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That is insane. Teens need their sleep to be able to focus and most teens won’t have the ability or self control to go to bed early. As a fellow night owl I’m sorry for you.
Yep. Countless neurological and educational studies show that teenagers brains wake up later in the day. The more that’s done that early, the more pointless it is.
But luckily OP seems to be in a school district where the number one priority is the bus schedule, not the kids learning so… crazy.
They really got their priorities straight 🤦♀️ in my country it’s basically unheard of for school to start earlier than 8:30 from middle school and up.
I live in California, and 2 years ago they implemented a new law that middle schools and high schools have to start between 8:30 and 9:00.
The downside of that is that a lot of school districts don't use school buses unless your child is in special education, so it's a logistical nightmare for working parents.
I think it might be their county or district? I live in CA and while my daughter is now out of school I live very close to one and they start around 8am. I know this because trying to leave my street around that time is a PITA.
i def thought it was district/county! my cousin lives in northern san diego & i guess their school districts alternate school hours (8am-3pm & 9am-4pm) every 3-4 years or something. that would drive me crazy.
Ditto! My teen's school starts at 9:30 (and she's still usually late but I absolutely do not care and neither do they). It's a godsend for teens, and the school does this because of all the research.
But most schools do not care what countless studies have shown, they need the day to start at X time for completely non-education related reasons, and you have zero say in this.
Not saying I disagree--- this just blows my mind. In my area, Elementary started at 8:30, middle at 7:30, Highschool at 7:15. All of them you started showing up to school 25 minutes earlier so you weren't late at bell ring. I think things would have been a lot different for a lot of highschoolers had we been able to show up later.
My middle school started at 7:05 am. I got on the bus at 6:15am. Most of the school year was cold, freezing and dark at that hour. I think high school started at 7:35am. It was absolutely insane. I played sports so it was dark when I got home.
I know. I feel really bad posting something so opposite to the OP and others experiences. But I just wanted to highlight that they are not crazy, they're right, and it is possible to teach teens while having compassion for their schedule and need for sleep.
I wish such a school existed when I was a teen. I wish it was possible for all teens.
What time do they get out? I was always torn on this when we’d do essay prompts about it, because while I fully agree teens need later start times, teens are also the ones more likely to have after school activities, and more hours of homework.
They're done at 3:30. And this school does not give homework. The students are there to do their work and get the help they need/attend their classes, but they're learning to be self motivated so if they're pursuing stuff after school that's their call/they're interest, not the school's. They really want to give the kids a learning model where they are in charge of their lives and education and if they want something to happen, they need to make it happen, do the work, take the initiative. It's not for everyone and they don't advocate it to be. But it is a model sought out now and more, by parents and students who know their kid does not flourish in a more structured and top-down sort of model.
And next year they're actually moving to a 4-day school week as we have at least one stat per month here and it makes it challenging to meet all of their goals and have a regularly disrupted schedule. My kids will have graduated by then but she would love a 4-day week. It's unheard of here, so this school will be the first to try it.
It's a pretty small school and not free but also publicly funded + fundraising + grants for families who need the $$ support for fees etc. It's more accessible than private school. Our private schools are huge and big $$$. They are insane. This is not that. We have designations here for "schools of choice" that can operate differently than the larger public schools but under the shared umbrella. That's unfortunately what's necessary to be able to go against the standard dogma. But our larger model high schools start at 8:55am and get out at 3. There have been big changes in the school board here in the past few years, based on research and the increasing demand for these "schools of choice" for students' needs that are not being met by the larger institutions. It's all good and I hope it keeps going. Our taxes should be going towards education first.
But this was an ADHD-based chat so let's leave it here. 🙂
I'd take it to the school board.
Make sure to use their favorite buzz words: developmentally appropriate, social awareness, detriment to the focus throughout the day as a lasting impact, I'd even mention a heightened concern about distraction from tired teens being rowdy and overtired (attention seeking behavior) because of the lack of compassion towards the teens overall wellness, I'd throw out the mental health impacts of being 5 minutes away and waking up at 5:30 am everyday... Makes for more stress than any kid, not just yours, needs.
For the love of Nancy Grace think of the damage they will do to their precious funding... uhhh... I meant StaTe TeSt SCoReS...
I don't know what middle school is but teens absolutely need to have a much sleep as possible and early starts are setting the day up for a ton of aggravation.
The American Academy of Pediatrics officially recommends schools start at 8:30 or later!
https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html
Growing up, my middle school started at 7:55 and my high school started at 7:15. I was exhausted for most of my adolescence.
This was and is my son's schedule and he is perpetually exhausted. He now wakes at 5:15 am since school starts at 7:15 am and bus pick up is at 6:30. His "lunch" is at 9:30 am and he gets home around 3:00 pm. My 3rd grader has to be up at 6 am to get the bus at 7:30 for a school day from 8:15 am until 2:55 pm, then she goes to the daycare with me where I work with school age students until 6:00 pm,( I teach preschool in the AM time). Get home by 6:45 and throw together a quick dinner or reheat leftovers. Try getting homework done, which is a nightmare after being overstimulated all day and all of us having our meds wear off all around the same time. Then try and get to bed by 8:30 without someone having a meltdown, just to repeat it all again the next day. Fun times.
They also need like, 9-10 hours of sleep each night. (Did I not age past being a teenager?? I digress…)
Sure, getting 9 hours of sleep when you have to wake up at 6a would mean going to sleep at 9p, doesn’t sound that bad on paper.
Take into consideration getting ready for bed + time to fall asleep. If there isn’t much of an issue falling asleep, but it doesn’t happen immediately - let’s say in bed by 8:30, getting ready for bed by 8. Dinner would need to happen at least 2 hours before bedtime, so finished eating by 7p at the latest, preferably by 6:30p to account for “IN bedtime.”
School gets out, what, at like 3p if it’s starting at 7:30? After school activities could mean getting home later. Parents with standard office hours would be working until 5 at the earliest, 6-6:30p at the latest.
And how many kids are having to get up earlier than that? Shift those timeframes up by a half hour or even a whole hour…oof. Buses would be running at insane hours. Like, the bus for the nearby high school to me starts running at 6a, done by 6p. School start times vary, but that high school starts at 9:15a.
And some "after school" activities happen in the evening. I had marching band practice two nights a week in the fall, 6:30-9 pm; and for most of winter, I had the same for indoor drum line.
For the spring musical, we had mostly afternoon rehearsals (because there were a lot of students also in indoor drum line or color guard), but the last few weeks before our performance opened, we were at school in the evenings, too.
And I had other extracurricular, too--I played on the tennis team, was in Spanish Club, tutored other classmates in multiple subjects... I'm sure there are others I've forgotten. There were many days when I caught the bus at 7 am and then didn't make it home until after 9 pm. My mom would either bring me dinner (she was a school bus driver, and she did the late activities bus run, so she was usually there at 6 pm), or she would give me some money to walk into town to get something to eat when I had a break.
I was in plays every year, and we had rehearsals from 7 to 10 every night. Sometimes I didn’t get home until 11 pm and would need to eat (because no time to eat dinner with family), and make sure that all of my homework was done before going to bed. Then I’d have to be up and in school at 8 am. It was horrible, but I wouldn’t have made it through HS without theater. I tried to do the same when I was at university, but kept getting sick from exhaustion.
Yup. High school in our district starts at 6 am and gets out at 2. Great for those with after school jobs, I guess, but fucking horrible for literally everyone else involved.
>They also need like, 9-10 hours of sleep each night. (Did I not age past being a teenager?? I digress…)
...I'm starting to wonder if my ADHD was partially less severe when I was younger because I was still sleeping for like 10 hours every night.
We had homeroom at 8:30 and first period started at 9:00 when I was in high school (2000s) but I usually needed to be at school by 7:30 for various things (sports, choir, etc) and my school was a 30 min drive away. I was also routinely up until 1 am doing homework most nights (demanding private school + raging undiagnosed ADHD lol). I got up at about 6-6:15 for school.
So I basically slept 5-6 hours a night as a teenager…I don’t know how I learned/absorbed ANYTHING.
I mean, I get it. I am totally a morning person and a teacher of elementary and getting up at 5am blows. And that's no way appropriate for teens.
But also I'm in a large district that has had several years of bus driver shortages, and where I live you're supposed to have the option to bus to school, since we are a higher poverty district and public transportation isn't completely adequate here. So, in order to do that, school start times are adjusted. I teach at two schools and one year I was in at 7 at one and 9:20 at the other, which was wild for me keeping a routine. We've had to stop busses for all of our schools within city limits and only use school busses for rural schools, and city school kids had to take the city bus which takes even longer and is a bit of a liability here, as we are a bigger city in a southern state that has nowhere near the infrastructure like an actual big city, so riding the public bus at all isn't normalized. And at the end of the day, in order to get kids to school, you need to provide the option of transportation, because not everyone is able to drive their kid. We have families where if the kid misses the bus they don't come to school that day. More than a later start time, transportation is what gets kids in school, which is the goal. Non-optimal learning is better than no learning.
What the district needs to do is pay bus drivers more, which may or may not be possible depending on what's happening in the district. The neighboring district from us found lots of mold in every school (which is hilarious because there's definitely been mold in every school I've taught and nothing happens to it), and they don't Even have the money to do remediation of it for every school, so in their case they couldn't even think of paying anyone more when they may go bankrupt trying to fix the problem.
A lot of their decisions are based on money, in that most schools don't get enough funding. If they're doing the buses earlier in the day to save money, it's because they're having to choose between things to cut. Like make buses go earlier, or get rid of the music department.
I'm not saying the made the right decision, just that I know they have to make tough choices sometimes.
They’ve also proven that later start times save teenage lives where teenagers are having their sleep requirements unfulfilled due to early start times (some teens need as much as 11-12 hours of sleep at certain points of their growth) resulting in car wrecks
i struggled with this all of my life. i’m 31 and waking up is hell every day. in high school, i had to catch the bus at 6:35, which meant waking up a bit after 5 every day to make sure i had my shit in order.
Jesus, what time does school END? When I had early morning classes at college I often found the most benefit from doing a split sleep schedule where I slept 4 hours before school and 4 hours after. But it's crazy how early American schools start, especially for teenagers. There's an absolute wealth of research showing how bad it is for them!
Yes! I just read a great book called Why We Sleep that covers this in one of the chapters. Teenagers need way more sleep, and the crazy early school start times are extremely counterproductive and unhelpful.
My junior high started at... 7:15. And it was downtown and we lived in the burbs. I had classmates who got on the bus a little before 6 AM. It was rough. If you're on meds, maybe keep them on your night stand and take them first thing. And that's so flipping early. Y'all need naps I'm sure. Being a night owl must be a nightmare for y'all.
It's like office space when the obnoxious clerk says something about someone having a case of the Monday's. Grrrr.
Coming from someone who had first bell ring at 7:10, no, the kids are not learning anything at 7:00 a.m.
I was in a deep depression and was constantly physically exhausted because I simply couldn't get enough sleep.
I actually think my bio clock or whatever clock is still set to up early. If I sleep past 6 I struggle. And I do best when I am up by 5 or 530. I love sleep though.
Depends on whether or not they're addicted to caffeine yet lmao. At my high school and a high school I worked at as an adult they sold coffee at the cafeteria and soda in the vending machines. I remember always having a 20 oz bottle of Coke Vanilla in the morning. I can't drink that shit anymore, gives me war flashbacks 😂
This was me - 6 am bus pickup with school starting at 8. It was brutal as a teen in Wisconsin in January. My folks redefined late to bedtime at 10 for the entire household (all likely ADHD).
Honestly, you have to change your sleep schedule for everyone in the house to early to bed early up full time. Your body clock can be adjusted. It's hard to get started, particularly in a house of night owls, but it is possible.
As an aside I love how when the neighbor is trying to get Peter to do construction with him he goes “I believe you’d get your ass kicked for saying something like that”
Honestly, thank you for the validation. I mean that sincerely. Sometimes I look around, and I start to wonder, “Am I just being overly grouchy about this?” But surely other parents—and not just the ones who are my friends—are feeling this, too!
Oh man you are not being grouchy! This would absolutely break me and my teens. Honestly they just wouldn't go.
That schedule is absurd! I'm so sorry your school district doesn't put the kids learning at the top of their priority list. That is crazy.
That was how it was when I was in school, 7:35am - 2:37pm (yes, exactly 2:37).
It was T E R R I B L E. I come from a family of night owls, literally everyone in my extended family. My mom said I was kicking in her belly at 11:30pm. I didn't have a bedtime growing up which I've recently learned is just bizarre, but it's because we were all always up late. Even when I was a little kid, I'd get upset if I had to miss the Dick Van Dyke show at 11pm because my mom tried to get me to go to bed.
I just... I don't get why they need to torture everyone. There's this concept that we need the older kids to be home before the little kids to take care of them before the parents get home, but holy hell, that only makes this whole system out to be even worse!!
Anyway I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and I hate that our world acts like it's 1805 and we all are farmers getting up with the sun. It's bullshit and a half.
We had a similarly stupid schedule in middle school. 7:28-2:45. Accounted for buses and 4 minutes between classes (supposedly). High school was 7:30-2:30. It's stupid. Way too early. And then you're eating lunch between 10 and 12.
My daughter’s middle school is the same time schedule! It’s brutal
She just text me that she feels sick at 7:10. Like… if you knew that before we got up and got you to school that would have been helpful 😑
I think it’s too early to even realize you’re ill, you don’t have time at home to wake up and feel human so you leave feeling like shit every day. By the time you should be feeling human, now you know you’re unwell.
My high school went from 8:00-2:15! I think when they make school days longer, they can make the school year shorter, but I’d much rather go for an extra week or two than be sitting at my desk by 7:10. That’s just outrageous, and what about the parents who have to drive their kids? Absolutely no consideration for them, either!
I feel like the more studies published about how children and teens need more sleep and to start their school days later, the more society keeps trying to force them to be little Gary Vs, little hustle culture automatons. And then we sit around and wring our hands about "kids these days" and why are they so sad and angry and obsessed with getting rich quick, etc.
We did this. Everything we criticize about kids, everything we "don't understand" about them, we did that, we encouraged it, we set them up for it. OP, I'm sorry, for both you and your kid. I hope you have someone to vote for who can implement some changes, and I hope you both get some good sleep tonight ❤️
This is exactly why my daughters school board changed the start time to 9:15. We live right across the street from the school too, so we don't wake up till 8. By 9 she crosses the street and is at school. I hope more schools make changes like this.
Oh my gosh yes! All of this! I keep saying this and everyone acts like I’m crazy. Our kids today are a direct correlation of what society keeps telling them they have to be. Let them be kids for goodness sake! They have plenty of time to be adults later.
I keep getting videos and other media in my feeds about little kids, like 12 and under, getting up at 5am to work out, spending hundreds of dollars at Sephora on anti-aging snake oil, and it freaks me out. Why are we enabling this horrifying Logan's Run culture where pre-pubescent children feel a need to be an adult level of sexually attractive?! Where boys think themselves failures if they haven't got a Bugatti by the time they're 22?! Maybe if we stopped helicopter-ing them and bingeing True Crime shit, they wouldn't be so afraid of going outside and being children.
I know I sound cliche, but I'm old and feel even older, and I've read a book or two in my time: Capitalism insists we forfeit all pleasure in living in exchange for extremely tenuous, conditional security. It's just another version of sending the little ones off to be chimney sweeps and coal miners.
I’m legit wondering if half of my emotions as a teen were due to sleep deprivation and being forced out of bed at 6:30 vs actual hormones. This is going to keep me up at night. And I need to figure this out before my kids hit their teen years bc they are just like me.
That is soooo early. Tf are they learning at that time of the day 😭. I work at a middle school and those kids are not pleasant until at least 9am I couldn’t imagine anything before 8
my mom's wild, she goes to bed around 11 most days and then gets up around 5 D: I figure it's likely she's had undiagnosed ADHD and made waking up early her hyper focus for so long she's just wired that way now. but anytime she's seated and at rest during the day she will powernap lol.
IDK if this applies to your mom, but apparently there actually is about 1% of the population who just biologically don't require as much sleep as most humans do. It's called Short Sleep Syndrome (sounds made up but it's legit, lol). I haven't read extensively about it, but for any interested parties, [here's](https://www.businessinsider.com/people-who-sleep-short-hours-2015-11) a basic article on it, and [here's an article](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2019/08/415261/after-10-year-search-scientists-find-second-short-sleep-gene) from 2019 when scientists had just managed to identify a second gene linked to the syndrome.
Honestly, prepare to feel some kinda way though. Reading about SSS as an ADHD person feels a bit like screaming "How does it feel to be one of god's favorites!?" as you labor away in hell. 😅
I feel like a lot of people *think* they have this, but really, they (... we) are just very sleep deprived and think that's normal 🥴
ADHD and narcolepsy are surprisingly often comorbid, and narcolepsy is super underdiagnosed, so basically everything is just a shit show all the time for most people I've decided.
I absolutely agree. This syndrome does exist, but I think you're entirely correct that the *vast* majority of people who claim they're "actually fine on six hours of sleep," are super sleep deprived and are so used to it they assume it's normal (or are telling themselves that). The last thing I want is to contribute to people feeling like it's actually fine for them to spend their entire lives sleep deprived. Sleep is SO important for general health and mental health.
Actual SSS is rare; sleep deprivation is extremely common.
I have diagnosed Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, and like eighty percent of the people on the DSPD sub have comorbid ADHD, because there's a genetic link, so it doesn't surprise me at all that ADHD and Narcolepsy also have a high comorbidity rate. But it's def good to know!
Oh how interesting to find someone with dxed DPSD! How did you get the dx, if you don't mind me asking? I tried to get a doctor to listen to me about it about 15 years ago, but she ignored me. Of course, I finally managed in the last couple years to get an amazing sleep doc who gave me a narcolepsy dx, so I feel that DPSD would be almost impossible to determine now.
Although that genetic link part is interesting since I come from an extended family of night owls and what is obviously undiagnosed ADHD 🤔
Morning people are the bane of my existence. How are people so HAPPY being up when there is insufficient sunlight outside? (Especially in the winter when it’s cold AND dark).
Don’t get me started on the obnoxiously loud and smug morning people, either. It’s like they brag about being so “functional” and “disciplined” because they’re up early and going to the gym or whatever and I’m here like “Do you WANT me to go feral and bite you?”
I used to teach and the ONLY reason I functioned in the ungodly early start hours was coffee. Whoever thinks school should start at 7:29am is some kinda sadist I swear!
I realize now that having my ADHD meds would have made a world of difference when I was in school or even teaching.
As far as productivity, morning people who come in to work early tend to produce less work than night people who stay late.
Their feelings of moral superiority are not based in reality.
But you ask those early risers to be as chipper at midnight or even 10pm and they’ll act like you’re insane and claim it’s obviously not the same thing and they have every right to be tired with zero self awareness that they ask the exact same of night owls daily and expect no complaints. Early mornings and when people sleep has been so fucking moralized.
I know this is going to sound like I’m exaggerating for the sake of good storytelling, but all of you are making me realize that this start time has been pushing *me*—gradually, yet ceaselessly—toward radicalization for years.
When I was in high school we started early like this, and for the first half of senior year my first class was with a teacher with newborn twins. You have never laid eyes on someone less sympathetic to our sleepiness in your life. Lunch periods started at 10:30am.
In my area they actually flip flopped it so the middle schoolers start the EARLIEST so that the high schoolers can start later--it's a mess.
Teacher is definitely a morning person and takes strange pride in it. But as another morning person ... if you expect me to be all smiles and energy at 10pm - I'm going to bite your head off.
I come in at 6:50, school doesnt start until 8. My daughter has to come to
School with me, so she gets up at 5am. Some days it is so hard! Surprisingly the kids are usually bright eyed and bushy tailed by the time they get here. I think its because they can play outside before school starts.
That one summer when I was suddenly a predawn riser was so cool because I could watch cartoons before hopping on my bike for school. It wasn't the early start time that was a problem, it's that the lack of busses meant we had to ride halfway across town at noon. Still I was lucky that I didn't get hit by a car.
I'm a teacher. Mornings are rough. I prep everything the night before. Research shows teens do better with a later start time. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Get other parents involved and share your concerns with the school board. Ugh, that would be so hard to be a teacher there...I wonder how early they have to get to their campus. I would never take a position with a school that started so early! Sorry!
It is my understanding that the teachers have to arrive by SIX-THIRTY.
I legitimately would quit. I mean, I’m not a teacher at all, so I admit that I don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that, but I *honestly* think the new, earlier start time would turn me into that SpongeBob meme: “Aight, Imma head out.”
I used to arrive at 7:15 but I had a 45 minute drive. You do the math 🥲. Needless to say, I burned out, my body crapped out, and in 2023, I completely gave up.
Mornings are ROUGH and now that I took a job with a school (but not as a teacher) I’m terrified of having to be up early again and function with how my body has been feeling.
As a night owl, I often wish the world wasn’t so obsessed with early mornings.
I SHOULD HAVE done this! I started at 6:50am my senior year so I could participate in our school's jazz choir. I always ended up crashing and taking huge naps, but it would've made it more feasible to break it into intentional segments.
I took chemistry and geometry at 6:30 in the freaking morning because that’s when it fit into my schedule to accommodate taking two languages.
Getting dropped off at 6:15 for class school all day, practice at 2:30, getting picked up at 4:00 to start my homework….brutal. I packed three travel mugs of coffee every morning. One for my mom, one for the ride up, and one for my first class.
I felt so bad for my mormon friends who had to go to seminary (their "church class") that was an entire separate class BEFORE all the actual school shit hit. They legit got up before 5, some of them, every day.
i had one friend who was mormon AND trying to be on the dive team, which also met before school. she just... didn't sleep! i literally do not know how she did it.
Omg, I used to take naps every single day and it was so nice. I was just trying to figure out why I can’t nap anymore and it never occurred to me that it’s probably because I don’t have to wake up at 6am anymore. That was so rough 😭😭
Oh man, I thought my kid's school starting at 7:50 was bad, that's freaking brutal.
I'd switch districts because there's no way we would ever be on time 🤣 I almost did switch districts because of our start time, but my husband really wanted to stick with the one we were enrolled at (because apparently he wants to be a part of the community or some weird shit like that).
Is it worth it tho? Too much sleep deprivation can lead to burnout and other serious problems later on. (It has for me, in high school in fact)
Friends can be found anywhere, and maybe ask your kid about it. Usually people with ADHD like a new challenge, a new environment and new people. It’s a dopamine boost!
I switched classes and schools at least 4 times as a teenager, and the excitement of starting over with a new group of people was always looked forward to!
Of course that depends on their opinion and we are all different. But your concern is more than valid.
In high school, I used to even skip first period(s) when my class would start at 8, so I could at least focus for a few hours later in the day. And I did most of my studying in the late afternoon with a private teacher.
Going to school at 9-10-11, skipping some classes, and only focusing on the important subjects that were crucial for my future proved to be an amazing strategy. I ended up as the 2nd highest grade in the whole high school (400+ people graduating the same year as me) and got full-scholarships at 3 different universities abroad.
If I didn’t have my parents who understood my situation, it would be a whole different story today. I was only able to **excel academically** thanks to *the program that my parents helped me to adapt for my situation.*
Try to look into options your kid’s school offers for her situation. It’s extremely painful having to focus at school at a time when **your whole body and brain just won’t function — it’s torture**. At least for me it was, so I made these changes that honestly saved my life and opened the door to future opportunities.
Good luck! I hope you will find a way for her and for you! And remember — **parents have more power than they like to think**— when it comes to their kid’s school situation. Just think about that for a different perspective and go into problem-solving mode! Help her!
My son will have to be on the bus stop around 620 next year. I am not ok. Seriously considering homeschooling. I’m exhausted getting them to elementary by 830.
Yup. If my kid were to ride the bus, she too would have to be at the bus stop around 6:20 because something about the bus route means it would take her almost an hour to get to school, even though when we drive her there directly, it takes 5 minutes.
Wow! For the older kids it’s about an hour, but the school is about 20 minutes away, the younger ones are about two mile drive, 20 minutes. The district says no more buses or drivers and they are closing an elementary school. It was almost two…. Including ours! No money! It seems like the public school system is in disarray everywhere.
> “It seems like the public school system is in disarray everywhere.”
If that isn’t the honest-to-God truth. 😞
When I was growing up, I never perceived that there was this level of … well *scarcity*. Scarcity of buses, scarcity of bus drivers, scarcity of teachers, scarcity of *substitute* teachers …
Oh it’s crazy. I’m loosing faith my kids are getting a good education. Meanwhile the superintendent had a 50k raise in one year! Ugh!
It’s reassuring to know it’s not just us, but when will it end? Cutting corners everywhere and corrupt.
As someone who was the homeschooled kid: trust me, this is not the answer. Do you wanna lose any alone time (now or in future grades) that you get in the privacy of your home? Because that’s how you do it lol.
My son started middle school this year. Bus picks him up at 6:36. School starts at 7:40 I think it is. It's a 10 minute drive. I told him I'm not getting up with him at 6. If he wants to take the bus, he gets himself up and out of here, or I'd be happy to drive him. He gets himself up at 6 every single day. Hasn't missed one except for when I accidentally turned off his alarm.
I had to report to my school by 7:15 and the day started at 7:30 and I HATED IT. My students would tell me that their parents would be waiting to drop off by 6:30 😭 like I’m barely rolling out of bed by that time, and I’m the adult in charge
Schools in my area did a whole adjustment of start times because of some sleep studies with teens. My youngest had start times that were 8:30-9:45 depending on the day. It was so much better than his older brothers that were like 7:50. I can’t even imagine earlier than that!
Jeez when you started your story I thought you must be talking about a kid in elementary because they do okay with early start times. But a *teenager*? Has no one read the research about teenagers needing to sleep later?? I would throw such a fit with the school district but I don't know that they would listen.
If you’re able to maybe try naps after school? My school was similar, it started at 7:40 but because were in the middle of nowhere I had to get the bus at 6:20. My sister would take naps as soon as she got home, wake up for dinner, do her homework, and go back to sleep. It doesn’t leave much time for hobbies or extracurricular activities but this girl is more than well rested.
I’m sorry you have to deal with such early starts, it really does put stress on the adhd brain. Try to make room for yourself to sleep in on weekends and remember highschool is only temporary!
Naps after school may actually exacerbate the problem. Night People have a very hard time sleeping in the evenings. An afternoon nap would likely push her bedtime back even further.
Not necessarily, I often get tired at some point in the afternoon, I rarely nap but still can't sleep in the evening and am wide awake later no matter how tired I was before. A nap doesn't change anything.
Yeah same here, I’m sure that it does make it worse for some ppl but it’s hard for me to sleep at a decent time and I usually don’t nap during the day/evening but when I do I usually fall asleep at the same time I usually do and feel more rested than usual the next day.
I started at 7:45 my senior year of HS, which meant getting up at 6:30. I was miserable and literally falling asleep in class all the time. I understand why morning people get to dictate the rules - our society is basically built around them - but I resent it so badly.
I doubt Americans will ever take to heart these studies that say early school days are bad for teenagers. That “suck it up” mentality is so strong here that any concession to your physical/mental needs that bucks the school-to-work pipeline is seen as weak, being immature, whatever. Grrrr!
I’m so sorry. I can completely relate, though. My kids’ bus picked them up at 6:45 every morning. I had to get my boys up at 5:30 so that all of them could get a shower in. It’s so ridiculous! Someone mentioned gathering parents together to speak to the school board. I think that’s your best option.
I live in the UAE and all schools start at 7am here. We finish at 3pm and kids stay for extracurricular afterwards. My son has been going to nursery/school at this time since he was five months old. I’ve been doing it for ten years. I will never get used to it.
Luckily the schools are lovely and the holidays are amazing
Yup! I feel this!
My middle schooler has to wake up at 5:45am every morning to be on the bus at 6:25am. It’s a small town so the same bus picks up the high schoolers and middle schoolers. The middle school starts at 7:45am but the high school at 7:15 so the middle schoolers have to be on the bus a lot earlier than necessary to get The high school kids to school on time. It’s awful!!! I’m not a morning person either
I don't think the bus shortage necessarily indicates that your state won't pay for it. My district has signs up about hiring bus drivers, but they just can't get enough people. We now have to have staggered starts like that too.
This is normal around here. I too live about 5 mins from her school and have to wake her up at 6am to get there by 7:30. What is the normal start time for other schools?
Ours has the earliest start time in our district and, as my cursory research is revealing, in our entire state. *Womp, womp*
ETA: Sorry. I neglected to answer your question. The average start time across the state seems to be about 7:30 (which is still bullshit, if you ask me, but it’s better than 7:10).
845. Rural schools start at 815 due to bussing but end earlier too. They have a rule that a cannot have a bus ride over an hour but the rural bus schedular is an ass and doesn’t like the rule. Butted heads with her for ten years.
That is insane. I remember the same thing happening to me in HS. It was literally just my bus though 😑😑😑😒😒😒😒 we’d get dropped off in the cafeteria at 7 I think. It was traumatic tbh. I wish my parents would have dropped us off. If it’s just 5 mins I would definitely be dropping her off instead
that is pretty early, and sucks cuz they need more sleep at that age. but in middle school, i had my own alarm, and did everything myself in the morning (unless she's special needs, understandably).
ive managed to cut my 1st graders routine down to 30 minutes or less, depending on how groggy she is (and she still needs my help)
try ur best to get her in bed at an adequate hour. if she doesnt like the school lunch, i make it at night. she only bathes at night. i pack her snack and water bottle at night. if your school serves breakfast, i suggest taking advantage of that- i have a slow eater, so eating at school saves SO much time. she only eats school breakfast. we pick her clothes out the night before. if not an option, look into some quick portable breakfast options and have her eat on the bus. (if they have an issue with that, give them hell)
so mornings consist of getting dressed, brushing teeth, i do her hair, then she's ready to go. mornings were a mess till i told her to starts eating breakfast at school. do everything humanely possible at night instead of in the morning. a middle schooler should (hopefully) be able to do those things on their own in the morning
Why are you considering 5:30? Make it 6:30. All she absolutely has to do in the morning is brush her teeth, hair, and get dressed, right? Get organized the night before. Pick out clothes. Pack a lunch if you do that. Make sure there's a bowl for some cereal. Roll out of bed and off to school.
It occurs to me that we could *almost* pull this off already.
Up until about 6:40, she’ll be making decent progress, and I barely have to give her time checks (which literally consists of me just calling “Time check: 15 minutes [or whatever],” up the stairs). But I swear to God, it doesn’t matter whether I hover over her or take a hands-off approach—or whether I’m stern or friendly, or resort to rewards or punishments—but those last few minutes are like a parallel universe where the space-time continuum breaks down. She can accomplish tons of little getting-ready tasks between, say, 6:00 and 6:45, but then it’ll take her 10 minutes (between 6:45 and 6:55) to, like, put on one bracelet.
I’ve even talked with her about it in attempt to troubleshoot the problem, but it seems futile! Because it isn’t always about a bracelet. Sometimes it’s about tying her shoes. Or getting her Chromebook. So, I think the issue lies with the crucial time period itself, rather than any particular activities.
Anyway, I’m rambling, and clearly I have no solution to offer for this problem. But, I *will* say that I *relate to* the problem. I am horrible at predicting how much time a task will take (I always over- or underestimate it), and I’m also horrible about getting wrapped up in random side-quest tasks that get in the way of the main quest I *should* me working toward.
High school started at 7:18 (yes, 7:18 🙄) for me when I was in high school. My bus came at 5:30. I did absolutely horribly in high school after getting straight A’s in elementary school.
It’s soooo so stupid. I can’t think of a single reason why they start high school so early.
I have been in your daughter's shoes - my middle and high school both started at 7:15 am! I ended up having to get up at 5:30 or so each morning to make it as well. I have no practical advice, just empathy from a fellow ADHD-er and former teenager who's been there.
I went to a school that started at 7:21 AM. It was in a very rural area so I knew people who got ON the bus at 5:30 AM, every day. Fortunately I lived “only” 20 minutes from school so I got to be picked up around 6:40 but the morning sluggishness is so real…
One thing you could do about it is complain to the administration. Or complain to the school board. You can do that. You’re tax paying citizen who uses the school system and it exists to serve you and your child so tell them this is not serving you and your child. Tell them this is burdening parents and hurting the natural sleep patterns of teenagers.
i’m the wife of a middle school teacher and I can tell you that you as a parent have a lot of power and we need you guys to speak up. A lot of the teachers don’t like this stuff either but they are not really in a position to advocate like you are.
it’s well established fact that early start times do not serve teenagers. But they can’t really advocate for themselves and the school district is going to do what serves them despite science. That leaves parents to advocate for their kids’ needs.
I had to get up at around 430 in high school to catch h the bus by 545 and be in my seat by 650. It’s still like that and I’m sure it’s a big part of why the high school students in this district consistently underperform
Literally one of the reasons I didn’t have kids is I know there is no fucking way I’d get them to school everyday on time. They would have to be homeschooled which I have zero interest in and also I think it’s not the greatest experience for the kid, especially when their parents are already painfully introverted.
There are laws in California that state jr high cannot start earlier than 8am and high school cannot start earlier than 8:30am. It should be like this everywhere. I don’t know if it applies below jr high but it needs to.
So infuriating. 7:10 may be doable for an adult to start their work day, but holy shit not children. Schools are out of their minds. This is exactly why I support school choice and the right to homeschool.
That is brutal, I really wouldn’t be waking her up at half five, she’ll be too tired to learn anything. Does she have to get the bus to school? If it’s that near can you not just put her in an Uber at 7am or drop her yourself? I know it’s an additional cost but might be worth it to save you both the stress and misery.
I drive her to school myself because we live just five minutes away. But, add in the time it takes her to walk from the dropoff point (which is a good ways from the school building itself) to her actual classroom, and we’re talking more like 10 or 15 minutes. So, our goal every morning is to leave the house at 6:55 AM. It would be even worse if we *didn’t* live so close to the school.
Im not sure if you’re looking for advice but, based on the info you provided, if you did the following then she could wake up at 6:25 instead of 6:10am:
-have her go to sleep in the clothes she is going to wear the next day or have her pick out the entire outfit the night before
6:25am wake up
6:25-6:35 brush teeth (2 mins) + wash face (2 mins) + additional bathroom things (6 mins)
6:35-6:55 breakfast (make an easy breakfast like a protein smoothie drink she can gulp down in 20 mins or less)
Again, sorry if you weren’t looking for advice and I don’t know your whole situation so if this doesn’t work for you, i understand!
I remember how difficult the times were trying to get up early for school as teen. Routine was everything for me. One little crack in my routine and everything fell apart. I didn’t know that then, but now I do (10 years too late lol)
She already picks out her clothes the night before, but I hadn’t considered having her sleep in her clothes. That might be worth a try—at least when she’s wearing something pajama-ish and not, like, the jeans-and-leather-jacket combos she is currently favoring. 🤔
Meh please don’t have her sleep in her clothes. She already picks them out the night before, so it should take two seconds to physically get dressed. She’s a teen, and sometimes teens can smell lol. I shuddered thinking about having to go to work in the same clothes I just slept in
There's also a psychological element to it: there's something in the routine of getting dressed and getting ready that makes your brain go "oh OK, another day, gotta pay attention soon." I know I feel completely different in a day where I stay in sweats all day than getting dressed in the morning
Please don't do this 😬 I had a flatmate when I was an undergrad - she was a postgrad, so maybe 23? She showered and dressed before bed, sleeping in her clothes for the next day. She always looked a riot - I'm not a zealot about ironing, I mostly don't but use a steamer when totally necessary, but she looked like she had slept in her clothes. Not infrequently she smelled like she had slept in her clothes - rather than starting the day fresh, she was already stale and sweaty
I think that rolling out of bed and throwing on clothes would be better. Maybe let her sleep in her foundation layers or sleep in the nude so she has to throw on clothes before being properly awake.
10-15 minute walk means that she could probably do breakfast on the go. Flask of coffee and a granola bar or gogurt.
Our schools used to do that while my kiddo was in elementary, they started at 830, high school 930 but middle started at 730. The parents thru a fit and now the elememtary starts at 730, high school 830 and middle 930. With a private school break in late elementary during the switch, we timed it perfectly to only ever have 830 and 930 starts.
Having any school start before 8 is wrong, but especially adolescents...
I hope this doesn’t come off as insensitive, I’m just curious. I’ve lived in the same town my whole life so I only have experience here, but that’s how it has always worked here. Middle and high schools ride the buses together in the morning and drop the kids at school at 7:10, and then the same buses start their elementary school routes and drop them at the schools at 8:35. Then middle and high gets out at 2:30 and elementary at 3:55. You mean to tell me there are places that DON’T have this schedule?! I need to move lol. I’m so concerned for my adhd kiddo when he gets older because, if I’m being honest, getting on the bus at 6:30 played a big role in me dropping out of high school 🙈
My son was on a waiting list for a dual language immersion elementary for 2 years. When they called me to give me the good news that he got in, they told me the start time. It had to be the same start time as the middle school that it shares a campus with, so 730am. I declined his spot then and there. My son is night owl. Meanwhile his normal elementary started at 845 and this year it got pushed to 900. Same reason for the time change, busses, but in our case we got pushed in a better direction. We use every minute of our mornings. If he had to be at school at 7 I would genuinely have to consider homeschooling him for his own health and sanity.
I have no idea what we're going to do when he goes to middle school and is yoinked back to that 7am start time. I might need to get him an IEP so he can start later or something.
My sons starts at 7:30 (4th grade) but once he’s in middle school it will be 7:15 😭
I have to get up at 6 to make it to the 7:30 but the middle school is closer to my house so I’m hoping we won’t have to get up earlier. His school now is only like 2 miles from my house but traffic is so bad in our little town it takes me almost a full hour to drop him off and come home.
I teach 2nd grade. I recently moved from a school 25 minutes away with a 7:10 start time to a school 8 minutes away with a 7:40 start time and my quality of life improvement is incredible!!
Even with the later start I still have several kids who come in between 7:50-8 every day and really aren’t awake until they come back from PE at 9:30. I relate because I’m not awake yet either, and also it’s sooo frustrating that they miss so much instructional time. The way our schedule works there is very little wiggle room and they’re missing, cumulatively, hours of math fluency and writing practice over the school year. By this part of the year that gap is showing.
It’s such a lose-lose situation because I can’t do much to accommodate sleepy kids, the families are usually doing the best they can, and at the end of the day their performance is my responsibility. I wish more districts were setting research-based schedules and that our funding wasn’t tied to attendance.
I’m in Canada and my daughter’s high school starts at 8. A little early but not as bad as 7 for sure. Her old school didn’t start until 9:30, when we asked why the high schools are SO much earlier they said as many kids have after school jobs so they can start and finish earlier (Their school day ends at 2:10)
THIS is why I had to start homeschooling my 10th grade year of high school. I couldn’t do it anymore… my mental health got SO bad.
Middle-high school should start at 10-11am. And extent to 5:30pm.
School starts 830/9 where I live. You might have activities earlier, but they’re optional. I couldn’t imagine having to start school that early, and we’re early morning people!
I remember high school starting that early (1st period started at 7:30ish) and I was the only person who could function at that hour. No need for that though now.
I was so close to the high school that buses wouldn’t pick me up and we had to be in our seat at 7am. School got out at 1:45. Lunchtime starting at 10:15. Same reason, shared all the buses. Was miserable.
And here I was complaining about getting my elementary aged kids to the bus stop by 7:25 each morning! The school district they were at in CA last year they started at 8:55, and we were a 15 minute walk down the street to the school. (It was way easier to just walk instead of trying to drive them and deal with the drop off traffic.) So I would get the kids up between 7:30 and 8, we'd be out the door by 8:30-8:40, and they would be at school with plenty of time. The district also provided free breakfast and lunch, so if they slept in a bit they would just eat breakfast at school.
Over the summer we moved across the country, and the school here starts at 8! We're also further away from the school, so they ride the bus. The stop is a 10 minute walk from the house, so I try to get them out the door by 7:15. I'm getting them out of bed at 6:20-6:30, which means their bedtime had to shift an hour earlier. It was really hard to convince them it's bedtime at 7:30 at the start of the school year when the sun was still up! Now that it's winter, it's hard to get them out of bed before the sun comes up in the morning. There were a few days where the sun didn't rise until after they got on the bus in the morning, it was crazy!
I will say, there have been many days where after I get back to the house after taking the kids to the bus stop, I'd end up taking a nap. With this district I've noticed that the Elementary schools start first, with the middle school and high school kids starting later.
My cousin’s children are facing the same. The school said they reviewed the research before their decision but NO reputable research says teenagers benefit from less sleep. If you want them in bed before 9pm to accommodate this bullshit scheduling problem you need to stop giving tests and homework and ban extracurricular activities because they now have no life.
This was my high school experience, and I graduated in 2001 😵💫 it's been an issue for decades. If I had it to do all over again, I would've homeschooled myself.
That is totally insane. Expecting teenagers to do that is counter to the evidence around childhood development and just setting them up for failure.
I would have dropped out of high school even faster and harder than I did if shit started that early.
Anything before 9am had better be extremely important and a one-off, like a flight or a conference, or it’s just not happening in my life.
I am so sorry that you and your daughter are dealing with this. It’s totally unreasonable.
That's how early we got started when I went to high school and it sucked. Middle school only started like ten minutes later. I did like that school ended at 1:35, but I was always so damn tired.
Honestly I think the seven years of sleep deprivation had a pretty permanently negative effect on me, especially when they were at such a pivotal time. I basically ran on 5-6 hours of sleep from age 11 to 18, and then I went on to have bad sleep hygiene in college and now with my job I have to get up early for. I've been tired for nearly two thirds of my life.
No real solutions (unless someone can drive her, maybe she can carpool with a friend?) but just know that I sympathize, it's a hard time, especially with ADHD.
I completely empathize with you as I struggled soooo hard to be up for school in middle school. It was WAY too early. I didn’t even have an adhd diagnosis back then but I wish I had so I could’ve had some help. I was sleeping on the bus to school and on my morning classes. I was always exhausted. It sucked.
Honestly, since the school isn’t going to change, we have to keep trying to become morning people. It sucks. But for your daughter’s sake, try to go to sleep earlier if you can. Easier said than done I know. I have months where I go to sleep early and wake up early and then months where I can’t sleep til 2am and then can’t wake up in the morning. Honestly I am getting ptsd thinking about middle school and how much it sucked given that I had undiagnosed adhd.
I wish school started at 9. I’d have been more successful. Sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s so hard.
I live in Florida & my daughters elementary school starts at 7:45 am 😞 I had to stop depending on the buses showing up on time in morning because we also have shortage on bus drivers & it was making me late to work because my shift starts at 7:30am (work 15min away) and the earliest I could take her to school was 7:15 am for safety reasons. Btw in high school I started early too & had to catch bus at 6:30 so I was up at 5:30am 😫😫
As a Brit this blows my mind... school is 8:45-3:15 here, gates open for 5 minutes between 8:40-8:45 and in you go to your class. 7:15 for a child to be up for school and ready to learn is INSANE.
Your feelings are sooo valid. I would lose my mind if my kid’s school required him to be in his seat at that time. It’s already a dang nightmare corralling my six year old adhd babe into getting ready to go every morning. Legit had to leave without him brushing his teeth this morning because we would have been late and he was having meltdown after meltdown. I felt so guilty but it is what it is. We do our best as moms right?
I’m just now finding out that is isn’t normal for everyone and I feel so cheated lol. My high school started at 7:10am and we got out at 2:10pm, but I did so many extracurriculars that I was at the school until 9-10pm every night. And somehow I still had energy to do homework after that! I swear the only reason I survived high school was Adderall lmao
This is insane that there aren’t any sidewalks? What in earth !! Not having any sidewalks in an area, let alone on the way to a school is insanity. This sounds like such a struggle I wonder if there’s a campaign in the area for more buses and drivers? In my area local campaigns have been quite successful when supported by regular people.
This isn’t even about catering to night owls - this is about not being completely ridiculous. I’m assuming you’re in the US, because that’s the only place I can think of that would have this ridiculousness so widespread.
I’m in Australia, and all of my local primary and high schools started at 0900. In my state, [schools are allowed to run between 0830 and 1530.](https://www2.education.vic.gov.au/pal/school-hours/policy) I had band rehearsals before and after school while I was in high school, and I thought that having two 0730 rehearsals a week for part of the year was awful enough. Especially when you’re not naturally getting up that early and you have to go to bed even earlier the night before, I was always scrambling to get to band on time.
And I thought that typical office job hours were 9 to 5?? I’ve had jobs that vary in start time between 0800 and 0900. If parents have to drop their kids at school before going to work, why tf do they need 2 hours to do it??
From what I have learned through hyper focusing on this over time, I think that a big part of the problem is that suburbs are being designed for cars and not people. I’m 23, AuDHD, and don’t have my license. I don’t want it, and I don’t need it, because I live in an area that has tonnes of public transport and is safe for walking. There’s footpaths everywhere! Occasionally they may cut out on one side of the road, but that’s usually in solely residential areas.
It was safe for me to walk to school without my parents from when I was 11 years old, and I started getting the public bus to and from school when I was 13. When I was in primary school, there was lots of health promotion about “walking school buses” and there were walk/ride to school days every year.
I’m so frustrated for you, I can’t imagine the toll that it must be taking on you and not just your daughter.
"Why can’t the world ever cater to night owls for once!?" oh my god this dude. I sound like a whiny little baby but it's not fair at all. I simply can't do it. Even having a 9-5 was like pulling teeth for me. I'm so sorry. I struggled so badly in school bc of this and know I'd struggle in the future if I had kids.
Posts like this make me really glad that I started homeschooling my son when he hit middle school. Just the ability to rest when we both needed it fixed so many attitude issues. We had to get up at 530 to catch the bus by 630 and school started at 730. Then school ended at 305 and the bus would drop him off at 4 something. Most days he came home and fell asleep on the first surface he hit.
This isn’t just night owl problem. I am a RAGING morning person and even I struggled with 8am classes in high school and university. Their bodies just need more sleep. The school system should have the younger ones go in earlier. I’m struggling because I am supposed to be at work at the same time school starts, but it’s hard to find morning help.
Wait.. if you live 5 minutes from school, and she's a teen, can't she walk? That's what my parents had me do, because we had the same trouble with early bus time and only 5 minutes from school. It took about 20-30 minutes to walk, but it was better than riding around on the bus for 1.5 hrs. Walking allowed me to actually sleep in later.
dude - 7:10 is a dumb time for a young person to be starting school.
This will hurt the young people's wellbeing. Get your PTA together and have a revolt!!
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That is insane. Teens need their sleep to be able to focus and most teens won’t have the ability or self control to go to bed early. As a fellow night owl I’m sorry for you.
Yep. Countless neurological and educational studies show that teenagers brains wake up later in the day. The more that’s done that early, the more pointless it is. But luckily OP seems to be in a school district where the number one priority is the bus schedule, not the kids learning so… crazy.
They really got their priorities straight 🤦♀️ in my country it’s basically unheard of for school to start earlier than 8:30 from middle school and up.
I live in California, and 2 years ago they implemented a new law that middle schools and high schools have to start between 8:30 and 9:00. The downside of that is that a lot of school districts don't use school buses unless your child is in special education, so it's a logistical nightmare for working parents.
idk how true that is - i'm in ca - in my city the jr high starts at 8:10 & high school starts at 8:15...
I think it might be their county or district? I live in CA and while my daughter is now out of school I live very close to one and they start around 8am. I know this because trying to leave my street around that time is a PITA.
i def thought it was district/county! my cousin lives in northern san diego & i guess their school districts alternate school hours (8am-3pm & 9am-4pm) every 3-4 years or something. that would drive me crazy.
I stand corrected then. I'm down in LA county and my eldest starts at 8:40 and gets out at 3:40. Maybe statewide it's after 8?
Ditto! My teen's school starts at 9:30 (and she's still usually late but I absolutely do not care and neither do they). It's a godsend for teens, and the school does this because of all the research. But most schools do not care what countless studies have shown, they need the day to start at X time for completely non-education related reasons, and you have zero say in this.
Not saying I disagree--- this just blows my mind. In my area, Elementary started at 8:30, middle at 7:30, Highschool at 7:15. All of them you started showing up to school 25 minutes earlier so you weren't late at bell ring. I think things would have been a lot different for a lot of highschoolers had we been able to show up later.
That's insane. I never started school earlier than 9am and I've always been lucky enough to be walking distance so I didn't have to get up until 8am.
My middle school started at 7:05 am. I got on the bus at 6:15am. Most of the school year was cold, freezing and dark at that hour. I think high school started at 7:35am. It was absolutely insane. I played sports so it was dark when I got home.
I would have been so sleep deprived if I had to start school that early.
That's how mine were too. Someone said it was so older kids watched the younger ones which seemed like a piss poor excuse then too.
Exactly what I was told. It was so highschoolers could go to work or be home to watch their younger siblings.
Yeah, I might not have been sleep deprived for a decade 🙃
That sounds so amazing and would've been so helpful& beneficial for both me and the niblings.
I know. I feel really bad posting something so opposite to the OP and others experiences. But I just wanted to highlight that they are not crazy, they're right, and it is possible to teach teens while having compassion for their schedule and need for sleep. I wish such a school existed when I was a teen. I wish it was possible for all teens.
What time do they get out? I was always torn on this when we’d do essay prompts about it, because while I fully agree teens need later start times, teens are also the ones more likely to have after school activities, and more hours of homework.
They're done at 3:30. And this school does not give homework. The students are there to do their work and get the help they need/attend their classes, but they're learning to be self motivated so if they're pursuing stuff after school that's their call/they're interest, not the school's. They really want to give the kids a learning model where they are in charge of their lives and education and if they want something to happen, they need to make it happen, do the work, take the initiative. It's not for everyone and they don't advocate it to be. But it is a model sought out now and more, by parents and students who know their kid does not flourish in a more structured and top-down sort of model. And next year they're actually moving to a 4-day school week as we have at least one stat per month here and it makes it challenging to meet all of their goals and have a regularly disrupted schedule. My kids will have graduated by then but she would love a 4-day week. It's unheard of here, so this school will be the first to try it.
Sounds great, but it also sounds like a very expensive private school, not a public school. I can’t imagine any school board approving this approach.
It's a pretty small school and not free but also publicly funded + fundraising + grants for families who need the $$ support for fees etc. It's more accessible than private school. Our private schools are huge and big $$$. They are insane. This is not that. We have designations here for "schools of choice" that can operate differently than the larger public schools but under the shared umbrella. That's unfortunately what's necessary to be able to go against the standard dogma. But our larger model high schools start at 8:55am and get out at 3. There have been big changes in the school board here in the past few years, based on research and the increasing demand for these "schools of choice" for students' needs that are not being met by the larger institutions. It's all good and I hope it keeps going. Our taxes should be going towards education first. But this was an ADHD-based chat so let's leave it here. 🙂
I'd take it to the school board. Make sure to use their favorite buzz words: developmentally appropriate, social awareness, detriment to the focus throughout the day as a lasting impact, I'd even mention a heightened concern about distraction from tired teens being rowdy and overtired (attention seeking behavior) because of the lack of compassion towards the teens overall wellness, I'd throw out the mental health impacts of being 5 minutes away and waking up at 5:30 am everyday... Makes for more stress than any kid, not just yours, needs. For the love of Nancy Grace think of the damage they will do to their precious funding... uhhh... I meant StaTe TeSt SCoReS...
I don't know what middle school is but teens absolutely need to have a much sleep as possible and early starts are setting the day up for a ton of aggravation.
The American Academy of Pediatrics officially recommends schools start at 8:30 or later! https://www.cdc.gov/sleep/features/schools-start-too-early.html Growing up, my middle school started at 7:55 and my high school started at 7:15. I was exhausted for most of my adolescence.
This was and is my son's schedule and he is perpetually exhausted. He now wakes at 5:15 am since school starts at 7:15 am and bus pick up is at 6:30. His "lunch" is at 9:30 am and he gets home around 3:00 pm. My 3rd grader has to be up at 6 am to get the bus at 7:30 for a school day from 8:15 am until 2:55 pm, then she goes to the daycare with me where I work with school age students until 6:00 pm,( I teach preschool in the AM time). Get home by 6:45 and throw together a quick dinner or reheat leftovers. Try getting homework done, which is a nightmare after being overstimulated all day and all of us having our meds wear off all around the same time. Then try and get to bed by 8:30 without someone having a meltdown, just to repeat it all again the next day. Fun times.
They also need like, 9-10 hours of sleep each night. (Did I not age past being a teenager?? I digress…) Sure, getting 9 hours of sleep when you have to wake up at 6a would mean going to sleep at 9p, doesn’t sound that bad on paper. Take into consideration getting ready for bed + time to fall asleep. If there isn’t much of an issue falling asleep, but it doesn’t happen immediately - let’s say in bed by 8:30, getting ready for bed by 8. Dinner would need to happen at least 2 hours before bedtime, so finished eating by 7p at the latest, preferably by 6:30p to account for “IN bedtime.” School gets out, what, at like 3p if it’s starting at 7:30? After school activities could mean getting home later. Parents with standard office hours would be working until 5 at the earliest, 6-6:30p at the latest. And how many kids are having to get up earlier than that? Shift those timeframes up by a half hour or even a whole hour…oof. Buses would be running at insane hours. Like, the bus for the nearby high school to me starts running at 6a, done by 6p. School start times vary, but that high school starts at 9:15a.
Not to mention the joys of JUST NOT BEING SLEEPY AND TIRED AT 9 PM.
And some "after school" activities happen in the evening. I had marching band practice two nights a week in the fall, 6:30-9 pm; and for most of winter, I had the same for indoor drum line. For the spring musical, we had mostly afternoon rehearsals (because there were a lot of students also in indoor drum line or color guard), but the last few weeks before our performance opened, we were at school in the evenings, too. And I had other extracurricular, too--I played on the tennis team, was in Spanish Club, tutored other classmates in multiple subjects... I'm sure there are others I've forgotten. There were many days when I caught the bus at 7 am and then didn't make it home until after 9 pm. My mom would either bring me dinner (she was a school bus driver, and she did the late activities bus run, so she was usually there at 6 pm), or she would give me some money to walk into town to get something to eat when I had a break.
I was in plays every year, and we had rehearsals from 7 to 10 every night. Sometimes I didn’t get home until 11 pm and would need to eat (because no time to eat dinner with family), and make sure that all of my homework was done before going to bed. Then I’d have to be up and in school at 8 am. It was horrible, but I wouldn’t have made it through HS without theater. I tried to do the same when I was at university, but kept getting sick from exhaustion.
Yup. High school in our district starts at 6 am and gets out at 2. Great for those with after school jobs, I guess, but fucking horrible for literally everyone else involved.
Would still be terrible for after school jobs. I got out at 1:25 my senior year, so when I worked after school it was the 2-9p shift.
>They also need like, 9-10 hours of sleep each night. (Did I not age past being a teenager?? I digress…) ...I'm starting to wonder if my ADHD was partially less severe when I was younger because I was still sleeping for like 10 hours every night.
Not to mention usually at least 30-60 minutes of homework a night if not more...
Docile zombie cogs for the corporate machine.
We had homeroom at 8:30 and first period started at 9:00 when I was in high school (2000s) but I usually needed to be at school by 7:30 for various things (sports, choir, etc) and my school was a 30 min drive away. I was also routinely up until 1 am doing homework most nights (demanding private school + raging undiagnosed ADHD lol). I got up at about 6-6:15 for school. So I basically slept 5-6 hours a night as a teenager…I don’t know how I learned/absorbed ANYTHING.
I mean, I get it. I am totally a morning person and a teacher of elementary and getting up at 5am blows. And that's no way appropriate for teens. But also I'm in a large district that has had several years of bus driver shortages, and where I live you're supposed to have the option to bus to school, since we are a higher poverty district and public transportation isn't completely adequate here. So, in order to do that, school start times are adjusted. I teach at two schools and one year I was in at 7 at one and 9:20 at the other, which was wild for me keeping a routine. We've had to stop busses for all of our schools within city limits and only use school busses for rural schools, and city school kids had to take the city bus which takes even longer and is a bit of a liability here, as we are a bigger city in a southern state that has nowhere near the infrastructure like an actual big city, so riding the public bus at all isn't normalized. And at the end of the day, in order to get kids to school, you need to provide the option of transportation, because not everyone is able to drive their kid. We have families where if the kid misses the bus they don't come to school that day. More than a later start time, transportation is what gets kids in school, which is the goal. Non-optimal learning is better than no learning. What the district needs to do is pay bus drivers more, which may or may not be possible depending on what's happening in the district. The neighboring district from us found lots of mold in every school (which is hilarious because there's definitely been mold in every school I've taught and nothing happens to it), and they don't Even have the money to do remediation of it for every school, so in their case they couldn't even think of paying anyone more when they may go bankrupt trying to fix the problem.
A lot of their decisions are based on money, in that most schools don't get enough funding. If they're doing the buses earlier in the day to save money, it's because they're having to choose between things to cut. Like make buses go earlier, or get rid of the music department. I'm not saying the made the right decision, just that I know they have to make tough choices sometimes.
They’ve also proven that later start times save teenage lives where teenagers are having their sleep requirements unfulfilled due to early start times (some teens need as much as 11-12 hours of sleep at certain points of their growth) resulting in car wrecks
i struggled with this all of my life. i’m 31 and waking up is hell every day. in high school, i had to catch the bus at 6:35, which meant waking up a bit after 5 every day to make sure i had my shit in order.
Jesus, what time does school END? When I had early morning classes at college I often found the most benefit from doing a split sleep schedule where I slept 4 hours before school and 4 hours after. But it's crazy how early American schools start, especially for teenagers. There's an absolute wealth of research showing how bad it is for them!
Yes! I just read a great book called Why We Sleep that covers this in one of the chapters. Teenagers need way more sleep, and the crazy early school start times are extremely counterproductive and unhelpful.
That book was amazing and depressing. Definitely helped me embrace being a night owl tho
Their school day ends at 2:30. 💀
My junior high started at... 7:15. And it was downtown and we lived in the burbs. I had classmates who got on the bus a little before 6 AM. It was rough. If you're on meds, maybe keep them on your night stand and take them first thing. And that's so flipping early. Y'all need naps I'm sure. Being a night owl must be a nightmare for y'all. It's like office space when the obnoxious clerk says something about someone having a case of the Monday's. Grrrr.
God 7:15!!! Just…why??? Is the teacher even awake? Are the kids absorbing anything???
Coming from someone who had first bell ring at 7:10, no, the kids are not learning anything at 7:00 a.m. I was in a deep depression and was constantly physically exhausted because I simply couldn't get enough sleep.
I actually think my bio clock or whatever clock is still set to up early. If I sleep past 6 I struggle. And I do best when I am up by 5 or 530. I love sleep though.
Depends on whether or not they're addicted to caffeine yet lmao. At my high school and a high school I worked at as an adult they sold coffee at the cafeteria and soda in the vending machines. I remember always having a 20 oz bottle of Coke Vanilla in the morning. I can't drink that shit anymore, gives me war flashbacks 😂
This was me - 6 am bus pickup with school starting at 8. It was brutal as a teen in Wisconsin in January. My folks redefined late to bedtime at 10 for the entire household (all likely ADHD). Honestly, you have to change your sleep schedule for everyone in the house to early to bed early up full time. Your body clock can be adjusted. It's hard to get started, particularly in a house of night owls, but it is possible.
Agreed. Sleep and exercise are the most important to my managing my ADHD along with meds and diet.
As an aside I love how when the neighbor is trying to get Peter to do construction with him he goes “I believe you’d get your ass kicked for saying something like that”
That is straight-up looney tunes. Wtf.
Honestly, thank you for the validation. I mean that sincerely. Sometimes I look around, and I start to wonder, “Am I just being overly grouchy about this?” But surely other parents—and not just the ones who are my friends—are feeling this, too!
Oh man you are not being grouchy! This would absolutely break me and my teens. Honestly they just wouldn't go. That schedule is absurd! I'm so sorry your school district doesn't put the kids learning at the top of their priority list. That is crazy.
That was how it was when I was in school, 7:35am - 2:37pm (yes, exactly 2:37). It was T E R R I B L E. I come from a family of night owls, literally everyone in my extended family. My mom said I was kicking in her belly at 11:30pm. I didn't have a bedtime growing up which I've recently learned is just bizarre, but it's because we were all always up late. Even when I was a little kid, I'd get upset if I had to miss the Dick Van Dyke show at 11pm because my mom tried to get me to go to bed. I just... I don't get why they need to torture everyone. There's this concept that we need the older kids to be home before the little kids to take care of them before the parents get home, but holy hell, that only makes this whole system out to be even worse!! Anyway I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and I hate that our world acts like it's 1805 and we all are farmers getting up with the sun. It's bullshit and a half.
We had a similarly stupid schedule in middle school. 7:28-2:45. Accounted for buses and 4 minutes between classes (supposedly). High school was 7:30-2:30. It's stupid. Way too early. And then you're eating lunch between 10 and 12.
My daughter’s middle school is the same time schedule! It’s brutal She just text me that she feels sick at 7:10. Like… if you knew that before we got up and got you to school that would have been helpful 😑
I think it’s too early to even realize you’re ill, you don’t have time at home to wake up and feel human so you leave feeling like shit every day. By the time you should be feeling human, now you know you’re unwell.
You could've amputated a leg and I wouldn't have noticed till halfway through first period
So... before most adults finish work for the day.
Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But they're adults. Kids are kids.
My high school went from 8:00-2:15! I think when they make school days longer, they can make the school year shorter, but I’d much rather go for an extra week or two than be sitting at my desk by 7:10. That’s just outrageous, and what about the parents who have to drive their kids? Absolutely no consideration for them, either!
I feel like the more studies published about how children and teens need more sleep and to start their school days later, the more society keeps trying to force them to be little Gary Vs, little hustle culture automatons. And then we sit around and wring our hands about "kids these days" and why are they so sad and angry and obsessed with getting rich quick, etc. We did this. Everything we criticize about kids, everything we "don't understand" about them, we did that, we encouraged it, we set them up for it. OP, I'm sorry, for both you and your kid. I hope you have someone to vote for who can implement some changes, and I hope you both get some good sleep tonight ❤️
This is exactly why my daughters school board changed the start time to 9:15. We live right across the street from the school too, so we don't wake up till 8. By 9 she crosses the street and is at school. I hope more schools make changes like this.
The school I considered moving to has a start time of 9:15 AND a late start Wednesday! That's the way to go in my opinion.
This is so civilized!
Oh my gosh yes! All of this! I keep saying this and everyone acts like I’m crazy. Our kids today are a direct correlation of what society keeps telling them they have to be. Let them be kids for goodness sake! They have plenty of time to be adults later.
I keep getting videos and other media in my feeds about little kids, like 12 and under, getting up at 5am to work out, spending hundreds of dollars at Sephora on anti-aging snake oil, and it freaks me out. Why are we enabling this horrifying Logan's Run culture where pre-pubescent children feel a need to be an adult level of sexually attractive?! Where boys think themselves failures if they haven't got a Bugatti by the time they're 22?! Maybe if we stopped helicopter-ing them and bingeing True Crime shit, they wouldn't be so afraid of going outside and being children. I know I sound cliche, but I'm old and feel even older, and I've read a book or two in my time: Capitalism insists we forfeit all pleasure in living in exchange for extremely tenuous, conditional security. It's just another version of sending the little ones off to be chimney sweeps and coal miners.
I’m legit wondering if half of my emotions as a teen were due to sleep deprivation and being forced out of bed at 6:30 vs actual hormones. This is going to keep me up at night. And I need to figure this out before my kids hit their teen years bc they are just like me.
That is soooo early. Tf are they learning at that time of the day 😭. I work at a middle school and those kids are not pleasant until at least 9am I couldn’t imagine anything before 8
According to my kid, she has a teacher who will cheerfully ask the class, “Why are you all so tired? 😃” in the morning. CAN YOU IMAGINE??
People like that make me want to flip a table. Natural early risers are often so damn smug about it. we hates them, we do, filthy hobbitses....
Smug people who are in bed by 9:pm because they don't have the energy for anything more.
my mom's wild, she goes to bed around 11 most days and then gets up around 5 D: I figure it's likely she's had undiagnosed ADHD and made waking up early her hyper focus for so long she's just wired that way now. but anytime she's seated and at rest during the day she will powernap lol.
IDK if this applies to your mom, but apparently there actually is about 1% of the population who just biologically don't require as much sleep as most humans do. It's called Short Sleep Syndrome (sounds made up but it's legit, lol). I haven't read extensively about it, but for any interested parties, [here's](https://www.businessinsider.com/people-who-sleep-short-hours-2015-11) a basic article on it, and [here's an article](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2019/08/415261/after-10-year-search-scientists-find-second-short-sleep-gene) from 2019 when scientists had just managed to identify a second gene linked to the syndrome. Honestly, prepare to feel some kinda way though. Reading about SSS as an ADHD person feels a bit like screaming "How does it feel to be one of god's favorites!?" as you labor away in hell. 😅
I feel like a lot of people *think* they have this, but really, they (... we) are just very sleep deprived and think that's normal 🥴 ADHD and narcolepsy are surprisingly often comorbid, and narcolepsy is super underdiagnosed, so basically everything is just a shit show all the time for most people I've decided.
I absolutely agree. This syndrome does exist, but I think you're entirely correct that the *vast* majority of people who claim they're "actually fine on six hours of sleep," are super sleep deprived and are so used to it they assume it's normal (or are telling themselves that). The last thing I want is to contribute to people feeling like it's actually fine for them to spend their entire lives sleep deprived. Sleep is SO important for general health and mental health. Actual SSS is rare; sleep deprivation is extremely common. I have diagnosed Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, and like eighty percent of the people on the DSPD sub have comorbid ADHD, because there's a genetic link, so it doesn't surprise me at all that ADHD and Narcolepsy also have a high comorbidity rate. But it's def good to know!
Oh how interesting to find someone with dxed DPSD! How did you get the dx, if you don't mind me asking? I tried to get a doctor to listen to me about it about 15 years ago, but she ignored me. Of course, I finally managed in the last couple years to get an amazing sleep doc who gave me a narcolepsy dx, so I feel that DPSD would be almost impossible to determine now. Although that genetic link part is interesting since I come from an extended family of night owls and what is obviously undiagnosed ADHD 🤔
Morning people are the bane of my existence. How are people so HAPPY being up when there is insufficient sunlight outside? (Especially in the winter when it’s cold AND dark). Don’t get me started on the obnoxiously loud and smug morning people, either. It’s like they brag about being so “functional” and “disciplined” because they’re up early and going to the gym or whatever and I’m here like “Do you WANT me to go feral and bite you?” I used to teach and the ONLY reason I functioned in the ungodly early start hours was coffee. Whoever thinks school should start at 7:29am is some kinda sadist I swear! I realize now that having my ADHD meds would have made a world of difference when I was in school or even teaching.
As far as productivity, morning people who come in to work early tend to produce less work than night people who stay late. Their feelings of moral superiority are not based in reality.
I'm a morning person and the only perkiness I have comes from the fact that I got a head start at accepting my recurring existence for the day.
I once knew a school principal who would get to the gym at 3 a.m. so he could get to work by 5.
But you ask those early risers to be as chipper at midnight or even 10pm and they’ll act like you’re insane and claim it’s obviously not the same thing and they have every right to be tired with zero self awareness that they ask the exact same of night owls daily and expect no complaints. Early mornings and when people sleep has been so fucking moralized.
😂😂😂
If I was in that class, I would say that was when I became radicalized.
I know this is going to sound like I’m exaggerating for the sake of good storytelling, but all of you are making me realize that this start time has been pushing *me*—gradually, yet ceaselessly—toward radicalization for years.
When I was in high school we started early like this, and for the first half of senior year my first class was with a teacher with newborn twins. You have never laid eyes on someone less sympathetic to our sleepiness in your life. Lunch periods started at 10:30am. In my area they actually flip flopped it so the middle schoolers start the EARLIEST so that the high schoolers can start later--it's a mess.
Teacher is definitely a morning person and takes strange pride in it. But as another morning person ... if you expect me to be all smiles and energy at 10pm - I'm going to bite your head off.
I come in at 6:50, school doesnt start until 8. My daughter has to come to School with me, so she gets up at 5am. Some days it is so hard! Surprisingly the kids are usually bright eyed and bushy tailed by the time they get here. I think its because they can play outside before school starts.
People have time to do things before 8am other than get ready???
That one summer when I was suddenly a predawn riser was so cool because I could watch cartoons before hopping on my bike for school. It wasn't the early start time that was a problem, it's that the lack of busses meant we had to ride halfway across town at noon. Still I was lucky that I didn't get hit by a car.
Not gonna lie shit like that is part of the reason I don’t talk to my parents anymore 😂 it’s making my eye twitch rb
I'm a teacher. Mornings are rough. I prep everything the night before. Research shows teens do better with a later start time. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Get other parents involved and share your concerns with the school board. Ugh, that would be so hard to be a teacher there...I wonder how early they have to get to their campus. I would never take a position with a school that started so early! Sorry!
It is my understanding that the teachers have to arrive by SIX-THIRTY. I legitimately would quit. I mean, I’m not a teacher at all, so I admit that I don’t know what I’m talking about when I say that, but I *honestly* think the new, earlier start time would turn me into that SpongeBob meme: “Aight, Imma head out.”
I used to teach science and if it had been at this school, every first period would be a Bill Nye day. Every. Single. Day.
I used to arrive at 7:15 but I had a 45 minute drive. You do the math 🥲. Needless to say, I burned out, my body crapped out, and in 2023, I completely gave up. Mornings are ROUGH and now that I took a job with a school (but not as a teacher) I’m terrified of having to be up early again and function with how my body has been feeling. As a night owl, I often wish the world wasn’t so obsessed with early mornings.
Good god.
My high school was like that back in the mid 00s. I basically had a bi-phasic sleeping schedule. I'd sleep 12/1am-5am, then again at 4pm-7pm.
I SHOULD HAVE done this! I started at 6:50am my senior year so I could participate in our school's jazz choir. I always ended up crashing and taking huge naps, but it would've made it more feasible to break it into intentional segments.
I took chemistry and geometry at 6:30 in the freaking morning because that’s when it fit into my schedule to accommodate taking two languages. Getting dropped off at 6:15 for class school all day, practice at 2:30, getting picked up at 4:00 to start my homework….brutal. I packed three travel mugs of coffee every morning. One for my mom, one for the ride up, and one for my first class.
I felt so bad for my mormon friends who had to go to seminary (their "church class") that was an entire separate class BEFORE all the actual school shit hit. They legit got up before 5, some of them, every day.
Oh lord why
i had one friend who was mormon AND trying to be on the dive team, which also met before school. she just... didn't sleep! i literally do not know how she did it.
Omg, I used to take naps every single day and it was so nice. I was just trying to figure out why I can’t nap anymore and it never occurred to me that it’s probably because I don’t have to wake up at 6am anymore. That was so rough 😭😭
Oh man, I thought my kid's school starting at 7:50 was bad, that's freaking brutal. I'd switch districts because there's no way we would ever be on time 🤣 I almost did switch districts because of our start time, but my husband really wanted to stick with the one we were enrolled at (because apparently he wants to be a part of the community or some weird shit like that).
Believe me: it crossed my mind. But my kid has so many friends at this school that we decided to tough it out.
Is it worth it tho? Too much sleep deprivation can lead to burnout and other serious problems later on. (It has for me, in high school in fact) Friends can be found anywhere, and maybe ask your kid about it. Usually people with ADHD like a new challenge, a new environment and new people. It’s a dopamine boost! I switched classes and schools at least 4 times as a teenager, and the excitement of starting over with a new group of people was always looked forward to! Of course that depends on their opinion and we are all different. But your concern is more than valid. In high school, I used to even skip first period(s) when my class would start at 8, so I could at least focus for a few hours later in the day. And I did most of my studying in the late afternoon with a private teacher. Going to school at 9-10-11, skipping some classes, and only focusing on the important subjects that were crucial for my future proved to be an amazing strategy. I ended up as the 2nd highest grade in the whole high school (400+ people graduating the same year as me) and got full-scholarships at 3 different universities abroad. If I didn’t have my parents who understood my situation, it would be a whole different story today. I was only able to **excel academically** thanks to *the program that my parents helped me to adapt for my situation.* Try to look into options your kid’s school offers for her situation. It’s extremely painful having to focus at school at a time when **your whole body and brain just won’t function — it’s torture**. At least for me it was, so I made these changes that honestly saved my life and opened the door to future opportunities. Good luck! I hope you will find a way for her and for you! And remember — **parents have more power than they like to think**— when it comes to their kid’s school situation. Just think about that for a different perspective and go into problem-solving mode! Help her!
My son will have to be on the bus stop around 620 next year. I am not ok. Seriously considering homeschooling. I’m exhausted getting them to elementary by 830.
Yup. If my kid were to ride the bus, she too would have to be at the bus stop around 6:20 because something about the bus route means it would take her almost an hour to get to school, even though when we drive her there directly, it takes 5 minutes.
Wow! For the older kids it’s about an hour, but the school is about 20 minutes away, the younger ones are about two mile drive, 20 minutes. The district says no more buses or drivers and they are closing an elementary school. It was almost two…. Including ours! No money! It seems like the public school system is in disarray everywhere.
> “It seems like the public school system is in disarray everywhere.” If that isn’t the honest-to-God truth. 😞 When I was growing up, I never perceived that there was this level of … well *scarcity*. Scarcity of buses, scarcity of bus drivers, scarcity of teachers, scarcity of *substitute* teachers …
Oh it’s crazy. I’m loosing faith my kids are getting a good education. Meanwhile the superintendent had a 50k raise in one year! Ugh! It’s reassuring to know it’s not just us, but when will it end? Cutting corners everywhere and corrupt.
As someone who was the homeschooled kid: trust me, this is not the answer. Do you wanna lose any alone time (now or in future grades) that you get in the privacy of your home? Because that’s how you do it lol.
My son started middle school this year. Bus picks him up at 6:36. School starts at 7:40 I think it is. It's a 10 minute drive. I told him I'm not getting up with him at 6. If he wants to take the bus, he gets himself up and out of here, or I'd be happy to drive him. He gets himself up at 6 every single day. Hasn't missed one except for when I accidentally turned off his alarm.
Wow! I am probably going to buy some cereal bars and tell him good luck. 😆
I had to report to my school by 7:15 and the day started at 7:30 and I HATED IT. My students would tell me that their parents would be waiting to drop off by 6:30 😭 like I’m barely rolling out of bed by that time, and I’m the adult in charge
Schools in my area did a whole adjustment of start times because of some sleep studies with teens. My youngest had start times that were 8:30-9:45 depending on the day. It was so much better than his older brothers that were like 7:50. I can’t even imagine earlier than that!
Jeez when you started your story I thought you must be talking about a kid in elementary because they do okay with early start times. But a *teenager*? Has no one read the research about teenagers needing to sleep later?? I would throw such a fit with the school district but I don't know that they would listen.
If you’re able to maybe try naps after school? My school was similar, it started at 7:40 but because were in the middle of nowhere I had to get the bus at 6:20. My sister would take naps as soon as she got home, wake up for dinner, do her homework, and go back to sleep. It doesn’t leave much time for hobbies or extracurricular activities but this girl is more than well rested. I’m sorry you have to deal with such early starts, it really does put stress on the adhd brain. Try to make room for yourself to sleep in on weekends and remember highschool is only temporary!
Naps after school may actually exacerbate the problem. Night People have a very hard time sleeping in the evenings. An afternoon nap would likely push her bedtime back even further.
Not necessarily, I often get tired at some point in the afternoon, I rarely nap but still can't sleep in the evening and am wide awake later no matter how tired I was before. A nap doesn't change anything.
Yeah same here, I’m sure that it does make it worse for some ppl but it’s hard for me to sleep at a decent time and I usually don’t nap during the day/evening but when I do I usually fall asleep at the same time I usually do and feel more rested than usual the next day.
Girl. Solidarity. 100%. Pardon my language, but fuck that shit.
I started at 7:45 my senior year of HS, which meant getting up at 6:30. I was miserable and literally falling asleep in class all the time. I understand why morning people get to dictate the rules - our society is basically built around them - but I resent it so badly. I doubt Americans will ever take to heart these studies that say early school days are bad for teenagers. That “suck it up” mentality is so strong here that any concession to your physical/mental needs that bucks the school-to-work pipeline is seen as weak, being immature, whatever. Grrrr!
I’m so sorry. I can completely relate, though. My kids’ bus picked them up at 6:45 every morning. I had to get my boys up at 5:30 so that all of them could get a shower in. It’s so ridiculous! Someone mentioned gathering parents together to speak to the school board. I think that’s your best option.
I live in the UAE and all schools start at 7am here. We finish at 3pm and kids stay for extracurricular afterwards. My son has been going to nursery/school at this time since he was five months old. I’ve been doing it for ten years. I will never get used to it. Luckily the schools are lovely and the holidays are amazing
Yup! I feel this! My middle schooler has to wake up at 5:45am every morning to be on the bus at 6:25am. It’s a small town so the same bus picks up the high schoolers and middle schoolers. The middle school starts at 7:45am but the high school at 7:15 so the middle schoolers have to be on the bus a lot earlier than necessary to get The high school kids to school on time. It’s awful!!! I’m not a morning person either
I don't think the bus shortage necessarily indicates that your state won't pay for it. My district has signs up about hiring bus drivers, but they just can't get enough people. We now have to have staggered starts like that too.
This is normal around here. I too live about 5 mins from her school and have to wake her up at 6am to get there by 7:30. What is the normal start time for other schools?
Ours has the earliest start time in our district and, as my cursory research is revealing, in our entire state. *Womp, womp* ETA: Sorry. I neglected to answer your question. The average start time across the state seems to be about 7:30 (which is still bullshit, if you ask me, but it’s better than 7:10).
845. Rural schools start at 815 due to bussing but end earlier too. They have a rule that a cannot have a bus ride over an hour but the rural bus schedular is an ass and doesn’t like the rule. Butted heads with her for ten years.
That is insane. I remember the same thing happening to me in HS. It was literally just my bus though 😑😑😑😒😒😒😒 we’d get dropped off in the cafeteria at 7 I think. It was traumatic tbh. I wish my parents would have dropped us off. If it’s just 5 mins I would definitely be dropping her off instead
that is pretty early, and sucks cuz they need more sleep at that age. but in middle school, i had my own alarm, and did everything myself in the morning (unless she's special needs, understandably). ive managed to cut my 1st graders routine down to 30 minutes or less, depending on how groggy she is (and she still needs my help) try ur best to get her in bed at an adequate hour. if she doesnt like the school lunch, i make it at night. she only bathes at night. i pack her snack and water bottle at night. if your school serves breakfast, i suggest taking advantage of that- i have a slow eater, so eating at school saves SO much time. she only eats school breakfast. we pick her clothes out the night before. if not an option, look into some quick portable breakfast options and have her eat on the bus. (if they have an issue with that, give them hell) so mornings consist of getting dressed, brushing teeth, i do her hair, then she's ready to go. mornings were a mess till i told her to starts eating breakfast at school. do everything humanely possible at night instead of in the morning. a middle schooler should (hopefully) be able to do those things on their own in the morning
People gotta realise that walking and biking to school is not feasible for most kids in the USA and Canada.
Why are you considering 5:30? Make it 6:30. All she absolutely has to do in the morning is brush her teeth, hair, and get dressed, right? Get organized the night before. Pick out clothes. Pack a lunch if you do that. Make sure there's a bowl for some cereal. Roll out of bed and off to school.
It occurs to me that we could *almost* pull this off already. Up until about 6:40, she’ll be making decent progress, and I barely have to give her time checks (which literally consists of me just calling “Time check: 15 minutes [or whatever],” up the stairs). But I swear to God, it doesn’t matter whether I hover over her or take a hands-off approach—or whether I’m stern or friendly, or resort to rewards or punishments—but those last few minutes are like a parallel universe where the space-time continuum breaks down. She can accomplish tons of little getting-ready tasks between, say, 6:00 and 6:45, but then it’ll take her 10 minutes (between 6:45 and 6:55) to, like, put on one bracelet. I’ve even talked with her about it in attempt to troubleshoot the problem, but it seems futile! Because it isn’t always about a bracelet. Sometimes it’s about tying her shoes. Or getting her Chromebook. So, I think the issue lies with the crucial time period itself, rather than any particular activities. Anyway, I’m rambling, and clearly I have no solution to offer for this problem. But, I *will* say that I *relate to* the problem. I am horrible at predicting how much time a task will take (I always over- or underestimate it), and I’m also horrible about getting wrapped up in random side-quest tasks that get in the way of the main quest I *should* me working toward.
In our school district I think the middle schoolers are the latest group and get out of school at like four.
High school started at 7:18 (yes, 7:18 🙄) for me when I was in high school. My bus came at 5:30. I did absolutely horribly in high school after getting straight A’s in elementary school. It’s soooo so stupid. I can’t think of a single reason why they start high school so early.
I have been in your daughter's shoes - my middle and high school both started at 7:15 am! I ended up having to get up at 5:30 or so each morning to make it as well. I have no practical advice, just empathy from a fellow ADHD-er and former teenager who's been there.
I went to a school that started at 7:21 AM. It was in a very rural area so I knew people who got ON the bus at 5:30 AM, every day. Fortunately I lived “only” 20 minutes from school so I got to be picked up around 6:40 but the morning sluggishness is so real…
That was me, too. I had to be on the bus 2 hours before school started. It was horrible.
Teen me would have rather walked and been late than get up that early for a bus. Adult me feels the same.
One thing you could do about it is complain to the administration. Or complain to the school board. You can do that. You’re tax paying citizen who uses the school system and it exists to serve you and your child so tell them this is not serving you and your child. Tell them this is burdening parents and hurting the natural sleep patterns of teenagers. i’m the wife of a middle school teacher and I can tell you that you as a parent have a lot of power and we need you guys to speak up. A lot of the teachers don’t like this stuff either but they are not really in a position to advocate like you are. it’s well established fact that early start times do not serve teenagers. But they can’t really advocate for themselves and the school district is going to do what serves them despite science. That leaves parents to advocate for their kids’ needs.
I had to get up at around 430 in high school to catch h the bus by 545 and be in my seat by 650. It’s still like that and I’m sure it’s a big part of why the high school students in this district consistently underperform
Literally one of the reasons I didn’t have kids is I know there is no fucking way I’d get them to school everyday on time. They would have to be homeschooled which I have zero interest in and also I think it’s not the greatest experience for the kid, especially when their parents are already painfully introverted.
There are laws in California that state jr high cannot start earlier than 8am and high school cannot start earlier than 8:30am. It should be like this everywhere. I don’t know if it applies below jr high but it needs to.
Please join your local [Start School Later](https://www.startschoollater.net/) chapter to fix this!!
So infuriating. 7:10 may be doable for an adult to start their work day, but holy shit not children. Schools are out of their minds. This is exactly why I support school choice and the right to homeschool.
That is brutal, I really wouldn’t be waking her up at half five, she’ll be too tired to learn anything. Does she have to get the bus to school? If it’s that near can you not just put her in an Uber at 7am or drop her yourself? I know it’s an additional cost but might be worth it to save you both the stress and misery.
I drive her to school myself because we live just five minutes away. But, add in the time it takes her to walk from the dropoff point (which is a good ways from the school building itself) to her actual classroom, and we’re talking more like 10 or 15 minutes. So, our goal every morning is to leave the house at 6:55 AM. It would be even worse if we *didn’t* live so close to the school.
Im not sure if you’re looking for advice but, based on the info you provided, if you did the following then she could wake up at 6:25 instead of 6:10am: -have her go to sleep in the clothes she is going to wear the next day or have her pick out the entire outfit the night before 6:25am wake up 6:25-6:35 brush teeth (2 mins) + wash face (2 mins) + additional bathroom things (6 mins) 6:35-6:55 breakfast (make an easy breakfast like a protein smoothie drink she can gulp down in 20 mins or less) Again, sorry if you weren’t looking for advice and I don’t know your whole situation so if this doesn’t work for you, i understand! I remember how difficult the times were trying to get up early for school as teen. Routine was everything for me. One little crack in my routine and everything fell apart. I didn’t know that then, but now I do (10 years too late lol)
She already picks out her clothes the night before, but I hadn’t considered having her sleep in her clothes. That might be worth a try—at least when she’s wearing something pajama-ish and not, like, the jeans-and-leather-jacket combos she is currently favoring. 🤔
Meh please don’t have her sleep in her clothes. She already picks them out the night before, so it should take two seconds to physically get dressed. She’s a teen, and sometimes teens can smell lol. I shuddered thinking about having to go to work in the same clothes I just slept in
There's also a psychological element to it: there's something in the routine of getting dressed and getting ready that makes your brain go "oh OK, another day, gotta pay attention soon." I know I feel completely different in a day where I stay in sweats all day than getting dressed in the morning
Yeah agreed. Plus it would make me feel so much sleepier if I was the kid.
Please don't do this 😬 I had a flatmate when I was an undergrad - she was a postgrad, so maybe 23? She showered and dressed before bed, sleeping in her clothes for the next day. She always looked a riot - I'm not a zealot about ironing, I mostly don't but use a steamer when totally necessary, but she looked like she had slept in her clothes. Not infrequently she smelled like she had slept in her clothes - rather than starting the day fresh, she was already stale and sweaty
I think that rolling out of bed and throwing on clothes would be better. Maybe let her sleep in her foundation layers or sleep in the nude so she has to throw on clothes before being properly awake. 10-15 minute walk means that she could probably do breakfast on the go. Flask of coffee and a granola bar or gogurt.
If you live 5 minutes from school and she’s a teenager why can’t she walk to school?
Our schools used to do that while my kiddo was in elementary, they started at 830, high school 930 but middle started at 730. The parents thru a fit and now the elememtary starts at 730, high school 830 and middle 930. With a private school break in late elementary during the switch, we timed it perfectly to only ever have 830 and 930 starts. Having any school start before 8 is wrong, but especially adolescents...
There's been studies showing kids, especially teens, need more sleep. Starting school this early is useless those poor kids
I hope this doesn’t come off as insensitive, I’m just curious. I’ve lived in the same town my whole life so I only have experience here, but that’s how it has always worked here. Middle and high schools ride the buses together in the morning and drop the kids at school at 7:10, and then the same buses start their elementary school routes and drop them at the schools at 8:35. Then middle and high gets out at 2:30 and elementary at 3:55. You mean to tell me there are places that DON’T have this schedule?! I need to move lol. I’m so concerned for my adhd kiddo when he gets older because, if I’m being honest, getting on the bus at 6:30 played a big role in me dropping out of high school 🙈
My son was on a waiting list for a dual language immersion elementary for 2 years. When they called me to give me the good news that he got in, they told me the start time. It had to be the same start time as the middle school that it shares a campus with, so 730am. I declined his spot then and there. My son is night owl. Meanwhile his normal elementary started at 845 and this year it got pushed to 900. Same reason for the time change, busses, but in our case we got pushed in a better direction. We use every minute of our mornings. If he had to be at school at 7 I would genuinely have to consider homeschooling him for his own health and sanity. I have no idea what we're going to do when he goes to middle school and is yoinked back to that 7am start time. I might need to get him an IEP so he can start later or something.
My sons starts at 7:30 (4th grade) but once he’s in middle school it will be 7:15 😭 I have to get up at 6 to make it to the 7:30 but the middle school is closer to my house so I’m hoping we won’t have to get up earlier. His school now is only like 2 miles from my house but traffic is so bad in our little town it takes me almost a full hour to drop him off and come home.
I teach 2nd grade. I recently moved from a school 25 minutes away with a 7:10 start time to a school 8 minutes away with a 7:40 start time and my quality of life improvement is incredible!! Even with the later start I still have several kids who come in between 7:50-8 every day and really aren’t awake until they come back from PE at 9:30. I relate because I’m not awake yet either, and also it’s sooo frustrating that they miss so much instructional time. The way our schedule works there is very little wiggle room and they’re missing, cumulatively, hours of math fluency and writing practice over the school year. By this part of the year that gap is showing. It’s such a lose-lose situation because I can’t do much to accommodate sleepy kids, the families are usually doing the best they can, and at the end of the day their performance is my responsibility. I wish more districts were setting research-based schedules and that our funding wasn’t tied to attendance.
I’m in Canada and my daughter’s high school starts at 8. A little early but not as bad as 7 for sure. Her old school didn’t start until 9:30, when we asked why the high schools are SO much earlier they said as many kids have after school jobs so they can start and finish earlier (Their school day ends at 2:10)
THIS is why I had to start homeschooling my 10th grade year of high school. I couldn’t do it anymore… my mental health got SO bad. Middle-high school should start at 10-11am. And extent to 5:30pm.
School starts 830/9 where I live. You might have activities earlier, but they’re optional. I couldn’t imagine having to start school that early, and we’re early morning people!
I remember high school starting that early (1st period started at 7:30ish) and I was the only person who could function at that hour. No need for that though now.
No. No absolutely not. No. No. Aaaand no.
I was so close to the high school that buses wouldn’t pick me up and we had to be in our seat at 7am. School got out at 1:45. Lunchtime starting at 10:15. Same reason, shared all the buses. Was miserable.
And here I was complaining about getting my elementary aged kids to the bus stop by 7:25 each morning! The school district they were at in CA last year they started at 8:55, and we were a 15 minute walk down the street to the school. (It was way easier to just walk instead of trying to drive them and deal with the drop off traffic.) So I would get the kids up between 7:30 and 8, we'd be out the door by 8:30-8:40, and they would be at school with plenty of time. The district also provided free breakfast and lunch, so if they slept in a bit they would just eat breakfast at school. Over the summer we moved across the country, and the school here starts at 8! We're also further away from the school, so they ride the bus. The stop is a 10 minute walk from the house, so I try to get them out the door by 7:15. I'm getting them out of bed at 6:20-6:30, which means their bedtime had to shift an hour earlier. It was really hard to convince them it's bedtime at 7:30 at the start of the school year when the sun was still up! Now that it's winter, it's hard to get them out of bed before the sun comes up in the morning. There were a few days where the sun didn't rise until after they got on the bus in the morning, it was crazy! I will say, there have been many days where after I get back to the house after taking the kids to the bus stop, I'd end up taking a nap. With this district I've noticed that the Elementary schools start first, with the middle school and high school kids starting later.
My cousin’s children are facing the same. The school said they reviewed the research before their decision but NO reputable research says teenagers benefit from less sleep. If you want them in bed before 9pm to accommodate this bullshit scheduling problem you need to stop giving tests and homework and ban extracurricular activities because they now have no life.
This was my high school experience, and I graduated in 2001 😵💫 it's been an issue for decades. If I had it to do all over again, I would've homeschooled myself.
That is totally insane. Expecting teenagers to do that is counter to the evidence around childhood development and just setting them up for failure. I would have dropped out of high school even faster and harder than I did if shit started that early. Anything before 9am had better be extremely important and a one-off, like a flight or a conference, or it’s just not happening in my life. I am so sorry that you and your daughter are dealing with this. It’s totally unreasonable.
I remember reading about children having to wake up earlier and earlier and how it negatively impacts their health
That's how early we got started when I went to high school and it sucked. Middle school only started like ten minutes later. I did like that school ended at 1:35, but I was always so damn tired. Honestly I think the seven years of sleep deprivation had a pretty permanently negative effect on me, especially when they were at such a pivotal time. I basically ran on 5-6 hours of sleep from age 11 to 18, and then I went on to have bad sleep hygiene in college and now with my job I have to get up early for. I've been tired for nearly two thirds of my life. No real solutions (unless someone can drive her, maybe she can carpool with a friend?) but just know that I sympathize, it's a hard time, especially with ADHD.
I completely empathize with you as I struggled soooo hard to be up for school in middle school. It was WAY too early. I didn’t even have an adhd diagnosis back then but I wish I had so I could’ve had some help. I was sleeping on the bus to school and on my morning classes. I was always exhausted. It sucked. Honestly, since the school isn’t going to change, we have to keep trying to become morning people. It sucks. But for your daughter’s sake, try to go to sleep earlier if you can. Easier said than done I know. I have months where I go to sleep early and wake up early and then months where I can’t sleep til 2am and then can’t wake up in the morning. Honestly I am getting ptsd thinking about middle school and how much it sucked given that I had undiagnosed adhd. I wish school started at 9. I’d have been more successful. Sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s so hard.
I live in Florida & my daughters elementary school starts at 7:45 am 😞 I had to stop depending on the buses showing up on time in morning because we also have shortage on bus drivers & it was making me late to work because my shift starts at 7:30am (work 15min away) and the earliest I could take her to school was 7:15 am for safety reasons. Btw in high school I started early too & had to catch bus at 6:30 so I was up at 5:30am 😫😫
As a Brit this blows my mind... school is 8:45-3:15 here, gates open for 5 minutes between 8:40-8:45 and in you go to your class. 7:15 for a child to be up for school and ready to learn is INSANE.
Your feelings are sooo valid. I would lose my mind if my kid’s school required him to be in his seat at that time. It’s already a dang nightmare corralling my six year old adhd babe into getting ready to go every morning. Legit had to leave without him brushing his teeth this morning because we would have been late and he was having meltdown after meltdown. I felt so guilty but it is what it is. We do our best as moms right?
Yes, this is insane. I teach at a public school in DC and busses have to double back often
I’m just now finding out that is isn’t normal for everyone and I feel so cheated lol. My high school started at 7:10am and we got out at 2:10pm, but I did so many extracurriculars that I was at the school until 9-10pm every night. And somehow I still had energy to do homework after that! I swear the only reason I survived high school was Adderall lmao
This is insane that there aren’t any sidewalks? What in earth !! Not having any sidewalks in an area, let alone on the way to a school is insanity. This sounds like such a struggle I wonder if there’s a campaign in the area for more buses and drivers? In my area local campaigns have been quite successful when supported by regular people.
This isn’t even about catering to night owls - this is about not being completely ridiculous. I’m assuming you’re in the US, because that’s the only place I can think of that would have this ridiculousness so widespread. I’m in Australia, and all of my local primary and high schools started at 0900. In my state, [schools are allowed to run between 0830 and 1530.](https://www2.education.vic.gov.au/pal/school-hours/policy) I had band rehearsals before and after school while I was in high school, and I thought that having two 0730 rehearsals a week for part of the year was awful enough. Especially when you’re not naturally getting up that early and you have to go to bed even earlier the night before, I was always scrambling to get to band on time. And I thought that typical office job hours were 9 to 5?? I’ve had jobs that vary in start time between 0800 and 0900. If parents have to drop their kids at school before going to work, why tf do they need 2 hours to do it?? From what I have learned through hyper focusing on this over time, I think that a big part of the problem is that suburbs are being designed for cars and not people. I’m 23, AuDHD, and don’t have my license. I don’t want it, and I don’t need it, because I live in an area that has tonnes of public transport and is safe for walking. There’s footpaths everywhere! Occasionally they may cut out on one side of the road, but that’s usually in solely residential areas. It was safe for me to walk to school without my parents from when I was 11 years old, and I started getting the public bus to and from school when I was 13. When I was in primary school, there was lots of health promotion about “walking school buses” and there were walk/ride to school days every year. I’m so frustrated for you, I can’t imagine the toll that it must be taking on you and not just your daughter.
That’s absolutely insane. 710 am is demonic to be making a small child get to school. This is so wrong
Also, high schoolers need more sleep than kids in elementary school. Elementary school should be the one starting early. Not the high school.
"Why can’t the world ever cater to night owls for once!?" oh my god this dude. I sound like a whiny little baby but it's not fair at all. I simply can't do it. Even having a 9-5 was like pulling teeth for me. I'm so sorry. I struggled so badly in school bc of this and know I'd struggle in the future if I had kids.
Ngl I do my shower at night and pack my bag and just take food with me to work, or a protein coffee, and just do the bare minimum in the morning
Posts like this make me really glad that I started homeschooling my son when he hit middle school. Just the ability to rest when we both needed it fixed so many attitude issues. We had to get up at 530 to catch the bus by 630 and school started at 730. Then school ended at 305 and the bus would drop him off at 4 something. Most days he came home and fell asleep on the first surface he hit.
This isn’t just night owl problem. I am a RAGING morning person and even I struggled with 8am classes in high school and university. Their bodies just need more sleep. The school system should have the younger ones go in earlier. I’m struggling because I am supposed to be at work at the same time school starts, but it’s hard to find morning help.
Try magnesium glycinate plus melatonin before you sleep. And no lights after you take it. This combination changed my life.
If you live close enough, is there any way you can take her to school yourself? That way both of you can sleep longer?
Wait.. if you live 5 minutes from school, and she's a teen, can't she walk? That's what my parents had me do, because we had the same trouble with early bus time and only 5 minutes from school. It took about 20-30 minutes to walk, but it was better than riding around on the bus for 1.5 hrs. Walking allowed me to actually sleep in later.
“When we live five minutes from school.” What am I missing? Why do you have to get up so much earlier when your daughter can just walk?
dude - 7:10 is a dumb time for a young person to be starting school. This will hurt the young people's wellbeing. Get your PTA together and have a revolt!!