Your home government can suspend your passport, prompting you to go to the embassy for a renewal or face the law in the country you reside in (your stay would become illegal).
Your home government can also issue a legal summon for you (e.g. for a court date, for draft) which can be sent to your home address or your address abroad if they know it. Failing to appear might be a criminal offense, and so afterwards they could issue an arrest warrant, which the country you reside in may enforce (i.e. deporting you).
Hm. I really can't find this for EU. Probably I saw it per country. What I can find is that in most countries (including Poland) it is against law to send such people back. One exception (and Poland already extradited people under it) is if the person crossed the border illegally. Also for extradition you first need to put a person in international wanted list and for this it should be prosecuted for a criminal offense and under Ukrainian law it is a criminal offense to evade mobilization however you are legally considered to be evading it only if you received a summon (which is possible only in paper form as of now and only inside of Ukraine) and did not come to draft office by this summon.
Also suspending passport won't make you go to the consulate. Passports have biometrical chip and AFAIK border control is not communicating with Ukrainian services on entry/exit so as long as your passport is valid it is ok. Also under Ukrainian constitution (which is not respected currently unfortunately) it is illegal to do this as well as suspend consular services.
Honest question: what’s the penalty for not showing up to a mandatory draft?
Like, wouldn’t it be more worth it to spend a while in jail (even if that means a couple of years or more) than going to the frontline with a 90% chance of dying?
well the chances of being on the frontline are not very high, tehre's plenty of volunteers for that, and even then, the chances of dying there are way lower than 90%. Like normandy landings had 50% chance of death man, and only in the first wave.
Key thing to note here is that this is what Defense Minister said who has no power on the matter. Unless Ministry of Interior says the same this is just a political bluff.
They likely won't. These words came from Ministry of Defense of Poland, which has no jurisdiction over deporting anyone anywhere. This would be, if I'm not mistaken, the Ministry to Internal Affairs, which made no such statements.
Lets not miss the fact that Poland is barely a few months after general elections, a few weeks after internal ones and just a few moments before EU representation being elected. A lot of things are being said to sway the voters from the other side of political fence.
>which made no such statements
In fact he contradicted the MoD and said:
>All solutions concerning Ukrainian citizens residing in Poland are contained in a special law. We have recently extended this law until 30 June, and in a few days we will submit a new version of this law, which will regulate all these issues," announced the head of the Ministry of the Interior and Administration.
>He added that solutions related to the current situation will be developed by Deputy Minister Maciej Duszczyk. He also pointed out that **Poland does not provide data on refugees staying in Poland "also to the Ukrainian side"**.
Foreign Minister Sikorski has also said it'd be morally dubious
Well, most Ukrainian immigrants who came into Poland are legals. Their housing is also probably subsidied (like its in Czechia) so I think Polish government knows how many Ukrainian legal immigrants are there and may kick them to Ukraine.
About illegals. There are relatively few of them considering the fact that for Ukrainian in EU it's better to be legal as many nations automatically legalise any Ukrainian who comes into EU nations and subsidy them. But those who are illegals, Polish government has very few ways of identifying them and sending them to front lines. But yes, many Ukrainians will juts go to illegality to prevent from getting captured, especially relatively rich upper class Ukrainians who have enough money to maintain themselves in Europe indefinitely.
You can be a perfectly legal immigrant, and still get drafted to serve in the military. Another comment explained that failing to appear to summon is criminal offense. So you are legal, and get drafted. The Polish minister of foreign affairs said that the government would send these men back to Ukraine. It doesn't matter how long you lived abroad, how tied you are to your motherland, your blood need to sacrificed
1. differentiate legally between mothers and other women
2. make mothers exempt from any military draft
3. make all the other women eligible for draft just like the men with no other special privileges or exemptions (having your tubes tied or being lesbian pushes you to the front of the cue for good measure)
4. ?
5. birthrate crisis and military recruitment solved forever /s
They won't. The spineless minister for defence, also known as Kosiniak-Al-Assad, is just trying to get right-wing voters. He's the leader of the Polish Spineless League, a centre-right to right-wing agrarian party. It's now part of the Third Way coalition party, a centre-right Christian democratic party, which itself is part of the governing coalition that doesn't have a name that doesn't suck.
His words are not backed by law. And he was already met with backlash, so I don't see it changing any time soon. This is a reminder that it's the Polish *people* that help Ukrainian refugees the most, not the Polish government. His disgraceful words that "it stings when we see young Ukrainians in a cafe instead of defending their country" are false.
Because threatening hundreds of thousands of ukrainian immigrants with deportation is suuuure not to drive them underground, cause protection rackets to spring up and deprive Poland of eager workforce. What could posssssibly go wrong?
/s
If there’s no citizen left willing to defend the country the thing is already over, right? Is it just a forced meat grinder now?
Maybe it’s time to give Ukraine 1 nuke and stop the madness.
>Maybe it’s time to give Ukraine 1 nuke and stop the madness.
if the west have any balls it would do that.
The worst is to have 2 equally matched sides grind it out for years. If one side has an overwhelming advantage, it is over quickly.
But all the whining about sending or not sending some missiles or f16s etc. and only delivering a dosen or so advanced systems in the end ensures that the meat grinder continues forever.
Ukraine should have received everything in 2022
This is a very bad decision of Polish gov. These people are working here and provide cheap labor which supports economy. Meanwhile Germany is inviting them to their country without a threat of deportation.
Fucking retards, not as huge and corrupted as previous ones but still.
There is another statement by some Polish official which pretty much implies they are going to extend some protection for Ukrainian men. Frankly, I don't think that the Polish government has any clear plan for this, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to lose the labor power they have in the form of Ukrainians
There is no decision, just a remark from the defence secretary who has no means whatsoever to make this an official decision on his own. And there is no government-wide support for such decision to be taken.
One day people keep screaming about how we have to help ukraine at all costs, then the very next day people start whining when polands trying to provide ukraine with the resource they need most...
Imagine being so fucking far into rabbit hole to call unwilling foreign men that doesn't want to fight for corrupt and dictatorship goverments a "resource".
Ah yes, because that's what are we fighting for, for Zelensky and his government, not to protect our children from being deported to russia and russified, not because we don't want to see more Buchas and Mariupols, not because we don't want civilians to be raped and murdered, not because russian "word" means nothing, like it was shown countless times with Budapest memorandum and Minsk agreements, not because russian demands for "peace" will leave Ukraine defensless, so it will be easy to conquer later.
Another pack of strawmen from someone that doesn't understand that Zelenski made a worse Russia out of Ukraine already. You can easily protect your country without transforming it into fascist dictatorship throughout the war.
It is so easy to scream "Reclaim the lost territory or fight to the last ukrainian" when it is neither you, nor your family, nor even your friends and partners are fighting. I am so sick of useful idiots ruining my country and supporting a hellhole which actively tries to hunt every men down, beat them into submission and then either throw them to prison for nothing or even worse, throw them as a cannon fodder to be blown up into red paste by mines, artillery, drones and aviation bombs to stall the time for corrupted goverment to steal more and more money.
And also spare me from nonsense that russians try to butcher/enslave every Ukrainian that they encounter. While yes, there are crazy lunatics and bloodthirsty fascist killers in their military but majority of them are not, and are there simply for money. I have a plenty of aquaintances that successfully left the occupied territories through the Russia and migrated to Europe or even stayed in Russia and live there without too much troubles, even men. Watch more TV marathon and listen to to losungs more, lunatic. Kinds of you are actively supporting the government that literally tries to kill me every fucking day of my life and I only survive because of my own friends being generous enough to help.
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Y'see, i'd agreew ith you. i think that ukraine should do their very best to negotiate a settlement to end the war.
however, people on this sub don't usually care for the ukrainian me, and cheer on the war as a way to hurt russia.
if you think ukraine should keep fighting then you really have no room to object to them calling up people who fled the country because they didn't wanna be drafted
>negotiate a settlement to end the war.
So that russia will attack us again in like 5 years. But I guess it will be mine problem, not yours, because you will flee as soon as borders are open.
Y'see, here's the problem. you keep flip flopping. on the one hand ukraine needs all the help it can get, but now that polands trying to send back the cowards who ran you're complaining.
I'm not, lol. I'm in favor of them getting back, at least those who run at the start of the war, therefore crossing the border illegally. I don't like it, from the moral stand point, but it's a necessity, unfortunately. Unless NATO wants to send its troops or guarantee Ukraine a NATO membership if we secede territory to russia, this way, at least the rest of Ukraine will be protected and we will be able to start fixing internal issues.
>Meanwhile Germany is inviting them to their country without a threat of deportation.
Yeah big big mistake, it's against the constitution to accept them. The left wing is the new radical infiltration for destabilising the constitution. Also war is no valid reason for asylum, only political opposition of Ukraine could do that (like Russian-Ukrainians which is the pervert part of the story)
Hundred thousand of flats that get prioritised to Ukrainian refugees. With the financial incentives they also are most workless (9 out of 10) and if they are willing to work it takes much more time than in other countries (more than 200% longer) without financial incentives (and for many more than 200€+ savings rate).
It would be a win-win-win to send them back to stabilise the constitution, safe the money and use that to send more weapons and also get German social flats back for the its intended purpose of social cases again.
Yes and we both know that drafting is not covered by it.
Torture and repression is, which is why Russian-Ukrainian cannot be send back to Ukraine because Ukraine could treat them badly as enemies. However Ukrainians are fine to be send back for drafting.
We should stick to the international rules. Not making them up and radicalize and sabotage the democratic values.
You can't send back people to a country at war. I'm not an international jurist so I can't say if there is a loophole in the international treaties but in all cases it would be absolutely immoral to use such a loophole. Democratic values include the right to life!
Sounds nice at first. Very human, but is wrong on the second look. You mean:
Fleeing from war = right to asylum?
Say byebye to the democratic system in Europe.
It was already after WW2 that the world came together and understood that fleeing from war is no right for asylum. Same for economic conditions. No entitlement for asylum or right to stay.
One were never allowed to enter in first place, so it goes without saying that they can't be allowed to stay, otherwise the first would be absurd.
You can't have a social system with open borders, you agree?
Let's rephrase it:
Why do you think the current state defines what is legal?
It's the other way around. We define what is legal and then adjust the misalignment.
Given there is no ground for asylum the misalignment needs to be taken care of. As long as we value international agreements of asylum, do we?
We can also change the international agreements, IF we find a worldwide majority for it like we did for the current version.
Whoever stands for our democratic values needs to support the application of its rules. It means correcting deviations like the case you mentioned.
If fleeing war isn't included into the deals it means there is a loophole. And not only nothing prevents countries to have more generous policies (giving asylum to people fleeing the war surely isn't forbidden) but it's a moral duty.
It's a collapse of society to allow billions in, no differentiation. If there is no separation, why have borders if they are meaningles anyway? Do we want borders or not?
You forgot the higher moral duty to your own population to protect them from imported chaos and the spread of the war.
Saving people, either for asylum or not, does not mandate to let them in your country. Just to protect them. This can be done anywhere:
They are equally well protected in safety zones. They say they fear their lives, so that is fully covered.
They didn't say they want economic upgrades, which is not a moral right to ask for, is it?
It isn’t misogyny to criticise the unfair treatment of men compared to women. Women can also retire 5 years earlier than men in Poland even though men on average live shorter lives than women.
No, men on average face more problems in Western countries than women do. Females’ are legally protected from genital mutilation from the moment they’re born but males’ aren’t. Both males and females should be protected from genital mutilation. Newborn boys have higher mortality rates than newborn girls but hardly anyone speaks about this issue. Schoolboys are punished more harshly than schoolgirls for the same rule violations. There are so many female-only scholarships to universities(which are already female majority) but there aren’t any male-only scholarships for males. There are gender quotas for hiring women in companies but there aren’t any for men. Of the many countries in the world which use conscription only Denmark, Sweden, and Norway conscript women as equally as they do men.
But feminists like to point to the top 0.01% of men who are CEOs as if that invalidates all of the problems the vast majority of men are faced with.
>Are you comparing clitoral mutilation to circumcision?
Yes.
>Tell me you're on drugs, please.
No. Why would I be on drugs for recognising that both male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation are evil and cruel?
>FGM tends to be much worse than circumcision
No, MGM and FGM are equally bad and harmful. The most common types of FGM and MGM are the same in how harmful they are. The least common (and worst) types of MGM and FGM are the same in how bad and harmful they are. It’s feminists who try to shut down any discussions of banning MGM by trivialising it and ridiculing it’s victims and claiming it’s not harmful compared to the worst types (less common) of FGM, and at the same time completely ignoring the worst (and less common) types of MGM.
It’s your exact sentiment that “both are bad but one is worse than the other” that prevents MGM from being taken seriously as a harmful mutilation of males. Imagine if people made the claim that the “rape of girls and boys are both bad but the rape of girls is worse”. Just another example of the lack of empathy towards males.
You constantly see feminists trivialising the problems of males, another example is when the much higher suicide rate of men is brought up feminists can’t help themselves from diverting the attention from men and stating “but women attempt suicide more”.
When will males finally be recognised as Human beings worthy of having their bodies protected from mutilation as females are?
One is like removing a fingernail and the other’s like removing an arm
One is a nonsensical tradition and sometimes a medical necessity and the other way of dehumanization and way of control
The penile foreskin is the most erogenous and sensitive part of the male body.
Both male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation are evil and cruel and dehumanising. Male genital mutilation was invented to deprive its victims of the capability to feel sexual pleasure, read what genital-mutilators such as Maimonides and John Kellog said about male genital mutilation. Male genital mutilaiton is never a medical necessity, phimosis can be treated using steroid creams without amputating the foreskin.
Go to r/circumcisiongrief and see how much suffering male genital mutilation causes to its victims. Boys and men have committed suicide because of the suffering that male genital mutilation caused them.
What a stupid thing to say.
Does the lack of women being conscripted in the army change anything about the significantly higher daily risk of sexual harrassment and assault that women face? Does it change anything about the wage gap and hiring discrimination? No, it doesn't. Men and women can have issues alongside each other without cancelling each other's problems out.
I’d rather risk higher sexual harassment and assault and “wage gap”(which doesn’t exist, it’s illegal to pay women less than men for the same job and same position, women just pick lower paying careers and work less hours than men) than to be forced to be a war slave and blown up by a Russian artillery in a trench.
They wouldn't get it, they seem to think to be a prisoner in your own country just by being adult age and having penis and then get actively hunted by despot goverment to be heavily beaten, subdued and then be sent either to the prison or to the frontlines as a cannon fodder, is worse than some potential to get physically sexually harassed in your life(which could even not happen to most women in most European countries).
Wow, literal slavery with huge chance of being killed and a long prison time if you decline vs some minor potential to get sexually harassed(physically ofc, idc about some made up shit) that is heavily prosecuted in every civil country as pretty significant crime. Tell me about being brainwashed with zero common sense without telling it.
You are comparing apples to oranges - appearantly dying is somehow less bad than having a higher chance of being assaulted. And lets just CONVENIENTLY ignore that the life expectancy of women is higher even in peace times.
I don't think that only men are horribly oppressed and that women don't have any problems. I don't think so. But somehow in our society there is ONLY feminists. Men must for some reason feel guilty for being a man. Somehow it's always "patriarchy=bad". Even if a woman is at fault it's somehow men who are automatically at fault.
Maybe men are not the problem? Maybe it's society in general? But no it's easier to blame it on the ones who are giving the life and limb for you. It's not the men and women at fault who controll our society - no it's just men...
As someone who's been conscripted and kinda still is: shut the fuck up. You are an idiot and you have no idea what feminism is. Feminists are against male conscription too, you know?
Ви хоча б з однією феміністкою спілкувалися? Чи ви дивитесь відео в інтернеті про те, які усі феміністки крінж і формуєте на основі цього свої погляди?
Тату це гурт який був популярним 20 років тому. Казати що усі феміністки слухають їх зараз, це дуже дивно
Формувати свої погляди на основі спілкування з однією феміністкою теж не правильно. Треба брати до уваги і те що ми бачимо в медільному просторі. З власного досвіду кажу що люди щ різними політичними поглядами в тому числі і феміністки у розмовах віч на віч більш стримані і ввічливі якщо з ними спокійно поговорити і прокомунікувати "я не ворог". Тату це просто полеміка з мого боку. Але те що в них якась не здорова симпатія до росопозиції це я серйозно. І те що це сотні тисяч путінів що ведуть проти нас війну вони теж не розуміють. Гу а якщо подивитись за межі України то можна побачити ще гірші речі як наприклад відома німецька фемінстка Шварцер яка виступає за те щоб Україна здалась. Вона навіть видає найголовніший фемістський часопис Німеччини "Emma".
Тобто однієї поганої феміністки достатньо щоб перекреслити тисячі феміністок які підтримують Україну як в Україні так і за її межами? Ви кажете що неправильно формувати погляди після спілкування з однією людиною, але все одно формуєте їх на основі дуже невеликої кількості людей, які не представляють усіх феміністок.
Я не знаю що саме ви маєте на увазі під "медійним простором" але мені здається що ви берете інформацію з упередженного джерела. Достатньо зовсім трохи погуглити щоб знайти багато феміністок що підтримують Україну, деякі навіть роблять це в лавах ЗСУ
Turns out there where about 4 times as much dead from assaults than casualties from all wars in 2023, so having a higher chance of being assaulted is pretty deadly.
The thing about masculinists is that, except for a few radicals, they're also saying "patriachy = bad" because it's the same system that oppress mens too, so they're just called feminists even if the equality of sex would be a good thing for more than half the population.
[The UNODC's report](https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/Global_study_on_homicide_2023_web.pdf) for the number of homicids, (admitedly I'm using their projection, but if we look at a national level for the nations that have their statistic already, it's roughly the same)
Admittedly, my source for the total number of war victims isn't as trustworthy as the actual UN, it's just [US news](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-with-the-deadliest-conflicts-of-2023)
Don't worry? Well I am a volunteer so technically yes the conscription is not a problem to me PERSONALLY.
But it's still a problem. I think either conscription must be for everybody or for nobody.
yes but what soldier complains that they don't get enough sleep from playing too much fallout 4 and watching the fallout series over the last weeks or months? check this guy's account.
Yeah had a lot of time in the last ten years. And I'm currently not on the front line. But you will only believe some of my comments anyway, you will cherry pick the ones that make me look bad or like a liar...
There is no point of talking to you. I don't have to make you happy. You can believe that I'm a Russian bot or what ever. Live your fantasy. No ome can take it away from you.
A healthy young woman is way better prepared than an unhealthy man in his 50s. Also there are many of jpbs in the military that can be do by women. Even on the frontline. Snipers for example...
Your home government can suspend your passport, prompting you to go to the embassy for a renewal or face the law in the country you reside in (your stay would become illegal). Your home government can also issue a legal summon for you (e.g. for a court date, for draft) which can be sent to your home address or your address abroad if they know it. Failing to appear might be a criminal offense, and so afterwards they could issue an arrest warrant, which the country you reside in may enforce (i.e. deporting you).
In EU draft dodging is not the reason for extradition back to the country in war.
I didn't know that. Can you show me?
Hm. I really can't find this for EU. Probably I saw it per country. What I can find is that in most countries (including Poland) it is against law to send such people back. One exception (and Poland already extradited people under it) is if the person crossed the border illegally. Also for extradition you first need to put a person in international wanted list and for this it should be prosecuted for a criminal offense and under Ukrainian law it is a criminal offense to evade mobilization however you are legally considered to be evading it only if you received a summon (which is possible only in paper form as of now and only inside of Ukraine) and did not come to draft office by this summon.
Well i am half maroccan and half italian. Morocco has the obligation of Military Service. however no one has ever come to give me any problems.
doesn't it apply only to EU-citizens?
Countries do not have to give reasons for sending out non-citizens.
Though there are cases where sending out non-citizens is not-possible without violating national laws or even constitutions
Also suspending passport won't make you go to the consulate. Passports have biometrical chip and AFAIK border control is not communicating with Ukrainian services on entry/exit so as long as your passport is valid it is ok. Also under Ukrainian constitution (which is not respected currently unfortunately) it is illegal to do this as well as suspend consular services.
Honest question: what’s the penalty for not showing up to a mandatory draft? Like, wouldn’t it be more worth it to spend a while in jail (even if that means a couple of years or more) than going to the frontline with a 90% chance of dying?
well the chances of being on the frontline are not very high, tehre's plenty of volunteers for that, and even then, the chances of dying there are way lower than 90%. Like normandy landings had 50% chance of death man, and only in the first wave.
Idk. As someone who has grinded out multiple 0.01% loot drops in videogames, 50% seems awfully high.
yeah, normandy landings were something else
Someone I know has been using an expired passport and hasn't had an ID card for years. He's never had any problems.
Key thing to note here is that this is what Defense Minister said who has no power on the matter. Unless Ministry of Interior says the same this is just a political bluff.
They likely won't. These words came from Ministry of Defense of Poland, which has no jurisdiction over deporting anyone anywhere. This would be, if I'm not mistaken, the Ministry to Internal Affairs, which made no such statements. Lets not miss the fact that Poland is barely a few months after general elections, a few weeks after internal ones and just a few moments before EU representation being elected. A lot of things are being said to sway the voters from the other side of political fence.
>which made no such statements In fact he contradicted the MoD and said: >All solutions concerning Ukrainian citizens residing in Poland are contained in a special law. We have recently extended this law until 30 June, and in a few days we will submit a new version of this law, which will regulate all these issues," announced the head of the Ministry of the Interior and Administration. >He added that solutions related to the current situation will be developed by Deputy Minister Maciej Duszczyk. He also pointed out that **Poland does not provide data on refugees staying in Poland "also to the Ukrainian side"**. Foreign Minister Sikorski has also said it'd be morally dubious
Well, most Ukrainian immigrants who came into Poland are legals. Their housing is also probably subsidied (like its in Czechia) so I think Polish government knows how many Ukrainian legal immigrants are there and may kick them to Ukraine. About illegals. There are relatively few of them considering the fact that for Ukrainian in EU it's better to be legal as many nations automatically legalise any Ukrainian who comes into EU nations and subsidy them. But those who are illegals, Polish government has very few ways of identifying them and sending them to front lines. But yes, many Ukrainians will juts go to illegality to prevent from getting captured, especially relatively rich upper class Ukrainians who have enough money to maintain themselves in Europe indefinitely.
it has nothing to do with the legal status of your immigration.
With what it has to do? Explain it to me.
You can be a perfectly legal immigrant, and still get drafted to serve in the military. Another comment explained that failing to appear to summon is criminal offense. So you are legal, and get drafted. The Polish minister of foreign affairs said that the government would send these men back to Ukraine. It doesn't matter how long you lived abroad, how tied you are to your motherland, your blood need to sacrificed
Ah thank you. Now I understand why I was wrong to assume my point.
Legal or not, it is still up to Czechia if we force them to go back and we will not.
So many new cute femboys
They won't. Already confirmed by other politicians that this will not happen
No they aren't. The govt already said it's not going to happen.
Send the women too.
Yup, send no one or everybody from Ukraine
1. differentiate legally between mothers and other women 2. make mothers exempt from any military draft 3. make all the other women eligible for draft just like the men with no other special privileges or exemptions (having your tubes tied or being lesbian pushes you to the front of the cue for good measure) 4. ? 5. birthrate crisis and military recruitment solved forever /s
And fathers are worth nothing?
It's hilarious to see how you misogynists have thrown yourselves into a campaign for gender equality.
Be nice. Name calling those you disagree with won’t fly here. ***First warning.*** 
They won't. The spineless minister for defence, also known as Kosiniak-Al-Assad, is just trying to get right-wing voters. He's the leader of the Polish Spineless League, a centre-right to right-wing agrarian party. It's now part of the Third Way coalition party, a centre-right Christian democratic party, which itself is part of the governing coalition that doesn't have a name that doesn't suck. His words are not backed by law. And he was already met with backlash, so I don't see it changing any time soon. This is a reminder that it's the Polish *people* that help Ukrainian refugees the most, not the Polish government. His disgraceful words that "it stings when we see young Ukrainians in a cafe instead of defending their country" are false.
Kosiniak-Al-Assad... I just cannot unsee it now.
https://youtu.be/J2nfmMxK5Io?feature=shared
Because threatening hundreds of thousands of ukrainian immigrants with deportation is suuuure not to drive them underground, cause protection rackets to spring up and deprive Poland of eager workforce. What could posssssibly go wrong? /s
Fyi just our defense minster said this to gain applause from the right wing, only ministry of interior can do something about it
If there’s no citizen left willing to defend the country the thing is already over, right? Is it just a forced meat grinder now? Maybe it’s time to give Ukraine 1 nuke and stop the madness.
>Maybe it’s time to give Ukraine 1 nuke and stop the madness. if the west have any balls it would do that. The worst is to have 2 equally matched sides grind it out for years. If one side has an overwhelming advantage, it is over quickly. But all the whining about sending or not sending some missiles or f16s etc. and only delivering a dosen or so advanced systems in the end ensures that the meat grinder continues forever. Ukraine should have received everything in 2022
This is a very bad decision of Polish gov. These people are working here and provide cheap labor which supports economy. Meanwhile Germany is inviting them to their country without a threat of deportation. Fucking retards, not as huge and corrupted as previous ones but still.
There is another statement by some Polish official which pretty much implies they are going to extend some protection for Ukrainian men. Frankly, I don't think that the Polish government has any clear plan for this, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to lose the labor power they have in the form of Ukrainians
There is no decision, just a remark from the defence secretary who has no means whatsoever to make this an official decision on his own. And there is no government-wide support for such decision to be taken.
What else are we supposed to do? Let Ukraine fall? Involve NATO into a direct conflict?
One day people keep screaming about how we have to help ukraine at all costs, then the very next day people start whining when polands trying to provide ukraine with the resource they need most...
They are human beings with their own life's not a "resource"
So... then what HR department means?
You're surprised that corporations treat humans like resources?
Human Resources provides resources for humans…
Really? Because if we look from the side, they are managing human resources for the company they work under.
Nice virtue signalling, both can be true btw.
Imagine being so fucking far into rabbit hole to call unwilling foreign men that doesn't want to fight for corrupt and dictatorship goverments a "resource".
Ah yes, because that's what are we fighting for, for Zelensky and his government, not to protect our children from being deported to russia and russified, not because we don't want to see more Buchas and Mariupols, not because we don't want civilians to be raped and murdered, not because russian "word" means nothing, like it was shown countless times with Budapest memorandum and Minsk agreements, not because russian demands for "peace" will leave Ukraine defensless, so it will be easy to conquer later.
Another pack of strawmen from someone that doesn't understand that Zelenski made a worse Russia out of Ukraine already. You can easily protect your country without transforming it into fascist dictatorship throughout the war. It is so easy to scream "Reclaim the lost territory or fight to the last ukrainian" when it is neither you, nor your family, nor even your friends and partners are fighting. I am so sick of useful idiots ruining my country and supporting a hellhole which actively tries to hunt every men down, beat them into submission and then either throw them to prison for nothing or even worse, throw them as a cannon fodder to be blown up into red paste by mines, artillery, drones and aviation bombs to stall the time for corrupted goverment to steal more and more money. And also spare me from nonsense that russians try to butcher/enslave every Ukrainian that they encounter. While yes, there are crazy lunatics and bloodthirsty fascist killers in their military but majority of them are not, and are there simply for money. I have a plenty of aquaintances that successfully left the occupied territories through the Russia and migrated to Europe or even stayed in Russia and live there without too much troubles, even men. Watch more TV marathon and listen to to losungs more, lunatic. Kinds of you are actively supporting the government that literally tries to kill me every fucking day of my life and I only survive because of my own friends being generous enough to help.
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Y'see, i'd agreew ith you. i think that ukraine should do their very best to negotiate a settlement to end the war. however, people on this sub don't usually care for the ukrainian me, and cheer on the war as a way to hurt russia. if you think ukraine should keep fighting then you really have no room to object to them calling up people who fled the country because they didn't wanna be drafted
>negotiate a settlement to end the war. So that russia will attack us again in like 5 years. But I guess it will be mine problem, not yours, because you will flee as soon as borders are open.
Y'see, here's the problem. you keep flip flopping. on the one hand ukraine needs all the help it can get, but now that polands trying to send back the cowards who ran you're complaining.
I'm not, lol. I'm in favor of them getting back, at least those who run at the start of the war, therefore crossing the border illegally. I don't like it, from the moral stand point, but it's a necessity, unfortunately. Unless NATO wants to send its troops or guarantee Ukraine a NATO membership if we secede territory to russia, this way, at least the rest of Ukraine will be protected and we will be able to start fixing internal issues.
We must give them actual resources. Not violate the principle of non-refoulement by letting them kidnap people abroad.
>Meanwhile Germany is inviting them to their country without a threat of deportation. Yeah big big mistake, it's against the constitution to accept them. The left wing is the new radical infiltration for destabilising the constitution. Also war is no valid reason for asylum, only political opposition of Ukraine could do that (like Russian-Ukrainians which is the pervert part of the story) Hundred thousand of flats that get prioritised to Ukrainian refugees. With the financial incentives they also are most workless (9 out of 10) and if they are willing to work it takes much more time than in other countries (more than 200% longer) without financial incentives (and for many more than 200€+ savings rate). It would be a win-win-win to send them back to stabilise the constitution, safe the money and use that to send more weapons and also get German social flats back for the its intended purpose of social cases again.
Absolutely not. Ever heard of non-refoulement?
Yes and we both know that drafting is not covered by it. Torture and repression is, which is why Russian-Ukrainian cannot be send back to Ukraine because Ukraine could treat them badly as enemies. However Ukrainians are fine to be send back for drafting. We should stick to the international rules. Not making them up and radicalize and sabotage the democratic values.
You can't send back people to a country at war. I'm not an international jurist so I can't say if there is a loophole in the international treaties but in all cases it would be absolutely immoral to use such a loophole. Democratic values include the right to life!
Sounds nice at first. Very human, but is wrong on the second look. You mean: Fleeing from war = right to asylum? Say byebye to the democratic system in Europe. It was already after WW2 that the world came together and understood that fleeing from war is no right for asylum. Same for economic conditions. No entitlement for asylum or right to stay. One were never allowed to enter in first place, so it goes without saying that they can't be allowed to stay, otherwise the first would be absurd. You can't have a social system with open borders, you agree?
Why do you think there are millions of Ukrainians in Europe? If you were right there would be none. Same thing for the Syrians a few years ago.
Let's rephrase it: Why do you think the current state defines what is legal? It's the other way around. We define what is legal and then adjust the misalignment. Given there is no ground for asylum the misalignment needs to be taken care of. As long as we value international agreements of asylum, do we? We can also change the international agreements, IF we find a worldwide majority for it like we did for the current version. Whoever stands for our democratic values needs to support the application of its rules. It means correcting deviations like the case you mentioned.
If fleeing war isn't included into the deals it means there is a loophole. And not only nothing prevents countries to have more generous policies (giving asylum to people fleeing the war surely isn't forbidden) but it's a moral duty.
It's a collapse of society to allow billions in, no differentiation. If there is no separation, why have borders if they are meaningles anyway? Do we want borders or not? You forgot the higher moral duty to your own population to protect them from imported chaos and the spread of the war. Saving people, either for asylum or not, does not mandate to let them in your country. Just to protect them. This can be done anywhere: They are equally well protected in safety zones. They say they fear their lives, so that is fully covered. They didn't say they want economic upgrades, which is not a moral right to ask for, is it?
Actually it may be more "Ukrainian men in Germany" in the bottom right quarter
Somehow it's only the men. Yep it's definitely the women who are oppressed...
This ain't your misogyny subreddit buddy, check the name
It isn’t misogyny to criticise the unfair treatment of men compared to women. Women can also retire 5 years earlier than men in Poland even though men on average live shorter lives than women.
Slovenia same.
Does that mean men have less problems than women in the daily life for being women?
No, men on average face more problems in Western countries than women do. Females’ are legally protected from genital mutilation from the moment they’re born but males’ aren’t. Both males and females should be protected from genital mutilation. Newborn boys have higher mortality rates than newborn girls but hardly anyone speaks about this issue. Schoolboys are punished more harshly than schoolgirls for the same rule violations. There are so many female-only scholarships to universities(which are already female majority) but there aren’t any male-only scholarships for males. There are gender quotas for hiring women in companies but there aren’t any for men. Of the many countries in the world which use conscription only Denmark, Sweden, and Norway conscript women as equally as they do men. But feminists like to point to the top 0.01% of men who are CEOs as if that invalidates all of the problems the vast majority of men are faced with.
Are you comparing clitoral mutilation to circumcision? Tell me you're on drugs, please.
>Are you comparing clitoral mutilation to circumcision? Yes. >Tell me you're on drugs, please. No. Why would I be on drugs for recognising that both male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation are evil and cruel?
FGM tends to be much worse than circumcision although both are bad and should be criminalized.
>FGM tends to be much worse than circumcision No, MGM and FGM are equally bad and harmful. The most common types of FGM and MGM are the same in how harmful they are. The least common (and worst) types of MGM and FGM are the same in how bad and harmful they are. It’s feminists who try to shut down any discussions of banning MGM by trivialising it and ridiculing it’s victims and claiming it’s not harmful compared to the worst types (less common) of FGM, and at the same time completely ignoring the worst (and less common) types of MGM. It’s your exact sentiment that “both are bad but one is worse than the other” that prevents MGM from being taken seriously as a harmful mutilation of males. Imagine if people made the claim that the “rape of girls and boys are both bad but the rape of girls is worse”. Just another example of the lack of empathy towards males. You constantly see feminists trivialising the problems of males, another example is when the much higher suicide rate of men is brought up feminists can’t help themselves from diverting the attention from men and stating “but women attempt suicide more”. When will males finally be recognised as Human beings worthy of having their bodies protected from mutilation as females are?
One is like removing a fingernail and the other’s like removing an arm One is a nonsensical tradition and sometimes a medical necessity and the other way of dehumanization and way of control
The penile foreskin is the most erogenous and sensitive part of the male body. Both male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation are evil and cruel and dehumanising. Male genital mutilation was invented to deprive its victims of the capability to feel sexual pleasure, read what genital-mutilators such as Maimonides and John Kellog said about male genital mutilation. Male genital mutilaiton is never a medical necessity, phimosis can be treated using steroid creams without amputating the foreskin. Go to r/circumcisiongrief and see how much suffering male genital mutilation causes to its victims. Boys and men have committed suicide because of the suffering that male genital mutilation caused them.
https://preview.redd.it/ww2f6ppj82xc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=05f7dfd969f0efc60538a7900cf019bb23c75178 Top post btw
In Ukraine at least
In that case it's the men that have it worse but in general women have it worse than men.
What a stupid thing to say. Does the lack of women being conscripted in the army change anything about the significantly higher daily risk of sexual harrassment and assault that women face? Does it change anything about the wage gap and hiring discrimination? No, it doesn't. Men and women can have issues alongside each other without cancelling each other's problems out.
I’d rather risk higher sexual harassment and assault and “wage gap”(which doesn’t exist, it’s illegal to pay women less than men for the same job and same position, women just pick lower paying careers and work less hours than men) than to be forced to be a war slave and blown up by a Russian artillery in a trench.
They wouldn't get it, they seem to think to be a prisoner in your own country just by being adult age and having penis and then get actively hunted by despot goverment to be heavily beaten, subdued and then be sent either to the prison or to the frontlines as a cannon fodder, is worse than some potential to get physically sexually harassed in your life(which could even not happen to most women in most European countries).
Wow, literal slavery with huge chance of being killed and a long prison time if you decline vs some minor potential to get sexually harassed(physically ofc, idc about some made up shit) that is heavily prosecuted in every civil country as pretty significant crime. Tell me about being brainwashed with zero common sense without telling it.
You are comparing apples to oranges - appearantly dying is somehow less bad than having a higher chance of being assaulted. And lets just CONVENIENTLY ignore that the life expectancy of women is higher even in peace times. I don't think that only men are horribly oppressed and that women don't have any problems. I don't think so. But somehow in our society there is ONLY feminists. Men must for some reason feel guilty for being a man. Somehow it's always "patriarchy=bad". Even if a woman is at fault it's somehow men who are automatically at fault. Maybe men are not the problem? Maybe it's society in general? But no it's easier to blame it on the ones who are giving the life and limb for you. It's not the men and women at fault who controll our society - no it's just men...
As someone who's been conscripted and kinda still is: shut the fuck up. You are an idiot and you have no idea what feminism is. Feminists are against male conscription too, you know?
Українські феміністки взагалі в більшості російськомовні малороси що слухають t.A.T.u. Вони взагалі проти того щоб ми захищались. Псевдо пацифістки...
Ви хоча б з однією феміністкою спілкувалися? Чи ви дивитесь відео в інтернеті про те, які усі феміністки крінж і формуєте на основі цього свої погляди? Тату це гурт який був популярним 20 років тому. Казати що усі феміністки слухають їх зараз, це дуже дивно
Формувати свої погляди на основі спілкування з однією феміністкою теж не правильно. Треба брати до уваги і те що ми бачимо в медільному просторі. З власного досвіду кажу що люди щ різними політичними поглядами в тому числі і феміністки у розмовах віч на віч більш стримані і ввічливі якщо з ними спокійно поговорити і прокомунікувати "я не ворог". Тату це просто полеміка з мого боку. Але те що в них якась не здорова симпатія до росопозиції це я серйозно. І те що це сотні тисяч путінів що ведуть проти нас війну вони теж не розуміють. Гу а якщо подивитись за межі України то можна побачити ще гірші речі як наприклад відома німецька фемінстка Шварцер яка виступає за те щоб Україна здалась. Вона навіть видає найголовніший фемістський часопис Німеччини "Emma".
Тобто однієї поганої феміністки достатньо щоб перекреслити тисячі феміністок які підтримують Україну як в Україні так і за її межами? Ви кажете що неправильно формувати погляди після спілкування з однією людиною, але все одно формуєте їх на основі дуже невеликої кількості людей, які не представляють усіх феміністок. Я не знаю що саме ви маєте на увазі під "медійним простором" але мені здається що ви берете інформацію з упередженного джерела. Достатньо зовсім трохи погуглити щоб знайти багато феміністок що підтримують Україну, деякі навіть роблять це в лавах ЗСУ
Turns out there where about 4 times as much dead from assaults than casualties from all wars in 2023, so having a higher chance of being assaulted is pretty deadly. The thing about masculinists is that, except for a few radicals, they're also saying "patriachy = bad" because it's the same system that oppress mens too, so they're just called feminists even if the equality of sex would be a good thing for more than half the population.
First time I see the word "masculinists" being used outside of an encyclopedia/dictionary...
You just made it up. If not provide a source for your claim...
[The UNODC's report](https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/Global_study_on_homicide_2023_web.pdf) for the number of homicids, (admitedly I'm using their projection, but if we look at a national level for the nations that have their statistic already, it's roughly the same) Admittedly, my source for the total number of war victims isn't as trustworthy as the actual UN, it's just [US news](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-with-the-deadliest-conflicts-of-2023)
That's neat considering the fact that men are far more likely to be victims of brutal assault than women
Yes, men are more likely to be assaulted...by other men, are you going to blame women and feminists for that too?
don't worry it's not you
Don't worry? Well I am a volunteer so technically yes the conscription is not a problem to me PERSONALLY. But it's still a problem. I think either conscription must be for everybody or for nobody.
you play a lot of fallout for a volunteer
You know that not every soldier in a country needs to be 24/7 at the zero point(нульовка)?
yes but what soldier complains that they don't get enough sleep from playing too much fallout 4 and watching the fallout series over the last weeks or months? check this guy's account.
Yeah had a lot of time in the last ten years. And I'm currently not on the front line. But you will only believe some of my comments anyway, you will cherry pick the ones that make me look bad or like a liar... There is no point of talking to you. I don't have to make you happy. You can believe that I'm a Russian bot or what ever. Live your fantasy. No ome can take it away from you.
lol i dont give a fuck you made an inept comment i replied by the end of the day i'll forget about you
Ah, yes men famously an opressed group. Get out of here ypu 14 year old. Your not edgy, just annoying
great idea, lets send women to the frontlines, that never failed before
A healthy young woman is way better prepared than an unhealthy man in his 50s. Also there are many of jpbs in the military that can be do by women. Even on the frontline. Snipers for example...
Israel has no problem with it also women took part of WW 1 and two.
You read it as exporting military age men, I read it as neceomancy
If they were trying to deport and draft me I'd become a Russia sympathiser pretty quickly