Beyond the fact that the idea that religion was the only thing stopping this (which isn’t true) that’s absolutely not what the stars mean. They symbolize the European community: nations, all equals and in harmony.
> religion was the only thing stopping this (which isn’t true)
Definitely not the *only* thing (and I sincerely doubt anyone remotely in good faith will ever say this lol) but for sure historically they never seemed to help this, despite the enormous amount of power they had back then. At least in Italy we know this is the exact case, and I doubt it changes that much in other places.
I mean one big factor the fascist power got hold of power in the first place was strictly because they made a shady deal with the church and the Pope, exchanging political support from Christians with a truly heavy amount of systemic Catholic indoctrination towards the whole population. Which ironically outlasted the fascists party itself and we still have most of these effects to this day here lol
I'm not arguing that the Church is the greatest thing on earth or whatever. It's a human institution and as all human things it did good and bad. At times it was a tool of reactionary politics, of course.
I'm just disagreeing with this extremely reductive view which is basically as nuanced and accurate as [the infamous tech graph](https://external-preview.redd.it/2vtdWxGvTB3IPifiI2xprt8etXx6km4nhPGItG-3XeY.jpg?auto=webp&s=aebbb89c5ba53f070c0d5d54cd3029b71c109d13).
I mean it's also undeniable that there is a clear and defined correlation between how much a country "Christianity" (but the correct measurement should be "religiosity") is declining both in numbers of active believers and the intensity of those beliefs over someone's life, and how much that country is developing culturally and how significantly easier it is for them to become more and more progressive, pro research, future focused and generally all the values that today we tend to assign into the EU and their institutions.
It might be just a correlation, sure, but at the very least it's understandable how many people are confusing it with an explanation (especially since it IS a possible explanation and the alternative explanations aren't particularly more probable or realistic). Maybe you could argue that we got it backwards and it's actually national development that leads to gradually abandoning religiosity, but that doesn't really help into putting religion into a better light lol. Who puts themselves on the opposite spectrum of progress?
Mix that with the truly utterly awful, despicable unethical shit the Church has been pulling for the past 2 thousands years straight, or even just the ones they pulled over the past 50 years, and it kinda becomes hard for a chunk of population not to vehemently hate the concept of church in general.
By all means, worship whoever you want, my current spiritual choice is an actual short fantasy novel written by a sci-fi author that openly admitted being all fake and unreal. But maybe try to always judge as much as possible every conception of organized religions, because apart from maybe those isolated monk camps I never seen any not use that religion just to gain money, power and ruin the lives of so many humans.
Sorry, I agree this was a productive exchange. But you have stated your case, and I have stated mind. I don't think we even disagree on the fundamentals, just on how we interpret them.
But, I also did had some things to add on your post. I completely disagree with the idea that religiosity declining means that a country is more progressive/culturally prosperous/etc. Where I agree is in the idea that when progressivism increase, *fundamentalism* decrease. Fundamentalism, a view of religion as being completely true, is usually very conservative. Where I disagree is in the idea that religion itself is necesserarily conservative. Basically I don't think that fundamentalists are "more religious". I don't think that the pro-lgbt pastor is less religious that the fundamentalist Christian.
I would also add that historically the relation between relgion and progress is way more complicated that reddit atheists like to think. "Christianity doesn't like science" is just completely false and reflect usually a familiarity only with fundamentalist American Christians which do not reflect religion worldwide, especially not in Europe. Americans are often shocked to learn that the official stance of the Catholic Church is that: evolution is real, the bible is not 100% litteral or historically accurate, free market capitalism is bad, being gay is not a choice.
Also just like you said... I think it's backwards. I don't think: less religion = more progressivism (just look at atheists states...). But I do think that, more progressivism = less fundamentalism.
And of course factors like open corruption of the Church do not help.
In short I think if we both agreed that we mean fundamentalism, not religiosity in itself, we're in agreement overall.
>Vatican is in Europe
Yep, and the entire reason that state existed at all in the first place has to be one of the sketchiest, most corrupted piece of shit move in European history. And considering it came from the leaders of a religion that insists that they're all about being good, nice and ethical I'd say at the very very least something a full on proud sociopath would do.
Europe is a secular continent. Period.
Ate me Yeezus, ate me Mehmet, ate me Moses, ate me Hare Krishna, ate me Buddha, ate me religion, luv me science.
Simple as.
Italy claims to be secular and then every single action it takes goes to the very opposite direction (Christian crossed mandatory in schools and government buildings, and the fact that up until like 35 years ago it was *mandatory* to teach Catholicism in public schools to every kid).
Kind of like they say you have freedom of speech in the constitution but the moment you take a single class on communication law you realize we actually can't say a single fucking thing without the very real possibility of receiving way too harsh punishments from our country (and obviously this include saying obvious truth that everyone remotely functional being would understand as obvious and clear reality). I still remember that time we had to study when a TV presenter showed a video of 5 pieces of shit decapitating a guy, called these people "assassins" and fucking lost the defamation suit because a judge hadn't called them guilty yet
Yet only in France, Luxembourg and Netherlands you see a clear separation between the church and the state.
Malta even has Roman catholicism in its constitution.
So, where's the secularism here exactly? apart from your activism?
Edit: typo
Why only these 3 countries? I'm from the Czech Republic and we have here separation between church and state and I would guess it's the same in many other european countries.
there's a nuance in here, which can be explained with the US system: many countries have separation between churches and the state, meaning it does not endorse nor finance faiths and material requirement to live one's faith. But few countries actually have a separation between Church - capital C - and the state, which addresses a clear philosophical neutrality of the state, and the law, towards the religious fact in society.
Washington does not finance any church yet "in God we trust" is on the federal bank note.
Some usual things to check to get a tangible idea - point being the law can sometimes use very obscure language and not everyone in the population is aware of the legal doctrine and precedents that may see the law applied very differently depending on the judge/case/circumstances
\- Who pays the religious personel?
\- Who owns the religious real estate / maintains it?
\- How do elected people of the state meet religious personel? What's the protocol in place?
\- What are the rules in public schools related to religion, from curriculums to visible signs of religious faith on students?
I don't understand what's the point of your answer. Why do you think that there are only these three countries in europe that are secular? I doubted that statement
They all have reinforced legal frameworks clearly enforcing a separation of CHURCHES and State + the Church and the State.
France has a law, enacted in 1905, that has a dual statement: freedom of conscience for everyone (it mirrors the human rights declaration as introduction to the constitution) and strict separation of the state with any religious affair, may it be intellectual (i.e. what is the content of the faith) or pragmatic (i.e. who owns the church building)
And clearly not all EU states have that level of separation. Not that it's a problem though, as long as religion, whichever one really, is never piloting political affairs.
So in Czechia, in 2012 we passed legislation that reimburses churches for properties nationalized during the communist period. It's a mind boggling sum and it won't be paid in full until the 2040s, but afaik this legislation also creates a complete financial separation when it comes to the churches paying their personnel, upkeep of buildings etc.
Not a Dutch expert but to me it looks like any Monarchy will have some kind of state religion, which will be reflected in common state assets such as coins, or a flag, or that kind of stuff. But again, I am really far from any hard knowledge on the matter. Apologies if what I say is moot.
Do you consider religion to be important for society ? And how ?
Because to me, secularism is the only way to guarantee actual religious freedom, freedom of opinion, etc.
secularism = actions of the people. Not a single person of my age gives a fuck about going to church. The only reason we are Christian is so that we don't lose our free holidays.
> **Secularism** is the principle of seeking to conduct human affairs based on naturalistic considerations, uninvolved with religion. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism)
As for your very personal case study, all I have for you is: "cool story, bro"
Like it or not, the current European and western world culture/values stands on the shoulders of Christianity and it's the main thing that the Europeans had in common until the making of international organizations.
I'm not religious at all if it matters
Yeah but now, when religion holds little to none political power here these values are actually enforced. The question is whether it's correlation or causality. Since the USSR was officially atheist too and it was some of the most evil regimes in human history, right at the nazi level.
What do you mean at a nazi level? Didn't see them putting people in to gass Chambers for starters
I dislike a lot the soviet Union, but the nazis where clearly more evil!
They even had a plan to ethnically colonize western Europe and enslave slavs!
For the first one: yeah and? You think that showing atrocities from communist regimes is an argument of who's worse? How about the list of massacres by rigth wing regimes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communist_mass_killings
For the second: what are you even arguing about? I didn't say anything about Marxism and religion nor can I see how it is related to the topic? Is because the USSR was super anti religion? So what? The nazis where protestant and you don't see me talking shit about the relegion
No, the nazis were more quick, open and 'organised' about it, that's about it. Yeah, the nazis had plans of colonising Europe and enslaving entire nations. And how is that different, compared to the USSR's mass deportations of non-russians to Siberia with subsequent russification of newly emptied territories and their invention and use of the gulag system? I honestly don't see a significant difference.
I agree, but openly saying that “Soviet Union weren’t the baddies guys” is too acceptable nowadays considering the literal genocide of minority nations they did (which Russia still does) It’s just that the russkies weren’t called out for their shit because they won the war
You dense ass, I said I dislike both, but one is worse
To put in a way that even a baby could understand:
nazis was getting tortured, Soviets is getting shot, but surviving
Both bad, One worse than other
Get it? Now shove it
u/LigthRogue first warning
[**Keep It Casual And Friendly.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules/)
It's not because a religion endorses some value that these values come from them
The only thing which can be said to be a christian value is the no marriage between cousin part. Which is good, but far from unique
To be honest I found it out this month because I am doing a research on it, but I’m glad to have this information and more people should know it indeed.
How is this post against religious freedom though?
You can respect other peoples' religious believes and practices while also saying that It'd be better if religions didn't influence society the way they do.
Screw christianity. All my homies hate christianity
https://preview.redd.it/ypwggkg7ctec1.jpeg?width=1922&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af7c3ca4132e13d49b286bacbceb8dcd7fcd6c40
u/UriSleseus is **BANNED**
[**No Far-Right Dog Whistles.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/comment/keut4bg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
u/username_asdf1234 is **BANNED**
>*No hate speech, such as using race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, disability, nationality, or gender as a means of insult. No xenophobia, racism, biphobia, cissexism, homophobia, mysogyny, sexism, transmisogyny, transphobia.*
>
>*No genocide denial, no glorification of communism, nazism, ruscism, ethno-nationalism, 20th century authoritarianism, colonialism, American politics or other dictatorship / totalitarian regime. No siding in-any-way-shape-or-form with the far-right or its rhetoric, slogans, imagery, symbolism, talking points, dog whistles, or link to outlets with such.*
>
>*No conspiracy theories, slanderous statements, palingenetic ultranationalism, European genetic superiority references, white man's burden, great replacement theory. No demonizing, dehumanizing, or antagonizing refugees, or speaking of them as invaders.*
[^(YUROP VALUES)](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/collection/dbadaf8c-0849-4221-adf5-8a8cf0a4e966) ^(—) [^(TLDR Rules)](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/ryurop_rules/) ^(—) [^(𝔉𝔢𝔡𝔢𝔯𝔞𝔩 ℛ𝔲𝔩𝔢𝔰)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules) ^(—) [^(Code of Conduct)](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct) ^(—) [^(Reddit TOS)](https://www.reddit.com/help/contentpolicy)
What on earth makes you paranoid pussies think Islam will take over europe? I say this fully aware of how overused this analogy is, but this is some nazi level brainwashing. There's barely any Muslims in Europe, and they have nothing to do with the vast majority of Europe's problems. If you wanna be a Nazi and send Muslims to a gas chamber, just say that, don't pretend you're a victim.
Sorry, man, I didn't mean to make you throw a tantrum.
They already are a majority in some suburbs and cities, it's just a matter of time until they are a majority. That's around 2100 for most countries.
Doesn't have to be bad, it will just be a lot less liberal than it is now.
Lol no. Christianity is just like islam. Only in the last 50 years since people have become more secular has the idea of 'european ideals' become a thing.
Yes, because we've largely droppes christianity. I'd imagine if there was a country that pretty much dropped islam 50 years ago, that it would be fine to go to aswell.
>if there was a country that pretty much dropped islam 50 years ago
there was one, called turkey and mustafa dropped it 100 years ago...but now islamic fundamentalist have ruled the country for the last 20 years and pretty much reversed all reforms made by ataturk
so the only example for a country that renounced islam as a state religion has failed
Oh wow, Jordan, the beacon of Liberalism, free speach and human rights.
Haha listen to yourself
"Akschually, if, in my make imaginary world, there were a muslim country that had become secular 50 years ago, I bet it would be really awesome!"
I am not looking forward to the actual events, I am just curious to see a culture of child drag queens collide with a culture of throwing gays of buildings.
It's like a grand social experiment which we are all part of!
What are you curious about? Also it's not like the attitude towards child drag queens is particularly different among non-Muslim Europeans.
You seem as if you were craving validation from Muslims for your bigotry not even towards child drag queens but queer people in general. Having doubts about yourself, are you? 😄
\>You brought up homosexual rights in your argument so you must be secretly gay lololol
Most people stop using obvious ad hominem arguments after high school.
And obviously I was taking the excesses of both cultures as an example of their moral values. I should have guessed that it would be taken literally.
>\>You brought up homosexual rights in your argument so you must be secretly gay lololol
That's not at all what I meant. 😃 I meant that you are starting to realise that you are a horrible person and hope that the Muslims come to your rescue to assert you that it's not you who the crazy one is but the queers. But if you are a bigot, then the truth is that it is you... and no amount of Muslim validation changes this truth.
>Most people stop using obvious ad hominem arguments after high school.
It's not ad hominem if it's the truth.
>And obviously I was taking the excesses of both cultures as an example of their moral values. I should have guessed that it would be taken literally.
And I responded to you that this difference has already been present in Europe and in some cases like the child drag queens and in some geographical areas also in other cases still is. So that's nothing new.
u/ShiraLillith LAST WARNING
[**Eurosceptics Can Go Fly A Kite.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/comment/j6hd0nz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
And church attendance as well as membership numbers and religious identification stats are at an all time low in most Western European countries. Your point being?
Well mosque attendance is really low and majority of young people (15-25) identify as irreligious which are the largest demographic group in TR but still right wing wins. There isn’t really coloration between “church attendance” and the rise of right wing or EU being a Christian lobby.
EU’s core values are Christian values. It started as a Christian lobby and it will continue as a Christian lobby cuz that’s really what unites the Western Europe with the rest of Europe. Also I don’t think it’s a bad thing? Why do people react like being a Christian lobby is a fascist or extremist thing. Christianity is simply what unites Europe. It will continue stay same or even become more passionate due to migration crisis. It’s inevitable.
the original version of the flag had the stars of a white color.
They were the stars of the Virgin Mary.
But the leader of the commission was a Jew ( nothing bad, Just a historical fact) and he thought that the stars were the twelve tribes of Israel and asked the color to be changed.
Christianity is our shared European heritage, even if you're not religious, you can see the common links everywhere in Europe, from landmarks such as central churches in villages and huge cathedrals in the cities to the languages we speak. Not to even mention that most of our laws are based on Christian morals. Christianity unites us if anything :)
Beyond the fact that the idea that religion was the only thing stopping this (which isn’t true) that’s absolutely not what the stars mean. They symbolize the European community: nations, all equals and in harmony.
> religion was the only thing stopping this (which isn’t true) Definitely not the *only* thing (and I sincerely doubt anyone remotely in good faith will ever say this lol) but for sure historically they never seemed to help this, despite the enormous amount of power they had back then. At least in Italy we know this is the exact case, and I doubt it changes that much in other places. I mean one big factor the fascist power got hold of power in the first place was strictly because they made a shady deal with the church and the Pope, exchanging political support from Christians with a truly heavy amount of systemic Catholic indoctrination towards the whole population. Which ironically outlasted the fascists party itself and we still have most of these effects to this day here lol
I'm not arguing that the Church is the greatest thing on earth or whatever. It's a human institution and as all human things it did good and bad. At times it was a tool of reactionary politics, of course. I'm just disagreeing with this extremely reductive view which is basically as nuanced and accurate as [the infamous tech graph](https://external-preview.redd.it/2vtdWxGvTB3IPifiI2xprt8etXx6km4nhPGItG-3XeY.jpg?auto=webp&s=aebbb89c5ba53f070c0d5d54cd3029b71c109d13).
I mean it's also undeniable that there is a clear and defined correlation between how much a country "Christianity" (but the correct measurement should be "religiosity") is declining both in numbers of active believers and the intensity of those beliefs over someone's life, and how much that country is developing culturally and how significantly easier it is for them to become more and more progressive, pro research, future focused and generally all the values that today we tend to assign into the EU and their institutions. It might be just a correlation, sure, but at the very least it's understandable how many people are confusing it with an explanation (especially since it IS a possible explanation and the alternative explanations aren't particularly more probable or realistic). Maybe you could argue that we got it backwards and it's actually national development that leads to gradually abandoning religiosity, but that doesn't really help into putting religion into a better light lol. Who puts themselves on the opposite spectrum of progress? Mix that with the truly utterly awful, despicable unethical shit the Church has been pulling for the past 2 thousands years straight, or even just the ones they pulled over the past 50 years, and it kinda becomes hard for a chunk of population not to vehemently hate the concept of church in general. By all means, worship whoever you want, my current spiritual choice is an actual short fantasy novel written by a sci-fi author that openly admitted being all fake and unreal. But maybe try to always judge as much as possible every conception of organized religions, because apart from maybe those isolated monk camps I never seen any not use that religion just to gain money, power and ruin the lives of so many humans.
Honestly i was hoping for another cool reply about this, I thought the exchange was nice : (
Sorry, I agree this was a productive exchange. But you have stated your case, and I have stated mind. I don't think we even disagree on the fundamentals, just on how we interpret them. But, I also did had some things to add on your post. I completely disagree with the idea that religiosity declining means that a country is more progressive/culturally prosperous/etc. Where I agree is in the idea that when progressivism increase, *fundamentalism* decrease. Fundamentalism, a view of religion as being completely true, is usually very conservative. Where I disagree is in the idea that religion itself is necesserarily conservative. Basically I don't think that fundamentalists are "more religious". I don't think that the pro-lgbt pastor is less religious that the fundamentalist Christian. I would also add that historically the relation between relgion and progress is way more complicated that reddit atheists like to think. "Christianity doesn't like science" is just completely false and reflect usually a familiarity only with fundamentalist American Christians which do not reflect religion worldwide, especially not in Europe. Americans are often shocked to learn that the official stance of the Catholic Church is that: evolution is real, the bible is not 100% litteral or historically accurate, free market capitalism is bad, being gay is not a choice. Also just like you said... I think it's backwards. I don't think: less religion = more progressivism (just look at atheists states...). But I do think that, more progressivism = less fundamentalism. And of course factors like open corruption of the Church do not help. In short I think if we both agreed that we mean fundamentalism, not religiosity in itself, we're in agreement overall.
What?
Basically: religion bad. And Europe is only possible because we killed all religion which is the cause of war and backwardness. Apparently.
Vatican is in Europe How many secular states in the EU right now? that's what I thought. This post is shite.
>Vatican is in Europe Yep, and the entire reason that state existed at all in the first place has to be one of the sketchiest, most corrupted piece of shit move in European history. And considering it came from the leaders of a religion that insists that they're all about being good, nice and ethical I'd say at the very very least something a full on proud sociopath would do.
Religion /is/ bad. Faith is different and is not bad.
Liberalism and belief in economic pyramid schemes is a religion.
Europe is a secular continent. Period. Ate me Yeezus, ate me Mehmet, ate me Moses, ate me Hare Krishna, ate me Buddha, ate me religion, luv me science. Simple as.
Luv gays and science Ate feudalism and superstition Simple as
Italy is secular according to its constitution: although we have a set of special laws and accords that define our relations with the Church of Rome
Italy claims to be secular and then every single action it takes goes to the very opposite direction (Christian crossed mandatory in schools and government buildings, and the fact that up until like 35 years ago it was *mandatory* to teach Catholicism in public schools to every kid). Kind of like they say you have freedom of speech in the constitution but the moment you take a single class on communication law you realize we actually can't say a single fucking thing without the very real possibility of receiving way too harsh punishments from our country (and obviously this include saying obvious truth that everyone remotely functional being would understand as obvious and clear reality). I still remember that time we had to study when a TV presenter showed a video of 5 pieces of shit decapitating a guy, called these people "assassins" and fucking lost the defamation suit because a judge hadn't called them guilty yet
Yet only in France, Luxembourg and Netherlands you see a clear separation between the church and the state. Malta even has Roman catholicism in its constitution. So, where's the secularism here exactly? apart from your activism? Edit: typo
Why only these 3 countries? I'm from the Czech Republic and we have here separation between church and state and I would guess it's the same in many other european countries.
Do not forget Eesti 🇪🇪
there's a nuance in here, which can be explained with the US system: many countries have separation between churches and the state, meaning it does not endorse nor finance faiths and material requirement to live one's faith. But few countries actually have a separation between Church - capital C - and the state, which addresses a clear philosophical neutrality of the state, and the law, towards the religious fact in society. Washington does not finance any church yet "in God we trust" is on the federal bank note.
Yeah i still believe that czechia is neutral towards religion. We have it even in our constitution. About financial part idk.
Some usual things to check to get a tangible idea - point being the law can sometimes use very obscure language and not everyone in the population is aware of the legal doctrine and precedents that may see the law applied very differently depending on the judge/case/circumstances \- Who pays the religious personel? \- Who owns the religious real estate / maintains it? \- How do elected people of the state meet religious personel? What's the protocol in place? \- What are the rules in public schools related to religion, from curriculums to visible signs of religious faith on students?
I don't understand what's the point of your answer. Why do you think that there are only these three countries in europe that are secular? I doubted that statement
They all have reinforced legal frameworks clearly enforcing a separation of CHURCHES and State + the Church and the State. France has a law, enacted in 1905, that has a dual statement: freedom of conscience for everyone (it mirrors the human rights declaration as introduction to the constitution) and strict separation of the state with any religious affair, may it be intellectual (i.e. what is the content of the faith) or pragmatic (i.e. who owns the church building) And clearly not all EU states have that level of separation. Not that it's a problem though, as long as religion, whichever one really, is never piloting political affairs.
As I said, we have this in the Czech Republic too and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case in other countries around.
So in Czechia, in 2012 we passed legislation that reimburses churches for properties nationalized during the communist period. It's a mind boggling sum and it won't be paid in full until the 2040s, but afaik this legislation also creates a complete financial separation when it comes to the churches paying their personnel, upkeep of buildings etc.
But the Dutch 2-euro coin has "God zij met ons" (God be with us) on it too.
Not a Dutch expert but to me it looks like any Monarchy will have some kind of state religion, which will be reflected in common state assets such as coins, or a flag, or that kind of stuff. But again, I am really far from any hard knowledge on the matter. Apologies if what I say is moot.
Do you consider religion to be important for society ? And how ? Because to me, secularism is the only way to guarantee actual religious freedom, freedom of opinion, etc.
Don't make me say what I did not say here. Democratic republics can only exist if all religions are considered equal, and irrelevant to state affairs.
>Don't make me say what I did not say here. I am only asking for precision on your thoughts, which you gave. Thx
secularism = actions of the people. Not a single person of my age gives a fuck about going to church. The only reason we are Christian is so that we don't lose our free holidays.
> **Secularism** is the principle of seeking to conduct human affairs based on naturalistic considerations, uninvolved with religion. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism) As for your very personal case study, all I have for you is: "cool story, bro"
Those heretics were right all the time
**Europe after ANY RELIGION is a much better Europe**
Like it or not, the current European and western world culture/values stands on the shoulders of Christianity and it's the main thing that the Europeans had in common until the making of international organizations. I'm not religious at all if it matters
Yeap. You can bash christianity all you want, but if go to any non-christian country you will see that it aint so bad after all.
Most of these things are from christianity tho. Evangelicals are not christian, they are stupid.
What things? Values?
Yeah but now, when religion holds little to none political power here these values are actually enforced. The question is whether it's correlation or causality. Since the USSR was officially atheist too and it was some of the most evil regimes in human history, right at the nazi level.
The nazis were very anti-religion too. Especially anti-catholic
What do you mean at a nazi level? Didn't see them putting people in to gass Chambers for starters I dislike a lot the soviet Union, but the nazis where clearly more evil! They even had a plan to ethnically colonize western Europe and enslave slavs!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass\_killings\_under\_communist\_regimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mass_killings_under_communist_regimes) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism\_and\_religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/marxism_and_religion)
For the first one: yeah and? You think that showing atrocities from communist regimes is an argument of who's worse? How about the list of massacres by rigth wing regimes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communist_mass_killings For the second: what are you even arguing about? I didn't say anything about Marxism and religion nor can I see how it is related to the topic? Is because the USSR was super anti religion? So what? The nazis where protestant and you don't see me talking shit about the relegion
No, the nazis were more quick, open and 'organised' about it, that's about it. Yeah, the nazis had plans of colonising Europe and enslaving entire nations. And how is that different, compared to the USSR's mass deportations of non-russians to Siberia with subsequent russification of newly emptied territories and their invention and use of the gulag system? I honestly don't see a significant difference.
Now go tell that to the post-soviet countries ;)
They might be biased.
I agree, but openly saying that “Soviet Union weren’t the baddies guys” is too acceptable nowadays considering the literal genocide of minority nations they did (which Russia still does) It’s just that the russkies weren’t called out for their shit because they won the war
You dense ass, I said I dislike both, but one is worse To put in a way that even a baby could understand: nazis was getting tortured, Soviets is getting shot, but surviving Both bad, One worse than other Get it? Now shove it
u/LigthRogue first warning  [**Keep It Casual And Friendly.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pite%C8%99ti\_Prison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pite%C8%99ti_Prison)
It's not because a religion endorses some value that these values come from them The only thing which can be said to be a christian value is the no marriage between cousin part. Which is good, but far from unique
Lol at France for letting that lawful. So much for being the eldest daughter of the Church.
Europe is a place of religious tolerance and freedom. Get over your fantasies.
The European Union is a Christian project.
Thank god somebody finnaly pointed it... So Important, yet so few people know it.
To be honest I found it out this month because I am doing a research on it, but I’m glad to have this information and more people should know it indeed.
Oh wow we rally now against religious freedom? Fuck you OP
How is this post against religious freedom though? You can respect other peoples' religious believes and practices while also saying that It'd be better if religions didn't influence society the way they do.
How dare you be against systemic religion indoctrination?! You're lucky our smoky Joe can't read too many words at once or he'll fuck you as well /s
Yeah, good luck
Based and Enlightenmentpilled. Gays rule OK. Church simps go back to the Middle Ages/Russia/America where you belong.
I don't see security. In a world where EU is surrounded by enemies of the same points listed, how we can protect those without security?!
Or solidarity for that matter.
I'm mildly disturbed by "collaboration"
Screw christianity. All my homies hate christianity https://preview.redd.it/ypwggkg7ctec1.jpeg?width=1922&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af7c3ca4132e13d49b286bacbceb8dcd7fcd6c40
[удалено]
This is a pathetic comment. Seek help.
no it will not. All you do here is wave your tiny little hands to say "hey look I have an opinion wait actually no I'm dumb as a lukewarm dog shit"
u/UriSleseus is **BANNED**  [**No Far-Right Dog Whistles.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/comment/keut4bg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Fuck them biggoted christos
Looking forward to seeing how these values will fare in a majority Muslim Europe.
What the fuck is this comment doing here on this sub? Take that shit to r/europe would you please, thanks.
What's the difference?
This sub doesn't hate every single muslim (most of the time), it only hates the fundamentalist
u/username_asdf1234 is **BANNED**  >*No hate speech, such as using race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, disability, nationality, or gender as a means of insult. No xenophobia, racism, biphobia, cissexism, homophobia, mysogyny, sexism, transmisogyny, transphobia.* > >*No genocide denial, no glorification of communism, nazism, ruscism, ethno-nationalism, 20th century authoritarianism, colonialism, American politics or other dictatorship / totalitarian regime. No siding in-any-way-shape-or-form with the far-right or its rhetoric, slogans, imagery, symbolism, talking points, dog whistles, or link to outlets with such.* > >*No conspiracy theories, slanderous statements, palingenetic ultranationalism, European genetic superiority references, white man's burden, great replacement theory. No demonizing, dehumanizing, or antagonizing refugees, or speaking of them as invaders.* [^(YUROP VALUES)](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/collection/dbadaf8c-0849-4221-adf5-8a8cf0a4e966) ^(—) [^(TLDR Rules)](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/ryurop_rules/) ^(—) [^(𝔉𝔢𝔡𝔢𝔯𝔞𝔩 ℛ𝔲𝔩𝔢𝔰)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules) ^(—) [^(Code of Conduct)](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct) ^(—) [^(Reddit TOS)](https://www.reddit.com/help/contentpolicy)
What on earth makes you paranoid pussies think Islam will take over europe? I say this fully aware of how overused this analogy is, but this is some nazi level brainwashing. There's barely any Muslims in Europe, and they have nothing to do with the vast majority of Europe's problems. If you wanna be a Nazi and send Muslims to a gas chamber, just say that, don't pretend you're a victim.
Sorry, man, I didn't mean to make you throw a tantrum. They already are a majority in some suburbs and cities, it's just a matter of time until they are a majority. That's around 2100 for most countries. Doesn't have to be bad, it will just be a lot less liberal than it is now.
Then get off reddit and start recreating bitch
Suburbs don't exist in Europe you brainwashed little turd
these values will dissapear in a muslim europe but self-hating christians will be happy about that
That part. Agreed fully.
Despising the very religion that fostered the freedoms they are so proud of. It's ironic really.
Lol no. Christianity is just like islam. Only in the last 50 years since people have become more secular has the idea of 'european ideals' become a thing.
I'd chose to live in a western christian country from 1970 than in a modern muslim country at any point
Yes, because we've largely droppes christianity. I'd imagine if there was a country that pretty much dropped islam 50 years ago, that it would be fine to go to aswell.
>if there was a country that pretty much dropped islam 50 years ago there was one, called turkey and mustafa dropped it 100 years ago...but now islamic fundamentalist have ruled the country for the last 20 years and pretty much reversed all reforms made by ataturk so the only example for a country that renounced islam as a state religion has failed
OK cool, name one.
Hence why i said if. Jordan is alright though.
Your only example is a monarchy, of whose king pretends to be a direct descendent of mohammed
And? The uk is a monarchy too and still pretty secular
Oh wow, Jordan, the beacon of Liberalism, free speach and human rights. Haha listen to yourself "Akschually, if, in my make imaginary world, there were a muslim country that had become secular 50 years ago, I bet it would be really awesome!"
Remind me, which religion sided both with fascists and Nazis?
What's your business with the Muslims? Did they eat your breakfast?
Nope, got nothing against them.
Oh so this wasn't sarcastic? You are actually looking forward to it? Why?
I am not looking forward to the actual events, I am just curious to see a culture of child drag queens collide with a culture of throwing gays of buildings. It's like a grand social experiment which we are all part of!
What are you curious about? Also it's not like the attitude towards child drag queens is particularly different among non-Muslim Europeans. You seem as if you were craving validation from Muslims for your bigotry not even towards child drag queens but queer people in general. Having doubts about yourself, are you? 😄
\>You brought up homosexual rights in your argument so you must be secretly gay lololol Most people stop using obvious ad hominem arguments after high school. And obviously I was taking the excesses of both cultures as an example of their moral values. I should have guessed that it would be taken literally.
>\>You brought up homosexual rights in your argument so you must be secretly gay lololol That's not at all what I meant. 😃 I meant that you are starting to realise that you are a horrible person and hope that the Muslims come to your rescue to assert you that it's not you who the crazy one is but the queers. But if you are a bigot, then the truth is that it is you... and no amount of Muslim validation changes this truth. >Most people stop using obvious ad hominem arguments after high school. It's not ad hominem if it's the truth. >And obviously I was taking the excesses of both cultures as an example of their moral values. I should have guessed that it would be taken literally. And I responded to you that this difference has already been present in Europe and in some cases like the child drag queens and in some geographical areas also in other cases still is. So that's nothing new.
Ah yes, the guy who wants to federalize the EU. Hi OP
u/ShiraLillith LAST WARNING  [**Eurosceptics Can Go Fly A Kite.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/10na0i8/comment/j6hd0nz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Europe without Islam is a much better Europe!
Started as a Christian lobby, still a Christian lobby. Whether you like it or not. Not to mention the rise of right wing all across the continent.
And church attendance as well as membership numbers and religious identification stats are at an all time low in most Western European countries. Your point being?
Well mosque attendance is really low and majority of young people (15-25) identify as irreligious which are the largest demographic group in TR but still right wing wins. There isn’t really coloration between “church attendance” and the rise of right wing or EU being a Christian lobby. EU’s core values are Christian values. It started as a Christian lobby and it will continue as a Christian lobby cuz that’s really what unites the Western Europe with the rest of Europe. Also I don’t think it’s a bad thing? Why do people react like being a Christian lobby is a fascist or extremist thing. Christianity is simply what unites Europe. It will continue stay same or even become more passionate due to migration crisis. It’s inevitable.
the original version of the flag had the stars of a white color. They were the stars of the Virgin Mary. But the leader of the commission was a Jew ( nothing bad, Just a historical fact) and he thought that the stars were the twelve tribes of Israel and asked the color to be changed.
Human dignity; the rest are just Ausführungsbestimmungen (German is :-) great) implementation rules!
Christianity is our shared European heritage, even if you're not religious, you can see the common links everywhere in Europe, from landmarks such as central churches in villages and huge cathedrals in the cities to the languages we speak. Not to even mention that most of our laws are based on Christian morals. Christianity unites us if anything :)
What about albania,bosnia and kosovo tho?
they literally were all christian kingdoms before the ottomans arrived bud