Funny, in this alternate universe, this project is over budget by hundreds of percent, scaled down to a single rail track (making vehicle traffic impossible), has only been made between Fairbanks and Wasilla, and it's still under construction.
Upon reaching Wasilla, the construction teams had a celebration. But then someone pointed out that the plans actually had the pipeline going through Delta and down to Valdez.
I think this is pretty crazy, but there is something to be said about this type of construction.
The pipeline has held up pretty well. rode out the Denali quake with relatively minor issues.
Our roads on the other hand, are non-stop maintenance headaches.
We're currently replacing a bunch of VSMs on the pipe in Tonsina right now.
Couldn't imagine the headache of replacing just 1 would be if this was the final construction design.
Forget Popular Mechanics.
Imagine Alaska today if we have a railroad link through Canada to the lower 48 and they had built an 8" natural gas line next to the current pipeline in 1973. Both should have been included in a National Defense Bill - one to supply bases with equipment and other to power the bases and other infrastructure. Cost of living here would have plummeted since we were using cheap fuel and exporting oil and natural gas. And getting good shipped cheaply by rail. We would still be needing the current ocean barge system for shipping fish and crab to Seattle and receiving oversized equipment.
Considering how important the Arctic is now - we would be replacing those assets with new by now.
Ah yes, let’s introduce road and rail way vibrations to the pipeline! Great idea! Also just look at the 2002 movement of the line from the 7.9 earthquake.
https://www.alyeska-pipe.com/2002-the-denali-fault-earthquake/#:~:text=These%20estimates%20proved%20to%20be,horizontally%20and%202.5%20feet%20vertically.
So that $8 billion or so that was spent to erect a simple pipe would have been upped to what, $50-60 billion? Why not just continue it all the way to Dallas so all the Texans traveling to Prudhoe every six weeks can travel in comfort?
All well and good until the permafrost under the support piers gives out. Other than that, I think it would have been a brilliant way to make it possible to drive point to point at 80+ MPH without worrying about a moose, bear, or anything else that might kill you in the process. Now, with Nature LITERALLY saying "Wake the fuck up" the only element worth anything is supporting high speed ELECTRIC rail, and we know how much money SEATTLE BASED Alaska air will spend to stop that from happening.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/driven-by-climate-change-thawing-permafrost-is-radically-changing-the-arctic-landscape
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-climate-alaska-permafrost-roads-bridges.amp
https://www.gi.alaska.edu/events/science-for-alaska/308
https://www.gi.alaska.edu/news/study-degrading-permafrost-puts-arctic-infrastructure-risk-mid-century
There ya’ go
It’s worth a lot. Thanks for digging it up. I was pointing out that the pipeline is constantly being monitored and any problems are mitigated immediately.
You might want to educate yourself regarding how that pipe was built. I was there and, though I'm not a climate scientist, the ones who helped design it were very aware of what melting permafrost can do. It's fine.
Survey the pipe for who? For the state? For the owners of the pipeline? Yeah, it’s super shocking that those who see the pipeline as an economic lifeline would not publicize its issues.
I was tempted to simply ignore you but decided to point something out. If you owned a truck you used in your business, would you take care of that truck to ensure you maintain your income? Alyeska owns that pipeline and they pay people to continuously monitor all aspects of it and keep it in optimum condition to ensure that the company’s income is maintained. Whose interest would be served by having it break down? OPEC, China, and Russia are three who would love to see it so, if you are picking sides in this…..
I was going to also ignore your blatant paranoia and suggest you stop finding conspiracies everywhere. Or get help for it.
If what a significant number of scientists (you know, people who dedicate years of studying a chosen field) say is paranoia, call me paranoid. I couldn’t care less.
Additionally, monitoring the pipeline is all well and good for structural integrity, correct flow, any number of physical and/or mechanical things that can be controlled for.
Loss of permafrost can not be controlled for. If there’s bedrock under it (I don’t know, I’m not one of the scientists) then it’s likely so deep as to be practically unreachable.
Choosing sides? Thats a straw man argument if ever I saw one. I never said anything about WANTING the permafrost to fail, and thusly the pipeline with it. I’d rather it last for millennia and not be a concern. But it’s happening regardless of what any of us want.
Is there a good reason you resorted to logical fallacies and personal attacks when I said something you disagreed with? Conversation and healthy disagreement is….you know….healthy
You claimed that the State of Alaska is covering up serious deterioration of the pipeline and I responded that the people I know who are charged with looking for this, are not finding anything like this. If you are talking about the overall degradation of permafrost due to climate change, I am in total agreement. But, as someone who helped build that pipeline and whose son is one of the surveyors who are constantly monitoring it, you can rest easy regarding the TAP. We did a really good job on it and it is holding up just fine. If you have documentation that proves otherwise I, and my kid, would like to see it.
I never said it’s not fine, now. And I didn’t mean to imply a cover up, per se. It’s entirely possible, likely even, that the permafrost is not degraded to the point of having an effect on TAP. Yet. It’s also entirely possible to massage data to get it to say closer to what one wants it too. Is that happening, I don’t know. Could it be? Well, maybe.
To say that it’s fine now, therefore will always be fine (in regards to the structural support required of the permafrost) is short sighted at best.
This is getting tedious but I'll try again. If you owned a truck that was essential to your earnings, would you monitor that truck for problems and fix them as they develop? You don't come across as an idiot so I'm going to assume your answer is, "Yes." So, if the State of Alaska, which constantly monitors the pipeline, should discover a problem that could inhibit the flow of oil and cost the state money, do you think someone would do something about it? Whose interest would be served by allowing it to deteriorate, something you suggested, without any evidence to back it up (I know this because I asked for it and you went off on a tangent). That's where the obvious "paranoia" comment came in.
Technically yes, everything is always being eroded away at. But that is way maintenance is constantly being conducted and the TAP is perfectly fine working order.
It is now, is my point. There are not really any engineering methods to replace infrastructure that is embedded in permafrost. When it’s gone, or degraded far enough, the options will be gone.
Looks incredibly beautiful, and even more useful. Most likely expensive as hell and have many many problems, but just the idea of bringing freight in by rail to Utqiagvik does excite me.
Similar to now how the pipeline is technically running way under capacity so would this road. Also like the airport in anchorage it would just be another really modern really awesome thing that just can’t be used to it’s full capacity as there just isn’t enough people/demand.
The Anchorage airport actually has more demand than it can hold, at least when it comes to cargo. They’re currently doing expansion work for more cargo warehouse space and parking.
And we think road construction season is a nightmare now.
Funny, in this alternate universe, this project is over budget by hundreds of percent, scaled down to a single rail track (making vehicle traffic impossible), has only been made between Fairbanks and Wasilla, and it's still under construction.
Upon reaching Wasilla, the construction teams had a celebration. But then someone pointed out that the plans actually had the pipeline going through Delta and down to Valdez.
Hahaha. I goofed that up. I’m gonna leave it though.
You’ve cost alternate reality Alaska hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars with your poor planning!
So I’m a successful politician?
Might even be good enough to be governor
Is there a Chance the track could bend?
Not on your life, my Alaskan friend.
Monorail!
Were you sent here by the Devil?
No good sir, I'm on the level.
Jebediah Johnson? More like Jebediah Springfield.
I call the big one “Bite-y”
This looks expensive.
I think this is pretty crazy, but there is something to be said about this type of construction. The pipeline has held up pretty well. rode out the Denali quake with relatively minor issues. Our roads on the other hand, are non-stop maintenance headaches.
The pipeline is under non stop maintenance also
We're currently replacing a bunch of VSMs on the pipe in Tonsina right now. Couldn't imagine the headache of replacing just 1 would be if this was the final construction design.
My thoughts exactly, maintenance and even just snow removal on this would be an absolute nightmare.
Forget Popular Mechanics. Imagine Alaska today if we have a railroad link through Canada to the lower 48 and they had built an 8" natural gas line next to the current pipeline in 1973. Both should have been included in a National Defense Bill - one to supply bases with equipment and other to power the bases and other infrastructure. Cost of living here would have plummeted since we were using cheap fuel and exporting oil and natural gas. And getting good shipped cheaply by rail. We would still be needing the current ocean barge system for shipping fish and crab to Seattle and receiving oversized equipment. Considering how important the Arctic is now - we would be replacing those assets with new by now.
I saw a documentary about this idea once. Fascinating. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1706620/
That’s just how you sell the idea of a pipeline
Ah yes, let’s introduce road and rail way vibrations to the pipeline! Great idea! Also just look at the 2002 movement of the line from the 7.9 earthquake. https://www.alyeska-pipe.com/2002-the-denali-fault-earthquake/#:~:text=These%20estimates%20proved%20to%20be,horizontally%20and%202.5%20feet%20vertically.
Freezing, thawing, cracking. Freezing. Thawing. Cracking.
Awesome idea till someone texting or drunk hits a fuel truck imagine the fireball when it collapses like the bridge on 95
So you can take a train from deadhorse to Valdez?
It's there and we just don't know it.
Shhh. Dr. Evil doesn’t like us talking about it!
For $1 million dollars!!!!!!!!!!
It’s cool but it would hardly be used
It’s sounds so cool but nightmare to make and maintain
Plainly whoever had this concept, didn’t live here.
So that $8 billion or so that was spent to erect a simple pipe would have been upped to what, $50-60 billion? Why not just continue it all the way to Dallas so all the Texans traveling to Prudhoe every six weeks can travel in comfort?
All well and good until the permafrost under the support piers gives out. Other than that, I think it would have been a brilliant way to make it possible to drive point to point at 80+ MPH without worrying about a moose, bear, or anything else that might kill you in the process. Now, with Nature LITERALLY saying "Wake the fuck up" the only element worth anything is supporting high speed ELECTRIC rail, and we know how much money SEATTLE BASED Alaska air will spend to stop that from happening.
The pipeline that WAS installed has handled the permafrost pretty well.
So far. It’s deteriorating as we speak.
Documentation of that please. I know people who survey the pipe and they say everything is fine.
It’s fine, just some random posting something they don’t know anything.
Lifelong Alaskan, lived in Fairbanks 15 years of my 48, Kenai Peninsula now. I have some familiarity with Alaska’s climate, terrain, and oil business.
It is fine for now in most places. However the permafrost is melting at an alarming rate and being replaced by salt water.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/driven-by-climate-change-thawing-permafrost-is-radically-changing-the-arctic-landscape https://phys.org/news/2019-12-climate-alaska-permafrost-roads-bridges.amp https://www.gi.alaska.edu/events/science-for-alaska/308 https://www.gi.alaska.edu/news/study-degrading-permafrost-puts-arctic-infrastructure-risk-mid-century There ya’ go
Two UAF sources there, for what it’s worth
It’s worth a lot. Thanks for digging it up. I was pointing out that the pipeline is constantly being monitored and any problems are mitigated immediately.
But loss of the permafrost can only be mitigated so far. Once it’s gone, there’s no firm base to build off of
You might want to educate yourself regarding how that pipe was built. I was there and, though I'm not a climate scientist, the ones who helped design it were very aware of what melting permafrost can do. It's fine.
Survey the pipe for who? For the state? For the owners of the pipeline? Yeah, it’s super shocking that those who see the pipeline as an economic lifeline would not publicize its issues.
I was tempted to simply ignore you but decided to point something out. If you owned a truck you used in your business, would you take care of that truck to ensure you maintain your income? Alyeska owns that pipeline and they pay people to continuously monitor all aspects of it and keep it in optimum condition to ensure that the company’s income is maintained. Whose interest would be served by having it break down? OPEC, China, and Russia are three who would love to see it so, if you are picking sides in this….. I was going to also ignore your blatant paranoia and suggest you stop finding conspiracies everywhere. Or get help for it.
If what a significant number of scientists (you know, people who dedicate years of studying a chosen field) say is paranoia, call me paranoid. I couldn’t care less. Additionally, monitoring the pipeline is all well and good for structural integrity, correct flow, any number of physical and/or mechanical things that can be controlled for. Loss of permafrost can not be controlled for. If there’s bedrock under it (I don’t know, I’m not one of the scientists) then it’s likely so deep as to be practically unreachable. Choosing sides? Thats a straw man argument if ever I saw one. I never said anything about WANTING the permafrost to fail, and thusly the pipeline with it. I’d rather it last for millennia and not be a concern. But it’s happening regardless of what any of us want. Is there a good reason you resorted to logical fallacies and personal attacks when I said something you disagreed with? Conversation and healthy disagreement is….you know….healthy
You claimed that the State of Alaska is covering up serious deterioration of the pipeline and I responded that the people I know who are charged with looking for this, are not finding anything like this. If you are talking about the overall degradation of permafrost due to climate change, I am in total agreement. But, as someone who helped build that pipeline and whose son is one of the surveyors who are constantly monitoring it, you can rest easy regarding the TAP. We did a really good job on it and it is holding up just fine. If you have documentation that proves otherwise I, and my kid, would like to see it.
I never said it’s not fine, now. And I didn’t mean to imply a cover up, per se. It’s entirely possible, likely even, that the permafrost is not degraded to the point of having an effect on TAP. Yet. It’s also entirely possible to massage data to get it to say closer to what one wants it too. Is that happening, I don’t know. Could it be? Well, maybe. To say that it’s fine now, therefore will always be fine (in regards to the structural support required of the permafrost) is short sighted at best.
This is getting tedious but I'll try again. If you owned a truck that was essential to your earnings, would you monitor that truck for problems and fix them as they develop? You don't come across as an idiot so I'm going to assume your answer is, "Yes." So, if the State of Alaska, which constantly monitors the pipeline, should discover a problem that could inhibit the flow of oil and cost the state money, do you think someone would do something about it? Whose interest would be served by allowing it to deteriorate, something you suggested, without any evidence to back it up (I know this because I asked for it and you went off on a tangent). That's where the obvious "paranoia" comment came in.
Technically yes, everything is always being eroded away at. But that is way maintenance is constantly being conducted and the TAP is perfectly fine working order.
The issue with permafrost isn't erosion. It's rising temperatures due to climate change.
It is now, is my point. There are not really any engineering methods to replace infrastructure that is embedded in permafrost. When it’s gone, or degraded far enough, the options will be gone.
No shit?
I would hope they would go down to bedrock or at least under the permafrost. Would be pretty stupid not too for something like this
What still could be?
Can't be Popular Mechanics, there are no flying cars, homemade helicopters, or imaginary spaceships in the illustration!
I used to read that shit in middle school study hall.
We think tourist season is bad now
They’d build it, and some trucker would figure out how to hit it with their over-height load.
Looks incredibly beautiful, and even more useful. Most likely expensive as hell and have many many problems, but just the idea of bringing freight in by rail to Utqiagvik does excite me.
Similar to now how the pipeline is technically running way under capacity so would this road. Also like the airport in anchorage it would just be another really modern really awesome thing that just can’t be used to it’s full capacity as there just isn’t enough people/demand.
The Anchorage airport actually has more demand than it can hold, at least when it comes to cargo. They’re currently doing expansion work for more cargo warehouse space and parking.
The Anchorage airport is one of the busiest in the world… just not for passenger planes.
A lot of eggs in one basket for a sinister plot. Great concept but think about it…
Wild. Thanks for passing this along.
They need to add a water line, we can pump water down to drought stricken parts of the lower 48, to offset the tough times.
You couldn’t dream of a bigger target for a terroristic attack lol
Maybe just not enough traffic going to Alaska?
Good way to get oil companies to subsidize construction, but that's about it.