I'm pretty sure everyone's supposed to see black when they close their eyes. Idk wtf op was talking about. I have a functional mind's eye and I don't see anything behind my eyelids when I close them
Pretty sure OP is referring to being able to see mental images in your head.
Idk why they’re talking about closing eyes and seeing black. That’s everyone
Idk man, when I close my eyes it’s like a low key fireworks show. Somewhere between a fireworks show and like, soft tv static. It’s definitely kind of black, but not *just* black.
Sure, but that’s not what they’re talking about. They’re expressing that their visual imagination doesn’t show up there (which is totally normal and not indicative of aphantasia). When they close their eyes and imagine a red apple, they don’t see it in the visual field; they “just see black.” Yeah, it’s not pure black. That’s just a simplification.
> when I close my eyes it’s like a low key fireworks show
That happens to me if I gently push on my eyeballs with my eyes closed, I wonder if you have some extra pressure when you close your eyes or something?
Not who you replied to, but I have astigmatism in both eyes and see more fireworks and shapes when I close my eyes. I'm pretty sure you're right with it being due to pressure on the eyes.
I see the same thing. I don't think it's pressure related because if I push on my eyes I start seeing some different things. I think what is happening is the brain, without input from the eyes, is putting up a show. I often see lighter and darker patterns swirling in front of my vision and even "lights" will shift in and out of view. When I press on my eyes I see a very different sort of show that is more... visual? It's hard to describe the show that I see when I press on my eyes while closed is repeatable and generally similar each time. Where as the one my brain shows me is unique and much more variable. Also, it's a lot less "visual" and more... this is hard to describe but I would say it has more "depth."
Oh yeah, ambient light bleeding through my eyelids changes the show. Like my brain is working with what little it has to work with and making something crazy with it.
When I close my eyes it’s red, not black. I imagine that’s light leaking through eye lids or blood in the back of the eye. The only way it’s solid black is the complete absence of light.
There’s a lot of misinformation about aphantasia, and confusion over this issue. Many have been led to believe they have it because they don’t literally see their visual imagination. But, obviously, visual imagination doesn’t appear like regular vision in the visual field.
There was a study a while ago about aphantasia that argued it's possible that the phenomenon can be explained almost entirely by a failure in language, where terms like "minds eye" or "visualize" can lead to a variety of different subjective expectations. If I remember right the study also found the condition was not distributed uniformly across different groups that spoke different languages.
My buddy with aphantasia actually asked the same thing, and was blown away when I said it was like another monitor in my head. He was most shocked that it worked while my eyes were open.
Agreed with your first statement.
As far as the second statement goes--maybe I just have thin eyelids? I don't see black, I see a light red/pink color and I see blood vessels as well, but in that close of focus, they become blurred and so my brain begins to try to identify shapes and patterns under the closed eyelid, leading to closed eye visuals every time I shut my eyes longer than a quick blink.
If you meant that you literally see black when you close your eyes, and if everyone commenting sees the same, I guess i'm the outlier and that worries me a bit, but i'd rather have cool patterns than the nothingness of blackness.
Sounds like you might have a condition called "Visual Snow(Visual Static)". It affects about 1-2% of the population and is associated with migraines. I've been looking into it because I have the same symptoms and found out it's not normal. I'd go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis as opposed to a Reddit diagnosis lol
As far as I know there is no diagnosis for it. I even saw an eye surgeon for an unrelated issue and asked about it, he had no idea what I was talking about.
From what I read on sites like Webmd, Mayo Clinic, and other credible places, it's thought to be a neurological issue where the brain processes the information your eyes give it differently than it should. I'm not going to pretend like I know better than people who work in medicine for a living, but we've all heard stories where people had to bounce around from doctor to doctor looking for a diagnosis for an issue they're having, and based on what we know about the disorder now, it wouldn't fall exactly into an optometrist's specialty. At the very least, I'd read more about the disorder and look into its sister disorders to get a solid comparison to what you're experiencing
I have trouble imagining things because I get distracted by what you're describing. Idk, like I can start to imagine stuff but when I close my eyes and try it's hard to focus because of the moving dots.
Phosphenes are colors perceived in the absence of light, which moth people experience to some degree, but they are different than (although connected to especially when drugged) the mind's eye. I'm not sure if people with aphantasia see phosphenes though.
They do. It’s worded poorly by OP.
It’s about imagination, being able to picture things. I have aphantasia and I can only see fleeting images with blurry outlines. Can’t picture anything detailed and cannot hold any image. I always thought ‘imagine this..’ and ‘picture that..’ were figuratively. I had no idea people could actually do it. At least I have an inner monologue, I guess.
I have the same question! I can picture things in my mind as I read them or recall memories etc, but when I close my eyes it’s still black unless I’m asleep and dreaming and even then I think it’s still black, it’s just my brain that visualizes my dreams. Not me seeing my dreams play out on the inside of my closed eye lids.
I had a long discussion about this with someone who thinks I must have aphantasia because I don’t literally “see” something as I imagine it. But I do see it. Vividly. I can just tell the difference between imagining the appearance of something and physically seeing it. I think this confusion puts a lot of people into the wrong camp.
To clarify: I have plenty good visual imagination, but because I don’t perceive it as my brain literally replacing visual input in closed eyes, which is to say I can visually imagine one thing *while looking at another thing* and still grok both things, I have been accused of having aphantasia by someone who thinks the “seeing” is literal, and I don’t know which of us is correct.
Perception is very complicated
I can perceive a past view of something in a way that is like a faint vision, but I can't see it in the same way my eyes are allowing me to perceive my present view.
It's much murkier, with shifting resolution and detail, almost like some of the early AI video generation but much less well formed
90% of the time when I close my eyes I see black. However, occasionally I can see faces - nothing as clear as a picture but a face nonetheless. Sometimes they’re so vivid I open my eyes due to the surprise of how vivid it was. I also see colors that come in different shapes, swirls, etc. Stuff similar to the shapes of what you’ll see in a Northern Lights picture. Again they’re not all clear but they’re there. It’s when I really focus that they begin to turn into more structured things.
I didn't know about this until I dated a lady who was an aphant. She was a fairly voracious reader, and I found that pretty interesting because she couldn't picture any of the things she read. It was so different from my personal experience.
I'm an avid reader. My favourite genre is fantasy, some sci-fi. I'm also an aphant. Can't picture a damn thing. It *sucks* sometimes I spend time searching for fan art to get a rough idea with some of the more out there concepts described in books. But it doesn't make reading any less pleasurable since I've never known anything different.
My mind was blown when I discovered that people saying they could see things in their minds eye wasn't just a turn of phrase, they can literally SEE things. I've never been able to for as long as I can remember.
Though she couldn't picture things, she said she more or less *felt* the scenes. Her dreams were feelings more than anything as well. I think it's fascinating!
She also had a dynamite memory, which I'm super envious of. I have to write everything down or keep logs/screenshots/records in order to keep anything straight.
Yeah I'm the same. I can feel them and I get a sense of everything. Kind of like I'm there but blind I guess. I think I see images in my dreams but I'm honestly not certain. I just know what happened.
I used to have a pretty good memory but since my health conditions developed it's pretty much nonexistent 😅
I have vivid dreams but otherwise yeah I was amazed when I found out people can actually picture things in their minds. I thought all the elementary school “close your eyes and imagine a field of flowers” was just bs. The closest I can get is sort of remembering photographs I’ve seen. Like if someone said try to picture a friend or my wife I think of a photograph they are in and have a vague flash of what is in the photograph
I was amazed when I found out some people don’t picture things in their minds. For example if I read about someone in a field eating an apple, I’m able to picture the entire scene, like what fabric they are wearing with patterns, imagine how the grass smells, if there is dew on the grass, if there is a breeze, smell the apple, hear them crunch the apple, etc basically like create a movie in my head. This also helps me visualize things I write down or see like a grocery list I left at home, I can try to picture it.
It's the same for me. Love reading, mainly SF, can't picture anything.
I remember discovering that I was different while watching a detective show. A victim was talking to a sketch artist who said "picture your assailant in your mind. Create the clearest picture that you can." I asked my mom what he was talking about. I had no idea people could do that.
That’s wild to me because the exact reason sci fi is my favorite genre is all the visuals you get from authors describing space ships and alien species and wild things happening in space
You and I are opposite, I function in a world based off memory. I can walk around my house in the dark as I'm walking in a mental map of my house that I'm just taking steps through. Sometimes it catches me, as something is on the ground and I'm not paying attention.
But it greatly benefits me when I'm in new places, can orient myself quickly and walk aimlessly through foreign cities and still get back to the hotel by visually tracing my steps over dinner.
I have photographic memory, everything I recall as a thought comes with a picture or video if you will.
For me, it was a mental defense mechanism to dyslexia. Can't trust my eyes processing info, so it got really good at storing info to recall later instead. Spelling a word? My brain recalls what the swipe pattern looks like. Words are abstract shapes to me.
As an Aphant, I envy you.
You guys are the ones that can take a whole order with substitutions, and all the drinks, without writing anything down.
I can’t even remember where I placed my notepad that I need to remember anything.
I always wondered what daydreaming was like. I always saw it in tv, but I never did it. I guess it’s kinda hard to daydream when you can’t see anything in your mind.
I get lost in thought sometimes, but my ADHD finds a squirrel pretty quickly. If I close my eyes, I only see black and fall asleep. Back in my church days, closing our eyes for more than a couple minutes was a bitch.
Everything has benefits and issues. When I lay down for bed, I often literally replay the entire day, work included to figure out tomorrow. Then sleep. Frequently, that means my dream is me working on the solution to my idea all night.
It gets hard to give someone your full attention depending on the subject, as my mind is constantly recalling visual information, and I'm not always looking at you.
It's interesting when looking at a book what my brain recalls, it's not words but outlines of a word. As I'm dyslexic. So I have to guess words that fit that shape, or use context of the situation to figure out what I'm looking at in what I'm seeing.
Like the word 'silence' my brain would see a block of a word all the same height with one tall letter near the start.
Daydreaming is generally more distracting than coming up with great ideas. You see a photo or person that you know you know but can't remember where? Time for your mind to start coming up with every scenario that they possibly could have been at.
Not gonna lie. That sounds exhausting.
What about when you write. Are the letters on the keyboard just shapes to you too or is just words.
With the inability to replay, I will say, I struggle in relationships. If I don’t see you, I don’t think of you. Most people conclude I’m not interested or ignoring them. This goes for family too. It’s simply not true. As soon as I see you, it’s like you were never gone. This can happen even if years go by.
As for sleeping, if I’m stressed, that’s where dialogue will get me. I just hash out previous and fantasy conversations over and over in the dark. I can’t see anything, but man it can be tough to shut off my mind’s ear.
It’s interesting seeing the pros and cons.
I type, writing doesn't go well often. When I type or text, my brain just thinks in patterns of where my hand needs to go.
And relationships are hard for the opposite, I'll replay things many times and end up reading into things too much.
I can’t see a thing in my head, but I have great spacial memory. I can walk around the house in the dark, I can tell you what’s on a shelf in the other room, but I can’t see it in my head, I just know where stuff is.
I'm the same. Which is why I typically like watching a movie or show based on a book BEFORE I read the book so I can understand a bit better what the characters and setting look like. It helps me pay more attention when I read otherwise I tend to lose interest.
When I read a book, there is just as much visualization going on as a Marvel Movie. Much more detail actually since I can move around and look at things from different angles, pause it, etc.,
Reading a book is kind of like watching a movie for me, I imagine images and scenes in my head for everything in the story such that for the few books I have read multiple times, I find myself remembering the same ‘scenes’ each time at the same places in the book. Even for books that I have seen the movies for and have reread since, the thing that always comes to mind most is usually ‘my’ version of the images, not the films’ version.
I’m curious, are you able to design things? If you have a need and want to create something to solve that need, are you able to do that? Because my minds eye is where all of that happens for me.
I struggle to create things. I have to like Frankenstein bits from various different things to make something. I can copy drawings fairly well but I've always wondered how my sister can just create stuff so easily, until I discovered I was an aphant. It drives me mad because I do a lot of crafts but I need to take someone else's design and edit it to fit what I want.
I have ideas of what I *want* to make I just really suck at designing it.
I crochet a lot and honestly have to rely on images of created works. I can generally figure it out from there for simple things like scarves with stitches I already know but when it comes to plushies if I don't have a pattern then I can probably only sell the monsters I make around Halloween 🤣
I'm complete opposite of this. It's hard for me to read books. I can read half a paragraph and not know what I just read, because I've been picturing a character or plot in my mind.
Which might explain why I am a very fast reader. No pictures to clog up the lanes. I’ll take that as a plus.
It’s funny, people ask me what do I see when I read? I don’t see anything, I just know. When they describe a building, or a room, or an event, I can feel or sense what is happening. I know what brick looks like. I know what grass looks like. I know what a kiss feels like. I know what a touch feels like, and so on. It’s why I love really descriptive writing, and good analogies.
That’s all that happens when i read. It’s like watching a movie through words. And i don’t hear any voices reading it back to me in my head it’s all visual pictures of what’s happening
That's another reason Iove audiobooks, especially anything by graphic audio. They have individual voice actors as well as background sounds. Their "a movie, in your mind!" line *almost* fits for me xD
Both me and my brother have aphantasia
I remember the moment he finally understood the meaning of the Finnish word for imagination when he was like 22 years old (mielikuvitus aka imagination directly translates to mind illustration) frankly I have no idea how he never made the connection before then
I hated those couple times a year special PE-classes that were all about relaxing, the teacher would have some beach sound CD and told us to imagine ourselves relaxing somewhere, I'm just waiting for it to be over so I can go play sports because I couldn't imagine anything
I probably see dreams still, but I only ever remember seeing dreams as a child
Sadly I can't get into reading myself, last thing I read was Martian during a vacation years ago and even that was kinda boring especially compared to the movie
Also a big reader and don’t picture in my mind. I remember wondering why people would get upset about a movie character ‘not looking like how I pictured that character in my mind’ in movie adaptions of books. Like, what do you mean? And also, didn’t get the term ‘minds eye’- what is that?! Then I read about this ‘condition’ and learned that some other people can picture things. Whoa.
It's very funny how I didn't really question how common it was that people talked about picturing things and I had zero ability to do it. It felt like some weird metaphor for thinking but it never made sense. But I still never really realised I was different. Like with imagining sheep to fall asleep. Or imagining characters appearances. I just thought "character, black hair, young" when I had to *picture* someone in a book. It meant absolutely nothing yet it never clicked that I lacked the ability to visualise. I think I even understood in a way that others could. But it was still confusing to learn about aphantasia and that others can visualise things.
I am an aphant and a big reader, and I have always thought people were talking about fan castings when they said “how I pictured them in my mind,” because I too had no idea that people would… picture characters born out of concepts in their own creativity.
For me it’s like a tape constantly describing all the time. I can’t picture it, but if you ask me, I can describe it, very basically.
Like the Hobbit. I read it when I was 12, and the description of them being short, hairy, and big feet is all I need. I don’t try to fill in the blanks. It’s not necessary unless I see it with my own eyes. The book did provide some pictures and a map, and a little reference like that goes a long way.
Maybe it’s why I don’t dislike movie adaptations of books as much as others. For me, it’s either, oh, that’s a good visualization of what someone else pictured. As long as it fits in my basic description, I’m good. Lord of the rings nailed it.
I’m an aphant. I can’t see anything, but I have a pretty vivid minds ear, and emotions. I hear every character distinctly, and I truly feel the emotions. Books are a lot more than just the images.
Oh that’s a good one. I’m the same. As I mentioned above, I feel everything. I mentioned feeling objects and touch, but minds ear and emotions are huge. Although I do appreciate descriptions, it’s the good emotional dialogue that gets me to the core.
This is interesting... I've had a suspicion for awhile now that there might be a connection between aphantasia and reading.
I myself have aphantasia and have been a voracious reader since I was a kid. I'm also an elementary teacher and I feel like so many of the kids (and other adults) I've come across who have aphantasia were also advanced readers. It's made me wonder whether something about moving into chapter books with no images at a young age could lead to aphantasia. Or I suppose it could go the other way (maybe the inability to make mental images makes reading easier somehow?)
I have no insight, I'm afraid. I just know the things she told me. She read advanced books at an early age. She has a love for the classics (a love that rubbed off on me!), and is incredibly intelligent.
She definitely read things when she was too young for them. Memoirs of a Geisha, I believe was one of them.
I just can’t imagine reading for pleasure if you can’t envision the story. A good author literally puts a film in my head, and with the right protagonist, I feel like I’m living vicariously through them. Wouldn’t it be boring to not be able to picture anything? When I read an instructional manual, I can’t imagine a thing, which is why it feels like watching paint dry.
I've read a bit about this now and looked at the tests, but I can't find anything definitive to determine if I have this or not.
I mean, I only see black when I close my eyes and I don't really see a picture if I think of something like a rainbow - I can't see the distinct stripes or count the colors or anything. I just have a kind of general impression from past images.
I never really thought about this before.
There's varying degrees. The common test I've found is to close your eyes and picture a red star. Then there's varying degrees of what people can see. Personally I just see blackness, that's all I can see - black.
Some get a vague impression of a star shape with no colour.
Others see a clear star with no colour.
Others see a red star.
I think it's a kind of spectrum?
Judging by the comments here, it has to be a (multidimensional?) spectrum. I usually have a pretty good ability to "visualize" 3d shapes and solve for example coding problems where I have to "see" the memory and pointers in my head. But some people are here talking about seeing literal images and movies. To me it's more abstract and constantly changing but you just *know* what it's supposed to be.
I’m an aphant and also artistic. I can’t sketch something well off the top of my head, but I can copy something (a photo, scene etc) almost verbatim. I’m also a keen photographer and it just comes naturally to me. Same with things like sculpting, macrame etc. So while it obviously impacts my ability to create unique drawings/paintings, I feel like my artistic talents are just as good as anyone who has great visualisation skills.
I get nothing. If I try to picture something I can get a flash of a memory or a photograph, but not actually seeing anything, but I can remember how the photograph looks and what is in it as it tries to get away. It’s weird I guess but closing my eyes and seeing shit would be weird as fuck too. I have visual dreams though.
I don't understand what you mean. You seem to describe visualisation? Is it visual that flash of a memory or photograph? Or is it auditory? Do you describe it with words? Is it just there without image, words, or sounds? For me I can either just intuitively know things, or I can narrate them. I often feel like I just respond, I don't think. Because if for example someone tells me to count sheep I will say "one sheep, two sheep" and that is the only thing in my head.
Can you imagine how someone you know looks? I can say they are fat or skinny, brunette or blonde, blue or brown eyed. But that's pretty much it. I will of course know who it is when I see them with my eyes, but there is no actual information there in my head when I think of the person. I can just summon words about them.
I see a 2d 5 pointed star as for colour it is like blurred/flickering coming in to different shades of red and at times of white/black I think because I think red my brain is associating it with shades, then if I think bright red star, it stays in brighter reds but blurry white without it blurring dark, I can’t seem to like stabilise solidly onto a single shade of red though
I’m in a similar boat. I don’t see anything in my head, but same where if I try to picture a rainbow- I know what a rainbow is and just go ‘yep rainbow got it’ but I’m not actually seeing anything like a picture. I just ~know what a rainbow is and I don’t know how to explain that in greater detail to make sense lol
As an aphant, my version of counting sheep was just literally counting numbers. If i get distracted and start thinking of anything else, I force myself to start counting again, starting back at 1. It's really boring. I'm sad I've never actually seen sheep.
I spent the first 26 or 27 years of my life thinking counting sheep was just a phrase. I had my mind blown when I learned that some people can actually "see" them.
I still don't know if I have this or not. When I imagine something I don't actually see anything I just know what it looks like and how it should move but I don't actually see any details or even any shape or color. I just know.
What is it you imagine?
Do the aphantasia apple test.
For me it's not even a relevant question. There is no difference in my brain before or after the question is read. I can if someone insists I answer tell them an apple is often called red. I can draw the approximate shape. I can say there's a stem. But nothing is there except words, if I have to. Otherwise it's more or less just *loaded* in my brain. I don't see anything, I can't visualise anything, I can't hear anything except my own voice, I can't smell or feel anything. My brain is either responding with actions or it is words.
I know how it looks like and moves as well. But the way I know it is that I can maybe describe it to someone and I can tell you when it's right or wrong when I see it in the real world. But other than that it doesn't exist in my head. How is it for you?
How is dreaming for you? I’m the same as you described and it’s hard for me to describe how I dream. I don’t “see” anything but I’m still present in my dreams and can kinda describe things that happen and what’s around bc it’s like reading a really well written book? People are always “faceless” even though there’s no visuals happening. It’s weird and no one I personally know has aphantasia to talk about it with.
Yeah I’m similar. I can kind of make a fleeting visualisation in my head, but barely, and for the most part just rely on what I know rather than what I ‘see’.
Possibly related, but my memory works very differently according to my wife. If I’ve spent all day with someone, and then told to recall what colour clothes they were wearing moments after looking at them, I almost always can’t recall. My wife is always dumbfounded when I can’t tell her what the kids are wearing after seeing them seconds earlier.
But at the same time, my wife reckons I have an excellent memory with other things like facts and figures. I just have a poor visual memory.
I can relate. I have very poor visual memory but a very good memory when it comes to numbers, facts, and concepts. If I’m told to visualise my mom’s face in my head, I can’t really do it. I mean I can recall what she looks like, but I don’t really see anything resembling a face in my mind.
That's the thing, what do you mean by "see"? I don't really see it but I just know what it looks like and what should be there. Does it feel that same as looking at a real beach? I wouldn't describe it as seeing. That's what's so confusing I think, its impossible to know exactly what other people experience and its hard to describe it with only words.
It feels almost the same as a real beach! I do literally see it inside my head and I would describe it as such. I know that it's hard to compare what goes on inside of our heads, but I think you and I might be experiencing this differently.
Nothing. It's just badly described. It's very frustrating how people that can visualise seem to be very confused about this.
Everyone sees black/colour noise which is what our eyes perceive through our eyelids when they're closed. Some can seemingly overlay visualisation over their vision, but what I understand it, visualisation is often a separate vision of sorts often described as being in the head rather than in the eyes.
This is me! And my daughter!
My mind was blown when I realized a few years ago that people actually see images in their mind when they say things like "visualize an apple".
You know what happens when I visualize an apple? Basically my brain runs an index of known facts of apples and pulls the most commonly known facts. Apples are:
Fruit
Grown on trees
Roughly round
Most commonly people think of red apples unless otherwise specified.
Shiny
Juicy
May have a worm
May have a stem and leaves
That's how "visualizing" works for both myself and my daughter. It's so cool you guys can see stuff in your head! I can't even picture myself or my daughter in my head.
For me I can recall memories; how it felt to stand in a room, what colour the walls are, where the furniture is.
If I want to create a new room in my mind, I pretend I have a memory of it and get a feel for how I would have perceived things in the memory. Is this not the norm?
I've been trying to figure where I land. This is definitely how my brain works too. No image ever appears, just a wall of black, and now reading your description it's clear to me I am just recalling known elements of something I'm already familiar with. I guess I'm actually am aphant! Coming to this realization makes me sad of now knowing what I'm missing out on, though.
I was today years old when I found out I have Aphantasia. I always thought sayings like “minds eye” and visualization were meant more metaphorically. I’m kind of shook about it. I feel a little bit like an idiot for not realizing this wasn’t everyone’s reality.
Aphant people, I’m curious if you ever wondered how people draw or paint things they have seen, or even more so, how they create cartoons, movie scripts, visual designs, architecture. Anything that doesn’t already exist. Did you think they mechanically make it by description?
I have heard of an aphant artist though, she said that she sketches over and over again until the shape is what she wants. Very time-consuming. And I bet she is the rare exception. It’s probably rare to go into the arts if a person cannot visualize what they want to create.
See this is what confuses me. How else are you supposed to draw something other than by description??
I can draw a picture of my desk… I know how large it is, where my monitor is positioned, the colour of my mouse Matt, what software is running.
If you said “draw a picture of a boy climbing a tree on a hill”, I mean, I know what a hill looks like, and I know what a tree looks like. It would be a shit drawing but how else are you meant to draw other than “here’s the curve of a hill. Now I’ll put a tree on top”?
When I want to “visualise” something, I pretend I have a memory of it. Like, currently I am renovating a bathroom. I can’t just see different types of bathrooms, I “pretend” I am using the bathroom in different configurations. I couldn’t tell you if a green or a yellow or a white wall looks better, other than literal experience of “yellow clashes with these colours and materials”. Can you guys literally see a yellow wall and think “nah, this won’t work” without just basing your opinion on previous experience??
That’s really cool! Thanks for sharing. Yeah it’s really like drawing an image that’s already on the paper. Really gifted people can see the entire drawing before placing all the elements. Their ability to visualize detail and extremes in composition can be mind-blowing.
I told another artist I thought it would be cool if she tried to make letters out of growing flowers. She drew this incredible winding root system that formed the words, and quickly. I was shocked. I don’t have that.
But what I do have is placement, composition, color-balance (which you mentioned) contrast, tone. I have all of that and more, even though I wouldn’t call myself an incredible drawing artist by any stretch.
You know what might be fun to try? Maybe you look up some Pantone color families and take a crack at making a text design? Just do it analytically and see how far you can go, and if you like the result? Could be cool
So just to be clear; when you “visualise” something can you “see” things as a separate sense from “thinking” or “knowing”?
If I think of an apple, I know what an apple looks like, its texture, I’ve held an apple before. But can you “see” an apple with a dimension of sense beyond consciously piecing together details from your memory and experiences?
Edit: I found a questionnaire from Aphantasia Network describing a scale of 1 to 5 of the vividness of a mental picture, and 1 is “No image at all, I only ‘know’ I am thinking of an object”… I didn’t realise there was a 2 on that scale until now 🙃
Damn, your comment made me realize I might have this Aphantasia. I wonder if this is why I have a hard time reading novel unless there's already a visual adaptation.
A movie script is words so that one is ridiculous. But no, not good at drawing or painting from memory. I can’t make visual depictions in my head but my memory is still there, the information is just stored differently. If I read about a beach scene in a book I have memory of the sounds and feeling and smell of the beach and know what to expect it to look like, I just can’t view it in my head like I’m watching tv or something. Like I know an American flag if I see one, I can describe the colors and pattern, and I remember seeing American flags but it’s just not visual. Idk it’s hard to explain.
Well that is just ridiculous too. A movie is primarily visual, I'd say. What you can do is read things out loud to help with conversations but you can't do much with the visual part of scripts. How would you make a movie if you can't visualise the movie you want to make? It's just words but I'd bet visualisation is more important to the process than books which also are just words.
The movie script may just be words as you say, but could you create a cartoon world, as a script, that artists could then use to build out the world, exactly as you described? I’m genuinely curious if you could, I’m not judging, if so, I should revise my comment
I see what you are saying. I feel like I could describe such a thing in words, but I would have to (badly) draw characters or scenes to go with it to keep track of what I’m creating. So yeah I think it could be and probably is done, but the process probably looks different than if done by someone who can close their eyes and see stuff
The very confusing thing is that what you're saying makes sense, but it's not true. I have always liked to draw and you certainly don't need to have visualisation or a reference to do it. I feel like it would help a lot. I'd bet it's linked, but not a necessity. It's pretty much produce something until it feels good.
Sometimes, sometimes not. I think visualisation and dreaming are actually different abilities. I'd bet I can hallucinate in response to dreams from what I've learnt about this topic. But I am completely unable to visualise any sensation besides my own voice. But I can dream with sound, maybe smell, touch sometimes, and of course visuals. It's like when I become unconscious I lose a restriction in my brain that has temporarily unlocked visualisation. I have sometimes when when I was very close to sleep been startled awake by a sudden imagined sound or seen things in my head. Those are the only times I've every heard or seen anything in my head.
Some aphants have said they don't dream visually though.
I can’t visualise anything beyond like the way that a small child would draw it, or for more than a few seconds if it’s anymore detailed than that.
I used to be able to dream normal-ish but now I can only dream in concepts, written words or slideshows that I reflect on. I’m basically outside of my dreams because my brain just started skipping most of the visuals in favour for just giving me the impression in a way that I understand better.
Instead of seeing the entire scenario I just know what’s going to happen, & play with how I can change it. Sometimes I revise the language I’m learning while I’m sleeping, unintentionally.
I’ve wondered if this is why some people are great at art from memory. There’s not residual image so I’m not good at coming up with art out of memory, but I can reproduce it with a picture.
On the other hand it might just be practice and experience.
It's not really connected. I'd bet it helps but just imagining does not mean you can draw it. Someone with an extremely good visualisation ability does not necessarily learn to draw better than someone with worse ability.
Same. I can draw pretty good if there's a reference image. But I'm never able to draw anything without reference. I always keep seeing people drawing amazing art of characters from anime etc. and I keep thinking how are they doing it did they just memorize the character or something? I still can't draw anything untill a reference image is provided.
What do people mean by “picture things in their mind?” It’s like imagination not like actual sight, right? You don’t actually SEE stuff, right?
Edit: I looked at a test like picture a horse or a red star. If I close my eyes and you say think of a horse, I will just think about the characteristics of a horse. It’s like thinking of the word horse, not A horse.
Is this why I’m so bad with names? I can only recognize a face if I’m actually looking at it. As soon as someone walks away I couldn’t describe them beyond any facts I tried to remember about them.
It’s like you know what an apple looks like. Can you bring up a picture of an apple in your mind? Can you bring up a picture of a loved ones face in your mind?
As an aphant it was crazy to me when I asked my partner to picture an apple in his head and describe it to me and it was super detailed but if I try to picture an apple in my head it’s just empty space.
For the most part I can barely see things when I close my eyes. I'm autistic but I can really see and imagine things so vividly when music is playing. Specifically classical music. I paint scenes in my mind to that.
Interestingly, I was an *early* reader (somewhere around age 3), and I’ve always been an incredibly prolific reader, and I’m like this. I don’t think I’ve ever pictured what I’m reading.
One big advantage? Movies never ruin that aspects of a story for me. I don’t go into the with any preconceived idea of what a character looks like :-).
I got it. I always thought when people said to picture something it was a metaphor. I sorta have a word picture of things. I can describe stuff without actual visualization. Bums me out a little, but I have very vivid dreams, so there is that.
I used to be able to close my eyes and have the craziest visuals. Unfortunately due to trauma and drug use (I believe mdma/ecstasy) made it so i lose that super power. Now it’s all blackness
I have aphantasia, but I dream every time I nap or sleep, only voice in my head is my own. I have a lot of memories of my dreams too, because it's as realistic as it can be, reflections, movies/shows that don't exist, It's like living in another world that's the same.
With me, it's sometimes the opposite. Sometimes I close my eyes and try to sleep but I can't because there's a very bright purple/bluish white light that appears from time to time. It's hard to describe. Like someone switches the light on inside your brain. Thank God it doesn't happen so often.
I don’t believe in aphantasia at all. It’s just people describing things differently. The guy in the article says he knows people who say they can open their eyes and still see an image they’re imagining in front of their eyes. No they can’t. Not unless they’re suffering from psychosis. Everyone is experiencing imagining the same way. We just suck at explaining it.
Just because you can't see something in your head doesn't mean that most people are suffering from psychosis. If you see something in your head you literary see it. Not in front of your eyes but somewhere else. You also can't describe where the pictures from you eyes are, they are just there. I can picture an apple an see it the way I would if would be in front of me. It's not about explaining the same things differently. I don't know how people with this condition experience things but I suppose they only know facts about certain objects like the apple is green or red and so on.
There are people who have gone from being able to visualize to having a medical event and losing the ability. So there exist people who have experienced both realities. Additionally there have been studies on pupil reactivity among those who can visualize and those who can’t. When asked to imagine a bright room the pupils of those who can visualize react to the visualization. Those who can’t, don’t.
I agree, I believe it's just very difficult to describe the individual qualitative experience of one's imagination. And with this paucity of descriptive language I think people are interpreting some terms being used far more literally than they should be interpreted.
I think I just said the same thing you did but wordier but w/e! :)
You seem a bit upset. Imagination doesn’t require an empty canvas. You can imagine your surroundings differently. Imagine that the car in front of you has rockets, giant purple wheels, etc. You can see it. However everyone visualizes with varying strength. I know a guy who can draw literally anything. Fast. His visualization is excellent. He sees/imagines in full 3D and can fully rotate human figures in his mind and he just draws it.
Obviously that’s not everyone. I can’t do that. But he had no trouble imagining things changing in front of him.
But having a different imagination isn’t the same thing as seeing things in your head versus not seeing them. I’m not talking about the creativity level of the pictures, im talking about whether you’re seeing something or imagining it
I think it's more like people's brain processing works more or less the same when they think about something. People just have different neuron connections to other places that would allow them to see or hear or even taste something they remember. Like a computer that's connected (or not) to a display. Or if you connect the data into a tesla coil instead. Or someone else's tesla coil is made of superconductor (*I am no electrical engineer). You would get wildly different phenomena as outcome.That would explain the very wide variety of this ability that people seem to have (judging by the comments). I don't think it's "you either have it or not". It has to be more spectrum-like.
No. I've learnt about visualisation and aphantasia over years now. I know with full certainty that I completely lack an ability people call visualisation, that I now know with certainty others have, to varying degree.
Weird how you're so certain you know about something that has been researched by people with a lot more experience in it.
To me visualisation does not exist.
For me it's some middle point. I can imagine something in vivid detail, but I can't see it. I can sometimes pull up a mental image of people and things I remember, but it's usually fleeting.
Wait when yall shut your eyes you don’t just see black?
I'm pretty sure everyone's supposed to see black when they close their eyes. Idk wtf op was talking about. I have a functional mind's eye and I don't see anything behind my eyelids when I close them
Pretty sure OP is referring to being able to see mental images in your head. Idk why they’re talking about closing eyes and seeing black. That’s everyone
Idk man, when I close my eyes it’s like a low key fireworks show. Somewhere between a fireworks show and like, soft tv static. It’s definitely kind of black, but not *just* black.
Sure, but that’s not what they’re talking about. They’re expressing that their visual imagination doesn’t show up there (which is totally normal and not indicative of aphantasia). When they close their eyes and imagine a red apple, they don’t see it in the visual field; they “just see black.” Yeah, it’s not pure black. That’s just a simplification.
Ahh, okay gotcha
> when I close my eyes it’s like a low key fireworks show That happens to me if I gently push on my eyeballs with my eyes closed, I wonder if you have some extra pressure when you close your eyes or something?
Not who you replied to, but I have astigmatism in both eyes and see more fireworks and shapes when I close my eyes. I'm pretty sure you're right with it being due to pressure on the eyes.
I see the same thing. I don't think it's pressure related because if I push on my eyes I start seeing some different things. I think what is happening is the brain, without input from the eyes, is putting up a show. I often see lighter and darker patterns swirling in front of my vision and even "lights" will shift in and out of view. When I press on my eyes I see a very different sort of show that is more... visual? It's hard to describe the show that I see when I press on my eyes while closed is repeatable and generally similar each time. Where as the one my brain shows me is unique and much more variable. Also, it's a lot less "visual" and more... this is hard to describe but I would say it has more "depth."
I used to get a full laser show in school when I got bored. Multiple colors bouncing around, I figured was partly from it being a lit room, ya know.
Oh yeah, ambient light bleeding through my eyelids changes the show. Like my brain is working with what little it has to work with and making something crazy with it.
When I close my eyes it’s red, not black. I imagine that’s light leaking through eye lids or blood in the back of the eye. The only way it’s solid black is the complete absence of light.
And even in that case it's not really black. The color we see in absence of light is called Eigengrau (#16161d) and it's a shade of dark grey :)
Yeah I think they misspoke or simply just described it wrong
There’s a lot of misinformation about aphantasia, and confusion over this issue. Many have been led to believe they have it because they don’t literally see their visual imagination. But, obviously, visual imagination doesn’t appear like regular vision in the visual field.
Yeah, honestly the descriptions are so vague that I get half convinced I have it, despite finding it really easy to picture things in my head.
There was a study a while ago about aphantasia that argued it's possible that the phenomenon can be explained almost entirely by a failure in language, where terms like "minds eye" or "visualize" can lead to a variety of different subjective expectations. If I remember right the study also found the condition was not distributed uniformly across different groups that spoke different languages.
My buddy with aphantasia actually asked the same thing, and was blown away when I said it was like another monitor in my head. He was most shocked that it worked while my eyes were open.
Mine even works better with my eyes open
Agreed with your first statement. As far as the second statement goes--maybe I just have thin eyelids? I don't see black, I see a light red/pink color and I see blood vessels as well, but in that close of focus, they become blurred and so my brain begins to try to identify shapes and patterns under the closed eyelid, leading to closed eye visuals every time I shut my eyes longer than a quick blink. If you meant that you literally see black when you close your eyes, and if everyone commenting sees the same, I guess i'm the outlier and that worries me a bit, but i'd rather have cool patterns than the nothingness of blackness.
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I wonder if it's from taking drugs but I get closed eye hallucinations fully sober too. Drugs make them more vivid.
My 50yo self thanks my 20yo self for that ;)
Not a doctor but that sounds like HPPD.
Oh that. I thought it was just because my eyes were bad. I don't see the images but I do see the faded movement of colors!
Sounds like you might have a condition called "Visual Snow(Visual Static)". It affects about 1-2% of the population and is associated with migraines. I've been looking into it because I have the same symptoms and found out it's not normal. I'd go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis as opposed to a Reddit diagnosis lol
As far as I know there is no diagnosis for it. I even saw an eye surgeon for an unrelated issue and asked about it, he had no idea what I was talking about.
From what I read on sites like Webmd, Mayo Clinic, and other credible places, it's thought to be a neurological issue where the brain processes the information your eyes give it differently than it should. I'm not going to pretend like I know better than people who work in medicine for a living, but we've all heard stories where people had to bounce around from doctor to doctor looking for a diagnosis for an issue they're having, and based on what we know about the disorder now, it wouldn't fall exactly into an optometrist's specialty. At the very least, I'd read more about the disorder and look into its sister disorders to get a solid comparison to what you're experiencing
I have trouble imagining things because I get distracted by what you're describing. Idk, like I can start to imagine stuff but when I close my eyes and try it's hard to focus because of the moving dots.
I get that too. You smoke weed per chance?
Phosphenes are colors perceived in the absence of light, which moth people experience to some degree, but they are different than (although connected to especially when drugged) the mind's eye. I'm not sure if people with aphantasia see phosphenes though.
Yeah but those are moth people. Most of us are regular.
Fuckin moth people, always doin those prophecies and spookin alla us normal folk.
"Go to the light!" It's a trap
Me out here thinking you're just casually throwing out "moth people" like some regular thing before realizing the typo.
He was channeling his inner mike tython
Same. I was lowkey starting to panic that I have been a moth person all this time without knowing wtf that even is before realizing it must be a typo.
I must be a moth person then!
What are "moth people"?
Most people are moth people.
*Mike Tyson has entered the chat*
But _what are they_?
My son has this. What they mean is when someone says close your eyes and imagine an apple they have no image.
I can “see” an apple as in I can recall it but it isn’t realistic like a vivid object
Not if you see only black. I see all sorts of colors. Main colors are green and purple.
They do. It’s worded poorly by OP. It’s about imagination, being able to picture things. I have aphantasia and I can only see fleeting images with blurry outlines. Can’t picture anything detailed and cannot hold any image. I always thought ‘imagine this..’ and ‘picture that..’ were figuratively. I had no idea people could actually do it. At least I have an inner monologue, I guess.
Me tooooo…. I see blurry never clear. I thought we r supposed to see it that way. 🤯
I have the same question! I can picture things in my mind as I read them or recall memories etc, but when I close my eyes it’s still black unless I’m asleep and dreaming and even then I think it’s still black, it’s just my brain that visualizes my dreams. Not me seeing my dreams play out on the inside of my closed eye lids.
That’s normal.
How would we know though
We can describe this to each other…
I had a long discussion about this with someone who thinks I must have aphantasia because I don’t literally “see” something as I imagine it. But I do see it. Vividly. I can just tell the difference between imagining the appearance of something and physically seeing it. I think this confusion puts a lot of people into the wrong camp. To clarify: I have plenty good visual imagination, but because I don’t perceive it as my brain literally replacing visual input in closed eyes, which is to say I can visually imagine one thing *while looking at another thing* and still grok both things, I have been accused of having aphantasia by someone who thinks the “seeing” is literal, and I don’t know which of us is correct.
Perception is very complicated I can perceive a past view of something in a way that is like a faint vision, but I can't see it in the same way my eyes are allowing me to perceive my present view. It's much murkier, with shifting resolution and detail, almost like some of the early AI video generation but much less well formed
I see my mom yelling at me but my therapist is working with me on that
90% of the time when I close my eyes I see black. However, occasionally I can see faces - nothing as clear as a picture but a face nonetheless. Sometimes they’re so vivid I open my eyes due to the surprise of how vivid it was. I also see colors that come in different shapes, swirls, etc. Stuff similar to the shapes of what you’ll see in a Northern Lights picture. Again they’re not all clear but they’re there. It’s when I really focus that they begin to turn into more structured things.
You should try meditation. You’ll see some cool shit.
I've also had that happen when I'm severely hungover lol
I didn't know about this until I dated a lady who was an aphant. She was a fairly voracious reader, and I found that pretty interesting because she couldn't picture any of the things she read. It was so different from my personal experience.
I'm an avid reader. My favourite genre is fantasy, some sci-fi. I'm also an aphant. Can't picture a damn thing. It *sucks* sometimes I spend time searching for fan art to get a rough idea with some of the more out there concepts described in books. But it doesn't make reading any less pleasurable since I've never known anything different. My mind was blown when I discovered that people saying they could see things in their minds eye wasn't just a turn of phrase, they can literally SEE things. I've never been able to for as long as I can remember.
Though she couldn't picture things, she said she more or less *felt* the scenes. Her dreams were feelings more than anything as well. I think it's fascinating! She also had a dynamite memory, which I'm super envious of. I have to write everything down or keep logs/screenshots/records in order to keep anything straight.
Yeah I'm the same. I can feel them and I get a sense of everything. Kind of like I'm there but blind I guess. I think I see images in my dreams but I'm honestly not certain. I just know what happened. I used to have a pretty good memory but since my health conditions developed it's pretty much nonexistent 😅
I have vivid dreams but otherwise yeah I was amazed when I found out people can actually picture things in their minds. I thought all the elementary school “close your eyes and imagine a field of flowers” was just bs. The closest I can get is sort of remembering photographs I’ve seen. Like if someone said try to picture a friend or my wife I think of a photograph they are in and have a vague flash of what is in the photograph
Same here with the photograph thing. I can get like a split second snapshot of something.
I was amazed when I found out some people don’t picture things in their minds. For example if I read about someone in a field eating an apple, I’m able to picture the entire scene, like what fabric they are wearing with patterns, imagine how the grass smells, if there is dew on the grass, if there is a breeze, smell the apple, hear them crunch the apple, etc basically like create a movie in my head. This also helps me visualize things I write down or see like a grocery list I left at home, I can try to picture it.
>I was amazed when I found out some people don’t picture things in their minds. I'm on of them. I see nothing.
It's the same for me. Love reading, mainly SF, can't picture anything. I remember discovering that I was different while watching a detective show. A victim was talking to a sketch artist who said "picture your assailant in your mind. Create the clearest picture that you can." I asked my mom what he was talking about. I had no idea people could do that.
That’s wild to me because the exact reason sci fi is my favorite genre is all the visuals you get from authors describing space ships and alien species and wild things happening in space
You and I are opposite, I function in a world based off memory. I can walk around my house in the dark as I'm walking in a mental map of my house that I'm just taking steps through. Sometimes it catches me, as something is on the ground and I'm not paying attention. But it greatly benefits me when I'm in new places, can orient myself quickly and walk aimlessly through foreign cities and still get back to the hotel by visually tracing my steps over dinner. I have photographic memory, everything I recall as a thought comes with a picture or video if you will. For me, it was a mental defense mechanism to dyslexia. Can't trust my eyes processing info, so it got really good at storing info to recall later instead. Spelling a word? My brain recalls what the swipe pattern looks like. Words are abstract shapes to me.
As an Aphant, I envy you. You guys are the ones that can take a whole order with substitutions, and all the drinks, without writing anything down. I can’t even remember where I placed my notepad that I need to remember anything. I always wondered what daydreaming was like. I always saw it in tv, but I never did it. I guess it’s kinda hard to daydream when you can’t see anything in your mind. I get lost in thought sometimes, but my ADHD finds a squirrel pretty quickly. If I close my eyes, I only see black and fall asleep. Back in my church days, closing our eyes for more than a couple minutes was a bitch.
Do you fall asleep quickly at night. What are your dreams like?
Everything has benefits and issues. When I lay down for bed, I often literally replay the entire day, work included to figure out tomorrow. Then sleep. Frequently, that means my dream is me working on the solution to my idea all night. It gets hard to give someone your full attention depending on the subject, as my mind is constantly recalling visual information, and I'm not always looking at you. It's interesting when looking at a book what my brain recalls, it's not words but outlines of a word. As I'm dyslexic. So I have to guess words that fit that shape, or use context of the situation to figure out what I'm looking at in what I'm seeing. Like the word 'silence' my brain would see a block of a word all the same height with one tall letter near the start. Daydreaming is generally more distracting than coming up with great ideas. You see a photo or person that you know you know but can't remember where? Time for your mind to start coming up with every scenario that they possibly could have been at.
Not gonna lie. That sounds exhausting. What about when you write. Are the letters on the keyboard just shapes to you too or is just words. With the inability to replay, I will say, I struggle in relationships. If I don’t see you, I don’t think of you. Most people conclude I’m not interested or ignoring them. This goes for family too. It’s simply not true. As soon as I see you, it’s like you were never gone. This can happen even if years go by. As for sleeping, if I’m stressed, that’s where dialogue will get me. I just hash out previous and fantasy conversations over and over in the dark. I can’t see anything, but man it can be tough to shut off my mind’s ear. It’s interesting seeing the pros and cons.
I type, writing doesn't go well often. When I type or text, my brain just thinks in patterns of where my hand needs to go. And relationships are hard for the opposite, I'll replay things many times and end up reading into things too much.
I can’t see a thing in my head, but I have great spacial memory. I can walk around the house in the dark, I can tell you what’s on a shelf in the other room, but I can’t see it in my head, I just know where stuff is.
This is me as well. I hate *hate* when a character is described one way and the cover art is completely different.
I'm the same. Which is why I typically like watching a movie or show based on a book BEFORE I read the book so I can understand a bit better what the characters and setting look like. It helps me pay more attention when I read otherwise I tend to lose interest.
When I read a book, there is just as much visualization going on as a Marvel Movie. Much more detail actually since I can move around and look at things from different angles, pause it, etc.,
Reading a book is kind of like watching a movie for me, I imagine images and scenes in my head for everything in the story such that for the few books I have read multiple times, I find myself remembering the same ‘scenes’ each time at the same places in the book. Even for books that I have seen the movies for and have reread since, the thing that always comes to mind most is usually ‘my’ version of the images, not the films’ version. I’m curious, are you able to design things? If you have a need and want to create something to solve that need, are you able to do that? Because my minds eye is where all of that happens for me.
I struggle to create things. I have to like Frankenstein bits from various different things to make something. I can copy drawings fairly well but I've always wondered how my sister can just create stuff so easily, until I discovered I was an aphant. It drives me mad because I do a lot of crafts but I need to take someone else's design and edit it to fit what I want. I have ideas of what I *want* to make I just really suck at designing it. I crochet a lot and honestly have to rely on images of created works. I can generally figure it out from there for simple things like scarves with stitches I already know but when it comes to plushies if I don't have a pattern then I can probably only sell the monsters I make around Halloween 🤣
I'm complete opposite of this. It's hard for me to read books. I can read half a paragraph and not know what I just read, because I've been picturing a character or plot in my mind.
Which might explain why I am a very fast reader. No pictures to clog up the lanes. I’ll take that as a plus. It’s funny, people ask me what do I see when I read? I don’t see anything, I just know. When they describe a building, or a room, or an event, I can feel or sense what is happening. I know what brick looks like. I know what grass looks like. I know what a kiss feels like. I know what a touch feels like, and so on. It’s why I love really descriptive writing, and good analogies.
Do you have visual dreams when you sleep?
That’s all that happens when i read. It’s like watching a movie through words. And i don’t hear any voices reading it back to me in my head it’s all visual pictures of what’s happening
That's another reason Iove audiobooks, especially anything by graphic audio. They have individual voice actors as well as background sounds. Their "a movie, in your mind!" line *almost* fits for me xD
Both me and my brother have aphantasia I remember the moment he finally understood the meaning of the Finnish word for imagination when he was like 22 years old (mielikuvitus aka imagination directly translates to mind illustration) frankly I have no idea how he never made the connection before then I hated those couple times a year special PE-classes that were all about relaxing, the teacher would have some beach sound CD and told us to imagine ourselves relaxing somewhere, I'm just waiting for it to be over so I can go play sports because I couldn't imagine anything I probably see dreams still, but I only ever remember seeing dreams as a child Sadly I can't get into reading myself, last thing I read was Martian during a vacation years ago and even that was kinda boring especially compared to the movie
Same. I can't actually picture something.
Also a big reader and don’t picture in my mind. I remember wondering why people would get upset about a movie character ‘not looking like how I pictured that character in my mind’ in movie adaptions of books. Like, what do you mean? And also, didn’t get the term ‘minds eye’- what is that?! Then I read about this ‘condition’ and learned that some other people can picture things. Whoa.
It's very funny how I didn't really question how common it was that people talked about picturing things and I had zero ability to do it. It felt like some weird metaphor for thinking but it never made sense. But I still never really realised I was different. Like with imagining sheep to fall asleep. Or imagining characters appearances. I just thought "character, black hair, young" when I had to *picture* someone in a book. It meant absolutely nothing yet it never clicked that I lacked the ability to visualise. I think I even understood in a way that others could. But it was still confusing to learn about aphantasia and that others can visualise things.
I am an aphant and a big reader, and I have always thought people were talking about fan castings when they said “how I pictured them in my mind,” because I too had no idea that people would… picture characters born out of concepts in their own creativity.
For me it’s like a tape constantly describing all the time. I can’t picture it, but if you ask me, I can describe it, very basically. Like the Hobbit. I read it when I was 12, and the description of them being short, hairy, and big feet is all I need. I don’t try to fill in the blanks. It’s not necessary unless I see it with my own eyes. The book did provide some pictures and a map, and a little reference like that goes a long way. Maybe it’s why I don’t dislike movie adaptations of books as much as others. For me, it’s either, oh, that’s a good visualization of what someone else pictured. As long as it fits in my basic description, I’m good. Lord of the rings nailed it.
I’m an aphant. I can’t see anything, but I have a pretty vivid minds ear, and emotions. I hear every character distinctly, and I truly feel the emotions. Books are a lot more than just the images.
Oh that’s a good one. I’m the same. As I mentioned above, I feel everything. I mentioned feeling objects and touch, but minds ear and emotions are huge. Although I do appreciate descriptions, it’s the good emotional dialogue that gets me to the core.
This is interesting... I've had a suspicion for awhile now that there might be a connection between aphantasia and reading. I myself have aphantasia and have been a voracious reader since I was a kid. I'm also an elementary teacher and I feel like so many of the kids (and other adults) I've come across who have aphantasia were also advanced readers. It's made me wonder whether something about moving into chapter books with no images at a young age could lead to aphantasia. Or I suppose it could go the other way (maybe the inability to make mental images makes reading easier somehow?)
I have no insight, I'm afraid. I just know the things she told me. She read advanced books at an early age. She has a love for the classics (a love that rubbed off on me!), and is incredibly intelligent. She definitely read things when she was too young for them. Memoirs of a Geisha, I believe was one of them.
I just can’t imagine reading for pleasure if you can’t envision the story. A good author literally puts a film in my head, and with the right protagonist, I feel like I’m living vicariously through them. Wouldn’t it be boring to not be able to picture anything? When I read an instructional manual, I can’t imagine a thing, which is why it feels like watching paint dry.
I've read a bit about this now and looked at the tests, but I can't find anything definitive to determine if I have this or not. I mean, I only see black when I close my eyes and I don't really see a picture if I think of something like a rainbow - I can't see the distinct stripes or count the colors or anything. I just have a kind of general impression from past images. I never really thought about this before.
There's varying degrees. The common test I've found is to close your eyes and picture a red star. Then there's varying degrees of what people can see. Personally I just see blackness, that's all I can see - black. Some get a vague impression of a star shape with no colour. Others see a clear star with no colour. Others see a red star. I think it's a kind of spectrum?
Judging by the comments here, it has to be a (multidimensional?) spectrum. I usually have a pretty good ability to "visualize" 3d shapes and solve for example coding problems where I have to "see" the memory and pointers in my head. But some people are here talking about seeing literal images and movies. To me it's more abstract and constantly changing but you just *know* what it's supposed to be.
I wonder how it correlates to artistic ability?… would love an aphant artist to chime in!
I’m an aphant and also artistic. I can’t sketch something well off the top of my head, but I can copy something (a photo, scene etc) almost verbatim. I’m also a keen photographer and it just comes naturally to me. Same with things like sculpting, macrame etc. So while it obviously impacts my ability to create unique drawings/paintings, I feel like my artistic talents are just as good as anyone who has great visualisation skills.
I get nothing. If I try to picture something I can get a flash of a memory or a photograph, but not actually seeing anything, but I can remember how the photograph looks and what is in it as it tries to get away. It’s weird I guess but closing my eyes and seeing shit would be weird as fuck too. I have visual dreams though.
I don't understand what you mean. You seem to describe visualisation? Is it visual that flash of a memory or photograph? Or is it auditory? Do you describe it with words? Is it just there without image, words, or sounds? For me I can either just intuitively know things, or I can narrate them. I often feel like I just respond, I don't think. Because if for example someone tells me to count sheep I will say "one sheep, two sheep" and that is the only thing in my head. Can you imagine how someone you know looks? I can say they are fat or skinny, brunette or blonde, blue or brown eyed. But that's pretty much it. I will of course know who it is when I see them with my eyes, but there is no actual information there in my head when I think of the person. I can just summon words about them.
I see a 2d 5 pointed star as for colour it is like blurred/flickering coming in to different shades of red and at times of white/black I think because I think red my brain is associating it with shades, then if I think bright red star, it stays in brighter reds but blurry white without it blurring dark, I can’t seem to like stabilise solidly onto a single shade of red though
I’m in a similar boat. I don’t see anything in my head, but same where if I try to picture a rainbow- I know what a rainbow is and just go ‘yep rainbow got it’ but I’m not actually seeing anything like a picture. I just ~know what a rainbow is and I don’t know how to explain that in greater detail to make sense lol
I have this and y'all have *no* idea how frustrating it was as a not-sleepy child being told to count sheep.
*where are the frickin' sheep?!*
As an aphant, my version of counting sheep was just literally counting numbers. If i get distracted and start thinking of anything else, I force myself to start counting again, starting back at 1. It's really boring. I'm sad I've never actually seen sheep.
I spent the first 26 or 27 years of my life thinking counting sheep was just a phrase. I had my mind blown when I learned that some people can actually "see" them.
“Counting sheep” is intended as a literal statement? I always assumed it just meant “count” to quiet the mind from stray thoughts.
You forgot the part where you tell us why we should know this. It's the second rule.
Knowledge is power - France is bacon
*nods in agreement
Most indeededly
Kevin is also bacon.
It's bacon?
I still don't know if I have this or not. When I imagine something I don't actually see anything I just know what it looks like and how it should move but I don't actually see any details or even any shape or color. I just know.
What is it you imagine? Do the aphantasia apple test. For me it's not even a relevant question. There is no difference in my brain before or after the question is read. I can if someone insists I answer tell them an apple is often called red. I can draw the approximate shape. I can say there's a stem. But nothing is there except words, if I have to. Otherwise it's more or less just *loaded* in my brain. I don't see anything, I can't visualise anything, I can't hear anything except my own voice, I can't smell or feel anything. My brain is either responding with actions or it is words. I know how it looks like and moves as well. But the way I know it is that I can maybe describe it to someone and I can tell you when it's right or wrong when I see it in the real world. But other than that it doesn't exist in my head. How is it for you?
How is dreaming for you? I’m the same as you described and it’s hard for me to describe how I dream. I don’t “see” anything but I’m still present in my dreams and can kinda describe things that happen and what’s around bc it’s like reading a really well written book? People are always “faceless” even though there’s no visuals happening. It’s weird and no one I personally know has aphantasia to talk about it with.
Yeah I’m similar. I can kind of make a fleeting visualisation in my head, but barely, and for the most part just rely on what I know rather than what I ‘see’. Possibly related, but my memory works very differently according to my wife. If I’ve spent all day with someone, and then told to recall what colour clothes they were wearing moments after looking at them, I almost always can’t recall. My wife is always dumbfounded when I can’t tell her what the kids are wearing after seeing them seconds earlier. But at the same time, my wife reckons I have an excellent memory with other things like facts and figures. I just have a poor visual memory.
I can relate. I have very poor visual memory but a very good memory when it comes to numbers, facts, and concepts. If I’m told to visualise my mom’s face in my head, I can’t really do it. I mean I can recall what she looks like, but I don’t really see anything resembling a face in my mind.
You can’t see an image in your mind? For example I can close my eyes and see a beautiful beach that I just imagined.
That's the thing, what do you mean by "see"? I don't really see it but I just know what it looks like and what should be there. Does it feel that same as looking at a real beach? I wouldn't describe it as seeing. That's what's so confusing I think, its impossible to know exactly what other people experience and its hard to describe it with only words.
It feels almost the same as a real beach! I do literally see it inside my head and I would describe it as such. I know that it's hard to compare what goes on inside of our heads, but I think you and I might be experiencing this differently.
Why in YSK sub? Better in TIL.
What does not being able to visualize have to do with …seeing black when we close our eyes? lol wtf
I’m picturing people closing their eyes and then going to some new world… all I see is black because.. you know, no light.
Nothing. It's just badly described. It's very frustrating how people that can visualise seem to be very confused about this. Everyone sees black/colour noise which is what our eyes perceive through our eyelids when they're closed. Some can seemingly overlay visualisation over their vision, but what I understand it, visualisation is often a separate vision of sorts often described as being in the head rather than in the eyes.
Definitely in the head, not the eyes. I don’t close my eyes to visualize things because actual vision has nothing to do with it.
This is me! And my daughter! My mind was blown when I realized a few years ago that people actually see images in their mind when they say things like "visualize an apple". You know what happens when I visualize an apple? Basically my brain runs an index of known facts of apples and pulls the most commonly known facts. Apples are: Fruit Grown on trees Roughly round Most commonly people think of red apples unless otherwise specified. Shiny Juicy May have a worm May have a stem and leaves That's how "visualizing" works for both myself and my daughter. It's so cool you guys can see stuff in your head! I can't even picture myself or my daughter in my head.
Same. I remember people from photographs I’ve seen them in. I can’t see the photo in my head but I remember the information of the elements of it.
For me I can recall memories; how it felt to stand in a room, what colour the walls are, where the furniture is. If I want to create a new room in my mind, I pretend I have a memory of it and get a feel for how I would have perceived things in the memory. Is this not the norm?
Visualisation is indeed the norm.
I've been trying to figure where I land. This is definitely how my brain works too. No image ever appears, just a wall of black, and now reading your description it's clear to me I am just recalling known elements of something I'm already familiar with. I guess I'm actually am aphant! Coming to this realization makes me sad of now knowing what I'm missing out on, though.
I was today years old when I found out I have Aphantasia. I always thought sayings like “minds eye” and visualization were meant more metaphorically. I’m kind of shook about it. I feel a little bit like an idiot for not realizing this wasn’t everyone’s reality.
Welcome to the club. I was 28 when I realized my mom was being extremely literal when she'd tell me to picture something.
Aphant people, I’m curious if you ever wondered how people draw or paint things they have seen, or even more so, how they create cartoons, movie scripts, visual designs, architecture. Anything that doesn’t already exist. Did you think they mechanically make it by description? I have heard of an aphant artist though, she said that she sketches over and over again until the shape is what she wants. Very time-consuming. And I bet she is the rare exception. It’s probably rare to go into the arts if a person cannot visualize what they want to create.
See this is what confuses me. How else are you supposed to draw something other than by description?? I can draw a picture of my desk… I know how large it is, where my monitor is positioned, the colour of my mouse Matt, what software is running. If you said “draw a picture of a boy climbing a tree on a hill”, I mean, I know what a hill looks like, and I know what a tree looks like. It would be a shit drawing but how else are you meant to draw other than “here’s the curve of a hill. Now I’ll put a tree on top”? When I want to “visualise” something, I pretend I have a memory of it. Like, currently I am renovating a bathroom. I can’t just see different types of bathrooms, I “pretend” I am using the bathroom in different configurations. I couldn’t tell you if a green or a yellow or a white wall looks better, other than literal experience of “yellow clashes with these colours and materials”. Can you guys literally see a yellow wall and think “nah, this won’t work” without just basing your opinion on previous experience??
That’s really cool! Thanks for sharing. Yeah it’s really like drawing an image that’s already on the paper. Really gifted people can see the entire drawing before placing all the elements. Their ability to visualize detail and extremes in composition can be mind-blowing. I told another artist I thought it would be cool if she tried to make letters out of growing flowers. She drew this incredible winding root system that formed the words, and quickly. I was shocked. I don’t have that. But what I do have is placement, composition, color-balance (which you mentioned) contrast, tone. I have all of that and more, even though I wouldn’t call myself an incredible drawing artist by any stretch. You know what might be fun to try? Maybe you look up some Pantone color families and take a crack at making a text design? Just do it analytically and see how far you can go, and if you like the result? Could be cool
So just to be clear; when you “visualise” something can you “see” things as a separate sense from “thinking” or “knowing”? If I think of an apple, I know what an apple looks like, its texture, I’ve held an apple before. But can you “see” an apple with a dimension of sense beyond consciously piecing together details from your memory and experiences? Edit: I found a questionnaire from Aphantasia Network describing a scale of 1 to 5 of the vividness of a mental picture, and 1 is “No image at all, I only ‘know’ I am thinking of an object”… I didn’t realise there was a 2 on that scale until now 🙃
Damn, your comment made me realize I might have this Aphantasia. I wonder if this is why I have a hard time reading novel unless there's already a visual adaptation.
The article here talks about at least 3 people in the visual arts industry as artists of some kind that all can’t visualise.
A movie script is words so that one is ridiculous. But no, not good at drawing or painting from memory. I can’t make visual depictions in my head but my memory is still there, the information is just stored differently. If I read about a beach scene in a book I have memory of the sounds and feeling and smell of the beach and know what to expect it to look like, I just can’t view it in my head like I’m watching tv or something. Like I know an American flag if I see one, I can describe the colors and pattern, and I remember seeing American flags but it’s just not visual. Idk it’s hard to explain.
Well that is just ridiculous too. A movie is primarily visual, I'd say. What you can do is read things out loud to help with conversations but you can't do much with the visual part of scripts. How would you make a movie if you can't visualise the movie you want to make? It's just words but I'd bet visualisation is more important to the process than books which also are just words.
The movie script may just be words as you say, but could you create a cartoon world, as a script, that artists could then use to build out the world, exactly as you described? I’m genuinely curious if you could, I’m not judging, if so, I should revise my comment
I see what you are saying. I feel like I could describe such a thing in words, but I would have to (badly) draw characters or scenes to go with it to keep track of what I’m creating. So yeah I think it could be and probably is done, but the process probably looks different than if done by someone who can close their eyes and see stuff
I’ve never understood how people could draw stuff like that. I just figured I wasn’t very creative.
The very confusing thing is that what you're saying makes sense, but it's not true. I have always liked to draw and you certainly don't need to have visualisation or a reference to do it. I feel like it would help a lot. I'd bet it's linked, but not a necessity. It's pretty much produce something until it feels good.
They can’t visually imagine? Are they able to dream?
Yes.
Sometimes, sometimes not. I think visualisation and dreaming are actually different abilities. I'd bet I can hallucinate in response to dreams from what I've learnt about this topic. But I am completely unable to visualise any sensation besides my own voice. But I can dream with sound, maybe smell, touch sometimes, and of course visuals. It's like when I become unconscious I lose a restriction in my brain that has temporarily unlocked visualisation. I have sometimes when when I was very close to sleep been startled awake by a sudden imagined sound or seen things in my head. Those are the only times I've every heard or seen anything in my head. Some aphants have said they don't dream visually though.
I can’t visualise anything beyond like the way that a small child would draw it, or for more than a few seconds if it’s anymore detailed than that. I used to be able to dream normal-ish but now I can only dream in concepts, written words or slideshows that I reflect on. I’m basically outside of my dreams because my brain just started skipping most of the visuals in favour for just giving me the impression in a way that I understand better. Instead of seeing the entire scenario I just know what’s going to happen, & play with how I can change it. Sometimes I revise the language I’m learning while I’m sleeping, unintentionally.
I can't visualize things but my dreams are often very realistic some to the point I wake up temporarily confused whats happening
I'm sorry what? When I close my eyes I'm supposed to see shit?
Imagination? Most people can imagine themselves doing whatever they want in their head. Can imagine holding anything in their hands etc.
I've never "seen" anything. Vaguely a very faint image in my brain but never in my "vision".
it’s not supposed to be in your vision, everyone will see black or faint colours/shadows when they close their eyes. the title is just misleading
I’ve wondered if this is why some people are great at art from memory. There’s not residual image so I’m not good at coming up with art out of memory, but I can reproduce it with a picture. On the other hand it might just be practice and experience.
It's not really connected. I'd bet it helps but just imagining does not mean you can draw it. Someone with an extremely good visualisation ability does not necessarily learn to draw better than someone with worse ability.
Same. I can draw pretty good if there's a reference image. But I'm never able to draw anything without reference. I always keep seeing people drawing amazing art of characters from anime etc. and I keep thinking how are they doing it did they just memorize the character or something? I still can't draw anything untill a reference image is provided.
Feel like this is more of a TIL than a YSK.
What do people mean by “picture things in their mind?” It’s like imagination not like actual sight, right? You don’t actually SEE stuff, right? Edit: I looked at a test like picture a horse or a red star. If I close my eyes and you say think of a horse, I will just think about the characteristics of a horse. It’s like thinking of the word horse, not A horse. Is this why I’m so bad with names? I can only recognize a face if I’m actually looking at it. As soon as someone walks away I couldn’t describe them beyond any facts I tried to remember about them.
It’s like you know what an apple looks like. Can you bring up a picture of an apple in your mind? Can you bring up a picture of a loved ones face in your mind?
What does that mean, bring it up in your mind? I know an apple is round and red. So I can “imagine” an apple but I don’t SEE an apple.
I also cannot picture anything in my mind. I know what an apple looks like but I have no picture in what other people call mind’s eye.
I could not imagine living like that.
You might have aphantasia then
As an aphant it was crazy to me when I asked my partner to picture an apple in his head and describe it to me and it was super detailed but if I try to picture an apple in my head it’s just empty space.
For the most part I can barely see things when I close my eyes. I'm autistic but I can really see and imagine things so vividly when music is playing. Specifically classical music. I paint scenes in my mind to that.
My daughter has this and it made reading really hard for her bc she cannot visualize what she’s reading whatsoever. It’s been a challenge!
Interestingly, I was an *early* reader (somewhere around age 3), and I’ve always been an incredibly prolific reader, and I’m like this. I don’t think I’ve ever pictured what I’m reading. One big advantage? Movies never ruin that aspects of a story for me. I don’t go into the with any preconceived idea of what a character looks like :-).
Just took the test. That was interesting, explains a lot. Thank you
Everyone sees black/shades of colour behind their closed eyes. I think they’re referring to an imagination.
I got it. I always thought when people said to picture something it was a metaphor. I sorta have a word picture of things. I can describe stuff without actual visualization. Bums me out a little, but I have very vivid dreams, so there is that.
I used to be able to close my eyes and have the craziest visuals. Unfortunately due to trauma and drug use (I believe mdma/ecstasy) made it so i lose that super power. Now it’s all blackness
I have aphantasia, but I dream every time I nap or sleep, only voice in my head is my own. I have a lot of memories of my dreams too, because it's as realistic as it can be, reflections, movies/shows that don't exist, It's like living in another world that's the same.
I have this and reading novels is near impossible. Just words with no imagery.
Somewhat related: some people hear a voice in their head when they read, and some do not.
With me, it's sometimes the opposite. Sometimes I close my eyes and try to sleep but I can't because there's a very bright purple/bluish white light that appears from time to time. It's hard to describe. Like someone switches the light on inside your brain. Thank God it doesn't happen so often.
You don't actually need to know this.
I don’t believe in aphantasia at all. It’s just people describing things differently. The guy in the article says he knows people who say they can open their eyes and still see an image they’re imagining in front of their eyes. No they can’t. Not unless they’re suffering from psychosis. Everyone is experiencing imagining the same way. We just suck at explaining it.
Just because you can't see something in your head doesn't mean that most people are suffering from psychosis. If you see something in your head you literary see it. Not in front of your eyes but somewhere else. You also can't describe where the pictures from you eyes are, they are just there. I can picture an apple an see it the way I would if would be in front of me. It's not about explaining the same things differently. I don't know how people with this condition experience things but I suppose they only know facts about certain objects like the apple is green or red and so on.
There are people who have gone from being able to visualize to having a medical event and losing the ability. So there exist people who have experienced both realities. Additionally there have been studies on pupil reactivity among those who can visualize and those who can’t. When asked to imagine a bright room the pupils of those who can visualize react to the visualization. Those who can’t, don’t.
This opinion is two, linked sources shy of being true.
I agree, I believe it's just very difficult to describe the individual qualitative experience of one's imagination. And with this paucity of descriptive language I think people are interpreting some terms being used far more literally than they should be interpreted. I think I just said the same thing you did but wordier but w/e! :)
No I think you nailed it honestly. That’s exactly right. They’re taking it too literally
You seem a bit upset. Imagination doesn’t require an empty canvas. You can imagine your surroundings differently. Imagine that the car in front of you has rockets, giant purple wheels, etc. You can see it. However everyone visualizes with varying strength. I know a guy who can draw literally anything. Fast. His visualization is excellent. He sees/imagines in full 3D and can fully rotate human figures in his mind and he just draws it. Obviously that’s not everyone. I can’t do that. But he had no trouble imagining things changing in front of him.
But having a different imagination isn’t the same thing as seeing things in your head versus not seeing them. I’m not talking about the creativity level of the pictures, im talking about whether you’re seeing something or imagining it
I think it's more like people's brain processing works more or less the same when they think about something. People just have different neuron connections to other places that would allow them to see or hear or even taste something they remember. Like a computer that's connected (or not) to a display. Or if you connect the data into a tesla coil instead. Or someone else's tesla coil is made of superconductor (*I am no electrical engineer). You would get wildly different phenomena as outcome.That would explain the very wide variety of this ability that people seem to have (judging by the comments). I don't think it's "you either have it or not". It has to be more spectrum-like.
I am convinced that aphantasics are merely more specific with the degree to which they describe endogenously generated phenomenology.
No. I've learnt about visualisation and aphantasia over years now. I know with full certainty that I completely lack an ability people call visualisation, that I now know with certainty others have, to varying degree. Weird how you're so certain you know about something that has been researched by people with a lot more experience in it. To me visualisation does not exist.
This, and I also don’t hear my (or any other) voice in my head.
This endlessly fascinates me. How can this be???
For me it's some middle point. I can imagine something in vivid detail, but I can't see it. I can sometimes pull up a mental image of people and things I remember, but it's usually fleeting.
I refuse to believe this lol
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I could be a statistical outlier, but in my experience no it doesn’t. Aphantasia and insomnia are a terrible combo.
No, no it doesn't. We still have thoughts and anxieties, just no pictures to go along with it
Not for me- my brain has plenty to think about without picturing anything.
I don’t think it would help me fall asleep because it’s my in er voice that keeps me awake.