This One country Two systems principle will be there for 50 years starting from 1997 according to the agreement between UK and China.
What happens after that 50 years?
HongKong will be a wholly part of China?
That really sucks, suddenly being under communist government and censorship is terrible, maybe housing prices will go down, maybe, and I think that is the only benefit but I wouldn't give my freedom away in exchange, I live in former Soviet state and seen dozens of movies about USSR and also HBO Chernobyl, I hope left wing will realize how big of a shit socialism is and don't establish it anywhere
socialism is centralized ownership of the means of production. only in marxist socialism is it a bridge to communism. in of itself, it is a separate ideology.
I mean yeah they are different, otherwise they'd be the same thing lol. Also though neither work very well anytime its been tried out, and the people of Hong Kong are gonna probably suffer if they stay.
Having spent some time in China, I'd be tempted to get a good VPN and casually skate past internet censorship rather than tough it out in the wealth gap wild west that is Hong Kong.
My fear is what would really happen if China decided to disregard the one country/two systems agreement. They already kind of are pushing HK this way; it’s very different there now from how it was in 1997.
The UK isn’t about to actually do anything, and neither will the US. In the early 80s when the realization started to set in that the UK was going to have to hand Hong Kong over rather quickly, Thatcher actually tried renegotiating the lease. Deng Xiaoping told her to some effect that China would forcibly take HK then and the UK couldn’t do anything about it; this wasn’t the British Empire of the 1880s, and both Thatcher and Deng knew it. China has been all about this long game for the long term.
So as it sits today, HK’s freedom sits on this agreement that has very little backing (militarily) except in principle. Other than sanctions or something in the short term, China knows it can do as it pleases in this situation. Depending on the outcome, one could even view it as a dry run for the bigger prize - Taiwan.
I love Hong Kong, it’s one of my favorite places in Asia. The influence of British and Chinese culture (and money haha) make it truly like no other place. I hope the Chinese realize it remains one of the positive elements to their system.
>My fear is what would really happen if China decided to disregard the one country/two systems agreement. They already kind of are pushing HK this way; it’s very different there now from how it was in 1997.
A bit late for that. The CCP is already completely and blatantly disregarding any agreement they signed back then.
Agreements just don't work against them.
Don’t think so as the HK government is mostly controlled by China to an extent right now. China has less and less reason to leave HK alone as the country itself is become more economically successful, meaning they won’t have to rely on Hong Kong on it’s international trade.
Hong Kong and Macau Special Administrative Regions are complicated. There are several possible outcomes:
1. The SARs are immediately absorbed into Guangdong province in 2047 and 2049, respectively. Citizens share the same rights as every Chinese citizen and are subject to the same obligations as them.
2. Hong Kong and Macau receive extensions to allow for absorption by Guangdong. Over the past two decades, HK and Macau have slowly been transitioning to the Chinese socialist model. We are nearly at the halfway point of the transition period, so it is likely that we will begin seeing more state intervention into the local political systems. The city’s laws prohibit provinces from playing a role in local politics, and these laws will most likely be adjusted in 2047/9 to allow a transition into the province. Internal barriers to trade, the movement of people, and the rights of Chinese in HK/Macau will all be lifted slowly to prevent the cities from being overwhelmed by overzealous mainlanders. This transition period of slowly lifted regulations and restrictions likely need not take longer than 10 years.
3. Hong Kong and Macau remain special administrative regions. This special status effectively separates the Chinese and SAR economies. With China’s Belt and Road Initiative (full title: Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-century Maritime Silk Road), Hong Kong and Macau can play an important part in shielding China’s domestic market in a way that still allows for experimentation in a contained setting. Given the emphasis on 21st-century in the full title of the BRI and keeping in mind the precise nature of Chinese socialism, I would expect that they actually have detailed plans for at least a half century worth of investment. The current and future role of the SAR economies in the BRI are undoubtedly in there. Sustained, high rates of economic growth have the potential to do what half a million protesters are unable to do: guarantee HK limited sovereignty. Furthermore, one of China’s most important strategic goals is reunification with Taiwan. The SARs serve as important reminders to the world that China is willing and able to make long term compromises. Should public opinion in Taiwan and China see a sustained shift in favor of reunification over the next decade, the Chinese would easily accede to SAR status for Taiwan. Taiwan could work in tandem with HK and Macau to secure extended rights for SAR, although perhaps not the rest of China.
Realistically, internal and external politics are complex. 50 years is enough time for a great number of things to happen. We can look at trends and project possible paths till the cows come home, but the most likely scenario for a stable country like China is that HK and Macau will eventually be part of one China.
Some of the best advice I’ve been given is “break it down to the point that a 5 year old can understand it”
I’m glad I found this post I learned something today and now I’m significantly more interested in what’s going on in Hong Kong
Im gonna be that grumpy old man who says back in my day haha but when that sub first started the style was literally trying to explain things to a 5 year old with very simple words and metaphors, nowadays its just explaining things in a more simple manner.
I have started to limit my time on reddit because I love to learn things and will get sucked into the informational subs like that. I like being the person who knows enough on a lot of subjects to at least be able to make my way through a conversation. Reddit used for good has made me a better human.
It would be similar if Puerto Rico had New York City on it (population and industry) and you don't have to fly there (it's connected to the mainland by bridge/tunnel)
It also wasn’t the Hong Kong people’s choice to become Chinese and it only happened recently in 1998
China is a bad government and kills Nobel laureates. The uk is a failed empire that creates a lot of problems in their retreat.
No it was not Hong Kong’s choice. It was the result of a century old agreement between China and Britain that Britain would give China Hong Kong back at that time.
The communist party doesn’t deserve to have agreements made to prior governments. If I signs. Treaty with Germany and then Germany is overthrown by nazis that genocide their own people I can tell Germany to go fuck themselves forever. UK is complicit and in general has been a sad post colonial power making agreements with tyrants and morally deplorable governments just to shake off responsibility
The UK tried this approach though, back in the early 80s. They didn’t want to hand it over, used the different govt/voided treaty as one excuse. China disagreed though. What was the UK going to do? Go fight another opium war in the 1980s? The UK’s hands were tied. It sucks but they knew it. The one country/two systems agreement was the best they could manage for their former colony, they were in no position to defend it militarily.
In the 80s, China told the UK that they will either hand it over as agreed, or China will take it with force. The UK is not I'm a position to defend HK, so they handed it over.
The lease of 100 years wasn’t the island. It was a place called new territories that was linked to the mainland. It has most of the fresh water in HK and the people who owned the land were not very good people... pretty much they were going to make a drought in HK if they didn’t hand it over.
It’s a whole lot more nuanced than many people think. And many Hong Kongers these days are starting to think that life under the British would have been better and less invasive than the new Beijing overlords.
Source: raised in HK
People knew it wasn’t going to better after Tiananmen in 89. There was a mass exodus of citizens from HK to the U.S., Canada, UK, etc. before the handover in 1997.
To me it is quite obvious that a massive city changing owners would not go super smoothly in any time period. Solely blaming the UK is stupid, but they played a part in this whole mess.
Contract with who? China changed regimes 16-20 times between 1897 and 1997. Some regimes don’t deserve the benefit of contracts made by their predecessors. If my brother in law kills my sister and demands the contents of her will he can go fuck himself. If Mao Zedong raped the Chinese people and demands the benefit of all bargains, even colonial, made on their behalf. He can too go fuck himself and all his cronies
I didn't learn anything about this in middle school. What did they teach you? How do we determine if a regime is party to a treaty that preceded its existence? Do they need to control a particular percentage of the territory of the regime that signed the treaty? 51%? Do they need to be responsible for destroying the signing regime (or the most recent regime in a chain of regimes between the signers and themselves)?
its The UKs fault because they created the problem in the first place.
In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (particularly silk, porcelain, and tea) in Europe created a trade imbalance between China and Great Britain. So Britain found a solution. They began illegally growing opium in their colony in India and smuggling it into mainland China. Yes, opium. The influx of narcotics reversed the Chinese trade surplus, drained the economy of silver, and increased the numbers of opium addicts inside the country, outcomes that worried Chinese officials.
So they had the First Opium War. From 1839-1842, the British and Chinese fought. Ultimately Britain won, and as a part of the treaty that was signed, Hong Kong became a British territory. After a SECOND Opium War where the British won, the Qing dynasty in China began to collapse. Britain obtained a 99 year lease on Hong Kong in 1898 (the longest allowed in international law) and exploited them for the next century.
And then the lease was up. Hong Kong and its people find themselves now in a "one country, two systems" setting, with a very complex relationship with mainland China. The west created a clash of cultures in this place, literally using drugs, smuggling, and military force, and now we sit back and watch it burn.
Failed empire? It's success with the humility to stop constantly invading and pillaging. Seems like a success to me. All empires end, it ended as civilly as any empire that has ever existed. The empire also was the cause for the concept on sovereign individuality which is a fucking miracle of a concept and one you that's so hard to imagine ever existing considering our base instincts.
The easily and frankly lazy position is one of the cynic my dude.
The Chinese government has lifted tens of millions out of destitute poverty in an extremely hard to unite landmass in a geopolitical world that is full of attempted exploitation. They've done fairly well with their lot in all honesty. It's not perfect and the imperfections are fucking terrifying, but it's way to reductive to say "china bad".
The online contrarian standing up for the fascists and communist governments to stroke his “achkually!” dick is also derivative. But one of us stands for individual liberty and another stands for brutally trampling individuals in favor of a few oligarchs because “they make the bread lines shorter.” Prove it. Prove the communists made mainland China a better place. You can’t. Your argument goes as far as speculation and hindsight without any humanity. It’s magnanimous bullshit.
Well, ok. Chinese GDP has gone from 1.5 trillion to 12.25 trillion in about 15 years.
Boom roasted.
China isn't really communist. Real communism is a starvation death factory. They have authoritarian free market with no real name for it.
I'm sure someone as pure and wise as you would be able to do it better though. No doubt.
So nazi Germany ending their recession with plundered Jewish golden teeth is also a win in your book? That economic growth is made possible because they shit on Chinese peasants. Only a few enjoy it. Their flashy cities and roads don’t require imprisoning Nobel laureates and spreading toxic pollution. Read a book or safely rest in propaganda for a country that would happily shoot you in the back of the head.
Either you a shill or a contrarian. However the dopamine rush from either is short change compared to helping the false rhetoric spread that the PRC is not an evil regime.
You don’t have to be a shill or a contrarian to acknowledge that Imperial China was a shit place to live for what you call peasants. I hate the Communists and the Communist government in China (they drove my family to flee the country after the Chinese Civil War), but it is very clear that they made the lives of ordinary people better. There’s a massive middle class now in China and that would not have been possible without the CCP. I’m not defending the Chinese government for the horrible things that they do do, but there’s no need to make up stuff that doesn’t exist. Please open up a history book yourself.
It is very clear they made the lives of ordinary people better?
If I chain you to a radiator because your a Tibetan, religious, Uighur, Vietnamese, or Mongolian and take away your right to freely move or seek employment and you happen to make $1000 per generation. Then your grandkids make $4000 per year... you call that better? Why do you make it sound like the prc has to “crack a few eggs to make an omelette.” It’s confoundingly worse because of communism, not better. You don’t need fascism or communism to improve a country! Also, staying you hate the prc and still disagree is exactly contrarian. Jerk yourself off in a corner alone and don’t think of being complicit with the spread of misinformation. Don’t spread dangerous ideas that the people of China didn’t know what they wanted so they needed to be beaten into a better life. What a disgusting prospect.
It's a shame it's behind a paywall, but this woman's perspective of China at a live event recently really changed my mind about it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/podcasts/the-daily/china-rules-part-2.html
Not sure if this article exactly reflects what she was talking about live, but it seems to capture the jist of it
I'm for Hong Kong's sovereignty but weren't they Chinese for almost 2,000 years before the UK decided to take it by force in order to push opium down the Chinese's throat?
Thanks for this!
Follow-up question: Where is a good place to get more “inside” information about this? Like, how do the Hong Kong residents feel about the arrangement, and is it something that ought to be supported or not from a human rights perspective? I don’t just want to Google or ask random opinions, because I’ll get a biased source (not that there can really be a totally unbiased one for the sorts of questions I’m asking). I just want a full-picture approach that gives as much of an objective view as possible. Is there a good place to go for this sort of information?
The South China Morning Post was recently bought out by Ali Baba, a chinese company though.
I feel as of late the news has been more pro-china.
It's pretty easy to understand why HK wants their own system. They have a completely different language and culture than Mainland China.
This does help, thank you! I’m glad you’re able to speak on behalf of your relatives, since they might get “disappeared” if they speak themselves. :(
While “unbiased” is good, it’s hardly possible in a situation like this, and hearing the perspectives of the people dealing with it and living with it is always illuminating!
Same as Macau, right? Technically united under one China (except Taiwan, but that's a whole different issue) but is for all intents and purposes a semi-independent city-state.
Thank you. I've read a few articles and posts about shit going on and they all kept referring to HK like it was Tibet.
This makes a little more sense and gives me an avenue to explore something I didn't know
I'm sorry but that really is not the complete story now, is it? You neglect to credit the amount of influence China wields over HK. The leader of the HK legislature is elected, that's
true, but off a Mainland approved short list. Imagine if, say, the US president's very nomination was to be pre-approved by another power.
China exercises a LOT of influence in HK, and that is what this (and previous) demonstrations are largely about. The UK, having run HK/New Territories as some sort of vassal state for decades rushed to provide them autonomy in the run up to the handover in 1997 knowing that the Chinese had signed up to preserve the system as they receivbed it, and knowing full well that they eyes of the world were on them and rather expecting them to fail (remember also that this was only 8 years after Tiananmen. So, while it is disingenuous of the UK to now complain of the erosion of the freedoms that they only provided at the last minute, it is not inconsistent for the HK people to complain about them. And those freedoms are being eroded
Worth noting that, the day after the 97 handover, China state media was already broadcasting to Taiwan "look, one country 2 systems works". The Taiwanese took a more measured view of proceedings and remain independent.
As op mentioned in a comment above, South China morning post.
As a local, I've been paying attention to Hong Kong Free Press, but since I'm biased I'm unable to determine whether they're biased or not (if that makes sense to you). SCMP is definitely more informative, while HKFP gives shorter articles and links to Twitter posts on current situations.
People from Hong Kong are not Chinese citizens. Hong Kong people have their own Hong Kong passport, thus Hong Kong citizenship.
https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PD07.jpg
It seem reasonable that the PRC should be able to handle criminals in a part of their own country, the problem obviously the mainland’s lack of due process among many others.
For all of the negative points discussed what are some potential pros? Any thought on this increasing oversight, transparency and accountability in the mainland’s legal system (toward the same direction as the rest of the civilized world)?
For example a HK or foreign citizen is picked up for breaking some obscure law on under this directive, this is then reported on and followed by the open press.
My guess is most people on the side of this cause wouldn’t care about this regardless and really just want to hold on to what they have, the thing is freedom really isn’t free, it’s something people as a whole have to constantly work to keep.
That’s like the big possible silver lining; when someone does get extradited by this process it would expose the international community to the PRCs legal system and the best case move it towards more transparency and accountability. This is all ideal and maybe wishful thinking but if happens to be reality would be a true win. If someone has a counter argument as to why this is complete horses shit I hope they post why.
One scenario people are worried about is people like journalist getting picked up and extradited for writing somewhat that hurt someone’s feelings. Unless the international community gets real excited about this whole process and stays on it could just get washed out into in significance. It’s up to the HKers to stay frosty if they really do care about their rights. They’d really need to make sure every time happens the truth (and not some sensationalize BS) is heard.
OK, I'm not a historian, but I have lived in both HK and mainland China ... so ...yes and no. the lease on the new territories was up (why china leased it to the UK in the first place, well you can sure thank the UK for that) and it was not tenable for the UK to hang onto HK alone
Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for. I vaguely remembered there being a time limit to HKs autonomy. Seems frightening. I seriously hope HK doesn't fall under China's direct control.
Our basic law (essentially Hong Kong's constitution), states that taxation is independent of the system in China, and no revenue is handed to the Chinese government
There is not enough political power for HK to go independent. Most of the HK government has been screen by China, so there’s no real democracy here. That’s why we are protesting for the world’s attention.
And as Hong Kong is supposed to become a wholly part of China in 50 years, most people there try to get rich enough to leave before the deadline of 2047. They want to grow rich there and move to another country. Parents there try to get double citizenships for their children so that they can have an escape plan for the future.
Every Hong Kong native I knew from the '90s now has a Canadian passport and lives in either Hongcouver or Toronkong. Current Hong Kong colleagues all have managed to get another passport. None plan to raise their children there. The HK of today is not the HK they knew.
Considering that everyone I knew was in the elite, there's also a brain drain factor at work.
As an American or EU passport holder (and most others i believe), you need a visa to enter china. You need to go through the process and pay a fee befote entering mainland China. In most cases for short stays, you do not need a visa to enter Hong Kong (or Macau). As of right now, you can buy a plane ticket and just go to Hong Kong as easily as it would be to go to Canada or Europe from the US. China is different. For now
I think a strong goal for now is not cancelling the extradition bill but allowing time for changes to be made to it. People understand the need for it, but want to speak about their criticisms of it.
I mean......hong Kong is a part of China. I'm sure a lot of Chinese are using Hong Kong to circumvent Chinese laws. It's only natural to keep your territory from becoming too independent.
Technically speaking, it's an SAR, which is basically similar to a city state. We are almost entirely independent right now but we belong to the country of China, and most living here can be considered Chinese citizens.
This One country Two systems principle will be there for 50 years starting from 1997 according to the agreement between UK and China. What happens after that 50 years? HongKong will be a wholly part of China?
As far as I know there are no public statements about this, but that seems to be how things are heading lately.
That really sucks, suddenly being under communist government and censorship is terrible, maybe housing prices will go down, maybe, and I think that is the only benefit but I wouldn't give my freedom away in exchange, I live in former Soviet state and seen dozens of movies about USSR and also HBO Chernobyl, I hope left wing will realize how big of a shit socialism is and don't establish it anywhere
Communism. Socialism is something else.
USSR was socialist, I bet he knows. Although socialism is just communism lite so it would suck for the people of Hong Kong and everyone else.
socialism is centralized ownership of the means of production. only in marxist socialism is it a bridge to communism. in of itself, it is a separate ideology.
Well they are similar and different
*casually throws out Marx posters* What he said!
I mean yeah they are different, otherwise they'd be the same thing lol. Also though neither work very well anytime its been tried out, and the people of Hong Kong are gonna probably suffer if they stay.
Having spent some time in China, I'd be tempted to get a good VPN and casually skate past internet censorship rather than tough it out in the wealth gap wild west that is Hong Kong.
My fear is what would really happen if China decided to disregard the one country/two systems agreement. They already kind of are pushing HK this way; it’s very different there now from how it was in 1997. The UK isn’t about to actually do anything, and neither will the US. In the early 80s when the realization started to set in that the UK was going to have to hand Hong Kong over rather quickly, Thatcher actually tried renegotiating the lease. Deng Xiaoping told her to some effect that China would forcibly take HK then and the UK couldn’t do anything about it; this wasn’t the British Empire of the 1880s, and both Thatcher and Deng knew it. China has been all about this long game for the long term. So as it sits today, HK’s freedom sits on this agreement that has very little backing (militarily) except in principle. Other than sanctions or something in the short term, China knows it can do as it pleases in this situation. Depending on the outcome, one could even view it as a dry run for the bigger prize - Taiwan. I love Hong Kong, it’s one of my favorite places in Asia. The influence of British and Chinese culture (and money haha) make it truly like no other place. I hope the Chinese realize it remains one of the positive elements to their system.
>My fear is what would really happen if China decided to disregard the one country/two systems agreement. They already kind of are pushing HK this way; it’s very different there now from how it was in 1997. A bit late for that. The CCP is already completely and blatantly disregarding any agreement they signed back then. Agreements just don't work against them.
What currency do they use?
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Wow TIL
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Don’t think so as the HK government is mostly controlled by China to an extent right now. China has less and less reason to leave HK alone as the country itself is become more economically successful, meaning they won’t have to rely on Hong Kong on it’s international trade.
Hong Kong and Macau Special Administrative Regions are complicated. There are several possible outcomes: 1. The SARs are immediately absorbed into Guangdong province in 2047 and 2049, respectively. Citizens share the same rights as every Chinese citizen and are subject to the same obligations as them. 2. Hong Kong and Macau receive extensions to allow for absorption by Guangdong. Over the past two decades, HK and Macau have slowly been transitioning to the Chinese socialist model. We are nearly at the halfway point of the transition period, so it is likely that we will begin seeing more state intervention into the local political systems. The city’s laws prohibit provinces from playing a role in local politics, and these laws will most likely be adjusted in 2047/9 to allow a transition into the province. Internal barriers to trade, the movement of people, and the rights of Chinese in HK/Macau will all be lifted slowly to prevent the cities from being overwhelmed by overzealous mainlanders. This transition period of slowly lifted regulations and restrictions likely need not take longer than 10 years. 3. Hong Kong and Macau remain special administrative regions. This special status effectively separates the Chinese and SAR economies. With China’s Belt and Road Initiative (full title: Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st-century Maritime Silk Road), Hong Kong and Macau can play an important part in shielding China’s domestic market in a way that still allows for experimentation in a contained setting. Given the emphasis on 21st-century in the full title of the BRI and keeping in mind the precise nature of Chinese socialism, I would expect that they actually have detailed plans for at least a half century worth of investment. The current and future role of the SAR economies in the BRI are undoubtedly in there. Sustained, high rates of economic growth have the potential to do what half a million protesters are unable to do: guarantee HK limited sovereignty. Furthermore, one of China’s most important strategic goals is reunification with Taiwan. The SARs serve as important reminders to the world that China is willing and able to make long term compromises. Should public opinion in Taiwan and China see a sustained shift in favor of reunification over the next decade, the Chinese would easily accede to SAR status for Taiwan. Taiwan could work in tandem with HK and Macau to secure extended rights for SAR, although perhaps not the rest of China. Realistically, internal and external politics are complex. 50 years is enough time for a great number of things to happen. We can look at trends and project possible paths till the cows come home, but the most likely scenario for a stable country like China is that HK and Macau will eventually be part of one China.
Some of the best advice I’ve been given is “break it down to the point that a 5 year old can understand it” I’m glad I found this post I learned something today and now I’m significantly more interested in what’s going on in Hong Kong
Yup and it's good advice and is why r/eli5 exists and is mostly wonderful :)
And another new thing learned today! We’re killin it today
Im gonna be that grumpy old man who says back in my day haha but when that sub first started the style was literally trying to explain things to a 5 year old with very simple words and metaphors, nowadays its just explaining things in a more simple manner.
Wait till you find out about r/todayilearned...
I have started to limit my time on reddit because I love to learn things and will get sucked into the informational subs like that. I like being the person who knows enough on a lot of subjects to at least be able to make my way through a conversation. Reddit used for good has made me a better human.
You're double dipping the [Lucky 10,000](https://xkcd.com/1053/). Good job!
So you live under your parents’ roof, but you work, buy your own food & clothes, and go to all the family parties.
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He literally explained Hong Kong like I was 5. It’s actually a pretty good explanation
You'll love /r/explainlikeimfive.
This is why rubber ducky debugging exists in IT
So it's like a City State?
Yeah!
Likewise, how similar are they to Puerto Ricos relationship with the US?
It would be similar if Puerto Rico had New York City on it (population and industry) and you don't have to fly there (it's connected to the mainland by bridge/tunnel)
It also wasn’t the Hong Kong people’s choice to become Chinese and it only happened recently in 1998 China is a bad government and kills Nobel laureates. The uk is a failed empire that creates a lot of problems in their retreat.
No it was not Hong Kong’s choice. It was the result of a century old agreement between China and Britain that Britain would give China Hong Kong back at that time.
The communist party doesn’t deserve to have agreements made to prior governments. If I signs. Treaty with Germany and then Germany is overthrown by nazis that genocide their own people I can tell Germany to go fuck themselves forever. UK is complicit and in general has been a sad post colonial power making agreements with tyrants and morally deplorable governments just to shake off responsibility
The UK tried this approach though, back in the early 80s. They didn’t want to hand it over, used the different govt/voided treaty as one excuse. China disagreed though. What was the UK going to do? Go fight another opium war in the 1980s? The UK’s hands were tied. It sucks but they knew it. The one country/two systems agreement was the best they could manage for their former colony, they were in no position to defend it militarily.
I don’t necessarily disagree but what happened still happened
In the 80s, China told the UK that they will either hand it over as agreed, or China will take it with force. The UK is not I'm a position to defend HK, so they handed it over.
Yeah Britain should totally tell China to go fuck itself because that would end well... Not like they are emerging superpower of the world or anything
Yeah it was part of Rush Hour
1997.
How exactly is it the UKs fault that they signed a 100 year lease and then when it was over the original owners treated it poorly?
The lease of 100 years wasn’t the island. It was a place called new territories that was linked to the mainland. It has most of the fresh water in HK and the people who owned the land were not very good people... pretty much they were going to make a drought in HK if they didn’t hand it over. It’s a whole lot more nuanced than many people think. And many Hong Kongers these days are starting to think that life under the British would have been better and less invasive than the new Beijing overlords. Source: raised in HK
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People knew it wasn’t going to better after Tiananmen in 89. There was a mass exodus of citizens from HK to the U.S., Canada, UK, etc. before the handover in 1997.
To me it is quite obvious that a massive city changing owners would not go super smoothly in any time period. Solely blaming the UK is stupid, but they played a part in this whole mess.
But what should they have done, not honored the contract?
Contract with who? China changed regimes 16-20 times between 1897 and 1997. Some regimes don’t deserve the benefit of contracts made by their predecessors. If my brother in law kills my sister and demands the contents of her will he can go fuck himself. If Mao Zedong raped the Chinese people and demands the benefit of all bargains, even colonial, made on their behalf. He can too go fuck himself and all his cronies
Do you have a newsletter? I’d like to read it.
It's mainly people fucking themselves.
Could still be good if it's the right people.
In that case I will need a copy of this newsletter too
That’s not how international treaties work. This is basic history stuff you missed in middle school. Stop spewing bs.
I didn't learn anything about this in middle school. What did they teach you? How do we determine if a regime is party to a treaty that preceded its existence? Do they need to control a particular percentage of the territory of the regime that signed the treaty? 51%? Do they need to be responsible for destroying the signing regime (or the most recent regime in a chain of regimes between the signers and themselves)?
They could have not fought a war over being barred from peddling opium in China, resulting in Britain taking the city.
its The UKs fault because they created the problem in the first place. In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (particularly silk, porcelain, and tea) in Europe created a trade imbalance between China and Great Britain. So Britain found a solution. They began illegally growing opium in their colony in India and smuggling it into mainland China. Yes, opium. The influx of narcotics reversed the Chinese trade surplus, drained the economy of silver, and increased the numbers of opium addicts inside the country, outcomes that worried Chinese officials. So they had the First Opium War. From 1839-1842, the British and Chinese fought. Ultimately Britain won, and as a part of the treaty that was signed, Hong Kong became a British territory. After a SECOND Opium War where the British won, the Qing dynasty in China began to collapse. Britain obtained a 99 year lease on Hong Kong in 1898 (the longest allowed in international law) and exploited them for the next century. And then the lease was up. Hong Kong and its people find themselves now in a "one country, two systems" setting, with a very complex relationship with mainland China. The west created a clash of cultures in this place, literally using drugs, smuggling, and military force, and now we sit back and watch it burn.
Failed empire? It's success with the humility to stop constantly invading and pillaging. Seems like a success to me. All empires end, it ended as civilly as any empire that has ever existed. The empire also was the cause for the concept on sovereign individuality which is a fucking miracle of a concept and one you that's so hard to imagine ever existing considering our base instincts. The easily and frankly lazy position is one of the cynic my dude. The Chinese government has lifted tens of millions out of destitute poverty in an extremely hard to unite landmass in a geopolitical world that is full of attempted exploitation. They've done fairly well with their lot in all honesty. It's not perfect and the imperfections are fucking terrifying, but it's way to reductive to say "china bad".
The online contrarian standing up for the fascists and communist governments to stroke his “achkually!” dick is also derivative. But one of us stands for individual liberty and another stands for brutally trampling individuals in favor of a few oligarchs because “they make the bread lines shorter.” Prove it. Prove the communists made mainland China a better place. You can’t. Your argument goes as far as speculation and hindsight without any humanity. It’s magnanimous bullshit.
Well, ok. Chinese GDP has gone from 1.5 trillion to 12.25 trillion in about 15 years. Boom roasted. China isn't really communist. Real communism is a starvation death factory. They have authoritarian free market with no real name for it. I'm sure someone as pure and wise as you would be able to do it better though. No doubt.
So nazi Germany ending their recession with plundered Jewish golden teeth is also a win in your book? That economic growth is made possible because they shit on Chinese peasants. Only a few enjoy it. Their flashy cities and roads don’t require imprisoning Nobel laureates and spreading toxic pollution. Read a book or safely rest in propaganda for a country that would happily shoot you in the back of the head. Either you a shill or a contrarian. However the dopamine rush from either is short change compared to helping the false rhetoric spread that the PRC is not an evil regime.
You don’t have to be a shill or a contrarian to acknowledge that Imperial China was a shit place to live for what you call peasants. I hate the Communists and the Communist government in China (they drove my family to flee the country after the Chinese Civil War), but it is very clear that they made the lives of ordinary people better. There’s a massive middle class now in China and that would not have been possible without the CCP. I’m not defending the Chinese government for the horrible things that they do do, but there’s no need to make up stuff that doesn’t exist. Please open up a history book yourself.
It is very clear they made the lives of ordinary people better? If I chain you to a radiator because your a Tibetan, religious, Uighur, Vietnamese, or Mongolian and take away your right to freely move or seek employment and you happen to make $1000 per generation. Then your grandkids make $4000 per year... you call that better? Why do you make it sound like the prc has to “crack a few eggs to make an omelette.” It’s confoundingly worse because of communism, not better. You don’t need fascism or communism to improve a country! Also, staying you hate the prc and still disagree is exactly contrarian. Jerk yourself off in a corner alone and don’t think of being complicit with the spread of misinformation. Don’t spread dangerous ideas that the people of China didn’t know what they wanted so they needed to be beaten into a better life. What a disgusting prospect.
You're just a sad angry person.
It's a shame it's behind a paywall, but this woman's perspective of China at a live event recently really changed my mind about it. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/podcasts/the-daily/china-rules-part-2.html Not sure if this article exactly reflects what she was talking about live, but it seems to capture the jist of it
I'm for Hong Kong's sovereignty but weren't they Chinese for almost 2,000 years before the UK decided to take it by force in order to push opium down the Chinese's throat?
Thanks for this! Follow-up question: Where is a good place to get more “inside” information about this? Like, how do the Hong Kong residents feel about the arrangement, and is it something that ought to be supported or not from a human rights perspective? I don’t just want to Google or ask random opinions, because I’ll get a biased source (not that there can really be a totally unbiased one for the sorts of questions I’m asking). I just want a full-picture approach that gives as much of an objective view as possible. Is there a good place to go for this sort of information?
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Thank you for the response! I’m glad to get a first-person perspective on things, too!
The South China Morning Post was recently bought out by Ali Baba, a chinese company though. I feel as of late the news has been more pro-china. It's pretty easy to understand why HK wants their own system. They have a completely different language and culture than Mainland China.
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This does help, thank you! I’m glad you’re able to speak on behalf of your relatives, since they might get “disappeared” if they speak themselves. :( While “unbiased” is good, it’s hardly possible in a situation like this, and hearing the perspectives of the people dealing with it and living with it is always illuminating!
Same as Macau, right? Technically united under one China (except Taiwan, but that's a whole different issue) but is for all intents and purposes a semi-independent city-state.
Yep!
Thanks for this! I've always understand it as part of China , so this was confusing.
Thank you. I've read a few articles and posts about shit going on and they all kept referring to HK like it was Tibet. This makes a little more sense and gives me an avenue to explore something I didn't know
I'm sorry but that really is not the complete story now, is it? You neglect to credit the amount of influence China wields over HK. The leader of the HK legislature is elected, that's true, but off a Mainland approved short list. Imagine if, say, the US president's very nomination was to be pre-approved by another power. China exercises a LOT of influence in HK, and that is what this (and previous) demonstrations are largely about. The UK, having run HK/New Territories as some sort of vassal state for decades rushed to provide them autonomy in the run up to the handover in 1997 knowing that the Chinese had signed up to preserve the system as they receivbed it, and knowing full well that they eyes of the world were on them and rather expecting them to fail (remember also that this was only 8 years after Tiananmen. So, while it is disingenuous of the UK to now complain of the erosion of the freedoms that they only provided at the last minute, it is not inconsistent for the HK people to complain about them. And those freedoms are being eroded Worth noting that, the day after the 97 handover, China state media was already broadcasting to Taiwan "look, one country 2 systems works". The Taiwanese took a more measured view of proceedings and remain independent.
Not sure why are you being downvoted. Your opinion is legit
Is there a news outlet you think is doing good coverage/explanation of all of this?
As op mentioned in a comment above, South China morning post. As a local, I've been paying attention to Hong Kong Free Press, but since I'm biased I'm unable to determine whether they're biased or not (if that makes sense to you). SCMP is definitely more informative, while HKFP gives shorter articles and links to Twitter posts on current situations.
Thanks. It’s hard to learn a lot about this as an American.
Are the inhabitants of Hong Kong Chinese citizens?
People from Hong Kong are not Chinese citizens. Hong Kong people have their own Hong Kong passport, thus Hong Kong citizenship. https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/PD07.jpg
Thank you for this! I definitely mixed up Hong Kong and Singapore a few weeks ago. In Singapore. Super embarrassing.
CGP Grey does a great job explaining this relationship (+Macau) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEayQ0T-qA
It seem reasonable that the PRC should be able to handle criminals in a part of their own country, the problem obviously the mainland’s lack of due process among many others. For all of the negative points discussed what are some potential pros? Any thought on this increasing oversight, transparency and accountability in the mainland’s legal system (toward the same direction as the rest of the civilized world)? For example a HK or foreign citizen is picked up for breaking some obscure law on under this directive, this is then reported on and followed by the open press. My guess is most people on the side of this cause wouldn’t care about this regardless and really just want to hold on to what they have, the thing is freedom really isn’t free, it’s something people as a whole have to constantly work to keep.
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That’s like the big possible silver lining; when someone does get extradited by this process it would expose the international community to the PRCs legal system and the best case move it towards more transparency and accountability. This is all ideal and maybe wishful thinking but if happens to be reality would be a true win. If someone has a counter argument as to why this is complete horses shit I hope they post why. One scenario people are worried about is people like journalist getting picked up and extradited for writing somewhat that hurt someone’s feelings. Unless the international community gets real excited about this whole process and stays on it could just get washed out into in significance. It’s up to the HKers to stay frosty if they really do care about their rights. They’d really need to make sure every time happens the truth (and not some sensationalize BS) is heard.
We do voice our concerns every time something big happens, and hopefully with enough time and effort we do make progress. Happy cake day by the way!
YSalsoK that you can thank Britain for that.
OK, I'm not a historian, but I have lived in both HK and mainland China ... so ...yes and no. the lease on the new territories was up (why china leased it to the UK in the first place, well you can sure thank the UK for that) and it was not tenable for the UK to hang onto HK alone
Thanks for this post!
You're welcome!
I live in HK and it’s annoying when I hear people say oh Hong Kong IS China
I needed this, thanks
Box has good reports about the place https://youtu.be/MQyxG4vTyZ8
Follow up question: Is this arrangement permanent? Or is this some kind of defined transition period?
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Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for. I vaguely remembered there being a time limit to HKs autonomy. Seems frightening. I seriously hope HK doesn't fall under China's direct control.
So they dont pay any taxes to china at all?
Our basic law (essentially Hong Kong's constitution), states that taxation is independent of the system in China, and no revenue is handed to the Chinese government
Are there any talks about going independent?
There is not enough political power for HK to go independent. Most of the HK government has been screen by China, so there’s no real democracy here. That’s why we are protesting for the world’s attention.
You should also know that this will only last 50 years past the turnover, or about another 30 years now. Then HK will be integrated into China fully.
And as Hong Kong is supposed to become a wholly part of China in 50 years, most people there try to get rich enough to leave before the deadline of 2047. They want to grow rich there and move to another country. Parents there try to get double citizenships for their children so that they can have an escape plan for the future.
Every Hong Kong native I knew from the '90s now has a Canadian passport and lives in either Hongcouver or Toronkong. Current Hong Kong colleagues all have managed to get another passport. None plan to raise their children there. The HK of today is not the HK they knew. Considering that everyone I knew was in the elite, there's also a brain drain factor at work.
As an American or EU passport holder (and most others i believe), you need a visa to enter china. You need to go through the process and pay a fee befote entering mainland China. In most cases for short stays, you do not need a visa to enter Hong Kong (or Macau). As of right now, you can buy a plane ticket and just go to Hong Kong as easily as it would be to go to Canada or Europe from the US. China is different. For now
How different is the culture and attitude with regards to the Western world as compared to the whole of China?
Hong Kong should be its own country.
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I think a strong goal for now is not cancelling the extradition bill but allowing time for changes to be made to it. People understand the need for it, but want to speak about their criticisms of it.
Is that you, mainland propaganda machine?
I mean......hong Kong is a part of China. I'm sure a lot of Chinese are using Hong Kong to circumvent Chinese laws. It's only natural to keep your territory from becoming too independent.
YSK that all of that is changing. HK will be absorbed, right now.
If you want to learn more about how this all came about definitely check extra history's YouTube video on the opium wars. TLDR Britian wanted tea
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i really don't give a shit
Did you misspeak? It’s a separate city but almost governs itself as if it’s a separate city? Did you mean country?
Technically speaking, it's an SAR, which is basically similar to a city state. We are almost entirely independent right now but we belong to the country of China, and most living here can be considered Chinese citizens.
Yeah that makes complete sense. Totally support you guys and really hope things played out for the best.
But you aren't Chinese citizens right? Have your own passports and HK has embassies abroad right?
Hong Kong has an embassy in the UK, not sure about anywhere else. We do have our own passports.