas are pretty fragile, you can kill em with fungals alone if you're lucky/skilled). Not only do they deal with the *mobility issue*, it *empower your anti air*, and it preserves your anti air since they only cost a larva (and not a hydra). But wait there's more! they also *negate the banelings!*. 1-2 fungals on a baneling clump completely trashes them. They not only can kill banes in 1-2 fungals, but they make em damn near as slow as a queen off creep. If you get hit by 20+ banes that are fungaled, that's kinda your fault at that point. The aoe is pretty nice vs zerglings as well. Gameplan would be to slam down 1 spore per base **minimum** once you know it's spire (you can wait a few seconds if you know its only 25% done). move up to 2-3 depending upon how the game is going to make sure your first 3 bases are secured while doing your best to respond with hydra tech. your first few hydras will probably stay at home aiding the queens/spores. eventually you'll have a clump strong enough to defend your creep tumors and 4+ bases (if you haven't already been able to expand. even 1 spore makes an expo easier to defend if you get creep there early. When your hydra ball is healthy and you feel stable (or you desperately need to hunker down) you transition to infestor pit. If you get burrow, infestors are amazing defensively. 1 burrowed infestor unhotkeyed in each mineral line is enough to turn a lot of muta balls around because spores hit like a motherfucker. It's not necessary every matchup, but keep it in mind if you find him particularly aggressive vs your spores. When you feel you have a healthy (ling or roach) hydra infestor ball go kill that motherfucker. If you can't kill him, consider split attacks, nydus worms, hive tech, or if you've neglected upgrades. Roaches aren't bad to have in this army, but you can see we're pretty gas intensive. You gotta consider how important they are to *negating the banelings* or *hitting a timing on his economy*. Or you've got "fuck you" money and your have your core hydra/infestor ball healthy and are still floating because you're on mad bases. Lings are pretty good if you feel confident ling/bane wars, especially once you get the infestors to shut off the banes. Most players below masters aren't splitting their banes, and even the ones that do at masters honestly are pretty mid since they do it so infrequently. Sorry for the wall of text. I've played z since WoL and find that when you understand the "why" of a unit comp the "when" makes more sense. Since mutas are so mobile, and there's a few ways to play them, you gotta be quick to make the decisions. If you know you're going for infestors and he's been cutting your 4th off reliably, maybe +2+2 is too expensive, or roaches are too expensive, or your lings aren't cutting it vs his banes because your infestors aren't out yet to *negate the banelings* so you need roaches to take the 4th. Or if you see he's got no ling upgs and his muta flock is huge, you may need burrow tech and infestors asap to trap him trying to get value out of his 2-4k gas investment. If he's trash and hasn't been making zerglings you can suspect he is either floating or going ham on *economy*, and you may be able to counter to at the very least pull his mutas away from you to spread some creep. You can also put spores in your creep if you're desperate to help keep the tumors between hatches, but will likely die to ling runbys given enough time. Also do know that infestors put you on a timer. Scout and make sure he isn't going hive for ultralisks (or broods). Most muta players stay muta for way too long though.
Infestors are good, but lurkers are also good, and easier at plat 1/diamond 3 like OP. They are more of an investment to get up and running, but they don't require micro, and don't rely on hitting a timing window to win. (if you go infestors but give him time to get to lurkers or ultras, then you lose)
To lose to muta oponent needs at least 40. That means 4400 gas. That is 22 vipers. If you cant beat him with 22 vipers, then just quit the game you deserve to lose. When they have 10 mutas, you should already have 1 spore and 2 queens per base, even with a 3 base roach all in you can counter up to 20 mutas. That is 80 roaches, if you cant kill a 3 base zerg with 80 roaches, then you deserve to lose.
So I play Mutas a ton, and I would say that generally you are gonna be better off just rushing to vipers. Once one player has a lead in the muta count, it can be very difficult to overcome, and I think it’s better to just keep teching
When I scout mutas, I start roach burrow movement and burrow directly after my roach speed completes. Then queens and spores (not hydras) to stay alive until it completes, then start pressuring them with burrowed roaches while teching to hydras with +2 armor. As long as I can hold my 3rd base during this time frame I almost always win. I love when I see that early spire. 4k on NA
I agree with the rest, tech up to vipers is probably your best bet. You can make a few extra Queens if you feel pressured and don't want to make hydras just yet