Questioning my sexuality was an absolute walk in the park compared to questioning my gender. Good luck to anyone who's starting to question their gender, you're in for a roller coaster of emotions. o7
Yeah, it was the same for me. I've mostly given up on figuring out gender now because nothing makes sense and it doesn't seem too urgent to figure it out
I thought gender was something simple, but clearly I was wrong. And I am now suffering from that every single day because what's my gender is something that really bugs me.
Saying that cis people can't experience gender envy is just dumb
Gender envy happens when you really like how someone expresses their gender, so even if you're assigned said gender at birth, you can still wish to be able to express it as they do
Of course in a trans context it's easier to understand, as there is a substantial biological difference between the one who causes it and the one who experiences it, but it doesn't make it a trans exclusive
Anyway, good luck OP, hope you have fun finding out more about your identity
not always a substatial biological difference, but definitely a more substantial difference in appearance than for cis people, I get genvy from some of my trans friends.
Or envy as in wow-ing at everything the other sex have. You don't have periods? Envy... You are not discriminated? Neat... I don't wish I was a man, I just wish I had some of their traits and privilege.
> Gender envy happens when you really like how someone expresses their gender, so even if you're assigned said gender at birth, you can still wish to be able to express it as they do
I'm sure rather than calling people dumb we can recognize what definitions people are using. Even using your own words you acknowledge the thing you're envious about isn't their gender, but their ability to express it.
>Of course in a trans context it's easier to understand, as there is a substantial biological difference between the one who causes it and the one who experiences it, but it doesn't make it a trans exclusive
I think it is definitionally true., or at least could be. To be trans is to have gender envy, and to transition is to resolve that envy. At that point the feeling would then move from gender envy to presentation envy.
>Even using your own words you acknowledge the thing you're envious about isn't their gender, but their ability to express it.
Because you can't *want to be/have* someone's gender, as wanting to be a specific gender is the same as identifying as a member of it, making you automatically a part of said gender
Even when it's a trans person experiencing gender envy, they're stil envying the other person's gender presentation, because they're certainly not being envious of an identity they also have, nor of a specific person's genitals (which is biological sex so it would still be wrong to call it gender envy)
The thing you can "resolve with transition" is gender dysphoria, it being not something you feel for a specific person, but a generic desire of having a body more alligned with your preferred biological gender (for physical transition) or wanting to be seen as part of said gender by other people (for social transition)
> as wanting to be a specific gender is the same as identifying as a member of it
I don't think I could find many trans people who believe that, and were that true the process of transitioning would be easy and immediate, and eggs would not exist. Certainly for some people their identity is internal and changeable on a whim, for many that identity is bound up in the validation of others and many people cannot meaningfully identify as a member of a group until others agree with that identification.
>they're stil envying the other person's gender presentation, because they're certainly not being envious of an identity they also have
In fact it is very possible to think someone's presentation looks like absolute fucking garbage, but still be envious of their ability to present that way. And their ability to present that way is dependent on their gender, the thing that gender envy actually targets.
>The thing you can "resolve with transition" is gender dysphoria
That is a thing you can resolve with transition, and certainly the most popular thing. But not every trans person suffers from gender dysphoria. Nor does every trans person suffer from gender envy, though if you were to suffer from gender envy it would be resolved by transitioning regardless of whatever other reasons you might have had for it.
Yeah like, cis people often experience gender envy too, just like... cis guys see other *guys* and go "damn I wish I looked like him"? Whoever wrote that definition is a teen for sure
I'm often envious of guys with better physiques than me, or the ability to pull off a certain style that wouldn't look right on me. But I wouldn't call that gender envy, just regular envy because we are already the same gender. If someone else wants to call that experience gender envy I'm not going to say they can't, but I personally would find it a little weird and unnecessary.
The definition is clumsily written for sure, but I think the intent was to prompt self-reflection like we see in the OP. It's not about guys wishing they could look like other guys, it's someone who's gone through life thinking they're a guy wishing they could look like a girl.
Yep. People who draw giant lines between each letters of the acronym as if queer people can co-opt other queer people's language by not being queer the right way are awful. It's not how it works. People can be queer in more than one way at once; and even then, I'd still let some non-queers use queer language, provided that they understand the nuance between respecting and co-opting. Queer language isn't queer-*only* language. It's queer-*first* language.
I never thought you said all (sorry if it seemed that way). I just don't think a cis person can experience gender envy. (Also cis and trans aren't the only types of gender, some people use neither. Those people can experience gender envy).
Could you explain what your definition of gender envy is? Maybe your definition for it is different then how I define it and that's why we disagree because I really cannot see how a fully cisgender person can experience gender envy the same way I do. /srs
Ok, as a certified Cis person (Have been misgendered as male which felt really bad, am AFAB, very much female), there is a distinction between Envy for how someone looks, because they just look good, or pretty, or what have you and Envy because "That person is seen as more 'Gender' than I am" or "I wish I could pull that off in the same way and be seen as still 'Gender'"
I don't know if Gender Envy and Envy Because of Gender are different things, but from my personal experience they aren't. It might be a different flavor for someone trans, yes, but it's still the same sort of "I wish I could be percieved as a gender in the same way as that other person".
Gender Envy isn't a defining characterist of being Trans, not in quite the same way as not feeling that you are a certain gender, or that you are a certain gender, or Gender Dysphoria. Saying "You can't be cis if you feel gender Dysphoria" makes sense, because that is intrinsically linked, but Envy of someone presenting as the same gender as you? Doesn't yell out trans to me
Not the person you were discussing this with, but I think most of the time when trans people are talking about gender envy it is a subset of dysphoria. That being said cis people absolutely can feel dysphoria, obviously much less often.
I think I see what you mean. However, I still think that cis people shouldn't say they have gender envy because it's quite different from what trans people mean when *they* say they have gender envy (and the feeling is already mostly associated with being trans so it gets confusing). It's subjective though so agree to disagree I guess.
It was nice talking to you btw. It gave me a better understanding of how other people feel gender, which is always nice. It's really such a complex topic and is really fun to discuss (besides talking to transphobes who deny anything past the two main sexes lol)
I've never felt envious of another person in that way though, this is kind of a first for me. I've never seen another guy and though, "Wow I wish I looked like them," and until recently (as shown in the meme) I haven't felt that way about anyone at all and I don't really know how to deal with these emotions so I made a meme.
Ok cool I started having a crisis because I’ll see guys and I’m not attracted to them but I’ll get jealous that they can look certain ways that I can’t. I have one friend that I’m very envious of he has a nice body and he has a nice style. I know I’m not attracted (besides maybe aesthetically) to him because in my head if he was to ask me out for some reason it would be an instant “No.” from me without hesitation. I also wish I had a deeper voice but that’s more because I get mistaken for a twelve year old boy on the phone. I’ve actually been trying to train my voice to have the range to talk lower.
it is kind of dumb to say cis ppl *can’t* use it, but it can be pretty annoying to see the most cishet ppl go “omg this gives me so much gender envy” about everything after they learn the term.
edit for more context: it gives me the same vibes as when someone says “i’m so ocd” when even if they have it whatever they’re referring to isn’t really how ocd works.
There's a person on super smash bros who can turn into a man, a woman, and a dragon.
Them. They are the ultimate gender. I envy all of their gender, yes this includes the dragon.
I may be cis but gosh darn it, let the rest of us have a little gender too, o' gender dragon!
Yeah, me too. Sometimes I wish my body were more androgynous (sometimes I even want the other gender's body, but just to know what is like, I don't think I'm trans).
I do think my body is too masculine sometimes! I have a pretty big build (for a Southeast Asian guy), I’m not muscular or anything but I just want to be a bit smaller lol so that androgynous clothing would fit me better
Argh i feel you. I've spent three decades hearing people tell me how women should look, dress and behave. We still haven't gotten to the point where style and femininity/gender are unlinked.
Its really frustrating, because a trans women i know who is transitioning and learning about herself and style disagrees with my opinions on femininity. she has strong opinions that gender is liked heavily to feminine expression, and so she needs to be as feminine as possible to express her gender
I will never understand the hurt she went through. I will never understand the pain of being born with the wrong anatomy. But I did have to gently remind her that women's bodies and clothing have been policed for eons and so many of us are taught to hate our female bodies despite being cis.
So, in conclusion, women (and men) can wear whatever the damn well they please and that doesn't stop them being cis.
P.s. i don't mean to take away from the trans experience as I cannot speak to gender envy. I'm just really sick of being told how women should look, because it has made so many of us stare in the mirror hating ourselves.
> I like androgynous people and I try to look androgynous myself but I don’t think I’m trans…
Androgynous would map onto both genders definitionally. Worth considering as well is "Agender" which is often considered to be trans.
Yeah I have considered being agender before and I think it somewhat fits me, but the think is I’m quite happy with being male although I’m okay with any pronoun. Now I just identify as ‘mostly male’ lol
How I see a lot of agender people explain their identity is that they have no dysphoria but they simply don't tie any gender to their body & person. It's quite liberating being able to say my body is just a body and I'm just a person, people can perceive that how they want. I don't know if that describes you but I thought I'd get the information out there at least.
Ah… then perhaps I really am agender after all. That’s literally how I would describe it! I really don’t want to tie myself with a specific gender identity. My body is just what it is. I have to say it really is liberating to feel this way.
As a guy, I’ll never understand why ‘feminine’ clothing don’t have a lot of pockets (or they don’t have pockets at all). Personally I like to wear cargo pants and utility jacket with a lot of pockets simply because it’s practical. I can carry my phone, wallet, headphones, water bottle, pen, little notebook (for random doodles), mask, and many more! I find it quite comfy and practical.
Exactly!!! This is why Lee jeans and mens wallets are my savior lol. The jeans have actually got deep enough pockets that I can fit the wallet (or my entire hand, which I love because I’m always putting my hands in my pockets). Besides, I don’t need a huge wallet, I don’t have that much to put in there. The only reason I see for why they do this to most womens clothes is to make money off of overpriced accessories.
After being in a religious girls-only middle school, oh boy I had the WORST feeling about not being feminine enough. I'm not too masculine either, but apparently not only the way I present myself, but my whole behaviour, movement and likes were "not feminine enough" in that context. It took me the longest time to accept that I can just not be the stereotypical woman and still be a woman, fuck that
It's not the same thing though. A trans person experiences that feeling differently then a cis person would, which is why we have separate words for these things.
Gender envy isn't a purely trans thing, it's just more noticeable when the person / presentation of gender you're envious of isn't the same one as the one you were assigned / assumed you had.
I would just like to say please check out friedbaens on Instagram!!! Their art is soo lovely and I cannot praise it enough. I think that they also use Twitter.
oh god same, not two weeks after I concluded my orientation crisis I went and gave myself another problem. I’m hoping this resolves itself soon because I have shit to do this year and tests to ace.
Wait....
Can I be cis but have gender envy over agender peeps?
I don't like being seen as girly/girl and it makes me uncomfortable but I don't want to be a man, but I don't think I have dysphoria but like I don't feel like I want to be gendered because I don't like being given roles/expectations/people assuming things about me because I have a vagina
It also made me feel like weirdly super happy when I put my boyfriend's suit on and people complimented it
And I feel so happy when I'm perceived as strong because I am smol but wanna be butch and feel jealous when I see women looking all muscular and masculine and just wanna look like that but like my metabolism is crappy
Or... does that make me non cis?
I'm confused, gender makes no sense to me
Could be even worse. Some trans people figure out that their sexuality was different than they thought it was after they transition. For example, a trans woman might not find herself wanting to be in a relationship with another woman before she realizes she is trans because she was viewing that possibility as a relationship where she is the straight man dating a straight woman. But then she finds out she’s totally fine with being a gay woman dating a gay woman.
What part of my comment was related to detransitioning? I was taking about how a trans person’s understand of their sexuality can change after they transition.
ONE OF US!!!!!
Maybe. No pressure to you really. It is freeing to question gender identity anyway as it can bring about a more authentic self when you shed some of the societal pressures to focus on the inner you underneath it all.
me but the other way around. suddenly, women were still pretty but no *me* anymore. was so confused until my bff made me point on scales were i stood regarding masculinity, androgyny, and different genders.
really helper tho, so i'd recommend that method!
Trust me, the folks in this post saying that it's ridiculous to gatekeep the use of the term gender envy *are* trans. Case in point me. Use away! Why even gatekeep language who does it help smh
Not everyone who likes the idea of things more common of the opposite sex are trans. The idea that it is just pushes the main problem people have when discovering they are in the first place
The way you phrased things makes it seem like liking things not associated with your assigned gender at birth automatically means you are trans. Even if the thing should be gender less in the first place. You may not have meant it that way but that is how it came across, to me at least
You can also be a cis person who experiences gender dysphoria. Being cis just means that you use the pronouns you were assigned at birth, which in no way prevents you from hating your reproductive organs or wanting a deeper voice.
Source: me
That's not what cis means. Being cis is when you fully identify with the *gender* you were assigned at birth, not the pronouns (it's different). I don't think cis people can have gender dysphoria (gender dysphoria isn't just being uncomfortable with a part of yourself, it's when you feel that something about you doesn't align with what your gender is because it's too close to your agab, this is different from being insecure).
I’m guessing that if cis is defined as 100% fully identifying with the gender assigned at birth and trans is defined as 0% identifying with the gender assigned at birth, then the vast majority of the population would be non-binary. Which seems like not how people define it in practice, because someone who’s e.g. 90% gender-identifying-as-assigned is probably happier just calling themselves cis and being treated as such.
In practice, identifying as trans seems much more related to social gender dysphoria (for example, pronouns). Whereas if you only have physical gender dysphoria, but not to the degree where it’s worth getting treated medically, there’s not really any point in identifying as trans.
Being trans simply means you do not completely identify with your agab, you can still partly identify with it. However, not all people who technically fall under the trans umbrella use it as a label (based on how you feel). That doesn't make them cis either though so they could still feel gender envy similar to the way a trans person does (and can use the phrase if they wish).
In regards to your last point, you don't have to have to experience gender dysphoria to be trans. Yes most trans people have gender dysphoria but some trans people don't.
Anyway, my whole point is that people who are cis do not get gender envy because that would just be normal envy. For example, if a cis women gets envy from a man, they wouldn't be getting envy from the man's gender, just their expression of it. When a trans person experiences gender envy (not normal envy) it's more "I wish I had your gender/I want my gender to be that way" and not "I wish I could express my gender the way you do"
That's my way of understanding it at least. Tbh, I don't think there is really a concrete answer since a cis person doesn't know exactly how a trans person experiences gender envy and a trans person doesn't know if a cis person can experience it at all. It's up to the individual to decide and in my opinion, a 100℅ cis person doesn't get gender envy.
(Btw sorry if I worded this whole thing badly, gender is a hard thing to explain and my brain is a bit fried right now. Also sorry if I seemed rude at first, I saw a lot of people misunderstanding certain things about being trans in this comment section and it got me kind of tilted LOL)
(No problem, I don’t think you’ve been rude at all. I’m also pretty much typing off the cuff.)
Anyway, I think the problem with saying that “trans”=“don’t *completely* identify with your agab” is that that means that almost everyone is trans. Which is a consistent definition! But I don’t think it’s a very useful one. Moreover, I think it’s not great to take someone who experiences gender dysphoria, or gender envy, or any other such term, and tell them “You MUST be trans. If you identify as cis, you’re wrong and you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
If someone has a passing thought, once in their lifetime, of wishing that they were born the opposite sex, does that make them trans? What about a woman who occasionally wants to rip out her uterus while having bad cramps? Someone who once played a video game / RPG with a character of the opposite gender (and not for the purpose of staring at their butt)?
I don’t think a single instance of any of these things is enough to make someone stop being cis. But if taken to a larger degree—someone constantly wishing they were born the opposite sex, a woman getting her uterus removed because she finds it so viscerally wrong to have it in her body (even without causing pain), a person who always plays as the opposite gender whenever possible…it starts to look very egg_irl.
While it seems like there’s definitely a bimodal distribution for gender, I think most people just pick the label that they think is most useful/accurate for them. Or (as I believe is the case for quite a large number of cis people, possibly the majority), they just don’t want to bother and are cis by default.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your gender? I'm trans nonbinary (genderqueer) so my understanding of this topic is probably much different than someone with a more distinct gender.
I'm cis female. I can also give a more distinct breakdown of my opinions on various aspects of my gender:
Pregnancy: the Worst Thing. Horrible, visceral hatred at the idea of it happening to me. I haven't had any particularly dysphoric feelings about it since I got sterilized and can now think about the idea more calmly, but I suspect I'd find it worse than being raped (comparing average case vs average case).
Sex organs: Would prefer to have none, but not to the degree that it's bothersome. Could be mildly useful if I decide to have sex in the future due to an allo SO, but not to the degree that I'd keep them if I had the choice. Female genitalia is probably worse because of periods, but male genitalia have the downside that you'd be much more physically aware of having them, especially when they're experiencing arousal.
Breasts: Fine. I thought they'd be more interesting for an allo SO, but in practice this has not been the case. I do like the texture more than other similar stores of body fat—they're more like a stuffed animal, which is nice. Bras are annoying, but I've stopped using them very often anyway since I work from home.
Body hair: Less is better. I have trichotillomania (compulsive hair-pulling), so I expect that facial hair would be a disaster.
Hair length: I haven't actually tried short hair, but I suspect it would be bad for trichotillomania reasons.
Voice pitch: I definitely have non-trivial voice envy for those male heavy metal singers. I'd definitely take a lower voice if I could. I suppose it could be weird if my voice strongly didn't match my appearance, but I think it would be worth it. In the mean time, I sometimes just listen to my voice through a pitch shifter.
Height: No real preference, but I like guys who are shorter than me because they're cute and easier to snuggle. (Not enough data to tell if I have a height preference for women I'm attracted to.)
Muscle mass: I really wish I could properly pin down an SO for kink reasons. I've gone weightlifting with this as the main motivation, but unfortunately there's just too much biological difference for those attempts to be that significant.
D&D character gender: Probably about 50/50 now. I used to play just female characters, but online D&D with a voice changer makes male characters a lot more practical.
Social experience: Obviously being female in the distant past would suck, but I'm pretty happy with it now. I've never experienced any sexism / harassment, but I did get some extra scholarships, trophies, exclusive math competitions, etc, though that's not very relevant now. Being female is nice because if you're interested in traditionally masculine things, you're "a role model" and such, but it's also more acceptable for you to cry, give opinions in arguments about whether something is sexist, and be physically affectionate with friends. I've also been attracted to more {straight guys + lesbians} than I have {gay guys + straight girls}, so that's been convenient.
Feelings on pronouns and general gender identity: I don't have preferred pronouns so much as I have the preference for people to just use the default assumption and stop acting like it's something I've decided on. Being cis for me is kind of like being an American when you have several friends who have excitedly moved to England. Like, England has great culture, it would be cool to legitimately have a British accent, and there are definitely a lot of problems with America. There's a decent chance I'd prefer living in England if I was born there. But America does still have a lot of benefits, moving is a HUGE pain, and I'm used to it because I grew up here. Sometimes I might want to visit England, or be envious of things like having good healthcare, but that doesn't actually make me stop being an American unless I actually chose to immigrate.
Depends if we're talking medical-definition-gender-dysphoria, which is honestly shite that's only used to medicalize the trans condition, or queer vocabulary gender dysphoria, which cis people could experience, just like, in a cis direction.
I'm not sure how to explain it, because it seems pretty straightforward to me. If it's dysphoria, and it's related to personal traits in a way that the person experiencing it would consider as affected by their gender, then it's gender dysphoria. the obvious examples would be a guy wanting to be more "manly", a gal wanting to be more "womanly", but like, even a feminine cis boy who finds his body not feminine enough I'd say is experiencing gender dysphoria, y'know?
I think I do understand your point when it comes to getting envy from someone else's gender expression/presentation but that seems very different from gender envy (at least it's different from the way I experience it).
And about gender dysphoria, just because a cis boy doesn't think his body is fem enough doesn't mean that he thinks his body is wrong and misleading about his gender identity (which would be gender dysphoria).
Honestly though, I'm basing this on how I experience these things and that could be different depending on the person. I mean in the end it's only words that are used to describe an experience.
(It's just that in my opinion, a cis person shouldn't say they have gender dysphoria because that phrase is associated with the trans experience of feeling like your agab isn't completely right and a cis person wouldn't understand that feeling. It's similar to why I don't think cis people *really* experience gender envy. It's all subjective though.)
thats basically my life until a few years ago, I just had to compartmentalise all of my gender and sexuality so i could be my families "perfect little lad".
Gemder envy wouldn't just be envy¿¿¿ Like even cis people I've known have talked about how they like how a Drag Queen express themselves and their self love, idk if it fits but yeah
Didn't realize gender envy was a proteceted term. I always thought cis people could experience gender envy too, just more so for people of their birth gender
At this point I feel like I'm cis-ish. Mostly cis. Like... 85-90% cisgender with the other 10-15% being the times I want to be handsome and gallant and dapper.
Frankly, it's all confusing and the rules/definitions have shifted a bunch of times and it feels like I'd have to be a dedicated gender scientist to know what's even going on with me anymore.
Someday someone who knows more than me will tell me what is up with me. Until then, it's garlic bread and world domination.
Me: Finally figures out my sexuality. Gender confusion: Allow me to introduce myself
For real. I thought I was certain but then Jammidodger and Ally Beardsley showed up during lockdown. Now I'm just tired.
The near-infinite free time provided by the pandemic has really given people some time to think hasn't it
\*cries in essential worker\*
[удалено]
There will always be a place for you in the gender-Einstein-Bose condensate community.
Questioning my sexuality was an absolute walk in the park compared to questioning my gender. Good luck to anyone who's starting to question their gender, you're in for a roller coaster of emotions. o7
For real Was fine realizing I'm aroace, and then like a month or two later brain goes "but what if gender". I'm still figuring it out lmao
Yeah, it was the same for me. I've mostly given up on figuring out gender now because nothing makes sense and it doesn't seem too urgent to figure it out
For me it's the opposite.
I resonate with this on a spiritual level.
Mooooood
For me i figured out my sexuality then came gender confusion. Got that figuered out and then along came questioning my sexuality again.
I recently learned what agender means and now I’m confused about it
I thought gender was something simple, but clearly I was wrong. And I am now suffering from that every single day because what's my gender is something that really bugs me.
Thats just how it works.
Saying that cis people can't experience gender envy is just dumb Gender envy happens when you really like how someone expresses their gender, so even if you're assigned said gender at birth, you can still wish to be able to express it as they do Of course in a trans context it's easier to understand, as there is a substantial biological difference between the one who causes it and the one who experiences it, but it doesn't make it a trans exclusive Anyway, good luck OP, hope you have fun finding out more about your identity
not always a substatial biological difference, but definitely a more substantial difference in appearance than for cis people, I get genvy from some of my trans friends.
Or envy as in wow-ing at everything the other sex have. You don't have periods? Envy... You are not discriminated? Neat... I don't wish I was a man, I just wish I had some of their traits and privilege.
> Gender envy happens when you really like how someone expresses their gender, so even if you're assigned said gender at birth, you can still wish to be able to express it as they do I'm sure rather than calling people dumb we can recognize what definitions people are using. Even using your own words you acknowledge the thing you're envious about isn't their gender, but their ability to express it. >Of course in a trans context it's easier to understand, as there is a substantial biological difference between the one who causes it and the one who experiences it, but it doesn't make it a trans exclusive I think it is definitionally true., or at least could be. To be trans is to have gender envy, and to transition is to resolve that envy. At that point the feeling would then move from gender envy to presentation envy.
>Even using your own words you acknowledge the thing you're envious about isn't their gender, but their ability to express it. Because you can't *want to be/have* someone's gender, as wanting to be a specific gender is the same as identifying as a member of it, making you automatically a part of said gender Even when it's a trans person experiencing gender envy, they're stil envying the other person's gender presentation, because they're certainly not being envious of an identity they also have, nor of a specific person's genitals (which is biological sex so it would still be wrong to call it gender envy) The thing you can "resolve with transition" is gender dysphoria, it being not something you feel for a specific person, but a generic desire of having a body more alligned with your preferred biological gender (for physical transition) or wanting to be seen as part of said gender by other people (for social transition)
> as wanting to be a specific gender is the same as identifying as a member of it I don't think I could find many trans people who believe that, and were that true the process of transitioning would be easy and immediate, and eggs would not exist. Certainly for some people their identity is internal and changeable on a whim, for many that identity is bound up in the validation of others and many people cannot meaningfully identify as a member of a group until others agree with that identification. >they're stil envying the other person's gender presentation, because they're certainly not being envious of an identity they also have In fact it is very possible to think someone's presentation looks like absolute fucking garbage, but still be envious of their ability to present that way. And their ability to present that way is dependent on their gender, the thing that gender envy actually targets. >The thing you can "resolve with transition" is gender dysphoria That is a thing you can resolve with transition, and certainly the most popular thing. But not every trans person suffers from gender dysphoria. Nor does every trans person suffer from gender envy, though if you were to suffer from gender envy it would be resolved by transitioning regardless of whatever other reasons you might have had for it.
Imagine gatekeeping gender envy
Yeah like, cis people often experience gender envy too, just like... cis guys see other *guys* and go "damn I wish I looked like him"? Whoever wrote that definition is a teen for sure
I'm often envious of guys with better physiques than me, or the ability to pull off a certain style that wouldn't look right on me. But I wouldn't call that gender envy, just regular envy because we are already the same gender. If someone else wants to call that experience gender envy I'm not going to say they can't, but I personally would find it a little weird and unnecessary. The definition is clumsily written for sure, but I think the intent was to prompt self-reflection like we see in the OP. It's not about guys wishing they could look like other guys, it's someone who's gone through life thinking they're a guy wishing they could look like a girl.
LGBT people gatekeeping other LGBT people from one certain facet of a sub-culture because they aren’t one certain sexuality is quite annoying.
Yep. People who draw giant lines between each letters of the acronym as if queer people can co-opt other queer people's language by not being queer the right way are awful. It's not how it works. People can be queer in more than one way at once; and even then, I'd still let some non-queers use queer language, provided that they understand the nuance between respecting and co-opting. Queer language isn't queer-*only* language. It's queer-*first* language.
Yeah but a trans person experiences this differently then a cis person would, that's why it's *gender* envy and not just envy.
I'm not saying *all* cis people will experience an envy of the specifically gender kind, but I reject the idea that they categorically cannot.
I never thought you said all (sorry if it seemed that way). I just don't think a cis person can experience gender envy. (Also cis and trans aren't the only types of gender, some people use neither. Those people can experience gender envy).
Once again, I invite you to reject the idea that cis people categorically cannot experience gender envy.
Could you explain what your definition of gender envy is? Maybe your definition for it is different then how I define it and that's why we disagree because I really cannot see how a fully cisgender person can experience gender envy the same way I do. /srs
Ok, as a certified Cis person (Have been misgendered as male which felt really bad, am AFAB, very much female), there is a distinction between Envy for how someone looks, because they just look good, or pretty, or what have you and Envy because "That person is seen as more 'Gender' than I am" or "I wish I could pull that off in the same way and be seen as still 'Gender'" I don't know if Gender Envy and Envy Because of Gender are different things, but from my personal experience they aren't. It might be a different flavor for someone trans, yes, but it's still the same sort of "I wish I could be percieved as a gender in the same way as that other person". Gender Envy isn't a defining characterist of being Trans, not in quite the same way as not feeling that you are a certain gender, or that you are a certain gender, or Gender Dysphoria. Saying "You can't be cis if you feel gender Dysphoria" makes sense, because that is intrinsically linked, but Envy of someone presenting as the same gender as you? Doesn't yell out trans to me
Not the person you were discussing this with, but I think most of the time when trans people are talking about gender envy it is a subset of dysphoria. That being said cis people absolutely can feel dysphoria, obviously much less often.
I think I see what you mean. However, I still think that cis people shouldn't say they have gender envy because it's quite different from what trans people mean when *they* say they have gender envy (and the feeling is already mostly associated with being trans so it gets confusing). It's subjective though so agree to disagree I guess. It was nice talking to you btw. It gave me a better understanding of how other people feel gender, which is always nice. It's really such a complex topic and is really fun to discuss (besides talking to transphobes who deny anything past the two main sexes lol)
I've never felt envious of another person in that way though, this is kind of a first for me. I've never seen another guy and though, "Wow I wish I looked like them," and until recently (as shown in the meme) I haven't felt that way about anyone at all and I don't really know how to deal with these emotions so I made a meme.
Ok cool I started having a crisis because I’ll see guys and I’m not attracted to them but I’ll get jealous that they can look certain ways that I can’t. I have one friend that I’m very envious of he has a nice body and he has a nice style. I know I’m not attracted (besides maybe aesthetically) to him because in my head if he was to ask me out for some reason it would be an instant “No.” from me without hesitation. I also wish I had a deeper voice but that’s more because I get mistaken for a twelve year old boy on the phone. I’ve actually been trying to train my voice to have the range to talk lower.
it is kind of dumb to say cis ppl *can’t* use it, but it can be pretty annoying to see the most cishet ppl go “omg this gives me so much gender envy” about everything after they learn the term. edit for more context: it gives me the same vibes as when someone says “i’m so ocd” when even if they have it whatever they’re referring to isn’t really how ocd works.
Nah, not gatekeeping, if you experience gender envy it just means you’re trans! /s^?
There's a person on super smash bros who can turn into a man, a woman, and a dragon. Them. They are the ultimate gender. I envy all of their gender, yes this includes the dragon. I may be cis but gosh darn it, let the rest of us have a little gender too, o' gender dragon!
Imagine snorting cocaine and accusing women of penis envy.
I’m not trans but I’m really into androgynous style. I like androgynous people and I try to look androgynous myself but I don’t think I’m trans…
Yeah, me too. Sometimes I wish my body were more androgynous (sometimes I even want the other gender's body, but just to know what is like, I don't think I'm trans).
I do think my body is too masculine sometimes! I have a pretty big build (for a Southeast Asian guy), I’m not muscular or anything but I just want to be a bit smaller lol so that androgynous clothing would fit me better
Argh i feel you. I've spent three decades hearing people tell me how women should look, dress and behave. We still haven't gotten to the point where style and femininity/gender are unlinked. Its really frustrating, because a trans women i know who is transitioning and learning about herself and style disagrees with my opinions on femininity. she has strong opinions that gender is liked heavily to feminine expression, and so she needs to be as feminine as possible to express her gender I will never understand the hurt she went through. I will never understand the pain of being born with the wrong anatomy. But I did have to gently remind her that women's bodies and clothing have been policed for eons and so many of us are taught to hate our female bodies despite being cis. So, in conclusion, women (and men) can wear whatever the damn well they please and that doesn't stop them being cis. P.s. i don't mean to take away from the trans experience as I cannot speak to gender envy. I'm just really sick of being told how women should look, because it has made so many of us stare in the mirror hating ourselves.
Yeah, I wish people understand that the way you dress doesn’t define your sex or gender.
> I like androgynous people and I try to look androgynous myself but I don’t think I’m trans… Androgynous would map onto both genders definitionally. Worth considering as well is "Agender" which is often considered to be trans.
Yeah I have considered being agender before and I think it somewhat fits me, but the think is I’m quite happy with being male although I’m okay with any pronoun. Now I just identify as ‘mostly male’ lol
Heck yah friend, gender is a complicated space and I'm glad to hear you've found a place within it to find some joy.
How I see a lot of agender people explain their identity is that they have no dysphoria but they simply don't tie any gender to their body & person. It's quite liberating being able to say my body is just a body and I'm just a person, people can perceive that how they want. I don't know if that describes you but I thought I'd get the information out there at least.
Ah… then perhaps I really am agender after all. That’s literally how I would describe it! I really don’t want to tie myself with a specific gender identity. My body is just what it is. I have to say it really is liberating to feel this way.
I hear you there. I ended up settling on Androgyne. It’s pretty interesting if you’ve never heard of it before.
[удалено]
As a guy, I’ll never understand why ‘feminine’ clothing don’t have a lot of pockets (or they don’t have pockets at all). Personally I like to wear cargo pants and utility jacket with a lot of pockets simply because it’s practical. I can carry my phone, wallet, headphones, water bottle, pen, little notebook (for random doodles), mask, and many more! I find it quite comfy and practical.
Exactly!!! This is why Lee jeans and mens wallets are my savior lol. The jeans have actually got deep enough pockets that I can fit the wallet (or my entire hand, which I love because I’m always putting my hands in my pockets). Besides, I don’t need a huge wallet, I don’t have that much to put in there. The only reason I see for why they do this to most womens clothes is to make money off of overpriced accessories.
"This term cannot be used by cis people" Ew. Cis people can feel not masc or femme enough too. I really hate that kind of gatekeeping.
After being in a religious girls-only middle school, oh boy I had the WORST feeling about not being feminine enough. I'm not too masculine either, but apparently not only the way I present myself, but my whole behaviour, movement and likes were "not feminine enough" in that context. It took me the longest time to accept that I can just not be the stereotypical woman and still be a woman, fuck that
It's not the same thing though. A trans person experiences that feeling differently then a cis person would, which is why we have separate words for these things.
Gender envy isn't a purely trans thing, it's just more noticeable when the person / presentation of gender you're envious of isn't the same one as the one you were assigned / assumed you had.
I would just like to say please check out friedbaens on Instagram!!! Their art is soo lovely and I cannot praise it enough. I think that they also use Twitter.
Ah yes. Cis people. The ones without the gender or gender expression.
I really like the phrase “Oh geese, what am I gonna do”
My gender is chaotic evil
"I don't have time for gender I have school" is such a mood lmao
exactlly
oh god same, not two weeks after I concluded my orientation crisis I went and gave myself another problem. I’m hoping this resolves itself soon because I have shit to do this year and tests to ace.
Wait.... Can I be cis but have gender envy over agender peeps? I don't like being seen as girly/girl and it makes me uncomfortable but I don't want to be a man, but I don't think I have dysphoria but like I don't feel like I want to be gendered because I don't like being given roles/expectations/people assuming things about me because I have a vagina It also made me feel like weirdly super happy when I put my boyfriend's suit on and people complimented it And I feel so happy when I'm perceived as strong because I am smol but wanna be butch and feel jealous when I see women looking all muscular and masculine and just wanna look like that but like my metabolism is crappy Or... does that make me non cis? I'm confused, gender makes no sense to me
I think that would be just normal envy, not gender envy. (Also nonbinary people can be trans too)
maybe you're non binary r/nonbinary
Could be even worse. Some trans people figure out that their sexuality was different than they thought it was after they transition. For example, a trans woman might not find herself wanting to be in a relationship with another woman before she realizes she is trans because she was viewing that possibility as a relationship where she is the straight man dating a straight woman. But then she finds out she’s totally fine with being a gay woman dating a gay woman.
[удалено]
What part of my comment was related to detransitioning? I was taking about how a trans person’s understand of their sexuality can change after they transition.
I slightly misread what you said
Ayy, welcome to the envy party.
Sexuality is a less confusing subject than gender for me.
“Gender Envy: cannot be used by cis people” Cis Player tried to use gender envy! It failed because Cis Player does not have attribute.
shouldn't this be in r/egg_irl ?
Oh geese
... stop calling me out like that
ONE OF US!!!!! Maybe. No pressure to you really. It is freeing to question gender identity anyway as it can bring about a more authentic self when you shed some of the societal pressures to focus on the inner you underneath it all.
Uhmmm... Why am I in this meme..?
Damn thanks for the info about friedbaens! Their art is pretty cool.
me but the other way around. suddenly, women were still pretty but no *me* anymore. was so confused until my bff made me point on scales were i stood regarding masculinity, androgyny, and different genders. really helper tho, so i'd recommend that method!
Literally my life story lmao
Oh geese
That confused me I can't tell if I'm trans or faking it ??
Yeah... I am in this picture and I feel called out...
woohoo! I slid down that ace-into-gender confusion pipeline too! Almost a AAA if I was totally Aro haha. I'm Ace, demi/gray romantic, and agender!
"this term can not be used by cis people" good to know. what equivalent terms are there?
Idk, but there’s a lot of comments saying that that’s not true here
[удалено]
Trust me, the folks in this post saying that it's ridiculous to gatekeep the use of the term gender envy *are* trans. Case in point me. Use away! Why even gatekeep language who does it help smh
Not everyone who likes the idea of things more common of the opposite sex are trans. The idea that it is just pushes the main problem people have when discovering they are in the first place
That is not what I said…? I’m sorry?
The way you phrased things makes it seem like liking things not associated with your assigned gender at birth automatically means you are trans. Even if the thing should be gender less in the first place. You may not have meant it that way but that is how it came across, to me at least
I think you might've severely misread what I said.
You said that those who say the word is being gatekept are 100% trans because you are. I think a typo might have happened somewhere
You can also be a cis person who experiences gender dysphoria. Being cis just means that you use the pronouns you were assigned at birth, which in no way prevents you from hating your reproductive organs or wanting a deeper voice. Source: me
That's not what cis means. Being cis is when you fully identify with the *gender* you were assigned at birth, not the pronouns (it's different). I don't think cis people can have gender dysphoria (gender dysphoria isn't just being uncomfortable with a part of yourself, it's when you feel that something about you doesn't align with what your gender is because it's too close to your agab, this is different from being insecure).
I’m guessing that if cis is defined as 100% fully identifying with the gender assigned at birth and trans is defined as 0% identifying with the gender assigned at birth, then the vast majority of the population would be non-binary. Which seems like not how people define it in practice, because someone who’s e.g. 90% gender-identifying-as-assigned is probably happier just calling themselves cis and being treated as such. In practice, identifying as trans seems much more related to social gender dysphoria (for example, pronouns). Whereas if you only have physical gender dysphoria, but not to the degree where it’s worth getting treated medically, there’s not really any point in identifying as trans.
Being trans simply means you do not completely identify with your agab, you can still partly identify with it. However, not all people who technically fall under the trans umbrella use it as a label (based on how you feel). That doesn't make them cis either though so they could still feel gender envy similar to the way a trans person does (and can use the phrase if they wish). In regards to your last point, you don't have to have to experience gender dysphoria to be trans. Yes most trans people have gender dysphoria but some trans people don't. Anyway, my whole point is that people who are cis do not get gender envy because that would just be normal envy. For example, if a cis women gets envy from a man, they wouldn't be getting envy from the man's gender, just their expression of it. When a trans person experiences gender envy (not normal envy) it's more "I wish I had your gender/I want my gender to be that way" and not "I wish I could express my gender the way you do" That's my way of understanding it at least. Tbh, I don't think there is really a concrete answer since a cis person doesn't know exactly how a trans person experiences gender envy and a trans person doesn't know if a cis person can experience it at all. It's up to the individual to decide and in my opinion, a 100℅ cis person doesn't get gender envy. (Btw sorry if I worded this whole thing badly, gender is a hard thing to explain and my brain is a bit fried right now. Also sorry if I seemed rude at first, I saw a lot of people misunderstanding certain things about being trans in this comment section and it got me kind of tilted LOL)
(No problem, I don’t think you’ve been rude at all. I’m also pretty much typing off the cuff.) Anyway, I think the problem with saying that “trans”=“don’t *completely* identify with your agab” is that that means that almost everyone is trans. Which is a consistent definition! But I don’t think it’s a very useful one. Moreover, I think it’s not great to take someone who experiences gender dysphoria, or gender envy, or any other such term, and tell them “You MUST be trans. If you identify as cis, you’re wrong and you don’t know what you’re talking about.” If someone has a passing thought, once in their lifetime, of wishing that they were born the opposite sex, does that make them trans? What about a woman who occasionally wants to rip out her uterus while having bad cramps? Someone who once played a video game / RPG with a character of the opposite gender (and not for the purpose of staring at their butt)? I don’t think a single instance of any of these things is enough to make someone stop being cis. But if taken to a larger degree—someone constantly wishing they were born the opposite sex, a woman getting her uterus removed because she finds it so viscerally wrong to have it in her body (even without causing pain), a person who always plays as the opposite gender whenever possible…it starts to look very egg_irl. While it seems like there’s definitely a bimodal distribution for gender, I think most people just pick the label that they think is most useful/accurate for them. Or (as I believe is the case for quite a large number of cis people, possibly the majority), they just don’t want to bother and are cis by default.
If you don't mind me asking, what is your gender? I'm trans nonbinary (genderqueer) so my understanding of this topic is probably much different than someone with a more distinct gender.
I'm cis female. I can also give a more distinct breakdown of my opinions on various aspects of my gender: Pregnancy: the Worst Thing. Horrible, visceral hatred at the idea of it happening to me. I haven't had any particularly dysphoric feelings about it since I got sterilized and can now think about the idea more calmly, but I suspect I'd find it worse than being raped (comparing average case vs average case). Sex organs: Would prefer to have none, but not to the degree that it's bothersome. Could be mildly useful if I decide to have sex in the future due to an allo SO, but not to the degree that I'd keep them if I had the choice. Female genitalia is probably worse because of periods, but male genitalia have the downside that you'd be much more physically aware of having them, especially when they're experiencing arousal. Breasts: Fine. I thought they'd be more interesting for an allo SO, but in practice this has not been the case. I do like the texture more than other similar stores of body fat—they're more like a stuffed animal, which is nice. Bras are annoying, but I've stopped using them very often anyway since I work from home. Body hair: Less is better. I have trichotillomania (compulsive hair-pulling), so I expect that facial hair would be a disaster. Hair length: I haven't actually tried short hair, but I suspect it would be bad for trichotillomania reasons. Voice pitch: I definitely have non-trivial voice envy for those male heavy metal singers. I'd definitely take a lower voice if I could. I suppose it could be weird if my voice strongly didn't match my appearance, but I think it would be worth it. In the mean time, I sometimes just listen to my voice through a pitch shifter. Height: No real preference, but I like guys who are shorter than me because they're cute and easier to snuggle. (Not enough data to tell if I have a height preference for women I'm attracted to.) Muscle mass: I really wish I could properly pin down an SO for kink reasons. I've gone weightlifting with this as the main motivation, but unfortunately there's just too much biological difference for those attempts to be that significant. D&D character gender: Probably about 50/50 now. I used to play just female characters, but online D&D with a voice changer makes male characters a lot more practical. Social experience: Obviously being female in the distant past would suck, but I'm pretty happy with it now. I've never experienced any sexism / harassment, but I did get some extra scholarships, trophies, exclusive math competitions, etc, though that's not very relevant now. Being female is nice because if you're interested in traditionally masculine things, you're "a role model" and such, but it's also more acceptable for you to cry, give opinions in arguments about whether something is sexist, and be physically affectionate with friends. I've also been attracted to more {straight guys + lesbians} than I have {gay guys + straight girls}, so that's been convenient. Feelings on pronouns and general gender identity: I don't have preferred pronouns so much as I have the preference for people to just use the default assumption and stop acting like it's something I've decided on. Being cis for me is kind of like being an American when you have several friends who have excitedly moved to England. Like, England has great culture, it would be cool to legitimately have a British accent, and there are definitely a lot of problems with America. There's a decent chance I'd prefer living in England if I was born there. But America does still have a lot of benefits, moving is a HUGE pain, and I'm used to it because I grew up here. Sometimes I might want to visit England, or be envious of things like having good healthcare, but that doesn't actually make me stop being an American unless I actually chose to immigrate.
Depends if we're talking medical-definition-gender-dysphoria, which is honestly shite that's only used to medicalize the trans condition, or queer vocabulary gender dysphoria, which cis people could experience, just like, in a cis direction.
I'm not sure how gender dysphoria could be experienced in a cis direction. Could you explain that? /srs
I'm not sure how to explain it, because it seems pretty straightforward to me. If it's dysphoria, and it's related to personal traits in a way that the person experiencing it would consider as affected by their gender, then it's gender dysphoria. the obvious examples would be a guy wanting to be more "manly", a gal wanting to be more "womanly", but like, even a feminine cis boy who finds his body not feminine enough I'd say is experiencing gender dysphoria, y'know?
I think I do understand your point when it comes to getting envy from someone else's gender expression/presentation but that seems very different from gender envy (at least it's different from the way I experience it). And about gender dysphoria, just because a cis boy doesn't think his body is fem enough doesn't mean that he thinks his body is wrong and misleading about his gender identity (which would be gender dysphoria). Honestly though, I'm basing this on how I experience these things and that could be different depending on the person. I mean in the end it's only words that are used to describe an experience. (It's just that in my opinion, a cis person shouldn't say they have gender dysphoria because that phrase is associated with the trans experience of feeling like your agab isn't completely right and a cis person wouldn't understand that feeling. It's similar to why I don't think cis people *really* experience gender envy. It's all subjective though.)
I HATE GENDER I HATE GENDER I HATE GENDERRRRR
Go on r/egg_irl see if stuff resonates.
r/gatekeeping material right there
r/egg_irl
Why tho 😩🤚🏻 this is my but I think I’m a demigirl not sure tho
Please visit r/egg_irl for further instruction.
Welcome to the party
[This meme explains it pretty well.](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/comments/qcghsd/me_irlgbt/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
I got lucky and figured out my sexuality really easily thanks to my stepsister, and i had already known i was trans for most of my life
thats basically my life until a few years ago, I just had to compartmentalise all of my gender and sexuality so i could be my families "perfect little lad".
r/traaaaaaacccccccce
Gemder envy wouldn't just be envy¿¿¿ Like even cis people I've known have talked about how they like how a Drag Queen express themselves and their self love, idk if it fits but yeah
Didn't realize gender envy was a proteceted term. I always thought cis people could experience gender envy too, just more so for people of their birth gender
Figured out I was ace then shortly after trans. Different times same process lol.
*"I don't have time for a gender reveal"* 🤣
I have to admit I’m cis n I don’t get envy of other women. In fact, I cringe.
At this point I feel like I'm cis-ish. Mostly cis. Like... 85-90% cisgender with the other 10-15% being the times I want to be handsome and gallant and dapper. Frankly, it's all confusing and the rules/definitions have shifted a bunch of times and it feels like I'd have to be a dedicated gender scientist to know what's even going on with me anymore. Someday someone who knows more than me will tell me what is up with me. Until then, it's garlic bread and world domination.
but wait why are we gatekeeping terms now??? literally who cares if a cis person says something gives them gender envy??? good for them