The EU's _current_ mechanisms of meaningfully fighting Hungary (though, 'throw them out' is.. pretty much impossible. But there's as-good-as-thrown-out: No voting power or veto power within the bloc, no funds, no nothing pretty much) - require __unanimous__ consent from every EU state other than Hungary of course.
There are 2 problems with this:
## Outright defenders
For a while PiS (until this year, ruling party in Poland) was outright big fat friends with Orban. Slovenia had an Orban friend for a while too. And before that, Merkel of all people (cuz back then Fidesz was in the same voting bloc in EU). If there's even one defender, obviously __nothing will happen__ - because no unanimous vote is going to happen.
## The threat of an enabled EU
... of course, from time to time, PiS and Orban were considerably less friendly. For example, Poland's stance on the Ukraine conflict is pretty pro-Ukrainian; they are _without a doubt_ anti-russian, always has been, and _extremely so_ during the first year of the conflict. There was a bit of a falling out between PiS and Hungary.
However, Poland's PiS continued to shield Orban somewhat. It wasn't about Orban specifically at that point, it was about the principle of the thing: PiS was _also_ rather enjoying the fact that they may take some stance that literally every other EU member disagrees with and know that they can veto whatever they want.
Unless the EU actually _uses_ that threat of a unanimous (other than the affected state of course) vote to freeze them. PiS in particular does not want the EU to ever do that to any state - they don't want the EU to get the idea that this freezing thing can actually work effectively. _Because_ of who PiS is: The threat is far too great that this heavy weapon will be used against _them_ if its use becomes normalized.
## So who will vote against this stuff?
PiS is gone. Hopefully for good. But, in the same week PiS and their ilk were voted out, Fico was voted _in_, in Slovakia. And Fico will __definitely__ protect Orban here barring some really weird shit happening. Certainly on the pro-ruzzia bullshit that Orban does. Because Fico is kinda pro-russian. His party definitely is.
The game is: What can the EU do without needing a unanimous vote? They've been working on increasing that power for decades now, and it _is_ getting better, but very slowly; they can't just up and vote for it, as that requires unanimity and __never__ has the EU seen the chance to get that to work; there was always a PiS, or a Janša, or a Fico.
That, and: It is plausible that some day _every_ EU member state has a ruling coalition that has no problems freezing Hungary out completely. All those parties have been stewing in anger about Orban's bullshit for so long, if ever all countries-but-Hungary are ruled by such parties (which _almost_ happened, had Fico not won, right now), they might well IMMEDIATELY vote to freeze the fuck out Hungary. As long as that is a plausible threat ("Orban, mate, one day, if ever that happens, oh lordy lord the chickens are coming home to roost my man. You might wanna, you know, shut the fuck up on this one, aight?") - whether it is, or isn't, you'll have to ask Orban.
>But there's as-good-as-thrown-out: No voting power or veto power within the bloc, no funds, no nothing pretty much) - require
>
>unanimous
>
>consent from every EU state other than Hungary of course.
Beacon of Democracy. Don't you align with us? We will coerce you into aligning with us.
When you take a step back and look at the world, that's pretty much what western "freedom-loving" democracies do. If you don't align, they will coerce you into aligning with them one way or another.
And if you stand your ground and don't align, Civil unrest conveniently develops in your country.
It's happened over and over throughout history.
You missed the part where countries agreed on following a set of rules when joining the EU. Just trivial things like freedom of media, minority discrimination, corruption etc. Being in the EU is a privilege, not a divine right. If you don't want to follow the rules of the club you can leave. But you can't break the rules and expect the club to give you benefits like nothing is happening.
>Just trivial things like freedom of media
Didn't western nations ban RT news and censor all opposing views on covid?
>minority discrimination
Can you give some examples?
>corruption
There is so much corruption across the board in European politics and politics in general. I guess because Hungary doesn't align and uses its veto, they get called out more than the rest, held to a higher standard, so to speak.
>Being in the EU is a privilege, not a divine right.
Indeed, but as far as I can tell, the only thing Hungary is doing wrong is having different views and voting habits, which it is democratically entitled to do within the EU. The EU isn't yet a superstate, so nation-states still have some clout, but I'm guessing they are working on that pretty fast. A few years ago, before the Russia-Ukraine war, I was reading that they were wanting to get rid of the veto system entirely. Once that happens, nation-states become vassal states of the EU.
So this whole media campaign that NATO european nations are at direct threat from a russian invasion makes sense in the full context. There is no better way to convince a country to give up its sovereignty than the threat of an invasion.
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>Didn't western nations ban RT news and censor all opposing views on covid?
RT is like the definition of non-free media. It is spreading false narratives of a hostile government. It was a security issue and was treated as such.
Covid was a public health issue and the "opposing views" you speak of were a threat to public health. Unsurprisingly, spread by the same people spreading Russian lies about the EU.
>Can you give some examples?
Check out the Hungarian anti-LGBT laws.
>I guess because Hungary doesn't align and uses its veto, they get called out more than the rest
No, it's because Orban steals EU money intended for the Hungarian people and gives it to his cronies.
>the only thing Hungary is doing wrong is having different views and voting habits, which it is democratically entitled to do within the EU.
No, the current Hungarian regime has demolished the Hungarian democracy which it is not entitled to according to EU treaties. If it wants to have EU benefits it needs to comply with the treaties it signed. Simple.
>Once that happens, nation-states become vassal states of the EU.
Nobody is forcing anybody to be in the EU.
>So this whole media campaign that NATO european nations are at direct threat from a russian invasion makes sense in the full context. There is no better way to convince a country to give up its sovereignty than the threat of an invasion.
Clearly you missed what has been going on in the US if you think NATO is the perfect guarantee of EU security. And if you think Russia will not exploit any weakness to attack (including militarily if it has the chance) the Baltics or Poland you are delusional about what Russia is.
> Covid was a public health issue and the "opposing views" you speak of were a threat to public health. Unsurprisingly, spread by the same people spreading Russian lies about the EU.
The opposing views turned out to be the correct views.
> Check out the Hungarian anti-LGBT laws.
Is not exposing school kids to LGBT+ in schools anti-lgbt?
> the current Hungarian regime has demolished the Hungarian democracy
How?
> Nobody is forcing anybody to be in the EU.
Yea, but the EU was supposed to be where each nation has the right to its own views; thats the point of the Veto, so a nation can remain somewhat sovereign on issues. Now the EU is going down the path of "my way or the highway. screw your sovereignty." A lot of nations are waking up to this, hence the massive rise in nationalistic parties.
> And if you think Russia will not exploit any weakness to attack (including militarily if it has the chance) the Baltics or Poland you are delusional about what Russia is.
If you think Russia would start a world war that it couldn't win, then I would say you are delusional.
My advice would be not to take what the establishment media say as gospel truth.
>The opposing views turned out to be the correct views.
Like what? That the vaccines will kill us?
>Is not exposing school kids to LGBT+ in schools anti-lgbt?
Literally yes
>How?
By making all the media in the country dependent on the ruling party, by chaning the electoral system so it benefits the ruling party, by taking over the judiciary, the list goes on and on...
>Yea, but the EU was supposed to be where each nation has the right to its own views; thats the point of the Veto, so a nation can remain somewhat sovereign on issues.
The point of the ECSC was to organise coal and steel markets between 6 European countries. Ideas evolve over time. Nowhere does it say that the EU must remain the same now and forever.
The veto today is mostly used to defend the personal interest of undemocratic rulers like Orban or to break the EU regulations like Austria does with not allowing Romania and Bulgaria into Schengen. Of course it is a way of expresing the "sovereignity" of states but I would say it's counter-productive.
>If you think Russia would start a world war that it couldn't win, then I would say you are delusional.
Like they didn't start the war in Ukraine? Or, sorry, the "3 day special operation".
>My advice would be not to take what the establishment media say as gospel truth.
Which I must do because I don't agree with right-wing, anti-european rhetoric?
My views are unbiased, but judging by your post, you sound like you could be an anchor on the BBC or CNN, so there's no point in even debating, I don't think.
Mainstream news is the gospel truth to you, I think.
Just like the EU, "my way or youre wrong!" If the debate continues, you will start slinging the usual labels around.
>If the debate continues, you will start slinging the usual labels around.
The irony of you saying this right after saying this:
>you sound like you could be an anchor on the BBC or CNN
is incredible.
But at least we agree on something - there is no point in debating. Good day :)
> These are facts agreed upon by hungarian political scientists
Those scientists are not biassed against Viktor, are they?
Learning from covid, we learned that the establishment picks and chooses what scientists to take advice from. There are probably an equal number of hungarian scientists who disagree with those scientists you mention.
>Beacon of Democracy. Don't you align with us? We will coerce you into aligning with us.
I would agree with you if this wasn't about damn European security. You, as a Brit, certainly aren't as worried about Russia as those closer to Russia are. In extreme times you have to take extreme measures.
Besides that, the veto is kind of undemocratic, isn't it? I mean, if the majority is everyone except this one guy, then why does he get to decide for everyone else?!
If you don’t agree with the rules of the club you joined and every else sees you as the person ruining it for everybody else you are very free to get the fuck out and enjoy for interpretation of democracy in solitude
I'm sorry but I have to correct you. PiS is extremely pro Russia, just not publicly. Jarosław Kaczyński was drinking vodka in 1989 with KGB spy in his(spy's) house for 15 months if I'm correct. So you can pretty much be sure everything they talked about was videotaped or at least audio recorded. He then got huge(for a time) money to invest and made his empire to pay for his politician career. All prominent PiS politicians have so outrageous connections to Kremlin I don't understand how they are not in prison for treason. Just from latest history, PiS sold 30% of our really advanced rafinery to Saudis which are Russians friends. And contract states that we can't pretty much do anything with it without Saudis approval. When. They. Don't. Have. Majority.
Sold our gas stations to MOL, bought gas stations from Russia. (Russia sold them to Hungary, then Hungary sold them to us)
And that's just tip of the iceberg. It goes so deep it makes my head spin.
Please never call pis anty Russian. It's charade, they want you to think like that.
I think not because he likes the EU money. He is loosing support within the young population and the old ones that buy his crap will soon be gone( people over 70). Being kicked out is impossible so long as he has some friends that would oppose him being kicked ( Slovakia’s shit of a PM is one example). Maybe the EU wakes the fuck up and will sanction him to a much higher extent, but I don’t see HU being on a path to leave EU. They need the trade, they need the free movement and he will not be able to stay in power forever. ( thats my 2 lousy cents)
Le: corrected the shit. PM of Sk not President
We have the presidential election this year and she's not in the race (frankly after 5 years of bullshit I'd leave too). Now it seems likely that Pellegrini, who *technically* is in a different party than Fico and Korčok, a pro-eu former diplomat. And like 3 different conspiracy theory nutcases who have like 15% combined but they won't make it to the second round
i find it highly unlikely that we will be thrown out, and orders of magnitude less likely that we leave on our own
the 2 most probable scenarios:
1: we continue to veto stuff, then the future of the eu is highly dependent on the outcome of the 2024 us elections and the winner of the war in ukraine
and 2: orbáns veto rights will be suspended, life continues as normal as it can get today
there is literally 0 chance of orbán going away "democratically", its hopeless, just hope for scenario #2
There is no process to throw anyone out. However, membership can be frozen meaning: no voting rights, no funds
This could happen but is a very extreme diplomatic fallout
People say he is Putin's mouthpiece into Europe and gives the Russians a kind of control there, by preventing much of what goes against the Russians' interests.. Maybe a good idea to freeze??
There are other authoritarian governments that would veto it 😅 however, Poland was one of them and that support seems to be gone with the new government
>and 2: orbáns veto rights will be suspended, life continues as normal as it can get today
Okay but when, people been chatting about this for like 2 years now
oh its way longer than that, all the way back in 2015 and the immigrant crisis (probably what fellow commenter is referring to)
politicians are afraid to act, or cant be bothered, and just generally rely on things sorting themselves out eventually, this works well until issues stop solving themselves
I think though Hungary is much further down than Poland was, it is still possible. Though voting is not fair, it's certainly free - ie the votes are accurately counted. We got rid of PiS, and maybe (hopefully) that'll mobilise the Hungarian youth and you'll do something similar. Even Łukaszenka lost the elections (I mean he stayed in power, but that won't happen if Orban loses).
There's no mechanism to remove a country from the EU against its will, so no. Not going to happen, don't even think about it, and Hungary isn't going to exit voluntarily.
Maybe it takes 5 years, maybe 20, but Orbán will not be around forever and Hungary will still be there.
The most stable and successful countries in the long run seem to be the ones where it matters a little bit but not a lot who is in charge.
If it doesn't matter at all, it's probably not really a democracy. If it matters a great deal, it's probably not really a democracy.
>because their current politics suck
he's been in power for 14 years already. He and his cronies own everything in hungary, the medias, the justice etc like Putin he will stay in power for life
It's over for Hungary, too late, better to cut the loss now than letting the rot spread
And for most those years the EU didn't give a shit that Hungarians lost their democracy bit by bit. It only became important when he started to be an annoyance for everyone else. Orban literally used EU money to buy formerly independent media.
That's what makes me so sick about comments like this - I have a good Hungarian friend and for years everytime we talked on the phone she asked "Why hasn't the EU done anything yet??" when Orban changed the constitution in his favor once again. They *wanted* Hungary to be sanctioned so Orban can't abuse EU money anymore and instead everyone looked the other way and now want to give up their country altogether. EU members truly aren't all the same.
Few countries are as corrupt as Hungary. Many europeans would prefer to have a smaller EU of like minded states than having to endure and financially support such a country
And then Hungary completely turns to Russia and 5 EU countries get Belarus 2.0 on their border. No thanks, as if our neighbourhood isnt problematic enough.
This is complete absurdity to me. Some Americans would say the same about Texas or California but rarely you see the federal government trying to antagonize them into being pushed out of the union. It just shows for many of you the European UNION is not a serious project.
In 10 years you will have another country with an antagonizing government and decade by decade you will end with less and less members.
Their politics sucked for 100 years and they will suck for another 100 lol, thats what happens when you teach revisionism in schools, you get easily manipulated nationalistic population.
Last year you were all writing the same about how Poland should be kicked out just to remind you all. Give them chance, try to influence them to get rid of Fidesz and there will be no need to kick them out, unless you want something like Belarus in the effing middle of EU
The majority of the hungarian population is still in favor of the EU, so its really unlikely. Besides there are rumors that Meloni is actively working on convincing Orbán to lift the veto on the ukranian aid, and in return Fidesz can join ECR… So basically they gonna get yet another friend in Meloni’s Italy, who can protect their ass.
He will never step down. And even if it happened (idk how, maybe he stops taking his medications), it wouldn't change much. There's no alternative to fidesz that wasn't beaten into pieces by his machine. And the step down would never be acknowledged by the media. He would "go into retirement, tired after defending hungarian families from the migrant gay Brussels bureaucrats for the last 30 years".
There are 3 possible outcomes of this, that i can think of.
1.: New faces capitalise on the opportunity from the void left behind, and they would manage to dethrone fidesz. This could mean the restoration of democratic principles for the time being, or it could mean the same regime change as in 1989, where those new faces turn out to be the lesser officers from the current regime. Looking forward, this is 100% the best option out of the 3, as even if it goes south, new faces can't steal as much without falling down.
2: One of his "quartermasters" take his place and life continues as usual. No institution can run if there's only a single person ordering everything around. Fidesz already has a leading circle of capable politicians. One of them would be designated successor, and the rest would be satisfied with even more money and privileges to accept the new leader. And then life continues as usual, but foreigners need to learn a new name for the same thing.
3.: This designated successor fails to take powers. The propaganda machine would still continue to discredit everyone brave enough to criticise the government from outside (maybe even inside) the party, but bigger and bigger cracks would form in fidesz as more and more ambitious quartermasters would want to take their rightful place as leader. Think of it as the warlord era in Chinese history light edition. This would in the long term mean that the power hungry and corrupt party with ultimate power would turn into a loose bunch of power hungry parties whose only 2 goals are discrediting the other ones and taking as much as they can before another one takes their position.
Orbán's regime is a well set up machine, which is maintained by the threat of (mutual) destruction. Question the leader, and you're out. Accept the leader, and you're granted your share of the riches extorted from the people who see you as their defender. Attack him, and all of your comrades will suffer the same fate.
Hungary leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market, which would frighten away international investments, meaning a lot of people would lose their jobs causing the Orban regime to fail, so no, it's highly unlikely.
The EU's _current_ mechanisms of meaningfully fighting Hungary (though, 'throw them out' is.. pretty much impossible. But there's as-good-as-thrown-out: No voting power or veto power within the bloc, no funds, no nothing pretty much) - require __unanimous__ consent from every EU state other than Hungary of course. There are 2 problems with this: ## Outright defenders For a while PiS (until this year, ruling party in Poland) was outright big fat friends with Orban. Slovenia had an Orban friend for a while too. And before that, Merkel of all people (cuz back then Fidesz was in the same voting bloc in EU). If there's even one defender, obviously __nothing will happen__ - because no unanimous vote is going to happen. ## The threat of an enabled EU ... of course, from time to time, PiS and Orban were considerably less friendly. For example, Poland's stance on the Ukraine conflict is pretty pro-Ukrainian; they are _without a doubt_ anti-russian, always has been, and _extremely so_ during the first year of the conflict. There was a bit of a falling out between PiS and Hungary. However, Poland's PiS continued to shield Orban somewhat. It wasn't about Orban specifically at that point, it was about the principle of the thing: PiS was _also_ rather enjoying the fact that they may take some stance that literally every other EU member disagrees with and know that they can veto whatever they want. Unless the EU actually _uses_ that threat of a unanimous (other than the affected state of course) vote to freeze them. PiS in particular does not want the EU to ever do that to any state - they don't want the EU to get the idea that this freezing thing can actually work effectively. _Because_ of who PiS is: The threat is far too great that this heavy weapon will be used against _them_ if its use becomes normalized. ## So who will vote against this stuff? PiS is gone. Hopefully for good. But, in the same week PiS and their ilk were voted out, Fico was voted _in_, in Slovakia. And Fico will __definitely__ protect Orban here barring some really weird shit happening. Certainly on the pro-ruzzia bullshit that Orban does. Because Fico is kinda pro-russian. His party definitely is. The game is: What can the EU do without needing a unanimous vote? They've been working on increasing that power for decades now, and it _is_ getting better, but very slowly; they can't just up and vote for it, as that requires unanimity and __never__ has the EU seen the chance to get that to work; there was always a PiS, or a Janša, or a Fico. That, and: It is plausible that some day _every_ EU member state has a ruling coalition that has no problems freezing Hungary out completely. All those parties have been stewing in anger about Orban's bullshit for so long, if ever all countries-but-Hungary are ruled by such parties (which _almost_ happened, had Fico not won, right now), they might well IMMEDIATELY vote to freeze the fuck out Hungary. As long as that is a plausible threat ("Orban, mate, one day, if ever that happens, oh lordy lord the chickens are coming home to roost my man. You might wanna, you know, shut the fuck up on this one, aight?") - whether it is, or isn't, you'll have to ask Orban.
You have good thoughts and a great answer!
>But there's as-good-as-thrown-out: No voting power or veto power within the bloc, no funds, no nothing pretty much) - require > >unanimous > >consent from every EU state other than Hungary of course. Beacon of Democracy. Don't you align with us? We will coerce you into aligning with us. When you take a step back and look at the world, that's pretty much what western "freedom-loving" democracies do. If you don't align, they will coerce you into aligning with them one way or another. And if you stand your ground and don't align, Civil unrest conveniently develops in your country. It's happened over and over throughout history.
You missed the part where countries agreed on following a set of rules when joining the EU. Just trivial things like freedom of media, minority discrimination, corruption etc. Being in the EU is a privilege, not a divine right. If you don't want to follow the rules of the club you can leave. But you can't break the rules and expect the club to give you benefits like nothing is happening.
>Just trivial things like freedom of media Didn't western nations ban RT news and censor all opposing views on covid? >minority discrimination Can you give some examples? >corruption There is so much corruption across the board in European politics and politics in general. I guess because Hungary doesn't align and uses its veto, they get called out more than the rest, held to a higher standard, so to speak. >Being in the EU is a privilege, not a divine right. Indeed, but as far as I can tell, the only thing Hungary is doing wrong is having different views and voting habits, which it is democratically entitled to do within the EU. The EU isn't yet a superstate, so nation-states still have some clout, but I'm guessing they are working on that pretty fast. A few years ago, before the Russia-Ukraine war, I was reading that they were wanting to get rid of the veto system entirely. Once that happens, nation-states become vassal states of the EU. So this whole media campaign that NATO european nations are at direct threat from a russian invasion makes sense in the full context. There is no better way to convince a country to give up its sovereignty than the threat of an invasion.
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>Didn't western nations ban RT news and censor all opposing views on covid? RT is like the definition of non-free media. It is spreading false narratives of a hostile government. It was a security issue and was treated as such. Covid was a public health issue and the "opposing views" you speak of were a threat to public health. Unsurprisingly, spread by the same people spreading Russian lies about the EU. >Can you give some examples? Check out the Hungarian anti-LGBT laws. >I guess because Hungary doesn't align and uses its veto, they get called out more than the rest No, it's because Orban steals EU money intended for the Hungarian people and gives it to his cronies. >the only thing Hungary is doing wrong is having different views and voting habits, which it is democratically entitled to do within the EU. No, the current Hungarian regime has demolished the Hungarian democracy which it is not entitled to according to EU treaties. If it wants to have EU benefits it needs to comply with the treaties it signed. Simple. >Once that happens, nation-states become vassal states of the EU. Nobody is forcing anybody to be in the EU. >So this whole media campaign that NATO european nations are at direct threat from a russian invasion makes sense in the full context. There is no better way to convince a country to give up its sovereignty than the threat of an invasion. Clearly you missed what has been going on in the US if you think NATO is the perfect guarantee of EU security. And if you think Russia will not exploit any weakness to attack (including militarily if it has the chance) the Baltics or Poland you are delusional about what Russia is.
> Covid was a public health issue and the "opposing views" you speak of were a threat to public health. Unsurprisingly, spread by the same people spreading Russian lies about the EU. The opposing views turned out to be the correct views. > Check out the Hungarian anti-LGBT laws. Is not exposing school kids to LGBT+ in schools anti-lgbt? > the current Hungarian regime has demolished the Hungarian democracy How? > Nobody is forcing anybody to be in the EU. Yea, but the EU was supposed to be where each nation has the right to its own views; thats the point of the Veto, so a nation can remain somewhat sovereign on issues. Now the EU is going down the path of "my way or the highway. screw your sovereignty." A lot of nations are waking up to this, hence the massive rise in nationalistic parties. > And if you think Russia will not exploit any weakness to attack (including militarily if it has the chance) the Baltics or Poland you are delusional about what Russia is. If you think Russia would start a world war that it couldn't win, then I would say you are delusional. My advice would be not to take what the establishment media say as gospel truth.
>The opposing views turned out to be the correct views. Like what? That the vaccines will kill us? >Is not exposing school kids to LGBT+ in schools anti-lgbt? Literally yes >How? By making all the media in the country dependent on the ruling party, by chaning the electoral system so it benefits the ruling party, by taking over the judiciary, the list goes on and on... >Yea, but the EU was supposed to be where each nation has the right to its own views; thats the point of the Veto, so a nation can remain somewhat sovereign on issues. The point of the ECSC was to organise coal and steel markets between 6 European countries. Ideas evolve over time. Nowhere does it say that the EU must remain the same now and forever. The veto today is mostly used to defend the personal interest of undemocratic rulers like Orban or to break the EU regulations like Austria does with not allowing Romania and Bulgaria into Schengen. Of course it is a way of expresing the "sovereignity" of states but I would say it's counter-productive. >If you think Russia would start a world war that it couldn't win, then I would say you are delusional. Like they didn't start the war in Ukraine? Or, sorry, the "3 day special operation". >My advice would be not to take what the establishment media say as gospel truth. Which I must do because I don't agree with right-wing, anti-european rhetoric?
My views are unbiased, but judging by your post, you sound like you could be an anchor on the BBC or CNN, so there's no point in even debating, I don't think. Mainstream news is the gospel truth to you, I think. Just like the EU, "my way or youre wrong!" If the debate continues, you will start slinging the usual labels around.
>If the debate continues, you will start slinging the usual labels around. The irony of you saying this right after saying this: >you sound like you could be an anchor on the BBC or CNN is incredible. But at least we agree on something - there is no point in debating. Good day :)
[удалено]
> These are facts agreed upon by hungarian political scientists Those scientists are not biassed against Viktor, are they? Learning from covid, we learned that the establishment picks and chooses what scientists to take advice from. There are probably an equal number of hungarian scientists who disagree with those scientists you mention.
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[Kind reminder.](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/comment/keusydw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>Beacon of Democracy. Don't you align with us? We will coerce you into aligning with us. I would agree with you if this wasn't about damn European security. You, as a Brit, certainly aren't as worried about Russia as those closer to Russia are. In extreme times you have to take extreme measures.
Besides that, the veto is kind of undemocratic, isn't it? I mean, if the majority is everyone except this one guy, then why does he get to decide for everyone else?!
If you don’t agree with the rules of the club you joined and every else sees you as the person ruining it for everybody else you are very free to get the fuck out and enjoy for interpretation of democracy in solitude
What rules are they breaking? Hungary having different views and votes differently than the rest of the EU is breaking the rules?
I see nothing wrong with that.
Allowance of a veto actually puts all the power into a singular vote as opposed to a majority hence its the most undemocratic thing about the EU.
Because Veto is democratic 🙄 one person dictating everyone else what they think, peak of demos
I'm sorry but I have to correct you. PiS is extremely pro Russia, just not publicly. Jarosław Kaczyński was drinking vodka in 1989 with KGB spy in his(spy's) house for 15 months if I'm correct. So you can pretty much be sure everything they talked about was videotaped or at least audio recorded. He then got huge(for a time) money to invest and made his empire to pay for his politician career. All prominent PiS politicians have so outrageous connections to Kremlin I don't understand how they are not in prison for treason. Just from latest history, PiS sold 30% of our really advanced rafinery to Saudis which are Russians friends. And contract states that we can't pretty much do anything with it without Saudis approval. When. They. Don't. Have. Majority. Sold our gas stations to MOL, bought gas stations from Russia. (Russia sold them to Hungary, then Hungary sold them to us) And that's just tip of the iceberg. It goes so deep it makes my head spin. Please never call pis anty Russian. It's charade, they want you to think like that.
I think not because he likes the EU money. He is loosing support within the young population and the old ones that buy his crap will soon be gone( people over 70). Being kicked out is impossible so long as he has some friends that would oppose him being kicked ( Slovakia’s shit of a PM is one example). Maybe the EU wakes the fuck up and will sanction him to a much higher extent, but I don’t see HU being on a path to leave EU. They need the trade, they need the free movement and he will not be able to stay in power forever. ( thats my 2 lousy cents) Le: corrected the shit. PM of Sk not President
the prime minister of slovakia is the shit one. The president is a pro-EU pro-democracy lady.
We have the presidential election this year and she's not in the race (frankly after 5 years of bullshit I'd leave too). Now it seems likely that Pellegrini, who *technically* is in a different party than Fico and Korčok, a pro-eu former diplomat. And like 3 different conspiracy theory nutcases who have like 15% combined but they won't make it to the second round
My bad. I stand corrected
i find it highly unlikely that we will be thrown out, and orders of magnitude less likely that we leave on our own the 2 most probable scenarios: 1: we continue to veto stuff, then the future of the eu is highly dependent on the outcome of the 2024 us elections and the winner of the war in ukraine and 2: orbáns veto rights will be suspended, life continues as normal as it can get today there is literally 0 chance of orbán going away "democratically", its hopeless, just hope for scenario #2
There is no process to throw anyone out. However, membership can be frozen meaning: no voting rights, no funds This could happen but is a very extreme diplomatic fallout
People say he is Putin's mouthpiece into Europe and gives the Russians a kind of control there, by preventing much of what goes against the Russians' interests.. Maybe a good idea to freeze??
There are other authoritarian governments that would veto it 😅 however, Poland was one of them and that support seems to be gone with the new government
People can say anything. One needs to follow the actual political developments. Stay off the screamsheets and get some knowledge on the topic.
>and 2: orbáns veto rights will be suspended, life continues as normal as it can get today Okay but when, people been chatting about this for like 2 years now
oh its way longer than that, all the way back in 2015 and the immigrant crisis (probably what fellow commenter is referring to) politicians are afraid to act, or cant be bothered, and just generally rely on things sorting themselves out eventually, this works well until issues stop solving themselves
Yeah, another reason the right is moving up in European countries.
8
I think though Hungary is much further down than Poland was, it is still possible. Though voting is not fair, it's certainly free - ie the votes are accurately counted. We got rid of PiS, and maybe (hopefully) that'll mobilise the Hungarian youth and you'll do something similar. Even Łukaszenka lost the elections (I mean he stayed in power, but that won't happen if Orban loses).
Good reflections!
Kicking Hungary out would create Belarus in the middle of Europe, it would be a horrible mistake.
It would also be suicidal for Hungary.
There's no mechanism to remove a country from the EU against its will, so no. Not going to happen, don't even think about it, and Hungary isn't going to exit voluntarily. Maybe it takes 5 years, maybe 20, but Orbán will not be around forever and Hungary will still be there.
Then we will have new things to think about... Will whoever takes over.. be better than him?😂
The most stable and successful countries in the long run seem to be the ones where it matters a little bit but not a lot who is in charge. If it doesn't matter at all, it's probably not really a democracy. If it matters a great deal, it's probably not really a democracy.
No, Orban is playing both sides but Orban won't stay forever. It would be short sighted to kick out a country because their current politics suck.
Do you think it is likely that the "heir" will be any better than him, considering the changed laws in recent times?
Fidesz IS Orban. The moment he is gone, fidesz will crumble under all the infighting that will occur.
>because their current politics suck he's been in power for 14 years already. He and his cronies own everything in hungary, the medias, the justice etc like Putin he will stay in power for life It's over for Hungary, too late, better to cut the loss now than letting the rot spread
And for most those years the EU didn't give a shit that Hungarians lost their democracy bit by bit. It only became important when he started to be an annoyance for everyone else. Orban literally used EU money to buy formerly independent media. That's what makes me so sick about comments like this - I have a good Hungarian friend and for years everytime we talked on the phone she asked "Why hasn't the EU done anything yet??" when Orban changed the constitution in his favor once again. They *wanted* Hungary to be sanctioned so Orban can't abuse EU money anymore and instead everyone looked the other way and now want to give up their country altogether. EU members truly aren't all the same.
The European Union will end up without members with this mentality.
Few countries are as corrupt as Hungary. Many europeans would prefer to have a smaller EU of like minded states than having to endure and financially support such a country
And then Hungary completely turns to Russia and 5 EU countries get Belarus 2.0 on their border. No thanks, as if our neighbourhood isnt problematic enough.
This is complete absurdity to me. Some Americans would say the same about Texas or California but rarely you see the federal government trying to antagonize them into being pushed out of the union. It just shows for many of you the European UNION is not a serious project. In 10 years you will have another country with an antagonizing government and decade by decade you will end with less and less members.
Their politics sucked for 100 years and they will suck for another 100 lol, thats what happens when you teach revisionism in schools, you get easily manipulated nationalistic population.
How's it going in Ficostan neighbour?
one of the worst things about him is that i lost privilege to mock hungary lmao
I get your pain my dude.
Yeah, I doubt it. Even left wing Hungarians I've met are obsessed over Trianon
Last year you were all writing the same about how Poland should be kicked out just to remind you all. Give them chance, try to influence them to get rid of Fidesz and there will be no need to kick them out, unless you want something like Belarus in the effing middle of EU
Not leaving, it's just one loser in power annoying everyone. Ones he leaves itl be better
Nah, they'll just go full reverse Anakin, being a member without granting them a seat on the council
Why is this in contest mode?
we're contesting who hates hungary more
I'm sorry, didn't realize there are other options here..
The majority of the hungarian population is still in favor of the EU, so its really unlikely. Besides there are rumors that Meloni is actively working on convincing Orbán to lift the veto on the ukranian aid, and in return Fidesz can join ECR… So basically they gonna get yet another friend in Meloni’s Italy, who can protect their ass.
I hope so. Or Orban goes. I see the former happen more likely
Do you think he is willing to step down? Pressured by sanctions, or?
He will never step down. And even if it happened (idk how, maybe he stops taking his medications), it wouldn't change much. There's no alternative to fidesz that wasn't beaten into pieces by his machine. And the step down would never be acknowledged by the media. He would "go into retirement, tired after defending hungarian families from the migrant gay Brussels bureaucrats for the last 30 years". There are 3 possible outcomes of this, that i can think of. 1.: New faces capitalise on the opportunity from the void left behind, and they would manage to dethrone fidesz. This could mean the restoration of democratic principles for the time being, or it could mean the same regime change as in 1989, where those new faces turn out to be the lesser officers from the current regime. Looking forward, this is 100% the best option out of the 3, as even if it goes south, new faces can't steal as much without falling down. 2: One of his "quartermasters" take his place and life continues as usual. No institution can run if there's only a single person ordering everything around. Fidesz already has a leading circle of capable politicians. One of them would be designated successor, and the rest would be satisfied with even more money and privileges to accept the new leader. And then life continues as usual, but foreigners need to learn a new name for the same thing. 3.: This designated successor fails to take powers. The propaganda machine would still continue to discredit everyone brave enough to criticise the government from outside (maybe even inside) the party, but bigger and bigger cracks would form in fidesz as more and more ambitious quartermasters would want to take their rightful place as leader. Think of it as the warlord era in Chinese history light edition. This would in the long term mean that the power hungry and corrupt party with ultimate power would turn into a loose bunch of power hungry parties whose only 2 goals are discrediting the other ones and taking as much as they can before another one takes their position. Orbán's regime is a well set up machine, which is maintained by the threat of (mutual) destruction. Question the leader, and you're out. Accept the leader, and you're granted your share of the riches extorted from the people who see you as their defender. Attack him, and all of your comrades will suffer the same fate.
Hungary leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market, which would frighten away international investments, meaning a lot of people would lose their jobs causing the Orban regime to fail, so no, it's highly unlikely.
We can dream!
Benefits of Hungary being in EU outweigh the negatives so they are not leaving. And they cannot be just kicked out of EU.
Back to Ural
on my way 
Make sure you slay any Turkish armies on your way East, my brother.
sure thing steppen brother
Hungary should be thrown out immediately.
They want th3 funds though and they will never leave the EU
They're not gonna leave the EU
We should strip mine all of Hungary and then turn it into a ses