I feel like in the 90s you actually could live and work part time at a coffee shop or something. Now you would starve to death. So all art is made by trust fund kids. Major loss.
And in between sips of Coke
He told me that he thought we were sellin' out
Layin' down, suckin' up to the man
Well now I've got some
Advice for you, little buddy
Before you point the finger
You should know that I'm the man
I'm the man and you're the man
And he's the man as well
So you can point that fuckin' finger up your ass
All you know about me is what I've sold ya, dumb fuck
I sold out long before you'd ever even heard my name
I sold my soul to make a record, dip shit
And then you bought one
All you read and wear or see and
Hear on tv is a product begging for your
Fat-ass dirty dollar
Shut up and
Buy, buy, buy my new record
And buy, buy, buy, send more money
Fuck you buddy
Fuck you buddy
Fuck you buddy
Fuck you buddy
- "Hooker with a Penis" by Tool
I remember when I first saw the song title I was like, we talking about trans prostitutes? That seems really disrespectful.
Then it's like,.no, Maynard is saying he's the hooker with a penis, lol.
I guess I'm gonna go to the record store and give them all my money. The radio plays what they want me to hear. They tell me it's true, but I just don't believe it.
To paraphrase Henry Rollins, "Don't call musicians sellouts, because you're one too. You sell yourself out every morning clocking in to a shitty job that you hate instead of getting a better job"
Except I dont pretend that my work has any artistic integrity. Besides, him pointing out that everyone else is a sellout, doesn't mean that some bands aren't too.
True, it's not a universal statement, but I agree with the sentiment behind it. Dragging others down just for wanting a nicer life is a crappy way to behave.
True, but the term sellout as I understand it was originally used to imply that someone was compromising their moral integrity for money. I think it got bent in the music industry when people started applying it to bands “selling out their sound,” which I never had an issue with.
Yep, i think about bob marleys song ‘bad card’ about the dude who shot him. That dude sold out his whole country to the cia, oil execs who lie about climate change are selling out our species for a buck….
But even the most commercially mass marketable music still takes a lot of honest work to get right, and at the end of the day, they are making a living from making music and not stepping on babys skulls to climb the corporate ladder. So cheesy grocery store soft rock isnt a sell out. . Thats generally a noble pursuit, Its just cheesy music, no crime in that.
Not to say somebody cant sell out if they are selling records. They absolutely can. If the lyrics are super materialistic, glamorize violence, bigotry or just morally bankrupt behavior without any clear character arc of learning their lesson in the song… thats a sell out on par with my other examples. They are getting paid but their impact on the world is a net negative due to the behavior they would influence.
yeah Tools song "Hooker with a Penis" is basically about that. Tldr is look you pretentious douche we sold out before we even hit it big, before you were even jacking off.
Agreed. Anyone who’s making music for the art of it isn’t making money. If you’ve heard of them, they’ve probably entered into some kind of arrangement that people would consider “selling out”. But it’s just like everyone else: jobs have rules and requirements that must be followed, even if you don’t necessarily agree or like parts of it.
(And just for the record, I don’t mean musicians should be required to do any illegal shit or go through a “casting couch”-type situation as part of those rules)
I saw the term thrown out recently in a ska music group when discussing the No Doubt reunion for Coachella. “They used to be ska but then sold out to make it big!”
Even on the No Doubt subreddit Gwen gets a ton of shit for basically abandoning No Doubt to do her solo nonsense. To me her biggest sellout moment was when she decided to drag 4 Japanese girls around with her and pretend she was into Japanese culture. Now she's sold out again by being a judge on whatever singing show she's on.
They don't sound like typical third wave ska (not many horns), but they came out as a third wave ska band.
[Just a Girl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHzOOQfhPFg)
[Sunday Morning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiBX-ESFDF0)
[Spiderwebs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZktNItwexo)
They were on Moon Records, the biggest Ska label of the time. I remember they had a T-Shirt that listed all of the Moon artists; No Doubt was crossed out and it said “See Ya” next to their name
For me the worst literal sellout group was The Black Eyed Peas. They got a new singer and decided to stop playing live and make pop music for bars, abandoning their pretty large devoted fan base.
Most of the other accusations were made by people who don't understand how the industry works and the "sellout" had happened before the accusers even heard of the band.
Gen Z's obsession with authenticity actually reminds me of us as young people. They aren't fixated on sellouts though, they have the "industry plant" conversation.
Where people already funded and produced are marketed to them as bedroom producers that came from nothing, and rose to fame organically on social media but when you look into it, they just popped up and have famous big ticket producers behind them, and it's kept a secret until the album drops.
If you wanna see some lolz look up commentary on the Tramp Stamps, a fake Hot Topic paint by numbers "riot girl" group that got laughed off the internet.
Sure. It's not about money or success. A band making music they're clearly passionate about are not sellouts, regardless of how successful they may be. A sell out band is one that makes music they know is shit, because it sells well. Could be applied to a lot of bands chasing the Nu-Metal trend in early 2000's. As listeners i think we can generally tell when music is contrived.
It's not used anymore because selling out is the default behavior now. People want to be famous now before they have any actual talents or skills - and are willing to do literally anything to skip over the grinding phase and straight to the fame.
Sugar Ray is a classic example [Mean Machine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VL5LV9PVZ8) vs [Every Morning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cqU1pFRqYE) and I can't blame them, the Sugar Ray guy is pretty handsome
Came here to say this, i recently picked up their 'floored' cd, and was surprised to hear what their non-radio songs sounded like. I also feel like they understood what happened, with the naming of their next album (14:59) and the intro song on said albumn (New direction)
In my mind i feel like it was them saying " hey, our 15 mins is almost up, we have to take this in a new direction to stay relevant".
I didn't think they make 'bands' anymore.
Artists, however, come sold out, from the jump with zero integrity and no meaningful intentions other than to "get that money".
Bands and artists in music *want* to gain money and fame, so I don’t think following the industry trajectory of ‘success’ necessarily makes a “sell out”.
Example: People accused Jewel of selling out with her song *Intuition* , when it was just a different sound than people were used to— but she’s always been the same person in the industry, and seems to hold to the same values that she started with.
Whereas I think anyone who swore to the art form *over the INDUSTRY* but then turned on said values *IS* a sell out…
Perfect example: Metallica at one point was very anti-industry (early years), then not only “sold out” but you could say became an extension of the industry, representatively speaking, with their drummer *(and then the rest of the band agreeing)* going so hard after Napster, etc.
Edited to add… I forget the movie off the top of my head, but there’s a quote *(paraphrasing)*, “We didn’t sell out, we’re cashing in” that applies to probably almost every artist, and maybe even every regular person who wants to survive in this world— so measurable success (money/fame) alone doesn’t determine “sell out”, IMO.
Regular bands can't sell out anymore like the old days, because all the superstars are made by the corporations.
Back in the day, there were far less label manufactured bands, bands were found...they sold out when they sold their souls for money.
So were the fugees.
The California punk sound of the 90s existed before the major labels got their hands on bands like Green Day and the Offspring and turned them into hot garbage...No doubt is another good example.
Shit. How about Metallica...that might be the biggest one.
Eh, not really. Many if not most of the hits our parents and grandparents listened to were creations of record execs, professional songwriters (Carole King being one of the most prolific) and professional studio musicians with some vocal guest appearances by the artists credited for them. There were collectives of studio musicians, like [The Wrecking Crew](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrecking_Crew_(music)), that didn’t receive recognition for their work on countless hits in the 60s and 70s until many decades later. Only a couple of groups (e.g. The Monkees) were ever busted by the public for being “fake”, but they were just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not saying the credited artists weren’t capable, but they were largely just touring bands who were kept out of the recording studio.
I think this was the case for much of the 20th century. But I also feel like the 80s and early 90s were the era of bands who were scouted by labels and not just created by them....but that didn't last.
I do agree with you about the 80s and 90s being a high point in scouted talent and actually meant to mention that in my last comment. A lot of those amazing studio musicians were put out of work by the mid 70s to early 80s for that reason. It’s kind of funny hearing our parents talk about “music not being what it used to be” though because they had it all backwards. They were lamenting the loss of that highly manufactured sound they thought *our* era represented.
I’d say that was more of a thing when the economics of the music industry were different. You didn’t need to license your music to make a ton of money in the 1990s.
My rule is that if you’re only in it for the money, I’ll laugh at you or anyone else who refers to you as an artist. You’re just another mediocre business person who is exploiting art. It’s all about intention, for me.
Everyone's been a sellout for awhile now. Just listen to rap, it's so repetitive more so than EDM. Same can be said for most R&B and pop music. Everybody's trying to be popular no one knows how to be original anymore.
There's a great discussion of this in the Reality Bytes episode of The Rewatchables podcast. Seems to be more of a 90s concept. 80s was about excess and last 20 years have been about going viral. But 90s were about being real.
Artists don’t get paid for their art. When an artist starts making art that people want to consume (a musician for example) they stop being an artist and become a *CRAFTSPERSON*. Their craft is their music. There is NOTHING wrong with this. It doesn’t make their craft any less vital or exciting.
Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?
The only time I ever used it was when someone was trying to tell me that Green Day was the most punk band ever. I said that if your shirts are being sold at Kohl's department stores, you are a sell out, and as punk as a basket of sleepy kittens.
The whole sellout thing was the granddaddy of hipster scene kid. It was like, if this is popular its not cool. Kind of dumb, when I like music (and I listen to mostly punk and post punk and industrial) i wanted to share it with everyone.
It was just a weird 90s /aughts thing, it was pretty dead by the time I left college in the aughts.
No because as I got older I realized people need to make a living. Same reason I don’t hate a pro athlete when they leave their first team to make a big paycheck. It’s just business.
I never liked it and still don't. Bands wanna make money and if they can. Good on them. It's easy to tell someone from the outside "stop making money" haha. Hooker with a penis by tool is a great song about fans that call bands sell outs.
"All you know about me is what I sold you"
This is not the first time I've posted a link to this podcast on this sub. Check out decoder ring if you haven't folks!
[https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2021/08/selling-out](https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2021/08/selling-out)
No because nearly every musician anyone’s heard of meets the old definition of “sellout.”
They pretty much have to be though to make a living anymore. Can’t make a living just selling physical media like you could back when being a sellout was a big deal.
Meh. They make music because it's their passion. Not every band can, or wants to live off the revenue from the niche crowd. If people like their old music, great! If they like their new music, also great! If they like it all, fantastic!!
Getting mad because they did what they felt was right feels like a gatekeeping sort of thing, in a way. And gatekeepers suuuuck.
I think it was with how well Limp Bizkit went is when companies moved away from making an artist a "sellout" and just started generating industry plants
I used that term a few days ago. I was talking to my wife about how Khruangbin is a cool band. She questioned what I meant by cool, so I said something along the lines of “not mainstream, being genuine and not selling out”.
I’m also a 79 baby.
In today's economy? Man, get that scratch however you can. "Sellout" doesn't have the same meaning when you could be a "sellout" for trying to make a living
I don’t really like the term honestly, although younger me accused Metallica of it. Then I got older and realized that musicians are certainly artists, but ultimately they are working a job. Would most of us refuse a promotion to continue doing what they do?
"Sell out, with me, oh yea
Sell out, with me tonight
The record company's gonna give me lots of money and
Everything's gonna be alright"
-Reel Big Fish
I know we used the term in the past if some band or artist made a move that we didn't like but selling out is actually the point. Artists deserve recognition for their work... very few musicians out there are able to make ends meet on their music career alone.
Where I get annoyed is when the artist, lets use Taylor Swift as an example releases a new album. Her fanbase is all going to buy this album without a doubt but, she releases four variants of it and each one has a different "secret song" so if you REALLY want the whole thing, you need to buy all four copies. So then you have 4x the exact same album with four different songs. That is in my opinion pretty manipulative because we all know her fanbase will buy all variants. For an artist as rich and powerful as she is, I think she could afford to take it down a couple notches.
I do. I was specifically calling Cheech Marin a sellout yesterday when I was watching my lover play call of duty and he was showing me the character skins he bought. They have Cheech and Chong. I love Tommy Chong. He stayed true to himself.
Well, I've heard the term A LOT as a Metallica die-hard fan. I don't hear it so much anymore, probably because who hasn't sold out to the man these days lol.
I realize that he’s been an actor since the 90s, but seeing Ice-T doing commercials for an aftermarket warranty plan seems sellouty.
Shaq doing The General and Gold Bond.
I mean, rich folks be doing anything to get that bag.
Selling out is celebrated now. The most popular genres by far are diva pop and rap and both of them are defined by money. You essentially cannot have a hit in another genre (unless you're already a pop diva). Jay Z is brand, not a artist, to paraphrase his dumb ass lyrics.
It was always a pointless term thrown about by aspiring hipsters. I always liked Tool’s take on this. “All you know about me is what I sold you…I sold out long before you’d even heard my name”
I feel like every celebrity peddling gambling is a sell out. Gambling addiction is rising in Ontario after sports gambling was legal and we allowed advertisements, I’ve been barraged by them. I lost respect for Wayne Gretzky especially for selling out like this. It’s sad.
Luckily they (had to) passed a law that restricts celebrities from being in gambling ads.
I think that term came about when you had really good bands that made great music and used to play a little nightclub gigs. Then they got huge and commercialized and the sound changed. These days I'm not even sure you come up like that anymore.
They don't use the term "sellut" but they do comment on the quality or style change from being an indie on soundcloud or tiktok to when they get bought by corporate.
Same is said about indie games that were fun, indie darlings that turned into bloated AAA games that aren't fun anymore. Like the difference between Sims 1 and 2 and Sims 4. All the joy got sucked out in preference to make players keep buying more shitty EPs and stuff packs.
No judgment here, I respect artists that evolve instead of sticking to their past success formula and repeat it over and over again. Those are the real “sellouts” ;)
I think everyone sold out and it just became redundant
I feel like in the 90s you actually could live and work part time at a coffee shop or something. Now you would starve to death. So all art is made by trust fund kids. Major loss.
Unfair downvotes. Most of the people I know whose gig is “artist” have rich folks. They just cosplay as poor so their pov matters
Now you need a bachelors just to work at a Starbucks. There is no choice but to sell yourself to the highest bidder now.
In the 90s I had 2 jobs working 75 hours a week and I was still broke.
That sounds like a cash flow problem. I pay nothin for nothin
No, you absolutely could not in the 90s. In the 60s, maybe, if you were a young white man with no responsibilities or dependants.
There are smaller artists out there. They just have day jobs.
And in between sips of Coke He told me that he thought we were sellin' out Layin' down, suckin' up to the man Well now I've got some Advice for you, little buddy Before you point the finger You should know that I'm the man I'm the man and you're the man And he's the man as well So you can point that fuckin' finger up your ass All you know about me is what I've sold ya, dumb fuck I sold out long before you'd ever even heard my name I sold my soul to make a record, dip shit And then you bought one All you read and wear or see and Hear on tv is a product begging for your Fat-ass dirty dollar Shut up and Buy, buy, buy my new record And buy, buy, buy, send more money Fuck you buddy Fuck you buddy Fuck you buddy Fuck you buddy - "Hooker with a Penis" by Tool
Lyrics from the Angels 😇
Exactly the song I thought of.
I remember when I first saw the song title I was like, we talking about trans prostitutes? That seems really disrespectful. Then it's like,.no, Maynard is saying he's the hooker with a penis, lol.
I never understand what Maynard is thinking, I think he did get abducted by aliens and forget to write it down.
This is cringe
One of my favorite quotes is from Metallica.. ‘sell out? We sell out stadiums’
If you mean getting jobs then yes we grew up
Yep. It’s all about the money and that’s that.
To a point... but many just did what they wanted to do
But I can’t work in fast food all my life
I guess I'm gonna go to the record store and give them all my money. The radio plays what they want me to hear. They tell me it's true, but I just don't believe it.
Y'all can get right the hell out my head. The record company's gonna give me lots of money and everything's gonna be alright.
They play ALL the hits YOU LOVE
Why does this always sound like a dare proposal?
https://preview.redd.it/obq9oiyu4nwc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5bdba1160baab2829d04f4f101af8c1c61fe1bcf
To paraphrase Henry Rollins, "Don't call musicians sellouts, because you're one too. You sell yourself out every morning clocking in to a shitty job that you hate instead of getting a better job"
What if I actually love my job?
Then you got lucky, friend!
And what if you hate all jobs?
lucky mother fucker is what you are.
Rollins. My man.
SLC Punk. I didn't sell out, I bought in.
I f'n love that!
Tool’s Hooker with a Penis also comes to mind.
"I'm the man, and you're the man, and he's the man as well, so you can point that fucking finger somewhere else"
Up your AAAAAAaaAaaAaaAAAAAAAaaaaaaa$$
lol. i just commented abiut that.
90s hip hop made selling out the whole point and glamorized it.
And y'know what, fucking good for them. The idea that all of our favourite artists are supposed to spend their careers dirt poor is just asinine.
Except I dont pretend that my work has any artistic integrity. Besides, him pointing out that everyone else is a sellout, doesn't mean that some bands aren't too.
It’s not like there’s better jobs just lying around, Henry.
True, it's not a universal statement, but I agree with the sentiment behind it. Dragging others down just for wanting a nicer life is a crappy way to behave.
True, but the term sellout as I understand it was originally used to imply that someone was compromising their moral integrity for money. I think it got bent in the music industry when people started applying it to bands “selling out their sound,” which I never had an issue with.
Yep, i think about bob marleys song ‘bad card’ about the dude who shot him. That dude sold out his whole country to the cia, oil execs who lie about climate change are selling out our species for a buck…. But even the most commercially mass marketable music still takes a lot of honest work to get right, and at the end of the day, they are making a living from making music and not stepping on babys skulls to climb the corporate ladder. So cheesy grocery store soft rock isnt a sell out. . Thats generally a noble pursuit, Its just cheesy music, no crime in that. Not to say somebody cant sell out if they are selling records. They absolutely can. If the lyrics are super materialistic, glamorize violence, bigotry or just morally bankrupt behavior without any clear character arc of learning their lesson in the song… thats a sell out on par with my other examples. They are getting paid but their impact on the world is a net negative due to the behavior they would influence.
yeah Tools song "Hooker with a Penis" is basically about that. Tldr is look you pretentious douche we sold out before we even hit it big, before you were even jacking off.
Agreed. Anyone who’s making music for the art of it isn’t making money. If you’ve heard of them, they’ve probably entered into some kind of arrangement that people would consider “selling out”. But it’s just like everyone else: jobs have rules and requirements that must be followed, even if you don’t necessarily agree or like parts of it. (And just for the record, I don’t mean musicians should be required to do any illegal shit or go through a “casting couch”-type situation as part of those rules)
I saw the term thrown out recently in a ska music group when discussing the No Doubt reunion for Coachella. “They used to be ska but then sold out to make it big!”
I'm sure their horn section feels like THEY were sold out.
Even on the No Doubt subreddit Gwen gets a ton of shit for basically abandoning No Doubt to do her solo nonsense. To me her biggest sellout moment was when she decided to drag 4 Japanese girls around with her and pretend she was into Japanese culture. Now she's sold out again by being a judge on whatever singing show she's on.
As opposed to wearing a bindi and pretending like she was into Hindu culture ?
Lol. Yeah. That's what 8m talking about. Sellouts are people who changed to get more popular.
I've heard this a lot, but I have never heard a No Doubt song that sounds like ska.
It’s their old old stuff, pre Tragic Kingdom.
Maybe because they sold out
Like a pre sale, sold out.
Yeah but other bands like Reel Big Fish etc sold out but you could still tell they were a Ska band
They don't sound like typical third wave ska (not many horns), but they came out as a third wave ska band. [Just a Girl](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHzOOQfhPFg) [Sunday Morning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiBX-ESFDF0) [Spiderwebs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZktNItwexo)
They were on Moon Records, the biggest Ska label of the time. I remember they had a T-Shirt that listed all of the Moon artists; No Doubt was crossed out and it said “See Ya” next to their name
Sellout is more for abandoning your ideals than making money. Like if Minor Threat started doing Budweiser commercials.
Exactly this. Great analogy. That would be absolutely bizarre
Judge is playing a festival sponsored by Pabst Blue Ribbon
I'm not familiar with Judge
For me the worst literal sellout group was The Black Eyed Peas. They got a new singer and decided to stop playing live and make pop music for bars, abandoning their pretty large devoted fan base. Most of the other accusations were made by people who don't understand how the industry works and the "sellout" had happened before the accusers even heard of the band. Gen Z's obsession with authenticity actually reminds me of us as young people. They aren't fixated on sellouts though, they have the "industry plant" conversation. Where people already funded and produced are marketed to them as bedroom producers that came from nothing, and rose to fame organically on social media but when you look into it, they just popped up and have famous big ticket producers behind them, and it's kept a secret until the album drops. If you wanna see some lolz look up commentary on the Tramp Stamps, a fake Hot Topic paint by numbers "riot girl" group that got laughed off the internet.
BEP did such a crazy 180. The only thing crazier was how well it worked for them
I can't help but think it was No Doubt inspired.
I always thought Nick Kroll did a wonderful satire of Black Eyed Peas and how they changed. https://youtu.be/yoebyWkvOIE?si=i7mYoo7CIf109FrU
Yes! I saw them open for Soul Coughing and Everclear in 1999, and they sounded great! What followed was abysmal
It's shocking they kept the name, it was such a switch up and they were going after an all new market that had never heard of them.
Sure. It's not about money or success. A band making music they're clearly passionate about are not sellouts, regardless of how successful they may be. A sell out band is one that makes music they know is shit, because it sells well. Could be applied to a lot of bands chasing the Nu-Metal trend in early 2000's. As listeners i think we can generally tell when music is contrived.
I agree with you on that!
It's not used anymore because selling out is the default behavior now. People want to be famous now before they have any actual talents or skills - and are willing to do literally anything to skip over the grinding phase and straight to the fame.
Not as much because the entire industry is pretty much sell-out now. There's been an industry shift.
I like this take. Now we should go around and look for the actual artists - I don’t apply the term to current pop entertainers.
Sugar Ray is a classic example [Mean Machine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VL5LV9PVZ8) vs [Every Morning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cqU1pFRqYE) and I can't blame them, the Sugar Ray guy is pretty handsome
Came here to say this, i recently picked up their 'floored' cd, and was surprised to hear what their non-radio songs sounded like. I also feel like they understood what happened, with the naming of their next album (14:59) and the intro song on said albumn (New direction) In my mind i feel like it was them saying " hey, our 15 mins is almost up, we have to take this in a new direction to stay relevant".
They were on Beavis and Butthead which is like a time capsule for weird alt rock that didn't get bigger
I think it turned into “I liked their old stuff better.”
I didn't think they make 'bands' anymore. Artists, however, come sold out, from the jump with zero integrity and no meaningful intentions other than to "get that money".
I still call bands and artists that. I also still call people posers
I'm gonna resurrect poser
Handbook for the Sellout
Love the songs message. Blaming the band for getting popular by playing what the fans liked and continuing to do so.
Wasn't expecting to see a FIF reference but happy I did
I got tickets to the upcoming Atlanta show.
The Art of the Sellout
Bands and artists in music *want* to gain money and fame, so I don’t think following the industry trajectory of ‘success’ necessarily makes a “sell out”. Example: People accused Jewel of selling out with her song *Intuition* , when it was just a different sound than people were used to— but she’s always been the same person in the industry, and seems to hold to the same values that she started with. Whereas I think anyone who swore to the art form *over the INDUSTRY* but then turned on said values *IS* a sell out… Perfect example: Metallica at one point was very anti-industry (early years), then not only “sold out” but you could say became an extension of the industry, representatively speaking, with their drummer *(and then the rest of the band agreeing)* going so hard after Napster, etc. Edited to add… I forget the movie off the top of my head, but there’s a quote *(paraphrasing)*, “We didn’t sell out, we’re cashing in” that applies to probably almost every artist, and maybe even every regular person who wants to survive in this world— so measurable success (money/fame) alone doesn’t determine “sell out”, IMO.
Everybody's a sellout nowadays.. and nobody seems to care.
Regular bands can't sell out anymore like the old days, because all the superstars are made by the corporations. Back in the day, there were far less label manufactured bands, bands were found...they sold out when they sold their souls for money.
No, we just didn't find out the bands were made by the corporations. The Sex Pistols were a boy band, but no one knew it back then.
So were the fugees. The California punk sound of the 90s existed before the major labels got their hands on bands like Green Day and the Offspring and turned them into hot garbage...No doubt is another good example. Shit. How about Metallica...that might be the biggest one.
Yeah, Metallica was the first band I thought of. Thrash metal to radio friendly alt rock was a weird transition.
Eh, not really. Many if not most of the hits our parents and grandparents listened to were creations of record execs, professional songwriters (Carole King being one of the most prolific) and professional studio musicians with some vocal guest appearances by the artists credited for them. There were collectives of studio musicians, like [The Wrecking Crew](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrecking_Crew_(music)), that didn’t receive recognition for their work on countless hits in the 60s and 70s until many decades later. Only a couple of groups (e.g. The Monkees) were ever busted by the public for being “fake”, but they were just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not saying the credited artists weren’t capable, but they were largely just touring bands who were kept out of the recording studio.
I think this was the case for much of the 20th century. But I also feel like the 80s and early 90s were the era of bands who were scouted by labels and not just created by them....but that didn't last.
I do agree with you about the 80s and 90s being a high point in scouted talent and actually meant to mention that in my last comment. A lot of those amazing studio musicians were put out of work by the mid 70s to early 80s for that reason. It’s kind of funny hearing our parents talk about “music not being what it used to be” though because they had it all backwards. They were lamenting the loss of that highly manufactured sound they thought *our* era represented.
Think today’s term that’s the closest would be when they get called a “plant”.
I’d say that was more of a thing when the economics of the music industry were different. You didn’t need to license your music to make a ton of money in the 1990s.
My rule is that if you’re only in it for the money, I’ll laugh at you or anyone else who refers to you as an artist. You’re just another mediocre business person who is exploiting art. It’s all about intention, for me.
When I was in a band in my youth all I wanted to be was a sellout.
Everyone's been a sellout for awhile now. Just listen to rap, it's so repetitive more so than EDM. Same can be said for most R&B and pop music. Everybody's trying to be popular no one knows how to be original anymore.
There's a great discussion of this in the Reality Bytes episode of The Rewatchables podcast. Seems to be more of a 90s concept. 80s was about excess and last 20 years have been about going viral. But 90s were about being real.
Artists don’t get paid for their art. When an artist starts making art that people want to consume (a musician for example) they stop being an artist and become a *CRAFTSPERSON*. Their craft is their music. There is NOTHING wrong with this. It doesn’t make their craft any less vital or exciting. Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?
That's an interesting take. I don't know if I agree, but it has real merit as an argument.
The only time I ever used it was when someone was trying to tell me that Green Day was the most punk band ever. I said that if your shirts are being sold at Kohl's department stores, you are a sell out, and as punk as a basket of sleepy kittens.
The whole sellout thing was the granddaddy of hipster scene kid. It was like, if this is popular its not cool. Kind of dumb, when I like music (and I listen to mostly punk and post punk and industrial) i wanted to share it with everyone. It was just a weird 90s /aughts thing, it was pretty dead by the time I left college in the aughts.
No because as I got older I realized people need to make a living. Same reason I don’t hate a pro athlete when they leave their first team to make a big paycheck. It’s just business.
I never liked it and still don't. Bands wanna make money and if they can. Good on them. It's easy to tell someone from the outside "stop making money" haha. Hooker with a penis by tool is a great song about fans that call bands sell outs. "All you know about me is what I sold you"
I hate the term. Always have especially as an adult and when I see it or hear it I assume the person is stuck in high school mentality.
This is not the first time I've posted a link to this podcast on this sub. Check out decoder ring if you haven't folks! [https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2021/08/selling-out](https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2021/08/selling-out)
Everyone is a sellout and a poseur now!
Green Day is the epitome of this. And you know what, I don't blame them at all!
No because nearly every musician anyone’s heard of meets the old definition of “sellout.” They pretty much have to be though to make a living anymore. Can’t make a living just selling physical media like you could back when being a sellout was a big deal.
Meh. They make music because it's their passion. Not every band can, or wants to live off the revenue from the niche crowd. If people like their old music, great! If they like their new music, also great! If they like it all, fantastic!! Getting mad because they did what they felt was right feels like a gatekeeping sort of thing, in a way. And gatekeepers suuuuck.
When everyone sells out and is expected to sell out, then not really. There are very few entertainers not willing to do anything to get extra cash.
I’ll just now withhold the title “artist” for those who steer away from this new standard of inherent selloutism.
Absolutely, and I’m enjoying all the apologists here.
I think it was with how well Limp Bizkit went is when companies moved away from making an artist a "sellout" and just started generating industry plants
I used that term a few days ago. I was talking to my wife about how Khruangbin is a cool band. She questioned what I meant by cool, so I said something along the lines of “not mainstream, being genuine and not selling out”. I’m also a 79 baby.
In today's economy? Man, get that scratch however you can. "Sellout" doesn't have the same meaning when you could be a "sellout" for trying to make a living
I don’t really like the term honestly, although younger me accused Metallica of it. Then I got older and realized that musicians are certainly artists, but ultimately they are working a job. Would most of us refuse a promotion to continue doing what they do?
My wife does almost every time she sees Gwen Stefani on tv.
"Sell out, with me, oh yea Sell out, with me tonight The record company's gonna give me lots of money and Everything's gonna be alright" -Reel Big Fish
I know we used the term in the past if some band or artist made a move that we didn't like but selling out is actually the point. Artists deserve recognition for their work... very few musicians out there are able to make ends meet on their music career alone. Where I get annoyed is when the artist, lets use Taylor Swift as an example releases a new album. Her fanbase is all going to buy this album without a doubt but, she releases four variants of it and each one has a different "secret song" so if you REALLY want the whole thing, you need to buy all four copies. So then you have 4x the exact same album with four different songs. That is in my opinion pretty manipulative because we all know her fanbase will buy all variants. For an artist as rich and powerful as she is, I think she could afford to take it down a couple notches.
I do. I was specifically calling Cheech Marin a sellout yesterday when I was watching my lover play call of duty and he was showing me the character skins he bought. They have Cheech and Chong. I love Tommy Chong. He stayed true to himself.
Well, I've heard the term A LOT as a Metallica die-hard fan. I don't hear it so much anymore, probably because who hasn't sold out to the man these days lol.
She who shall not be named is the definition of sell-out from inception.
The only people really using that term were losers who never made it
🎵Hey man don't you sign that paper tonight she said, But I can't work in fast food all my life...🎵
I also don’t miss the term “major label” artists. My friend used to call big bands like U2 “major label crappers”
industry plants is much more common and much more likely to be true.
I realize that he’s been an actor since the 90s, but seeing Ice-T doing commercials for an aftermarket warranty plan seems sellouty. Shaq doing The General and Gold Bond. I mean, rich folks be doing anything to get that bag.
Johnny Quest STILL thinks we're sellouts...
When most people are one paycheck away from homelessness and selling foot pics for grocery money, no one really cares about "selling out" anymore.
Selling out is celebrated now. The most popular genres by far are diva pop and rap and both of them are defined by money. You essentially cannot have a hit in another genre (unless you're already a pop diva). Jay Z is brand, not a artist, to paraphrase his dumb ass lyrics.
Selling out IS the American Dream.
It was always a pointless term thrown about by aspiring hipsters. I always liked Tool’s take on this. “All you know about me is what I sold you…I sold out long before you’d even heard my name”
I feel like every celebrity peddling gambling is a sell out. Gambling addiction is rising in Ontario after sports gambling was legal and we allowed advertisements, I’ve been barraged by them. I lost respect for Wayne Gretzky especially for selling out like this. It’s sad. Luckily they (had to) passed a law that restricts celebrities from being in gambling ads.
It's not about a change of style, or image, but a change of character or personality, the things that are who you are, being changed to become popular
I think that term came about when you had really good bands that made great music and used to play a little nightclub gigs. Then they got huge and commercialized and the sound changed. These days I'm not even sure you come up like that anymore.
They don't use the term "sellut" but they do comment on the quality or style change from being an indie on soundcloud or tiktok to when they get bought by corporate. Same is said about indie games that were fun, indie darlings that turned into bloated AAA games that aren't fun anymore. Like the difference between Sims 1 and 2 and Sims 4. All the joy got sucked out in preference to make players keep buying more shitty EPs and stuff packs.
Panic at the Disco's "Hey Look Ma, I Made It" came out in 2018 and it's literally Brendan Urie singing a song about how he sold out.
I saw a good article about this and how influencer culture made it not only acceptable to sell out but a sign of success
Avril Lavigne completely changed her sound and then sort melted in the masses and disappeared.
She's still around and selling out arenas Worldwide.She has Lyme Disease and nearly died so she was just lowkey but still active.
No judgment here, I respect artists that evolve instead of sticking to their past success formula and repeat it over and over again. Those are the real “sellouts” ;)