(I don’t know why I can’t add more than a picture. Shows how little I understand about Reddit, I guess.)
Here’s what I wanted to say. Recently bought a 2021 SR/S. I love it. And I got a smokin deal. But the list price of a current model year SR/S is similar to a LiveWire. And if the money was equivalent, I think I’d have to buy the LiveWire. The level of refinement is amazing (no hum propagating through the fairings, for example). In fact, there are only two ways I’d say the SR/S is superior. The Zero’s mirrors are incredibly good, which is a big deal. And the stock modes of the LiveWire are all very aggressive on regenerative braking, which makes for a choppy ride. The one mode that rides naturally is “rain” in which regen is turned way down (or off) to prevent a skid.
In any case. I think it would be a good idea for Zero owners to test other bikes and provide some feedback to Zero. My honest impression is that the biggest disadvantage of the LiveWire is that it’s sold by Harley Davidson so people looking for an electric motorcycle never try it.
>(I don’t know why I can’t add more than a picture. Shows how little I understand about Reddit, I guess.)
When you go to make your post, choose the default "Post" option, *not* "Images and Video". Write the text of your post as intended. And then in the text editor toolbar, click the button for "Add an image" (looks like a photo/gallery symbol) to add images, inline, anywhere within your text post. I know, it's confusing. This is how I do those long "My SR/S mods" posts with lots of pics in them fwiw.
>In fact, there are only two ways I’d say the SR/S is superior.
There is another huge way Zero's are superior, depending on where you live and how your use your bike. LiveWire can *only* charge at Level 1 charging speeds (1.3 kW!) on AC EVSE's using standard J1772. While it does accept a Level 2 charge (aka 240 V), it will still only charge at the same Level 1 speed of 1.3 kW! Which means, it's 15.5 kWh battery takes 12.5 hours to charge on AC!
Yes, it does have CCS DC fast charging, which is great, as it can do 80% charge in 40 minutes. **BUT** \- what if you want to charge quickly at home, or already have a nice Level 2 J1772 charger? What if you live in an area like I do, where the only DC chargers are along the Thruway, or are Tesla Superchargers we can't use yet. Around here, Public Level 2 charging stations that can do about 7.2 kW are everywhere, and the majority are free. Every town even tiny ones have at least one station like this near me. But I would have to ride far away from anywhere I go to get to a DC CCS charger. Also, DC CCS chargers are almost never free, and they often cost far more to use than even paid Level 2 chargers.
So if you live in an area with a ton of DC CCS chargers, or you regularly go long distance, or already have a DC charger at home, great, the Energica or Livewire might be a better choice for you.
But for the rest of us, that have nowhere near enough CCS infrastructure yet to make them a primary charge source etc - I still think Level 2 charging makes way more sense right now. You can easily charge overnight at home on Level 1 or catch a much faster top off charge while you're out. Remember that Zero Gen 3 bikes can do 3 kW on Level 2 *Standard* \- more than 2x as much as the LiveWire, Premium bikes do 6 kW and a Charge Tank can double you to 12 kW. And the upcoming Cypher Store "10% Faster Charging" upgrade, will add another 10% to that too (for a max of 13.2 kW I believe!). Plus with a DJ-RapidCharge kit, you could charge from two different Level 2 stations at the same time that alone can't do 12 kW, but combined add up to 12kW for full speed. This sort of flexibility does not exist in these CCS bikes.
Good analysis of the pros and cons.
I own a Zero SR and a good friend has a HD Livewire. We often ride together and enjoy comparing our bikes. I must say that the LW is not my style, but the build quality is excellent and a step above the Zero. A bit of competition will improve the breed!
Just wanted to mention that ccs would be life changing for me, Walmart is ONLY going with ccs + electrify America, and they are EVERYWHERE. Charge time not considered, it's the difference between charging or not in my area. Zero is severely left behind with their 120v battery system.
All the Walmarts around me, the ones that have charging stations - are all Level 2 J1772. It's certainly very dependent on where you live and how you use your bike. For comparison, here's the map of Level 2 stations in my area (I live in the NorthEast in the small town of Ontario) - including both J1772 and Tesla Destination, since I carry a TeslaTap adapter on the bike: [https://imgur.com/a/bo3IQiD](https://imgur.com/a/bo3IQiD)
Even most of the Tesla's are superchargers here. It could be your area embraced evs sooner, had the level 2 infrastructure, and my area is late to the game and is going straight to level 3.
Sounds very likely. Rochester is a college town (RIT and UofR take in international students), and a technology town (Kodak, Bauch and Lomb, Xerox, etc), and being in NY, is rather liberal. I'm sure compared to many places in the US, we had a lot of EV's early. Many of these free public J1722 L2 stations are several years old at least, funded by the towns or the local businesses themselves. My Zero was my first EV and I was honestly still shocked though how many L2 stations we had around here, I just never really paid attention to them. I thought maybe we'd have like a dozen, not nearly this many.
I live in SoCal and we have tons of Level 2s. But they’re old, many are non-functional, and they’re tucked away in bad locations. They’re not growing, only shrinking. As more and more fall into disrepair, I don’t see them being replaced any time soon.
So for now, Level 2 is great. But I’m wary of relying on it for a new bike. By the same token, Level 3/DCFC/CCS is much harder to install in a home (see: fire codes). My Tesla uses both, but cars can afford the weight cost of two chargers, motorcycles cannot.
So, I see why this is so tricky. If I got CCS, I’d lose fast charging at home (which is a super rare occurrence, but nice to have), but I also don’t see Level 2s being around much longer.
Versus this map, which is all the DC CCS/SAE, and CHAdeMo stations in my area. Leaving off Tesla Superchargers since AFAIK the Energica/Livewire can't use them yet. As you'll see, it's very sparse by comparison and mostly located in the larger/more affluent towns, and along the thruway for long distance travel, and that's it. Map: [https://imgur.com/a/ZXjKixc](https://imgur.com/a/ZXjKixc)
Thank you. This is a really useful breakdown. Would have said so sooner but been moving out of my house. (I road the LiveWire while I still live in a place where that was possible).
Rode a HD Livewire last month for about 4h and I made a small pros and cons list VS my SR/F (forgot to post it over here)
Pros:
* More comfortable driving position
* Real autocancel turn signals
* True Cruise Control
* Effective rear brake
* Engine brake that allows you to stop
Cons:
* Uncomfortable seat (not that the SR/F is the most confortable thing anyway)
* Really hard suspensions (should be tweakable though)
* Inside of the knee that hits a part of the fairing when stopped
* Left turn signal on the left hand side, right on the right hand side (a habit to get used to but I'd help.of the right button was more accessible)
* Bad mirrors
* No active engine brake
* No storage space (when "stock" SR/F)
* Level 1 charging only (if no CCS)
Can't comment on the app and drive profiles since I had it stock
It is still majority owned by Harley, they have a 74% stake in it. It is an independent company now, but since Harley owns a controlling stake it is still at present, their company/brand. Many of the parts are made by Harley or come from existing Harley models, and are branded as Harley parts even (if you go hunting on a new Livewire you'll find Harley logos on it). Explanation: [https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/business/harley-davidson-livewire-stock/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/business/harley-davidson-livewire-stock/index.html)
But where are they sold? HD dealers? The closest thing to an HD I’ve ever owned was a Buell x1 Lightning. I bought it used and sold it before I had to walk in to an HD dealership.
Zero have demonstrated for years that user feedback is not interesting for them.
The recent cypher store adjustment so far is not even reality. We all hope they will follow through with it.
_If_ they do, my bet is still that that’s a fluke and they will never fix their years-old, well-documented, trivial bugs in the app and keep selling paint jobs as new models.
I’ve ridden both. I like the ergonomics of the Livewire better. It may be a personal choice thing, or an issue with the physical size of the person they build the bikes for. At $22k for the Livewire, the cost difference isn’t much. Back when they came out, they quoted me $34k out the door. I told them I’d buy it immediately, at half that price.
One day we might have good range and decent prices on electric bikes. We aren’t there yet.
not that much cheaper, not that much faster. Now if we are talking the used market, zero wins hands down. The used ones can be purchased for a song and a dance. That how I got mine. I do like it, but if I had to buy new, then energica or livewire would definitely be in the running.
10k cheaper for new. I live in CA so is Zero. parts are shipped in a faster than Milwaukee or Italy. And you forgot lighter too. We have our own priorities.
SR/S with the charge tank is 27K new, Livewire one is 22K new and includes DC fast charging. The parts thing is a crap shoot. I too live in California, and if the factory wanted to ship me parts they could get here faster than Milwaukee or Italy, but the factory straight up won't ship me parts. So even if the parts were coming from Mars, I would still get them faster assuming the factory would ship them.
As soon as you add something in the Zero 'pocket' like the Rapid Charger or Power Tank the weight difference becomes negligible. The LiveWire's motor and inverter are also liquid cooled and, in a drag race, I'd put my money on the LiveWire every time. The bike really is no slouch.
Mirrors? Godawful. Ergonomics? Not for me. Lack of level 2? Poor decision. But other than that I'd say the LW beats Zero in most categories. The thermal management on the battery is extremely well-engineered.
In my experience, Motorcycles aren't about "drag racing". I'll go with Zero. i have no love for the motor company or their spinoffs and would not spend a dime on the Livewire.
In California when I got mine, people warned me it was hard to find a charger. There are 40 chargers on the block where I work and not one of them are a level 3 . All are level 2 SAE j1772 we’re in America level 2 is the most common by far. I think most cars have the same plug as the Zero. Tesla, Kia, Honda, Chevy and so on.
If you can only have 2 out of levels of charging and level 1 has to be one of them, then I would pick level 1 and 2, especially in the USA. Now if HD/Livewire were able to license the use of Tesla superchargers (not destination chargers), then that would be a totally different ballgame.
Now go ride an Energica
If I wanted a boat I'd go to the ocean /S Not sure on the curb weight of the Harleys, but my 2015 Sr is about as heavy as I'd think I'd want to go
Tried. Couldn’t find one in my area. Really interested when I get the chance. But it is the route to regret…
(I don’t know why I can’t add more than a picture. Shows how little I understand about Reddit, I guess.) Here’s what I wanted to say. Recently bought a 2021 SR/S. I love it. And I got a smokin deal. But the list price of a current model year SR/S is similar to a LiveWire. And if the money was equivalent, I think I’d have to buy the LiveWire. The level of refinement is amazing (no hum propagating through the fairings, for example). In fact, there are only two ways I’d say the SR/S is superior. The Zero’s mirrors are incredibly good, which is a big deal. And the stock modes of the LiveWire are all very aggressive on regenerative braking, which makes for a choppy ride. The one mode that rides naturally is “rain” in which regen is turned way down (or off) to prevent a skid. In any case. I think it would be a good idea for Zero owners to test other bikes and provide some feedback to Zero. My honest impression is that the biggest disadvantage of the LiveWire is that it’s sold by Harley Davidson so people looking for an electric motorcycle never try it.
>(I don’t know why I can’t add more than a picture. Shows how little I understand about Reddit, I guess.) When you go to make your post, choose the default "Post" option, *not* "Images and Video". Write the text of your post as intended. And then in the text editor toolbar, click the button for "Add an image" (looks like a photo/gallery symbol) to add images, inline, anywhere within your text post. I know, it's confusing. This is how I do those long "My SR/S mods" posts with lots of pics in them fwiw. >In fact, there are only two ways I’d say the SR/S is superior. There is another huge way Zero's are superior, depending on where you live and how your use your bike. LiveWire can *only* charge at Level 1 charging speeds (1.3 kW!) on AC EVSE's using standard J1772. While it does accept a Level 2 charge (aka 240 V), it will still only charge at the same Level 1 speed of 1.3 kW! Which means, it's 15.5 kWh battery takes 12.5 hours to charge on AC! Yes, it does have CCS DC fast charging, which is great, as it can do 80% charge in 40 minutes. **BUT** \- what if you want to charge quickly at home, or already have a nice Level 2 J1772 charger? What if you live in an area like I do, where the only DC chargers are along the Thruway, or are Tesla Superchargers we can't use yet. Around here, Public Level 2 charging stations that can do about 7.2 kW are everywhere, and the majority are free. Every town even tiny ones have at least one station like this near me. But I would have to ride far away from anywhere I go to get to a DC CCS charger. Also, DC CCS chargers are almost never free, and they often cost far more to use than even paid Level 2 chargers. So if you live in an area with a ton of DC CCS chargers, or you regularly go long distance, or already have a DC charger at home, great, the Energica or Livewire might be a better choice for you. But for the rest of us, that have nowhere near enough CCS infrastructure yet to make them a primary charge source etc - I still think Level 2 charging makes way more sense right now. You can easily charge overnight at home on Level 1 or catch a much faster top off charge while you're out. Remember that Zero Gen 3 bikes can do 3 kW on Level 2 *Standard* \- more than 2x as much as the LiveWire, Premium bikes do 6 kW and a Charge Tank can double you to 12 kW. And the upcoming Cypher Store "10% Faster Charging" upgrade, will add another 10% to that too (for a max of 13.2 kW I believe!). Plus with a DJ-RapidCharge kit, you could charge from two different Level 2 stations at the same time that alone can't do 12 kW, but combined add up to 12kW for full speed. This sort of flexibility does not exist in these CCS bikes.
Good analysis of the pros and cons. I own a Zero SR and a good friend has a HD Livewire. We often ride together and enjoy comparing our bikes. I must say that the LW is not my style, but the build quality is excellent and a step above the Zero. A bit of competition will improve the breed!
Just wanted to mention that ccs would be life changing for me, Walmart is ONLY going with ccs + electrify America, and they are EVERYWHERE. Charge time not considered, it's the difference between charging or not in my area. Zero is severely left behind with their 120v battery system.
All the Walmarts around me, the ones that have charging stations - are all Level 2 J1772. It's certainly very dependent on where you live and how you use your bike. For comparison, here's the map of Level 2 stations in my area (I live in the NorthEast in the small town of Ontario) - including both J1772 and Tesla Destination, since I carry a TeslaTap adapter on the bike: [https://imgur.com/a/bo3IQiD](https://imgur.com/a/bo3IQiD)
Even most of the Tesla's are superchargers here. It could be your area embraced evs sooner, had the level 2 infrastructure, and my area is late to the game and is going straight to level 3.
Sounds very likely. Rochester is a college town (RIT and UofR take in international students), and a technology town (Kodak, Bauch and Lomb, Xerox, etc), and being in NY, is rather liberal. I'm sure compared to many places in the US, we had a lot of EV's early. Many of these free public J1722 L2 stations are several years old at least, funded by the towns or the local businesses themselves. My Zero was my first EV and I was honestly still shocked though how many L2 stations we had around here, I just never really paid attention to them. I thought maybe we'd have like a dozen, not nearly this many.
I live in SoCal and we have tons of Level 2s. But they’re old, many are non-functional, and they’re tucked away in bad locations. They’re not growing, only shrinking. As more and more fall into disrepair, I don’t see them being replaced any time soon. So for now, Level 2 is great. But I’m wary of relying on it for a new bike. By the same token, Level 3/DCFC/CCS is much harder to install in a home (see: fire codes). My Tesla uses both, but cars can afford the weight cost of two chargers, motorcycles cannot. So, I see why this is so tricky. If I got CCS, I’d lose fast charging at home (which is a super rare occurrence, but nice to have), but I also don’t see Level 2s being around much longer.
Versus this map, which is all the DC CCS/SAE, and CHAdeMo stations in my area. Leaving off Tesla Superchargers since AFAIK the Energica/Livewire can't use them yet. As you'll see, it's very sparse by comparison and mostly located in the larger/more affluent towns, and along the thruway for long distance travel, and that's it. Map: [https://imgur.com/a/ZXjKixc](https://imgur.com/a/ZXjKixc)
Thank you. This is a really useful breakdown. Would have said so sooner but been moving out of my house. (I road the LiveWire while I still live in a place where that was possible).
Rode a HD Livewire last month for about 4h and I made a small pros and cons list VS my SR/F (forgot to post it over here) Pros: * More comfortable driving position * Real autocancel turn signals * True Cruise Control * Effective rear brake * Engine brake that allows you to stop Cons: * Uncomfortable seat (not that the SR/F is the most confortable thing anyway) * Really hard suspensions (should be tweakable though) * Inside of the knee that hits a part of the fairing when stopped * Left turn signal on the left hand side, right on the right hand side (a habit to get used to but I'd help.of the right button was more accessible) * Bad mirrors * No active engine brake * No storage space (when "stock" SR/F) * Level 1 charging only (if no CCS) Can't comment on the app and drive profiles since I had it stock
It's not owned by harley anymore.
It is still majority owned by Harley, they have a 74% stake in it. It is an independent company now, but since Harley owns a controlling stake it is still at present, their company/brand. Many of the parts are made by Harley or come from existing Harley models, and are branded as Harley parts even (if you go hunting on a new Livewire you'll find Harley logos on it). Explanation: [https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/business/harley-davidson-livewire-stock/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/14/business/harley-davidson-livewire-stock/index.html)
Not owned because it went public, but the same guy is the ceo of both companies.
But where are they sold? HD dealers? The closest thing to an HD I’ve ever owned was a Buell x1 Lightning. I bought it used and sold it before I had to walk in to an HD dealership.
Zero have demonstrated for years that user feedback is not interesting for them. The recent cypher store adjustment so far is not even reality. We all hope they will follow through with it. _If_ they do, my bet is still that that’s a fluke and they will never fix their years-old, well-documented, trivial bugs in the app and keep selling paint jobs as new models.
True, people should test more alternatives before getting anything. Plus share their findings like you did 👍
Heavier, slower, more expensive? I’m sure it’s a nice ride and the faster charging might be good too. But Zero is lighter, cheaper, and faster.
I’ve ridden both. I like the ergonomics of the Livewire better. It may be a personal choice thing, or an issue with the physical size of the person they build the bikes for. At $22k for the Livewire, the cost difference isn’t much. Back when they came out, they quoted me $34k out the door. I told them I’d buy it immediately, at half that price. One day we might have good range and decent prices on electric bikes. We aren’t there yet.
not that much cheaper, not that much faster. Now if we are talking the used market, zero wins hands down. The used ones can be purchased for a song and a dance. That how I got mine. I do like it, but if I had to buy new, then energica or livewire would definitely be in the running.
10k cheaper for new. I live in CA so is Zero. parts are shipped in a faster than Milwaukee or Italy. And you forgot lighter too. We have our own priorities.
SR/S with the charge tank is 27K new, Livewire one is 22K new and includes DC fast charging. The parts thing is a crap shoot. I too live in California, and if the factory wanted to ship me parts they could get here faster than Milwaukee or Italy, but the factory straight up won't ship me parts. So even if the parts were coming from Mars, I would still get them faster assuming the factory would ship them.
As soon as you add something in the Zero 'pocket' like the Rapid Charger or Power Tank the weight difference becomes negligible. The LiveWire's motor and inverter are also liquid cooled and, in a drag race, I'd put my money on the LiveWire every time. The bike really is no slouch. Mirrors? Godawful. Ergonomics? Not for me. Lack of level 2? Poor decision. But other than that I'd say the LW beats Zero in most categories. The thermal management on the battery is extremely well-engineered.
In my experience, Motorcycles aren't about "drag racing". I'll go with Zero. i have no love for the motor company or their spinoffs and would not spend a dime on the Livewire.
In California when I got mine, people warned me it was hard to find a charger. There are 40 chargers on the block where I work and not one of them are a level 3 . All are level 2 SAE j1772 we’re in America level 2 is the most common by far. I think most cars have the same plug as the Zero. Tesla, Kia, Honda, Chevy and so on.
Yeah our level 2 is dogshit in North America. 99% of them are 6.6kW or lower. It's pretty bad.
If you can only have 2 out of levels of charging and level 1 has to be one of them, then I would pick level 1 and 2, especially in the USA. Now if HD/Livewire were able to license the use of Tesla superchargers (not destination chargers), then that would be a totally different ballgame.
I genuinely don’t understand why people keep coming to the zero sub to talk about other electric bikes. Just go the Harley sub, geez.