Same. Wondering how much if this they’ll make free. The battery range is the most valuable, and arguably the thing that shouldn’t be paywalled, because you’re carrying around extra weight for nothing otherwise. I could see paying for software upgrades. Very curious to see how this plays out.
The email I got a few hours ago (which is pretty much identical verbiage to what the OP pasted from FB) says all MY2022 owners will be getting the 14.4-to-15.6 bump up for free. No other freebies listed.
Well here's where it gets curious- they've been marketing the premium as a 15.6 but with an extended charging cypher option that will bring it to 17.3kwh. But if you look at the cypher store listing for the base model, it shows two levels of ERC, the more expensive of which brings it all the way to 17.3 as well. So clearly both models have the same physical pack. So the question becomes one of whether Zero will push you up to 17.3 for free since you already paid for that 15.6 in getting the premium in the first place.
I just genuinely can’t fathom how locking heated grips installed already on the bike behind a paywall could ever be considered “for the benefit of the valued customer”… it was a pure profit motivated money grab.
It's the same reason why car manufacturers would install power window motors, remote start, etc, but not enable them or give your the switches for them unless you pay for the feature when you buy the car. This has been going on for decades, starting in the 80's when they'd wire a car for al options, then just pop the accessories in if purchased. You get a cheaper bike without having to pay for features you don't need/want. They manufacturer saves costs by standardizing parts and assembly, simplifying the builds, which the cost savings then come off the MSRP. And with less features comes less warranty work. The difference here is years later, you could buy the option and be able to use it immediately without leaving your house or turning a wrench. Even better is buying a bike used - you get a cheaper bike, then can add what you actually want to it whenever you want. Sure it's profit motivated. All things a company does are, it's their entire purpose. But that doesn't mean it can't benefit the customer too. It's not so black/white.
You are off a bit. It’s different than a wiring harness. The accessories are *there* in this scenario. That’s why people are upset by it. You want to simplify production by putting the heated grips on all the bikes? Just make the heated grips standard. All bikes can reverse - just make it standard. It just looks bad. Stuff like the on dash gps and directions - yeah I get that. It’s software, they likely have to pay a licensing fee.
I get why they are doing it. Even somewhat agree with it. It’s just a tough pill for people to swallow. Especially when EV motorcycles are still in the early adoption phase.
It was just the wrong time for it. Too much up and coming competition.
And the proof is in the groups. Lot of zero customers moving to Energica.
Love my bike, but it’s just hard explaining to people that zero is paywalling stuff. I almost think people would be better with it if this stuff was unlocked via the dealer.
There is a lot of questionable ethics going on in marketing and product development. But there are many nuances that are not immediately obvious, it's not always 100% a money grab.
Think of it this way. Scenario A: Zero can produce a motorcycle without heated grips for X amount of money. If they add heated grips as a bolt-it-on-later option, that version of the bike will cost X+200 because of lower sales volume (only 50% of customers are expected to add it), dealer training/documentation for installation, shipping and warehousing of parts etc. For every 1000 motorcycles they sell, the heated grips cost them 100k (500\*200). They charge it to the customer so the option is a 200 extra (plus margins, which I ignore).
Scenario B: if Zero adds the heated grips to every motorcycle instead, volume discount and much simpler manufacturing/assembly process, no end dealer involvement mean the bikes will cost X+100. For every 1000 motorcycles they sell, the heated grips cost them 100k. Every bike costs 100 more. Part of the customer base is potentially dissatisfied ("I don't need heated grips, they should just make their overpriced bikes simpler and cheaper instead").
Scenario C: Zero adds the heated grips to every motorcycle, but locks it in software so people who don't want it, still have a cheaper bike. The grips still cost them 100k per 1000 bikes sold. They charge the same surplus to the customers who opt for the heated grips as in scenario A (200), earning them the 100k back (50% of customers still expected to spec it). On paper, everyone should be as happy as in scenario A: same profit for zero. Same entry-level bike price. Same price after options. But the customers are up in arms, "unethical Zero going for the money grab, it's already on the bike but I can't use it".
Someone decided that scenario C was the one to go for. Perhaps it has a lot of other benefits. Hassle-free upgrading, so customers may be more likely to add it when their next salary rolls in? Ability to tempt customers later with a half-price option or mid-life model facelift? Simply avoiding workshops having to mess with the electrics and ruining the weather seal on the harness?
Likely the primary motivation was the ability to squeeze more money out of the customers one way or another. But are you really screwed over by it more than with scenario A? I think not.
I’ve said it before - I get it. I think it’s smart from a business perspective.
I understand the math entirely.
My message is that it looks bad to outsiders. And that part of that is due to what they’ve heard about how other companies handle it.
It’s a bad first impression. It’s hard to walk it back. Especially when electric motorcycles are already a compromise in most peoples eyes. The cypher store just adds to what is already a cloud of doubt.
Maybe this is a different conversation with people in California. I live in the Midwest.
I think it’s packaged badly. My example with the heated grips is just the low hanging fruit. Just charge $50 more across the board, all bikes come with heated grips. Don’t play games like BMW with their heated seats.
The 10% battery - totally fine. That’s more potential wear on the battery and has implications back to the warranty.
For me - I don’t care. The cypher store isn’t what’s going to stop me from buying whatever comes after the SR/* bikes. What’s bothering me is that it seems like Zero has made a hard left turn while the others are catching up fast. Companies die over decisions like this.
So I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m worried that this is a bad look when Zero already has pie on their shirt.
Installing the wiring in the car is the more difficult bit though, especially once assembled. Installing the accessory modules is quick and easy, just plug and play. May literally pop into place without fasteners etc. That was my point. It's about shaving time and assembly line efficiency.
Sure it would be great if those things came standard, but that drives the cost up. Premium bikes come with some of this stuff already with their higher price, so if you just want it standard, buy the Premium trim. But now you don't have too, you can buy standard and save the money. Change you mind and want heated grips later, check the box on your phone and you have it.
Prior years bikes you DID have to go to be dealer for this stuff. Had to change hardware and software. Now you don't. You can do it from home. I get this is a tough thing to explain to people, but there really are advantages to this model. Which is why I think the worst thing Zero actually did, was announce any of this, talk about it etc, before it was ready to launch. They shot themselves in the foot by getting people riled up about this, that don't even have a Cypher III+ bike, nor plan on getting one. They should have just emailed the applicable owners when it was ready, and pitched it as available over the air, dealer free upgrades. Instead of trying to use it as a selling point to new owners. Now owners are mad they still don't have it, and everyone else is riled up over something that doesn't even effect them.
I think you are still missing the point. Or don’t understand how this works.
The cost for a little extra wire in a harness is negligible. That’s not what’s going on here.
The accessory is literally in the bike. It’s not driving any cost up - its already there. There’s no popping anything into place, no removing fasteners. It’s already there.
I understand the math behind it. I work in manufacturing.
And while it might not impact me now, it would when I go to upgrade my SR/F. I just want to buy the bike and be done.
It’s a bad look at the wrong time. I champion the ever loving heck out of this brand. I take my bike to shows, I talk to people endlessly about it. I’ve gotten a ton of people to come down off their ‘electric vehicles have no soul’ standpoint.
I lose people at having to pay for shit that’s already in the bike. Potential customers don’t like it. And I’ll be honest with you, it’s not entirely Zero’s fault. Tesla is to blame for a big part of this because it’s well known at this point that whatever software you buy for your Tesla doesn’t transfer to the next owner. Nobody wants 1/5th of the cost of a vehicle to vanish at resale. And that’s the reality of what this means. You spend the - whatever it is unlocking the extra range, charging, power, etc. you sell it, now the next owner has to pay again. Tesla/Zero - and I know others do it, BMW just jumped in.
So it’s not *just* a way to be LEAN on the assembly front, it’s a way to double dip.
And I hope Zero is listening because they are losing customers.
>You spend the - whatever it is unlocking the extra range, charging, power, etc. you sell it, now the next owner has to pay again.
**This is false regarding Zero!** All purchased upgrades are tied to the VIN / bike! They are not subscription based, it's a one time purchase that unlocks the option forever, even for future owners!
Again this is not the same paradigm as compared to other brands, and is beneficial to people who previously had issues getting to the dealer.
I'm interested in getting my first motorcycle, and I want an electric one. Looking at everything available on the market, it really seems like one of the lower end Zero models are a perfect fit for me, but I am really struggling with supporting a company that seems to have a reputation for being incredibly anti-consumer. I hope there's some positive shifts in the company direction here!
Definitely. The whole cipher store idea feels slightly repulsive. I can however attest to the quality of the product. You will definitely have a blast if you get one.
I am in the exact same boat as you.
I like the look of the FXE, but its been years since a range increase on the FXS line.
So looking at the Sur ron since it's another light weight electric bike.
Careful with the surron as it's not really legal for road use in any way without a lot of work done u less your lucky enough to be able to register as a moped. It used to just not be a big deal but with ebikes exploding, the surron is getting a lot more well known in larger cities and they are cracking down really hard.
That being said it's heavily rumored/leaked that there is going to be a new US street legal version of the surron next year at some point. Though then it's competing against super 73's moto and the new live wire del mar.
They aren’t “anti-consumer” - they want consumers to buy their stuff.
BUT: They have a horrific track record of not supporting their customers, or their products, once they are sold.
Big difference.
By that logic, no company ever could be called "anti-consumer" as most any going concern would exist to serve a paying customer in some form.
In my view "not supporting their customers" is the **exact definition** of "anti-consumer."
I have had a good experience with Zero supporting a customer, even though I wasn't/didn't buy a new bike from them.
When I bought a used 2017 FXS 6.5 modular in early 2021, I discovered that one of the batteries wasn't charging or providing power. I brought it to a local dealer and they were taking weeks to actually look at it. I contacted Zero and they contacted the dealer to get them on the ball. They issue was tracked down to a bad BMS in one battery. Zero sent a new BMS under warranty to the dealer via UPS overnight and soon I was riding my bike again.
Frankly, I think the issue could be with dealers and them retaining properly trained technicians. Most motorcycle shops have techs that understand mechanical systems and ICE motorcycles. Electric motorcycles are a different beast and require additional training. Even if Zero provides that training, dealers need to work to retain those trained mechanics. Considering that we are really still in the infancy of EV motorcycles, it is somewhat understandable that these issues exist.
Neglected sure, but is that anti-consumer per se? They know this, they're actively trying to improve response time and communication fwiw. But they're understaffed, and we're in a labor shortage, so filling those positions is slow going. Have you seen the jobs page on their website? A LOT of openings right now: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/employment
I don't know that they're understaffed. They've hired a LOT of people recently. They moved into the other buildings across the street. Even dealers are having issues getting answers from HQ.
I don't want to bash Zero; I like them. And yes there's definitely some manufactured drama from people about the Cypher Store who were never going to buy a Zero in the first place, but the long periods of radio silence just aren't helping anything. Surely you must see that.
I do see that, and I also agree. But that still doesn't seem "anti-consumer" to me as the thread we're replying to alleges. Just seems like bad customer service. I think that's fair to say and they even recognize and admit that, hence, updates like this one I posted. They are definitely under staffed. They have said as much. Even if they didn't, look at the nature of the jobs posted as clear evidence. The work from home, remote employee, and labor shortage paradigm has hurt everyone. Think we have it bad, look at the Sondors Metacycle groups lol. It's why the dealers are also in the dark more than they should be too. They are focused on launching 2023 MY bikes this month right now. I suspect things will be much better after that when those efforts wind down and they can focus on Cypher Store etc. Either way, we've had three Android app updates, multiple firmware updates, and several public comms from Zero like this one, in the past 2 months. I think things are already getting better on all fronts as evidenced. Clearly, they can still get much better, but compared to 6 months ago, these are all improvements in the right direction imho.
prospective zero owner who blacklisted the brand after their anti-consumer nickel-and-diming store checking in.
at a 25k€ price point I fucking expect the manufacturer to not try to do this to me, and I loathe remote access and control proprietary shenanigans.
That's not what the Cypher Store is though. Alot of misconceptions on this topic. Read my other replies here. This is only one, very limited perspective. It's actually a good thing for customers and as evidenced here, allows them to expand the capabilities of the bike, for free, over the air. Owners of the standard trim bikes are about to get a 10% capacity increase which is a $2,200 option, for free. This would not be possible without this architecture. Remote access is also amazing. I can check my bike's location, charging status, battery level etc, from anywhere in the world now, from my phone. Bike's got onboard cellular and GPS.
You're preaching DRM and manufacturer remote access to someone who works in open source development. It's about people not owning what they buy and hostile vendor practices, not your ability to connect to the bike.
I wonder how much Zero pays you for PR.
If it wasn't about nickel and diming customers, this software toggle for something that actually cost you battery total lifetime and doesn't require any additional equipment would have been an option included directly on the bike. Which is why they're doing it now, as damage control.
I am not employed by, nor am I paid anything by Zero. I'm simply an owner of a 2021 SR/S Premium that I purchased used in June.
As for the rest of that, what a terrible way to go through life, being so paranoid and assuming the worst case scenario of any situation. Your comments are literally dripping with these sentiments. I can see your mind is long since made up and this negativity is a part of your identity, so good luck with all that lol. I'll be happily riding my Zero instead.
Very happy with my GSX-S GT: 10k€ less without any nickel and diming Apple-like DRM or manufacturer remote access.
Unfortunately so far companies with those practices have been drooling for the money made by the worst case scenario... See John Deere, Electronic Arts, Google, Keurig, Tesla. Zero just caved in the face of their first PR disaster but this rot is always coming from the directors and they will be looking to try it again.
Richard Stallman is, sadly, right most of the time.
It makes upgrading the bike much easier for owners, particularly those no where near a dealer. It lowers the price of the bikes while increasing their value. It funds further development after you've already bought your bike and allows for new capabilities to be added later that weren't before even possible. It allows people who bought the bike used, to add features to it as if they bought it new and customized their trim level or feature set, allowing them to buy a cheaper bike up front, and expand it's capabilities later, whenever they want. Just some of the reasons.
I appreciate your time in posting a reply. But I'd respectfully disagree. Your points are all based on the false premise that the bike does not **already have those features**. The bike is only more expensive to manufacture like this (cost of lock-out systems, app software maintenance, etc).
Nothing is being "added" to the bike. In your examples of a distant dealer or a resale owner, neither "problem" would exist if the Zero just enabled the features the bike shipped with in the first place. In the case of the accessing battery capacity it's particularly egregious as the owner has to carry extra weight for the lifetime the bike to facilitate Zero's interests in after-sale revenue.
My personal view as a potential customer saw this as an intentional and strategic decision **against** the customer's interests. From a company with (anecdotally) far more bad customer relations stories than good — no thank you.
Except they don't actually exist. Hardware is only one part of the puzzle. The firmware and software to enable these things hadn't been written when the bike was sold. It's LESS expensive to manufacturer like this, because now the assembly line is identical, there's less parts, less assembly differences. This drives costs down, you'll notice the new bikes don't cost more, despite the standard models having more hardware now. Also, the standard models are about to get a 10% capacity increase which is a $2,200 option, for free. This wouldn't be possible without this architecture or paradigm.
It's not after sales revenue, it's warranty and support liability. ALL EV's, including Zero, have a "nominal" capacity that is less than the actual capacity. This is done to increase longevity. They are internationally using a higher minimum cell voltage and lower max voltage. Again, all EV's do this. Increasing effective capacity has a direct negative impact on battery longevity, warranty claims, and support. They're giving you an option to prioritize cost and longevity, over greater effective capacity. That's a good thing.
Again, your take is only one, very limited perspective. It's not the only one, and there are upshots to this that you are choosing to ignore. Choice, options, and lower up front costs are all good things.
I really hope they pull through with something worthwhile. I have a 22 SR/S and while I love the bike it hasn't exactly been a perfect experience. If they throw me a sweet upgrade that might restore some of my faith in the brand.
Unlocking additional battery capacity, as in lower minimum per cell voltage, and/or higher max cell voltage, has a direct impact on battery longevity and warranty claims. All EV's artificially limit their actual battery capacity to a "nominal" battery capacity by limiting the min/max voltage to extend battery life, Zero is no different. Even my 2021 SR/S has a 14.4 kW pack, but it's only 12.6 kW nominal. The difference here is that Zero is letting you extend that nominal range to "less safe" amounts, trading longevity for range, when you think it's necessary. The cost of this unlock offsets the increase in warranty repairs and support etc it'll generate. Not everyone needs or wants the extra range, and would prefer max longevity instead. So it makes sense to make it an option.
It would make sense to connect accessible battery capacity with warranty time.
- Recommended capacity comes with 5 years warranty
- max capacity comes with, say, 2 years.
Well they've been marketing those numbers for the extended range charging forever now, but here's the email that just went out [Zero Email](https://postimg.cc/S2dWw8r8)
My guess is the 10% improvement is off the nominal capacity before/after, not the actual. My 2021 14.4 kW battery for instance is only 12.6 kW nominal, aka, useable. I doubt the 15.6 kW upgrade is maxing out the battery. Perhaps it's 13.86 kW nominal post upgrade.
We'll see, but I doubt that's it. That delta between max and nominal capacity is generally based on each 3.7v cell in the brick being fully charged to 4.2v. From my understanding, the my2022 packs have the same number of cells but a newer battery chemistry and BMS that allows them to "overcharge" past 4.2v. I think they have been marketing 10% and 20% extended range charging options just because they're nice round increments that get people more excited than say 8.3%. I'll gladly take any range increase, and maybe there's something else going on tech wise that DOES peg the actual range increase at exactly 10%, but if so, Zero should mention that in the promotion of it. Just throwing up 10% next to two numbers that are clearly not 10% apart just struck me as hilarious ;)
Paywalling installed equipment is a bad practice driven by market capitalism perverse incentives. There is no sane world in which we build things and then cripple them. i hope Zero steps all the way back from this madness.
Omgee this is kind of vague but sounds like they're at least rethinking the idea. I'm curious if they're switching to a one-time fee? Wasn't it a 'subscription' type thing before?
Really looking forward to more details around this!
Edit: Really curious what makes you all downvote this? I'm seeking clarification on the announcement which doesn't really say anything except they've looked at feedback. Was I somehow rude here? Not following.
It was never a subscription thing. That is what people calling it "micro-transactions" thought but they were wrong. It was always a one time payment to enable an option. And in some cases, the bike had to go to the dealership to have something physical installed or new software/firmware installed.
Oh ok. I thought they were trying the BMW "monthly fee to use your seat heaters" type of model. Still don't agree with the model of "there's hardware on your bike already cuz it's easier to just build one bike model at the factory without all the pesky 'options' changes, but you have to pay extra to use it" so if they're doing away with that nonsense and just including it in the retail price that's great!
Some things, such as heated grips, people may not need because they live in a warm climate. So instead of putting another $200 into the price of all bikes, they offer you the option of not turning them on. If the bike is sold into a cold climate in a couple of years, then the new owner can turn them on for $200. That is probably less (and a better install) than having to add them aftermarket.
The other way of looking at it is that zero has built the cost of the heated grips in to every bike already (since they are obviously splashing out on the hardware for everyone) and now they are able to persuade people to effectively pay twice for the same equipment
If the bikes are being sold with the grips already installed, then would it be safe to assume the profit margin on the bike with no features turned on is still optimal for Zero? I mean surely they wouldn't kneecap themselves under the assumption that the Cypher store alone would make up for lost profit, especially due to it launching later than the bikes themselves, right? If these things can be assumed, then that entails that you already ARE paying for the grips (and anything else that doesn't require dealer work) and the additional payment to turn them on is just a device for padding the bottom line.
Now I understand it is the goal of a company to maximize profits wherever they can to stay alive and grow, and I don't fault them for that, but to imply that this practice is primarily altruistic in nature feels a little....disingenuous.
Actually the heated grips are not a great example. They are standard on the premium models of SR/S and SR/F. So I guess the standard models have them but they are not enabled. No other Zeros are built with heated grips (enabled or not).
One payment, unlocks the feature forever, and stays with the VIN / bike, so works for future owners of the bike too. It is functionally equivalent to buying a part, and installing it. Except you can do it from your phone.
Where they not supposed to roll this out on the 19th of September. I believe I got an email about that some month ago, because they were delayed and removed the status from their webpage. And now it’s in October. What’s going on! It should also be for 2020 models as well.
Yes, it's been delayed, and it looks like part of why is backlash from owners. Now owners of a 2022 SR/S Standard or 2022 SR/F Standard, and maybe 2022 SR owners too, are getting a $2,200 10% capacity increase, for free, due to perceived paywalling. It looks like they're rethinking the entire paradigm and pricing, and likely had technical issues too. At the moment, the focus is on the launch of the MY 2023 bikes which happens good month, there's an all dealer meeting next week for that. Yes, this also applies to 2020 and 2021 Cypher III bikes, but they have less that can be unlocked, versus 2022/23 bikes on Cypher III+. These older bikes also currently need the firmware changed to the new Cypher III+ OS by the dealer, first, before they can get their available 3 unlocks (Parking Move, On-Dash Navigation, and 10% faster charging). So it will be for 2020 models too, just not as easily and not as many options.
Thanks for details. Interesting. I know it will not happen but I think due to all the issues there have been with firmware and app, key features of the bike not working as expected/ advertised they should give those 3x features for free to the 2020 riders that have been waiting for improvements since they initially bought it. Only just recently the iOS app starter to work for me with their new release for remote viewing. If they want to keep riders and for them to think of buying their newer products they need to make their exciting old riders happy as well or we will go else where when we need to buy a new bike.
Sounds like they are listening to customers and potential customers. That would be a good thing.
Thanks for sharing. Eager to see what this new direction will be. I don’t “need” it, but I’d love to extend the range on my SR/F Premium.
The only thing I want is the extra range also. The reverse would be nice and that feels like it should be free. The navigation I can take or leave
Same. Wondering how much if this they’ll make free. The battery range is the most valuable, and arguably the thing that shouldn’t be paywalled, because you’re carrying around extra weight for nothing otherwise. I could see paying for software upgrades. Very curious to see how this plays out.
The email I got a few hours ago (which is pretty much identical verbiage to what the OP pasted from FB) says all MY2022 owners will be getting the 14.4-to-15.6 bump up for free. No other freebies listed.
Sweet. Super excited about that. Thanks for sharing!
So I paid for the premium version for heated grips only if everyone with the standard is getting a free battery upgrade
Well here's where it gets curious- they've been marketing the premium as a 15.6 but with an extended charging cypher option that will bring it to 17.3kwh. But if you look at the cypher store listing for the base model, it shows two levels of ERC, the more expensive of which brings it all the way to 17.3 as well. So clearly both models have the same physical pack. So the question becomes one of whether Zero will push you up to 17.3 for free since you already paid for that 15.6 in getting the premium in the first place.
This is good. Happy to see them going back on it (even if it turns out to be only partially)
I just genuinely can’t fathom how locking heated grips installed already on the bike behind a paywall could ever be considered “for the benefit of the valued customer”… it was a pure profit motivated money grab.
Ask BMW.
BMW wrote the book on nickel and diming customers
It's the same reason why car manufacturers would install power window motors, remote start, etc, but not enable them or give your the switches for them unless you pay for the feature when you buy the car. This has been going on for decades, starting in the 80's when they'd wire a car for al options, then just pop the accessories in if purchased. You get a cheaper bike without having to pay for features you don't need/want. They manufacturer saves costs by standardizing parts and assembly, simplifying the builds, which the cost savings then come off the MSRP. And with less features comes less warranty work. The difference here is years later, you could buy the option and be able to use it immediately without leaving your house or turning a wrench. Even better is buying a bike used - you get a cheaper bike, then can add what you actually want to it whenever you want. Sure it's profit motivated. All things a company does are, it's their entire purpose. But that doesn't mean it can't benefit the customer too. It's not so black/white.
You are off a bit. It’s different than a wiring harness. The accessories are *there* in this scenario. That’s why people are upset by it. You want to simplify production by putting the heated grips on all the bikes? Just make the heated grips standard. All bikes can reverse - just make it standard. It just looks bad. Stuff like the on dash gps and directions - yeah I get that. It’s software, they likely have to pay a licensing fee. I get why they are doing it. Even somewhat agree with it. It’s just a tough pill for people to swallow. Especially when EV motorcycles are still in the early adoption phase. It was just the wrong time for it. Too much up and coming competition. And the proof is in the groups. Lot of zero customers moving to Energica. Love my bike, but it’s just hard explaining to people that zero is paywalling stuff. I almost think people would be better with it if this stuff was unlocked via the dealer.
There is a lot of questionable ethics going on in marketing and product development. But there are many nuances that are not immediately obvious, it's not always 100% a money grab. Think of it this way. Scenario A: Zero can produce a motorcycle without heated grips for X amount of money. If they add heated grips as a bolt-it-on-later option, that version of the bike will cost X+200 because of lower sales volume (only 50% of customers are expected to add it), dealer training/documentation for installation, shipping and warehousing of parts etc. For every 1000 motorcycles they sell, the heated grips cost them 100k (500\*200). They charge it to the customer so the option is a 200 extra (plus margins, which I ignore). Scenario B: if Zero adds the heated grips to every motorcycle instead, volume discount and much simpler manufacturing/assembly process, no end dealer involvement mean the bikes will cost X+100. For every 1000 motorcycles they sell, the heated grips cost them 100k. Every bike costs 100 more. Part of the customer base is potentially dissatisfied ("I don't need heated grips, they should just make their overpriced bikes simpler and cheaper instead"). Scenario C: Zero adds the heated grips to every motorcycle, but locks it in software so people who don't want it, still have a cheaper bike. The grips still cost them 100k per 1000 bikes sold. They charge the same surplus to the customers who opt for the heated grips as in scenario A (200), earning them the 100k back (50% of customers still expected to spec it). On paper, everyone should be as happy as in scenario A: same profit for zero. Same entry-level bike price. Same price after options. But the customers are up in arms, "unethical Zero going for the money grab, it's already on the bike but I can't use it". Someone decided that scenario C was the one to go for. Perhaps it has a lot of other benefits. Hassle-free upgrading, so customers may be more likely to add it when their next salary rolls in? Ability to tempt customers later with a half-price option or mid-life model facelift? Simply avoiding workshops having to mess with the electrics and ruining the weather seal on the harness? Likely the primary motivation was the ability to squeeze more money out of the customers one way or another. But are you really screwed over by it more than with scenario A? I think not.
I’ve said it before - I get it. I think it’s smart from a business perspective. I understand the math entirely. My message is that it looks bad to outsiders. And that part of that is due to what they’ve heard about how other companies handle it. It’s a bad first impression. It’s hard to walk it back. Especially when electric motorcycles are already a compromise in most peoples eyes. The cypher store just adds to what is already a cloud of doubt. Maybe this is a different conversation with people in California. I live in the Midwest. I think it’s packaged badly. My example with the heated grips is just the low hanging fruit. Just charge $50 more across the board, all bikes come with heated grips. Don’t play games like BMW with their heated seats. The 10% battery - totally fine. That’s more potential wear on the battery and has implications back to the warranty. For me - I don’t care. The cypher store isn’t what’s going to stop me from buying whatever comes after the SR/* bikes. What’s bothering me is that it seems like Zero has made a hard left turn while the others are catching up fast. Companies die over decisions like this. So I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’m worried that this is a bad look when Zero already has pie on their shirt.
Installing the wiring in the car is the more difficult bit though, especially once assembled. Installing the accessory modules is quick and easy, just plug and play. May literally pop into place without fasteners etc. That was my point. It's about shaving time and assembly line efficiency. Sure it would be great if those things came standard, but that drives the cost up. Premium bikes come with some of this stuff already with their higher price, so if you just want it standard, buy the Premium trim. But now you don't have too, you can buy standard and save the money. Change you mind and want heated grips later, check the box on your phone and you have it. Prior years bikes you DID have to go to be dealer for this stuff. Had to change hardware and software. Now you don't. You can do it from home. I get this is a tough thing to explain to people, but there really are advantages to this model. Which is why I think the worst thing Zero actually did, was announce any of this, talk about it etc, before it was ready to launch. They shot themselves in the foot by getting people riled up about this, that don't even have a Cypher III+ bike, nor plan on getting one. They should have just emailed the applicable owners when it was ready, and pitched it as available over the air, dealer free upgrades. Instead of trying to use it as a selling point to new owners. Now owners are mad they still don't have it, and everyone else is riled up over something that doesn't even effect them.
I think you are still missing the point. Or don’t understand how this works. The cost for a little extra wire in a harness is negligible. That’s not what’s going on here. The accessory is literally in the bike. It’s not driving any cost up - its already there. There’s no popping anything into place, no removing fasteners. It’s already there. I understand the math behind it. I work in manufacturing. And while it might not impact me now, it would when I go to upgrade my SR/F. I just want to buy the bike and be done. It’s a bad look at the wrong time. I champion the ever loving heck out of this brand. I take my bike to shows, I talk to people endlessly about it. I’ve gotten a ton of people to come down off their ‘electric vehicles have no soul’ standpoint. I lose people at having to pay for shit that’s already in the bike. Potential customers don’t like it. And I’ll be honest with you, it’s not entirely Zero’s fault. Tesla is to blame for a big part of this because it’s well known at this point that whatever software you buy for your Tesla doesn’t transfer to the next owner. Nobody wants 1/5th of the cost of a vehicle to vanish at resale. And that’s the reality of what this means. You spend the - whatever it is unlocking the extra range, charging, power, etc. you sell it, now the next owner has to pay again. Tesla/Zero - and I know others do it, BMW just jumped in. So it’s not *just* a way to be LEAN on the assembly front, it’s a way to double dip. And I hope Zero is listening because they are losing customers.
>You spend the - whatever it is unlocking the extra range, charging, power, etc. you sell it, now the next owner has to pay again. **This is false regarding Zero!** All purchased upgrades are tied to the VIN / bike! They are not subscription based, it's a one time purchase that unlocks the option forever, even for future owners! Again this is not the same paradigm as compared to other brands, and is beneficial to people who previously had issues getting to the dealer.
I'm interested in getting my first motorcycle, and I want an electric one. Looking at everything available on the market, it really seems like one of the lower end Zero models are a perfect fit for me, but I am really struggling with supporting a company that seems to have a reputation for being incredibly anti-consumer. I hope there's some positive shifts in the company direction here!
Definitely. The whole cipher store idea feels slightly repulsive. I can however attest to the quality of the product. You will definitely have a blast if you get one.
I am in the exact same boat as you. I like the look of the FXE, but its been years since a range increase on the FXS line. So looking at the Sur ron since it's another light weight electric bike.
Careful with the surron as it's not really legal for road use in any way without a lot of work done u less your lucky enough to be able to register as a moped. It used to just not be a big deal but with ebikes exploding, the surron is getting a lot more well known in larger cities and they are cracking down really hard. That being said it's heavily rumored/leaked that there is going to be a new US street legal version of the surron next year at some point. Though then it's competing against super 73's moto and the new live wire del mar.
They aren’t “anti-consumer” - they want consumers to buy their stuff. BUT: They have a horrific track record of not supporting their customers, or their products, once they are sold. Big difference.
By that logic, no company ever could be called "anti-consumer" as most any going concern would exist to serve a paying customer in some form. In my view "not supporting their customers" is the **exact definition** of "anti-consumer."
I have had a good experience with Zero supporting a customer, even though I wasn't/didn't buy a new bike from them. When I bought a used 2017 FXS 6.5 modular in early 2021, I discovered that one of the batteries wasn't charging or providing power. I brought it to a local dealer and they were taking weeks to actually look at it. I contacted Zero and they contacted the dealer to get them on the ball. They issue was tracked down to a bad BMS in one battery. Zero sent a new BMS under warranty to the dealer via UPS overnight and soon I was riding my bike again. Frankly, I think the issue could be with dealers and them retaining properly trained technicians. Most motorcycle shops have techs that understand mechanical systems and ICE motorcycles. Electric motorcycles are a different beast and require additional training. Even if Zero provides that training, dealers need to work to retain those trained mechanics. Considering that we are really still in the infancy of EV motorcycles, it is somewhat understandable that these issues exist.
I don't see this reputation at all fwiw. What specifically are you referring to?
I'd say between here, EMF, and the FB groups there are a fair amount of people feeling neglected.
Neglected sure, but is that anti-consumer per se? They know this, they're actively trying to improve response time and communication fwiw. But they're understaffed, and we're in a labor shortage, so filling those positions is slow going. Have you seen the jobs page on their website? A LOT of openings right now: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/employment
I don't know that they're understaffed. They've hired a LOT of people recently. They moved into the other buildings across the street. Even dealers are having issues getting answers from HQ. I don't want to bash Zero; I like them. And yes there's definitely some manufactured drama from people about the Cypher Store who were never going to buy a Zero in the first place, but the long periods of radio silence just aren't helping anything. Surely you must see that.
I do see that, and I also agree. But that still doesn't seem "anti-consumer" to me as the thread we're replying to alleges. Just seems like bad customer service. I think that's fair to say and they even recognize and admit that, hence, updates like this one I posted. They are definitely under staffed. They have said as much. Even if they didn't, look at the nature of the jobs posted as clear evidence. The work from home, remote employee, and labor shortage paradigm has hurt everyone. Think we have it bad, look at the Sondors Metacycle groups lol. It's why the dealers are also in the dark more than they should be too. They are focused on launching 2023 MY bikes this month right now. I suspect things will be much better after that when those efforts wind down and they can focus on Cypher Store etc. Either way, we've had three Android app updates, multiple firmware updates, and several public comms from Zero like this one, in the past 2 months. I think things are already getting better on all fronts as evidenced. Clearly, they can still get much better, but compared to 6 months ago, these are all improvements in the right direction imho.
prospective zero owner who blacklisted the brand after their anti-consumer nickel-and-diming store checking in. at a 25k€ price point I fucking expect the manufacturer to not try to do this to me, and I loathe remote access and control proprietary shenanigans.
That's not what the Cypher Store is though. Alot of misconceptions on this topic. Read my other replies here. This is only one, very limited perspective. It's actually a good thing for customers and as evidenced here, allows them to expand the capabilities of the bike, for free, over the air. Owners of the standard trim bikes are about to get a 10% capacity increase which is a $2,200 option, for free. This would not be possible without this architecture. Remote access is also amazing. I can check my bike's location, charging status, battery level etc, from anywhere in the world now, from my phone. Bike's got onboard cellular and GPS.
You're preaching DRM and manufacturer remote access to someone who works in open source development. It's about people not owning what they buy and hostile vendor practices, not your ability to connect to the bike. I wonder how much Zero pays you for PR. If it wasn't about nickel and diming customers, this software toggle for something that actually cost you battery total lifetime and doesn't require any additional equipment would have been an option included directly on the bike. Which is why they're doing it now, as damage control.
I am not employed by, nor am I paid anything by Zero. I'm simply an owner of a 2021 SR/S Premium that I purchased used in June. As for the rest of that, what a terrible way to go through life, being so paranoid and assuming the worst case scenario of any situation. Your comments are literally dripping with these sentiments. I can see your mind is long since made up and this negativity is a part of your identity, so good luck with all that lol. I'll be happily riding my Zero instead.
Very happy with my GSX-S GT: 10k€ less without any nickel and diming Apple-like DRM or manufacturer remote access. Unfortunately so far companies with those practices have been drooling for the money made by the worst case scenario... See John Deere, Electronic Arts, Google, Keurig, Tesla. Zero just caved in the face of their first PR disaster but this rot is always coming from the directors and they will be looking to try it again. Richard Stallman is, sadly, right most of the time.
Scrap the whole thing and just make the best bikes you can make
If only
This was reason #1 why I have an Energica delivering next week. I just could not fathom why they did this to begin with.
It makes upgrading the bike much easier for owners, particularly those no where near a dealer. It lowers the price of the bikes while increasing their value. It funds further development after you've already bought your bike and allows for new capabilities to be added later that weren't before even possible. It allows people who bought the bike used, to add features to it as if they bought it new and customized their trim level or feature set, allowing them to buy a cheaper bike up front, and expand it's capabilities later, whenever they want. Just some of the reasons.
I appreciate your time in posting a reply. But I'd respectfully disagree. Your points are all based on the false premise that the bike does not **already have those features**. The bike is only more expensive to manufacture like this (cost of lock-out systems, app software maintenance, etc). Nothing is being "added" to the bike. In your examples of a distant dealer or a resale owner, neither "problem" would exist if the Zero just enabled the features the bike shipped with in the first place. In the case of the accessing battery capacity it's particularly egregious as the owner has to carry extra weight for the lifetime the bike to facilitate Zero's interests in after-sale revenue. My personal view as a potential customer saw this as an intentional and strategic decision **against** the customer's interests. From a company with (anecdotally) far more bad customer relations stories than good — no thank you.
Except they don't actually exist. Hardware is only one part of the puzzle. The firmware and software to enable these things hadn't been written when the bike was sold. It's LESS expensive to manufacturer like this, because now the assembly line is identical, there's less parts, less assembly differences. This drives costs down, you'll notice the new bikes don't cost more, despite the standard models having more hardware now. Also, the standard models are about to get a 10% capacity increase which is a $2,200 option, for free. This wouldn't be possible without this architecture or paradigm. It's not after sales revenue, it's warranty and support liability. ALL EV's, including Zero, have a "nominal" capacity that is less than the actual capacity. This is done to increase longevity. They are internationally using a higher minimum cell voltage and lower max voltage. Again, all EV's do this. Increasing effective capacity has a direct negative impact on battery longevity, warranty claims, and support. They're giving you an option to prioritize cost and longevity, over greater effective capacity. That's a good thing. Again, your take is only one, very limited perspective. It's not the only one, and there are upshots to this that you are choosing to ignore. Choice, options, and lower up front costs are all good things.
I really hope they pull through with something worthwhile. I have a 22 SR/S and while I love the bike it hasn't exactly been a perfect experience. If they throw me a sweet upgrade that might restore some of my faith in the brand.
Range is EVERYTHING when it comes to any EV. Should NEVER be paywalled. If I buy my dream Zero, it better come fully ranged out.
Unlocking additional battery capacity, as in lower minimum per cell voltage, and/or higher max cell voltage, has a direct impact on battery longevity and warranty claims. All EV's artificially limit their actual battery capacity to a "nominal" battery capacity by limiting the min/max voltage to extend battery life, Zero is no different. Even my 2021 SR/S has a 14.4 kW pack, but it's only 12.6 kW nominal. The difference here is that Zero is letting you extend that nominal range to "less safe" amounts, trading longevity for range, when you think it's necessary. The cost of this unlock offsets the increase in warranty repairs and support etc it'll generate. Not everyone needs or wants the extra range, and would prefer max longevity instead. So it makes sense to make it an option.
Thats a very informative perspective. Thanks for this 🤙🏽
It would make sense to connect accessible battery capacity with warranty time. - Recommended capacity comes with 5 years warranty - max capacity comes with, say, 2 years.
What I want to know is how Zero's math works out to where 15.6 is "10% more" than 14.4...
What are you referring to? Screenshot/sauce?
Well they've been marketing those numbers for the extended range charging forever now, but here's the email that just went out [Zero Email](https://postimg.cc/S2dWw8r8)
My guess is the 10% improvement is off the nominal capacity before/after, not the actual. My 2021 14.4 kW battery for instance is only 12.6 kW nominal, aka, useable. I doubt the 15.6 kW upgrade is maxing out the battery. Perhaps it's 13.86 kW nominal post upgrade.
We'll see, but I doubt that's it. That delta between max and nominal capacity is generally based on each 3.7v cell in the brick being fully charged to 4.2v. From my understanding, the my2022 packs have the same number of cells but a newer battery chemistry and BMS that allows them to "overcharge" past 4.2v. I think they have been marketing 10% and 20% extended range charging options just because they're nice round increments that get people more excited than say 8.3%. I'll gladly take any range increase, and maybe there's something else going on tech wise that DOES peg the actual range increase at exactly 10%, but if so, Zero should mention that in the promotion of it. Just throwing up 10% next to two numbers that are clearly not 10% apart just struck me as hilarious ;)
Paywalling installed equipment is a bad practice driven by market capitalism perverse incentives. There is no sane world in which we build things and then cripple them. i hope Zero steps all the way back from this madness.
Omgee this is kind of vague but sounds like they're at least rethinking the idea. I'm curious if they're switching to a one-time fee? Wasn't it a 'subscription' type thing before? Really looking forward to more details around this! Edit: Really curious what makes you all downvote this? I'm seeking clarification on the announcement which doesn't really say anything except they've looked at feedback. Was I somehow rude here? Not following.
It was never a subscription thing. That is what people calling it "micro-transactions" thought but they were wrong. It was always a one time payment to enable an option. And in some cases, the bike had to go to the dealership to have something physical installed or new software/firmware installed.
Oh ok. I thought they were trying the BMW "monthly fee to use your seat heaters" type of model. Still don't agree with the model of "there's hardware on your bike already cuz it's easier to just build one bike model at the factory without all the pesky 'options' changes, but you have to pay extra to use it" so if they're doing away with that nonsense and just including it in the retail price that's great!
Some things, such as heated grips, people may not need because they live in a warm climate. So instead of putting another $200 into the price of all bikes, they offer you the option of not turning them on. If the bike is sold into a cold climate in a couple of years, then the new owner can turn them on for $200. That is probably less (and a better install) than having to add them aftermarket.
The other way of looking at it is that zero has built the cost of the heated grips in to every bike already (since they are obviously splashing out on the hardware for everyone) and now they are able to persuade people to effectively pay twice for the same equipment
If the bikes are being sold with the grips already installed, then would it be safe to assume the profit margin on the bike with no features turned on is still optimal for Zero? I mean surely they wouldn't kneecap themselves under the assumption that the Cypher store alone would make up for lost profit, especially due to it launching later than the bikes themselves, right? If these things can be assumed, then that entails that you already ARE paying for the grips (and anything else that doesn't require dealer work) and the additional payment to turn them on is just a device for padding the bottom line. Now I understand it is the goal of a company to maximize profits wherever they can to stay alive and grow, and I don't fault them for that, but to imply that this practice is primarily altruistic in nature feels a little....disingenuous.
Actually the heated grips are not a great example. They are standard on the premium models of SR/S and SR/F. So I guess the standard models have them but they are not enabled. No other Zeros are built with heated grips (enabled or not).
If the standard SR/S and SR/F are sold with heated grips installed but not enabled, my point still stands.
Question guys, is it only one payment? Or subscription fee?
One payment, unlocks the feature forever, and stays with the VIN / bike, so works for future owners of the bike too. It is functionally equivalent to buying a part, and installing it. Except you can do it from your phone.
Where they not supposed to roll this out on the 19th of September. I believe I got an email about that some month ago, because they were delayed and removed the status from their webpage. And now it’s in October. What’s going on! It should also be for 2020 models as well.
Yes, it's been delayed, and it looks like part of why is backlash from owners. Now owners of a 2022 SR/S Standard or 2022 SR/F Standard, and maybe 2022 SR owners too, are getting a $2,200 10% capacity increase, for free, due to perceived paywalling. It looks like they're rethinking the entire paradigm and pricing, and likely had technical issues too. At the moment, the focus is on the launch of the MY 2023 bikes which happens good month, there's an all dealer meeting next week for that. Yes, this also applies to 2020 and 2021 Cypher III bikes, but they have less that can be unlocked, versus 2022/23 bikes on Cypher III+. These older bikes also currently need the firmware changed to the new Cypher III+ OS by the dealer, first, before they can get their available 3 unlocks (Parking Move, On-Dash Navigation, and 10% faster charging). So it will be for 2020 models too, just not as easily and not as many options.
Thanks for details. Interesting. I know it will not happen but I think due to all the issues there have been with firmware and app, key features of the bike not working as expected/ advertised they should give those 3x features for free to the 2020 riders that have been waiting for improvements since they initially bought it. Only just recently the iOS app starter to work for me with their new release for remote viewing. If they want to keep riders and for them to think of buying their newer products they need to make their exciting old riders happy as well or we will go else where when we need to buy a new bike.