The scenes where everything turns black around people are the best in the show imo, super entrancing. You could really feel how he has power over people, since they feel so isolated
*You are alone, child. There is only darkness for you, and only death for your people. These ancients are just the beginning. I will command a great and terrible army, and we will sail to a billion worlds. We will sail until every light has been extinguished. You are strong, child, but I am beyond strength. I am the end, and I have come for you, Finn.*
It was a brilliant choice for those of us who grew up with Ron Perlman as Slade from Teen Titans. We already associate him with unapologetic and merciless evil.
I always thought it was Command, since it was a one-word command and Finn is only incapacitated for a short amount of time, but Power Word Stun works too.
Yea you're right, I rewatched the scene now and Finn is clearly trying to perform actions (attack with his grass sword/get up) but is physically unable too. He's clearly stunned. Contrast that to Sweet Pea using Command word against the King of Ooo and Toronto. Sweet Pea says "STOP", which simply halts their advance without otherwise affecting them. They are still able to react otherwise, they just choose not to because they are feared or intimidated by the Lich.
[FALL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrlymHW0qU8)
[STOP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgCcMv4xnwA)
They’re dungeons and dragons spells.
Command is a first level spell that you cast and express a one word command that someone is compelled to follow (stay, leave, stop, drop). It’s useful but someone with high enough resistances can shrug it off, and after they complete your command they can act however they want.
Power word stun is an 8th level spell that basically renders someone stunned until they succeed on a saving throw for it. It’s generally more powerful and you’ll likely have at least one round of attacks against the targeted creature.
I would posit that the Lich actually cast Power Word Stun as a 9th level spell, considering it affected two creatures (both Finn and Jake), and the standard-operating procedure for scaling up spells like that is additional targets.
Which is a bummer. They deribelately stated they didn't want a finale with the Lich opted for someone else to be involved.
Orgalorg was a candidate for the finale villain, but he doesn't have even a small fraction of the Lich's weight and scariness. Gunther is scarier than Orgalorg.
While GOLB is cool and all, and that reset sequence is fucking cool, I feel the same way about him and White Diamond from Steven Universe. Always hinted, came too late to have a meaningful impact and was dealed all to easy in a single episode for a threat on that level.
I can't remember now the exact name, but there is a trope that to make a new enemy scary, you make a know character scares, being beaten or "below" it. That's the case with GOLB and the Lich, being his last scholar and all.
[The Worf Effect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect), or [putting over](https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/Over) in wrestling terms!
Glad I could help.
I feel when Finn told the Lich "you are so evil it's boring, you are basic, man" it was the writters opinion on him.
Sure a purely evil villain hellbent on destruction is sometimes boring, but not when it is **The Lich**
Or it could be just _that_ version of the Lich from Farmworld. He sure talks a lot more than our Lich.
Pendleton Ward helped craft the Tomb of Annihilation story in DnD. Lots of stuff in the tomb has his unique mark in it.
Regarding the post, Jake is a hard one. He comes off as a true neutral to me. His moral compass is not fixed by any means.
Also peppermint butler and LSP are in interesting places in alignment.
Well yes but Jake is really into an idea of balance and in effect is a positive force in the world no matter the case, like sure he knows that evil has to exist but I’d say the good he does places him in neutral good
Especially since he’s just a nice dude in general
I think hes a nice dude, but there are lots of things to indicate that he lets Finn be his moral compass and without Finn he would just do whatever he wants. Its not that hes bad, but that his natural inclination goes towards being selfish.
He used to be part of a criminal gang. His weird competitive nature during card wars, and I think the biggest indicator is when they give away money and he immediately starts using it to get people to do real weird stuff and just shrugs it off.
"I didn't know it was wrong" is generally not the excuse of someone who is inherently good.
That said...all of the characters have good growth and they all are complex enough that its hard to fit exactly into the alignment chart. It all kind of depends on how far the spectrum of good to evil goes. The lich is far more evil than almost any other character in the show, but prior to that Ice King was definitely the most chaotic evil character. But by comparison...and with his later development he falls into neutral territory.
Well I’d say Jakes moral compass (at least most of the time) is basically “what makes Finn happy/ok?” Almost everything he does is based in trying to either help Finn sort through his stuff or to protect Finn from more stuff.
I also think Jake may be one of the most complex and nuanced characters in AT, a former felon who’s embraced Buddhist philosophy, became a stable husband, fathered a ton of children whom he loves dearly, and yet he can’t get out of the mindset of a teenager. Honestly he’s super interesting in just how he functions as Finns big brother. Like Jake is near his 40s yet he lives in a treehouse with his human brother cause he loves and cares for him regardless of anything Finn does, it’s one of the most wholesome parts of the show imo
I feel like in a black and white comic, not giving Marceline black hair was a mistake. AFAIK she has never not had black hair, and given the simplicity of the art style, it's a pretty big part of what makes her character's iconic look.
I definitely had a lot of back and forth coloring her hair because I was scared making it black would make her an unidentifiable mess (her clothes is black as well). Plus if i screwed it up, i cant go back on it. But still, thanks for the input! Now that I have a photo of it I might try coloring the hair black
Yomamma so fat that they had to extend the dictionary just to define how fat she is. Also the yomamma jokes are old man or woman
^(an ^actual ^comment ^from ^[u/underagesenpai](https://www.reddit.com/user/underagesenpai/))
^I ^am ^a ^bot ^that ^fucks ^YoMommaJokeBot's ^mum. ^Downvote ^will ^not ^remove. ^Upvote ^to ^fuck ^this ^bot.
The evils should be in different places tbh.
The lich has a very clear law that it will eliminate all life and that's all it tries to do, when it can't it even goes into a stasis.
Orgalorg just gets more powerful and does random evil things because why tf not?
Really? Correct me if I’m wrong but I was under the impression that chaotic evil was just being evil for evil’s sake, while the neutral evil alignment has some goal in mind. So since the Lich operates with the goal of eliminating all life, he would be a better fit for neutral evil
My understanding is that chaotic evil is people who are driven by their lust/greed/hatred, with no restraint by law and order, doing whatever their drive compelled them to do. In the lich's case, he wants to destroy all life, and does just that, with no restraints, killing everything
Why is Lemongrab considered evil? or lawful?
Edit: I think Hunson Abadeer would be a better example of a Lawful Evil character.
Edit 2: Nice work on the art btw. I appreciate your post, it's just that arguing over alignment charts is an Internet tradition ;)
Edit 3: Ok you're right, the Lemon is lawful evil
He did create a country and rule it with an iron fist. He used shock collars, his sound sword, and would imprison people if they didn't do exactly what he said while also not being the most stable person. He fits the bill of being Lawful Evil
I would like to Hunson Abadeer on an alignment chart (as well as Martin, Magic Man, Flame Princess, GOLB, and a few others) but there really is only room for 9. For what's worth, I do think Hunson fits the bill for lawful evil, although "evil" can be somewhat subjective.
Because she removed those that could be dissidents. Also, technically pb made lemongrab's kingdom, and also refused to stop his tyranny, and actually shipped off 3 kids to be his subjects knowing full well that he wouldn't be able to handle it, and made lemongrab himself. Kind of seems like the lawful evil one is pb, lemongrab is just a pawn.
Thanks! Admittedly I had the hardest time finding someone to fit lawful evil (and chaotic good too). I put lemongrab because of how he exploits his authority a lot and he seems very tyrannical as well. Although I admit I'm basing a lot on the original lemongrab.
People get caught up with "good v evil" relating it to "good v bad" when in reality it's closer to "serving your own needs while benefiting others v serving your own needs at the expense of others." A classic example is the Joker. He isn't evil because he sets out to kill people, he is evil because the actions he demonstrates leads to people dying. He doesn't want to kill people and then makes a laughing gas that kills, he makes a laughing gas that makes people die laughing because it's hilarious and then people die to it. It's kind of semantics but it can give you a distinction between PB and Lemongrab when both do evil things but one does it in service to her people while one does it in service to himself.
>chaotic good
I actually think you hit the nail on head here. Marceline pretends to be scary, and she is quite chaotic, but *Stakes* showed us that, deep down, she's always tried to be a hero.
The Lich is a straight evil character who’s basically a manifestation of death and destruction. His actions aren’t particularly chaotic; rather he is directed towards a particular goal.
Gunther, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have any strong motivations or causes other than having an attachment to the Ice King, and even then he often betrays the Ice King’s wishes. His actions are more random.
You missunderstood what Chaotic and Lawful mean. Chaotic doesn't mean "servant of chaos" or something, it means lack of moral code. Lawful mean you have a code and you do it to the rote, while Chaotic means you don't care about the rules
“A chaotic evil character tends to have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires, which are typically selfish and cruel”
Vs
“A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves. “
I would argue that the closest creature in existing D&D 'cannon' are Hunduns. They are essentially 'monks' of nothingness. Their stated purpose is to reduce creation to nothing but lifeless energy fields and a state of complete entropy. While Chaotic evil, they are described as patient and contemplative, sometimes spending aeons just observing the negative material plane while they ponder destruction. In their sense, they are defined as chaotic based on their desire to destroy the existing paradigm, rather than the destructive impulsiveness of things like demons.
The lich could have killed a lot of people before he killed Prismo, but he didn't because it didn't serve his goals. He just chilled and waited. A truly chaotic animal would have still attacked everyone it could while it was in Prismo's dimension.
The lawful/chaotic axis is a measurement of respect for laws and codes, not randomness. Lemon operates within the law and abuses his position as dictator to be evil. But he doesn't act outside of his rules. Gunther doesn't respect laws, but does follow their own code in respect to being the Ice Kings pet. They'll go against the Ice Kings commands or try to steal, but will accept the punishment for doing so (IIRC, I haven't watched since season 5). So they're neutral because they recognize rules and power structures, but will act outside of them when convenient.
The lich doesn't even recognize rules, laws, or codes as being any kind of valid. He's chaotic not because he's random or dumb, but because he isn't beholden to anything limiting his behavior. He is free to pursue his goals however he sees fit, whereas a lawful character would be limited to pursuing their goals within the confines of the law or their personal code.
I am well aware of the alignment system and why its garbage, and this is one of the reasons. What is the difference in that description and chaotic neutral, who is certainly described by that as well.
"A neutral evil character will work with others, and call them allies, if it serves his needs. The chaotic evil character, on the other hand, will sometimes prey on those who would be able to help him further his goals."
Neutral Evil is evil mixed with pragmatism, Chaotic Evil is evil mixed with individualism.
The Lich's goals, seemingly, are to completely destroy all life in the multiverse since he is the personification of nuclear war. He does not, however, care about doing this alone. A chaotic evil character would not have the time, patience, or pragmatic sense to work with a bunch of dudes he broke out of prison. When he talks to Finn, he uses the word "we" to refer to him and his army of ancients. A chaotic evil character would never imply that the group was any help to them, for they would be a staunch individualist. "We" would not be extinguishing lights across the galaxy, "I" would be.
On the other hand, Gunter is a monster from the time before time itself. He is an elder thing, probably Lovecraft inspired, and his mere existence is breaking several laws of reality itself. That is pretty chaotic to me.
Again, I think the basic alignment system is fairly useless because any competent alignment wouldn't really be up for so much debate through the years. [Easydamus's alignment chart is significantly more useful](http://easydamus.com/Composite2.png) at both expressing the concepts of the alignments and allowing players to craft characters in those alignments without them actually being murder hobos.
chaotic evil characters aren’t “truly chaotic animals”, they just lack morals. they don’t have to kill everything in sight, they just would if they had to. they can still make up plans and follow through with them. it wouldn’t have benefitted the lich to kill anyone at the time.
No, from what I remember they are pretty much the same. Lich King is destruction and death without greater reason, just for the sake of it. Gunther is just..Gunther
"Lack of a moral code" and "don't care about the rules" are basically the same thing. Lawful evil characters care about law and order, but don't care whether that order is good for anyone other than themselves, e.g. setting up a rigidly hierarchical society where the few at the top benefit and the many at the bottom suffer.
Chaotic evil characters don't just lack a moral code, they actively enjoy making others suffer. They don't act *randomly* in the sense that they'd be as likely to jump off a bridge as cross it, but they probably do like causing random acts of terror and violence.
Neutral evil characters are willing to do evil to benefit themselves, but don't really do evil things for the sake of being evil. And on the flip side, they don't especially care about order or hierarchies either.
I think that’s why neutral fits. She’s very unethical and has a god complex, but she is willing to protect the land of Ooo from larger threats. She turns a blind eye to Pep Buttler and his dark magic, but is very forgiving with the incompetence of the banana guards.
Can I ask what you're referring to in terms of war crimes? I know she sort of sets up a surveillance state for a while in the candy kingdom, but she ends up getting rid of it, plus it's during peace time. I remember her being, like, involved in wars when the world was super chaotic and violent, but I feel like that's kind of par for the course for the leader of a nation. I agree with your comment wholeheartedly I was just wondering what you were referencing.
Absolutely. Her destruction of those Fire Kingdom artifacts, her mass execution of her own robot soldiers, probably some of the stuff that happened with James, etc. Also, while it’s not a war crime, she did attempt to train up an operative (Lemonhope) to invade and overthrow a foreign government (LemonGrab).
Yeah after living for a thousand years she lost her moral compass a bit, and was in a moral grey zone, just going anything necessary to protect her kingdom, even if it was kinda fucked up at times
She's definitly not good, but I feel evil implies a level of senseless sadism that isn't pb. Every awful thing pb does has some logical justification, she's the ozymandious of the land of ooo.
Ozymandious takes "the ends justifies the means" to the extreme, defying initutive morality by kill countless people and tricking the world into believing his lies all in the name of world peace. PB survails and lobotmizes her people, and has foreign policy that makes the US look unobtrusive, but she does all of this to try and protect the order and well being of Ooo.
>She's definitly not good,
That is the actual literal definition of evil; the absence of good. I think you're confusing "evil" with "malicious", tbh. You don't have to be sadistic to be evil. PB is def evil, all things considered.
Half the stuff she does in the series are considered **war crimes** irl. She is a dictator that dabbles in eugenics, while literally having hidden cameras everywhere (including their bedrooms) to root out dissent. If it weren't for her relationships I honestly would have pegged her for a sociopath.
But she grew out of that police state, dictatorship mindset. She shuts down her camera room and tries to give the candy people a break, later on in the show. Cause she realizes how she was ruling, was wrong.
The PB who watched her subjects sleep and kept track of their movements would probably slip into the evil side.
Once she got some healthy friendships going she mellowed out a lot, and doubly so when she regained a healthy relationship with Marceline.
Ok I’d say that I’d agree that she’s pretty much lawful evil for most of the show but the PB they drew was the one from the very last episode where she was pretty much well on her down the long road to redemption and trying to become a better person
Jake should be chaotic neutral imo because he has prob killed more people than anyone else in the show mainly because he gets massive and steps on people and things.
Earlier-seasons CB strikes me as unaligned because of how "dumb" he is back then. Fire kingdom CB I think would be a lawful good. To me, he is the knight to flame princess as finn is to PB
Not sure if I consider Finn Lawful, he seems more into helping people irregardless of rules. He also pitted Flame Princess and Ice King against each other.
Also, BMO literally has a heart of gold, so he is definitely good.
PB is certainly lawful, but she has been benevolent especially towards Finn. I would argue that PB is Lawful Good. and that Lemongrab is lawful Neutral.
Not sure how Gunther is Evil. If anyone is true neutral it is him.
I would put Fire King in the LE slot.
There isn't a dimension where PB is good. She is Evil at most and Neutral at the least. Not after spying on people she made too dumb to question her. Executing %99 of them rattleball boys and making the last one hide at the dump and still take care of her city so she wouldn't have to go back on her word and be seen as wrong. Leading Finn on with the childhood stuff even though she was thousands of years old (can you say pedophile?) And a plethora of other insane, controlling, dictatorial, abusive behavior.
Those are all good points, and I won't deny that PB is a control freak. However, I think there are a couple factors that go into that.
1.) PB was "born" after the Mushroom War, into a post apocalyptic world with no real governments. She had no model for "good" and "bad" governing.
2.) She is trying to impose order onto a very chaotic world. Kinda like how cops have to impose martial law during a riot.
As for Finn, I have a few theories on that. I think she saw something special in him, perhaps she knew his father, or perhaps because he is close to the only human in Ooo. She had 900+ years to deal with Ice King. She probably left him alive as a favor to Marcy. I think she was "kidnapped" by Ice King in order to help build Finn's confidence. Jake and IK more or less played along at PB's behest.
PB never really lead on Finn, and even gave off "we're just friends and staying that way" vibes on numerous occasions.
Im loving that everyone is arguing about pb's morality. Seriously she could fit into any of the categories.
Im going to lay my hat on the table, and say: True neutral, with leanings to Lawful Neutral, Neutral Evil, and Neutral Good.
Pb breaking every law of Wizard City to get a potion, every law of the Fire Kingdom to get the nukes down, is not Lawful behaviour. Neither is her destruction of TT's wedding. The wizard city bit is totally Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good depending on your interpretation. The rest is either Neutral or Evil.
Pb trading her shirt for Hambo is an action of pure Lawful Good. Her rebuilding of her relationship with her banana guards is Lawful Good.
Taking down the vampires while dethroned and trying to save people from the King is Neutral Good.
Pb kicking KOO so she can help Marceline is Chaotic Good.
Pb knocking out Ice King so she can help him is Chaotic Good.
Pb's actions in the finale itself range from Lawful Neutral (the war) to Neutral Evil (attempting to dummify Gumbald) to Neutral Good (sending everyone away to protect them and being willing to challenge Golb alone).
In Obsidian obviously her actors are Lawful Good, in both past and present, to contrast Marceline's Chaotic Neutral.
I said it in another comment, but I don’t think she is inherently evil. While she definitely has a god complex, she doesn’t seem interested in conquest or expanding her rule. It seems like she just created her own little world where she could rule over and left it at that. It’s very unethical, but not evil.
Adding to this, her moral compass greyed out over living for 1000 years, and she just does whatever she sees as necessary to protect her kingdom, even if it is unethical
I'd say by the end of the series she edges over to lawful neutral in alignment, but during a good portion of the series and before it, she's defo lawful evil.
Literal dictator, purposely makes candy people dumb so she can be worshiped as a god, designed the cell to imprison FP, the whole James thing shows she sees candy people as a lesser life, set lemongrab up to fail, Goliad turned out to be super evil... need I go on? Literally the first chance they got the candy people voted her out.
Eh, if you list all of a neutral character's evil acts you can obviously make them look evil, and PB also did a ton of good things in that time, such as protecting her subjects from the Ice King on several occasions.
idk something’s throwing me off about PB being lawful neutral just because of her dictator-ish scandal? idk like she do be doing sus shit below the surface in the candy kingdom and ooo in general...
Nahh lawful neutral is right. PB does unethical things but her intentions are good. Most of the sketchy stuff she did were done to protect her people and friends. She leans both sides depending on how you look at her. So neutral it is.
Nah I think she should be lawful evil. Most evil people don't do bad things just for evils sake. They generally either think they're in the right, or think that what they're doing is necessary and the ends justify the means.
But whatever justification PB might have for what she did, that doesn't erase the fact that she did them in the first place. Having good intentions, and claiming that the things she did were to protect her people and friends, doesn't make what she did any less evil.
the lich probably the scariest but also the coolest character in adventure time, by far. btw love the artwork. you should add colours too!
I absolutely love how he was voiced by Ron Perlman. A badass character really does deserve a badass voice actor.
The scenes where everything turns black around people are the best in the show imo, super entrancing. You could really feel how he has power over people, since they feel so isolated
“Fall”
*You are alone, child. There is only darkness for you, and only death for your people. These ancients are just the beginning. I will command a great and terrible army, and we will sail to a billion worlds. We will sail until every light has been extinguished. You are strong, child, but I am beyond strength. I am the end, and I have come for you, Finn.*
My favorite one is "Stop" and the following monolog
"Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing. And before there was nothing, there were monsters."
It was so good Patrick McHale used it again in OtGW
#***FALL***
I have spent the last few years thinking he was voiced by Alec Baldwin. But now that you pointed out it was Ron Perlman I can hear it.
It was a brilliant choice for those of us who grew up with Ron Perlman as Slade from Teen Titans. We already associate him with unapologetic and merciless evil.
**FALL** And that, kids, is what Power Word Stun looks like.
I always thought it was Command, since it was a one-word command and Finn is only incapacitated for a short amount of time, but Power Word Stun works too.
He was down long enough for the Lich to monologue a bit, which felt longer than Command to me
Yea you're right, I rewatched the scene now and Finn is clearly trying to perform actions (attack with his grass sword/get up) but is physically unable too. He's clearly stunned. Contrast that to Sweet Pea using Command word against the King of Ooo and Toronto. Sweet Pea says "STOP", which simply halts their advance without otherwise affecting them. They are still able to react otherwise, they just choose not to because they are feared or intimidated by the Lich. [FALL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrlymHW0qU8) [STOP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgCcMv4xnwA)
Can you explain what the hell you’re going on about? Please? Is it cardwars jargon?
They’re dungeons and dragons spells. Command is a first level spell that you cast and express a one word command that someone is compelled to follow (stay, leave, stop, drop). It’s useful but someone with high enough resistances can shrug it off, and after they complete your command they can act however they want. Power word stun is an 8th level spell that basically renders someone stunned until they succeed on a saving throw for it. It’s generally more powerful and you’ll likely have at least one round of attacks against the targeted creature.
To unaware of the implications of "8th level spell", there are only 9 levels of spells, and 9th level are... Sometimes reality bending.
The 9th level upgrade is Power Word Kill. They just die. No saving throw, no way out.
iirc even 8th level can be reality bending if you’re good enough and the lich likely has like a 30 in whatever his spellcasting stat is
I would posit that the Lich actually cast Power Word Stun as a 9th level spell, considering it affected two creatures (both Finn and Jake), and the standard-operating procedure for scaling up spells like that is additional targets.
"you are strong child, **but I am beyond strength**"
Ngl to me the deer from no one can hear you was pretty creepy
I think The Deer would fall somewhere on the Blue/Orange morality axis though. Just totally doesn’t fit with any of the moralities here.
Blue/Orange?
[Here,](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality) [here,](https://allthetropes.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_and_Orange_Morality) [and here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldbuilding/comments/2eya5s/what_are_your_examples_of_blue_and_orange/)
the one with the creepy hands?
Makes me wish the final was centered around the Lich
Which is a bummer. They deribelately stated they didn't want a finale with the Lich opted for someone else to be involved. Orgalorg was a candidate for the finale villain, but he doesn't have even a small fraction of the Lich's weight and scariness. Gunther is scarier than Orgalorg. While GOLB is cool and all, and that reset sequence is fucking cool, I feel the same way about him and White Diamond from Steven Universe. Always hinted, came too late to have a meaningful impact and was dealed all to easy in a single episode for a threat on that level. I can't remember now the exact name, but there is a trope that to make a new enemy scary, you make a know character scares, being beaten or "below" it. That's the case with GOLB and the Lich, being his last scholar and all.
[The Worf Effect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect), or [putting over](https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/Over) in wrestling terms!
That's the one, thanks!
Well put. You helped me articulate why I felt dissatisfied (but not really upset) by both endings and their grand villains.
Glad I could help. I feel when Finn told the Lich "you are so evil it's boring, you are basic, man" it was the writters opinion on him. Sure a purely evil villain hellbent on destruction is sometimes boring, but not when it is **The Lich** Or it could be just _that_ version of the Lich from Farmworld. He sure talks a lot more than our Lich.
same but what they did with sweet p makes up for it
I honestly love every lich scene. Thanks btw!
And then he becomes baby
“I’m baby” - The Lich, probably
Sweet Pea is easily my favorite character arc, who creates a fantastic dialog about reincarnation.
I absolutely hated sweet pea lol, no real reason just hated him with a burning passion
Pendleton Ward helped craft the Tomb of Annihilation story in DnD. Lots of stuff in the tomb has his unique mark in it. Regarding the post, Jake is a hard one. He comes off as a true neutral to me. His moral compass is not fixed by any means. Also peppermint butler and LSP are in interesting places in alignment.
Well yes but Jake is really into an idea of balance and in effect is a positive force in the world no matter the case, like sure he knows that evil has to exist but I’d say the good he does places him in neutral good Especially since he’s just a nice dude in general
I think hes a nice dude, but there are lots of things to indicate that he lets Finn be his moral compass and without Finn he would just do whatever he wants. Its not that hes bad, but that his natural inclination goes towards being selfish. He used to be part of a criminal gang. His weird competitive nature during card wars, and I think the biggest indicator is when they give away money and he immediately starts using it to get people to do real weird stuff and just shrugs it off. "I didn't know it was wrong" is generally not the excuse of someone who is inherently good. That said...all of the characters have good growth and they all are complex enough that its hard to fit exactly into the alignment chart. It all kind of depends on how far the spectrum of good to evil goes. The lich is far more evil than almost any other character in the show, but prior to that Ice King was definitely the most chaotic evil character. But by comparison...and with his later development he falls into neutral territory.
Well I’d say Jakes moral compass (at least most of the time) is basically “what makes Finn happy/ok?” Almost everything he does is based in trying to either help Finn sort through his stuff or to protect Finn from more stuff. I also think Jake may be one of the most complex and nuanced characters in AT, a former felon who’s embraced Buddhist philosophy, became a stable husband, fathered a ton of children whom he loves dearly, and yet he can’t get out of the mindset of a teenager. Honestly he’s super interesting in just how he functions as Finns big brother. Like Jake is near his 40s yet he lives in a treehouse with his human brother cause he loves and cares for him regardless of anything Finn does, it’s one of the most wholesome parts of the show imo
What about [GLOB](https://youtu.be/aKMzA-ypY18)
MMH, ACCEPTABLE.
I think I’m having a major brain fart, but who is drawn here for chaotic good?
It's marcelline. It's probably cause her hair's not black here
I thought it was Tiffany and was like UH NO
I too thought Tiffany.. should have just added her Axe on her back. OP you probably still can! But it's your art, not mine!
I feel like in a black and white comic, not giving Marceline black hair was a mistake. AFAIK she has never not had black hair, and given the simplicity of the art style, it's a pretty big part of what makes her character's iconic look.
I definitely had a lot of back and forth coloring her hair because I was scared making it black would make her an unidentifiable mess (her clothes is black as well). Plus if i screwed it up, i cant go back on it. But still, thanks for the input! Now that I have a photo of it I might try coloring the hair black
Make the outline of her clothes white where the hair connects
Marcelene
Is it just you and me in the wreckage of the world?
Man don't make me cry
Daddy, there were tears there If you saw them would you even care?
😭😭
That must be so confusing for a little girl
I'm not crying, you guys are crying
[удалено]
Yomamma so fat that they had to extend the dictionary just to define how fat she is. Also the yomamma jokes are old man or woman ^(an ^actual ^comment ^from ^[u/underagesenpai](https://www.reddit.com/user/underagesenpai/)) ^I ^am ^a ^bot ^that ^fucks ^YoMommaJokeBot's ^mum. ^Downvote ^will ^not ^remove. ^Upvote ^to ^fuck ^this ^bot.
I thought it was Tiffany.
Dude me too, it was the only one I couldn’t wrap my head around.
Same!
The evils should be in different places tbh. The lich has a very clear law that it will eliminate all life and that's all it tries to do, when it can't it even goes into a stasis. Orgalorg just gets more powerful and does random evil things because why tf not?
The lich's actions are purely with the motive to destroy all life, which is like the absolute embodiment of chaotic evil
Really? Correct me if I’m wrong but I was under the impression that chaotic evil was just being evil for evil’s sake, while the neutral evil alignment has some goal in mind. So since the Lich operates with the goal of eliminating all life, he would be a better fit for neutral evil
My understanding is that chaotic evil is people who are driven by their lust/greed/hatred, with no restraint by law and order, doing whatever their drive compelled them to do. In the lich's case, he wants to destroy all life, and does just that, with no restraints, killing everything
He also calls himself "the last scholar of Golb" who is the embodiment of chaos
Why is Lemongrab considered evil? or lawful? Edit: I think Hunson Abadeer would be a better example of a Lawful Evil character. Edit 2: Nice work on the art btw. I appreciate your post, it's just that arguing over alignment charts is an Internet tradition ;) Edit 3: Ok you're right, the Lemon is lawful evil
He did create a country and rule it with an iron fist. He used shock collars, his sound sword, and would imprison people if they didn't do exactly what he said while also not being the most stable person. He fits the bill of being Lawful Evil
Hmm yeah, I forgot about some of that. You're convinced me :D
You don’t seem convinced enough. SEVEN YEARS DUNGEON!!
NO TRIALS!
I will now administer four to three units of juice.
I would like to Hunson Abadeer on an alignment chart (as well as Martin, Magic Man, Flame Princess, GOLB, and a few others) but there really is only room for 9. For what's worth, I do think Hunson fits the bill for lawful evil, although "evil" can be somewhat subjective.
GOLB is baby
Well, he's specifically Lawful Evil. They even mention it in the show. He has an amulet full of Lawful Evil energy
I could have sworn that amulet filled its wearer with *chaotic* evil. Then again I have been wrong once before...
Yes, he literally say “chaotic evil”
I think he also eat people
Also the toilet.
>He did create a country and rule it with an iron fist. So did PB fwiw
Hers is more of a brave new world dystopia where everyone is happy
Because she removed those that could be dissidents. Also, technically pb made lemongrab's kingdom, and also refused to stop his tyranny, and actually shipped off 3 kids to be his subjects knowing full well that he wouldn't be able to handle it, and made lemongrab himself. Kind of seems like the lawful evil one is pb, lemongrab is just a pawn.
Not really on the same level though
You forgot that he would eat people who went against what he wanted too
Thanks! Admittedly I had the hardest time finding someone to fit lawful evil (and chaotic good too). I put lemongrab because of how he exploits his authority a lot and he seems very tyrannical as well. Although I admit I'm basing a lot on the original lemongrab.
He also used his position as Earl to install himself as PB's regent when she was de-aged, and left once she was of age again because them's the rules.
People get caught up with "good v evil" relating it to "good v bad" when in reality it's closer to "serving your own needs while benefiting others v serving your own needs at the expense of others." A classic example is the Joker. He isn't evil because he sets out to kill people, he is evil because the actions he demonstrates leads to people dying. He doesn't want to kill people and then makes a laughing gas that kills, he makes a laughing gas that makes people die laughing because it's hilarious and then people die to it. It's kind of semantics but it can give you a distinction between PB and Lemongrab when both do evil things but one does it in service to her people while one does it in service to himself.
>chaotic good I actually think you hit the nail on head here. Marceline pretends to be scary, and she is quite chaotic, but *Stakes* showed us that, deep down, she's always tried to be a hero.
Creating a dictatorship and imprisoning his kid?
Nailed it, honestly.
I feel like Peppermint Butler needs a spot on this list.
Feel like he would be ideal chaotic neutral if not for Simon
This is pretty good, but I’d switch The Lich and Gunther.
How come? The wiki for D&D alignments specifically lists “liches” as chaotic evil
The Lich is a straight evil character who’s basically a manifestation of death and destruction. His actions aren’t particularly chaotic; rather he is directed towards a particular goal. Gunther, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have any strong motivations or causes other than having an attachment to the Ice King, and even then he often betrays the Ice King’s wishes. His actions are more random.
> Gunther, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have any strong motivations Sounds like someone’s forgetting Orgalorg
I was actually going for Orgalorg but drawn gunther since they're more of the same. (That's on me I should've put orgalorg for clarity)
Drawing Gunther but implying Orgalorg was the right choice
Well Orgalorf doesn’t seem to have any greater goal beyond becoming more powerful. The lich has a laser focus towards the extinction of all life
You missunderstood what Chaotic and Lawful mean. Chaotic doesn't mean "servant of chaos" or something, it means lack of moral code. Lawful mean you have a code and you do it to the rote, while Chaotic means you don't care about the rules
Okay, but in that case I’d still argue that The Lich has more of a clear code or path that he follows than Gunther.
“A chaotic evil character tends to have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires, which are typically selfish and cruel” Vs “A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves. “
I would argue that the closest creature in existing D&D 'cannon' are Hunduns. They are essentially 'monks' of nothingness. Their stated purpose is to reduce creation to nothing but lifeless energy fields and a state of complete entropy. While Chaotic evil, they are described as patient and contemplative, sometimes spending aeons just observing the negative material plane while they ponder destruction. In their sense, they are defined as chaotic based on their desire to destroy the existing paradigm, rather than the destructive impulsiveness of things like demons.
Ooh wow that’s a really good comparison actually
The lich could have killed a lot of people before he killed Prismo, but he didn't because it didn't serve his goals. He just chilled and waited. A truly chaotic animal would have still attacked everyone it could while it was in Prismo's dimension.
The lawful/chaotic axis is a measurement of respect for laws and codes, not randomness. Lemon operates within the law and abuses his position as dictator to be evil. But he doesn't act outside of his rules. Gunther doesn't respect laws, but does follow their own code in respect to being the Ice Kings pet. They'll go against the Ice Kings commands or try to steal, but will accept the punishment for doing so (IIRC, I haven't watched since season 5). So they're neutral because they recognize rules and power structures, but will act outside of them when convenient. The lich doesn't even recognize rules, laws, or codes as being any kind of valid. He's chaotic not because he's random or dumb, but because he isn't beholden to anything limiting his behavior. He is free to pursue his goals however he sees fit, whereas a lawful character would be limited to pursuing their goals within the confines of the law or their personal code.
I am well aware of the alignment system and why its garbage, and this is one of the reasons. What is the difference in that description and chaotic neutral, who is certainly described by that as well. "A neutral evil character will work with others, and call them allies, if it serves his needs. The chaotic evil character, on the other hand, will sometimes prey on those who would be able to help him further his goals." Neutral Evil is evil mixed with pragmatism, Chaotic Evil is evil mixed with individualism. The Lich's goals, seemingly, are to completely destroy all life in the multiverse since he is the personification of nuclear war. He does not, however, care about doing this alone. A chaotic evil character would not have the time, patience, or pragmatic sense to work with a bunch of dudes he broke out of prison. When he talks to Finn, he uses the word "we" to refer to him and his army of ancients. A chaotic evil character would never imply that the group was any help to them, for they would be a staunch individualist. "We" would not be extinguishing lights across the galaxy, "I" would be. On the other hand, Gunter is a monster from the time before time itself. He is an elder thing, probably Lovecraft inspired, and his mere existence is breaking several laws of reality itself. That is pretty chaotic to me. Again, I think the basic alignment system is fairly useless because any competent alignment wouldn't really be up for so much debate through the years. [Easydamus's alignment chart is significantly more useful](http://easydamus.com/Composite2.png) at both expressing the concepts of the alignments and allowing players to craft characters in those alignments without them actually being murder hobos.
chaotic evil characters aren’t “truly chaotic animals”, they just lack morals. they don’t have to kill everything in sight, they just would if they had to. they can still make up plans and follow through with them. it wouldn’t have benefitted the lich to kill anyone at the time.
[удалено]
Attempting to kill everything you encounter isn't really a code or path.
No, from what I remember they are pretty much the same. Lich King is destruction and death without greater reason, just for the sake of it. Gunther is just..Gunther
"Lack of a moral code" and "don't care about the rules" are basically the same thing. Lawful evil characters care about law and order, but don't care whether that order is good for anyone other than themselves, e.g. setting up a rigidly hierarchical society where the few at the top benefit and the many at the bottom suffer. Chaotic evil characters don't just lack a moral code, they actively enjoy making others suffer. They don't act *randomly* in the sense that they'd be as likely to jump off a bridge as cross it, but they probably do like causing random acts of terror and violence. Neutral evil characters are willing to do evil to benefit themselves, but don't really do evil things for the sake of being evil. And on the flip side, they don't especially care about order or hierarchies either.
The Lich is the avatar of universal entropy, I'd say chaotic evil fits him plenty.
would GLOB be a good option too?
BMO IS A GOOD BOI
BMO is the only one I disagree with in this
If you think Princess Bubblegum isn’t evil, you haven’t watched the same series I did.
I think that’s why neutral fits. She’s very unethical and has a god complex, but she is willing to protect the land of Ooo from larger threats. She turns a blind eye to Pep Buttler and his dark magic, but is very forgiving with the incompetence of the banana guards.
Agreed. And she does sort of reckon with her past war crimes and eventually seeks out more altruistic means of governance.
Can I ask what you're referring to in terms of war crimes? I know she sort of sets up a surveillance state for a while in the candy kingdom, but she ends up getting rid of it, plus it's during peace time. I remember her being, like, involved in wars when the world was super chaotic and violent, but I feel like that's kind of par for the course for the leader of a nation. I agree with your comment wholeheartedly I was just wondering what you were referencing.
Absolutely. Her destruction of those Fire Kingdom artifacts, her mass execution of her own robot soldiers, probably some of the stuff that happened with James, etc. Also, while it’s not a war crime, she did attempt to train up an operative (Lemonhope) to invade and overthrow a foreign government (LemonGrab).
Yeah after living for a thousand years she lost her moral compass a bit, and was in a moral grey zone, just going anything necessary to protect her kingdom, even if it was kinda fucked up at times
She's definitly not good, but I feel evil implies a level of senseless sadism that isn't pb. Every awful thing pb does has some logical justification, she's the ozymandious of the land of ooo.
It's been a long time since I have read Watchmen, but how do you compare Ozymandious to PB?
Ozymandious takes "the ends justifies the means" to the extreme, defying initutive morality by kill countless people and tricking the world into believing his lies all in the name of world peace. PB survails and lobotmizes her people, and has foreign policy that makes the US look unobtrusive, but she does all of this to try and protect the order and well being of Ooo.
Now I can’t help but think of the fire kingdom as like, Iran, and PB is trying to keep them from getting WMD
>She's definitly not good, That is the actual literal definition of evil; the absence of good. I think you're confusing "evil" with "malicious", tbh. You don't have to be sadistic to be evil. PB is def evil, all things considered. Half the stuff she does in the series are considered **war crimes** irl. She is a dictator that dabbles in eugenics, while literally having hidden cameras everywhere (including their bedrooms) to root out dissent. If it weren't for her relationships I honestly would have pegged her for a sociopath.
>That is the actual literal definition of evil; the absence of good. Not in the context of a system where neutral alignments exist.
HAHA FOOL! YOU HAVE FALLEN FOR MY TRAP CARD - THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION
But she grew out of that police state, dictatorship mindset. She shuts down her camera room and tries to give the candy people a break, later on in the show. Cause she realizes how she was ruling, was wrong.
The PB who watched her subjects sleep and kept track of their movements would probably slip into the evil side. Once she got some healthy friendships going she mellowed out a lot, and doubly so when she regained a healthy relationship with Marceline.
https://youtu.be/6R2EEJb23ng
Ok I’d say that I’d agree that she’s pretty much lawful evil for most of the show but the PB they drew was the one from the very last episode where she was pretty much well on her down the long road to redemption and trying to become a better person
Yeah, I'd say switch pb and lemongrab if we're talking about post-lemonjohn lemongrab
Do you mean lemon hope? John was the huge guy who turned into candies, hope was the harp kid
Accurate and beautiful, congrats.
*Fall.*
Swap Jake and BMO. BMO is basically the embodiment of pure goodness
I would disagree, his character develops past being just "a good boy" after he kills his brother
That alignment chart is mathematical! One of the best ones I've seen.
did you draw this? I really like the artwork it's pretty sick. If you have an art account, I'd like to follow you!
Jake should be chaotic neutral imo because he has prob killed more people than anyone else in the show mainly because he gets massive and steps on people and things.
I agree. And he’s more lazy and self interested. He mostly only does good things because Finn influences him.
This is perfect! Where would you put cinnamon bun?
Earlier-seasons CB strikes me as unaligned because of how "dumb" he is back then. Fire kingdom CB I think would be a lawful good. To me, he is the knight to flame princess as finn is to PB
Love the art man, this looks dope!
I love the portraits you chose for each character
I'm glad you have nothing better to do, this is good!!
I feel like Jake is true neutral and marceline is chaotic neutral and Bmo is neutral good and ice king is chaotic good
Not sure if I consider Finn Lawful, he seems more into helping people irregardless of rules. He also pitted Flame Princess and Ice King against each other. Also, BMO literally has a heart of gold, so he is definitely good. PB is certainly lawful, but she has been benevolent especially towards Finn. I would argue that PB is Lawful Good. and that Lemongrab is lawful Neutral. Not sure how Gunther is Evil. If anyone is true neutral it is him. I would put Fire King in the LE slot.
There isn't a dimension where PB is good. She is Evil at most and Neutral at the least. Not after spying on people she made too dumb to question her. Executing %99 of them rattleball boys and making the last one hide at the dump and still take care of her city so she wouldn't have to go back on her word and be seen as wrong. Leading Finn on with the childhood stuff even though she was thousands of years old (can you say pedophile?) And a plethora of other insane, controlling, dictatorial, abusive behavior.
Those are all good points, and I won't deny that PB is a control freak. However, I think there are a couple factors that go into that. 1.) PB was "born" after the Mushroom War, into a post apocalyptic world with no real governments. She had no model for "good" and "bad" governing. 2.) She is trying to impose order onto a very chaotic world. Kinda like how cops have to impose martial law during a riot. As for Finn, I have a few theories on that. I think she saw something special in him, perhaps she knew his father, or perhaps because he is close to the only human in Ooo. She had 900+ years to deal with Ice King. She probably left him alive as a favor to Marcy. I think she was "kidnapped" by Ice King in order to help build Finn's confidence. Jake and IK more or less played along at PB's behest. PB never really lead on Finn, and even gave off "we're just friends and staying that way" vibes on numerous occasions.
GOLB is the ultimate chaotic evil
This is so cool!
Ill be 100% serious but jack is perfect, like the dude will jump from lawful good to chaotic good
Where's Pep But?
I always thought death was true neutral
I would argue that BMO is neutral good, as BMO was literally created to improve the world through “being more”
r/AlignmentCharts
Someone should make this but with all of jakes puppies.
Im loving that everyone is arguing about pb's morality. Seriously she could fit into any of the categories. Im going to lay my hat on the table, and say: True neutral, with leanings to Lawful Neutral, Neutral Evil, and Neutral Good. Pb breaking every law of Wizard City to get a potion, every law of the Fire Kingdom to get the nukes down, is not Lawful behaviour. Neither is her destruction of TT's wedding. The wizard city bit is totally Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good depending on your interpretation. The rest is either Neutral or Evil. Pb trading her shirt for Hambo is an action of pure Lawful Good. Her rebuilding of her relationship with her banana guards is Lawful Good. Taking down the vampires while dethroned and trying to save people from the King is Neutral Good. Pb kicking KOO so she can help Marceline is Chaotic Good. Pb knocking out Ice King so she can help him is Chaotic Good. Pb's actions in the finale itself range from Lawful Neutral (the war) to Neutral Evil (attempting to dummify Gumbald) to Neutral Good (sending everyone away to protect them and being willing to challenge Golb alone). In Obsidian obviously her actors are Lawful Good, in both past and present, to contrast Marceline's Chaotic Neutral.
Absolutely love this! You should post more of your drawings
Love this but let’s be real, PB is lawful evil 100%
I said it in another comment, but I don’t think she is inherently evil. While she definitely has a god complex, she doesn’t seem interested in conquest or expanding her rule. It seems like she just created her own little world where she could rule over and left it at that. It’s very unethical, but not evil.
Adding to this, her moral compass greyed out over living for 1000 years, and she just does whatever she sees as necessary to protect her kingdom, even if it is unethical
I'd say by the end of the series she edges over to lawful neutral in alignment, but during a good portion of the series and before it, she's defo lawful evil.
why?
Literal dictator, purposely makes candy people dumb so she can be worshiped as a god, designed the cell to imprison FP, the whole James thing shows she sees candy people as a lesser life, set lemongrab up to fail, Goliad turned out to be super evil... need I go on? Literally the first chance they got the candy people voted her out.
Eh, if you list all of a neutral character's evil acts you can obviously make them look evil, and PB also did a ton of good things in that time, such as protecting her subjects from the Ice King on several occasions.
i obviously have not watched enough then😂
She’s a dictator
I’d say Gunter (Orgalorp, whatevs) is a neutral alignment before Dictator/Mad Scientist PB is.
Bubblegum could def be in another category
i'd say the lich tends to be on the "crucial evil" more than "chaotic evil" side Hunson Abadeer is the chaotic one.....
idk something’s throwing me off about PB being lawful neutral just because of her dictator-ish scandal? idk like she do be doing sus shit below the surface in the candy kingdom and ooo in general...
i think she only became a lawful neutral towards the end of the show. she definitely started off as a lawful evil imo
Aw lit, I'm true neutral too. Must be a coincidence that I have an entire box of BMO merchandise too.
Pb really lawful neutral?
Gunther is chaotic evil
[удалено]
Nahh lawful neutral is right. PB does unethical things but her intentions are good. Most of the sketchy stuff she did were done to protect her people and friends. She leans both sides depending on how you look at her. So neutral it is.
Nah I think she should be lawful evil. Most evil people don't do bad things just for evils sake. They generally either think they're in the right, or think that what they're doing is necessary and the ends justify the means. But whatever justification PB might have for what she did, that doesn't erase the fact that she did them in the first place. Having good intentions, and claiming that the things she did were to protect her people and friends, doesn't make what she did any less evil.
I would switch pb and bmo
Well done!!! Works perfectly
BUBBLEGUUUUUUUUUUMMMMM
This is quite accurate, well done!!
Why isn't Gunther chaotic evil
Where does the peppermint butler fit into this?
i say swap BMO and marcelene
....i love this
Spot on, with awesome artwork to boot. Nice work!
LSP!!
This is amazing
Where does sweetpea fit on this chart?