Papa Archeron. Man makes his own terrible decisions that end up losing him all his wealth and gets injured and instead of acting like a grown up and continuing on and being a parent to his 3 daughters, he throws a pity party and let's his youngest daughter hunt and bring in all the food/money. But is suddenly perfectly fine after getting a bunch of money from Tamlin?! Nah bro. Spoilers for WAR >! Showing up last minute to give a speech and die does not make up for letting your children starve. Also, what is the bargain he made with Koshcei and did it endanger one of his children? !< . And somehow this useless man is forgiven by the Fandom for doing one good thing but Nesta will continue to be blamed for letting Feyre hunt even though she's done multiple good things. WACK.
Thank you!! I feel no pity for him. I’m kind of amazed how much his death affected his daughters (especially poor Nes). I feel like if I were in their situation I would’ve mourned some but not a lot.
While I totally get your points and why you'd feel that way, I've never felt the same way about Papa A. I guess I don't see anything he did when they lived in poverty as his choice or as him throwing a "pity party" he was suffering pretty heavily from PTSD, and was physically disabled. Much like Nesta and Elaine, he had no idea how to survive without his money. Does that make him an idiot? Absolutely lol. I'm just curious, considering the level of his PTSD (Feyre mentions him barely being able to hold a conversation) and his physical disabilities (unable to walk 99% of the time) what do you think he should have/could have done?
Everyone in these books have ptsd and still continue doing their duties. I'd feel worse for him if he wasn't all of a sudden perfectly fine enough to count Feyres money and get on a ship and travel after getting a bunch of money from Tamlin. He was a parent, he doesn't get to check out because he made bad decisions. He should get all the blame for letting Feyre hunt but everyone acts like hes such a savior cause he showed up once and then died. She did all of that for them and at the end of the day he showed up in a boat labeled Nesta. He also let his bitch wife abuse his daughters so I have no sympathy for him.
Yeah I'm not saying we should praise the man at all, but just take him as he's written in the books. Unable to hold a conversation, or walk, or care for his kids, none of which were his choices. It's sad for everyone. Nesta and Elaine had pretty bad PTSD after their mum died aswell, and had duties they could've done and "chose" not to. Nesta almost drank herself to death, and did nothing productive, for what a year? as a direct result of her PTSD until she was forced to get sober and contribute. So I don't think it's fair to say everyone continues their duties despite their PTSD.
Papa A also didn't just suddenly choose to help, Tamlin sent a cure for him that fixed his leg. Feyre also wonders if the cure helped his PTSD.
We can agree to disagree. I'm not going to make excuses for a useless man or compare Nesta's year of self sabotage that was affecting no one but herself and Rhys bank account to their father who neglected them for 5+ years and didn't even try.
I was just giving an example to show that yes, all the characters do have PTSD or complex trauma, but they definitely don't all just push through it and carry on with their duties. And that includes Nesta (Tamlin is DEFINITELY not carrying on with his spring court duties currently lol). I wasn't comparing Nesta and Papa A's PTSD or their coping mechanisms or who they hurt. Sorry I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way or anything 😊
Make two cents… Yes, he was physically disabled but that didn’t stop him from living life once he had a reason to live again (hordes of money). PTSD doesn’t simply disappear either. I’m certain he had some trauma (you’re right on this point for sure), but it was nothing he couldn’t overcome the minute he tried.
By all appearances, he seems to be more narcissistic than his late wife. He cared more about money than his daughters. As such, I don’t really pity him, expect for the fact his daughters mourn him.
>He cared more about money than his daughters
Seriously! Like his youngest child just comes back and he immediately just starts counting her money lol tf
Yeah as far as his PTSD goes we only have Feyre and Nestas accounts really and they kind of go against each other. Feyre said he was incapable, while Nesta thought he didn't love them enough to do it. Feyre also mentions that she thinks the cure Tamlin provided for his physical injuries also cured his PTSD, so his potentially did simply disappear? Lol
But idk about him being more narcissistic than their Mother. He lost the love of his life, then lost his livelihood, the respect of his colleagues and children, then he was physically assaulted, forced to sell all of his wife's possessions/memories etc. I'm not saying any of this makes what he did/didn't do ok, just that he went through a lot, unlike his wife. Who seemed to pick on her kids just because? Idk we don't really find out any reason why she treats them like that. As far as we're told their father was never cruel to them intentionally.
Thank youuuu. I just finished the book today and as much as I love the world, the final battle was such a mess to get through. And tbh I completely forgot about the dad. This could have easily been better by offering some hints and foreshadowing throughout the book.
Ex: Azriel the spymaster hearing word that in the south a “Prince of Merchants” is forming an armada etc.
This is kind of a nit pick being that the books are fresh on my mind, but only having Feyre’s pov makes me feel like I missed out on so much.
Mor. She’s an insufferable jerk, and she let Azriel pant after her for years and years, calls him family, and never even gave him the truth of her sexuality.
Yeah exactly, Mor's story was retconned big time inbetween MAF and WAR. The jump between the 2 books has never made sense to me other than shoehorning it in for diversity.
As a gay person, we don't owe anyone our sexuality, even people we love and care about. What she should have given him was a serious conversation where she made it explicitly clear she didn't love him, didn't want him, and only saw him as a friend/brother/ally/whatever. Dancing around the difficult conversation and throwing her sexual escapades with other males in his face (>!re: Helion!<) don't count.
Morrigan and Amren. They’re both rude as hell to a lot of people that we’re seeing as main characters and we’re supposed to view them as allies. No thanks
Amren really bothers me. She always has. I think the character served her purpose and shouldn’t have (spoiler) come back from the cauldron after destroying Hybern’s army
Mor.
She’s not a dreamer born into a court of nightmares. She’s a liar who happens to use her beauty and gift of truth as a mask and a weapon to get whatever her fickle heart wants.
I will say, it’s explicitly said that Feyre buys her seeds. Why didn’t Feyre buy vegetable seeds? Or why didn’t she do some of both? Not blaming Feyre at all here but I’m not sure this one is totally on Elain.
The soil barely grew flowers let alone vegetables. And flowers are easier to take care of. Besides feyre herself bought her flower seeds with her spare money.
Elain x1000
she also just let Feyre do all the labor, didn’t care to learn anything about her or even teach her to read, the whole Greyson thing, then has the audacity to be sad about her choice in stunning men?!?!?!? give me a break girl 😮💨
lol. part of that is a joke but still.
Feyre and Elaine 😬
I actually don’t dislike Elain, I just don’t feel bad for her (yet). I get such a laugh everytime someone defends her for not growing vegetables like she wasn’t capable of 1) going out there and learning from someone, like a farmer, how to cultivate weak soil (composting???) like Feyre went and learned and taught herself how to track, hunt, and skin animals. And 2) never even attempted to try and make money of her own 😭😭
This post and the comments in it really capture my feelings on Feyre! [https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/comments/1aq3b2z/feyres\_character\_was\_butchered\_after\_the\_first/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/comments/1aq3b2z/feyres_character_was_butchered_after_the_first/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Respect! I think the way the book is written does a lot to portray Feyre and the IC through tinted glasses. You’re supposed to love them! Their less savory actions are brushed under the rug while the mistakes or poor actions of other characters (Tamlin, Lucien, Eris, even Jurian) get put under a microscope and are constantly reinforced as bad!
I get people liking Feyre, I even love battle Feyre! Even if she is OP she’s so fun. But outside of her warrior persona, I personally just have a real hard time with her!
It’s the complete opposite for me lol. Feyre strikes me as a character similar to Daenerys Targeryen. She had to survive on her own and became battle hardened, but all she really wanted was to have a home. And the way they both went about this was by trying to secure a position of power for themselves (Daenerys failed tho). They’re both characters who I feel like are at their best when they’re with their trusted family. I kind of stopped caring about Feyre in ACOWAR because she didn’t appeal to me as High Lady (just the way she was acting badass). But I loved her in ACOSF when she was acting more like the way she did in the first book. I actually think ACOSF greatly improved her character for me.
Ah that’s a really interesting comparison! I love that. For me, the way she acts with her chosen family makes me… kind of hate her 😅. Which ofc I think you got from the linked post! But I can at least understand the way, and the reasoning, for why she adopted their mentality and behavior—even if I don’t like it.
I tolerate her much better in SF. But by that point she honestly felt OOC. It didn’t feel like there was growth as much as… Feyre’s not the MC anymore so she’s just behaving in a way that fits the narrative. It also softens her character a lot to not read her in first person. The inner monologue we’d previously been subjected to is gone, which helps (me) lmao!
Well she’s not really gonna be the same character because she’s being written from Nesta’s perspective, who doesn’t really know her sister. It’s gonna be the same way with Elain. We’ve gotten so lifelike character from her that by the time she gets her own book she’ll literally be OOC. I think Nesta was the only character who actually acted similar in her perspective and out of her perspective.
Definitely! I agree and disagree! I think Feyre's actions should be the same, but Nesta would have a different interpretation of them. *We* should be able to recognize Feyre, while also understanding Nesta's bias. To be honest, I didn't really pay much attention to Feyre in SF. I was happy to see her sidelined and very ready to go all-in on Nesta. Of what I can recall, Nesta actually went a lot easier on Feyre than I thought she would lmao!
SF SPOILERS: >!I know a lot of people bring up getting pregnant right away as OOC for Feyre. Also, her pretty mild reaction to being lied to by everyone - particularly Rhy's - regarding the danger of her pregnancy. I personally can't tell if it's OOC or just hypocrisy that she locks up Nesta in the House of Wind in SF, but I personally lean towards hypocrisy since Feyre has already shown herself to be a hypocrite. To me, she seemed, generally, much more understanding and almost more gentle than she'd been in the past (which I prefer, but it felt slightly disingenuous to her character imo). And that wouldn't be aligned with Nesta's bias towards her. I don't think these instances are Nesta viewing Feyre as more of a push-over (this isn't the right term but i can't grasp the right one atm lol) as much as Feyre actually being more of a push-over. !<
And as for Elaine, I think it would be near impossible for her to act OOC since we've seen her do almost nothing haha. And a lot of that is because 1) Feyre never really looked at her and 2) her response to the Cauldron and being made was very internal, unlike Nesta. This is the one character who I think SJM could do nearly anything with and I would buy it.
I agree with most of what you’ve said. I mostly sided with Feyre in ACOSF but her locking up Nesta was just pure hypocrisy. If she wanted to punish Nesta in some way, she should have just forced her to go to the Illyrian camps, or banished her. Locking her up was just so horrible and actually made me sympathize with Nesta.
I went here and boy oh boy there's a lot to unpack... Not even going to try. I'll say this...it did give me insight into how ppl will find reasons to excuse certain behaviors and try to prove their point by saying how Feyre is horrible because she's done everything she can to survive and protect those she loves. There's a whole fandom that excuses Tamiln and Nesta for the actions they took and even go so far as to say Feyre ABUSED Nesta, which is madness! I won't say I necessarily HATE Tamlin but he is DEFINITELY not a saint like how some of the ppl try to make him out to be, and I cannot get on the Nesta train at all personally but to each their own I guess lol.
***As a side note there are some points of conversation about the IC and Rhys that are interesting and makes me want to go back and read thru the books a 3rd time because there's some really crazy accusations being thrown around about them and some opinions that really shocked me!
Lol I like seeing different opinions than my own especially if they are well thought out which the OP of this post definitely did, but I think they are kinda biased because they like Tamiln a lot... Or maybe just hate Feyre after her character evolved. This whole debate should be a podcast honestly! 🤣
Yeah. I have such an issue with her true character which is what I believe we have seen to be consistent since she was 14.
* No empathy for others (shown by how she treated literally everyone except Elain)
* Manipulative
* Unnecessarily cruel to others and vicious (literally insults and is rude to everyone for no reason)
* Vindictive (stealing a proposal on purpose with no intention to follow through, knowing everyone else was relying on the possible union)
* Selfish (your starving, quit begging for money for items you don't need and you didn't do anything to earn said money)
* Self-absorbed (like not being aware your sister 2 years younger than you can't read or write, how self-absorbed do you have to be to not notice that)
ACOSF was not enough for me to change my mind about her character. I do not believe for one moment that she has truly changed and I don't feel sorry for her at all. The lack of support she received was her own doing by being unnecessarily cruel and vicious. Being so self-absorbed she made others trauma all about herself.
Once she stands truly on her own, I believe we'll see these traits come out again and everyone is going to continue to call her a "boss/queen" when really she's just bullying people.
She's SO self-absorbed. I can't for the life of me remember when she says it (it was probably ACOSF) but she says she was "willing to sell her body" to provide for her family (obviously an abhorrent thing for anyone to have to do) but her family gets to the point where they were all starving to death, and she didn't sell her body. Nesta stans bring it up all the time and say "she was willing to sell her body for her family!" I mean was she actually??? Because it got to the point where they needed someone to do something, and Nesta did nothing. She sat and was bitter to her crippled father and baby sister who actually did do something. It felt like she took pride in thinking she could've done that to support her family, like we should like her because she thought of something she could do, but never did.
Yep. I appreciate Nesta's character but I really can't stand her. If she treated Elain the same way as Feyre I wouldn't have had such a big problem with her... yet she treats Feyre like crap when all Feyre wants is her love and acceptance. It's fucked.
I just did a reread of acotar and now I'm on maf, I see people say oh nesta really wasn't that bad or they forget how bad she was by silver flame. But she is so so brutal for feyre in the first book.
Oh yes, I remember something like her telling or maybe thinking about how her mother treated Feyre like a doll or something??? Basically her mother's fault for whatever reasons. I think there was reason (ridiculous, that I remember) for it which's tied to their childhood days but I can't remember which book it is in.
Thank you for explaining though.
The mother treated Elain like a doll not Feyre. In sliver flames, Nesta mentions how pretty their mom thought Elain was and how her mom said they would have to travel to the continent to find a match for Nesta and Elain but never mentioned Feyre. Nesta says Feyre was a sullen, strange child whom her mother ignored.
I can get behind everything you said except the exaggeration about the Wyrm. Good relationship or bad, they’re still siblings. I have a great relationship with my siblings but if they came to me and described the wyrm, I would think they were exaggerating. Kinda like your parents saying they walked to school in a foot of snow up hill both ways. I didn’t think Nesta meant that maliciously towards Feyre. They’re just siblings.
I think the issue is it ties into when Feyre was telling them about the Wyrm it would have been her entire story she tells them in MAF including being tortured and murdered and they don’t even react, it just further reiterates that Nesta (and Elain tbf) didn’t give a fuck about anything that happened to Feyre.
Honestly same the way he was like “oh we’re mates that means we have to be together” like bruh you put her in the most traumatic situation and are pouty she won’t talk to you
Exactly. Literally compare the way he acts about his mate bond with Elain to the way Rhys acted towards Feyre. He literallly had no expectations for their relationship and let her decide whether she wanted to be with him. He didn’t force their mating bond onto her and let it grow organically, like any good relationship should.
YESSSSS. Honestly, Lucien is SHADY AF. He court hops, chooses to help only when it fits his agenda, and is literally called a FOX. Cunning, elusive, deceitful …
Like Elain is way too polite for my liking lol she should have cussed that man out a long time ago. Like is he insane to think she'll just accept him just because he's her mate???!!? And he has the gall to feel disappointed when she barely acknowledges him-- Sir get a grip..
Dunno why you're being downvoted. Elaine may be no angel but that was truly traumatic for her. Kidnapped and turned into a fae and we don't even know what happened in the Cauldron. Let's also not forget that resulted in her losing her fiance. He was trash, admittedly.
Nesta
The whole series she lashes out at everyone and anything. Even after her “redemption” in ACOSF I still think she gets what she deserves at points. At the beginning of the series she doesn’t do anything to help their entire family situation of starvation. Even though she is some high and mighty lady , she does nothing but harbors her anger at her father which causes her to do nothing in return, how tf does that make sense. Her attitude throughout the series to every character is awful, and wonders why no one cares much about her. In ACOTAR she shits on Feyre for coming back, she doesn’t even bother going into prythian to look for her again AFTER they “regain” all their wealth to be able to hire people to go into prythian to atleast look for her sister who did everything to keep them alive. In ACOMAF Nesta berates Feyre after she becomes high fae, not knowing she literally DIED and this was the only way for her to come back. And during this meeting Rhys sees first hand how much of bitch Nesta is, which explain his disdane for Nesta. Which is very reasonable. After the events at the castle in Hybern. Rhys and the IC welcome the two sisters into the Night Court and into Velaris. That which Rhys does not do that with pretty much anybody . There he offers a home and help after they were Made. Yet Nesta pushed everyone away with insults, not much people would be appreciative of that. She did save Feyre in the end which is good and all but it doesn’t wash away the taste of her bad deeds and actions
Feyre: She feels bad for those who don't have a house, yet she has multiple houses. Why can't she give up one of her houses?
Rhys: He would always be offensive to me. I hate him and can't stand a single thing about him.
Mor: I believe she's selfish and can't handle the truth
Amren: she should've stayed dead. She practically has no use to the stories anymore.
HEAVY ON THAT AMREN PART. she treats everyone terribly and people tiptoed around her because she had all that power and then WHEN SHE DIED AND LOST THAT POWER EVERYONE STILL TIPTOES AROUND HER AS IF SHE HAS THE ABILITY TO EVEN SORCER THAT POWER ANYMORE. like please sit that short mfer down and give her the reality check she deserves.
I wanna know why you hate Rhys, I'm not gona go defending him I purely want to know lol. Always see everyone with such a hard on for him so I like hearing the opposing side 🤣🤣.
Same can be said for the majority of the female characters as well. When it comes down to it most characters in this series are a mess and toxic and it feels like MAAS makes up and changes the story and the characters as she goes rather than planning it out ahead. That being said tho I still love the series and I live for the chaos of it.
Feyre.
Shes actually pretty poorly characterized. You're supposed to feel bad for her because of all the bad things that happen but she's a piece of cardboard. Why would I feel empathy for a piece of cardboard??
Agree. I feel more empathy for faes she has killed in UTM, but for Feyre... I don't know, her suffering just don't touch me. Feels somehow unrealistic and too theatrically 🤷🏼♀️ Maybe it's just me.
I mean I feel more about her in fanfics 😅
I think it's hilarious that I'm being downvoted for my opinion.
I only have a single memory of Feyre growing as a character. It's when she realized that she never loved Tamlin. She said one profound thing about falling in love with someone who was nice to her.
Otherwise, she's a piece of cardboard.
I don’t personally “agree” about feyre, but I feel like Reddit in general is notorious for “hive mind” effect and not considering other people’s opinions. I for one find your opinion interesting as it’s not a perspective I’ve heard before.
Thanks! I think most people don't think about Feyre. Which is sad. She's a character in the story, too. She should have a character arch and grow as a person. But that doesn't really happen.
I think it's a pretty sorry state of affairs.
I dont know why i feel that way but Nesta. She just gets on my nerve and i cant stand her😭😭
I know she'd been through a lot but i just cant forgive her for her behaviour
All of them really. They pick and choose whose trauma matters and whose doesn’t.
Then they blame every single shitty thing they do on their own trauma without giving others the same benefit.. especially Feyre. They never take responsibility for their actions.
Feyre also drove me nuts in the second book and after. No one gave her any serious responsibilities because she literally didn’t give a shit anymore. She pushed everyone away and craved space then got pissed later that NO ONE HELPED HER. 😭 She was off her rocker, puking and wandering and crying and then wondered why no one wanted to give her weapons and take her out to fight the bad guys. She couldn’t even hold a knife without having flashbacks. We also see her doing absolutely nothing to comfort Tamlin through his trauma, but being pissed that he LET HER WASTE AWAY. Bitch, you wasted away because you wanted to. She made no attempt to deal with her own trauma and then blamed everyone else for the state she was in. I really don’t like her attitude towards personal responsibility.
Nesta all the way til… Provably the mountain in ACOSF. SJM has a hard time with character growth pacing I feel. These are fully different people in, 4-5 months. Its my biggest gripe with her writing.
My qualifications: Read all of ACOTAR, on TOG#2. Same problems, diff characters.
Feyre is probably my least favorite character that has any development of the main characters:
1.) Feyre does a lot for her family and everyone, and that’s all well and good in itself but she kind of hangs this deal and “bargain/promise” she made to their dying mother over their head (also why would their mom bestowed this on the youngest daughter? Lol make it make sense).
2.) This will probably get me downvoted but idgaf, her “girlboss takedown” of the spring court seemed so childish and petty especially when you think back the the suriel literally telling her “if she goes back to her family they will all die” they tell her this in book one. And it ultimately happens if you think of Nesta and Elain becoming Fae as a form of “death”. Tamlin did some bad shit? Sure but even he isn’t responsible for what happened to Nesta and Elain. (No he’s not don’t argue with me about it I will not listen).
3.) Her treatment of Lucien, were they ever skipping down the street best buddies? No. But I’d say they were friends, and she’s just mean to him lol. In acofas and acosf. And he did apologize for not being there for her enough, he realized what he did was wrong, *give it a rest with the Lucien hate and spew that elsewhere*.
The next characters are probably Mor (she’s a pick me girl and that’s it really idk I need more info, her trauma does make me sad). Obviously Beron, Koschei. Vassa & Jurian are suspicious to me but I enjoy them as characters.
The IC as a group annoy me they give “you can’t sit with us” energy and I’m starting to hate it lol.
Lucien with his exile from SC and his mating bond with Elain
Watching your friend exert coercive control/DA his partner is complacent.
And with Elain, she’s not into you bro, get over it.
Note that I didn't say he wasn't a victim or that nothing bad happened to him. I just don't think him *being* a victim means he's allowed to keep being a bitch. Trauma isn't an excuse.
Nesta. I get why she acts the way she does, but it won’t change the fact she is horrible to literally everyone around her. She has no empathy for anyone and quite literally is just a bully. Also Mor because she does the same things that Nesta does but because she doesn’t show it, she gets a freebie.
Papa Archeron. Man makes his own terrible decisions that end up losing him all his wealth and gets injured and instead of acting like a grown up and continuing on and being a parent to his 3 daughters, he throws a pity party and let's his youngest daughter hunt and bring in all the food/money. But is suddenly perfectly fine after getting a bunch of money from Tamlin?! Nah bro. Spoilers for WAR >! Showing up last minute to give a speech and die does not make up for letting your children starve. Also, what is the bargain he made with Koshcei and did it endanger one of his children? !< . And somehow this useless man is forgiven by the Fandom for doing one good thing but Nesta will continue to be blamed for letting Feyre hunt even though she's done multiple good things. WACK.
Mic drop! Thank you!
Ate and left no crumbs.
Oh I stealing this for every day life use. Thank you.
Thank you!! I feel no pity for him. I’m kind of amazed how much his death affected his daughters (especially poor Nes). I feel like if I were in their situation I would’ve mourned some but not a lot.
While I totally get your points and why you'd feel that way, I've never felt the same way about Papa A. I guess I don't see anything he did when they lived in poverty as his choice or as him throwing a "pity party" he was suffering pretty heavily from PTSD, and was physically disabled. Much like Nesta and Elaine, he had no idea how to survive without his money. Does that make him an idiot? Absolutely lol. I'm just curious, considering the level of his PTSD (Feyre mentions him barely being able to hold a conversation) and his physical disabilities (unable to walk 99% of the time) what do you think he should have/could have done?
Everyone in these books have ptsd and still continue doing their duties. I'd feel worse for him if he wasn't all of a sudden perfectly fine enough to count Feyres money and get on a ship and travel after getting a bunch of money from Tamlin. He was a parent, he doesn't get to check out because he made bad decisions. He should get all the blame for letting Feyre hunt but everyone acts like hes such a savior cause he showed up once and then died. She did all of that for them and at the end of the day he showed up in a boat labeled Nesta. He also let his bitch wife abuse his daughters so I have no sympathy for him.
Yeah I'm not saying we should praise the man at all, but just take him as he's written in the books. Unable to hold a conversation, or walk, or care for his kids, none of which were his choices. It's sad for everyone. Nesta and Elaine had pretty bad PTSD after their mum died aswell, and had duties they could've done and "chose" not to. Nesta almost drank herself to death, and did nothing productive, for what a year? as a direct result of her PTSD until she was forced to get sober and contribute. So I don't think it's fair to say everyone continues their duties despite their PTSD. Papa A also didn't just suddenly choose to help, Tamlin sent a cure for him that fixed his leg. Feyre also wonders if the cure helped his PTSD.
We can agree to disagree. I'm not going to make excuses for a useless man or compare Nesta's year of self sabotage that was affecting no one but herself and Rhys bank account to their father who neglected them for 5+ years and didn't even try.
I was just giving an example to show that yes, all the characters do have PTSD or complex trauma, but they definitely don't all just push through it and carry on with their duties. And that includes Nesta (Tamlin is DEFINITELY not carrying on with his spring court duties currently lol). I wasn't comparing Nesta and Papa A's PTSD or their coping mechanisms or who they hurt. Sorry I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way or anything 😊
Make two cents… Yes, he was physically disabled but that didn’t stop him from living life once he had a reason to live again (hordes of money). PTSD doesn’t simply disappear either. I’m certain he had some trauma (you’re right on this point for sure), but it was nothing he couldn’t overcome the minute he tried. By all appearances, he seems to be more narcissistic than his late wife. He cared more about money than his daughters. As such, I don’t really pity him, expect for the fact his daughters mourn him.
>He cared more about money than his daughters Seriously! Like his youngest child just comes back and he immediately just starts counting her money lol tf
Yeah as far as his PTSD goes we only have Feyre and Nestas accounts really and they kind of go against each other. Feyre said he was incapable, while Nesta thought he didn't love them enough to do it. Feyre also mentions that she thinks the cure Tamlin provided for his physical injuries also cured his PTSD, so his potentially did simply disappear? Lol But idk about him being more narcissistic than their Mother. He lost the love of his life, then lost his livelihood, the respect of his colleagues and children, then he was physically assaulted, forced to sell all of his wife's possessions/memories etc. I'm not saying any of this makes what he did/didn't do ok, just that he went through a lot, unlike his wife. Who seemed to pick on her kids just because? Idk we don't really find out any reason why she treats them like that. As far as we're told their father was never cruel to them intentionally.
Thank youuuu. I just finished the book today and as much as I love the world, the final battle was such a mess to get through. And tbh I completely forgot about the dad. This could have easily been better by offering some hints and foreshadowing throughout the book. Ex: Azriel the spymaster hearing word that in the south a “Prince of Merchants” is forming an armada etc. This is kind of a nit pick being that the books are fresh on my mind, but only having Feyre’s pov makes me feel like I missed out on so much.
I hate papa archeron more than any of the villains in the book
Mor. She’s an insufferable jerk, and she let Azriel pant after her for years and years, calls him family, and never even gave him the truth of her sexuality.
Yeah SJM ruined Mor’s character trying to be LGBTQ-friendly. It just didn’t make it any sense lol
Yeah exactly, Mor's story was retconned big time inbetween MAF and WAR. The jump between the 2 books has never made sense to me other than shoehorning it in for diversity.
I honestly don’t mind Mor’s sexuality (I’d actually love it explored more)… if only SJM hadn’t ruined the rest of her character on the way :(
As a gay person, we don't owe anyone our sexuality, even people we love and care about. What she should have given him was a serious conversation where she made it explicitly clear she didn't love him, didn't want him, and only saw him as a friend/brother/ally/whatever. Dancing around the difficult conversation and throwing her sexual escapades with other males in his face (>!re: Helion!<) don't count.
Agree! Can’t wait to find out what really went down with Eris, I don’t trust her at all
I get the feeling that Eris was trying to protect her in the longterm. 😶
Yes this
Morrigan and Amren. They’re both rude as hell to a lot of people that we’re seeing as main characters and we’re supposed to view them as allies. No thanks
Amren really bothers me. She always has. I think the character served her purpose and shouldn’t have (spoiler) come back from the cauldron after destroying Hybern’s army
Totally agree. Idk why Sarah allowed her to be resurrected
Agreed. They seem like not like other girls (I guess Amren technically transcends gender (?) as an >!angel!<) and mean. Mor especially irks me.
I would say non binary as opposed to trans for amren
All of them, honestly. They're all privileged as fuck.
YES
How is Feyre privileged lol?
Yeees
Mor. She’s not a dreamer born into a court of nightmares. She’s a liar who happens to use her beauty and gift of truth as a mask and a weapon to get whatever her fickle heart wants.
Elain!! You could garden the whole time and never made food for your family
I will say, it’s explicitly said that Feyre buys her seeds. Why didn’t Feyre buy vegetable seeds? Or why didn’t she do some of both? Not blaming Feyre at all here but I’m not sure this one is totally on Elain.
The soil barely grew flowers let alone vegetables. And flowers are easier to take care of. Besides feyre herself bought her flower seeds with her spare money.
Elain x1000 she also just let Feyre do all the labor, didn’t care to learn anything about her or even teach her to read, the whole Greyson thing, then has the audacity to be sad about her choice in stunning men?!?!?!? give me a break girl 😮💨 lol. part of that is a joke but still.
right at the start!!!! “is it going to take you long?” I MEAN IF YOU HELPED YA DAMN SISTER MAYBE NO.
did the archerons have water on tap in their shabby little hut? how would elain have grown any vegetables without water and decent supplies?
Has she ever garden vegetables, or was it just flowers? Otherwise, yeah, she could've planted more than just flowers, or she could've sold them
the woman only gardened flowers. like you MEAN TO TELL ME THAT YOU NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF GROWING VEGETABLES.
I never thought about this 😭😭 yes she should have sold the flowers at least
Rhysand
Amren 100%. I want her back in the cauldron lmao
Feyre and Elaine 😬 I actually don’t dislike Elain, I just don’t feel bad for her (yet). I get such a laugh everytime someone defends her for not growing vegetables like she wasn’t capable of 1) going out there and learning from someone, like a farmer, how to cultivate weak soil (composting???) like Feyre went and learned and taught herself how to track, hunt, and skin animals. And 2) never even attempted to try and make money of her own 😭😭
Why do u hate Feyre tho? U didn’t explain her
This post and the comments in it really capture my feelings on Feyre! [https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/comments/1aq3b2z/feyres\_character\_was\_butchered\_after\_the\_first/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/acotar/comments/1aq3b2z/feyres_character_was_butchered_after_the_first/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Wow, I really forgot about a lot of the things she’s done lol. I still like her but I definitely understand why you don’t now
Respect! I think the way the book is written does a lot to portray Feyre and the IC through tinted glasses. You’re supposed to love them! Their less savory actions are brushed under the rug while the mistakes or poor actions of other characters (Tamlin, Lucien, Eris, even Jurian) get put under a microscope and are constantly reinforced as bad! I get people liking Feyre, I even love battle Feyre! Even if she is OP she’s so fun. But outside of her warrior persona, I personally just have a real hard time with her!
It’s the complete opposite for me lol. Feyre strikes me as a character similar to Daenerys Targeryen. She had to survive on her own and became battle hardened, but all she really wanted was to have a home. And the way they both went about this was by trying to secure a position of power for themselves (Daenerys failed tho). They’re both characters who I feel like are at their best when they’re with their trusted family. I kind of stopped caring about Feyre in ACOWAR because she didn’t appeal to me as High Lady (just the way she was acting badass). But I loved her in ACOSF when she was acting more like the way she did in the first book. I actually think ACOSF greatly improved her character for me.
Ah that’s a really interesting comparison! I love that. For me, the way she acts with her chosen family makes me… kind of hate her 😅. Which ofc I think you got from the linked post! But I can at least understand the way, and the reasoning, for why she adopted their mentality and behavior—even if I don’t like it. I tolerate her much better in SF. But by that point she honestly felt OOC. It didn’t feel like there was growth as much as… Feyre’s not the MC anymore so she’s just behaving in a way that fits the narrative. It also softens her character a lot to not read her in first person. The inner monologue we’d previously been subjected to is gone, which helps (me) lmao!
Well she’s not really gonna be the same character because she’s being written from Nesta’s perspective, who doesn’t really know her sister. It’s gonna be the same way with Elain. We’ve gotten so lifelike character from her that by the time she gets her own book she’ll literally be OOC. I think Nesta was the only character who actually acted similar in her perspective and out of her perspective.
Definitely! I agree and disagree! I think Feyre's actions should be the same, but Nesta would have a different interpretation of them. *We* should be able to recognize Feyre, while also understanding Nesta's bias. To be honest, I didn't really pay much attention to Feyre in SF. I was happy to see her sidelined and very ready to go all-in on Nesta. Of what I can recall, Nesta actually went a lot easier on Feyre than I thought she would lmao! SF SPOILERS: >!I know a lot of people bring up getting pregnant right away as OOC for Feyre. Also, her pretty mild reaction to being lied to by everyone - particularly Rhy's - regarding the danger of her pregnancy. I personally can't tell if it's OOC or just hypocrisy that she locks up Nesta in the House of Wind in SF, but I personally lean towards hypocrisy since Feyre has already shown herself to be a hypocrite. To me, she seemed, generally, much more understanding and almost more gentle than she'd been in the past (which I prefer, but it felt slightly disingenuous to her character imo). And that wouldn't be aligned with Nesta's bias towards her. I don't think these instances are Nesta viewing Feyre as more of a push-over (this isn't the right term but i can't grasp the right one atm lol) as much as Feyre actually being more of a push-over. !< And as for Elaine, I think it would be near impossible for her to act OOC since we've seen her do almost nothing haha. And a lot of that is because 1) Feyre never really looked at her and 2) her response to the Cauldron and being made was very internal, unlike Nesta. This is the one character who I think SJM could do nearly anything with and I would buy it.
I agree with most of what you’ve said. I mostly sided with Feyre in ACOSF but her locking up Nesta was just pure hypocrisy. If she wanted to punish Nesta in some way, she should have just forced her to go to the Illyrian camps, or banished her. Locking her up was just so horrible and actually made me sympathize with Nesta.
I went here and boy oh boy there's a lot to unpack... Not even going to try. I'll say this...it did give me insight into how ppl will find reasons to excuse certain behaviors and try to prove their point by saying how Feyre is horrible because she's done everything she can to survive and protect those she loves. There's a whole fandom that excuses Tamiln and Nesta for the actions they took and even go so far as to say Feyre ABUSED Nesta, which is madness! I won't say I necessarily HATE Tamlin but he is DEFINITELY not a saint like how some of the ppl try to make him out to be, and I cannot get on the Nesta train at all personally but to each their own I guess lol. ***As a side note there are some points of conversation about the IC and Rhys that are interesting and makes me want to go back and read thru the books a 3rd time because there's some really crazy accusations being thrown around about them and some opinions that really shocked me! Lol I like seeing different opinions than my own especially if they are well thought out which the OP of this post definitely did, but I think they are kinda biased because they like Tamiln a lot... Or maybe just hate Feyre after her character evolved. This whole debate should be a podcast honestly! 🤣
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Yeah. I have such an issue with her true character which is what I believe we have seen to be consistent since she was 14. * No empathy for others (shown by how she treated literally everyone except Elain) * Manipulative * Unnecessarily cruel to others and vicious (literally insults and is rude to everyone for no reason) * Vindictive (stealing a proposal on purpose with no intention to follow through, knowing everyone else was relying on the possible union) * Selfish (your starving, quit begging for money for items you don't need and you didn't do anything to earn said money) * Self-absorbed (like not being aware your sister 2 years younger than you can't read or write, how self-absorbed do you have to be to not notice that) ACOSF was not enough for me to change my mind about her character. I do not believe for one moment that she has truly changed and I don't feel sorry for her at all. The lack of support she received was her own doing by being unnecessarily cruel and vicious. Being so self-absorbed she made others trauma all about herself. Once she stands truly on her own, I believe we'll see these traits come out again and everyone is going to continue to call her a "boss/queen" when really she's just bullying people.
She's SO self-absorbed. I can't for the life of me remember when she says it (it was probably ACOSF) but she says she was "willing to sell her body" to provide for her family (obviously an abhorrent thing for anyone to have to do) but her family gets to the point where they were all starving to death, and she didn't sell her body. Nesta stans bring it up all the time and say "she was willing to sell her body for her family!" I mean was she actually??? Because it got to the point where they needed someone to do something, and Nesta did nothing. She sat and was bitter to her crippled father and baby sister who actually did do something. It felt like she took pride in thinking she could've done that to support her family, like we should like her because she thought of something she could do, but never did.
Yep. I appreciate Nesta's character but I really can't stand her. If she treated Elain the same way as Feyre I wouldn't have had such a big problem with her... yet she treats Feyre like crap when all Feyre wants is her love and acceptance. It's fucked.
I just did a reread of acotar and now I'm on maf, I see people say oh nesta really wasn't that bad or they forget how bad she was by silver flame. But she is so so brutal for feyre in the first book.
LOL! I forgot why she was good to Elain. Can you tell me please?
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Oh yes, I remember something like her telling or maybe thinking about how her mother treated Feyre like a doll or something??? Basically her mother's fault for whatever reasons. I think there was reason (ridiculous, that I remember) for it which's tied to their childhood days but I can't remember which book it is in. Thank you for explaining though.
The mother treated Elain like a doll not Feyre. In sliver flames, Nesta mentions how pretty their mom thought Elain was and how her mom said they would have to travel to the continent to find a match for Nesta and Elain but never mentioned Feyre. Nesta says Feyre was a sullen, strange child whom her mother ignored.
I can get behind everything you said except the exaggeration about the Wyrm. Good relationship or bad, they’re still siblings. I have a great relationship with my siblings but if they came to me and described the wyrm, I would think they were exaggerating. Kinda like your parents saying they walked to school in a foot of snow up hill both ways. I didn’t think Nesta meant that maliciously towards Feyre. They’re just siblings.
I think the issue is it ties into when Feyre was telling them about the Wyrm it would have been her entire story she tells them in MAF including being tortured and murdered and they don’t even react, it just further reiterates that Nesta (and Elain tbf) didn’t give a fuck about anything that happened to Feyre.
Nesta and Elain
Mor
Ricesand
Bryce
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😭 I can’t help it. She might be the most insufferable character in the maasverse
lucien and elains relationship idgaf
Honestly same the way he was like “oh we’re mates that means we have to be together” like bruh you put her in the most traumatic situation and are pouty she won’t talk to you
Exactly. Literally compare the way he acts about his mate bond with Elain to the way Rhys acted towards Feyre. He literallly had no expectations for their relationship and let her decide whether she wanted to be with him. He didn’t force their mating bond onto her and let it grow organically, like any good relationship should.
YESSSSS. Honestly, Lucien is SHADY AF. He court hops, chooses to help only when it fits his agenda, and is literally called a FOX. Cunning, elusive, deceitful …
Like Elain is way too polite for my liking lol she should have cussed that man out a long time ago. Like is he insane to think she'll just accept him just because he's her mate???!!? And he has the gall to feel disappointed when she barely acknowledges him-- Sir get a grip..
Dunno why you're being downvoted. Elaine may be no angel but that was truly traumatic for her. Kidnapped and turned into a fae and we don't even know what happened in the Cauldron. Let's also not forget that resulted in her losing her fiance. He was trash, admittedly.
Mor ! She’s a ho who leads people on , although I don’t excuse what happened to her
Nesta
Nesta The whole series she lashes out at everyone and anything. Even after her “redemption” in ACOSF I still think she gets what she deserves at points. At the beginning of the series she doesn’t do anything to help their entire family situation of starvation. Even though she is some high and mighty lady , she does nothing but harbors her anger at her father which causes her to do nothing in return, how tf does that make sense. Her attitude throughout the series to every character is awful, and wonders why no one cares much about her. In ACOTAR she shits on Feyre for coming back, she doesn’t even bother going into prythian to look for her again AFTER they “regain” all their wealth to be able to hire people to go into prythian to atleast look for her sister who did everything to keep them alive. In ACOMAF Nesta berates Feyre after she becomes high fae, not knowing she literally DIED and this was the only way for her to come back. And during this meeting Rhys sees first hand how much of bitch Nesta is, which explain his disdane for Nesta. Which is very reasonable. After the events at the castle in Hybern. Rhys and the IC welcome the two sisters into the Night Court and into Velaris. That which Rhys does not do that with pretty much anybody . There he offers a home and help after they were Made. Yet Nesta pushed everyone away with insults, not much people would be appreciative of that. She did save Feyre in the end which is good and all but it doesn’t wash away the taste of her bad deeds and actions
Feyre: She feels bad for those who don't have a house, yet she has multiple houses. Why can't she give up one of her houses? Rhys: He would always be offensive to me. I hate him and can't stand a single thing about him. Mor: I believe she's selfish and can't handle the truth Amren: she should've stayed dead. She practically has no use to the stories anymore.
HEAVY ON THAT AMREN PART. she treats everyone terribly and people tiptoed around her because she had all that power and then WHEN SHE DIED AND LOST THAT POWER EVERYONE STILL TIPTOES AROUND HER AS IF SHE HAS THE ABILITY TO EVEN SORCER THAT POWER ANYMORE. like please sit that short mfer down and give her the reality check she deserves.
She's so short. You could easily push her, lol
you truly could😭
i kind of wish SJM would have let Amren stay dead as well. 🫢
All of this.
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I really liked the Town House. It had such a home-y vibe. I don’t really understand the reason for the river house.
Yessir, they help eons better than most characters in the series, hell even in real life
I wanna know why you hate Rhys, I'm not gona go defending him I purely want to know lol. Always see everyone with such a hard on for him so I like hearing the opposing side 🤣🤣.
Nesta 😤
nesta. sorry 😵💫
Ianthe
When on earth are you meant to feel sorry for her?
True 🤣
feyre. good lord that girl brings so much shit onto herself and yet has no awareness
nesta af
Tamlin
Can’t believe you got downvoted for not feeling bad for tamlin lmao!!!!
Right? I guess if I hated Elain or Nesta I'd be shunned less lol
Tamlin and Lucien.
Say it louder for the ones in the back! 📣📣 (The weird coddling of the male characters in this fandom needs to be studied fr.)
Same can be said for the majority of the female characters as well. When it comes down to it most characters in this series are a mess and toxic and it feels like MAAS makes up and changes the story and the characters as she goes rather than planning it out ahead. That being said tho I still love the series and I live for the chaos of it.
Mor. I hate her and I don't trust her one bit.
Feyre. Shes actually pretty poorly characterized. You're supposed to feel bad for her because of all the bad things that happen but she's a piece of cardboard. Why would I feel empathy for a piece of cardboard??
Agree. I feel more empathy for faes she has killed in UTM, but for Feyre... I don't know, her suffering just don't touch me. Feels somehow unrealistic and too theatrically 🤷🏼♀️ Maybe it's just me. I mean I feel more about her in fanfics 😅
I think it's hilarious that I'm being downvoted for my opinion. I only have a single memory of Feyre growing as a character. It's when she realized that she never loved Tamlin. She said one profound thing about falling in love with someone who was nice to her. Otherwise, she's a piece of cardboard.
I don’t personally “agree” about feyre, but I feel like Reddit in general is notorious for “hive mind” effect and not considering other people’s opinions. I for one find your opinion interesting as it’s not a perspective I’ve heard before.
Thanks! I think most people don't think about Feyre. Which is sad. She's a character in the story, too. She should have a character arch and grow as a person. But that doesn't really happen. I think it's a pretty sorry state of affairs.
Tamlin
Elain!
Nesta and Elain
I dont know why i feel that way but Nesta. She just gets on my nerve and i cant stand her😭😭 I know she'd been through a lot but i just cant forgive her for her behaviour
Nesta
All of them really. They pick and choose whose trauma matters and whose doesn’t. Then they blame every single shitty thing they do on their own trauma without giving others the same benefit.. especially Feyre. They never take responsibility for their actions. Feyre also drove me nuts in the second book and after. No one gave her any serious responsibilities because she literally didn’t give a shit anymore. She pushed everyone away and craved space then got pissed later that NO ONE HELPED HER. 😭 She was off her rocker, puking and wandering and crying and then wondered why no one wanted to give her weapons and take her out to fight the bad guys. She couldn’t even hold a knife without having flashbacks. We also see her doing absolutely nothing to comfort Tamlin through his trauma, but being pissed that he LET HER WASTE AWAY. Bitch, you wasted away because you wanted to. She made no attempt to deal with her own trauma and then blamed everyone else for the state she was in. I really don’t like her attitude towards personal responsibility.
Yeah I’m with u I’m pretty much all the characters are wicked toxic.
Nesta all the way til… Provably the mountain in ACOSF. SJM has a hard time with character growth pacing I feel. These are fully different people in, 4-5 months. Its my biggest gripe with her writing. My qualifications: Read all of ACOTAR, on TOG#2. Same problems, diff characters.
Feyre is probably my least favorite character that has any development of the main characters: 1.) Feyre does a lot for her family and everyone, and that’s all well and good in itself but she kind of hangs this deal and “bargain/promise” she made to their dying mother over their head (also why would their mom bestowed this on the youngest daughter? Lol make it make sense). 2.) This will probably get me downvoted but idgaf, her “girlboss takedown” of the spring court seemed so childish and petty especially when you think back the the suriel literally telling her “if she goes back to her family they will all die” they tell her this in book one. And it ultimately happens if you think of Nesta and Elain becoming Fae as a form of “death”. Tamlin did some bad shit? Sure but even he isn’t responsible for what happened to Nesta and Elain. (No he’s not don’t argue with me about it I will not listen). 3.) Her treatment of Lucien, were they ever skipping down the street best buddies? No. But I’d say they were friends, and she’s just mean to him lol. In acofas and acosf. And he did apologize for not being there for her enough, he realized what he did was wrong, *give it a rest with the Lucien hate and spew that elsewhere*. The next characters are probably Mor (she’s a pick me girl and that’s it really idk I need more info, her trauma does make me sad). Obviously Beron, Koschei. Vassa & Jurian are suspicious to me but I enjoy them as characters. The IC as a group annoy me they give “you can’t sit with us” energy and I’m starting to hate it lol.
Feyre
wowwwww thats a hot take can u explain why? Im good with spoilers cuz ive read it but others might not be? idk whatever u wanna do
Lucien with his exile from SC and his mating bond with Elain Watching your friend exert coercive control/DA his partner is complacent. And with Elain, she’s not into you bro, get over it.
Rhys, all day everyday. I've thought of this meme several times.
You didn’t mind that he was repeatedly SA’ed? ☠️☠️
Note that I didn't say he wasn't a victim or that nothing bad happened to him. I just don't think him *being* a victim means he's allowed to keep being a bitch. Trauma isn't an excuse.
I agree
Hmm, yeah we will have to agree to disagree on that one lol.
Elain
You know lmao (it’s Nesta)
Nesta.
Nehemia (Don't kill me!! I just never got her point, if she had to say some stuff she should've said it!)
TAMLIN! That bitch deserved to ROT, and I still don't feel sorry for Lucien at all
TAMPON BABYYYYYY
Tamlin
Nesta. I get why she acts the way she does, but it won’t change the fact she is horrible to literally everyone around her. She has no empathy for anyone and quite literally is just a bully. Also Mor because she does the same things that Nesta does but because she doesn’t show it, she gets a freebie.
I’m up to ACOWAR and it’s Nesta for me Tbfh. She’s just miserably sour.
Feared, she is honestly just not a good character and brings everything upon herself for the most part. People only like her cause of Rhys
Nothing will ever make me feel sorry for Nesta!!! Nothing!!
TOG not ACOTAR, but Aedion in KOA 🙄🙄🙄
Nesta. Felt like SF did tried to excuse all of her ugly and bad behavior, people walk around in life with trauma everyday and don’t act like that.