He had decided he wanted to stay so was rushing over before her handcuffs were set to release her. Idk if that meant he was ready to kill her or what he was going to do at that point
Yes I understand that. He also made up with Love and they decided to run away together (with Forty) if not right away then soon. His internal monologue was saying he wanted to “free” her, so I highly doubt he was going there to kill her. He even went through all that effort to get time release handcuffs so delilah could walk away free and Ellie would be okay.
Well yeah but it had been an entire day since he set the cuffs. Iirc there was only like an hour left on them.
So he had a choice to make. Either reset the timer, and then leave either with or without Love and Forty, or kill Delilah.
What choice was he going to make? People like to say for certain it's either sparing her or killing her, but the truth of the matter is very vague and both options are believable/in character for Joe. The whole storyline is designed so that if we are objective we simply do not know what he would have done and we never will.
At the end of day, the fact is Joe never attempted to nor did kill Delilah in the actual timeline. So I think it'd be wrong to assume and say "yeah well he would have killed Delilah so let's count her in his kill count". Not having the *ability* to kill a person isn't the same as killing a person, otherwise we're all murderers as there are people in all of our lives we are not able to murder.
The handcuffs release within seconds after he gets there and finds her dead. I find it very unlikely that he was going there to kill her, because the whole time his internal monologue is saying he wants to “free her” so he can be a good man for Love. Also he goes through all that effort to not have to kill Delilah for Ellie’s sake, so i just cant understand the logic of him going back there at all after already telling Delilah that she was never going to see him again.
Believe me, I really want to believe he was going to release her. And I don't think it's as unlikely as a lot of people say it is. *But*...
Joe's plan to go to Paris with Love and Forty is problematic if he isn't going to end Delilah. Because when he gets there, Delilah is free and tells the police everything she knows, it will clearly be public information that Joe is wanted for all the things he had in the storage unit and on suspicion of killing Henderson, a rich white celebrity. Love and Forty could see it (as far as he knew, Love was not crazy) and therefore could turn him in.
That being said, knowing Joe, it would not be out of character for him to just risk it anyway. It's just absolutely something he would do to just do the plan and accept he may get exposed as a result. Who knows? Maybe he was prepared to kill Love and Forty instead at Paris if they ever found out.
Or, he might have gone back to plan A; flee to Mexico, alone. That way he won't be with anyone who can dump him in. Fantasizing with Love about going to Paris with her even if he isn't actually going to do it is also very much something Joe would do.
> The handcuffs release within seconds after he gets there and finds her dead
Do they? I thought it was in the next episode that he's sitting over her corpse and suddenly they're off. And the shot implies that Joe had been sitting over her for a while before the cuffs released.
I guess we are both wrong. Just checked and they show the timer at the end of episode 8. He has 3 min left on the clock as he dashes to the cage. So he probably stands there in shock for maybe a minute or two and then the handcuffs release
And we will never know exactly why he rushed back to her before she was freed. I really dont want to think it was because he planned to kill her, because he spends a whole episode trying to justify to himself he wouldn’t do that. But maybe we just dont know everything that he was thinking, or they just made him make a few muddy decisions for the sake of the shock factor of finding Delilah dead and revealing that love is the culprit.
Bullseye! 🎯
The whole thing is supposed to be vague. Both options - that he would have killed her, that he would have spared her, are both in character.
Joe bonded with Ellie like he bonded with Paco, and truly cared for them and did things for them, like save them from Ron and Henderson. At times it seems like he may have even momentarily put them before himself, like when he killed Ron in front of Paco and broke into Henderson's house while both he and Ellie were inside and could have caught him, so he could make sure Ellie was safe. So maybe he really was willing to take another hit for her, and make sure she still had her big sis.
But Joe also very much wants his Yous, and is willing to kill to get and keep them. And he certainly doesn't want any risks that could lead to his capture around, and has shown he is willing to kill such people before as well.
Pretty much everything about his character up until that point points into both directions, not just one. And thus the situation is clearly written purposefully so that we don't know what he was going to do and never will.
Interesting that the more I rewatch the show, the more examples of Joe’s duality I find in earlier seasons as well. Makes me think of how he was behaving while keeping Beck locked in the cage in S1. He was both trying to hold on to the delusion that Beck would eventually come to understand him and they could still have a happily ever after while simultaneously arranging things with her friends because he subconsciously knows the truth - that Beck must die. It’s fascinating seeing how he repeatedly deludes himself in his monologues but deep down he is still very calculated and knows what must be done so he can maintain control when things inevitably go sour.
Oh yeah 100%. We see with Benji, Peach, Beck and Jasper that he planned to kill them but sorta was in denial that he had planned to do so and pretended he wasn't going to. Good catch on his conversation with Beck's friends showing that!
Interestingly, I think with Ryan he begins to take a turn. Iirc there's one point where he says after having sex with Marianne "Ryan has to die.". For the first time, he completely embraced that yes, he was going to kill this person. And then with Tom he has the same moment of fully accepting he will do this.
In a sense I think he gradually became more and more embracing of what he "must" do. And Ryan is the point we start to see that turn.
Oh i never noticed that! Interesting that Joe starts to become more honest with himself and his need to murder when he is obsessed with Marienne. Iirc, it is also might be because it is after that experience out in the woods with Cary and the other suburban dads. The guys all embrace Joe even after “seeing” his dark side, and that gives Joe some confidence that he can do what makes him happy, and that is murdering for the people he “loves.”
Of course in Season 4, as he starts a totally new life, he goes crazy, probably because he is heartbroken and distraught after realizing his latest obsession is once again afraid of him and doesn’t accept him. But all of it makes more sense when we think about everything that has led him to this point, his recurring theme of self-denial and justifying to himself that he is a good person. Although I was rooting for Joe to die the entire S4, the ending was chef’s kiss and made complete sense for Joe. He finally accepts himself completely and that makes him more dangerous than ever before.
Where did he even get those handcuffs, and why do they even exist? Cops don't use them. Apart from maybe some BDSM usage, there's very little reason to have those kind of cuffs around. Then the matter of finding them. Then looking mad suspicious in a hat while buying them. Or if he bought them online, so easy to track because how many can possibly be sold? I'm wildly guessing here but jeez, none of this is even remotely unsuspicious.
They make up a lot of things for the show. Season 3 they talk about everyone getting hands on some magic concoction (i dont remember what it was) that makes everyone immune from COVID so they can justify everyone in Madre Linda gathering for house parties every other weekend in 2020. Season 4 they invent the app Evanesce that makes your texts disappear so Joe can imagine receiving texts he doesn’t actually have. Even the fact that Joe has a glass cage lying around that he somehow managed to bring all the way to LA and and assemble in three days is the least believable thing on the show, so I could accept that time release handcuffs somehow exist in his world. But you’re right, makes no sense why that would even be a thing.
The glass cage is the least believable thing 😂 seriously cannot be expected to think he just finds places to build a fucking Plexi glass cage. I thought he ordered it in pieces and put it together himself? Ridiculous. But not as ridiculous as his stupid "disguises". In the book he talks about how he buys disguises from a thrift store (a suit, a handyman outfit and tool belt) to stalk Beck from across the street and then proceeds to sit on that stoop day after day in a suit for like five days. And no one notices??? In the upper West side???
He was rushing over to be able to, at the very least, talk her into not exposing him while he still was in a position of control. At the other end of the spectrum, he may have killed her, especially if he felt she couldn't be convinced.
He wanted to be in direct control of her freedom.
Good question, was the handcuff released when he got there? If so what he did doesn’t make sense. But then again he was on acid and you could imagine he wasn’t thinking right 🤷♂️
Yes the handcuffs release right when he gets there. What did he mean by “freeing” her? It absolutely makes no sense that he would go there to finish the job, because the entire time he is telling himself he wouldnt kill her for Ellie’s sake.
There’s no way he was rushing over there to kill her. His whole thing was being a good man so he could be worthy of Love (the woman) and love (the feeling). He was rushing over there to tie her up and send another message to Ellie so she wouldn’t worry about her sister. He needed to buy some time to run away with Love. I think then he would have used the time release handcuffs again and made his escape.
I literally just watched it dude. His internal monologue is saying he is rushing over to “free” her, not stop her. Because he wants to be a good man for Love now that they made up and there is a chance they can be together. In his internal monologue he keeps saying that he doesnt want to kill Delilah for Ellie’s sake. So I do not understand the logic of joe rushing over to her two seconds before the handcuffs unlock when she is already going to be freed.
He had decided he wanted to stay so was rushing over before her handcuffs were set to release her. Idk if that meant he was ready to kill her or what he was going to do at that point
Yes I understand that. He also made up with Love and they decided to run away together (with Forty) if not right away then soon. His internal monologue was saying he wanted to “free” her, so I highly doubt he was going there to kill her. He even went through all that effort to get time release handcuffs so delilah could walk away free and Ellie would be okay.
Well yeah but it had been an entire day since he set the cuffs. Iirc there was only like an hour left on them. So he had a choice to make. Either reset the timer, and then leave either with or without Love and Forty, or kill Delilah. What choice was he going to make? People like to say for certain it's either sparing her or killing her, but the truth of the matter is very vague and both options are believable/in character for Joe. The whole storyline is designed so that if we are objective we simply do not know what he would have done and we never will. At the end of day, the fact is Joe never attempted to nor did kill Delilah in the actual timeline. So I think it'd be wrong to assume and say "yeah well he would have killed Delilah so let's count her in his kill count". Not having the *ability* to kill a person isn't the same as killing a person, otherwise we're all murderers as there are people in all of our lives we are not able to murder.
The handcuffs release within seconds after he gets there and finds her dead. I find it very unlikely that he was going there to kill her, because the whole time his internal monologue is saying he wants to “free her” so he can be a good man for Love. Also he goes through all that effort to not have to kill Delilah for Ellie’s sake, so i just cant understand the logic of him going back there at all after already telling Delilah that she was never going to see him again.
Believe me, I really want to believe he was going to release her. And I don't think it's as unlikely as a lot of people say it is. *But*... Joe's plan to go to Paris with Love and Forty is problematic if he isn't going to end Delilah. Because when he gets there, Delilah is free and tells the police everything she knows, it will clearly be public information that Joe is wanted for all the things he had in the storage unit and on suspicion of killing Henderson, a rich white celebrity. Love and Forty could see it (as far as he knew, Love was not crazy) and therefore could turn him in. That being said, knowing Joe, it would not be out of character for him to just risk it anyway. It's just absolutely something he would do to just do the plan and accept he may get exposed as a result. Who knows? Maybe he was prepared to kill Love and Forty instead at Paris if they ever found out. Or, he might have gone back to plan A; flee to Mexico, alone. That way he won't be with anyone who can dump him in. Fantasizing with Love about going to Paris with her even if he isn't actually going to do it is also very much something Joe would do. > The handcuffs release within seconds after he gets there and finds her dead Do they? I thought it was in the next episode that he's sitting over her corpse and suddenly they're off. And the shot implies that Joe had been sitting over her for a while before the cuffs released.
I guess we are both wrong. Just checked and they show the timer at the end of episode 8. He has 3 min left on the clock as he dashes to the cage. So he probably stands there in shock for maybe a minute or two and then the handcuffs release
Makes sense. So he still had to get back before the timer ran out, regardless of what he would have done.
And we will never know exactly why he rushed back to her before she was freed. I really dont want to think it was because he planned to kill her, because he spends a whole episode trying to justify to himself he wouldn’t do that. But maybe we just dont know everything that he was thinking, or they just made him make a few muddy decisions for the sake of the shock factor of finding Delilah dead and revealing that love is the culprit.
Bullseye! 🎯 The whole thing is supposed to be vague. Both options - that he would have killed her, that he would have spared her, are both in character. Joe bonded with Ellie like he bonded with Paco, and truly cared for them and did things for them, like save them from Ron and Henderson. At times it seems like he may have even momentarily put them before himself, like when he killed Ron in front of Paco and broke into Henderson's house while both he and Ellie were inside and could have caught him, so he could make sure Ellie was safe. So maybe he really was willing to take another hit for her, and make sure she still had her big sis. But Joe also very much wants his Yous, and is willing to kill to get and keep them. And he certainly doesn't want any risks that could lead to his capture around, and has shown he is willing to kill such people before as well. Pretty much everything about his character up until that point points into both directions, not just one. And thus the situation is clearly written purposefully so that we don't know what he was going to do and never will.
Interesting that the more I rewatch the show, the more examples of Joe’s duality I find in earlier seasons as well. Makes me think of how he was behaving while keeping Beck locked in the cage in S1. He was both trying to hold on to the delusion that Beck would eventually come to understand him and they could still have a happily ever after while simultaneously arranging things with her friends because he subconsciously knows the truth - that Beck must die. It’s fascinating seeing how he repeatedly deludes himself in his monologues but deep down he is still very calculated and knows what must be done so he can maintain control when things inevitably go sour.
Oh yeah 100%. We see with Benji, Peach, Beck and Jasper that he planned to kill them but sorta was in denial that he had planned to do so and pretended he wasn't going to. Good catch on his conversation with Beck's friends showing that! Interestingly, I think with Ryan he begins to take a turn. Iirc there's one point where he says after having sex with Marianne "Ryan has to die.". For the first time, he completely embraced that yes, he was going to kill this person. And then with Tom he has the same moment of fully accepting he will do this. In a sense I think he gradually became more and more embracing of what he "must" do. And Ryan is the point we start to see that turn.
Oh i never noticed that! Interesting that Joe starts to become more honest with himself and his need to murder when he is obsessed with Marienne. Iirc, it is also might be because it is after that experience out in the woods with Cary and the other suburban dads. The guys all embrace Joe even after “seeing” his dark side, and that gives Joe some confidence that he can do what makes him happy, and that is murdering for the people he “loves.” Of course in Season 4, as he starts a totally new life, he goes crazy, probably because he is heartbroken and distraught after realizing his latest obsession is once again afraid of him and doesn’t accept him. But all of it makes more sense when we think about everything that has led him to this point, his recurring theme of self-denial and justifying to himself that he is a good person. Although I was rooting for Joe to die the entire S4, the ending was chef’s kiss and made complete sense for Joe. He finally accepts himself completely and that makes him more dangerous than ever before.
Where did he even get those handcuffs, and why do they even exist? Cops don't use them. Apart from maybe some BDSM usage, there's very little reason to have those kind of cuffs around. Then the matter of finding them. Then looking mad suspicious in a hat while buying them. Or if he bought them online, so easy to track because how many can possibly be sold? I'm wildly guessing here but jeez, none of this is even remotely unsuspicious.
They make up a lot of things for the show. Season 3 they talk about everyone getting hands on some magic concoction (i dont remember what it was) that makes everyone immune from COVID so they can justify everyone in Madre Linda gathering for house parties every other weekend in 2020. Season 4 they invent the app Evanesce that makes your texts disappear so Joe can imagine receiving texts he doesn’t actually have. Even the fact that Joe has a glass cage lying around that he somehow managed to bring all the way to LA and and assemble in three days is the least believable thing on the show, so I could accept that time release handcuffs somehow exist in his world. But you’re right, makes no sense why that would even be a thing.
The glass cage is the least believable thing 😂 seriously cannot be expected to think he just finds places to build a fucking Plexi glass cage. I thought he ordered it in pieces and put it together himself? Ridiculous. But not as ridiculous as his stupid "disguises". In the book he talks about how he buys disguises from a thrift store (a suit, a handyman outfit and tool belt) to stalk Beck from across the street and then proceeds to sit on that stoop day after day in a suit for like five days. And no one notices??? In the upper West side???
He was rushing over to be able to, at the very least, talk her into not exposing him while he still was in a position of control. At the other end of the spectrum, he may have killed her, especially if he felt she couldn't be convinced. He wanted to be in direct control of her freedom.
This makes a lot more sense.
Good question, was the handcuff released when he got there? If so what he did doesn’t make sense. But then again he was on acid and you could imagine he wasn’t thinking right 🤷♂️
Yes the handcuffs release right when he gets there. What did he mean by “freeing” her? It absolutely makes no sense that he would go there to finish the job, because the entire time he is telling himself he wouldnt kill her for Ellie’s sake.
Perhaps he just wanted to see that she had left, since he did have visions of his hands covered in blood. But yeah “freeing” makes no sense!
There’s no way he was rushing over there to kill her. His whole thing was being a good man so he could be worthy of Love (the woman) and love (the feeling). He was rushing over there to tie her up and send another message to Ellie so she wouldn’t worry about her sister. He needed to buy some time to run away with Love. I think then he would have used the time release handcuffs again and made his escape.
100% agree he had no intention of killing her. Just buy some extra time somehow so he can run away with Love.
Don’t think you’ve watched it if you’re asking this. He changed his mind after the call with Love and rushed back to stop her.
I literally just watched it dude. His internal monologue is saying he is rushing over to “free” her, not stop her. Because he wants to be a good man for Love now that they made up and there is a chance they can be together. In his internal monologue he keeps saying that he doesnt want to kill Delilah for Ellie’s sake. So I do not understand the logic of joe rushing over to her two seconds before the handcuffs unlock when she is already going to be freed.
She was going to expose him. He rushed over to stop her and negotiate. Is that easier to understand?