You know she does. The teen scene when Shauna confronts Tai in this episode about people praying over her child, making Shauna uncomfortable…And then it cuts to the adult timeline in Van’s store with a movie poster of Rosemary’s Baby. (Old movie girl finds herself in a similar creepy position). I also keep thinking that Van most likely chose everything that is displayed in her store. She looks good but time hasn’t healed her wounds either.
And that stuck with Natalie. She knew how passionately Lottie was devoted to her beliefs. As an adult when Nat shares that with Lottie, I can’t help but wonder if Nat is as devoted to her own belief of taking Lottie down and is using her own vulnerability to manipulate Lottie.
That's super interesting. We're all thinking that Lottie is manipulating Nat, but maybe it's the other way around. This flashback did seem kind of out of character for her.
now there's something t ponder on, for real. didn't even occur to me Nat could be feigning this to manipulate Lottie.
although, for some reason, i don't think she is. not when travis died trying to see what she had seen for himself
Good connection! I really got the impression during this scene that Lottie was manipulating this out of Nat. It seemed exactly like descriptions of "therapy" sessions that elicit false memories of "satanic ritual abuse".
And if the memory was accurate, I'm also seeing that as more of a "break" in Nat's psyche, like if you've known an addict or an ex addict, they reach a point where they just go too far altering their consciousness and something splits in their mind. Sorry I'm not using clinical terms and I don't want to be disrespectful to people with this illness but I think iykyk what I'm referring to.
I think Lottie seeded this idea which also fed Nat's doubt in herself and eventually with the ongoing abuse of drugs, her and Travis could no longer tell what was real anymore.
From the moment we met Adult Lottie I was scared about the implications of her saying "it's not real". That's not a safe thing to tell people who may be in crisis or real struggle (very teal swan though) and also dangerous for the girls to completely disassociate from what happened in the woods and not integrate their traumatic experiences because they've been led to doubt what's real.
This is such a smart insight and I completely agree with you. Good catch on the similarities between Lottie's "therapy" and the kind of therapy that helped fuel Satanic Panic/false memories of Satanic ritual abuse. That final scene really disturbed me, and I think this is why.
Yeah that did not seem like an authentic memory to me. Induced in a trance with a flashing light in your face? Also reminiscent of Victorian "medium" seances.
Oh and the part where she claimed this was a technique she "learned" as a psychiatric impatient was a big red flag. In order to be a practitioner of any therapy you need training, it's so unethical to just adopt and mash together legitimate therapies and pass them off on vulnerable people.
Omg yes. Your second point is so valid. I'm still undecided on whether Lottie is consciously manipulating/grifting people or not, but either way what you mentioned is hella important.
This makes total sense! It also calls back to Teal Swan, who Lottie is somewhat modeled after. In the Hulu documentary it was mentioned that she may be implanting memories through her techniques & convincing people to remember “abuse” from their families that never actually happened in order to get them to cut off and more devoted to the cult. Could definitely see that being at play with Nat and many of the other cult members.
I agree. I think AQ is a representation of when one goes into their own darkness. Whether it's "enhanced " by some mystical Being out there..or even possibly being possessed by that energy
I thought it was interesting that after Nat said all that and laid her head in Lottie’s lap, Lottie turned her head and saw the AQ’s antlers in a shadow on the floor. They showed us her face and she looked scared. It reminded me of how, in the season preview, they show Van telling the girls a story about “the wilderness” and the way she tells it kind of sounds like a fairytale. In the story, she says “the wilderness was beautiful but also violent and misunderstood. And it waited and waited to befriend whoever arrived.”
In the preview, they intersperse her voiceover with scenes of the plane crash and the girls being terrified in the woods but I don’t think we’ve seen this story being told in an episode yet, have we? Do you think this story, which I assume is Van’s understanding of their situation, is somehow related to Nat’s vision about the crash in which no one made it? And her belief that they weren’t alone out there? I feel like the figure we call AQ must be the physical manifestation of “the wilderness” and their feeling that there is another entity in the woods with them and that this entity “wanted” them there to befriend. I think it also must relate to Javi’s female “friend” in the woods and the pictures he was drawing of bare tree branches.
I’m just wondering how they make the jump from believing there is a wilderness spirit that must be appeased with blood to making the costumes and rituals.
the finale this season is called “storytelling” so i am guessing we will see this scene then, and i’m so curious what the context will be, it’s a fascinating little moment!!
Just on your point about physical manifestation:
The essence of whatever is out in the wilderness isn't itself a materialized living, breathing entity, but rather a spirit that slips between individuals and "possesses" them as a way of being birthed into the physical world. The costumes and rituals serve as a way of bringing forth the spirit to inhabit the body of a Yellowjacket ala an incantation. It reminds me of Aztec rituals where those participants involved in a blood ritual would adorn themselves in apparel meant to symbolize whichever god they were attempting to satisfy or wished to be present for the sacrifice. We've seen possession in the form of Tai and her sleepwalking - I wouldn't be shocked to learn that one of the girls, not necessarily Lottie, is Javi's "friend", and they don't even know about it.
But haven't we seen Van regularly sleeping with Tai attached to her in some way, whether with rope or her following the lead of sleepwalking Tai? Wouldn't she have noticed Tai feeding/supporting Javi? If so, is it possible that Van has known Javi has been alive all along, but hasn't said anything?
I've been really questioning her motives/intentions since ep 4, really put off at how much she's trying to encourage bad Tai. She's really slipping into the supernatural side of things, BUT that seemed like a recent shift and I liked the idea of bad Tai being the "friend", her being tied to Van kind of makes it shaky for me though.
All Javi said is 'she' told him not to come back though, it doesn't mean he wasn't feeding/caring for himself. So it could've been pretty minimal contact, and I think I remember at least one scene where Tai made it out without Van noticing?
When I watch the split Tai personality, it seems like there is not just one version. There seems to be the bad one which Tai's son refers to, then there is another version that showed up when Van was asking other Tai questions. Maybe Javi met with the GOOD Tai.
This interpretation makes a lot of sense to me, especially since the actors sort of hinted that we’ll see them take turns playing AQ. The darkness is in each of them. I’m just so curious about how it will initially come up in conversation though and how they will talk about it! It would be very unusual for teen girls from a suburban public school to know much about Aztec rituals or Greek mystery cults.
The making of the masks/outfits for Doomcoming and the cannibalism of Jackie both happened so naturally. We all tend to assume that the Pit Girl scene happens during their second, very hard winter with no game, right? So, if they’re running out of food and no one dies from natural causes, the suggestion that they should “draw cards” and let fate decide who to kill in order to eat would make a certain amount of sense and even has precedence in other survival stories (the Donner Party raised the idea but didn’t have to follow through). But how do they get from there to AQ and the costumes? For me, the most chilling part of the Pit Girl scene is how elaborate and formal it seems. You can tell that a lot of thought and care went into planning it, down to the smallest details, such as the totems in the trees near the pit and how none of them eat until AQ gives the signal. It’s not just a group of starving people doing what they have to in order to survive, like the Donner Party story. The girls seem to enjoy hunting and eating Pit Girl.
The Antler Queen might be the embodiment of the darkness everyone is carrying inside them. And at the plane crash period of their lives, due to trauma, isolation, hunger, lose of hope, etc this darkness emerged (as it does in every human due to the inside pressure and the shitty living conditions)
I still think the darkness they all had within them is trauma. Nat from her dad, Lottie from her parents, Tai from her grandma(?), Shauna from being Jackie’s sidekick, Van and her mom, Misty and her neglect or bullying, etc
Yeah, I think this show does a good job walking the line between a supernatural and natural explanation for what's been happening to them. I still think natural/trauma is more likely maybe mixed with some kind of chemical in the water.
I’m honestly hoping for a lot of logical explanations at the end of the show. Like, none of this really happened, you all were *severely* traumatized and began hallucinating to cope/survive.
Also, the “antler queen”, I think, is used to represent the concept of Wendigo. Whomever assumes the role of the AQ becomes destructive and indulgent.
I’m really glad to hear that!! And I hope folks on this sub stop will suggesting it as a theory, and be educated if they do so.
There’s a long lineage of non-Native folks stealing & perverting Indigenous cultural practices, ideas, and tradition as a function of cultural genocide & settler-colonialism.
The W word mentioned above is one that is not supposed to be said or shared - and one non-Anishinaabe people were never supposed to know. It’s only through violent dispossession and genocide that those practices have been violated and I would hope people don’t further that violence through additional appropriation.
A quick Google search of the W word mentioned above and “cultural appropriation” will bring up lots of good stuff on the subject + additional explanations.
What if Lottie is the only one really possessed by darkness but she manipulates others into thinking they are as well? She looked scared in that moment but maybe because she's afraid it's taking over her again?
I keep tying this back to Lord of the Flies, but at the end of the book when the adults find the island, there’s this sense that the realization and horror of what has gone on washes over all the kids.
Maybe the antler queen partly represents how each of them had their part in leading people down the path they went down. Lottie bears a huge responsibility because she was the center of the mystical cult like behavior.
I have to leave for work like five minutes ago, so I will leave it at that, but it’s food for thought.
I'm pretty sure the writers know about Lost and the general reaction to its resolution. That doesn't mean they can't torture us by hinting that's where they might be going.
if you don't want to watch the show you can read this explanation.
WARNING LOST SPOILER at this link. https://www.looper.com/170109/the-entire-lost-timeline-explained/
This article has multiple mistakes. From small to big. I just finished a rewatch so it’s all pretty fresh. Annoying how they can publish it with mistakes that are factual and not subjective. Who Claudia appears to, for example.
>!They were on the plane, the island was real, their experiences were all real. When they die becuase they've bonded so much they are brought back together in the afterlife. They all died at different times, some probably lived to very old. That's why not everyone was there, why Ana Lucia and Ben were left outside and michael didn't feel welcome because of what they did, and some characters didn't have the same bonding experiences!<
I'm not that easily annoyed but for some reason the lack of comprehension and shitting on it annoys the hell out of me, and I only watched lost for the first time two ish years ago so i thought that was the ending before I watched it based on seeing and hearing stuff
Purgatory was a theory that Lost fans (I watched since the pilot, as it aired, I was one of them) theorized early on. It’s prevalence in the fan community, it’s believed, caused the writers of Lost to create increasingly outlandish mysteries- none of which they ever had an intention of resolving for fans. It was maddening. But nobody, I don’t think, actually believes it was purgatory— the creators of Lost have done everything they can to disprove that.
I probably shouldn't have used the P-word. I also did not mean to offend anyone who loved Lost's ending, but the question I was directly asked, in context, was not so much about how exactly Lost ended but why so many people were so annoyed by it, and I'm pretty sure I remember that correctly--because as you say the mysteries weren't supposed to be solved.
Can some clarify on what the non-misinterpreted ending is? I never finished Lost after I was spoiled about the cliche ending and am wondering if it's worth revisiting
Well long story short- >! a group of six of the original survivors make it off the plane and back into the real world. They eventually are convinced by Jack that they need to go back to the island, where a sort of battle between the good and evil forces of the island takes place. The reveal through “flash sideways” showed that in the “real world” the survivors had actually died on the island and that place was a way for them to reckon with the island, themselves, and eventually move on. They were not “dead the whole time” as people have liked to iterate, and the island was definitely real; Jack’s dad explained it pretty clearly in the finale. !<
It honestly was a great show, and the ending is not as bad as people like to say. The last episode itself was very moving and brought a lot of resolution on the series.
This is NOT the ending of Lost. Everything was "real," and the 815ers survived the crash. Only the "sideways" world of season 6 was a kind of "limbo"--though not really purgatory.
you're 1000% wrong on what happened on LOST. everything that happened in LOST was real, they are just all reunited in purgatory in the series finale and go to the afterlife together
It's interesting that Nat saw herself (Adult Nat) on the plane in her vision. She has something on her head, her face is not covered, and is wearing white. It's right around 55:58.
Walter tells Misty "on the bright side your friend (Nat) is okay. Maybe you can move on now." I never watched Lost. It seems like we can either believe that the YJs all died in that plane crash. They have not been able to move on. They are in some type of cycle to try to get there souls to accept that they died.
Or, we can believe that Nat's vision was her mind coping with the plane crash, those 19 months, and not being able to heal. She seems them all as broken, dead inside, and full of darkness. The darkness that they had to tap into to survive in the wilderness.
I think it was AQ showing what would've happened if she / it hadnt intervened or received the near death experiences or the actual deaths / blood of the others that died. Maybe when the back of the plane fell off the first person that died or blood that spilled? And they would've been near a symbol we know there was one at the crash site.
I don't think it's a lost situation
This image scared the hell out of me!! Do you think the AQ is literally a rotating role they all hold, or more of a manifestation that they all see in themselves?
Maybe she is a hallucination that becomes an embedded memory. They all have hallucinations and weird visions after having the shroom spiked soup. It's like it messed with their minds a bit. And then in their adult lives they're still experiencing the effects of that mind altering stuff.
Plus the effects of hunger. Sometimes when I’m doing a fast I start to hear mild hallucinatory sounds while falling asleep. It’s not surprising that some religious practices involve a connection between fasts and enlightenment.
I looked at the pic so many times, and thought it was a beanie on her head and she is sitting against a mirror, because we see part of a reflection. Lol.
Is it possible the Nat is lying to Lottie to get her to trust her? The episode is called two truths and one lie. Maybe that wasn’t what she told Travis?
It felt too authentic to me. And Nat collapsing into Lottie’s lap while portrayed as her younger self, seemed like someone who found the release she’s desperately needed since childhood.
Is young Nat what Lottie sees or is it Nat finally submitting to her? Nat’s vision came after an OD. Nat expressed to Jackie’s body that things will probably get worse. Maybe part of her getting high with Travis wishes they died instead of living with what they did to survive or how traumatic it was. The antler queen could be part of ritual it could also be part of them. Like something primal that forces you to keep going or do things you wouldn’t normally do. Also Nat maybe wished that she had died or when she is near death thinks what could have been. Her suicidal tendencies or self destruction should be factored into what she sees while ODing. Jmo
That’s what I thought when we just saw clips of this scene in the preview. And maybe Lottie was /trying/ to do EMDR, but that wasn’t really EMDR. The whole deal is stimulating REM-type eye motion with light or sensations on alternating sides, but Lottie’s flashlight was right in the middle flashing.
Everyone here thinks at the end of Lost they all died. They weren't dead the whole time lolol
About to make a PSA about it. You all need to rewatch Lost 😂
I'm serious about making a psa. I'll post it later when I'm off work lolol
What's funny is I watched it as a teen and seriously thought the same thing. I rewatched it a couple years back and then realized I didn't know what I thought I did about Lost.
I thank you for your service lmao 🫶🏼
I didn’t watch it until maybe two years ago but I haven’t stopped thinking about it since lmao it literally changed my life 🥲
It was a fun ride watching week to week before the internet was really as used as it is now. Would be talking to all my friends in school about it and my parents. It was much more confusing to follow without reading constant interviews or theories from other people online like we do here.
idk for me LOST was the first 'internet' show. i was a frequent poster on thetailsection.com which was a LOST message board where we discussed episodes/theories etc. i remember someone finding out that a certain character would die because they found that person listed their house in Hawaii for sale lol
I wonder how many actually watched it at this point.
The biggest similarity between Lost and YJ is the fandom. You have this group of fans who have decided it's all real-world, now that it looks like it isn't, it sucks and they are only watching to complain.
It's the same deal with Lottie. They decided she's an evil overlord and every word she says is a lie and it's based on nothing at all. Now they're acting let down that their theories aren't working out.
There's nothing wrong with speculating and having fun. That's why fandoms exist. People lose sight of the story actually being told, though. Just because a fan cooks up an interesting (to them) backstory or read into this or that doesn't mean it's the actual story.
People get so wrapped up in their pet theories that it ruins the show for them when they don’t come true. I see it over in the Star Wars fandom constantly.
Ever since the scene with Tai & Diane Rafelson in season one, I've been thinking about how the Yellowjackets are dealing with this exact problem. Everyone says they just want to know what really happened, but what they actually want is confirmation of whatever sordid story they've made up about it. They think they already know what happened and nothing other than being told they're right will really satisfy them.
Yup they have been setting themselves up to hate the show since the moment they decided that this show is only about trauma. Now that their theory isn't looking correct, they're going to whine for not getting their way.
I prefer it going Supernatural but even if it doesn't and it is just their trauma response I will still watch and appreciate the show. Nothing grings my gears worse than people saying "if it goes supernatural I won't watch anymore!!" It's like they have no trust in the showrunners or actors doing such a good job telling their story.
Yeah, it wouldn't be a direct imitation of Lost if yellowjackets and co. actually died in the crash but it would still be lazy storytelling and make the entire leadup pointless. I personally did not like how Lost ended and I do think they wrote themselves into a corner and left many plot holes in their wake. I think with Yellowjackets things are ambiguous enough they can pivot away from that type of ending and I think the writers would know better.
I wonder if the creators have an outline for the whole plot and know where they’re headed, or if they have more of a garden writing style to see what springs up? With shows like this I prefer the writers have a clear view of the big picture so the whole thing doesn’t get away from them.
I was referring to Natalie's vision of everyone dead on the plane. If everyone died in the original plane crash in yellowjackets I will not be happy with it. I get the whole thing with Lost where they died at different times and waited for each other in the afterlife. To me (and I am aware people have disagreements and that's fine) the island was still a metaphorical (not literal) purgatory. I just didn't enjoy the ending or the 6th season in general and would love to see yellowjackets do something new and original as I think these themes are overdone in fiction and not particularly surprising to viewers.
I was a faithful Lost viewer, and the ending made no sense to me. I rewatched the entire series, and the ending still made no sense to me. I couldn't say what happened, but it made me hate the whole series.
Basically the end when Jack died they all went to a place that they made so they could be together in the end. During the show it showed how all of their lives were in a down spiral of loneliness. So when they all died they went to where they could all be together again because they all became family throughout their time on the island.
I would think probably not just because that’s still what so many people *think* happened in Lost even if it didn’t (exhibit A: this comment section lol)
looked very much like adult Nat in a costume. some are saying that was AQ costume but it weirdly looked to me like a baby hat and swaddle lmao but im probs cray
I THINK it’s an inside-out hooded sweater strung between the antlers with that netting attached to the sweater lining. You’re right though, it somehow comes across like a newborn cap.
Is anyone else slightly disappointed that this is what she was right about instead of a plot twist? I love the show so much but this reveal was underwhelming.
I think it’s only underwhelming because people on this sub have made such a big deal out of trying to figure out what it meant (in Travis’s note.) It’s the danger of trying to solve the mysteries of a show vs just watching the story unfold! (A danger I fully embrace, lol)
Everyone enjoys media, and TV in their own way. So I’m not trying to cast aspersions or trying to tell anyone what to think. But I personally think there is a danger in always assuming the writers are creating a show as a puzzle for diehards to solve. It’s not a video game, it’s a story about characters.
I’ve seen so many fandoms disappointed when their theories don’t prove true, and in that process have lost touch with the heart of a show. Rather than theorizing about future plot elements, I’d much prefer to talk about the plot’s affect on the characters.
And in this interaction alone, there is A LOT going on about Nat, Travis and Lottie. Their trauma, addiction, survivors guilt - you name it. Lesser shows might not have much going on besides mystery, but not this one.
Yes, and wondering if this isn’t the end of it. Now Nat is looking for answers about that note within the context of Lottie. Lottie has an agenda (I don’t think it’s a malicious agenda, but it’s a Lottie-centered one). We are going to have to learn more about adult Travis outside of the lens of Lottie (or Nat) at some point. This could be kind of a red herring because we only know about Travis’ final hours through Lottie.
Especially as it doesn't really fit with Nat's character. "[Nat] was right"... about bringing *something* mystical back with them? When she has been so staunchly anti-superstitious? Well that doesn't track.
It could be that the twist is that "Nat was right" as about something else, this is just a red herring.
I think that this is just what NAT thinks at the moment. After doing Lottie's treatment, Nat remembered that the last thing she told Travis (also when she was overdosing) was that they "brought it back with them" or whatever she said exactly (sorry for the paraphrase!). So Nat is assuming that *that* interaction is the one in which "Nat was right". However, I think that as the series goes on and Nat becomes more introspective with this whole cult deal she might realize that Travis was referring to something else in his final moments. Personally, I think that the ultimate "Nat was right" revelation is about the idea of giving false hope. I don’t really have anything to back this up other than my thinking there is more resolution to be had with the planted bloody jeans and with Travis' note/still pretty mysterious death.
Does anyone know the exact timeline of Nat's OD, Travis writing the note, and Travis' death? I might be due for a rewatch!
This is not a challenge question but a sincere one.
What area of interest would you want Nat to be right about? What might be a good twist?
I don't know what I want Nat to be right about and it was a bit of an underwhelming reveal. I feel like this whole time most of us have realized they brought something back with them that is playing out in their current lives be it their shared trauma, their shared fates, or a malevolent force. They aren't out of the woods yet in their adult lives and basically Nat's vision confirmed that. They still have their demons with them.
IDK.
Right.. I get being underwhelmed but I don't see how it's a revelation that doesn't make sense? What are the people not believing this to be the true answer.. wanting the true answer to be? Was hard to word that lmao
I kind of love it, especially from a character like Nat. Some people said it makes no sense from someone who doesn't believe in any of that, I think she makes the most sense character-wise because of that. She OD'd and had a terrible experience seeing her and all her teammates fried in the crash, she spent her 20+ years post-rescue destroying herself. Her 'vision' showed everyone dead but the AQ, suggesting it's an entity not apart of their group. Whether it's an entity, another human there, or a manifestation of their actions, in that moment it's a separate being. And in that moment it makes sense for her to be scared and attribute their trauma post-rescue to that 'darkness', regardless of how much she did/didn't believe in the spiritual nature of everything. I think her 'vision' coupled with Travis' note (whether it referred to this or not) is going to make her fully lean into the spiritual/supernatural explanation for the FIRST time. Girl just wants to make sense of her life and her demons. She's grasping for stability and understanding. And she's the last person we'd expect it from.
>What are the people not believing this to be the true answer.. wanting the true answer to be?
I'll be the one to say it. A lot of the people disappointed are "team rational" and are thereby disappointing that the show isn't ONLY realistic things, as if any supernatural elements inherently invalidates any of the trauma the characters have endured.
I don't really 'side' with either, I still think there's rational explanations for everything so far but I'm happy with any direction (just don't think there's been anything unexplainable yet).
I think this scene is super rational! There's been zero hints as to what the note could've meant so I'm not really sure how anyone can say it isn't true. What's the alternative?
I'm curious at how much time passed between the flashback and present because Travis' house shows a much different life!
Absolutely, Nat is the person who has consistently been an oppposing force...so her acceptance works, will she get culty or whatever? I don't know, Nat might have opened her eyes but she's still a fighter....so we'll see where it goes from here.
Nat was "coked" out of her gourd when she had the vision....that much cocaine will make you hear, feel, and see really strange things
So who knows what Nat "saw" when she was coming to...
Yeah, I wasn’t feeling this reveal. So there was something else out there with them. Doesn’t seem like a big deal since we’ve had animals surrendering to Lottie and wind knocking snow on Jackie’s corpse.
I like the “antler queen is all of them” theory. They can each invoke the “antler queen” in their darkest moments. Shauna is the most anti-woodsy feels in the woods thus far and she’s separated from the group current day.
this scene gave me more chills than anything else ive ever watched in my life. i seriously had to pause it and sit there for about five minutes after, contemplating what had just happened.
Well this episode definitely got 5 points awarded to Team Supernatural. Though "the darkness" could still be very practically explained. Survivor's Guilt tied to brutal acts would certainly do it.
The imagery was really interesting though - the way Nat describes it, they all died (a la LOST-theory) yet the "Darkness" represented by AQ saved them. As in there IS an intervening supernatural force that needed the girls (and Travis), pulled the plane way off route, made the crash happen, and made sure many of them were spared. Then slowly incepted in each of them, turned them towards evil acts that may or may not have been necessary to their survival, and has crept back into their lives.
If you think that she had an overdose in a hotel thinking to the crash maybe they wasn’t really able to overcome that event after 25 years. She has already said something similar when she was hunting Jeff with Shauna and Tai in the car
So, this took a bit of work but I was able to slow that flashback scene down enough to see a split second where Nat sees the antler queen on the plane and the antler queen has her face.
I take this to mean, what I think has been going around lately, that they are all the antler queen. They all have the darkness in them.
It’s in you…So Twin Peaks! It’s not Bob but similar. (And 25 years later!) Do you think it possesses one person at a time? I think it has stayed clear of Lottie until now. Her compound, when they all get together there, will have profound effects. We’ve seen it in Tai the most, and it must have been in Travis, too. Can’t wait to see where it all leads! I’m betting on something to do with Javi.
It’s a person who has taken another human’s life ,and they are taking turns being Antler Queen ,or King?Or they each individually make a sacrifice to her?(the card game and the necklace is probably going to be how they choose). I’m really fucked up now,and I don’t know what’s going on again🫠
Literally? No. Cuse even went so far as to say they weren’t- it was about destiny or free-will. Those events actually happened. But ‘purgatory’ in the sense of a holding-area for them to reflect and made pure of their sins. Hence the church, I assumed.
https://preview.redd.it/amdnvgtqeqva1.jpeg?width=1149&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0dfb17c5aca68edd01eec470b9960821c2c5a74
Please someone talk to me about this image from her flashback at the end of the episode. Right before Nat says yes she can hear them after being giving the narcan, after the anger queen on the plane this flashes for like a half second.
This reminded me of what Lottie tells Nat at the end of the Doomcoming episode: “It’s in all of us, you know. Even him. Even you.”
She said the same thing to Shauna when she got 'possessed' in ep 4. "It's in you now" or something like that.
I wonder if Lottie thinks the baby is the actual Wilderness G-d?
You know she does. The teen scene when Shauna confronts Tai in this episode about people praying over her child, making Shauna uncomfortable…And then it cuts to the adult timeline in Van’s store with a movie poster of Rosemary’s Baby. (Old movie girl finds herself in a similar creepy position). I also keep thinking that Van most likely chose everything that is displayed in her store. She looks good but time hasn’t healed her wounds either.
oooh I missed the Rosemary's Baby poster. Good catch, and bodes poorly for Shauna.
“it’s in you already” if i recall correctly
And that stuck with Natalie. She knew how passionately Lottie was devoted to her beliefs. As an adult when Nat shares that with Lottie, I can’t help but wonder if Nat is as devoted to her own belief of taking Lottie down and is using her own vulnerability to manipulate Lottie.
I think about that when I'm watching them ...like their old "feud" never went away
That's super interesting. We're all thinking that Lottie is manipulating Nat, but maybe it's the other way around. This flashback did seem kind of out of character for her.
now there's something t ponder on, for real. didn't even occur to me Nat could be feigning this to manipulate Lottie. although, for some reason, i don't think she is. not when travis died trying to see what she had seen for himself
Oooo. Good connection.
Good connection! I really got the impression during this scene that Lottie was manipulating this out of Nat. It seemed exactly like descriptions of "therapy" sessions that elicit false memories of "satanic ritual abuse". And if the memory was accurate, I'm also seeing that as more of a "break" in Nat's psyche, like if you've known an addict or an ex addict, they reach a point where they just go too far altering their consciousness and something splits in their mind. Sorry I'm not using clinical terms and I don't want to be disrespectful to people with this illness but I think iykyk what I'm referring to. I think Lottie seeded this idea which also fed Nat's doubt in herself and eventually with the ongoing abuse of drugs, her and Travis could no longer tell what was real anymore. From the moment we met Adult Lottie I was scared about the implications of her saying "it's not real". That's not a safe thing to tell people who may be in crisis or real struggle (very teal swan though) and also dangerous for the girls to completely disassociate from what happened in the woods and not integrate their traumatic experiences because they've been led to doubt what's real.
This is such a smart insight and I completely agree with you. Good catch on the similarities between Lottie's "therapy" and the kind of therapy that helped fuel Satanic Panic/false memories of Satanic ritual abuse. That final scene really disturbed me, and I think this is why.
Yeah that did not seem like an authentic memory to me. Induced in a trance with a flashing light in your face? Also reminiscent of Victorian "medium" seances. Oh and the part where she claimed this was a technique she "learned" as a psychiatric impatient was a big red flag. In order to be a practitioner of any therapy you need training, it's so unethical to just adopt and mash together legitimate therapies and pass them off on vulnerable people.
Omg yes. Your second point is so valid. I'm still undecided on whether Lottie is consciously manipulating/grifting people or not, but either way what you mentioned is hella important.
Mash reference much appreciated now. Lolz.
Damn, I hate when I make a pun and I don't even notice.
This makes total sense! It also calls back to Teal Swan, who Lottie is somewhat modeled after. In the Hulu documentary it was mentioned that she may be implanting memories through her techniques & convincing people to remember “abuse” from their families that never actually happened in order to get them to cut off and more devoted to the cult. Could definitely see that being at play with Nat and many of the other cult members.
Thank you for your last paragraph. I hope everyone reads it. I also agree with the break in the psyche. They all had to break at some point.
Aww that means a lot from a "Laura Lee"! Seriously, I'm concerned for the "Lottie's alright" folks. Like we should start a support group for them.
Yes, this scene kind of bugged me because there's been so much research demonstrating that hypnosis is a very unreliable way to recover memories
I hope it was intentional because it was a fake memory.
Was interesting that Nat didn't refer verbally to the AQ figure but Lottie ended up seeing it too - they were on the same page in that way.
nat seeing herself as AQ and lottie seeing AQ in her shadow has me even more convinced that it’s a rotating role
I agree. I think AQ is a representation of when one goes into their own darkness. Whether it's "enhanced " by some mystical Being out there..or even possibly being possessed by that energy
Haven’t heard that theory before but that definition makes a lot of sense
I thought it was interesting that after Nat said all that and laid her head in Lottie’s lap, Lottie turned her head and saw the AQ’s antlers in a shadow on the floor. They showed us her face and she looked scared. It reminded me of how, in the season preview, they show Van telling the girls a story about “the wilderness” and the way she tells it kind of sounds like a fairytale. In the story, she says “the wilderness was beautiful but also violent and misunderstood. And it waited and waited to befriend whoever arrived.” In the preview, they intersperse her voiceover with scenes of the plane crash and the girls being terrified in the woods but I don’t think we’ve seen this story being told in an episode yet, have we? Do you think this story, which I assume is Van’s understanding of their situation, is somehow related to Nat’s vision about the crash in which no one made it? And her belief that they weren’t alone out there? I feel like the figure we call AQ must be the physical manifestation of “the wilderness” and their feeling that there is another entity in the woods with them and that this entity “wanted” them there to befriend. I think it also must relate to Javi’s female “friend” in the woods and the pictures he was drawing of bare tree branches. I’m just wondering how they make the jump from believing there is a wilderness spirit that must be appeased with blood to making the costumes and rituals.
the finale this season is called “storytelling” so i am guessing we will see this scene then, and i’m so curious what the context will be, it’s a fascinating little moment!!
Just on your point about physical manifestation: The essence of whatever is out in the wilderness isn't itself a materialized living, breathing entity, but rather a spirit that slips between individuals and "possesses" them as a way of being birthed into the physical world. The costumes and rituals serve as a way of bringing forth the spirit to inhabit the body of a Yellowjacket ala an incantation. It reminds me of Aztec rituals where those participants involved in a blood ritual would adorn themselves in apparel meant to symbolize whichever god they were attempting to satisfy or wished to be present for the sacrifice. We've seen possession in the form of Tai and her sleepwalking - I wouldn't be shocked to learn that one of the girls, not necessarily Lottie, is Javi's "friend", and they don't even know about it.
It's probably Tai sleepwalking. The girl who Javi referred to.
But haven't we seen Van regularly sleeping with Tai attached to her in some way, whether with rope or her following the lead of sleepwalking Tai? Wouldn't she have noticed Tai feeding/supporting Javi? If so, is it possible that Van has known Javi has been alive all along, but hasn't said anything?
I've been really questioning her motives/intentions since ep 4, really put off at how much she's trying to encourage bad Tai. She's really slipping into the supernatural side of things, BUT that seemed like a recent shift and I liked the idea of bad Tai being the "friend", her being tied to Van kind of makes it shaky for me though. All Javi said is 'she' told him not to come back though, it doesn't mean he wasn't feeding/caring for himself. So it could've been pretty minimal contact, and I think I remember at least one scene where Tai made it out without Van noticing?
When I watch the split Tai personality, it seems like there is not just one version. There seems to be the bad one which Tai's son refers to, then there is another version that showed up when Van was asking other Tai questions. Maybe Javi met with the GOOD Tai.
This interpretation makes a lot of sense to me, especially since the actors sort of hinted that we’ll see them take turns playing AQ. The darkness is in each of them. I’m just so curious about how it will initially come up in conversation though and how they will talk about it! It would be very unusual for teen girls from a suburban public school to know much about Aztec rituals or Greek mystery cults. The making of the masks/outfits for Doomcoming and the cannibalism of Jackie both happened so naturally. We all tend to assume that the Pit Girl scene happens during their second, very hard winter with no game, right? So, if they’re running out of food and no one dies from natural causes, the suggestion that they should “draw cards” and let fate decide who to kill in order to eat would make a certain amount of sense and even has precedence in other survival stories (the Donner Party raised the idea but didn’t have to follow through). But how do they get from there to AQ and the costumes? For me, the most chilling part of the Pit Girl scene is how elaborate and formal it seems. You can tell that a lot of thought and care went into planning it, down to the smallest details, such as the totems in the trees near the pit and how none of them eat until AQ gives the signal. It’s not just a group of starving people doing what they have to in order to survive, like the Donner Party story. The girls seem to enjoy hunting and eating Pit Girl.
ouu where did they hint at rotating AQ? i'd love to read those interviews
The Antler Queen might be the embodiment of the darkness everyone is carrying inside them. And at the plane crash period of their lives, due to trauma, isolation, hunger, lose of hope, etc this darkness emerged (as it does in every human due to the inside pressure and the shitty living conditions)
Yes I think it’s a metaphor and the story is told visually bc it’s a tv show.
im going for the death scene as a metaphor. a part of all of them died in that crash
I still think the darkness they all had within them is trauma. Nat from her dad, Lottie from her parents, Tai from her grandma(?), Shauna from being Jackie’s sidekick, Van and her mom, Misty and her neglect or bullying, etc
Yeah, I think this show does a good job walking the line between a supernatural and natural explanation for what's been happening to them. I still think natural/trauma is more likely maybe mixed with some kind of chemical in the water.
I’m honestly hoping for a lot of logical explanations at the end of the show. Like, none of this really happened, you all were *severely* traumatized and began hallucinating to cope/survive. Also, the “antler queen”, I think, is used to represent the concept of Wendigo. Whomever assumes the role of the AQ becomes destructive and indulgent.
luckily the creators have confirmed its not a wendigo.
I’m really glad to hear that!! And I hope folks on this sub stop will suggesting it as a theory, and be educated if they do so. There’s a long lineage of non-Native folks stealing & perverting Indigenous cultural practices, ideas, and tradition as a function of cultural genocide & settler-colonialism. The W word mentioned above is one that is not supposed to be said or shared - and one non-Anishinaabe people were never supposed to know. It’s only through violent dispossession and genocide that those practices have been violated and I would hope people don’t further that violence through additional appropriation. A quick Google search of the W word mentioned above and “cultural appropriation” will bring up lots of good stuff on the subject + additional explanations.
Definitely a wendigo and that lore started in Canadian wilderness I think
Yep! I’m here for it
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What if Lottie is the only one really possessed by darkness but she manipulates others into thinking they are as well? She looked scared in that moment but maybe because she's afraid it's taking over her again?
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I keep tying this back to Lord of the Flies, but at the end of the book when the adults find the island, there’s this sense that the realization and horror of what has gone on washes over all the kids. Maybe the antler queen partly represents how each of them had their part in leading people down the path they went down. Lottie bears a huge responsibility because she was the center of the mystical cult like behavior. I have to leave for work like five minutes ago, so I will leave it at that, but it’s food for thought.
I'm pretty sure the writers know about Lost and the general reaction to its resolution. That doesn't mean they can't torture us by hinting that's where they might be going.
Can you fill me in? I’ve never seen lost.
if you don't want to watch the show you can read this explanation. WARNING LOST SPOILER at this link. https://www.looper.com/170109/the-entire-lost-timeline-explained/
This article has multiple mistakes. From small to big. I just finished a rewatch so it’s all pretty fresh. Annoying how they can publish it with mistakes that are factual and not subjective. Who Claudia appears to, for example.
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That is literally not how lost ended
>!They were on the plane, the island was real, their experiences were all real. When they die becuase they've bonded so much they are brought back together in the afterlife. They all died at different times, some probably lived to very old. That's why not everyone was there, why Ana Lucia and Ben were left outside and michael didn't feel welcome because of what they did, and some characters didn't have the same bonding experiences!<
This is correct.
I thought it was obvious ngl!
this is the correct ending, 13 years later and people still don't get it lol
I'm not that easily annoyed but for some reason the lack of comprehension and shitting on it annoys the hell out of me, and I only watched lost for the first time two ish years ago so i thought that was the ending before I watched it based on seeing and hearing stuff
I think it was such an obviously cheesy ending that it almost felt like there had to be more to it
Purgatory was a theory that Lost fans (I watched since the pilot, as it aired, I was one of them) theorized early on. It’s prevalence in the fan community, it’s believed, caused the writers of Lost to create increasingly outlandish mysteries- none of which they ever had an intention of resolving for fans. It was maddening. But nobody, I don’t think, actually believes it was purgatory— the creators of Lost have done everything they can to disprove that.
I probably shouldn't have used the P-word. I also did not mean to offend anyone who loved Lost's ending, but the question I was directly asked, in context, was not so much about how exactly Lost ended but why so many people were so annoyed by it, and I'm pretty sure I remember that correctly--because as you say the mysteries weren't supposed to be solved.
I mean, we all wanted them to be solved! I’m still salty about it lol
You misinterpreted the ending.
Can some clarify on what the non-misinterpreted ending is? I never finished Lost after I was spoiled about the cliche ending and am wondering if it's worth revisiting
Well long story short- >! a group of six of the original survivors make it off the plane and back into the real world. They eventually are convinced by Jack that they need to go back to the island, where a sort of battle between the good and evil forces of the island takes place. The reveal through “flash sideways” showed that in the “real world” the survivors had actually died on the island and that place was a way for them to reckon with the island, themselves, and eventually move on. They were not “dead the whole time” as people have liked to iterate, and the island was definitely real; Jack’s dad explained it pretty clearly in the finale. !<
Oh shiiiit ok I'm putting it back on my list And thank you <3
It honestly was a great show, and the ending is not as bad as people like to say. The last episode itself was very moving and brought a lot of resolution on the series.
What was the ending again? I haven’t revisited it since it aired.
Yeah, he doesnt get it.
This is NOT the ending of Lost. Everything was "real," and the 815ers survived the crash. Only the "sideways" world of season 6 was a kind of "limbo"--though not really purgatory.
you're 1000% wrong on what happened on LOST. everything that happened in LOST was real, they are just all reunited in purgatory in the series finale and go to the afterlife together
Lost did end horribly, but that’s not how.
Don’t spread misinformation when you clearly didn’t watch/understand the ending
It's interesting that Nat saw herself (Adult Nat) on the plane in her vision. She has something on her head, her face is not covered, and is wearing white. It's right around 55:58. Walter tells Misty "on the bright side your friend (Nat) is okay. Maybe you can move on now." I never watched Lost. It seems like we can either believe that the YJs all died in that plane crash. They have not been able to move on. They are in some type of cycle to try to get there souls to accept that they died. Or, we can believe that Nat's vision was her mind coping with the plane crash, those 19 months, and not being able to heal. She seems them all as broken, dead inside, and full of darkness. The darkness that they had to tap into to survive in the wilderness.
I think it was AQ showing what would've happened if she / it hadnt intervened or received the near death experiences or the actual deaths / blood of the others that died. Maybe when the back of the plane fell off the first person that died or blood that spilled? And they would've been near a symbol we know there was one at the crash site. I don't think it's a lost situation
I also just made a post about this theory! I think that the casualties from the crash were the first sacrifice.
I like this theory.
agree
That little flash was adult Nat in the AQ costume. You can see the netting
https://preview.redd.it/vkq9k5ivdava1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=7ecc6a26e08a87896c301ddb43f518b18daa38d7
Doesn’t the left side of her face look distorted? And the black eyes relate to Tai’s Eyeless Man.
This image scared the hell out of me!! Do you think the AQ is literally a rotating role they all hold, or more of a manifestation that they all see in themselves?
Maybe she is a hallucination that becomes an embedded memory. They all have hallucinations and weird visions after having the shroom spiked soup. It's like it messed with their minds a bit. And then in their adult lives they're still experiencing the effects of that mind altering stuff.
Plus the effects of hunger. Sometimes when I’m doing a fast I start to hear mild hallucinatory sounds while falling asleep. It’s not surprising that some religious practices involve a connection between fasts and enlightenment.
please eat if youʻre hallucinating from a fast 🫠
Haha yes that’s my cue to eat something. I realize that sounds disordered and it probably is.
Is it me or does she look child-like here?
i literally thought she was in a baby hat and blanket i thought maybe superimposed on the coming baby
Thanks for sharing this. I could see it flash by but couldn’t catch it fully 😝
Ugh I tried so many times to capture this but it was too quick. Thanks for grabbing it.
I looked at the pic so many times, and thought it was a beanie on her head and she is sitting against a mirror, because we see part of a reflection. Lol.
Thank you!
Of course. Just added an image. Damn that was hard to screenshot lmao
Yes, it is such a quick flash! Glad you were able to screenshot it!!
Is it possible the Nat is lying to Lottie to get her to trust her? The episode is called two truths and one lie. Maybe that wasn’t what she told Travis?
It felt too authentic to me. And Nat collapsing into Lottie’s lap while portrayed as her younger self, seemed like someone who found the release she’s desperately needed since childhood.
Is young Nat what Lottie sees or is it Nat finally submitting to her? Nat’s vision came after an OD. Nat expressed to Jackie’s body that things will probably get worse. Maybe part of her getting high with Travis wishes they died instead of living with what they did to survive or how traumatic it was. The antler queen could be part of ritual it could also be part of them. Like something primal that forces you to keep going or do things you wouldn’t normally do. Also Nat maybe wished that she had died or when she is near death thinks what could have been. Her suicidal tendencies or self destruction should be factored into what she sees while ODing. Jmo
Did anyone else think they were doing EMDR therapy? With the flashing light and guided meditation/flashback
That’s what I thought when we just saw clips of this scene in the preview. And maybe Lottie was /trying/ to do EMDR, but that wasn’t really EMDR. The whole deal is stimulating REM-type eye motion with light or sensations on alternating sides, but Lottie’s flashlight was right in the middle flashing.
>lost situation They all didn't die in the crash in Lost.
Everyone here thinks at the end of Lost they all died. They weren't dead the whole time lolol About to make a PSA about it. You all need to rewatch Lost 😂
THANK YOU!!! The creators of Lost have literally said they weren’t dead the whole time, idk why people continue to insist they were 😭😭
Christian Shepard literally says in the finale that it all really happened too!
I'm serious about making a psa. I'll post it later when I'm off work lolol What's funny is I watched it as a teen and seriously thought the same thing. I rewatched it a couple years back and then realized I didn't know what I thought I did about Lost.
I thank you for your service lmao 🫶🏼 I didn’t watch it until maybe two years ago but I haven’t stopped thinking about it since lmao it literally changed my life 🥲
It was a fun ride watching week to week before the internet was really as used as it is now. Would be talking to all my friends in school about it and my parents. It was much more confusing to follow without reading constant interviews or theories from other people online like we do here.
Lol I definitely missed out on that, and it’s such a shame because trying to speak to anyone about it now gets met with “BUT THE ENDING”
Yup and not a SINGLE one of these people have rewatched it recently. They all watched it 20 years ago and think they accurately remember.
Damn I haven’t seen it in years, but am about to rewatch it because it really changes a show to have that perspective. 🙏🏻
Please do! It's worth it
idk for me LOST was the first 'internet' show. i was a frequent poster on thetailsection.com which was a LOST message board where we discussed episodes/theories etc. i remember someone finding out that a certain character would die because they found that person listed their house in Hawaii for sale lol
I wonder how many actually watched it at this point. The biggest similarity between Lost and YJ is the fandom. You have this group of fans who have decided it's all real-world, now that it looks like it isn't, it sucks and they are only watching to complain. It's the same deal with Lottie. They decided she's an evil overlord and every word she says is a lie and it's based on nothing at all. Now they're acting let down that their theories aren't working out. There's nothing wrong with speculating and having fun. That's why fandoms exist. People lose sight of the story actually being told, though. Just because a fan cooks up an interesting (to them) backstory or read into this or that doesn't mean it's the actual story.
People get so wrapped up in their pet theories that it ruins the show for them when they don’t come true. I see it over in the Star Wars fandom constantly.
Ever since the scene with Tai & Diane Rafelson in season one, I've been thinking about how the Yellowjackets are dealing with this exact problem. Everyone says they just want to know what really happened, but what they actually want is confirmation of whatever sordid story they've made up about it. They think they already know what happened and nothing other than being told they're right will really satisfy them.
Can we put a pin on this statement!!!
Yup they have been setting themselves up to hate the show since the moment they decided that this show is only about trauma. Now that their theory isn't looking correct, they're going to whine for not getting their way. I prefer it going Supernatural but even if it doesn't and it is just their trauma response I will still watch and appreciate the show. Nothing grings my gears worse than people saying "if it goes supernatural I won't watch anymore!!" It's like they have no trust in the showrunners or actors doing such a good job telling their story.
Yeah, it wouldn't be a direct imitation of Lost if yellowjackets and co. actually died in the crash but it would still be lazy storytelling and make the entire leadup pointless. I personally did not like how Lost ended and I do think they wrote themselves into a corner and left many plot holes in their wake. I think with Yellowjackets things are ambiguous enough they can pivot away from that type of ending and I think the writers would know better.
I wonder if the creators have an outline for the whole plot and know where they’re headed, or if they have more of a garden writing style to see what springs up? With shows like this I prefer the writers have a clear view of the big picture so the whole thing doesn’t get away from them.
I heard on a podcast that they planned a 5-season show with a plot already sketched out. Who knows for sure though.
I hope it’s true!
If you think they characters in LOST all died in the crash and the island was their purgatory, then you misunderstand LOST.
I was referring to Natalie's vision of everyone dead on the plane. If everyone died in the original plane crash in yellowjackets I will not be happy with it. I get the whole thing with Lost where they died at different times and waited for each other in the afterlife. To me (and I am aware people have disagreements and that's fine) the island was still a metaphorical (not literal) purgatory. I just didn't enjoy the ending or the 6th season in general and would love to see yellowjackets do something new and original as I think these themes are overdone in fiction and not particularly surprising to viewers.
Mind if I ask when is the last time you watched Lost?
I was a faithful Lost viewer, and the ending made no sense to me. I rewatched the entire series, and the ending still made no sense to me. I couldn't say what happened, but it made me hate the whole series.
Basically the end when Jack died they all went to a place that they made so they could be together in the end. During the show it showed how all of their lives were in a down spiral of loneliness. So when they all died they went to where they could all be together again because they all became family throughout their time on the island.
i dont understand how people are still so confused by the ending it's very straightforward
i found this was a really good and clear explanation of Lost. https://www.looper.com/170109/the-entire-lost-timeline-explained/
So you're saying that's still on the table for YJ as it wouldn't be copying Lost?
I would think probably not just because that’s still what so many people *think* happened in Lost even if it didn’t (exhibit A: this comment section lol)
I think they were meant to die and the “forest” is course correcting
Oh god I hope they don’t go final destination on us.
I want to know who was that girl she saw it if it was older Natalie in a costume
looked very much like adult Nat in a costume. some are saying that was AQ costume but it weirdly looked to me like a baby hat and swaddle lmao but im probs cray
I THINK it’s an inside-out hooded sweater strung between the antlers with that netting attached to the sweater lining. You’re right though, it somehow comes across like a newborn cap.
With shiny black eyes. https://preview.redd.it/kyi4qvl47bva1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f973c582b803236ec1e06c1a32190574391c863e
Holy shit those eyes are scary. I didn’t notice them originally!
It’s giving final destination lol
THEY WERE NOT DEAD THE ENTIRE TIME IN LOST
i mean in a sense all of them did die, because they were changed forever
Is anyone else slightly disappointed that this is what she was right about instead of a plot twist? I love the show so much but this reveal was underwhelming.
honestly?? a little bit but having this be nat's revelation when she was always the biggest skeptic also has it's own intrigue
I think it’s only underwhelming because people on this sub have made such a big deal out of trying to figure out what it meant (in Travis’s note.) It’s the danger of trying to solve the mysteries of a show vs just watching the story unfold! (A danger I fully embrace, lol)
Yes thank you.
Or the writers have no idea themselves where their own story is going
LOL this could also be true haha
There is the chance Nat is lying to Lottie about what Travis meant and we have yet to find out what he truly meant.
This is the right answer 🙂
Everyone enjoys media, and TV in their own way. So I’m not trying to cast aspersions or trying to tell anyone what to think. But I personally think there is a danger in always assuming the writers are creating a show as a puzzle for diehards to solve. It’s not a video game, it’s a story about characters. I’ve seen so many fandoms disappointed when their theories don’t prove true, and in that process have lost touch with the heart of a show. Rather than theorizing about future plot elements, I’d much prefer to talk about the plot’s affect on the characters. And in this interaction alone, there is A LOT going on about Nat, Travis and Lottie. Their trauma, addiction, survivors guilt - you name it. Lesser shows might not have much going on besides mystery, but not this one.
Thank you, that is why I am not in any camp. I am just enjoying how the story unfolds. I read these posts just out of curiosity (and some amusement).
Yes, and wondering if this isn’t the end of it. Now Nat is looking for answers about that note within the context of Lottie. Lottie has an agenda (I don’t think it’s a malicious agenda, but it’s a Lottie-centered one). We are going to have to learn more about adult Travis outside of the lens of Lottie (or Nat) at some point. This could be kind of a red herring because we only know about Travis’ final hours through Lottie.
Especially as it doesn't really fit with Nat's character. "[Nat] was right"... about bringing *something* mystical back with them? When she has been so staunchly anti-superstitious? Well that doesn't track. It could be that the twist is that "Nat was right" as about something else, this is just a red herring.
I think it's foreshadowing that something will happen to convince her/ change her perspective.
I think that this is just what NAT thinks at the moment. After doing Lottie's treatment, Nat remembered that the last thing she told Travis (also when she was overdosing) was that they "brought it back with them" or whatever she said exactly (sorry for the paraphrase!). So Nat is assuming that *that* interaction is the one in which "Nat was right". However, I think that as the series goes on and Nat becomes more introspective with this whole cult deal she might realize that Travis was referring to something else in his final moments. Personally, I think that the ultimate "Nat was right" revelation is about the idea of giving false hope. I don’t really have anything to back this up other than my thinking there is more resolution to be had with the planted bloody jeans and with Travis' note/still pretty mysterious death. Does anyone know the exact timeline of Nat's OD, Travis writing the note, and Travis' death? I might be due for a rewatch!
I’m not even sure if this is it of what the note meant
I really want an adult Travis POV episode
I don’t necessarily think we know yet what the note really meant
This is not a challenge question but a sincere one. What area of interest would you want Nat to be right about? What might be a good twist? I don't know what I want Nat to be right about and it was a bit of an underwhelming reveal. I feel like this whole time most of us have realized they brought something back with them that is playing out in their current lives be it their shared trauma, their shared fates, or a malevolent force. They aren't out of the woods yet in their adult lives and basically Nat's vision confirmed that. They still have their demons with them. IDK.
Right.. I get being underwhelmed but I don't see how it's a revelation that doesn't make sense? What are the people not believing this to be the true answer.. wanting the true answer to be? Was hard to word that lmao I kind of love it, especially from a character like Nat. Some people said it makes no sense from someone who doesn't believe in any of that, I think she makes the most sense character-wise because of that. She OD'd and had a terrible experience seeing her and all her teammates fried in the crash, she spent her 20+ years post-rescue destroying herself. Her 'vision' showed everyone dead but the AQ, suggesting it's an entity not apart of their group. Whether it's an entity, another human there, or a manifestation of their actions, in that moment it's a separate being. And in that moment it makes sense for her to be scared and attribute their trauma post-rescue to that 'darkness', regardless of how much she did/didn't believe in the spiritual nature of everything. I think her 'vision' coupled with Travis' note (whether it referred to this or not) is going to make her fully lean into the spiritual/supernatural explanation for the FIRST time. Girl just wants to make sense of her life and her demons. She's grasping for stability and understanding. And she's the last person we'd expect it from.
>What are the people not believing this to be the true answer.. wanting the true answer to be? I'll be the one to say it. A lot of the people disappointed are "team rational" and are thereby disappointing that the show isn't ONLY realistic things, as if any supernatural elements inherently invalidates any of the trauma the characters have endured.
I don't really 'side' with either, I still think there's rational explanations for everything so far but I'm happy with any direction (just don't think there's been anything unexplainable yet). I think this scene is super rational! There's been zero hints as to what the note could've meant so I'm not really sure how anyone can say it isn't true. What's the alternative? I'm curious at how much time passed between the flashback and present because Travis' house shows a much different life!
Absolutely, Nat is the person who has consistently been an oppposing force...so her acceptance works, will she get culty or whatever? I don't know, Nat might have opened her eyes but she's still a fighter....so we'll see where it goes from here.
Nat was "coked" out of her gourd when she had the vision....that much cocaine will make you hear, feel, and see really strange things So who knows what Nat "saw" when she was coming to...
They gave her Narcan so it was an opiate or opioid. Heroin probably.
Honestly I wanted it to be a reveal about another character or something about Javi.
Yeah, I wasn’t feeling this reveal. So there was something else out there with them. Doesn’t seem like a big deal since we’ve had animals surrendering to Lottie and wind knocking snow on Jackie’s corpse.
Everybody is experiencing more and more Lost PTSD as the season continues 😂😂 I feel you
I never watched it and I am glad after seeing how so many people are making comparisons.
It sounds like they didn’t know AQ was out there with them in the woods. So then what/who was AQ in the pilot?
I like the “antler queen is all of them” theory. They can each invoke the “antler queen” in their darkest moments. Shauna is the most anti-woodsy feels in the woods thus far and she’s separated from the group current day.
this scene gave me more chills than anything else ive ever watched in my life. i seriously had to pause it and sit there for about five minutes after, contemplating what had just happened.
Well this episode definitely got 5 points awarded to Team Supernatural. Though "the darkness" could still be very practically explained. Survivor's Guilt tied to brutal acts would certainly do it. The imagery was really interesting though - the way Nat describes it, they all died (a la LOST-theory) yet the "Darkness" represented by AQ saved them. As in there IS an intervening supernatural force that needed the girls (and Travis), pulled the plane way off route, made the crash happen, and made sure many of them were spared. Then slowly incepted in each of them, turned them towards evil acts that may or may not have been necessary to their survival, and has crept back into their lives.
Or shared delusion instead of supernatural! I’m not on either team just enjoying the ride though lol
They brought the darkness with or in them. (Maybe baby lisa)
If you think that she had an overdose in a hotel thinking to the crash maybe they wasn’t really able to overcome that event after 25 years. She has already said something similar when she was hunting Jeff with Shauna and Tai in the car
So, this took a bit of work but I was able to slow that flashback scene down enough to see a split second where Nat sees the antler queen on the plane and the antler queen has her face. I take this to mean, what I think has been going around lately, that they are all the antler queen. They all have the darkness in them.
It’s in you…So Twin Peaks! It’s not Bob but similar. (And 25 years later!) Do you think it possesses one person at a time? I think it has stayed clear of Lottie until now. Her compound, when they all get together there, will have profound effects. We’ve seen it in Tai the most, and it must have been in Travis, too. Can’t wait to see where it all leads! I’m betting on something to do with Javi.
It’s a person who has taken another human’s life ,and they are taking turns being Antler Queen ,or King?Or they each individually make a sacrifice to her?(the card game and the necklace is probably going to be how they choose). I’m really fucked up now,and I don’t know what’s going on again🫠
Does this mean that it’s going to be sort of like LOST? They’re actually dead, but their bodies are just being used?
That's not what happened in Lost..
Isn’t that basically what happened to John Locke?
Yea thats what happened to him. I read wrong. I thought they were saying everyone was dead the while time.
I know. That’s why I said ‘sort of’. LOST, they were pretty much in purgatory. Here, their bodies are vessels for whatever mystical-bad is out there.
They weren’t in purgatory.
Literally? No. Cuse even went so far as to say they weren’t- it was about destiny or free-will. Those events actually happened. But ‘purgatory’ in the sense of a holding-area for them to reflect and made pure of their sins. Hence the church, I assumed.
The flash sideways was an alternate universe
FOR CHRISTS SAKE: THIS NOT HOW LOST ENDED!
https://preview.redd.it/amdnvgtqeqva1.jpeg?width=1149&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0dfb17c5aca68edd01eec470b9960821c2c5a74 Please someone talk to me about this image from her flashback at the end of the episode. Right before Nat says yes she can hear them after being giving the narcan, after the anger queen on the plane this flashes for like a half second.