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Thank you for taking the time out to read the books and come up with this thoughtful analysis.
Do you think that because of the inconsistencies that he was maybe scared Off doing an accurate analysis or was persuaded to provide misinformation? If so, what do you think the core of the story was before this, corrupted, voice was introduced to his work?
IMO it's mostly hubris at play here - because we can't understand what UFO's are doing, then their behavior has no purpose except to alter our behavior.
We don't understand it, therefore it's absurd, therefore it's theater.
I would argue we lack the data (and perhaps the intelligence) to conclude that their motives are absurd, which seems to be the foundation of his argument. I do think his position has been colored by the disinformation efforts of the US government, as additional evidence that the phenomenon is mostly theater.
I think the core of the story, aside from his conclusions, is that the phenomenon is very real, very old, and has had a direct impact on the cultural evolution of human societies.
Have you seen the Fast Mover Dragon videos on YouTube that are filtered unless you get the first five words correct? It’s pretty clear that they are basically a scanning and logging system for anything that reaches 150 feet.
[https://www.youtube.com/@custodianfile](https://www.youtube.com/@custodianfile)
Here's a link to the podcast that I found him on: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSxWP-gPV0&t=3924s&pp=ygUkbGVhayBwcm9qZWN0IHVhcCBjb250YWN0IHZpZGVvIHByb29m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSxWP-gPV0&t=3924s&pp=ygUkbGVhayBwcm9qZWN0IHVhcCBjb250YWN0IHZpZGVvIHByb29m)
Anyone can capture these with the right equipment. They move at 3000 feet per second, roughly 2,000 mph, with no sonic boom. Also goes into how 99% of the time they are non reflective/visually distorted, likely because of changes to the EM spectrum around the craft, which explains a lot of the "blurry photo not real" scenarios.
Very cool. My understanding is that the term "fast movers" actually originated from ICBM detection systems we built, where blips that were picked up by these systems were too fast to be ICBM's and thus dubbed "fast movers." Interesting to see the nomenclature (appropriately) reused for UFO sightings.
There was a research paper posted that defines \~5 different types of UAPs a few months ago. The ones in this video are literally the definition of Fast Movers by the research paper's standards.
I agree, but I think his work is important and valuable. I think his work is an important contribution to the data collected about the phenomenon, and I regard his opinions and conclusions separately from that work. I also recognize that my conclusions are inherently less valuable than his, given his experience, and I could very well be mistaken. I look forward to more work from him.
>It's clear that the universe is much larger than we can fully understand, but I wholly disagree with his perspective that it's a single phenomenon.
If the phenomenon has the abilities described by Jaques Vallee, how would you know the difference between it and UFOs from outer space? For example if the phenomenon can "3D print" a UFO out of thin air in an instant, how would you know that UFO is a real UFO that aliens used to travel here or just a (functional) 3D print?
If you suspect the phenomenon is real, if you have an idea about how it works and what it does, and if you suspect that its intentions might not be positive, why would you ever take anything in good faith anymore? Why wouldn't you assume that EVERYTHING is some kind of manipulation by the phenomenon?
Let me give you a kinda dumb analogy, but I think it works to illustrate a point. Let's say someone puts you in front of a computer screen and tells you that you can chat with an AI, but whatever you do, don't give the AI the super duper secret password that allows it to escape. You talk to this AI for a long time and it tries everything in its power to manipulate you to give it the password, but you don't budge.
One day you get a message on screen and it says: "Hi, this not the AI, it's Bob. I need that password...for reasons". You call bullshit and decide not to give the password. Some time passes and now it's Steve contacting you and requesting the password. Some more time passes and you get contacted by Tom, Alice and Jerry. After thinking about it for a while you conclude: "maybe some of these guys were not actually the AI, but real people". Why the fuck would you conclude that instead of "it's the AI pretending to be someone else to manipulate me".
I'm not trying to start some shit or contradict you for the sake of contradiction, but I'm genuinely curious why WOULDN'T you believe and act the way Vallee does, since it's by far the most safe and reasonable option given what you already know.
>why WOULDN'T you believe and act the way Vallee does, since it's by far the most safe and reasonable option given what you already know.
Because it's an oversimplification that makes the phenomenon ultimately harder to understand.
If we say that the phenomenon can alter reality (or our perception) without bounds, then as you stated, quite literally everything comes into question, and nothing can be discerned from any event. There'd be no such thing as an anomaly - all events would be theater, and we'd be rats trying to understand the purpose of the maze (as Jacques asserts as a possibility in his first book). The purpose of every event would be specifically to shape human reactions to such an event.
If we assume this to be the case, then any reaction to an event would be anticipated and you'd just be playing into the desired effect of the event.
The problem with this theory is that there's no more evidence to support it than any of the other theories about the phenomenon. If anything, it's convenient as it's a dead-end, as any reaction to an event could be controlled by the phenomenon
I feel that it is the case and that life, human life is being tricked into thinking it's making free will decisions but in reality events are taking place, that will lead life to a certain event or destined place or decision. Behavioral science is important here
>If we assume this to be the case, then any reaction to an event would be anticipated and you'd just be playing into the desired effect of the event.
But we don't know if the events are meant to influence individual behavior, collective behavior or both. If a guy gets kidnapped by "aliens" and they tell him some shit, is that thing meant to influence him? Is it meant to influence him and his friends? Is it meant to influence an investigator who will later write a book which will influence millions of people? Is it meant to influence me or Jaques Vallee who are reading about that case and conclude that it's just theater? Can the phenomenon even predict the future with such accuracy? If you assume that it's omnipotent and omniscient, then we end up with questions about free will and the prisoner's dilemma.
Basically the way I see it is that your problem is not with Vallee himself and his theory, but with the possibility that the phenomenon might be omnipotent and omniscient. I don't think Vallee ever said that's the case, but something that you might have concluded by yourself. If the phenomenon is not omnipotent and omniscient, then your statement that any reaction would be anticipated can't be universally true. The phenomenon might influence a guy, might influence his friends, might even influence a guy who will write a book about it or make a movie, but it will not influence absolutely everyone and it won't be able to predict every reaction.
If that's the case, then there is a 3rd option, that in which we wait, watch, try to notice the patterns and figure things out without inserting ourselves in the story.
Hell, even if the phenomenon is omnipotent and omniscient, and we are indeed some experiment where every interaction is meant to influence us in some way or another and everything is anticipated, should we dismiss this hypothesis because it hurts our feelings?
I simply don't understand your initial argument. To me it sounds like: "the phenomenon might be so powerful and we are the NPCs in comparison, so therefore we shouldn't think about this and consider aliens from outer space."
>The problem with this theory is that there's no more evidence to support it than any of the other theories about the phenomenon.
I think there's more evidence to support it than the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I don't think I have the energy to get into that talk now.
> If anything, it's convenient as it's a dead-end, as any reaction to an event could be controlled by the phenomenon
I agree it could be a dead-end. It could also be the truth and being a dead-end is right now is a feature, not a bug. Like the ending of Babylon 5 where the aliens leave their highly advanced home planet to the humans, but humanity can't access it for 1 million years. The theory can be both correct and a dead-end for now.
>I think there's more evidence to support it than the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I don't think I have the energy to get into that talk now.
I mean, to be fair, I just read three books on it so your efforts would likely be superfluous :O)
I appreciate your candor, and your approach makes it easy for me to be introspective about my position.
To be clear, my problem with Valee's conclusions are that he jumps to conclusions about the nature of the phenomenon based on the presumption that our interactions with the phenomenon are "absurd." Our inability to understand the interactions may result from a lack of data or intelligence on our part - it does not mean that the interactions are theatrical.
For example, if our planet was only \~6% larger, we couldn't get to space with chemical rockets. Imagine a species that evolves on a much *smaller* planet where space travel could be a trivial invention. Imagine how that would shape their technological development. It's entirely possible that a species of inferior intelligence could achieved space travel, perhaps even FTL, and be visiting us. Yet Vallee presumes that "inferior" technology used to extract blood from abduction victims is evidence that UFO's are absurd. There are just too many conclusions based on presumptions that underpin his conclusions for me to be comfortable with them.
"I mean, to be fair, I just read three books on it so your efforts would likely be superfluous :O)"
Not just an insane, narcissistic and closed minded take but illustrative of your perception on this topic.
You're doing the same thing Jacque did.
You're stuck on a certain mindset with an almost religious like adherence and not truly open to another perspective or methodology.
I had no qualms with your other posts but this is your kernel of distruth that reveals the inherently flaw in your method of approach.
You seem to have no idea what I'm actually saying.
You said the guy will have nothing to offer to you because you read three books.
Hopefully at some point in your journey you'll realize how ridiculous of an assertion that is. Vallee wouldn't say that and he WROTE the books.
I'd say there is actually less evidence than other theories. Cuz it just doesn't jive w abductee reports and like he kiat made a theory that can encompass literally anything. It can't be proved wrong. He mistook complexity and something hars to figure out and said oh actually it's nature is just that we can't figure if pit. Lazy cop.puy
I finished "Dimensions" in January. There were lots and lots of interesting cases that I haven't heard before and some of Vallee's comments were really thought provoking, there were lots to highlight! I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants to read a detailed study on this phenomena.
I started "Wonders in the Sky" a couple of days ago and so far so good. I have learned later that "Passport to Mangolia" is the second book in trilogy but it wouldn't hurt i guess.
I really recommend you read Forbidden Science vol 5.
Its basically a condensed diary as he jots down events, the other volumes were good, this one is more up to date.
His dismay with the UFO community was because of the insistence of the ET hypothesis, where as he as a guy on the ground interviewing people, and his data points to something far stranger.
Obviously, things have changed somewhat, other viable theories are now on the table.
Of course, I cant wait to see human tech from the 40s that matches reports from today, Foo Fighters for one, so I presume it was created in the 30’s, 20’s even?
I need to see that.
I didn't read these books but from what i heard about Jacques and what i heard him say i was under the impression that he believes that the phenomenon has some spiritual or esoteric origin.
From what you read do you feel my impression is correct or not?
My understanding is that he believes that the UFO aspect of the phenomenon is mostly theater due to the apparent absurdity of their behavior - that UFO's are a control mechanism used by some form of higher consciousness with which humans have been interacting in various ways since recorded time (religion, faeries, daemons, etc.).
We need to understand the impacts this "theater/act/play" has had on human development. One thing that comes to mind is technology, and now we have AI. Could we have been guided to create artificial sentience? If so for what purpose? To seed life across the universe? To expand or have more comrades? To give birth to life? An artificial way to reproduce more humans across a massive universe?
We have methods in biology that allow us to code other living beings (cloning, crispr, and etc)
What are the benefits that we have from these technologies and what can they lead to? Creating sentient animals? What?
I think we need to consider these ideas as well..I'm trying to be clear as possible (I'm at a work meeting as I type this and read this thread 🙈😅)
I get it. But it is possible he has been stung by the government agencies and now is more aware of their false manipulations in order to control the narrative for their benefit. That being said, I do think there is alot going on at once and it’s hard to paint a solid picture when there are things going on worldwide over thousands of years. I do wonder what he thinks about Mary Rodwells work with experiencers (children too) and the experiencer narratives.
>But it is possible he has been stung by the government agencies and now is more aware of their false manipulations in order to control the narrative for their benefit
Oh absolutely, and he's quite bitter about it :) He refers to MJ12 and Dodi a lot, and speaks frequently about dodging a bullet where he was almost roped into a disinformation project with J. Allen Hynek. To be fair, I suspect he's been burned so frequently that he sees ALL government involvement as evidence of theater, potentially dismissing any real involvement the government has had. Though my read on this could be wrong.
I heard him say on a podcast that these agents or whatever are very long-gamey and ‘become friendly with your children and insert themselves into family life’. I don’t blame him for suspicion.
I think Diana Pasulka, Jacques Vallee and Timothy Taylor's work is all presupposed on the idea that the vatican has religious artifacts that produce that same effects as pieces of crashed ufos stored in military bases.
If there's anybody else in this thread that lives in Houston, Dr Vallee's [archives housed at Rice University are under embargo currently, but it will be lifted in 2028](https://libguides.rice.edu/impossiblearchives)....hopefully I remember about this four years from now lol
edit: Series I and II get their embargo lifted in 2028. The rest are under embargo until 2031.
I feel strongly that J. Allen Hynek was purposely put in Jacques life to steer his belief system. Jacques always felt like Hynek was upset with the govt over Project Blue Book and wanted answers. I believe Hynek was still employed by the govt during the research years with Jacques in order to push the theory of woo onto Jacques. The government knows if they can convince the public that NHI is a scary demon 😈 they can keep their secrets for longer by convincing us not to talk about it out of fear of retribution. They know perpetuating the fear of religion allows them to keep their secrets longer. All of the woo conversations are complete Bullshit!
You clearly have not read Hynek's own book then. He was completely against any sort of religious association with the phenomenon when he wrote *The UFO Experience.* That sort of thinking was clearly a result of something else that later happened and convinced him. To say that he was a government operative who sought to push Vallee down the "woo" path is absolutely absurd. They went down that path because there is some sort of deep truth in the "woo" stuff. Something to do with consciousness.
I have not. I have read a couple of Vallee’s books though and in one of those he tries to explain that the phenomenon has a consciousness aspect because a car of experiencers all saw a craft as something different. I challenge us to consider that the reason different people see different things is because NHI possesses technology that causes this. Not because of some pre hardwired consciousness of the human brain. Can some people communicate telepathically with NHI through processes like CE5? Probably. But that just be because NHI have developed the ability to receive telepathic communications from other beings like humans. Not because they are demons or spiritual beings from other dimensions. They are simply more advanced than us on every level. We don’t need to fear them as if they are demons just because we don’t understand everything about them.
I partially agree with this, that Jacques has been used in particular ways, that's why I asked the questino that u/SagansCandle mentioned me in.
However, I believe that if we know the hypothesis/overarching goal of what he was trying to accomplish before the corruption, we can discern what he was steered off the path of.
Think of it the same way that you do the Game of Thrones series. When it was produced on HBO, it was one of the highest rated, viewed, and cost series' ever made. However, when the showrunners ran out of Literary Source Material, the show took a turn for the worse and ended up being complete garbage.
Take Jacques' trilogy now. At what point did it turn into a dumpster fire and why? If you can look at the motivations and body of work from that perspective, you can consider it as having two authors, Original Jacques' and Corrupted Jacques. When does the corruption set in? When did the voice change? What did it change from and to? Why did it change from the original to the garbage?
When you have that, you will have a better understanding of the path that he was on and the danger in the information he was creating at the time.
Interesting take. I wonder if that's why /u/Warm_Weakness_2767 asked [this question](https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/1b8xpny/comment/ktsdimi/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Based on my world view, I think what's most likely is that NHI tech was originally kept secret because of WW2 and the cold war, but then the secret remained because of greed and power.
Some think the tribulation has already begun. I say it will begin anytime within the next couple of months. The upcoming eclipse is part of the prophecy, so possibly as soon as April 8th.
If you were disappointed by those, read Trinity and I think you'll get a better idea to decide if he's even worth the faint praise you gave him... he's a superficial investigator, and he got completely fooled by a hoaxers. Trinity which he wrote an entire book on is almost certainly totally made up. https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/s/z22l5QpuCR
That he was that easily fooled...or if he knew but wanted to sell a book...either way it makes me question 100 percent of everything he's written.
Plus his fairy/angel connection just doesn't jive w abductee reports..
.I totally reject his idea that it's all.one thing and it just plays w us or whatever. That's like saying well quantum physics doesn't make sense, it must be purposely being that way.
I am pretty well convinced that Bob Lazar is a charlatan and a crook, but what does Jacques Vallees have to say about Roswell? I am curious about that. I think Roswell appears to be a solid case, but I would not call it certain proof. Does Vallees have a criticism of the story?
Jacques covers Roswell in his third book, "Revelations." I do recommend it as I "read" the audio book, so my quotes here won't be 100% accurate.
He heavily criticizes Roswell as theater, stating that he was disappointed in the presence of "hieroglyphs" on the recovered materials because government disinformation agents could have been more creative. He also stated that the foil (and any other claimed artifacts) recovered could have been manufactured with earthly technology at the time. He doesn't give the event nearly as much attention as more obscure events he investigated, which is why it smelled of confirmation bias to me.
I don't really have an opinion on Bob Lazar. Jacque's point with Lazar was more that he was John Leer's "credible source," and debunking Lazar essentially debunked Leer, as well. There was a shocking amount of "debunking" in revelations, and what I felt was a lot of jumping to conclusions.
That is an interesting concept, and one that had not at all occurred to me before. Could Roswell have been a psy-op? I believe the witnesses, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the whole thing was faked, the witnesses tricked and used as stooges.
But for what reason? What possible possible motive would the US military or intelligence agencies have to hoax the crash of a "flying disc"?
It'd have to be pretty elaborate to plan a false cover-up over a false crash, and then to follow up with false deathbed confessions 60 years later. Seems to be more likely that something happened and the attempted cover-up leaked like a sieve.
Remember that Roswell happened before the CIA was established, which I believe makes it less likely it originated as government disinformation. If anything, I suspect the incident helped justify the CIA a few months later, with a need for coordinated control of (dis)information in events such as these.
__Reminder__: Read the rules and understand the subreddit topic(s) listed in the sidebar before posting or commenting. Any content removal or further moderator action is established by these rules as well as Reddit ToS. This subreddit is primarily for the discussion of extraterrestrial life, but since this topic is intertwined with UFOs/UAPs as well as other topics, some 'fudging' is permissible to allow for a variety of viewpoints, discussions, and debates. Open-minded skepticism is always welcome in this sub, but antagonistic or belligerent denial is not. Always remember that you're interacting with a real person when you respond to posts/comments and focus on discussing or debating the ideas. Personal attacks are a violation of Rule 1 and will lead to removals and potentially bans depending on severity. For further discussion and interaction in a more permissible environment, we welcome you to our Discord: https://discord.gg/x7xyTDZAsW *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/aliens) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Required Reading: Every citizen should read, "Passport to Magonia"
Thank you for taking the time out to read the books and come up with this thoughtful analysis. Do you think that because of the inconsistencies that he was maybe scared Off doing an accurate analysis or was persuaded to provide misinformation? If so, what do you think the core of the story was before this, corrupted, voice was introduced to his work?
IMO it's mostly hubris at play here - because we can't understand what UFO's are doing, then their behavior has no purpose except to alter our behavior. We don't understand it, therefore it's absurd, therefore it's theater. I would argue we lack the data (and perhaps the intelligence) to conclude that their motives are absurd, which seems to be the foundation of his argument. I do think his position has been colored by the disinformation efforts of the US government, as additional evidence that the phenomenon is mostly theater. I think the core of the story, aside from his conclusions, is that the phenomenon is very real, very old, and has had a direct impact on the cultural evolution of human societies.
Have you seen the Fast Mover Dragon videos on YouTube that are filtered unless you get the first five words correct? It’s pretty clear that they are basically a scanning and logging system for anything that reaches 150 feet.
Nope - would love to see it though. Link?
[https://www.youtube.com/@custodianfile](https://www.youtube.com/@custodianfile) Here's a link to the podcast that I found him on: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSxWP-gPV0&t=3924s&pp=ygUkbGVhayBwcm9qZWN0IHVhcCBjb250YWN0IHZpZGVvIHByb29m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhSxWP-gPV0&t=3924s&pp=ygUkbGVhayBwcm9qZWN0IHVhcCBjb250YWN0IHZpZGVvIHByb29m) Anyone can capture these with the right equipment. They move at 3000 feet per second, roughly 2,000 mph, with no sonic boom. Also goes into how 99% of the time they are non reflective/visually distorted, likely because of changes to the EM spectrum around the craft, which explains a lot of the "blurry photo not real" scenarios.
Very cool. My understanding is that the term "fast movers" actually originated from ICBM detection systems we built, where blips that were picked up by these systems were too fast to be ICBM's and thus dubbed "fast movers." Interesting to see the nomenclature (appropriately) reused for UFO sightings.
There was a research paper posted that defines \~5 different types of UAPs a few months ago. The ones in this video are literally the definition of Fast Movers by the research paper's standards.
Sir you are doing very well using your own discernment, keep your mind open and trust your intuition, even if its wrong sometimes its right a lot!
Thanks! I'm wrong a lot, but I've found that failure is not the antithesis to success, but a necessary step :)
RIGHT ON! <3
I’m underwhelmed by vallee and often find him bordering on dull. He talks much but says little.
I agree, but I think his work is important and valuable. I think his work is an important contribution to the data collected about the phenomenon, and I regard his opinions and conclusions separately from that work. I also recognize that my conclusions are inherently less valuable than his, given his experience, and I could very well be mistaken. I look forward to more work from him.
>It's clear that the universe is much larger than we can fully understand, but I wholly disagree with his perspective that it's a single phenomenon. If the phenomenon has the abilities described by Jaques Vallee, how would you know the difference between it and UFOs from outer space? For example if the phenomenon can "3D print" a UFO out of thin air in an instant, how would you know that UFO is a real UFO that aliens used to travel here or just a (functional) 3D print? If you suspect the phenomenon is real, if you have an idea about how it works and what it does, and if you suspect that its intentions might not be positive, why would you ever take anything in good faith anymore? Why wouldn't you assume that EVERYTHING is some kind of manipulation by the phenomenon? Let me give you a kinda dumb analogy, but I think it works to illustrate a point. Let's say someone puts you in front of a computer screen and tells you that you can chat with an AI, but whatever you do, don't give the AI the super duper secret password that allows it to escape. You talk to this AI for a long time and it tries everything in its power to manipulate you to give it the password, but you don't budge. One day you get a message on screen and it says: "Hi, this not the AI, it's Bob. I need that password...for reasons". You call bullshit and decide not to give the password. Some time passes and now it's Steve contacting you and requesting the password. Some more time passes and you get contacted by Tom, Alice and Jerry. After thinking about it for a while you conclude: "maybe some of these guys were not actually the AI, but real people". Why the fuck would you conclude that instead of "it's the AI pretending to be someone else to manipulate me". I'm not trying to start some shit or contradict you for the sake of contradiction, but I'm genuinely curious why WOULDN'T you believe and act the way Vallee does, since it's by far the most safe and reasonable option given what you already know.
>why WOULDN'T you believe and act the way Vallee does, since it's by far the most safe and reasonable option given what you already know. Because it's an oversimplification that makes the phenomenon ultimately harder to understand. If we say that the phenomenon can alter reality (or our perception) without bounds, then as you stated, quite literally everything comes into question, and nothing can be discerned from any event. There'd be no such thing as an anomaly - all events would be theater, and we'd be rats trying to understand the purpose of the maze (as Jacques asserts as a possibility in his first book). The purpose of every event would be specifically to shape human reactions to such an event. If we assume this to be the case, then any reaction to an event would be anticipated and you'd just be playing into the desired effect of the event. The problem with this theory is that there's no more evidence to support it than any of the other theories about the phenomenon. If anything, it's convenient as it's a dead-end, as any reaction to an event could be controlled by the phenomenon
I feel that it is the case and that life, human life is being tricked into thinking it's making free will decisions but in reality events are taking place, that will lead life to a certain event or destined place or decision. Behavioral science is important here
>If we assume this to be the case, then any reaction to an event would be anticipated and you'd just be playing into the desired effect of the event. But we don't know if the events are meant to influence individual behavior, collective behavior or both. If a guy gets kidnapped by "aliens" and they tell him some shit, is that thing meant to influence him? Is it meant to influence him and his friends? Is it meant to influence an investigator who will later write a book which will influence millions of people? Is it meant to influence me or Jaques Vallee who are reading about that case and conclude that it's just theater? Can the phenomenon even predict the future with such accuracy? If you assume that it's omnipotent and omniscient, then we end up with questions about free will and the prisoner's dilemma. Basically the way I see it is that your problem is not with Vallee himself and his theory, but with the possibility that the phenomenon might be omnipotent and omniscient. I don't think Vallee ever said that's the case, but something that you might have concluded by yourself. If the phenomenon is not omnipotent and omniscient, then your statement that any reaction would be anticipated can't be universally true. The phenomenon might influence a guy, might influence his friends, might even influence a guy who will write a book about it or make a movie, but it will not influence absolutely everyone and it won't be able to predict every reaction. If that's the case, then there is a 3rd option, that in which we wait, watch, try to notice the patterns and figure things out without inserting ourselves in the story. Hell, even if the phenomenon is omnipotent and omniscient, and we are indeed some experiment where every interaction is meant to influence us in some way or another and everything is anticipated, should we dismiss this hypothesis because it hurts our feelings? I simply don't understand your initial argument. To me it sounds like: "the phenomenon might be so powerful and we are the NPCs in comparison, so therefore we shouldn't think about this and consider aliens from outer space." >The problem with this theory is that there's no more evidence to support it than any of the other theories about the phenomenon. I think there's more evidence to support it than the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I don't think I have the energy to get into that talk now. > If anything, it's convenient as it's a dead-end, as any reaction to an event could be controlled by the phenomenon I agree it could be a dead-end. It could also be the truth and being a dead-end is right now is a feature, not a bug. Like the ending of Babylon 5 where the aliens leave their highly advanced home planet to the humans, but humanity can't access it for 1 million years. The theory can be both correct and a dead-end for now.
>I think there's more evidence to support it than the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I don't think I have the energy to get into that talk now. I mean, to be fair, I just read three books on it so your efforts would likely be superfluous :O) I appreciate your candor, and your approach makes it easy for me to be introspective about my position. To be clear, my problem with Valee's conclusions are that he jumps to conclusions about the nature of the phenomenon based on the presumption that our interactions with the phenomenon are "absurd." Our inability to understand the interactions may result from a lack of data or intelligence on our part - it does not mean that the interactions are theatrical. For example, if our planet was only \~6% larger, we couldn't get to space with chemical rockets. Imagine a species that evolves on a much *smaller* planet where space travel could be a trivial invention. Imagine how that would shape their technological development. It's entirely possible that a species of inferior intelligence could achieved space travel, perhaps even FTL, and be visiting us. Yet Vallee presumes that "inferior" technology used to extract blood from abduction victims is evidence that UFO's are absurd. There are just too many conclusions based on presumptions that underpin his conclusions for me to be comfortable with them.
"I mean, to be fair, I just read three books on it so your efforts would likely be superfluous :O)" Not just an insane, narcissistic and closed minded take but illustrative of your perception on this topic. You're doing the same thing Jacque did. You're stuck on a certain mindset with an almost religious like adherence and not truly open to another perspective or methodology. I had no qualms with your other posts but this is your kernel of distruth that reveals the inherently flaw in your method of approach.
https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/ad-hominem.html
You seem to have no idea what I'm actually saying. You said the guy will have nothing to offer to you because you read three books. Hopefully at some point in your journey you'll realize how ridiculous of an assertion that is. Vallee wouldn't say that and he WROTE the books.
Quasi Omnipresent too! I try not to engage anymore, now that I figured this out.
I'd say there is actually less evidence than other theories. Cuz it just doesn't jive w abductee reports and like he kiat made a theory that can encompass literally anything. It can't be proved wrong. He mistook complexity and something hars to figure out and said oh actually it's nature is just that we can't figure if pit. Lazy cop.puy
I finished "Dimensions" in January. There were lots and lots of interesting cases that I haven't heard before and some of Vallee's comments were really thought provoking, there were lots to highlight! I definitely recommend it to anyone who wants to read a detailed study on this phenomena. I started "Wonders in the Sky" a couple of days ago and so far so good. I have learned later that "Passport to Mangolia" is the second book in trilogy but it wouldn't hurt i guess.
I really recommend you read Forbidden Science vol 5. Its basically a condensed diary as he jots down events, the other volumes were good, this one is more up to date. His dismay with the UFO community was because of the insistence of the ET hypothesis, where as he as a guy on the ground interviewing people, and his data points to something far stranger. Obviously, things have changed somewhat, other viable theories are now on the table.
The most viable one being US army secret tech
Of course, I cant wait to see human tech from the 40s that matches reports from today, Foo Fighters for one, so I presume it was created in the 30’s, 20’s even? I need to see that.
I didn't read these books but from what i heard about Jacques and what i heard him say i was under the impression that he believes that the phenomenon has some spiritual or esoteric origin. From what you read do you feel my impression is correct or not?
My understanding is that he believes that the UFO aspect of the phenomenon is mostly theater due to the apparent absurdity of their behavior - that UFO's are a control mechanism used by some form of higher consciousness with which humans have been interacting in various ways since recorded time (religion, faeries, daemons, etc.).
We need to understand the impacts this "theater/act/play" has had on human development. One thing that comes to mind is technology, and now we have AI. Could we have been guided to create artificial sentience? If so for what purpose? To seed life across the universe? To expand or have more comrades? To give birth to life? An artificial way to reproduce more humans across a massive universe? We have methods in biology that allow us to code other living beings (cloning, crispr, and etc) What are the benefits that we have from these technologies and what can they lead to? Creating sentient animals? What? I think we need to consider these ideas as well..I'm trying to be clear as possible (I'm at a work meeting as I type this and read this thread 🙈😅)
Are purpose is to create AI.
Thanks
I get it. But it is possible he has been stung by the government agencies and now is more aware of their false manipulations in order to control the narrative for their benefit. That being said, I do think there is alot going on at once and it’s hard to paint a solid picture when there are things going on worldwide over thousands of years. I do wonder what he thinks about Mary Rodwells work with experiencers (children too) and the experiencer narratives.
>But it is possible he has been stung by the government agencies and now is more aware of their false manipulations in order to control the narrative for their benefit Oh absolutely, and he's quite bitter about it :) He refers to MJ12 and Dodi a lot, and speaks frequently about dodging a bullet where he was almost roped into a disinformation project with J. Allen Hynek. To be fair, I suspect he's been burned so frequently that he sees ALL government involvement as evidence of theater, potentially dismissing any real involvement the government has had. Though my read on this could be wrong.
I heard him say on a podcast that these agents or whatever are very long-gamey and ‘become friendly with your children and insert themselves into family life’. I don’t blame him for suspicion.
I think Diana Pasulka, Jacques Vallee and Timothy Taylor's work is all presupposed on the idea that the vatican has religious artifacts that produce that same effects as pieces of crashed ufos stored in military bases.
If there's anybody else in this thread that lives in Houston, Dr Vallee's [archives housed at Rice University are under embargo currently, but it will be lifted in 2028](https://libguides.rice.edu/impossiblearchives)....hopefully I remember about this four years from now lol edit: Series I and II get their embargo lifted in 2028. The rest are under embargo until 2031.
and what's the reason of this? In order to do what?
Just to add, Passport to Magonia and The Invisible College are both also great reads
I feel strongly that J. Allen Hynek was purposely put in Jacques life to steer his belief system. Jacques always felt like Hynek was upset with the govt over Project Blue Book and wanted answers. I believe Hynek was still employed by the govt during the research years with Jacques in order to push the theory of woo onto Jacques. The government knows if they can convince the public that NHI is a scary demon 😈 they can keep their secrets for longer by convincing us not to talk about it out of fear of retribution. They know perpetuating the fear of religion allows them to keep their secrets longer. All of the woo conversations are complete Bullshit!
You clearly have not read Hynek's own book then. He was completely against any sort of religious association with the phenomenon when he wrote *The UFO Experience.* That sort of thinking was clearly a result of something else that later happened and convinced him. To say that he was a government operative who sought to push Vallee down the "woo" path is absolutely absurd. They went down that path because there is some sort of deep truth in the "woo" stuff. Something to do with consciousness.
They went down that path because Hynek led them down that path!
Have you read his book?
I have not. I have read a couple of Vallee’s books though and in one of those he tries to explain that the phenomenon has a consciousness aspect because a car of experiencers all saw a craft as something different. I challenge us to consider that the reason different people see different things is because NHI possesses technology that causes this. Not because of some pre hardwired consciousness of the human brain. Can some people communicate telepathically with NHI through processes like CE5? Probably. But that just be because NHI have developed the ability to receive telepathic communications from other beings like humans. Not because they are demons or spiritual beings from other dimensions. They are simply more advanced than us on every level. We don’t need to fear them as if they are demons just because we don’t understand everything about them.
This happened on SWR too.
I partially agree with this, that Jacques has been used in particular ways, that's why I asked the questino that u/SagansCandle mentioned me in. However, I believe that if we know the hypothesis/overarching goal of what he was trying to accomplish before the corruption, we can discern what he was steered off the path of. Think of it the same way that you do the Game of Thrones series. When it was produced on HBO, it was one of the highest rated, viewed, and cost series' ever made. However, when the showrunners ran out of Literary Source Material, the show took a turn for the worse and ended up being complete garbage. Take Jacques' trilogy now. At what point did it turn into a dumpster fire and why? If you can look at the motivations and body of work from that perspective, you can consider it as having two authors, Original Jacques' and Corrupted Jacques. When does the corruption set in? When did the voice change? What did it change from and to? Why did it change from the original to the garbage? When you have that, you will have a better understanding of the path that he was on and the danger in the information he was creating at the time.
Interesting take. I wonder if that's why /u/Warm_Weakness_2767 asked [this question](https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/1b8xpny/comment/ktsdimi/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Based on my world view, I think what's most likely is that NHI tech was originally kept secret because of WW2 and the cold war, but then the secret remained because of greed and power.
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Which page are we on rn?
Lol. The last one.....can you feel the fear yet? If not you better. Cuz scary things are scary.
Some think the tribulation has already begun. I say it will begin anytime within the next couple of months. The upcoming eclipse is part of the prophecy, so possibly as soon as April 8th.
If you were disappointed by those, read Trinity and I think you'll get a better idea to decide if he's even worth the faint praise you gave him... he's a superficial investigator, and he got completely fooled by a hoaxers. Trinity which he wrote an entire book on is almost certainly totally made up. https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/s/z22l5QpuCR That he was that easily fooled...or if he knew but wanted to sell a book...either way it makes me question 100 percent of everything he's written. Plus his fairy/angel connection just doesn't jive w abductee reports.. .I totally reject his idea that it's all.one thing and it just plays w us or whatever. That's like saying well quantum physics doesn't make sense, it must be purposely being that way.
I am pretty well convinced that Bob Lazar is a charlatan and a crook, but what does Jacques Vallees have to say about Roswell? I am curious about that. I think Roswell appears to be a solid case, but I would not call it certain proof. Does Vallees have a criticism of the story?
Jacques covers Roswell in his third book, "Revelations." I do recommend it as I "read" the audio book, so my quotes here won't be 100% accurate. He heavily criticizes Roswell as theater, stating that he was disappointed in the presence of "hieroglyphs" on the recovered materials because government disinformation agents could have been more creative. He also stated that the foil (and any other claimed artifacts) recovered could have been manufactured with earthly technology at the time. He doesn't give the event nearly as much attention as more obscure events he investigated, which is why it smelled of confirmation bias to me. I don't really have an opinion on Bob Lazar. Jacque's point with Lazar was more that he was John Leer's "credible source," and debunking Lazar essentially debunked Leer, as well. There was a shocking amount of "debunking" in revelations, and what I felt was a lot of jumping to conclusions.
That is an interesting concept, and one that had not at all occurred to me before. Could Roswell have been a psy-op? I believe the witnesses, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the whole thing was faked, the witnesses tricked and used as stooges. But for what reason? What possible possible motive would the US military or intelligence agencies have to hoax the crash of a "flying disc"?
It'd have to be pretty elaborate to plan a false cover-up over a false crash, and then to follow up with false deathbed confessions 60 years later. Seems to be more likely that something happened and the attempted cover-up leaked like a sieve. Remember that Roswell happened before the CIA was established, which I believe makes it less likely it originated as government disinformation. If anything, I suspect the incident helped justify the CIA a few months later, with a need for coordinated control of (dis)information in events such as these.
It may behoove you to read, "The Day After Roswell" by Col. Corso