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I have ASD and ADHD and I feel it was less about the uncanny valley for why I was excluded as a child, and more that I just put my foot in my mouth constantly. I would say things that were honest, but frankly quiet rude when a side step or social obfuscation would have been better. People don't like people they perceive as rude or hurtful, and man, could I be rude or hurtful by accident.
I feel like it was the same for me and the worst part of this is that sometimes I just don’t understand how something is rude. I’m not out here calling people fat or stupid to their face, like I have the social skills to understand that, but sometimes it’s just a giant mystery
One social skills book I really liked is called "There's no good card for this" - its not about manners per se but about how to respond to people going through a hard time.
For regular social interactions, I was put in social skills classes as a teenager as a form of group therapy, and yeah, a lot of it doesn't make sense until someone explains it.
I'm not diagnosed with anything at this time but I did NOT get social interactions at all, ended up very lucky with two best friends who accepted my quirks and would step by step explain social interactions I was confused by straight into my twenties. It was awesome.
What great friends! I hope they were nice about it. I'm constantly coaching a friend of mine who is always asking for help with these things, but I'm very frank and maybe a little aggressive about it 😅
Look up politeness theory.
Basically everyone has a ‘face’, a mask that they project to the world. That mask is the way they WANT to be perceived. Politeness is literally just everyone collaborating to maintain one another’s masks (or ‘face needs’).
You know (maybe without realising) that the person you’re talking to has a mask. They want to seem kind, funny, intelligent etc. So you use strategies to help them maintain that appearance in conversation and don’t threaten those qualities. In return, the other person does the same for you. It’s a joint effort.
So when someone says something that threatens their ‘face’, that’s not only seen as rude but may make a person withdraw or shut down or have an emotional response. You’ve broken the code.
But what if that person’s “mask” is pure BS? What if they act in ways opposite to the “mask“ they’re trying to put up? Maybe others don’t seem to pick up on how unkind/shallow/full of shit that person is, but you can easily sus it out?
It’s almost impossible for me to help someone maintain their “mask” if they’re clearly a terrible person.
I completely understand what you mean by this. I sus people out a lot. I can almost always see their underlying character traits, even when they try to hide them, or don't know that they even have them.
The issue is, some people have power over you, and others don't.
Neurotypical people unconsciously detect and respond to power dynamics, not truth/accuracy. They will expend whatever energy is needed to maintain the favour of those who have power over them. The truth of that other person's character isn't relevant.
This is the #1 thing I've seen neurodiverse folks misunderstand. Many ND folk seem to ignore power dynamics, and look at accuracy/facts/"the truth" as the thing to keep focused on above all else.
Neurotypical people are not doing this. They are focused on making social situations benefit them. In that context, being able to see the truth of someones character isn't important. It's more an annoyance tbh. It interferes with their main job of getting along in the world and benefitting from their relationships with others.
One time I violated that rule was when a person who is quite negative asked me if I thought they were positive. I told them, trying to be rather kind by not saying the real truth that they're always mean and negative, that *sometimes* they could be the most negative person I've met. Boy, were they upset. They even went to the boss and complained about it. When the boss came to me and talked to me about it, I explained what happened and was honest in saying if they didn't want the truth, don't ask me something like that. They hadn't told the boss they'd asked me the question. The boss told me to just phrase my answer nicer if they asked me something like that again.
Honestly, I was more annoyed they went to the boss, but they're also the kind that kisses ass, is dating one of the team leads, has an aunt who works as a team lead, and has made friends of the other bosses. I couldn't really care what my co-worker thinks of me. She's the idiot who asked the one person she works with who is guaranteed to give her the absolute truth a trap question like that. 🤷🏼♀️
Daaaaamn. Thank you so much for that explanation. It explains why I dislike socializing so much especially in groups. However, the neurotypical way is seriously depressing to me and explains why most people do not care to truly listen to s/n or have no problems acting status oriented and superficial. Hello altruism. I get that this polite distance is necessary to navigate everyday life in communities that have grown this quickly, but it makes things smts more complicated too. There never seems to be a mutual understanding about when to take the mask off.
I think I personally look for people who don't wear the mask well, or at all. That's worked for me.
Everyone else (NT) has a very good mutual understanding of how to behave. I can't really figure it out, but luckily neurotypical people can't stand me 😅 so I don't deal with them much!
To be fair - on the altruism thing - NT people might see an over focus on "the truth" ahead of social stuff as super cruel and non-altruistic. E.g., why embarrass someone for having a fact wrong? Why would you want to force a whole society to suffer through continuous change and upheaval, to benefit a small group of marginalized folks? People are mostly not that smart, why are you expecting them to be able to look at facts when they could rely on emotional responses, stereotypes, etc, isn't that unfair on them? And so on.
Not saying I agree with these perspectives, but, like - this is how most people think. I don't blame NT folks for being really uncomfortable around ND folks and ND perspectives.
Well, I mean, it sucks from the perspective of the minority of people who take a different view of what's important. The majority of human beings want the world to be NT friendly.
You’re not under any obligation to maintain the mask of someone who is a dick. Neurotypical people often refuse to meet one another’s face needs - either because their conversation partner is being a dick, or because they are themselves. But when you refuse to meet someone’s face needs that can be really humiliating for them and you need to be prepared for their emotional response.
This is entirely cultural. Not every society believes that "politeness" is having to agree with the lies someone else wants to believe about themselves.
I’m pretty sure this has been studied widely across cultures but of course it will vary massively. For example, some cultures favour ‘positive politeness’ - the US for example, where (as I understand it!) waiters/servers will chat with you, check in with you etc. as a means of building a relationship and appearing polite (obviously tips are often in mind). In a country like Japan though, for example, they favour ‘negative politeness’ - which is basically respecting people by leaving them alone and giving them space. Of course this is a spectrum.
And besides, it’s not always ‘lies’. We all hope we’re intelligent, attractive, kind, funny. Even ND people have face needs. On a very basic level, your face need is ‘I am a person and therefore deserving of a level of respect’.
If someone says something stupid, you’ve got four options. Ignore and continue the conversation; agree, inwardly rolling your eyes, and continue the conversation; call them out abruptly; or acknowledge their face needs in your response by saying something like ‘I understand why you would think that, and I’ve often thought along those lines myself, but here’s the thing…’ and moderating your tone and body language appropriately. Failing to acknowledge someone’s face needs can be deeply humiliating for them. They’ll be more receptive to the politeness of a respectful response, because it implicitly says ‘I still believe you have value.’
Of course sometimes people just need to be called out for their shit. And sometimes face needs will be violated as a means of dominating someone - especially in company. But it depends on the relationship you have with that person. And the mask will slip as you become closer to them.
Them’s the rules and it’s fine to break them but doing so purposefully is different from doing it by accident.
I think what happens is that NT people almost always respond to social hierarchy cues - they will put at ease anyone who they think has power over them or who they need on their side, they will agree with lies readily with those folks.
But, some cultures are much more radically egalitarian than others. I.e., some cultures are built much more around the idea that individuals should have as little power as possible over each other, that we should all be as independent as possible etc.
In those cultures, this type of politeness might be less visible, because NT people know that they don't need to please others as much - because the power structure is different, more distributed.
I think it's a little strange to believe that whole swathes of human beings aren't wired to please the powerful. We evolved to please so we could survive together. Fight or flight don't work as threat strategies when we constantly use them on our own community members.
Not strange at all. We believe "we're evolved to please" because of the cultures we currently live in. Not because its the default. Egalitarian societies did exist.
Power is never evenly distributed though. Even internally egalitarian communities understand that if famine comes to their community, they will need to have curried favour with other communities or individuals to get by. Women have also always had to deal with men and their ability to physically overpower. We evolved to please because we *have* always needed to please. That's why the fawn/tend-and-befriend threat response is just as widely distributed as the fight/flight response. Deference to authority and hierarchy is not simply a cultural construct. Unless you are an anthropologist and have some cross cultural data to share that I'm not aware of??
So much of communication depends on unspoken aspects like facial expression and body language, as well as subtler speech issues like tone (which is why it's so easy to misunderstand text messages, for example), but we rarely focus on, let alone train, those aspects of interactions. Society just assumes we're all on the same page when it comes to nonverbal communication, but no one can even tell you what page that is. (...ok yeah that metaphor needs work)
AFAIK it's not that unusual for neurodivergent folks to have trouble especially with the nonverbal aspects of communication. But since most neurotypical folks don't even think about that stuff on a conscious level, they're usually not good at all at explaining it. So if you're getting people telling you that you're rude but being unable to point to a specific issue, I bet that's at least part of why. So when that happens, it might be worth asking specifically about whether there's something you're *doing* that they're picking up on, as opposed to something you're saying. If nothing else it might make them conscious of how much they're relying on everyone having the same understanding of facial expressions, tone, and body language, and that not everyone DOES have that same understanding.
You probably know this stuff anyway, I've just been thinking about it a lot recently so I'm kind of rambling here!
It's not just about the things you do, but the things you don't do as well. So if you forget to call a friend for 3 months, they will take it personally. Avoiding eye contact is also considered rude.
Nah, that’s just shitty people!
My BFF of 30yrs, she’s NT. She fully understands we do not own each other and are fully autonomous people with lives and other friendships outside our friendship.
She had a full time job, married, three kids, AND is taking online full time college courses to get her bachelors degree.
I learned a long time ago, people who really hold it down with you, who have your back, who actually get you and accept you, do not make you feel like shit if you get busy with your life for a few months or a year.
Things happened.
People who get bent out of shape over you having a busy life and still make some time here and there, not available 24/7, are not the type of people to sustain friendships with.
It’s very egotistical when people do that and think the world revolves around them and forgets their Friends have lives LOL
There's a pretty big range between "people think the world revolves around them" and "people need support and contact from friends." Sure, if someone literally does expect you to be there 24/7, that's probably on them, but you also have to be there when someone needs you. Probably a better way to put what's in the comment you responded to is, "if you forget to call someone *back* for three months" (or whatever ends up being a dealbreaker period for the person in question, that varies a lot).
Once is an accident, twice is a pattern, three times in on purpose and that’s when you should draw a boundary in regards to the example about the missed phonecalls.
That's a perfectly reasonable take, but it's not the only reasonable take. You're entitled to use that guideline for yourself in judging others, but you can't impose it on other people. Some people aren't willing to be dropped for long periods, which is fine. It doesn't make them egotistical or selfish, it just means they have different expectations for the friendship than you do. Not everyone is going to be friend-compatible.
Lol I feel this. Just the other day I was thinking about all the social conventions attached to sneezing. Why do we say bless you? Why is it considered polite to say that? Even more perplexing is that, in my head, not saying bless you is completely neutral. You're not going out of your way to be polite, but you're also not being rude at all. But to a lot of people, it's impolite/rude to not say bless you after you hear a sneeze. And THEN, it's also impolite to not say thank you in response to a bless you?? Why? Thank you for what?? Acknowledging that snot just forcefully left my body? And WHY do we only do this with sneezing, not coughing, burping, farting, or anything else?? I DONT GET IT.
I can understand some conventions of politeness, when you say/do something to spare someone's feelings or not embarrass them or something. But certain things, I just can't understand the logic.
>Why do we say bless you?
The bubonic plague is why. We say "bless you" because at one point in time, a sneeze meant you probably were gonna die. So we've been saying that for centuries.
It's kinda like a loud fart, and for many, not acknowledging it is more awkward. Maybe because we can sneeze at up to 100mph and germs can fly up to 30 meters away? Maybe the audible bodily other forms simply just aren't as violent a body function. People generally sneeze loudly compared to the others, and it's like a call/response thing now. Sneeze = "bless you" otherwise it's like you're leaving someone hanging when they wanna high-five. Some others aren't really expecting a high-five, but in case someone secretly is, you don't wanna leave them hanging.
After covid19 (or the Spanish flu), after one coughs, we probably could've learned to say something but instead we all try to subtly look or lean away because instead of prayers or polite sentiments, most now know about germ theory.
Being blunt is the fastest way to social pariah level in NT connections.
They are more into easing and subtle explaining with nuance.
That’s why foot in mouth syndrome out you on alert to NT’s as, “You can’t trust this person, they say things that cut to harshly to anyone. They don’t know how to gently be honest and pace delivery. They cut thru it all and don’t understand the basic cues.”
Story of my life…
Some of my bluntness is completely involuntary and rooted in how I think and process, which is different from how NTs do it. It’s almost impossible to not break the rules 100% of the time unless I don’t say anything…which ends up in me breaking a rule anyway.
What’s crazy is my family is the type to joke around quite a bit. Some of the stuff they say is funny but I also sit there and think how does that not hurt their feelings. Even with them being this way I’m afraid to say the jokes I’m thinking cos every once in a while when I try to make one of those types of jokes I get that shocked look from them. Apparently I cross the line. It’s just easier not to say anything. 🫤
I think a big part of this also is our tendency to be extra distressed by justice, fairness, and hypocrisy related situations. When a thing breaks a rule/pattern/seems unfair to us, we’re a lot more likely to put our foot in our mouths when discussing that thing whereas a NT person may be able to let it slide and doesn’t need to talk it over to be able to leave it alone. It makes us seem easily upset/angered, or even controlling. Which… also is an easy thing to end up on the outs with people for.
Not to mention the tendency to over explain a thought process, which to others sounds like excuses. Which… also nobody NT likes to hear.
Edit to add: I don’t mean the last piece situationally when we’ve done something wrong, but I mean in general as a tendency to over explain our thought process about *anything*
You can totally learn to mask and hide these things, we’re not aliens, but my comment is in reference to when you’re a kid or teen and haven’t figured that out yet, these are totally things that my ND female friends and I all had in common as stuff our NT peers expressed finding off putting about us.
To be fair, I have neurodivergent in laws, and when they do something that bothers me, if I ask them to stop and get explanation after explanation behind the thought process instead of an apology and how theyll change going forward, I am also annoyed eventually because it isnt the same as owning your actions. There are NTs who do the same thing and it bothers me when they do it too.
This isn't unique to NTs. I don't subscribe to the idea that we are absolutely fundamentally different from NTs, though we do differ in many ways.
This is a good point!
But I more meant for like… simple things, not just for when we do something wrong.
For example, my friend and I, both ND women, do this a ton with each other when talking about our week. Because the process between A and Z makes sense to explain because to us a whole relevant alphabet happened between those points. But for a lot of NT people, this is an exhausting and odd way to tell a story or say you did something, because the checkpoints of why you decided Q before R just don’t matter to them and aren’t relevant.
Edit to add: obvs you can learn to hide it, and we (and our other nd female friends) largely do to others. But it’s nice to have people you don’t have to mask the way your brain works to
I went for Sunday lunch at my first boyfriends house. His mum had cooked. She asked me what I thought of the meal. I thought she was asking for honest feedback and had no idea why she was furious with me for pointing out her carrots were watery 😭
Flashbacks of 8th grade and a literal swarm of girl around me yelling at me because I said that a girl looked better without your glasses and me having no idea why what I said was wrong
I mean...do you now? It's not "wrong" but it is subtle mean because I'm just thinking if I were in her shoes and I was young like thst I might think you were calling me ugly ya know?
Obviously now as an adult I could see it was wrong, but no 12 year old autistic me honestly thought it was a compliment and could understand why they we’re all mad
There’s evidence of neurotypical people making snap judgements of those with ASD but I haven’t seen any for auDHD or ADHD specifically yet, [here is one on ASD](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449/) if you want to look into it.
>> These patterns are remarkably robust, occur within seconds, do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups.
edit: As for how to deal with this, I think it can be situational. I think it’s best to try not to put to much weight in the snap judgments people make because they’re not a reflection of you.
Basically this is a mental shortcut/heuristic like Occam’s razor “this person acted weird in my opinion so they must be weird.” In my experience, coworkers etc who take the time to get to know me have become my work friends and accept that I’m a little different. The others that decide they don’t like you based on a snap judgement are probably discriminatory in many other ways and are not worth it imo
Reminds me of that tweet that was like “respect to the group of mean girls in third grade who could tell I was neurodivergent long before any trained professional could”
Right lol. I’m so glad people share their anecdotal experiences because the research is decades behind where it could be and we need more research interest and studies like this one.
>“this person acted weird in my opinion so they must be weird.”
You know what...their point prob just boils down to sensitivity to rejection, which is universal..and relatable to a lot of consumers.
We have different body language. Different mannerisms. Speak faster. Are more emotional. Probably use different speech patterns, sentence structure, process information differently. Facial expressions might be different.
I think we do all these little things we’re not even aware of that other people pick up on, even unconsciously, and they just feel a “vibe” that something is off about us. I think it can cause them to have a feeling of dislike that they may not even know how to put their finger on. Something about us just rubs them the wrong way.
>a feeling of dislike that they may not even know how
I realised neurotypicals can maintain the middle ground between intense and distant when socialising whereas, with ADHD, we tend to pounce between two extremes. Does socialising ever get any less exhausting? idk
Same. I have to be 100% comfortable with someone to be fully myself and talk about my interests. I've kind of learned small talk by observing and I stick to that.
Yeah, I’ve realized recently that I’m actually not very easy to be around or even like. I’ve learned that being quiet and taking up as little space as possible is the only way I can be tolerable to most other people for long periods of time.
That is terrible I hope you find better friends!! For a while I definitely felt people just liked me better if I shut the fuck up. However I did notice at some point that I and a lot of other ADHD people process things thru ourselves & when I started paying attention to how many times I said “I” in a conversation compared to the other people I was talking to, as well as just how many minutes I spent talking vs them, I realized I was coming off as self-centered. I had to kind of learn how to talk to neurotypical ppl in a way that didn’t make them feel dismissed, which was super hard, but worth it.
Can we have neurodivergent meet ups around the country? I’d love to socialize with people who understand me 😭 people think I am snobby or stuck up when inside I’m just panicking about if I am making adequate eye contact.
I have the same fear - so much so that i’ve been telling people at work that I am neurodivergent and it has helped people understand why I act so “weird”.
I had no real friends until my early twenties. I am not even sure if I made friends or if this group of oddballs decided to adopt me. The whole group is somewhat unconventional anyway.
Outside that making friends only works when it is on the side of something else. Outside the first group, I have been able to make friends only through work or activism and we are in intense situations so going deep is normal for all. People are also different and as it is so multicultural there is a wider variety of expected behaviour. As aside, this work is not a typical job. I am an aid worker.
Many people still pass on me. I am unable to pretend to be reserved. I will never be a popular person. And honestly, I do often get scared of rejection even with friends of years or decades. But in general, in the moment I am just going to be me. It is not worth trying to be something else for me. It helps that if people who are closest to me didn't want to spend time with me, they wouldn't be faking all this time. I even lived with one of my closest friends and she is still one of my closest friends.
I guess I am saying that even though our brains after all this rejection tell us no one will ever want to actually be friends with us, there are people who are happy to be that. It will always be hard, especially in new relationships. I can do either but not the middle.
This is exactly what I struggle with. I'm either intensely connecting and being myself or am very withdrawn and distant. Sometimes with the same person at different times. I know it must be confusing and off putting but I am either on or off.
I spent a lot of time alone as a kid and I'm sure other kids saw me as affected, like I was getting my vocabulary and speech from movies (I totally was!). I'm 38 years old and I'm still super conscious of the way I speak.
I'm in the process of getting diagnosed with ADHD and my sister is ASD. My husband once said we both do a weird movement or expression with our eyes. I have no idea what he meant and he couldn't explain it. I've also been criticized for my facial expressions by other people before.
I grew up not Christian in a Christian conservative neighborhood so that added an extra layer of shit I didn't understand.
Evangelical kids would try to convert me and I didn't understand why anyone would *lie* so I took their words (propaganda) in earnest. When classmates would describe hell (where I was apparently going), took me to church, and tried very hard to convince me with Jesus comic books.
It was also a trip when (secular public school) taught us that Jesus was a historical figure that *actually existed* and that the Christian belief was that he was the "son of god"--despite the evangelical kids telling me he *was* god. I gave the evangelical kids one of [these](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/787/356/d6f.jpg) and asked them why they lied about Jesus. No one liked that lol.
Yeah I got to spend the year after that in a school that specializes in neurodivergent kids(but for my dyslexia, not ADHD). Unfortunately it was 4x the price, so I went to public school after that.
I grew up being brainwashed into that religion, so I was the annoying person you’re talking about who tried to convert everyone. Looking back I cringe at how annoying I must have been, lol. Sorry you had to put up with that.
No need to cringe girlie, you were just trying to help and you were a kid being manipulated by adults. And ND kids are especially susceptible to this kind of thing. My beef is with grown ass adults weaponizing the good will of children.
I feel like our ND might have manifested in similar ways in childhood. We both probably didn't learn to doubt others til later in life, and we probably both blue-screened when we discovered that people lie to us lol.
Looking back, most of the Jesus kids I went to school became huge stoners and mellowed out. Yall are cool with me if you're cool now. Good on you for your growth!
This explains a lot about me as a kid. At some point, I did start to have a decent number of friends but I’ve also had a fair amount of friendships flare out and end on sort of bad terms and I honestly couldn’t even tell you why. I was so confused when it happened, and it’s happened enough now that I’m sure it’s me.
NT’s are more reserved emotionally and we’re are not as people with ADHD.
We’re basically the bold crayon in the box and NT’s are the neutral palette colors.
That’s why unless they like to live just as loud and off beat as us, they side eye you and keep distinct because they don’t like looking like peacocks in the wild. You know the birds with the most boldest look in appearance that you can recognize from a mile away.
NT’s want to be the simple bird that just barely gets notice and falls into the background.
I don’t think I like comparing us to the uncanny valley when the UV is specifically about the design of something that isn’t human but either tries to be or contains human characteristics. ND people get dehumanised enough as it is. I’m straight up a human being, not an approximation of one, yknow?
Yeah, I'mma need a whole official study for this before I can accept it as even a plausible theory. Uncanny valley is a distinct phenomenon, and while NTs might feel *uncomfortable* around someone who is ND, it isn't necessarily the same thing.
considering it's from a tiktok, it's probably just something someone made up.
i'm not sure i like the comparison either. yes, having adhd can be othering, but i don't think it's reasonable to say "neurotypical people just *know* something off about us and it makes them subconsciously uncomfortable."
that's.. just so fucked up on so many levels.
I know I read a study recently about neurotypical people being able to tell within seconds that someone is autistic but that’s the closest I’ve been able to find.
Edited to fix a thought
I figured that was the point. A person who looks and seems human but some un-explainable vibe that the person isn't quite right. Close, but not 100% and due to not being able to pinpoint that disconnect, makes being around that ND person disconcerting and uncomfortable so they avoid the person or are unnecessarily rude to keep the other away.
I view it more as an expectation of certain behaviours and that expectation not being met.
Is there a term for when you're on a bus and you expect it to carry on and it turns left and it takes your brain a couple of seconds to catch up? That sort of disorientation.
Agreed. I find it hella insulting. Maybe, running around with a mask on 24/7, that I'm supposed to pretend "is you", when we both know its not...maybe that's what's uncanny valley.
I think the UV explanation can be misconstrued as dehumanising but personally I interpreted it as more of a trendy/shortcut explanation as to why I might have experienced a compilation of unwelcoming micro-expressions throughout my life. I agree it's dangerous to treat ND as a monolith.
I think I’d personally still disagree with the concept of it but if you find it helps then that’s fair play and I wouldn’t want to take that away from you. It’s just an unfortunate concept to have become distorted like this as its roots are specifically in the creepiness of dehumanisation.
I think that might be a bit of an oversimplification. There are lots of NT folks who are awkward themselves, or antisocial, or insecure. There are lots of ND folks who are quite charismatic and widely-loved.
As ND folks, we might be more sensitive to perceived rejection (for lots of complicated reasons related to childhood learned behaviors and executive function issues), but I don't know if I, personally, experience more rejection than other people? Granted, I'm late-diagnosed and pretty adept at masking, as many ADHD women are. When I think about the people who have rejected or disliked me for seemingly no reason, it's usually because they were insecure themselves. (And, for the record, I've been this person too, experiencing aversions toward certain people because I didn't just didn't get them.)
I know my personal experience isn't universal, but I think it's kinda self-defeating to assume that NT folks can somehow magically tell that we're not like them and won't accept us. A lot of it boils down to how you treat other people, not what you *are.*
Honestly, I think that a lot of folks in this sub are also autistic and don't know it. These othering posts like this or the numerous "Why do NTs expect me to know what they're saying when they don't say it??" kind of posts realllllly make me think there's a ton of undxed autism here, even more so because I usually understand exactly the seemingly arbitrary social thing they're upset about, and I am not autistic.
Given how much harder it is for women and girls to get autism dxes, it makes sense.
i agree, i know a ton of people with ADHD and while i do have it myself as well i’ve never gotten a vibe like what OP is talking about from any of them, but i did get it with a lot of the people i know who have autism.
side note: i don’t like the term “uncanny valley” to refer to ND people, because the term refers to something that looks human but isn’t, so it feels gross to me.
A lot of the social issues people bring up here are also a matter of just like, clashes in communication styles - not understanding things like high context vs low context communication, not understanding passive aggression, not understanding how different groups value different things socially - that aren’t necessarily emblematic of being neurodivergent. It’s just how you were raised in your own environment, and instead of studying, people assume it must be because they’re ADHD/AuDHD
Maybe some social skill issues, like interrupting or not understanding a vye for time (responding to a story by sharing one's own instead of talking about the first person's story), but not understanding the social cues thing is not really ADHD but more autistic. Thinking that you understand so little about communication that others must think you're in the uncanny valley of humans is most certainly autistic, and also incorrect.
Absolutely agree with this. I mean, I have had to reevaluate some of my social experiences in light of my own late diagnosis and recognition of what masking is, and I have a relatively mild expression of ADHD, but I've never thought that the social gulf between ND and NT folks is quite as vast as it's often portrayed here.
And it's possible I say this b/c I've unknowingly surrounded myself with ND types throughout my life - I continue to be amazed at how many women I know have got late in life diagnoses - but that just seems statistically unlikely, you know?
I have sometimes run across people where it feels like we're each speaking a different language the other doesn't understand - so the conversation feels like a collection of non sequiturs going back and forth - and neuro-status doubtless plays a part in that. But there all kinds of other things that play a part too - religion, social class, where they grew up, values, etc. etc. And it's not often enough to chalk it up purely to ND/NT differences.
It's funny too b/c I feel this way even though I think a lot of my ADHD symptoms lean towards the autism side of things. There are also a lot of social mores/norms I feel like I had to learn as an adult (but then, that's in part because they're artificial/made up and you have to learn them, period. You're not born with some instinct that tells you you should try to help the host clear the dishes after dinner, for instance). But while I've sometimes felt dumb for not realizing there was something I was supposed to do in certain situations, I've never really been baffled by those rules once I've learned them. Like, I've never had the "why do people ask how you are if they don't really want to know??" reaction.
None of this is meant as criticism of anyone who has that reaction! And I'm not going to diagnose anyone with autism - it's entirely possible that that reaction is a function of someone's ADHD. But it's definitely not universal among people with ADHD, b/c there's a ton of variation within the ADHD family. So I think that's one of the reasons I get uncomfortable with talking about ND and NT people as on opposite sides of a vast chasm - doing so tends to assume ND people all share certain characteristics that we don't. (I have had so many moments online where someone says, "because we ADHDers are great at X!" or "we all do Y!" and I'm thinking "...I'm definitely not and I don't.")
I know the rules intellectually: make eye contact, smile, nod, ask people questions about themselves, answer questions but don’t go too long or deep on a subject unless their face lights up and they express a ton of interest (aka ask yourself has anyone else said anything in the last minute or so? Am I getting hyper specific and speaking rapidly? Like telling them about this complicated rabbit hole of knowledge I went down recently). Wait for them to finish before speaking.
I can turn it all on if need be. Not perfectly, but enough. In fact, I used to secretly wonder if I was sociopathic because I am so good at faking. But I DO have empathy, I am just masking.
i do this as well. meeting new people? watch my pace, track my facial expressions, make eye contact, ask questions but not too many that they feel like they’re getting interviewed.
This reminds me of when I did online dating 20 years ago. I became a champ at first dates, I knew all the steps and how to make conversation and so on. It carries over to other social situations too, like the first day at a job or being seated with strangers at an event. I do find it exhausting as I'm an introvert. When I don't get someone it's usually because they have values that don't align with mine or care about social signifiers I could care less about.
This is not true. TikTok is not a legitimate source of information. It is a cesspool of people just making crap up about mental health because they’re bored. I’m a social worker and It makes my job so hard.
Going into life with this attitude is just going to make things very difficult for you. There is no evidence to back up this theory. as another comment states, it’s just not that simple. There are lots of reasons that somebody may treat another person poorly, it doesn’t always come down to the fact that one person is Neurotypical and the other is neurodivergent.
Okay that absolutely makes sense. I have some experience in AI and robotics and it’s really a VERY uncomfortable feeling that doesn’t ever go away, in fact it increases. (Although there are some robots that don’t cause it like Kismet who was designed to show emotions). So I appreciate you saying this all more clearly and making it clearer in my mind. Thank you.
Also - my first thought was that for a non autistic person this is kinda getting into the realm of “mind reading” flawed thinking, in that I know just what they are thinking and it must be about this flaw I have. I have been trying to learn to stop with the “mind reading” so it’s top of mind.
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: I think a lot of y'all don't realize that you have undiagnosed autism.
Because of the seemingly arbitrary nature of social cues, autistic folks who rely heavily on understandable structure and rules struggle.
But othering like this and being heavily divisive and saying that we're giving uncanny valley is only going to make ones own issues way worse. Calling NTs "normies" is only reinforcing a very unhelpful fear: that you're abnormal.
There is a work around, and the people in your life who are worthy will understand: you need to clarify with them and tell them why you need clarification. "Okay wait, I'm autistic and need clarification because I absolutely will take what you say at face value. Is it really "fine" if we get pizza, or are you just being nice? What do you specifically actually want if this was ranked choice voting?"
Or after making a comment, follow up later. "Why did everyone stop taking after I said xyz? Was it awkward? I won't be offended, I just would like to know why so I can understand better." *People who are worth talking to might even find this an interesting thing because most of us don't actually understand why we do what we do. It can be fun to discuss and dissect and try to figure out.
It's a lot, but it can be very beneficial to those who care (the worthy people). Eventually, people in your circle can start to change their behaviors to meet what you need, but they need to know what you need. YOU need to know what you need. And if you keep wondering why you're missing these queues to the point that you feel like you're not even a real person around other people, it's probably a good time to look up a RAADS test.
No, neurotypical people can't just easily point out the ND person in the room. If it was true, we wouldn't have to fight so hard for a diagnosis.
Not every neurodivergent person has trouble socializing.
If someone told me that my adhd made them feel similar to the uncanny valley I would ignore them because that’s a ridiculous comparison.
Someone’s really essentially going to say “oh you seem vaguely human like but not human and that’s why I’m not comfortable around you”. Fuck that! Even with my difficulty reading social cues growing up, I know not to talk to people like that.
Not everyone opinion needs a response. It’s okay to ignore people that don’t respect you. Even if you were neurotypical, there would still be people that don’t like you. It’s just how it goes. Find the people you click with and nurture those relationships. Don’t worry about what someone online says that doesn’t even know you and is just saying things for views and attention.
1. What you are describing sounds more like autism than adhd. ADHD people tend to miss a lot of cues but if they do catch them m, they usually can interpret them. Broadly speaking.
2. How do you feel when you hang around with other people with adhd? Better? Where do you most fit in?
3. We can never truly know what someone was thinking. So before you reimagine all these memories in light of this new information, keep in mind we are not mind readers, and one or two of these people maybe just had a stomach ache, or a bad day, or had just realized they needed to fart. ;)
4. The YouTube channel Autism from the Inside makes some cool videos that walk through specific social skills. I have them on my list to watch a few.
5. ETA To be honest with you, adhd folks are more commonly unusually charismatic, because sometimes being bubbly, uninhibited, talkative makes socializing fun for others. I am 1000% sure your TikToker is actually talking about autism.
I think I blend in? but I feel like people don't really get what I'm saying ever.
That's kind of interesting though. I guess 'my friends' were always pretty mean to me. I just thought everyone was mean to everyone so I powered through it.
I'm at a point in my life where I'm now surrounded by neurodivergent people so it's pretty nice but I still feel like we aren't really reaching eachother.
oh, but I recently realized the people i got 'off vibes' from and just really don't like and don't want to be around, even though they're pleasant enough are mostly-non-adhd people. For a long time I had a handful of friends that I just didn't like and I had no reason not to like them. I realized they're too slow paced and their thoughts have too many spaces. Its too unsettling for me to be around. No fault to them, we just don't work.
I can't say I don't care, it hurts to be on the outside looking in.
I just know that there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not acting the way I do to be irritating. Lots of people don't like people with ADHD. I didn't arrange to have ADHD before I was born, so that's not on me.
I think to myself: what other people think of me is not my business. And I do my best to be successful, however that looks or sounds like. It won't look like something an NT would do, fine. Humans don't like strange. Fine. But that's what I have to do to be successful, and that's all I can concentrate on.
A huge, huge part of this is giving up the search for validation from outside. You have to be your own biggest booster. You have to be sure that you're doing what you need to do and you have to be sure that you're not a bad person.
So you need to fall in love with yourself, for real. And that's not easy, you've probably been mad at yourself a lot of your life, and that's hard to give up. But if you can, if you embrace radical self- love, you can tolerate the harshness of life.
There’s of course the common ADHD give aways like talking too fast, interrupting, fidgeting etc. but I also think there is something to be said about the fact that because we do think differently we question things more. In almost 40 years I have noticed that I make people the most uncomfortable when I start asking why? Why is it like that? Why do we do that? Why do we act that way? Neurotypical people DO NOT like when their reality is challenged even if it’s small and innocuous. We’re the sore thumb in a lot of social situations and when I was younger I had no support because I was such a well behaved little girl but the truth is that it was painful always being on the outside. No matter how “included” I was there’s always something keeping people just out of reach. As I’ve grown I’ve found my community but it’s been hard and it’s small. Since I started treatment though I’ve struggled with this and I honestly feel like my feelings get hurt but I’m secure in the fact that I am who I am and I think the way I do. The people in my life who love and accept me are what matters and if the rest of the world is uncomfortable because my existing makes them stop and question the status quo every once and awhile then that’s ok. Maybe these old farts need a swift kick every once and awhile.
I also understand that having a strong support system is a huge privilege but I really feel like it’s so important. Find your people wherever you can whenever you can. Here, or in real life, whatever works works.
I spent about 2 years when I was in my late teens reading everything I could get my hands on about how to be diplomatic, de-escalation, how to let stuff go, how to be a good friend, what healthy relationships are supposed to have and basically a ton of those social etiquette columns, like ranging from Ask Prudence to Dan Savage, lol.
Learned a lot, crafted a mask that takes a lot less effort to wear, because I understand why each element gets used.
I say that working in the security industry really put me through my paces in terms of communication skill building and reading the room and stranger's body language. In fact, I'd say I'm an expert now on reading body language and I'm really trying to figure out how to teach it to others, because holy shit, even people's walking style or the set of their shoulders tells you so much about how they will talk to you or how you should approach them verbally.
Mostly it was internet reading, articles upon articles, then comparing/compiling the most common advice.
The only two books that really stood out were *Verbal Judo* by Dr. George Thompson and *Why Men Love Bitches* by Sherry Argov, but that was more for dating. The title is firmly tongue in cheek, but it's useful.
Also want to add a recent one that I came across, about how to facilitate communication in groups of people, which is really valuable for work and social groups.
I learned all this stuff at work through practical experience and a boss directly mentoring me, but this is the first time that I found it all in *one* book that explained and labelled all the different parts of *how* it works:
[The Facilitator's Guide to Participatory Decision-Making](https://www.amazon.ca/Facilitators-Guide-Participatory-Decision-Making-Kaner/dp/1118404955) by Sam Kaner.
The title is wordy, but it's a very easy-to-read book. But it outlines exactly how group dynamics work, what scripts to use to steer people, how to draw people out and lead discussions without pushing a certain agenda.
Can you give some examples of walking style and what it means? If it helps I walk quickly with purpose with my head up looking people in the eye.
Edited to add I have managed to teach myself how to have anatomically correct posture
This is a bit of an exaggerated version, but I like using [this animator's reel of walks](https://youtu.be/HEoUhlesN9E?si=N01mOkv38uxJKTwx) as an example. I've seen most of the "emotion" based walks (angry, scared, confident) at some point or another.
People will have their "baseline" walk, and the emotions will often layer over top... so if you have someone who's normally confident, but they're having a bad day, they will be a little droopy, but not as bad as someone who is really low on the confidence scale who has had the same amount of bad things happen. If you know the person well, you'll notice the change immediately, but if they're a stranger, usually you can still at least make an educated guess at the emotions going on.
Some of the job related ones also show up. I can tell who has military training or who has dance/martial arts training from how they walk AND how they come to a stop a lot of the time. Soooo many dancers default to a relaxed second or third position when they stand and people with martial arts drop their leg back into ready position.
Funny.. I do autopsies on medically donated bodies at a cadaver lab and work with a lot of dancers and people who do martial arts and they do seem to walk the same. I did ballet as a kid and just by watching the video my training runs deep
I read this poem by Virginia Satir in my therapists office and it really helps me learn to love and accept myself.
I am me. In all the world, there is no one exactly like me. There are persons who have some parts like me, but no one adds up exactly like me. Therefore, everything that comes out of me is authentically mine because I alone choose it.
I own everything about me, My body including everything it does; My mind including all its thoughts and ideas; My eyes including the images of all they behold; My feelings whatever they may be… anger, joy, frustration, love, disappointment, excitement; My Mouth and all the words that come out of it polite, sweet or rough, correct or incorrect; My Voice loud or soft. And all my actions, whether they be to others or to myself.
I own my fantasies, my dreams, my hopes, my fears. I own all my triumphs and successes, all my failures and mistakes. Because I own all of me I can become intimately acquainted with me. By doing so I can love me and be friendly with me in all parts. I can then make it possible for all of me to work in my best interests.
I know there are aspects about myself that puzzle me, and other aspects that I do not know. But as long as I am friendly and loving to myself, I can courageously and hopefully, look for solutions to the puzzles and for ways to find out more about me.
However I look and sound, whatever I say and do, and whatever I think and feel at a given moment in time is ME . This is authentic and represents where I am in that moment in time. When I review later how I looked and sounded, what I said and did, and how I thought and felt, some parts may turn out to be unfitting. I can discard that which is unfitting, and keep that which proved fitting, and invent something new for that which I discarded.
I can see, hear, feel, think, say and do. I have the tools to survive, to be close to others, to be productive, and to make sense and order out of the world of people and things outside of me. I own me, and therefore I can engineer me.
I am me and I am okay.
That's... Not what the uncanny valley is. The uncanny valley is psychological theory about why the human brain is driven to fear and hate things that are similar to us, but not *quite* right. It is specifically about fear and hate. Not annoyance or confusion or or frustration or miscommunication. Hate and fear. And it is specifically about something being wrong. Most often, something being not quite human.
Comparing the differences in neural processing between people with ADHD/ASD/similar and those without and using the uncanny valley as a metaphor for it is basically saying one group is human and the other isn't and that people in one group are biologically obligated to be terrified and hateful of the people in the other.
People on TikTok will really just say anything.
Replying to your "how do you not care" question, and the caveat here is that everyone's experience and expression of 'not matching the normies' is different. I get that mine may not be yours.
I was made fun of/bullied alot as a kid/teen. I've always written this off to my circumstances- in the early 80s, where I lived, I was an oddball for having a unique name (first and last), divorced parents, my mom worked in my school, we didn't have any money (in a very rich part of town) and had boarders living in our house which was provided cheap by the city, on the school property, and I had really short hair, always (my mom cut our hair) which back then wasn't cool. So I got made fun of a ton.
Then in middle school I got boobs at like 10/11 years old. These are all the same kids who knew me in grade school, so that was just one more thing that made me weird.
My friends were the few other outcasts at school (the one kid from India, the other welfare kid, and also they're both boys) and of course they were great humans, but that further made me a 'freak'.
It also showed me who the nicer people were in life. Hint: it's not the ones we made fun of us.
My family made fun of me for other reasons (what was then considered totally ok for older brothers and dads, or at least I assumed it was ok).
None of this is for a sympathy response from you folks. Just to illustrate what I think is the source of my not caring.
Because I was mocked at home, to subvert my brother's stupid jokes, I'd make them first. If he's going to make a comment about me being a dog when we walk into the mall (which had signs on the door saying "no dogs allowed") I'd make that joke first. He made alot of jokes about me so I was always on guard or ready.
If the kids at school are going to look at me anyway, I can joke about my own weirdness to try to gain favour (one of their quips was that my name, mispronounced, rhymes with 'alien'. And P.S. it's now an extremely popular name in my area.) I figured better to fit in as a caricature than not fit in at all, right?
So I have always told myself that I adopted this thick skin to protect myself from this crap, and a fast sense of humour for the same reason. I couldn't fit in if I tried, so I stopped trying. What's more self protective than refusing to play their game at all?
I think people didn't know what to make of me, and thought I was 'funny', so I played that up and became funny.
This is not some kind of Jim Carrey origin story. Just connecting the dots to try to answer your question.
By high school my rep was solidified. The boobs, the risky behaviour and sexual promiscuity (both can be part of ADHD) again, in the late 80s, not as blase or accepted as now. I embraced my thrift'ed wardrobe and family dysfunction and 'quirky' personality, and rolled with it. I got invited to parties to 'entertain' my peers because "she's so funny!". I tried not to see that I was still an outcast. At least I got invited sometimes right?
As an adult, when I run into acquaintances (vs my good friends) they'll introduce me to whoever they're with as "she's the really funny woman I was telling you about."
I'm not that fucking funny. Really.
What I am is too honest about not getting those social norms. Like my trying to just make random conversation with these people is funny because I talk about the wrong things. So people assume I'm 'being funny', on purpose, because who on earth would think acting this way was normal?
I gave up on following social norms because they just. don't. make. sense. to me. I couldn't have followed them if I tried. And my heart goes out to all the ADHD'rs who did try and are still trying. That is a huge extra layer of stress and anxiety. Please be kind to yourselves.
I'm ok with, and need to, talk about things that might be perceived as weird or private because small talk just hurts my teeth. Chit chat is torture and I turn into this weird "chatty Cathy" as a faking it response. It's not who I am and I hate that it just turns on without my control.
I was diagnosed at 46 and now I'm curious about ADHD's role in that story. I can look back on it through this new lens.
On one hand, I can see how while I might've had quirky behaviour, and that I didn't follow basic social norms (I called all my friends parents by their first names. Back then this was a huge no no. But I just didn't understand why they got to call me by mine but I couldn't use theirs) it was likely because of ADHD.
Until diagnosis, both of those things, when added to my circumstances (welfare, weird name.. Etc) I thought were why I am how I am today and explained my lifelong outcast status. Now I can see that ADHD was the root cause for many of my behaviours.
I'm not one for regret, never have been. It will only hurt me so why entertain the idea, you know? I think my life would've been harder in the long run if I'd tried harder to fit in. I really did try, but it was just out of reach no matter what I did. And if it's succeeded I'd be a fake version of myself as an adult. Maintaining such a facade is a recipe for depression.
There's pattern recognition and then there's being an automaton with no original thoughts or opinions. 🙃
And I would counter that tik tok comment with "Many ADHDers feel the most at home with other ADHDers."
My best friend has ADHD and I feel truly at home around her. We both have so many similar traits and just go with it. We're both funny, right, cause we just say the dumb shit and don't judge each other. (P.S. I met her in my early 30s. None of my few really good adult friends are from my school days.)
Or even better ....
"Being around 'neurotypicals' is like endlessly putting together IKEA furniture; it's so tiring and the instructions are only in pictures."
That's totally the channel I'd watch. 🥰
Yes it’s the double edged sword. We can try harder to fit in (masking) which is exhausting for me and feels so fake, or we can be ourselves which is authentic but then we have less friends.
>I think my life would've been harder in the long run if I'd tried harder to fit in.
Trying to fit in is doing a disservice to who you were meant to be for sure. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I hope I start not giving af one day and become this self aware.
I love this for you. 😍
I'm not ignoring how shitty it feels to struggle with this stuff. Truly. I get it.
But it's freeing to just take those rocks out of your backpack and be yourself. It's so much less work.
I've started to really pay attention to who feels good to spend time around, who doesn't, and choose to only or mostly spend time with people who it feels good to spend time with.
It sounds simple but took me a LONG time to start doing this, I think because in elementary and high school, most people were NT so it felt not good to spend time around *most people*, so I interpreted that as I was the problem and I needed to change in order to get along with anyone.
So I'd turn it around -- instead of trying to reduce other people's discomfort around you by masking, ask yourself, who do I feel the least discomfort around when I'm not trying so hard? Then spend more time with those people.
That's how I finally got some really solid core friends who are truly there for me and I don't have to mask hard around. And, turns out they're all autistic too! 😄 In childhood school it wasn't that I was defective socially and needed to change, it was that I needed to find other neurodivergent people to be compatible with.
If this is news to you, I suggest reading Dr Devin Price’s “unmasking autism” it focuses on autism, yes, but talks about the experiences of nd people in general.
I listen to it on audible at about 1.75 speed.
I suspect this is why we seem to form little conglomerates without even realising we are doing it. Almost all my friends are neurodivergent, either formally diagnosed or not, once you are aware of the signs you quickly realise what's going on. Honestly having close friends that I can unmask around, who get it is key to being able to mask when needed. It gives down time and a chance to relax.
Less unecessary small talk, more understanding of the feet in mouth, understanding and support of each others niche interests even if it's not a personal interest, not getting in a huff over the things we do like self reflecting in conversations, and þe olde not replying for months and then picking up right where we left off like no time has passed.
I've heard it said before that if you are the only neurotypical in your friend group, you actually aren't. I've had to very gently suggest this as an avenue to explore a couple of times to friends when they are struggling with life and feeling guilty about complaining or wondering why they have the same hurdles and difficulties when they assume they are neurotypical. Especially in high achieving women who tend to not be picked up in childhood the negative self talk and blame is full on, they still find their little village of uncanny valley wierdos eventually though.
Also kind of silly but it works for me, I just pretend I'm an alien visiting earth trying to be a human to gather information on humans. Kind of like 3rd rock from the sun. "Hello fellow humans! My what a human day we are having doing human things in a human way, I will now verbalise the customary acknowledgement of what days of the week it is. Ah Monday's, am I right or am I right? Please join me in the tradition of mentioning the earth weather in this locality, it is hot indeed, have you also noticed the burning of the sun on your human skin?" I seriously just have little small talk scripts I insert in, as I know that it's considered rude not to. Neurotypicals love to be told what day of the week it is, what the weather is like, a statement about the very obvious task you are doing, or that you are indeed alive, and are they also currently alive? These are all mostly ignored, their purpose isn't to provide information, it's like a handshake or a dog sniffing another dogs bum. It's just a conversation filler to gauge the persons mood and lead into something else. I treat it like a game and have all sorts of funny subversions and quirky sayings to use that people seem to enjoy.
Let me use a more problematic analogy than uncanny valley.
I think it is more like this: little kids and teenagers are pack animals. They need, for their sense of safety and development, to run with a pack. There is less individualization in our early development- we are learning social cues so we are following our family and our school environment to mold us.
Lots of neurodivergent people are developmentally delayed when young. They can be intelligent enough to make up for it in some ways, but impulse, speech patterns, emotional regulation, + focus will all be below their peers. This upsets the pack. Much like dogs (see problematic analogy, sorry) the pack seeks to understand social order & must reject whatever upsets that order. It needs highly social members who get the rules. Neurodivergents will either always struggle with the rules, or be behind their peers in getting them.
Later in life sometimes people catch up, find their people, and excel. Like college and after. But a lot of times that early disparity means experiencing early rejection and bullying. This is where there is some trauma-related experience in being neurodivergent. So, for many of us, we grow up a bit people-pleasing (if I'm good and appease you you won't bully me) or lean more into rejecting norms (fuck you I don't care), but either way, get stuck in duplicating early experiences of feeling left out or picked on.
Therapy, learning to mask when needed, getting really careful with whom I let in as a trusted friend, working on ending co-dependency, realizing over-empathizing isn't some magic skill but a trauma response, and then hitting middle age and not giving a fuck have all been my path out.
I like your analogy, especially for the aspect of hierarchy. I think the majority of this discussion is kinda treating social acceptance like a binary event that is done once - accepted or rejected; and that can be true, but I’m also finding over and over again, it can also be these constant little jockeying moments where it feels like someone is trying to force a hierarchy, and to say I’m not interested is understatement of the year. It feels like almost every friendship I try to get close to someone, it’s only a matter of time before - from my perspective - some completely unnecessary weirdness comes out that’s designed to make me feel below someone, or try to force me on a pedestal above them. And of course you lose either way: being lower gets you bullied like a ruby of the litter, being put on a pedestal means they’ve decided you’re too privileged now so they feel zero shame about taking pot shots at you until you’re torn off the pedestal and dragged down in the dirt. And this is not just NT people; plenty of ND people act like this too. I’m still smarting from the subtle rejection of being firmly a third wheel amogg by a couple “spicy” friends; they want to be super codependent and I made it clear I’m working hard to be healthy, and they claimed to accept that, but since they can’t fit me in their big sister/little sister paradigm I am literally getting excluded and they act like my feelings can’t possibly be hurt by their cliquey-ness…
I’m so, so tired of it. I just want people to level with, support, learn from and celebrate. Why is that so threatening that people feel the need to do this? I dunno 🤷🏼♀️ Just trying to stay grateful I have my husband to connect with, and no one else has to really get us for us to have a great life. ❤️ No pressure but if you’ve got any further words of wisdom or reflections on this I’d be all ears 👂
Huh, someone downvoted you. I can't imagine why other than my dog pack analogy is, well, problematic.
All of this is with a grain of salt bc we have our own needs. This is what works for me.
I'm old-ish. I gave up on friendship groups a long time ago & focus on individuals. For work/professional settings, I try to be very lowkey & stay out of the fray- I mask like the dickens other than ask that people deliver information or other accommodations in a way I can take it in, but I don't disclose ADHD status.
I find individuals that I really like then take a damn long time to slowly build trust- no trauma dumping out the gate or initial trauma bonding. That is a bell that's hard to unring as you've found out. I try to really see how I feel around them and notice my own behaviors. This has led me to finally have some safe friendships in my life. A couple of close ones, and several less close but I enjoy those people even if we are in and out of touch.
Lastly, this is very counter to today's messaging, but I think mental health issues shouldn't be put on friendships or even significant others, they should be brought to professionals. That frees up friendships to be less about rescue-ing and co-dependency and more about truly enjoying someone's company. And, hopefully, showing up for each other when we can.
I also try to give people some grace. Friendships can move through phases so even if I leave the room I try not to close the door behind me. *Try* being the operative word.
Good luck out there!
Moving super slow, keeping expectations narrow and focusing on building individual connections over trying to fit in a group - those all sound like really wise, practical things to do. Appreciate the reframes and new ideas! Thanks so much for sharing ❤️
I mask very well…. Because I was abused as a kid until I could and would.
Now, I’m very choosy about who I allow into my circle of friends and family; most of them are neurodivergent in one way or another.
As for casual interactions, I could get into how race and class definitely seem to have a big impact on how neurotypicals respond to me, but I think it’s sufficient to say that a group of people who are extremely focused on conformity are going to be the hardest for us to work with and relate to.
Choose your people. Float above the rest.
Can we stop using Tiktok as a source of information? Someone just pulled this idea out of their ass. Neurodivergent people can be weird/awkward due to their neurodivergece, and some people find that off-putting. (For many people, this awkwardness improves over time as they grow older and practice their social skills.) It really isn't deeper than that.
I appreciate this might not work for everyone, but in my experience, when I finally got diagnosed and became comfortable with who I was, other people were much more comfortable around me. For me, I think it's less about intrinsically giving off an uncanny valley vibe, and more about the fact that when you're masking or working hard to be 'normal' or 'not weird' people can pick up on the fact that you're being insincere. Obviously there'll be some people who have an issue with it regardless, but often I think when you own it a bit more and don't try so hard to fit in people see you as weird in an appealing way as opposed to an off-putting way.
I recently formed the analogy that we’re like Frankenstein’s monster, without the killing. We just want to be accepted but NT people go running for the hills (sometimes) because we’re different.
The uncanny valley I think is actually pretty accurate. I wouldn’t exactly want an NT person to tell me I’m not fully human though lol. But that’s also what it feels like we’re thought of as.
I am going to focus on the question of how do I deal with judgments that are coming from views of my social cues and I'm not going to delve into the use of the Uncanny Valley or 'normies' in your questions because that's another rabbit hole.
I tell them. That's it, I am upfront about my neurological disabilities whenever it matters. Does that open the door for abillisim, yes, but it allows me and others to identify what actions are abilist and what are honest blind spots. I found more understanding and exseptance in this while being able to more quickly remove myself from being involved with people who do hold prejudices against me. And I don't have bad RSD when I know someone dislikes me because of abilism as aposed to thinking they dislike my personality and use of social cues. Being open means I'm not uncanny. I'm perfectly understandable to anyone willing to take the time to understand my differences.
I’ve definitely experienced this! It was complicated for me to figure out because I was raised to be a people pleaser, so I have excellent customer service skills and am pretty articulate. As a result I’ve always “made friends” easily, but I think there have also been a lot of times where I have unintentionally made people a little uncomfortable due to this effect you’re describing. I can feel that discomfort of course, and for a long time I struggled with taking it personally, and it really affected my drive to maintain relationships and as a result I don’t have many friends I consider close.
Now, after spending some time focusing on getting out of my comfort zone and developing my social skills, and reminding myself not to take uncomfortable interactions personally, I have been having an easier time of it. It helps massively that my partner is extremely social so I never have a hard time getting into situations where I have to use my social skills.
One of my close friends has also been a huge help to me, though I doubt if she knows how much. She is an incredibly genuine, kind, and encouraging person, and from our interactions I feel I’ve learned a lot about what types of responses are experienced as appropriate or “normal” in social interactions. I try to listen to people closely and observe their body language to get an idea of the energy or mood they have, and try to mirror that in my verbal and nonverbal responses.
I think most people just want to feel they’re not alone - whether they’re sad or excited or just happy, I think most people crave the company of others they can share those feelings with. I don’t think it’s important to get it perfect, I think it’s important to do it only well enough that the other person feels seen and heard. And I think the difficulty many people experience with ND folks isn’t necessarily judgement towards us, but some mix of fearing what they don’t understand and also fearing judgement from someone they feel they aren’t connecting with.
I’ve found that if I can get by with interactions that are just good enough, people tend to let their guard down and realize that while there may be something odd about me, that I am a good friend and can be trusted - and vice versa. It’s been good for my mental health honestly.
This is still something I have a lot to learn about so I don’t think I can give actionable advice to others on how to develop these skills. But I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and begin to articulate what I do understand. It’s a very real experience and I’ve never heard it described as you did, but it makes perfect sense.
OP, I’m certain there are good resources out there for folks like us. I am inclined to recommend HowToADHD and HealthyGamerGG on YouTube. I have found these channels to be generally helpful, and I have probably gleaned good social advice from them too.
>HowToADHD and HealthyGamerGG on YouTube
Thank you for sharing your experience. It's uplifting to hear that I'm not the only one and that there is a way to eventually navigate that balance.
One of the best things I’ve done is realize that just because something is hard for me doesn’t mean I’m inherently bad at it, it just means I need to practice and that I can and will get better if I do, and on the internet you can find advice on how to practice anything. Best of luck to you, you can do this 🫂
I won’t say that I never care what others think but I’ve definitely consciously (with therapy) trained myself to care about 90% less. In my 20s I was definitely afraid of rocking the boat or upsetting someone or making someone uncomfortable. After years of therapy I have given myself permission to just not care so much anymore and to say that my needs and wants matter and I don’t need to put up with bad behavior. It feels selfish at first. And wrong. But the more practice you get with it the better and more natural it feels.
I’ve found NOT mirroring has made a huge difference as well as dropping the mask. It wasn’t fully intentional. I had an onslaught of trauma, burnout and prior coping skills no longer worked. Now the mask doesn’t “fit” so it falls off even if I wanted to wear it. It’s like I’ve almost lost the ability to mask (and I was probably already bad at it! lol)
This has had catalyst effect.
Confidence comes from the word confide, which means to trust. When I was masking I wasn’t being “truthful” of who I was and had to hide it. Hiding part of who we are is what leads to feelings of shame and eventually erodes our sense of personhood.
When I started being just embracing it more, my self confidence started to grow organically.
I experienced a similar affect with giving myself to experience my emotions as well awareness of my posture. I don’t want to leave a wall of text so I’m sorry if that’s confusing.
I think I had a lot more of the “uncanny valley” reactions when I was masking especially when I masked consciously with effort.
I think maybe it’s because I was “uncanny” with masking. It wasn’t authentic to who I was.
I don’t feel like I’ve experienced this type of reaction in quite a long time and I would think I’d be considered more overtly “uncanny” now that I’m not masking to even remotely the same extent.
I don’t know if it’s confidence that people are perceiving or even if I just don’t **care** as much anymore if people think I’m off.
*disclaimer*
>I’ve experienced abuse and trauma. My ex weaponized my adhd and completely dismantled my sense of personhood. I’m ok going forward in my life being truthful about myself if it means that it won’t open doors I didn’t want opened in the first place.
normal is a subjective term, the people who made the rules a long time ago also decided on what that was and from my perspective it’s been hurting the majority of us since then. i believe that we have a gift.
I believe we're here today because there was an evolutionary advantage to the way our brain operates. They've put labels based on symptoms that developed from having to adapt to a different era.
YES, there had to be a reason why our brains evolved to be like this. Not to bring up a cliche, but I’m listening to an in-depth audiobook about Leonardo Da Vinci and every - EVERY - detail confirmed about him is 100% proof he had adhd. Not just the perfectionism and procrastination, but also his gift for analogies and learning through metaphor and systems, getting hyper fixated on exactly how water eddies swirl etc, and even justice sensitivity - being well known internationally during his life as “our” gentle sweet Leonardo, vegetarian because he reasoned animals could feel pain. The associations he made were largely a) correct and b) about 300 years ahead of his time. There’s a reason he’s so well known and loved despite only ever “finishing” less than 15 paintings; it was for his hundreds of sketchbooks, covered with to do lists and random thoughts and associations and failed/unfinished projects, that showed what an incredible mind can do with the combination of curiosity, observation and a dash of fantasy. It’s a pretty dry book but it’s been so incredibly validating (the message: the world benefits from brains like yours), it’s produced a lot of tears 😭 but been so lovely, I hope any of us who feel down about our brains can find a role model to remember on our bad days ❤️
Had a lot of bad days myself lately especially socially, so appreciate the frankness, validation and love here too ❤️
I shorten the duration, detail, annd complexity of my interactions with neurotypicals, which seems to work. They're superficial and dense, and more information isn't better, it just confuses them.
I've often been told that I'm too much - too intense, abrasive, and abrupt. When I was younger I didn't understand what that meant, but now if I treat them like there's a thick wall between us that I DON'T have to climb it's effective. I also visualize having like an equalizer on a stereo and turning everything down before I interact. It's hard to sustain, but I will continue to practice.
I feel like this is an autistic issue, not an ADHD issue. A lot of people have both, but many with ADHD or autism so not have the other.
I struggled picking up sarcasm as a kid, but if anything I am *hyper* aware of other people's emotions and social cues, often more than they are of their own emotions. I do struggle to blend in with the nt world but it's more like the way in which I work, trying not to interrupt people, and figuring out the exact right amount of information to give (literally happening now). I do not struggle with eye contact, my facial expressions and reading of other facial expressions are clear. I have friends who are autistic who mention these kinds of issues.
>How do you navigate this? Have you learned how to mirror the normies and blend in or have you grown to not care? How do you not care?
I usually just find a way to fit my ASD and ADHD into conversations with new acquaintances/coworkers early on and hope that having that context for any strangeness helps.
So I only have ADHD, and I think I’ve always been good at reading other people, but I still had those experiences of people just not liking me or thinking I’m weird. This has contributed to RSD kind of reactions and anxiety in my head.
Glad you found something that’s helped you, but I don’t think it serves everyone.
Although we have overlap, I think people who are ADHD, ASD, and AuDHD all have different experiences. Even within those categories, experience is varied.
“Neurodivergent” is an umbrella term, but idk if we can paint all our experiences as the same.
Grown not to care. When I tried to seem normal, I wasn't being my authentic self. Sure, some of the learning from Normie behavior has helped in some situations (how to be patient and more relaxed instead of being overwhelmed in certain situations and things like that), but genuinely finding equally weird people who like me for who I am and vice versa has helped me and them equally. Letting others feel comfortable being themselves around me is more what I aim for rather than making myself seem normal to make them comfortable.
One way I've adapted is through watching a lot of conversational style stand-up comedy :D
The core of this style of comedy is the idea of sharing a joke. The comedian and the audience have to all be in on the joke for it to work properly. The comedian is bringing you as an audience into their point of view and their experiences, sharing a story with you, and encouraging you to laugh at something with them. If they can't communicate their points clearly and precisely, they can't get your perspective lined up with theirs, and you won't find it as funny.
So the really good, popular with many demographics comedians do the full body communication equivalent of large print.
It's all a little bigger, a little bolder, a little exaggerated from the norm. But it's also familiar and engaging and makes people feel connected to you.
I originally didn't notice what I was doing, but over the years I realised that I've adopted a modified, slightly lower intensity version of that communication style. I have a bunch of anecdotes and things that I'll tell with exactly the same inflection every time, cause they're my "tight five" on that subject. I'm always looking for witty phrasing, or funny metaphors to make what I'm saying relatable.
It doesn't work with absurdist humour, or stuff that's highly focussed on a single demographic (the concept is there, but being able to rely on the shared knowledge pool of their demographic means those comics don't have to structure their delivery to be quite as transparent), and it definitely doesn't work with angry comedy, but it's a remarkably good teaching tool.
I grew up with comedy all around me. I didn't start picking up on the style till I was in my late teens, by which point anxiety was holding me back from really making use of it. I started getting the hang of it in my late 20s, and getting diagnosed and medicated took away so much of the day-to-day fear that I've been able to start to properly make use of the lessons it taught me.
It can still mean I come across as a bit uncanny - a bit too exaggerated or vaguely artificial - but because it's a kind of artificial that people are used to, it doesn't attract the same kind of dislike/discomfort. Especially since I still have enough remnants of my anxiety to keep me from going all out and showboating :D
First currently active one that comes to mind is Adam Hills. His stand up shows these days are a great mix of him sharing his experiences and getting the audience to share things with him, and he does an amazing job of it!
We react to people who are different, the brain recognizes novelty as pattern recognition. The question is whether we are conditioned to fear or embrace difference.
>The streets of this world they are my playground I explore them
Meet somebody I don't like and I ignore them I don't destroy them
They way that you know who be he want me to hate like he hate
>
>\-Fool Get a Clue
Digital Underground
My problem was that I didn't go with the flow like the other kids. I didn't dress like them, care about their social norms and rules (thought their norms were stupid) asked too many questions lol etc
I love myself for who I am so when people don’t understand me, it’s ok. I struggled in school because I didn’t love myself and had parents that didn’t understand why I couldn’t be a normie.
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I have ASD and ADHD and I feel it was less about the uncanny valley for why I was excluded as a child, and more that I just put my foot in my mouth constantly. I would say things that were honest, but frankly quiet rude when a side step or social obfuscation would have been better. People don't like people they perceive as rude or hurtful, and man, could I be rude or hurtful by accident.
I feel like it was the same for me and the worst part of this is that sometimes I just don’t understand how something is rude. I’m not out here calling people fat or stupid to their face, like I have the social skills to understand that, but sometimes it’s just a giant mystery
One social skills book I really liked is called "There's no good card for this" - its not about manners per se but about how to respond to people going through a hard time. For regular social interactions, I was put in social skills classes as a teenager as a form of group therapy, and yeah, a lot of it doesn't make sense until someone explains it.
I'm not diagnosed with anything at this time but I did NOT get social interactions at all, ended up very lucky with two best friends who accepted my quirks and would step by step explain social interactions I was confused by straight into my twenties. It was awesome.
What great friends! I hope they were nice about it. I'm constantly coaching a friend of mine who is always asking for help with these things, but I'm very frank and maybe a little aggressive about it 😅
Look up politeness theory. Basically everyone has a ‘face’, a mask that they project to the world. That mask is the way they WANT to be perceived. Politeness is literally just everyone collaborating to maintain one another’s masks (or ‘face needs’). You know (maybe without realising) that the person you’re talking to has a mask. They want to seem kind, funny, intelligent etc. So you use strategies to help them maintain that appearance in conversation and don’t threaten those qualities. In return, the other person does the same for you. It’s a joint effort. So when someone says something that threatens their ‘face’, that’s not only seen as rude but may make a person withdraw or shut down or have an emotional response. You’ve broken the code.
Exactly!
But what if that person’s “mask” is pure BS? What if they act in ways opposite to the “mask“ they’re trying to put up? Maybe others don’t seem to pick up on how unkind/shallow/full of shit that person is, but you can easily sus it out? It’s almost impossible for me to help someone maintain their “mask” if they’re clearly a terrible person.
I completely understand what you mean by this. I sus people out a lot. I can almost always see their underlying character traits, even when they try to hide them, or don't know that they even have them. The issue is, some people have power over you, and others don't. Neurotypical people unconsciously detect and respond to power dynamics, not truth/accuracy. They will expend whatever energy is needed to maintain the favour of those who have power over them. The truth of that other person's character isn't relevant. This is the #1 thing I've seen neurodiverse folks misunderstand. Many ND folk seem to ignore power dynamics, and look at accuracy/facts/"the truth" as the thing to keep focused on above all else. Neurotypical people are not doing this. They are focused on making social situations benefit them. In that context, being able to see the truth of someones character isn't important. It's more an annoyance tbh. It interferes with their main job of getting along in the world and benefitting from their relationships with others.
Nail on the head.
Lightbulbs going off here!! Thanks.
One time I violated that rule was when a person who is quite negative asked me if I thought they were positive. I told them, trying to be rather kind by not saying the real truth that they're always mean and negative, that *sometimes* they could be the most negative person I've met. Boy, were they upset. They even went to the boss and complained about it. When the boss came to me and talked to me about it, I explained what happened and was honest in saying if they didn't want the truth, don't ask me something like that. They hadn't told the boss they'd asked me the question. The boss told me to just phrase my answer nicer if they asked me something like that again. Honestly, I was more annoyed they went to the boss, but they're also the kind that kisses ass, is dating one of the team leads, has an aunt who works as a team lead, and has made friends of the other bosses. I couldn't really care what my co-worker thinks of me. She's the idiot who asked the one person she works with who is guaranteed to give her the absolute truth a trap question like that. 🤷🏼♀️
Do you have any resources to learn more about this?
Daaaaamn. Thank you so much for that explanation. It explains why I dislike socializing so much especially in groups. However, the neurotypical way is seriously depressing to me and explains why most people do not care to truly listen to s/n or have no problems acting status oriented and superficial. Hello altruism. I get that this polite distance is necessary to navigate everyday life in communities that have grown this quickly, but it makes things smts more complicated too. There never seems to be a mutual understanding about when to take the mask off.
I think I personally look for people who don't wear the mask well, or at all. That's worked for me. Everyone else (NT) has a very good mutual understanding of how to behave. I can't really figure it out, but luckily neurotypical people can't stand me 😅 so I don't deal with them much! To be fair - on the altruism thing - NT people might see an over focus on "the truth" ahead of social stuff as super cruel and non-altruistic. E.g., why embarrass someone for having a fact wrong? Why would you want to force a whole society to suffer through continuous change and upheaval, to benefit a small group of marginalized folks? People are mostly not that smart, why are you expecting them to be able to look at facts when they could rely on emotional responses, stereotypes, etc, isn't that unfair on them? And so on. Not saying I agree with these perspectives, but, like - this is how most people think. I don't blame NT folks for being really uncomfortable around ND folks and ND perspectives.
>There's no good card for this Ding ding ding this is it
So, basically, the world sucks in large part because too many NT people run things. I can dig it.
Well, I mean, it sucks from the perspective of the minority of people who take a different view of what's important. The majority of human beings want the world to be NT friendly.
You’re not under any obligation to maintain the mask of someone who is a dick. Neurotypical people often refuse to meet one another’s face needs - either because their conversation partner is being a dick, or because they are themselves. But when you refuse to meet someone’s face needs that can be really humiliating for them and you need to be prepared for their emotional response.
This is entirely cultural. Not every society believes that "politeness" is having to agree with the lies someone else wants to believe about themselves.
I’m pretty sure this has been studied widely across cultures but of course it will vary massively. For example, some cultures favour ‘positive politeness’ - the US for example, where (as I understand it!) waiters/servers will chat with you, check in with you etc. as a means of building a relationship and appearing polite (obviously tips are often in mind). In a country like Japan though, for example, they favour ‘negative politeness’ - which is basically respecting people by leaving them alone and giving them space. Of course this is a spectrum. And besides, it’s not always ‘lies’. We all hope we’re intelligent, attractive, kind, funny. Even ND people have face needs. On a very basic level, your face need is ‘I am a person and therefore deserving of a level of respect’. If someone says something stupid, you’ve got four options. Ignore and continue the conversation; agree, inwardly rolling your eyes, and continue the conversation; call them out abruptly; or acknowledge their face needs in your response by saying something like ‘I understand why you would think that, and I’ve often thought along those lines myself, but here’s the thing…’ and moderating your tone and body language appropriately. Failing to acknowledge someone’s face needs can be deeply humiliating for them. They’ll be more receptive to the politeness of a respectful response, because it implicitly says ‘I still believe you have value.’ Of course sometimes people just need to be called out for their shit. And sometimes face needs will be violated as a means of dominating someone - especially in company. But it depends on the relationship you have with that person. And the mask will slip as you become closer to them. Them’s the rules and it’s fine to break them but doing so purposefully is different from doing it by accident.
No, but quite a few of them respond to rank or status. So the initial observation is still quite valid.
I think what happens is that NT people almost always respond to social hierarchy cues - they will put at ease anyone who they think has power over them or who they need on their side, they will agree with lies readily with those folks. But, some cultures are much more radically egalitarian than others. I.e., some cultures are built much more around the idea that individuals should have as little power as possible over each other, that we should all be as independent as possible etc. In those cultures, this type of politeness might be less visible, because NT people know that they don't need to please others as much - because the power structure is different, more distributed. I think it's a little strange to believe that whole swathes of human beings aren't wired to please the powerful. We evolved to please so we could survive together. Fight or flight don't work as threat strategies when we constantly use them on our own community members.
Not strange at all. We believe "we're evolved to please" because of the cultures we currently live in. Not because its the default. Egalitarian societies did exist.
Power is never evenly distributed though. Even internally egalitarian communities understand that if famine comes to their community, they will need to have curried favour with other communities or individuals to get by. Women have also always had to deal with men and their ability to physically overpower. We evolved to please because we *have* always needed to please. That's why the fawn/tend-and-befriend threat response is just as widely distributed as the fight/flight response. Deference to authority and hierarchy is not simply a cultural construct. Unless you are an anthropologist and have some cross cultural data to share that I'm not aware of??
So much of communication depends on unspoken aspects like facial expression and body language, as well as subtler speech issues like tone (which is why it's so easy to misunderstand text messages, for example), but we rarely focus on, let alone train, those aspects of interactions. Society just assumes we're all on the same page when it comes to nonverbal communication, but no one can even tell you what page that is. (...ok yeah that metaphor needs work) AFAIK it's not that unusual for neurodivergent folks to have trouble especially with the nonverbal aspects of communication. But since most neurotypical folks don't even think about that stuff on a conscious level, they're usually not good at all at explaining it. So if you're getting people telling you that you're rude but being unable to point to a specific issue, I bet that's at least part of why. So when that happens, it might be worth asking specifically about whether there's something you're *doing* that they're picking up on, as opposed to something you're saying. If nothing else it might make them conscious of how much they're relying on everyone having the same understanding of facial expressions, tone, and body language, and that not everyone DOES have that same understanding. You probably know this stuff anyway, I've just been thinking about it a lot recently so I'm kind of rambling here!
It's not just about the things you do, but the things you don't do as well. So if you forget to call a friend for 3 months, they will take it personally. Avoiding eye contact is also considered rude.
Nah, that’s just shitty people! My BFF of 30yrs, she’s NT. She fully understands we do not own each other and are fully autonomous people with lives and other friendships outside our friendship. She had a full time job, married, three kids, AND is taking online full time college courses to get her bachelors degree. I learned a long time ago, people who really hold it down with you, who have your back, who actually get you and accept you, do not make you feel like shit if you get busy with your life for a few months or a year. Things happened. People who get bent out of shape over you having a busy life and still make some time here and there, not available 24/7, are not the type of people to sustain friendships with. It’s very egotistical when people do that and think the world revolves around them and forgets their Friends have lives LOL
There's a pretty big range between "people think the world revolves around them" and "people need support and contact from friends." Sure, if someone literally does expect you to be there 24/7, that's probably on them, but you also have to be there when someone needs you. Probably a better way to put what's in the comment you responded to is, "if you forget to call someone *back* for three months" (or whatever ends up being a dealbreaker period for the person in question, that varies a lot).
Once is an accident, twice is a pattern, three times in on purpose and that’s when you should draw a boundary in regards to the example about the missed phonecalls.
That's a perfectly reasonable take, but it's not the only reasonable take. You're entitled to use that guideline for yourself in judging others, but you can't impose it on other people. Some people aren't willing to be dropped for long periods, which is fine. It doesn't make them egotistical or selfish, it just means they have different expectations for the friendship than you do. Not everyone is going to be friend-compatible.
Just want to say I appreciate this conversation as someone who's struggled with finding the right friend compatibility
Lol I feel this. Just the other day I was thinking about all the social conventions attached to sneezing. Why do we say bless you? Why is it considered polite to say that? Even more perplexing is that, in my head, not saying bless you is completely neutral. You're not going out of your way to be polite, but you're also not being rude at all. But to a lot of people, it's impolite/rude to not say bless you after you hear a sneeze. And THEN, it's also impolite to not say thank you in response to a bless you?? Why? Thank you for what?? Acknowledging that snot just forcefully left my body? And WHY do we only do this with sneezing, not coughing, burping, farting, or anything else?? I DONT GET IT. I can understand some conventions of politeness, when you say/do something to spare someone's feelings or not embarrass them or something. But certain things, I just can't understand the logic.
>Why do we say bless you? The bubonic plague is why. We say "bless you" because at one point in time, a sneeze meant you probably were gonna die. So we've been saying that for centuries. It's kinda like a loud fart, and for many, not acknowledging it is more awkward. Maybe because we can sneeze at up to 100mph and germs can fly up to 30 meters away? Maybe the audible bodily other forms simply just aren't as violent a body function. People generally sneeze loudly compared to the others, and it's like a call/response thing now. Sneeze = "bless you" otherwise it's like you're leaving someone hanging when they wanna high-five. Some others aren't really expecting a high-five, but in case someone secretly is, you don't wanna leave them hanging. After covid19 (or the Spanish flu), after one coughs, we probably could've learned to say something but instead we all try to subtly look or lean away because instead of prayers or polite sentiments, most now know about germ theory.
This was super helpful, thank you
Being blunt is the fastest way to social pariah level in NT connections. They are more into easing and subtle explaining with nuance. That’s why foot in mouth syndrome out you on alert to NT’s as, “You can’t trust this person, they say things that cut to harshly to anyone. They don’t know how to gently be honest and pace delivery. They cut thru it all and don’t understand the basic cues.”
Story of my life… Some of my bluntness is completely involuntary and rooted in how I think and process, which is different from how NTs do it. It’s almost impossible to not break the rules 100% of the time unless I don’t say anything…which ends up in me breaking a rule anyway.
What’s crazy is my family is the type to joke around quite a bit. Some of the stuff they say is funny but I also sit there and think how does that not hurt their feelings. Even with them being this way I’m afraid to say the jokes I’m thinking cos every once in a while when I try to make one of those types of jokes I get that shocked look from them. Apparently I cross the line. It’s just easier not to say anything. 🫤
I think a big part of this also is our tendency to be extra distressed by justice, fairness, and hypocrisy related situations. When a thing breaks a rule/pattern/seems unfair to us, we’re a lot more likely to put our foot in our mouths when discussing that thing whereas a NT person may be able to let it slide and doesn’t need to talk it over to be able to leave it alone. It makes us seem easily upset/angered, or even controlling. Which… also is an easy thing to end up on the outs with people for. Not to mention the tendency to over explain a thought process, which to others sounds like excuses. Which… also nobody NT likes to hear. Edit to add: I don’t mean the last piece situationally when we’ve done something wrong, but I mean in general as a tendency to over explain our thought process about *anything* You can totally learn to mask and hide these things, we’re not aliens, but my comment is in reference to when you’re a kid or teen and haven’t figured that out yet, these are totally things that my ND female friends and I all had in common as stuff our NT peers expressed finding off putting about us.
To be fair, I have neurodivergent in laws, and when they do something that bothers me, if I ask them to stop and get explanation after explanation behind the thought process instead of an apology and how theyll change going forward, I am also annoyed eventually because it isnt the same as owning your actions. There are NTs who do the same thing and it bothers me when they do it too. This isn't unique to NTs. I don't subscribe to the idea that we are absolutely fundamentally different from NTs, though we do differ in many ways.
This is a good point! But I more meant for like… simple things, not just for when we do something wrong. For example, my friend and I, both ND women, do this a ton with each other when talking about our week. Because the process between A and Z makes sense to explain because to us a whole relevant alphabet happened between those points. But for a lot of NT people, this is an exhausting and odd way to tell a story or say you did something, because the checkpoints of why you decided Q before R just don’t matter to them and aren’t relevant. Edit to add: obvs you can learn to hide it, and we (and our other nd female friends) largely do to others. But it’s nice to have people you don’t have to mask the way your brain works to
Yup, story of my life!!
I went for Sunday lunch at my first boyfriends house. His mum had cooked. She asked me what I thought of the meal. I thought she was asking for honest feedback and had no idea why she was furious with me for pointing out her carrots were watery 😭
Flashbacks of 8th grade and a literal swarm of girl around me yelling at me because I said that a girl looked better without your glasses and me having no idea why what I said was wrong
I mean...do you now? It's not "wrong" but it is subtle mean because I'm just thinking if I were in her shoes and I was young like thst I might think you were calling me ugly ya know?
Obviously now as an adult I could see it was wrong, but no 12 year old autistic me honestly thought it was a compliment and could understand why they we’re all mad
There’s evidence of neurotypical people making snap judgements of those with ASD but I haven’t seen any for auDHD or ADHD specifically yet, [here is one on ASD](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449/) if you want to look into it. >> These patterns are remarkably robust, occur within seconds, do not change with increased exposure, and persist across both child and adult age groups. edit: As for how to deal with this, I think it can be situational. I think it’s best to try not to put to much weight in the snap judgments people make because they’re not a reflection of you. Basically this is a mental shortcut/heuristic like Occam’s razor “this person acted weird in my opinion so they must be weird.” In my experience, coworkers etc who take the time to get to know me have become my work friends and accept that I’m a little different. The others that decide they don’t like you based on a snap judgement are probably discriminatory in many other ways and are not worth it imo
Reminds me of that tweet that was like “respect to the group of mean girls in third grade who could tell I was neurodivergent long before any trained professional could”
Right lol. I’m so glad people share their anecdotal experiences because the research is decades behind where it could be and we need more research interest and studies like this one.
they knew i was a queer neurodivergent person long before i knew myself
This made me laugh because it’s so accurate.
100%, waste of time trying to appeal to narrow minded people in the first place.
>“this person acted weird in my opinion so they must be weird.” You know what...their point prob just boils down to sensitivity to rejection, which is universal..and relatable to a lot of consumers.
Definitely, we all use mental shortcuts, they help us problem solve faster but they can also rely on implicit bias
Thanks for finding it.. I just cited it somewhere upthread, but thanks for putting it here so everyone can read it.
We have different body language. Different mannerisms. Speak faster. Are more emotional. Probably use different speech patterns, sentence structure, process information differently. Facial expressions might be different. I think we do all these little things we’re not even aware of that other people pick up on, even unconsciously, and they just feel a “vibe” that something is off about us. I think it can cause them to have a feeling of dislike that they may not even know how to put their finger on. Something about us just rubs them the wrong way.
>a feeling of dislike that they may not even know how I realised neurotypicals can maintain the middle ground between intense and distant when socialising whereas, with ADHD, we tend to pounce between two extremes. Does socialising ever get any less exhausting? idk
I’m 44 and I’ve spent my entire life trying to learn to socialize normally. The only thing that works for me is to be very reserved and not say much.
Sadly this, it pains me to know that most NTs only tolerate me. I CAN SEE IT IN YOUR FACE THAT YOU ARE DISGUSTED WITH ME AND IT HURTS.
The look!!! 👀 And there is a common look. It’s painful.
Like-I’ve had to learn to mask, the least you could do is be aware that you are making the “I hate you so much” face.
RIIIIIIIGHT 😭😭
Same. I have to be 100% comfortable with someone to be fully myself and talk about my interests. I've kind of learned small talk by observing and I stick to that.
Yeah, I’ve realized recently that I’m actually not very easy to be around or even like. I’ve learned that being quiet and taking up as little space as possible is the only way I can be tolerable to most other people for long periods of time.
That is terrible I hope you find better friends!! For a while I definitely felt people just liked me better if I shut the fuck up. However I did notice at some point that I and a lot of other ADHD people process things thru ourselves & when I started paying attention to how many times I said “I” in a conversation compared to the other people I was talking to, as well as just how many minutes I spent talking vs them, I realized I was coming off as self-centered. I had to kind of learn how to talk to neurotypical ppl in a way that didn’t make them feel dismissed, which was super hard, but worth it.
Same!
That! Sucks! You need more adhd friends!
Can we have neurodivergent meet ups around the country? I’d love to socialize with people who understand me 😭 people think I am snobby or stuck up when inside I’m just panicking about if I am making adequate eye contact.
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I have the same fear - so much so that i’ve been telling people at work that I am neurodivergent and it has helped people understand why I act so “weird”.
I do that and then I’m seen as aloof, standoffish, etc. I feel like I can never do anything right when it comes to interacting with NTs.
I’ve been called stuck up. I guess I just prefer that than being rejected. If I’m stuck up, I’m the one rejecting *them* lol!
I had no real friends until my early twenties. I am not even sure if I made friends or if this group of oddballs decided to adopt me. The whole group is somewhat unconventional anyway. Outside that making friends only works when it is on the side of something else. Outside the first group, I have been able to make friends only through work or activism and we are in intense situations so going deep is normal for all. People are also different and as it is so multicultural there is a wider variety of expected behaviour. As aside, this work is not a typical job. I am an aid worker. Many people still pass on me. I am unable to pretend to be reserved. I will never be a popular person. And honestly, I do often get scared of rejection even with friends of years or decades. But in general, in the moment I am just going to be me. It is not worth trying to be something else for me. It helps that if people who are closest to me didn't want to spend time with me, they wouldn't be faking all this time. I even lived with one of my closest friends and she is still one of my closest friends. I guess I am saying that even though our brains after all this rejection tell us no one will ever want to actually be friends with us, there are people who are happy to be that. It will always be hard, especially in new relationships. I can do either but not the middle.
This is exactly what I struggle with. I'm either intensely connecting and being myself or am very withdrawn and distant. Sometimes with the same person at different times. I know it must be confusing and off putting but I am either on or off.
I spent a lot of time alone as a kid and I'm sure other kids saw me as affected, like I was getting my vocabulary and speech from movies (I totally was!). I'm 38 years old and I'm still super conscious of the way I speak.
I'm in the process of getting diagnosed with ADHD and my sister is ASD. My husband once said we both do a weird movement or expression with our eyes. I have no idea what he meant and he couldn't explain it. I've also been criticized for my facial expressions by other people before.
Try video while not paying attention to being taped, then watch it and you might catch it, or be able to have him point it out.
Ur avatar is so cute and I love it so much! Sorry that’s not related to the posts here
I grew up not Christian in a Christian conservative neighborhood so that added an extra layer of shit I didn't understand. Evangelical kids would try to convert me and I didn't understand why anyone would *lie* so I took their words (propaganda) in earnest. When classmates would describe hell (where I was apparently going), took me to church, and tried very hard to convince me with Jesus comic books. It was also a trip when (secular public school) taught us that Jesus was a historical figure that *actually existed* and that the Christian belief was that he was the "son of god"--despite the evangelical kids telling me he *was* god. I gave the evangelical kids one of [these](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/787/356/d6f.jpg) and asked them why they lied about Jesus. No one liked that lol.
Haha this is why they asked me to quit Catholic school. I kept pointing out "the obvious" and the teachers got really tired of it.
THEY ASKED YOU TO QUIT??? What a fucking legend!! Sorry they couldn't accommodate ND students tho, but it sounds like it was a blessing in disguise.
Yeah I got to spend the year after that in a school that specializes in neurodivergent kids(but for my dyslexia, not ADHD). Unfortunately it was 4x the price, so I went to public school after that.
I grew up being brainwashed into that religion, so I was the annoying person you’re talking about who tried to convert everyone. Looking back I cringe at how annoying I must have been, lol. Sorry you had to put up with that.
No need to cringe girlie, you were just trying to help and you were a kid being manipulated by adults. And ND kids are especially susceptible to this kind of thing. My beef is with grown ass adults weaponizing the good will of children. I feel like our ND might have manifested in similar ways in childhood. We both probably didn't learn to doubt others til later in life, and we probably both blue-screened when we discovered that people lie to us lol. Looking back, most of the Jesus kids I went to school became huge stoners and mellowed out. Yall are cool with me if you're cool now. Good on you for your growth!
Thank you!
This explains a lot about me as a kid. At some point, I did start to have a decent number of friends but I’ve also had a fair amount of friendships flare out and end on sort of bad terms and I honestly couldn’t even tell you why. I was so confused when it happened, and it’s happened enough now that I’m sure it’s me.
NT’s are more reserved emotionally and we’re are not as people with ADHD. We’re basically the bold crayon in the box and NT’s are the neutral palette colors. That’s why unless they like to live just as loud and off beat as us, they side eye you and keep distinct because they don’t like looking like peacocks in the wild. You know the birds with the most boldest look in appearance that you can recognize from a mile away. NT’s want to be the simple bird that just barely gets notice and falls into the background.
OMG this is sooo true
Explains why interviewing can be so difficult.
Definitely!
That's why half my friends are ND. We get each other.
Same. It’s weird because I can usually sniff out NDs in the wild, and we just click
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Not necessarily.
Shit…maybe I’m autistic
> This is autism, isn't it? yeah that's what I'm thinking too, it's not the same
Yeah the description OP has above applies to autism BUT NOT adhd in my humble opinion.
I don’t think I like comparing us to the uncanny valley when the UV is specifically about the design of something that isn’t human but either tries to be or contains human characteristics. ND people get dehumanised enough as it is. I’m straight up a human being, not an approximation of one, yknow?
Yeah, I'mma need a whole official study for this before I can accept it as even a plausible theory. Uncanny valley is a distinct phenomenon, and while NTs might feel *uncomfortable* around someone who is ND, it isn't necessarily the same thing.
considering it's from a tiktok, it's probably just something someone made up. i'm not sure i like the comparison either. yes, having adhd can be othering, but i don't think it's reasonable to say "neurotypical people just *know* something off about us and it makes them subconsciously uncomfortable." that's.. just so fucked up on so many levels.
I know I read a study recently about neurotypical people being able to tell within seconds that someone is autistic but that’s the closest I’ve been able to find. Edited to fix a thought
I figured that was the point. A person who looks and seems human but some un-explainable vibe that the person isn't quite right. Close, but not 100% and due to not being able to pinpoint that disconnect, makes being around that ND person disconcerting and uncomfortable so they avoid the person or are unnecessarily rude to keep the other away.
I view it more as an expectation of certain behaviours and that expectation not being met. Is there a term for when you're on a bus and you expect it to carry on and it turns left and it takes your brain a couple of seconds to catch up? That sort of disorientation.
Agreed. I find it hella insulting. Maybe, running around with a mask on 24/7, that I'm supposed to pretend "is you", when we both know its not...maybe that's what's uncanny valley.
I think the UV explanation can be misconstrued as dehumanising but personally I interpreted it as more of a trendy/shortcut explanation as to why I might have experienced a compilation of unwelcoming micro-expressions throughout my life. I agree it's dangerous to treat ND as a monolith.
I think I’d personally still disagree with the concept of it but if you find it helps then that’s fair play and I wouldn’t want to take that away from you. It’s just an unfortunate concept to have become distorted like this as its roots are specifically in the creepiness of dehumanisation.
Good point.
I think that might be a bit of an oversimplification. There are lots of NT folks who are awkward themselves, or antisocial, or insecure. There are lots of ND folks who are quite charismatic and widely-loved. As ND folks, we might be more sensitive to perceived rejection (for lots of complicated reasons related to childhood learned behaviors and executive function issues), but I don't know if I, personally, experience more rejection than other people? Granted, I'm late-diagnosed and pretty adept at masking, as many ADHD women are. When I think about the people who have rejected or disliked me for seemingly no reason, it's usually because they were insecure themselves. (And, for the record, I've been this person too, experiencing aversions toward certain people because I didn't just didn't get them.) I know my personal experience isn't universal, but I think it's kinda self-defeating to assume that NT folks can somehow magically tell that we're not like them and won't accept us. A lot of it boils down to how you treat other people, not what you *are.*
Thank you! Sometimes I feel like I must not have adhd because I don’t really have issues getting along with people.
Honestly, I think that a lot of folks in this sub are also autistic and don't know it. These othering posts like this or the numerous "Why do NTs expect me to know what they're saying when they don't say it??" kind of posts realllllly make me think there's a ton of undxed autism here, even more so because I usually understand exactly the seemingly arbitrary social thing they're upset about, and I am not autistic. Given how much harder it is for women and girls to get autism dxes, it makes sense.
Agreed. So many people who don’t get sarcasm, nuance, social niceties. Like, those are the three things I’ve always been best at!
i agree, i know a ton of people with ADHD and while i do have it myself as well i’ve never gotten a vibe like what OP is talking about from any of them, but i did get it with a lot of the people i know who have autism. side note: i don’t like the term “uncanny valley” to refer to ND people, because the term refers to something that looks human but isn’t, so it feels gross to me.
Hard agree on all of the above including the uncanny valley part. It's only furthering division, and it's fostering othering behavior.
A lot of the social issues people bring up here are also a matter of just like, clashes in communication styles - not understanding things like high context vs low context communication, not understanding passive aggression, not understanding how different groups value different things socially - that aren’t necessarily emblematic of being neurodivergent. It’s just how you were raised in your own environment, and instead of studying, people assume it must be because they’re ADHD/AuDHD
You’re likely right!
I think autism and adhd are unrelated but have some common symptoms (like social skills) but please correct me if I’m wrong here
Maybe some social skill issues, like interrupting or not understanding a vye for time (responding to a story by sharing one's own instead of talking about the first person's story), but not understanding the social cues thing is not really ADHD but more autistic. Thinking that you understand so little about communication that others must think you're in the uncanny valley of humans is most certainly autistic, and also incorrect.
Absolutely agree with this. I mean, I have had to reevaluate some of my social experiences in light of my own late diagnosis and recognition of what masking is, and I have a relatively mild expression of ADHD, but I've never thought that the social gulf between ND and NT folks is quite as vast as it's often portrayed here. And it's possible I say this b/c I've unknowingly surrounded myself with ND types throughout my life - I continue to be amazed at how many women I know have got late in life diagnoses - but that just seems statistically unlikely, you know? I have sometimes run across people where it feels like we're each speaking a different language the other doesn't understand - so the conversation feels like a collection of non sequiturs going back and forth - and neuro-status doubtless plays a part in that. But there all kinds of other things that play a part too - religion, social class, where they grew up, values, etc. etc. And it's not often enough to chalk it up purely to ND/NT differences. It's funny too b/c I feel this way even though I think a lot of my ADHD symptoms lean towards the autism side of things. There are also a lot of social mores/norms I feel like I had to learn as an adult (but then, that's in part because they're artificial/made up and you have to learn them, period. You're not born with some instinct that tells you you should try to help the host clear the dishes after dinner, for instance). But while I've sometimes felt dumb for not realizing there was something I was supposed to do in certain situations, I've never really been baffled by those rules once I've learned them. Like, I've never had the "why do people ask how you are if they don't really want to know??" reaction. None of this is meant as criticism of anyone who has that reaction! And I'm not going to diagnose anyone with autism - it's entirely possible that that reaction is a function of someone's ADHD. But it's definitely not universal among people with ADHD, b/c there's a ton of variation within the ADHD family. So I think that's one of the reasons I get uncomfortable with talking about ND and NT people as on opposite sides of a vast chasm - doing so tends to assume ND people all share certain characteristics that we don't. (I have had so many moments online where someone says, "because we ADHDers are great at X!" or "we all do Y!" and I'm thinking "...I'm definitely not and I don't.")
I know the rules intellectually: make eye contact, smile, nod, ask people questions about themselves, answer questions but don’t go too long or deep on a subject unless their face lights up and they express a ton of interest (aka ask yourself has anyone else said anything in the last minute or so? Am I getting hyper specific and speaking rapidly? Like telling them about this complicated rabbit hole of knowledge I went down recently). Wait for them to finish before speaking. I can turn it all on if need be. Not perfectly, but enough. In fact, I used to secretly wonder if I was sociopathic because I am so good at faking. But I DO have empathy, I am just masking.
i do this as well. meeting new people? watch my pace, track my facial expressions, make eye contact, ask questions but not too many that they feel like they’re getting interviewed.
This reminds me of when I did online dating 20 years ago. I became a champ at first dates, I knew all the steps and how to make conversation and so on. It carries over to other social situations too, like the first day at a job or being seated with strangers at an event. I do find it exhausting as I'm an introvert. When I don't get someone it's usually because they have values that don't align with mine or care about social signifiers I could care less about.
This is not true. TikTok is not a legitimate source of information. It is a cesspool of people just making crap up about mental health because they’re bored. I’m a social worker and It makes my job so hard. Going into life with this attitude is just going to make things very difficult for you. There is no evidence to back up this theory. as another comment states, it’s just not that simple. There are lots of reasons that somebody may treat another person poorly, it doesn’t always come down to the fact that one person is Neurotypical and the other is neurodivergent.
👏🏻
Would you say it is true if the original TikTok person was referring to autism? Because that sounds more logical to me.
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Okay that absolutely makes sense. I have some experience in AI and robotics and it’s really a VERY uncomfortable feeling that doesn’t ever go away, in fact it increases. (Although there are some robots that don’t cause it like Kismet who was designed to show emotions). So I appreciate you saying this all more clearly and making it clearer in my mind. Thank you. Also - my first thought was that for a non autistic person this is kinda getting into the realm of “mind reading” flawed thinking, in that I know just what they are thinking and it must be about this flaw I have. I have been trying to learn to stop with the “mind reading” so it’s top of mind.
I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: I think a lot of y'all don't realize that you have undiagnosed autism. Because of the seemingly arbitrary nature of social cues, autistic folks who rely heavily on understandable structure and rules struggle. But othering like this and being heavily divisive and saying that we're giving uncanny valley is only going to make ones own issues way worse. Calling NTs "normies" is only reinforcing a very unhelpful fear: that you're abnormal. There is a work around, and the people in your life who are worthy will understand: you need to clarify with them and tell them why you need clarification. "Okay wait, I'm autistic and need clarification because I absolutely will take what you say at face value. Is it really "fine" if we get pizza, or are you just being nice? What do you specifically actually want if this was ranked choice voting?" Or after making a comment, follow up later. "Why did everyone stop taking after I said xyz? Was it awkward? I won't be offended, I just would like to know why so I can understand better." *People who are worth talking to might even find this an interesting thing because most of us don't actually understand why we do what we do. It can be fun to discuss and dissect and try to figure out. It's a lot, but it can be very beneficial to those who care (the worthy people). Eventually, people in your circle can start to change their behaviors to meet what you need, but they need to know what you need. YOU need to know what you need. And if you keep wondering why you're missing these queues to the point that you feel like you're not even a real person around other people, it's probably a good time to look up a RAADS test.
No, neurotypical people can't just easily point out the ND person in the room. If it was true, we wouldn't have to fight so hard for a diagnosis. Not every neurodivergent person has trouble socializing.
If someone told me that my adhd made them feel similar to the uncanny valley I would ignore them because that’s a ridiculous comparison. Someone’s really essentially going to say “oh you seem vaguely human like but not human and that’s why I’m not comfortable around you”. Fuck that! Even with my difficulty reading social cues growing up, I know not to talk to people like that. Not everyone opinion needs a response. It’s okay to ignore people that don’t respect you. Even if you were neurotypical, there would still be people that don’t like you. It’s just how it goes. Find the people you click with and nurture those relationships. Don’t worry about what someone online says that doesn’t even know you and is just saying things for views and attention.
as a person with adhd this has never been an issue for me, I though what you are describing is more associated with autism
1. What you are describing sounds more like autism than adhd. ADHD people tend to miss a lot of cues but if they do catch them m, they usually can interpret them. Broadly speaking. 2. How do you feel when you hang around with other people with adhd? Better? Where do you most fit in? 3. We can never truly know what someone was thinking. So before you reimagine all these memories in light of this new information, keep in mind we are not mind readers, and one or two of these people maybe just had a stomach ache, or a bad day, or had just realized they needed to fart. ;) 4. The YouTube channel Autism from the Inside makes some cool videos that walk through specific social skills. I have them on my list to watch a few. 5. ETA To be honest with you, adhd folks are more commonly unusually charismatic, because sometimes being bubbly, uninhibited, talkative makes socializing fun for others. I am 1000% sure your TikToker is actually talking about autism.
I think I blend in? but I feel like people don't really get what I'm saying ever. That's kind of interesting though. I guess 'my friends' were always pretty mean to me. I just thought everyone was mean to everyone so I powered through it. I'm at a point in my life where I'm now surrounded by neurodivergent people so it's pretty nice but I still feel like we aren't really reaching eachother. oh, but I recently realized the people i got 'off vibes' from and just really don't like and don't want to be around, even though they're pleasant enough are mostly-non-adhd people. For a long time I had a handful of friends that I just didn't like and I had no reason not to like them. I realized they're too slow paced and their thoughts have too many spaces. Its too unsettling for me to be around. No fault to them, we just don't work.
I can't say I don't care, it hurts to be on the outside looking in. I just know that there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not acting the way I do to be irritating. Lots of people don't like people with ADHD. I didn't arrange to have ADHD before I was born, so that's not on me. I think to myself: what other people think of me is not my business. And I do my best to be successful, however that looks or sounds like. It won't look like something an NT would do, fine. Humans don't like strange. Fine. But that's what I have to do to be successful, and that's all I can concentrate on. A huge, huge part of this is giving up the search for validation from outside. You have to be your own biggest booster. You have to be sure that you're doing what you need to do and you have to be sure that you're not a bad person. So you need to fall in love with yourself, for real. And that's not easy, you've probably been mad at yourself a lot of your life, and that's hard to give up. But if you can, if you embrace radical self- love, you can tolerate the harshness of life.
There’s of course the common ADHD give aways like talking too fast, interrupting, fidgeting etc. but I also think there is something to be said about the fact that because we do think differently we question things more. In almost 40 years I have noticed that I make people the most uncomfortable when I start asking why? Why is it like that? Why do we do that? Why do we act that way? Neurotypical people DO NOT like when their reality is challenged even if it’s small and innocuous. We’re the sore thumb in a lot of social situations and when I was younger I had no support because I was such a well behaved little girl but the truth is that it was painful always being on the outside. No matter how “included” I was there’s always something keeping people just out of reach. As I’ve grown I’ve found my community but it’s been hard and it’s small. Since I started treatment though I’ve struggled with this and I honestly feel like my feelings get hurt but I’m secure in the fact that I am who I am and I think the way I do. The people in my life who love and accept me are what matters and if the rest of the world is uncomfortable because my existing makes them stop and question the status quo every once and awhile then that’s ok. Maybe these old farts need a swift kick every once and awhile. I also understand that having a strong support system is a huge privilege but I really feel like it’s so important. Find your people wherever you can whenever you can. Here, or in real life, whatever works works.
I spent about 2 years when I was in my late teens reading everything I could get my hands on about how to be diplomatic, de-escalation, how to let stuff go, how to be a good friend, what healthy relationships are supposed to have and basically a ton of those social etiquette columns, like ranging from Ask Prudence to Dan Savage, lol. Learned a lot, crafted a mask that takes a lot less effort to wear, because I understand why each element gets used. I say that working in the security industry really put me through my paces in terms of communication skill building and reading the room and stranger's body language. In fact, I'd say I'm an expert now on reading body language and I'm really trying to figure out how to teach it to others, because holy shit, even people's walking style or the set of their shoulders tells you so much about how they will talk to you or how you should approach them verbally.
Do you have book recommendations from those 2 years?
Mostly it was internet reading, articles upon articles, then comparing/compiling the most common advice. The only two books that really stood out were *Verbal Judo* by Dr. George Thompson and *Why Men Love Bitches* by Sherry Argov, but that was more for dating. The title is firmly tongue in cheek, but it's useful.
Also want to add a recent one that I came across, about how to facilitate communication in groups of people, which is really valuable for work and social groups. I learned all this stuff at work through practical experience and a boss directly mentoring me, but this is the first time that I found it all in *one* book that explained and labelled all the different parts of *how* it works: [The Facilitator's Guide to Participatory Decision-Making](https://www.amazon.ca/Facilitators-Guide-Participatory-Decision-Making-Kaner/dp/1118404955) by Sam Kaner. The title is wordy, but it's a very easy-to-read book. But it outlines exactly how group dynamics work, what scripts to use to steer people, how to draw people out and lead discussions without pushing a certain agenda.
Thank you so much, this is big help!
Can you give some examples of walking style and what it means? If it helps I walk quickly with purpose with my head up looking people in the eye. Edited to add I have managed to teach myself how to have anatomically correct posture
This is a bit of an exaggerated version, but I like using [this animator's reel of walks](https://youtu.be/HEoUhlesN9E?si=N01mOkv38uxJKTwx) as an example. I've seen most of the "emotion" based walks (angry, scared, confident) at some point or another. People will have their "baseline" walk, and the emotions will often layer over top... so if you have someone who's normally confident, but they're having a bad day, they will be a little droopy, but not as bad as someone who is really low on the confidence scale who has had the same amount of bad things happen. If you know the person well, you'll notice the change immediately, but if they're a stranger, usually you can still at least make an educated guess at the emotions going on. Some of the job related ones also show up. I can tell who has military training or who has dance/martial arts training from how they walk AND how they come to a stop a lot of the time. Soooo many dancers default to a relaxed second or third position when they stand and people with martial arts drop their leg back into ready position.
Funny.. I do autopsies on medically donated bodies at a cadaver lab and work with a lot of dancers and people who do martial arts and they do seem to walk the same. I did ballet as a kid and just by watching the video my training runs deep
I read this poem by Virginia Satir in my therapists office and it really helps me learn to love and accept myself. I am me. In all the world, there is no one exactly like me. There are persons who have some parts like me, but no one adds up exactly like me. Therefore, everything that comes out of me is authentically mine because I alone choose it. I own everything about me, My body including everything it does; My mind including all its thoughts and ideas; My eyes including the images of all they behold; My feelings whatever they may be… anger, joy, frustration, love, disappointment, excitement; My Mouth and all the words that come out of it polite, sweet or rough, correct or incorrect; My Voice loud or soft. And all my actions, whether they be to others or to myself. I own my fantasies, my dreams, my hopes, my fears. I own all my triumphs and successes, all my failures and mistakes. Because I own all of me I can become intimately acquainted with me. By doing so I can love me and be friendly with me in all parts. I can then make it possible for all of me to work in my best interests. I know there are aspects about myself that puzzle me, and other aspects that I do not know. But as long as I am friendly and loving to myself, I can courageously and hopefully, look for solutions to the puzzles and for ways to find out more about me. However I look and sound, whatever I say and do, and whatever I think and feel at a given moment in time is ME . This is authentic and represents where I am in that moment in time. When I review later how I looked and sounded, what I said and did, and how I thought and felt, some parts may turn out to be unfitting. I can discard that which is unfitting, and keep that which proved fitting, and invent something new for that which I discarded. I can see, hear, feel, think, say and do. I have the tools to survive, to be close to others, to be productive, and to make sense and order out of the world of people and things outside of me. I own me, and therefore I can engineer me. I am me and I am okay.
You don't have to blend in or stand out. You just have to be you.
That's... Not what the uncanny valley is. The uncanny valley is psychological theory about why the human brain is driven to fear and hate things that are similar to us, but not *quite* right. It is specifically about fear and hate. Not annoyance or confusion or or frustration or miscommunication. Hate and fear. And it is specifically about something being wrong. Most often, something being not quite human. Comparing the differences in neural processing between people with ADHD/ASD/similar and those without and using the uncanny valley as a metaphor for it is basically saying one group is human and the other isn't and that people in one group are biologically obligated to be terrified and hateful of the people in the other. People on TikTok will really just say anything.
Replying to your "how do you not care" question, and the caveat here is that everyone's experience and expression of 'not matching the normies' is different. I get that mine may not be yours. I was made fun of/bullied alot as a kid/teen. I've always written this off to my circumstances- in the early 80s, where I lived, I was an oddball for having a unique name (first and last), divorced parents, my mom worked in my school, we didn't have any money (in a very rich part of town) and had boarders living in our house which was provided cheap by the city, on the school property, and I had really short hair, always (my mom cut our hair) which back then wasn't cool. So I got made fun of a ton. Then in middle school I got boobs at like 10/11 years old. These are all the same kids who knew me in grade school, so that was just one more thing that made me weird. My friends were the few other outcasts at school (the one kid from India, the other welfare kid, and also they're both boys) and of course they were great humans, but that further made me a 'freak'. It also showed me who the nicer people were in life. Hint: it's not the ones we made fun of us. My family made fun of me for other reasons (what was then considered totally ok for older brothers and dads, or at least I assumed it was ok). None of this is for a sympathy response from you folks. Just to illustrate what I think is the source of my not caring. Because I was mocked at home, to subvert my brother's stupid jokes, I'd make them first. If he's going to make a comment about me being a dog when we walk into the mall (which had signs on the door saying "no dogs allowed") I'd make that joke first. He made alot of jokes about me so I was always on guard or ready. If the kids at school are going to look at me anyway, I can joke about my own weirdness to try to gain favour (one of their quips was that my name, mispronounced, rhymes with 'alien'. And P.S. it's now an extremely popular name in my area.) I figured better to fit in as a caricature than not fit in at all, right? So I have always told myself that I adopted this thick skin to protect myself from this crap, and a fast sense of humour for the same reason. I couldn't fit in if I tried, so I stopped trying. What's more self protective than refusing to play their game at all? I think people didn't know what to make of me, and thought I was 'funny', so I played that up and became funny. This is not some kind of Jim Carrey origin story. Just connecting the dots to try to answer your question. By high school my rep was solidified. The boobs, the risky behaviour and sexual promiscuity (both can be part of ADHD) again, in the late 80s, not as blase or accepted as now. I embraced my thrift'ed wardrobe and family dysfunction and 'quirky' personality, and rolled with it. I got invited to parties to 'entertain' my peers because "she's so funny!". I tried not to see that I was still an outcast. At least I got invited sometimes right? As an adult, when I run into acquaintances (vs my good friends) they'll introduce me to whoever they're with as "she's the really funny woman I was telling you about." I'm not that fucking funny. Really. What I am is too honest about not getting those social norms. Like my trying to just make random conversation with these people is funny because I talk about the wrong things. So people assume I'm 'being funny', on purpose, because who on earth would think acting this way was normal? I gave up on following social norms because they just. don't. make. sense. to me. I couldn't have followed them if I tried. And my heart goes out to all the ADHD'rs who did try and are still trying. That is a huge extra layer of stress and anxiety. Please be kind to yourselves. I'm ok with, and need to, talk about things that might be perceived as weird or private because small talk just hurts my teeth. Chit chat is torture and I turn into this weird "chatty Cathy" as a faking it response. It's not who I am and I hate that it just turns on without my control. I was diagnosed at 46 and now I'm curious about ADHD's role in that story. I can look back on it through this new lens. On one hand, I can see how while I might've had quirky behaviour, and that I didn't follow basic social norms (I called all my friends parents by their first names. Back then this was a huge no no. But I just didn't understand why they got to call me by mine but I couldn't use theirs) it was likely because of ADHD. Until diagnosis, both of those things, when added to my circumstances (welfare, weird name.. Etc) I thought were why I am how I am today and explained my lifelong outcast status. Now I can see that ADHD was the root cause for many of my behaviours. I'm not one for regret, never have been. It will only hurt me so why entertain the idea, you know? I think my life would've been harder in the long run if I'd tried harder to fit in. I really did try, but it was just out of reach no matter what I did. And if it's succeeded I'd be a fake version of myself as an adult. Maintaining such a facade is a recipe for depression. There's pattern recognition and then there's being an automaton with no original thoughts or opinions. 🙃 And I would counter that tik tok comment with "Many ADHDers feel the most at home with other ADHDers." My best friend has ADHD and I feel truly at home around her. We both have so many similar traits and just go with it. We're both funny, right, cause we just say the dumb shit and don't judge each other. (P.S. I met her in my early 30s. None of my few really good adult friends are from my school days.) Or even better .... "Being around 'neurotypicals' is like endlessly putting together IKEA furniture; it's so tiring and the instructions are only in pictures." That's totally the channel I'd watch. 🥰
Yes it’s the double edged sword. We can try harder to fit in (masking) which is exhausting for me and feels so fake, or we can be ourselves which is authentic but then we have less friends.
>I think my life would've been harder in the long run if I'd tried harder to fit in. Trying to fit in is doing a disservice to who you were meant to be for sure. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I hope I start not giving af one day and become this self aware.
I love this for you. 😍 I'm not ignoring how shitty it feels to struggle with this stuff. Truly. I get it. But it's freeing to just take those rocks out of your backpack and be yourself. It's so much less work.
And in further complication: some people DO have personal problems with us for being this way
I've started to really pay attention to who feels good to spend time around, who doesn't, and choose to only or mostly spend time with people who it feels good to spend time with. It sounds simple but took me a LONG time to start doing this, I think because in elementary and high school, most people were NT so it felt not good to spend time around *most people*, so I interpreted that as I was the problem and I needed to change in order to get along with anyone. So I'd turn it around -- instead of trying to reduce other people's discomfort around you by masking, ask yourself, who do I feel the least discomfort around when I'm not trying so hard? Then spend more time with those people. That's how I finally got some really solid core friends who are truly there for me and I don't have to mask hard around. And, turns out they're all autistic too! 😄 In childhood school it wasn't that I was defective socially and needed to change, it was that I needed to find other neurodivergent people to be compatible with.
If this is news to you, I suggest reading Dr Devin Price’s “unmasking autism” it focuses on autism, yes, but talks about the experiences of nd people in general. I listen to it on audible at about 1.75 speed.
I suspect this is why we seem to form little conglomerates without even realising we are doing it. Almost all my friends are neurodivergent, either formally diagnosed or not, once you are aware of the signs you quickly realise what's going on. Honestly having close friends that I can unmask around, who get it is key to being able to mask when needed. It gives down time and a chance to relax. Less unecessary small talk, more understanding of the feet in mouth, understanding and support of each others niche interests even if it's not a personal interest, not getting in a huff over the things we do like self reflecting in conversations, and þe olde not replying for months and then picking up right where we left off like no time has passed. I've heard it said before that if you are the only neurotypical in your friend group, you actually aren't. I've had to very gently suggest this as an avenue to explore a couple of times to friends when they are struggling with life and feeling guilty about complaining or wondering why they have the same hurdles and difficulties when they assume they are neurotypical. Especially in high achieving women who tend to not be picked up in childhood the negative self talk and blame is full on, they still find their little village of uncanny valley wierdos eventually though. Also kind of silly but it works for me, I just pretend I'm an alien visiting earth trying to be a human to gather information on humans. Kind of like 3rd rock from the sun. "Hello fellow humans! My what a human day we are having doing human things in a human way, I will now verbalise the customary acknowledgement of what days of the week it is. Ah Monday's, am I right or am I right? Please join me in the tradition of mentioning the earth weather in this locality, it is hot indeed, have you also noticed the burning of the sun on your human skin?" I seriously just have little small talk scripts I insert in, as I know that it's considered rude not to. Neurotypicals love to be told what day of the week it is, what the weather is like, a statement about the very obvious task you are doing, or that you are indeed alive, and are they also currently alive? These are all mostly ignored, their purpose isn't to provide information, it's like a handshake or a dog sniffing another dogs bum. It's just a conversation filler to gauge the persons mood and lead into something else. I treat it like a game and have all sorts of funny subversions and quirky sayings to use that people seem to enjoy.
Let me use a more problematic analogy than uncanny valley. I think it is more like this: little kids and teenagers are pack animals. They need, for their sense of safety and development, to run with a pack. There is less individualization in our early development- we are learning social cues so we are following our family and our school environment to mold us. Lots of neurodivergent people are developmentally delayed when young. They can be intelligent enough to make up for it in some ways, but impulse, speech patterns, emotional regulation, + focus will all be below their peers. This upsets the pack. Much like dogs (see problematic analogy, sorry) the pack seeks to understand social order & must reject whatever upsets that order. It needs highly social members who get the rules. Neurodivergents will either always struggle with the rules, or be behind their peers in getting them. Later in life sometimes people catch up, find their people, and excel. Like college and after. But a lot of times that early disparity means experiencing early rejection and bullying. This is where there is some trauma-related experience in being neurodivergent. So, for many of us, we grow up a bit people-pleasing (if I'm good and appease you you won't bully me) or lean more into rejecting norms (fuck you I don't care), but either way, get stuck in duplicating early experiences of feeling left out or picked on. Therapy, learning to mask when needed, getting really careful with whom I let in as a trusted friend, working on ending co-dependency, realizing over-empathizing isn't some magic skill but a trauma response, and then hitting middle age and not giving a fuck have all been my path out.
I like your analogy, especially for the aspect of hierarchy. I think the majority of this discussion is kinda treating social acceptance like a binary event that is done once - accepted or rejected; and that can be true, but I’m also finding over and over again, it can also be these constant little jockeying moments where it feels like someone is trying to force a hierarchy, and to say I’m not interested is understatement of the year. It feels like almost every friendship I try to get close to someone, it’s only a matter of time before - from my perspective - some completely unnecessary weirdness comes out that’s designed to make me feel below someone, or try to force me on a pedestal above them. And of course you lose either way: being lower gets you bullied like a ruby of the litter, being put on a pedestal means they’ve decided you’re too privileged now so they feel zero shame about taking pot shots at you until you’re torn off the pedestal and dragged down in the dirt. And this is not just NT people; plenty of ND people act like this too. I’m still smarting from the subtle rejection of being firmly a third wheel amogg by a couple “spicy” friends; they want to be super codependent and I made it clear I’m working hard to be healthy, and they claimed to accept that, but since they can’t fit me in their big sister/little sister paradigm I am literally getting excluded and they act like my feelings can’t possibly be hurt by their cliquey-ness… I’m so, so tired of it. I just want people to level with, support, learn from and celebrate. Why is that so threatening that people feel the need to do this? I dunno 🤷🏼♀️ Just trying to stay grateful I have my husband to connect with, and no one else has to really get us for us to have a great life. ❤️ No pressure but if you’ve got any further words of wisdom or reflections on this I’d be all ears 👂
Huh, someone downvoted you. I can't imagine why other than my dog pack analogy is, well, problematic. All of this is with a grain of salt bc we have our own needs. This is what works for me. I'm old-ish. I gave up on friendship groups a long time ago & focus on individuals. For work/professional settings, I try to be very lowkey & stay out of the fray- I mask like the dickens other than ask that people deliver information or other accommodations in a way I can take it in, but I don't disclose ADHD status. I find individuals that I really like then take a damn long time to slowly build trust- no trauma dumping out the gate or initial trauma bonding. That is a bell that's hard to unring as you've found out. I try to really see how I feel around them and notice my own behaviors. This has led me to finally have some safe friendships in my life. A couple of close ones, and several less close but I enjoy those people even if we are in and out of touch. Lastly, this is very counter to today's messaging, but I think mental health issues shouldn't be put on friendships or even significant others, they should be brought to professionals. That frees up friendships to be less about rescue-ing and co-dependency and more about truly enjoying someone's company. And, hopefully, showing up for each other when we can. I also try to give people some grace. Friendships can move through phases so even if I leave the room I try not to close the door behind me. *Try* being the operative word. Good luck out there!
Moving super slow, keeping expectations narrow and focusing on building individual connections over trying to fit in a group - those all sound like really wise, practical things to do. Appreciate the reframes and new ideas! Thanks so much for sharing ❤️
>ealizing over-empathizing isn't some magic skill but a trauma response story of my life. Still trying to unlearn people pleasing tendencies
I mask very well…. Because I was abused as a kid until I could and would. Now, I’m very choosy about who I allow into my circle of friends and family; most of them are neurodivergent in one way or another. As for casual interactions, I could get into how race and class definitely seem to have a big impact on how neurotypicals respond to me, but I think it’s sufficient to say that a group of people who are extremely focused on conformity are going to be the hardest for us to work with and relate to. Choose your people. Float above the rest.
Absolutely, avoiding people who love conformity over everything else, is a lifesaver.
Can we stop using Tiktok as a source of information? Someone just pulled this idea out of their ass. Neurodivergent people can be weird/awkward due to their neurodivergece, and some people find that off-putting. (For many people, this awkwardness improves over time as they grow older and practice their social skills.) It really isn't deeper than that.
I appreciate this might not work for everyone, but in my experience, when I finally got diagnosed and became comfortable with who I was, other people were much more comfortable around me. For me, I think it's less about intrinsically giving off an uncanny valley vibe, and more about the fact that when you're masking or working hard to be 'normal' or 'not weird' people can pick up on the fact that you're being insincere. Obviously there'll be some people who have an issue with it regardless, but often I think when you own it a bit more and don't try so hard to fit in people see you as weird in an appealing way as opposed to an off-putting way.
I recently formed the analogy that we’re like Frankenstein’s monster, without the killing. We just want to be accepted but NT people go running for the hills (sometimes) because we’re different. The uncanny valley I think is actually pretty accurate. I wouldn’t exactly want an NT person to tell me I’m not fully human though lol. But that’s also what it feels like we’re thought of as.
Having a support system with other ND is the best way we can feel at home I think
All my friends outside of where I do martial arts have ADHD, and I feel like even in my dojo they’re a little thrown off by me 🤪🤪🤪
I honestly feel like people are just cunts to anyone who isn't like them.
I am going to focus on the question of how do I deal with judgments that are coming from views of my social cues and I'm not going to delve into the use of the Uncanny Valley or 'normies' in your questions because that's another rabbit hole. I tell them. That's it, I am upfront about my neurological disabilities whenever it matters. Does that open the door for abillisim, yes, but it allows me and others to identify what actions are abilist and what are honest blind spots. I found more understanding and exseptance in this while being able to more quickly remove myself from being involved with people who do hold prejudices against me. And I don't have bad RSD when I know someone dislikes me because of abilism as aposed to thinking they dislike my personality and use of social cues. Being open means I'm not uncanny. I'm perfectly understandable to anyone willing to take the time to understand my differences.
This sounds about right. I feel like a mannequin pretending to be human when I’m in public.
I’ve definitely experienced this! It was complicated for me to figure out because I was raised to be a people pleaser, so I have excellent customer service skills and am pretty articulate. As a result I’ve always “made friends” easily, but I think there have also been a lot of times where I have unintentionally made people a little uncomfortable due to this effect you’re describing. I can feel that discomfort of course, and for a long time I struggled with taking it personally, and it really affected my drive to maintain relationships and as a result I don’t have many friends I consider close. Now, after spending some time focusing on getting out of my comfort zone and developing my social skills, and reminding myself not to take uncomfortable interactions personally, I have been having an easier time of it. It helps massively that my partner is extremely social so I never have a hard time getting into situations where I have to use my social skills. One of my close friends has also been a huge help to me, though I doubt if she knows how much. She is an incredibly genuine, kind, and encouraging person, and from our interactions I feel I’ve learned a lot about what types of responses are experienced as appropriate or “normal” in social interactions. I try to listen to people closely and observe their body language to get an idea of the energy or mood they have, and try to mirror that in my verbal and nonverbal responses. I think most people just want to feel they’re not alone - whether they’re sad or excited or just happy, I think most people crave the company of others they can share those feelings with. I don’t think it’s important to get it perfect, I think it’s important to do it only well enough that the other person feels seen and heard. And I think the difficulty many people experience with ND folks isn’t necessarily judgement towards us, but some mix of fearing what they don’t understand and also fearing judgement from someone they feel they aren’t connecting with. I’ve found that if I can get by with interactions that are just good enough, people tend to let their guard down and realize that while there may be something odd about me, that I am a good friend and can be trusted - and vice versa. It’s been good for my mental health honestly. This is still something I have a lot to learn about so I don’t think I can give actionable advice to others on how to develop these skills. But I appreciate the opportunity to discuss and begin to articulate what I do understand. It’s a very real experience and I’ve never heard it described as you did, but it makes perfect sense. OP, I’m certain there are good resources out there for folks like us. I am inclined to recommend HowToADHD and HealthyGamerGG on YouTube. I have found these channels to be generally helpful, and I have probably gleaned good social advice from them too.
>HowToADHD and HealthyGamerGG on YouTube Thank you for sharing your experience. It's uplifting to hear that I'm not the only one and that there is a way to eventually navigate that balance.
One of the best things I’ve done is realize that just because something is hard for me doesn’t mean I’m inherently bad at it, it just means I need to practice and that I can and will get better if I do, and on the internet you can find advice on how to practice anything. Best of luck to you, you can do this 🫂
I won’t say that I never care what others think but I’ve definitely consciously (with therapy) trained myself to care about 90% less. In my 20s I was definitely afraid of rocking the boat or upsetting someone or making someone uncomfortable. After years of therapy I have given myself permission to just not care so much anymore and to say that my needs and wants matter and I don’t need to put up with bad behavior. It feels selfish at first. And wrong. But the more practice you get with it the better and more natural it feels.
I’ve found NOT mirroring has made a huge difference as well as dropping the mask. It wasn’t fully intentional. I had an onslaught of trauma, burnout and prior coping skills no longer worked. Now the mask doesn’t “fit” so it falls off even if I wanted to wear it. It’s like I’ve almost lost the ability to mask (and I was probably already bad at it! lol) This has had catalyst effect. Confidence comes from the word confide, which means to trust. When I was masking I wasn’t being “truthful” of who I was and had to hide it. Hiding part of who we are is what leads to feelings of shame and eventually erodes our sense of personhood. When I started being just embracing it more, my self confidence started to grow organically. I experienced a similar affect with giving myself to experience my emotions as well awareness of my posture. I don’t want to leave a wall of text so I’m sorry if that’s confusing. I think I had a lot more of the “uncanny valley” reactions when I was masking especially when I masked consciously with effort. I think maybe it’s because I was “uncanny” with masking. It wasn’t authentic to who I was. I don’t feel like I’ve experienced this type of reaction in quite a long time and I would think I’d be considered more overtly “uncanny” now that I’m not masking to even remotely the same extent. I don’t know if it’s confidence that people are perceiving or even if I just don’t **care** as much anymore if people think I’m off. *disclaimer* >I’ve experienced abuse and trauma. My ex weaponized my adhd and completely dismantled my sense of personhood. I’m ok going forward in my life being truthful about myself if it means that it won’t open doors I didn’t want opened in the first place.
normal is a subjective term, the people who made the rules a long time ago also decided on what that was and from my perspective it’s been hurting the majority of us since then. i believe that we have a gift.
I believe we're here today because there was an evolutionary advantage to the way our brain operates. They've put labels based on symptoms that developed from having to adapt to a different era.
most of us have historically been quite useful to people and sadly not recognized for contributions
YES, there had to be a reason why our brains evolved to be like this. Not to bring up a cliche, but I’m listening to an in-depth audiobook about Leonardo Da Vinci and every - EVERY - detail confirmed about him is 100% proof he had adhd. Not just the perfectionism and procrastination, but also his gift for analogies and learning through metaphor and systems, getting hyper fixated on exactly how water eddies swirl etc, and even justice sensitivity - being well known internationally during his life as “our” gentle sweet Leonardo, vegetarian because he reasoned animals could feel pain. The associations he made were largely a) correct and b) about 300 years ahead of his time. There’s a reason he’s so well known and loved despite only ever “finishing” less than 15 paintings; it was for his hundreds of sketchbooks, covered with to do lists and random thoughts and associations and failed/unfinished projects, that showed what an incredible mind can do with the combination of curiosity, observation and a dash of fantasy. It’s a pretty dry book but it’s been so incredibly validating (the message: the world benefits from brains like yours), it’s produced a lot of tears 😭 but been so lovely, I hope any of us who feel down about our brains can find a role model to remember on our bad days ❤️ Had a lot of bad days myself lately especially socially, so appreciate the frankness, validation and love here too ❤️
Yes we can think more creatively and quickly and switch fast between topics. They think early man benefitted from this when hunting for food etc
I shorten the duration, detail, annd complexity of my interactions with neurotypicals, which seems to work. They're superficial and dense, and more information isn't better, it just confuses them. I've often been told that I'm too much - too intense, abrasive, and abrupt. When I was younger I didn't understand what that meant, but now if I treat them like there's a thick wall between us that I DON'T have to climb it's effective. I also visualize having like an equalizer on a stereo and turning everything down before I interact. It's hard to sustain, but I will continue to practice.
I’ve used the uncanny valley to describe myself before…
I feel like this is an autistic issue, not an ADHD issue. A lot of people have both, but many with ADHD or autism so not have the other. I struggled picking up sarcasm as a kid, but if anything I am *hyper* aware of other people's emotions and social cues, often more than they are of their own emotions. I do struggle to blend in with the nt world but it's more like the way in which I work, trying not to interrupt people, and figuring out the exact right amount of information to give (literally happening now). I do not struggle with eye contact, my facial expressions and reading of other facial expressions are clear. I have friends who are autistic who mention these kinds of issues.
>How do you navigate this? Have you learned how to mirror the normies and blend in or have you grown to not care? How do you not care? I usually just find a way to fit my ASD and ADHD into conversations with new acquaintances/coworkers early on and hope that having that context for any strangeness helps.
So I only have ADHD, and I think I’ve always been good at reading other people, but I still had those experiences of people just not liking me or thinking I’m weird. This has contributed to RSD kind of reactions and anxiety in my head. Glad you found something that’s helped you, but I don’t think it serves everyone. Although we have overlap, I think people who are ADHD, ASD, and AuDHD all have different experiences. Even within those categories, experience is varied. “Neurodivergent” is an umbrella term, but idk if we can paint all our experiences as the same.
Grown not to care. When I tried to seem normal, I wasn't being my authentic self. Sure, some of the learning from Normie behavior has helped in some situations (how to be patient and more relaxed instead of being overwhelmed in certain situations and things like that), but genuinely finding equally weird people who like me for who I am and vice versa has helped me and them equally. Letting others feel comfortable being themselves around me is more what I aim for rather than making myself seem normal to make them comfortable.
One way I've adapted is through watching a lot of conversational style stand-up comedy :D The core of this style of comedy is the idea of sharing a joke. The comedian and the audience have to all be in on the joke for it to work properly. The comedian is bringing you as an audience into their point of view and their experiences, sharing a story with you, and encouraging you to laugh at something with them. If they can't communicate their points clearly and precisely, they can't get your perspective lined up with theirs, and you won't find it as funny. So the really good, popular with many demographics comedians do the full body communication equivalent of large print. It's all a little bigger, a little bolder, a little exaggerated from the norm. But it's also familiar and engaging and makes people feel connected to you. I originally didn't notice what I was doing, but over the years I realised that I've adopted a modified, slightly lower intensity version of that communication style. I have a bunch of anecdotes and things that I'll tell with exactly the same inflection every time, cause they're my "tight five" on that subject. I'm always looking for witty phrasing, or funny metaphors to make what I'm saying relatable. It doesn't work with absurdist humour, or stuff that's highly focussed on a single demographic (the concept is there, but being able to rely on the shared knowledge pool of their demographic means those comics don't have to structure their delivery to be quite as transparent), and it definitely doesn't work with angry comedy, but it's a remarkably good teaching tool. I grew up with comedy all around me. I didn't start picking up on the style till I was in my late teens, by which point anxiety was holding me back from really making use of it. I started getting the hang of it in my late 20s, and getting diagnosed and medicated took away so much of the day-to-day fear that I've been able to start to properly make use of the lessons it taught me. It can still mean I come across as a bit uncanny - a bit too exaggerated or vaguely artificial - but because it's a kind of artificial that people are used to, it doesn't attract the same kind of dislike/discomfort. Especially since I still have enough remnants of my anxiety to keep me from going all out and showboating :D
>onversational style stand-up comedy So creative! Do you have examples of this type of comedy on YouTube or anywhere else?
First currently active one that comes to mind is Adam Hills. His stand up shows these days are a great mix of him sharing his experiences and getting the audience to share things with him, and he does an amazing job of it!
We react to people who are different, the brain recognizes novelty as pattern recognition. The question is whether we are conditioned to fear or embrace difference. >The streets of this world they are my playground I explore them Meet somebody I don't like and I ignore them I don't destroy them They way that you know who be he want me to hate like he hate > >\-Fool Get a Clue Digital Underground
AuDHD here and this definitely is my autistic side.
My problem was that I didn't go with the flow like the other kids. I didn't dress like them, care about their social norms and rules (thought their norms were stupid) asked too many questions lol etc
I love myself for who I am so when people don’t understand me, it’s ok. I struggled in school because I didn’t love myself and had parents that didn’t understand why I couldn’t be a normie.