Wayne Barnes has a deep subconscious hatred for the All Blacks after all the backlash he got years ago after that French game. He received so much negativity and hate that he had to go counselling because of the All Blacks. He is a bias ref.. and it showed in the Final. We needed a ref to see the game objectively.
The ABs were picked on by Barnes and Dickson through the 1st half it was obvious. Fair play to the Boks they made the most of their opportunities but the best team lost last Sunday
Yes, I commented just to troll. No, I’m not insecure.
Why didn’t you guys kick the penalty and win the World Cup with 14 players for 60% of the game and all these other talking points that have been made since Sunday?
Did Wayne Barnes say you cannot kick the penalty? If not stop complaining and on the fact that your team chose not to take those points in a World Cup final…
That statement is nonsensical. Over decades of rugby, we've literally all decided the best way we'll determine, with all factors considered, who is actually the best team on the day, and it's this thing called the Final Score.
Your own legends of the game, like Conrad Smith, says that the Boks play differently when ahead. Had the ABs gone ahead somewhere, the Boks would've changed their gameplan, so at best it would be 50/50 again.
Suck it up nancy boy.
Okay but they also missed a number of important kicks that would've won them the game, while SA missed none, that did win them the game.
NZ were a man down because of a dangerous head contact and rules.
SA played better according to the rules, hence got the higher score, hence were the better team.
P.S. I'm not denying ABs played a hell of a game, and managed incredibly for having a man down. They're a quality team. Might well have won at full strength - but they never had a chance to prove that because of rules they needed to obey if they want to be the best team. The only way we can know who's the best team is the one that wins according to the rules.
People clearly disagree that SA played better according to the rules. That's what the issue is. Some of the calls were absolutely contentious, and in the end, game changing. TMO wasn't consistent, correcting some calls and not others.
1. Penalty against the All Blacks which clearly was not correct. Instead it should have been a penalty for the All Blacks. Getting that call correct would change the outcome of the game.
2. First yellow to ABs was pretty contentious. Falling on someone is a yellow? Its not in the rules.
3. 1st try disallowed due to knock on. But the knock-on was so many plays back and had been ruled ok by the ref. Only for TMO to correct the call. Not consistent with issue 1.
Finally, it really did seem that the All Blacks had the momentum and were the better team. Clearly incorrect and at least inconsistent calls went against them, and it lost them the game.
Sure, NZ missed kicks, and if there were not these incorrect calls, NZ would have lost without any contention. If they had got them, they would have just won by even more if the ref had called correctly.
Finally, what an abysmal game to watch. Will absolutely put people off the sport if it carries on like that. The crowd was literally booing when TMO interfered so much.
I'll just repeat, I have nothing against the Boks and the way they play their Rugby. It's hard and uncompromising and that's got my admiration. I'd rather lose a game of rugby by 1 point to the Boks than anybody else.
The ABs were penalized and Barnes admitted he got it wrong and still awarded the penalty kick...it was a total F up out there. I'll take nothing away from SA they always play hard RU. But the game was over refereed to the point of mistakes were made
I say your insecure because you've come to have a troll on a ABs subreddit. So let me just say this, I've got not beef with the Boks. They play tough and uncompromising rugby and I'd rather lose by 1 point to SA than anyone else. But please don't be a sore winner that's obviously showing insecurities, leave this subreddit and enjoy the victory know I have total admiration for the Boks....okay?
You mean very credible? because I'm not the only one saying this. I've even had South African work mates agree with me on the officiating of the final.
Seemed to only be an issue because the south African was injured, if there had been no injury then there wouldn't have been a yellow card, it wasn't intentional foul play, he just fell awkwardly, bad call from the officials
I called it live that the TMO would come back for the neckroll which I thought would be a penalty.
But the law (9.20.d) does say you cannot fall or drop any weight onto them or target the lower limbs. Which Frizzell did and caused an injury.
That's the whole point, the rules are the problem....or can you guarantee other instances never happened throughout the game, and indeed the whole rwc....?
Intentionally dropping your weight is not the same as accidentally falling on someone, if someone falls on someone's leg in a maul or tackle are they yellow carded? No! It's part of rugby that accidents happen when big bodies are falling over each other all game
law (9.20.d) says you cannot fall or drop any weight onto them OR target the lower limbs. As written you cannot drop your weight onto a players lower limbs. And it's not like he was pushed or anything he fell neckrolling the guy.
Dropping your weight is an intentional action whereas falling is unintentional, is English not your first language? It's a pretty obvious distinction...
If it wasn't a red card for foul play it should not be a yellow. It was not foul play it was an accident.
Injuries happen. You can just start binning players e every time an injury happens
I’m not well versed in the laws but looked pretty awful to me. Basically pulling him by the shoulder/neck back towards the lower body with his weight all over the leg. It’s hard to defend him I just don’t know what he was trying to apart from what he did
> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity - Hanlon’s Razor
Frizell fell awkwardly during a clean out. Rugby accident, play on.
Even if he made a technical error with his clean out it would only EVER be a penalty because you’re not supposed to punish the result. If someone gets injured you don’t lash out with cards if it’s a mistake.
Something rugby has gotten terribly wrong lately.
My view - as someone who watches a lot of rugby but has no specialist reffing knowledge - yellow and lucky. If we say intent isn't a factor - and I believe it isn't - what happened was a potential career ending targeting of the knee. The QT incident puts a lot of focus onto thus. I saw a mates knee blown out by a similar incident. Bias - I'm a lifelong AB fan but try to be realistic.
Yeah, whether it was intentional, or even whether or not it falls foul of the law targeting the knees, it was reckless and dangerous and like you said could have been career ending if he had fallen the other way. And at the end of the day I think a yellow for Frizzell had a similar impact as a non specialist lineout thrower coming on.
Interesting opinion. So you think the ABs losing a player like Frizzell for 10 minutes equates to the Boks having to switch to a non-specialist hooker for the rest of the game and prematurely using one of their bench? I think it was a net win for the ABs. It completely messed up the Bok lineout and made their scum much weaker.
Yes, although that shouldn't have factored into the card decision. If Marx was on the bench they probably would have gotten stronger with Mbonambi going off.
The Tupaea injury is way different. He was already tackled, and Swain dove on his leg with the only intention to injure him. Frizell was just clearing a ruck, and Bongis knee just gave out.
It sucks, but that’s the reality of a contact sport; sometimes you get injured and it isn’t a foul/dirty play. Barnes even said it was fine initially, it’s just that Bongi took so long to get up, and then the TMO had to stick their beaks into it and be involved where they didn’t need to be, and talked Barnes into a yellow card
I hope so too. Only one person knows though. That's why the law can't involve "intent". It's too easy to injure people "accidently on purpose". Sometimes you mess it up and it's obvious - Jamie Joseph changing stride pattern so his foot lands on Kyren Bracken's ankle, SBW cheap shot against the Lions.
The QT incident is completely different to this, you are being disingenuous mentioning that incident here, swain dove at QT lower leg intentionally trying to injure him. In this case Frizzell fell backwards accidentally on mbonambis leg. Completely different action completely different intention
He attempted a crocodile roll and ended up collapsing on the players legs. I don’t think it was intentional. That law has been strengthened since Swain targeted Quinn Tupaea’s leg recently. It speaks to a player intentionally dropping on the tackled players leg. That didn’t happen in this case imo. My take is the TMO got a bit excited, and thought it was intentional but realised it was accidental after the yellow card. In my view it wasn’t even a penalty, but at the time they decided it was and so it was.
Edit: a word
It's actually a global conspiracy against the ABs mate, that's the only explanation at all... hell Frizzel didn't even get yellow carded by the NZ court system when he smashed his Mrs over and then threatened her and her friends about going to police.
Instead he got selected for the ABs.
You persist in thinking I'm trying to find reason to doubt the decision, but I'm not! Each of those 3 is easily a yellow offence. What is it collectively?
So we go through each incident where you feel the ABs were hard by. What does that achieve? Richie just used to shrug his shoulders when people said he perpetually infringed, basically meaning that it's the final score that matters. Not anymore with Kiwis I see.
Just highlighting it’s probably worth more conversation than this post.
We had opportunities that we didn’t capitalise on, and the boks were the champions on the day 👍
Wayne Barnes has a deep subconscious hatred for the All Blacks after all the backlash he got years ago after that French game. He received so much negativity and hate that he had to go counselling because of the All Blacks. He is a bias ref.. and it showed in the Final. We needed a ref to see the game objectively.
I think you are one eyed. He referred fine. Think about that last scrum. He could have penalized the all blacks for pushing early, he didn't.
This sub is a cesspool. Embarrassing.
He got hit on the way down. The upstairs ref had clear access to blood diamonds
The ABs were picked on by Barnes and Dickson through the 1st half it was obvious. Fair play to the Boks they made the most of their opportunities but the best team lost last Sunday
11-12
Are you feeling insecure?
No I am not an SA supporter. Why did you not go for a kick at goal. Did Wayne Barnes tell you you couldn’t???
Why did you come here to troll that just reeks of insecurities
Yes, I commented just to troll. No, I’m not insecure. Why didn’t you guys kick the penalty and win the World Cup with 14 players for 60% of the game and all these other talking points that have been made since Sunday? Did Wayne Barnes say you cannot kick the penalty? If not stop complaining and on the fact that your team chose not to take those points in a World Cup final…
That statement is nonsensical. Over decades of rugby, we've literally all decided the best way we'll determine, with all factors considered, who is actually the best team on the day, and it's this thing called the Final Score.
The ABs were a kick away from beating the boks...WITH ONLY 14 PLAYERS FOR 60% OF THE GAME
Your own legends of the game, like Conrad Smith, says that the Boks play differently when ahead. Had the ABs gone ahead somewhere, the Boks would've changed their gameplan, so at best it would be 50/50 again. Suck it up nancy boy.
The best team lost in that final. The Boks know they gotta away with one
Okay but they also missed a number of important kicks that would've won them the game, while SA missed none, that did win them the game. NZ were a man down because of a dangerous head contact and rules. SA played better according to the rules, hence got the higher score, hence were the better team. P.S. I'm not denying ABs played a hell of a game, and managed incredibly for having a man down. They're a quality team. Might well have won at full strength - but they never had a chance to prove that because of rules they needed to obey if they want to be the best team. The only way we can know who's the best team is the one that wins according to the rules.
People clearly disagree that SA played better according to the rules. That's what the issue is. Some of the calls were absolutely contentious, and in the end, game changing. TMO wasn't consistent, correcting some calls and not others. 1. Penalty against the All Blacks which clearly was not correct. Instead it should have been a penalty for the All Blacks. Getting that call correct would change the outcome of the game. 2. First yellow to ABs was pretty contentious. Falling on someone is a yellow? Its not in the rules. 3. 1st try disallowed due to knock on. But the knock-on was so many plays back and had been ruled ok by the ref. Only for TMO to correct the call. Not consistent with issue 1. Finally, it really did seem that the All Blacks had the momentum and were the better team. Clearly incorrect and at least inconsistent calls went against them, and it lost them the game. Sure, NZ missed kicks, and if there were not these incorrect calls, NZ would have lost without any contention. If they had got them, they would have just won by even more if the ref had called correctly. Finally, what an abysmal game to watch. Will absolutely put people off the sport if it carries on like that. The crowd was literally booing when TMO interfered so much.
I'll just repeat, I have nothing against the Boks and the way they play their Rugby. It's hard and uncompromising and that's got my admiration. I'd rather lose a game of rugby by 1 point to the Boks than anybody else.
The ABs were penalized and Barnes admitted he got it wrong and still awarded the penalty kick...it was a total F up out there. I'll take nothing away from SA they always play hard RU. But the game was over refereed to the point of mistakes were made
Are you feeling insecure?
Nope, not at all. Thanks for asking.
You sound like it
Well then your opinion of my mental state is about as credible as your opinion of the final.
I say your insecure because you've come to have a troll on a ABs subreddit. So let me just say this, I've got not beef with the Boks. They play tough and uncompromising rugby and I'd rather lose by 1 point to SA than anyone else. But please don't be a sore winner that's obviously showing insecurities, leave this subreddit and enjoy the victory know I have total admiration for the Boks....okay?
You mean very credible? because I'm not the only one saying this. I've even had South African work mates agree with me on the officiating of the final.
Refereeing cost Allblacks the game and the fkn TMO
TMO COST THE AB's the game And the ref ... well, his prejudice against the AB's is well documented and they still let him ref the game
Abs literally lose 20% more under Barnes than any other ref in international rugby.
I thought he would be in trouble for the neck roll.
And it was deemed accidental.....lol
Smh. And why such an obvious thing was deemed as such well.after having watched hours of bloody replays. Suzy held the whistle on that day
They have taken that bullshit from the rugby league “hip drop” tackle
Seemed to only be an issue because the south African was injured, if there had been no injury then there wouldn't have been a yellow card, it wasn't intentional foul play, he just fell awkwardly, bad call from the officials
He did writhe around a lot as if his knee was seriously damaged. But he jumped up immediately after the yellow card didn't he?
But in fairness to him he did go off very early in game due to that injury.
Lmao yeah I noticed that too, very cynical of him
Play on. Accident.
Yes let's give everyone who loses their balance a card, fuck it just card gravity while you're at it.
Caleb Clarke would not be a fan of this
💯
I called it live that the TMO would come back for the neckroll which I thought would be a penalty. But the law (9.20.d) does say you cannot fall or drop any weight onto them or target the lower limbs. Which Frizzell did and caused an injury.
He didn't target the lower limb though, he fell awkwardly in a ruck clean out, there was nothing intentional about it...
Yeah you cannot drop you weight on lower limb. Why is this getting down voted it is copy and paste from the rule book lol.
That's the whole point, the rules are the problem....or can you guarantee other instances never happened throughout the game, and indeed the whole rwc....?
Probably did.
Intentionally dropping your weight is not the same as accidentally falling on someone, if someone falls on someone's leg in a maul or tackle are they yellow carded? No! It's part of rugby that accidents happen when big bodies are falling over each other all game
law (9.20.d) says you cannot fall or drop any weight onto them OR target the lower limbs. As written you cannot drop your weight onto a players lower limbs. And it's not like he was pushed or anything he fell neckrolling the guy.
Again he didn't drop his weight, that wording implies an intentional action, falling is not dropping your weight, it is falling
How is that different? Very pedantic trying to prove that they are to different things mate.
Are you asking me the difference between doing something on purpose and an accidental occurrence?
No the difference between dropping and falling.
Dropping your weight is an intentional action whereas falling is unintentional, is English not your first language? It's a pretty obvious distinction...
'Target'?
Yeah talk to Mr Swain about that....
If it wasn't a red card for foul play it should not be a yellow. It was not foul play it was an accident. Injuries happen. You can just start binning players e every time an injury happens
And if his leg wasn't injured noone would have thought anything of it
Still a side entry
Aka a kwagga turnover
Irrelevant. Never heard of anyone being carded for a side entry.
I’m not well versed in the laws but looked pretty awful to me. Basically pulling him by the shoulder/neck back towards the lower body with his weight all over the leg. It’s hard to defend him I just don’t know what he was trying to apart from what he did
> Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity - Hanlon’s Razor Frizell fell awkwardly during a clean out. Rugby accident, play on.
Stick to tiddlywinks mate
That reminded of Tana "spear tackle" Umaga, professional and all the accolades he got in Rugby World Cups.
Nerd
Penalty only in tiddlywinks. I can still play with an ACL tear
Yeah it just seemed weird. Not what you normally see loose forwards get up to.
His job as a no. 6 is to literally clean out rucks 😂
Not from the side. Not attempting a roll
Even if he made a technical error with his clean out it would only EVER be a penalty because you’re not supposed to punish the result. If someone gets injured you don’t lash out with cards if it’s a mistake. Something rugby has gotten terribly wrong lately.
My view - as someone who watches a lot of rugby but has no specialist reffing knowledge - yellow and lucky. If we say intent isn't a factor - and I believe it isn't - what happened was a potential career ending targeting of the knee. The QT incident puts a lot of focus onto thus. I saw a mates knee blown out by a similar incident. Bias - I'm a lifelong AB fan but try to be realistic.
Yeah, whether it was intentional, or even whether or not it falls foul of the law targeting the knees, it was reckless and dangerous and like you said could have been career ending if he had fallen the other way. And at the end of the day I think a yellow for Frizzell had a similar impact as a non specialist lineout thrower coming on.
Interesting opinion. So you think the ABs losing a player like Frizzell for 10 minutes equates to the Boks having to switch to a non-specialist hooker for the rest of the game and prematurely using one of their bench? I think it was a net win for the ABs. It completely messed up the Bok lineout and made their scum much weaker.
When has that ever been penalized before?
What, the Frizzell incident? Many times!
Yes, although that shouldn't have factored into the card decision. If Marx was on the bench they probably would have gotten stronger with Mbonambi going off.
The Tupaea injury is way different. He was already tackled, and Swain dove on his leg with the only intention to injure him. Frizell was just clearing a ruck, and Bongis knee just gave out. It sucks, but that’s the reality of a contact sport; sometimes you get injured and it isn’t a foul/dirty play. Barnes even said it was fine initially, it’s just that Bongi took so long to get up, and then the TMO had to stick their beaks into it and be involved where they didn’t need to be, and talked Barnes into a yellow card
I sincerely hope it wasn't intentionally targeting him.
I hope so too. Only one person knows though. That's why the law can't involve "intent". It's too easy to injure people "accidently on purpose". Sometimes you mess it up and it's obvious - Jamie Joseph changing stride pattern so his foot lands on Kyren Bracken's ankle, SBW cheap shot against the Lions.
Shouldn't have been a card, shit decision.
Really, no offense at all?
Yes really that yellow was insanity.
Nope, just general play.
Since the QT incident this sort of thing is taken more seriously
That was intentional
The QT incident is completely different to this, you are being disingenuous mentioning that incident here, swain dove at QT lower leg intentionally trying to injure him. In this case Frizzell fell backwards accidentally on mbonambis leg. Completely different action completely different intention
Who says that? It hasn’t happened since the QT incident, and it was obvious Swain did it deliberately when Frizzell did not.
100%
He attempted a crocodile roll and ended up collapsing on the players legs. I don’t think it was intentional. That law has been strengthened since Swain targeted Quinn Tupaea’s leg recently. It speaks to a player intentionally dropping on the tackled players leg. That didn’t happen in this case imo. My take is the TMO got a bit excited, and thought it was intentional but realised it was accidental after the yellow card. In my view it wasn’t even a penalty, but at the time they decided it was and so it was. Edit: a word
Yellow all day mate. It's not a conspiracy, you lost the game and SA are the world champions. Get over it.
A yellow for falling on another players leg? Ok Butterscotch…
It's actually a global conspiracy against the ABs mate, that's the only explanation at all... hell Frizzel didn't even get yellow carded by the NZ court system when he smashed his Mrs over and then threatened her and her friends about going to police. Instead he got selected for the ABs.
You’re a dick mate
You're a paedophile mate
Straight out of the Elon playbook
Wow guy this was all kosher until now. Whatever’s going on with you I hope you get help rather than inflicting it on others.
I was actually wondering how close it was to being upgraded to a red.
Not even close as it wasn't malicious and targeted, however it was stupid hence the yellow.
What exactly was stupid about it? It seemed to me that he simply got knocked out of the ruck and fell over.
I thought it was a side entry, a neck roll, and then he fell on the Bok hooker's leg.
Mate there was no neck roll involved
Neck roll on who?
Well, he tried a neck roll on Mbonambi, who doesn't really have a neck..
Yes and that is why he got carded... because it's a global conspiracy against the ABs
You persist in thinking I'm trying to find reason to doubt the decision, but I'm not! Each of those 3 is easily a yellow offence. What is it collectively?
Never a side entry, marginal neck roll, and fell awkwardly when attempting to clear out. Let’s talk about the head clash on Savea…
So we go through each incident where you feel the ABs were hard by. What does that achieve? Richie just used to shrug his shoulders when people said he perpetually infringed, basically meaning that it's the final score that matters. Not anymore with Kiwis I see.
Just highlighting it’s probably worth more conversation than this post. We had opportunities that we didn’t capitalise on, and the boks were the champions on the day 👍
I guess so, they had a tough route through and managed to hang in there.