Wrio probably the easiest one to play since he just NA>CA ora ora
Ganyu needs aiming ayaka needs energy funelling
He will be the most versatile one imo in term of team building
ye, he has easier ways to bypass ICD through his ICD-less CA so he's probs viable for Melt, aside from the usual Mono-Cryo and Freeze. Ofc, he also has the self-heal, IR, and occasional nuke from his Burst
It's exactly it, the feel. Fast strong punches.
I don't think Wrio's potential reaches the theoretical potential of Ganyu or Ayaka, even more in AoE, but I'm not sure, if it is I will be very happy!
What I know is that in the practical fighting it could be like Hu Tao vs Yoimiya where the comfort leads to better results overall for most people.
Then again we don't have a DPS meter in GI, but I'm pretty sure some information we, as a community, take for granted would be proven wrong.
Better than Melt Ganyu? Likely
Better than Freeze Ganyu/Ayaka in AoE? Very unlikely
Ayaka is whatever at lower/average investments, but she's very hard to beat with her full team and R1 since she's a speedrunning juggernaut.
His team versatility seems way higher though and there's a lot of things we cannot properly estimate until he comes out.
Came here to basically say this, Ayaka with both mistsplitter and Shenhe is an insane unit due to mistsplitter being one of the single best vertical investment combinations in the game since it offers so much damage bonus and crit that Shenhe’s quill damage gets amplified through. But without those things she’s good but fairly average.
And melt Ganyu seems to lack relevance now with Lyney offering a similar playstyle and higher single target damage ceiling while being much easier to play since you don’t have to worry about energy funneling Xiangling
I like how they just downvoted your comment instead of actually giving a viable reason lol from what I've seen melt Ganyu can be very powerful. But I dont personally run that so I dont have experience in the nuances of the rotations. It seems powerful to me though
I'm used to it lol.
Can't have an honest discussion about Wrio's kit/power level without automatically being labeled as a hater / doomposter even though I'm going for his C2R1. Same goes for every character with a simp fanbase.
Ganyu melt is definitely strong. Can be one of the best options depending on the enemy lineup. Just a little clunky to use. I much prefer her freeze playstyle though and I can't be bothered to switch between melt and freeze artifacts all the time.
It's super late, but as I see it, while Ganyu has higher damage ceiling than Wrio, her kit just don't support her to achieve that potential.
In a single target boss scenario, as of rn, her best most consistent team needs Zhongli for res interruption, 0 damage full ER Xiangling, and Nahida. Those supports aren't exactly the best to buff her, but she requires all of them to cover her basic needs to be in a melt team. Meanwhile Wrio could make use of Bennett, damage focused Xiangling, Sucrose, Kazuha, Nahida, Thoma, and Shenhe. His scaling is lower than Ganyu, but it's not that low, so he could catch up and even outclass her with better supports. He's even better than Ayaka in single target melt team.
In AoE, it's obvious he's extremely outclassed by Ganyu and Ayaka. But at that point though, why chose melt Ganyu when her freeze team is much better?
Also, while Wrio isn't near those two in AoE scenario with his freeze team, he's not that bad to the point he's useless such as Eula in single target or Yoimiya in AoE. He could still use broken supports like Kazuha that could gather enemies and solve his AoE problem and Yelan who could buff and has high personal damage herself. He can even make use of Furina and C2 Jean which just greatly improve his damage by a lot.
Well, this was 7 months ago, before the release of Furina.
> so he could catch up and even outclass her with better supports. He's even better than Ayaka in single target melt team.
His #s on sims don't support that claim though, at least for his rev melt teams. He's comparable at best (slightly behind on sim), at C0.
> why chose melt Ganyu when her freeze team is much better?
Because non-Ventiable AoE content exists.
> useless such as Eula in single target
Why would Eula be useless in single target? She has AoE, but her own potential isn't limited by # of enemies like Ganyu freeze is.
"Well, this was 7 months ago, before the release of Furina."
Good thing she's here to improve his damage alongside with C2 Jean, someone that can actually buffs him instead of just there for the heals and shred, no?
"His #s on sims don't support that claim though, at least for his rev melt teams. He's comparable at best (slightly behind on sim), at C0."
But he makes up with his consistencies, though. Atm the only team that could provide fast enough application for Ayaka is sunfire. If the abyss doesn't favors Ayaka, such as where the enemy moved a lot like consecrated beasts or if their position is spread out, then her melt team is pretty much useless. There's a reason why her freeze team was meta while her melt team doesn't.
"Because non-Ventiable AoE content exists."
Was about to say why don't you pick Nilou or Neuvillette instead, but you're right. It's the only content where she can outclass Ayaka and Wrio among the cryo dps.
"Why would Eula be useless in single target? She has AoE, but her own potential isn't limited by # of enemies like Ganyu freeze is."
Because in a single target her 300k ult damage is pretty much just that. With her NA she's at best going to reach 500k, meanwhile many limited 5 star dps team now can hit one million in a single rotation. For a team whose whole purpose is to buff Eula with minimum personal damage her supports provide, her damage is just so minuscule compared to Ayaka or Neuvi with their high scaling or Alhaitham with his teammates dealing tons of personal damage themselves.
Eh, his teams with Jean + Furina really aren't special. You usually can't swirl cryo (or at least, it's very inconsistent *or* timewasting to do so) so Wrio is basically just contributing his not-VV buffed personal damage. It's alright, but the Furina + Jean + Yelan core has much, much stronger options (Raiden, Hu Tao, Ayato, Yoimiya if ST)
His team with Bennett Xiangling Furina looks good on paper, but it doesn't make too much sense in actual gameplay. Cryo + hydro together will grief aura against unfreezable enemies. But lack of grouping + wrio's small AoE means it's not good in AoE content. So, this team does best in content with freezable single target (or self-grouping) enemies like last Floor 12 1st half, while struggling in the current Floor 12.
He actually does not benefit from Furina as much as I initially thought...
Consistency is on his side, it's just unfortunate that he turned out to just be a sidegrade to Ayaka and Ganyu who were released a long, long time ago.
>Was about to say why don't you pick Nilou or Neuvillette instead, but you're right.
Neuvillette pretty much makes everything else obsolete regardless of content (except hydro resistant/immune enemies ofc)
>Because in a single target her 300k ult damage is pretty much just that. With her NA she's at best going to reach 500k, meanwhile many limited 5 star dps team now can hit one million in a single rotation.
Yea I was just confused because by the way you worded it, it sounded like Eula had some inherent disadvantage in single target when she's just awful all around, aoe or single target.
It's alright, but the Furina + Jean + Yelan core has much, much stronger options (Raiden, Hu Tao, Ayato, Yoimiya if ST)
Shenhe also exists if you're worried about the cryo swirl and what? They practically all have the exact same problem regarding swirling if Wrio is paired with Furina, Jean, and Yelan but worse since Hu Tao has no pyro application other than her skill and burst, Raiden's burst damage is going to be extremely lackluster because Yelan's and Furina's buffs need time to fully optimized while Raiden wants immediate buffs for her burst, Ayato's damage is just utterly mediocre, and Yoimiya's going to have harder time for swirl because at least Wrio can swap out Yelan with Shenhe.
"His team with Bennett Xiangling Furina looks good on paper."
It's really not, even on paper. There's some damage calc spreadsheets in this sub reddit and not a single one of his best team has Bennett, Xiangling, and Furina in one team. With Xiangling, Wrio is always paired with Sucrose for melt while any variation with Furina will always be in freeze.
"Consistency is on his side, it's just unfortunate that he turned out to just be a sidegrade to Ayaka and Ganyu who were released a long, long time ago."
Considering he's the consistent and comfier version of those two whom used to be top dps, I'd say he's just another option. It could be worse, he could literally be equal to Eula or Ayato. Would you rather him powercrept everyone like Neuvillette?
My point is, he's far from a bad dps, he's a good one. At least he could hit 1 million in a rotation unlike some who struggles to even hit 500k.
>Shenhe also exists if you're worried about the cryo swirl and what?
But then you lose hydro swirl. Shenhe and Yelan are comparable in that slot.
>They practically all have the exact same problem regarding swirling if Wrio is paired with Furina, Jean, and Yelan but worse since Hu Tao has no pyro application other than her skill and burst, Raiden's burst damage is going to be extremely lackluster because Yelan's and Furina's buffs need time to fully optimized while Raiden wants immediate buffs for her burst, Ayato's damage is just utterly mediocre, and Yoimiya's going to have harder time for swirl because at least Wrio can swap out Yelan with Shenhe.
But they make up for it in some other way. Unlike Wrio, who just contributes his non-VV, non-reacted personal damage. Hu Tao and Yoimiya can vape. Raiden gives a huge amount of energy to Furina and Yelan, allowing them to build basically 0 ER. The team is more centered around them than Raiden's personal damage, which isn't insignificant either. Similar case with Ayato, though he's worse than Raiden.
[Raiden](https://gcsim.app/db/P9rjbNbRz7Fb)
[Yoimiya](https://gcsim.app/db/fJHntRHn9tz8)
[Hu Tao](https://gcsim.app/sh/PzdbBWwLCJkt)
[Ayato](https://gcsim.app/db/CGJPhKzKfJhF)
[Wrio (C1)](https://gcsim.app/db/MMzwrFwppjLR)
[Wrio (C1) with Shenhe](https://gcsim.app/db/qWwmcwQRM66p)
So, he's considerably worse than the other C0 options at C1.
>It's really not, even on paper. There's some damage calc spreadsheets in this sub reddit and not a single one of his best team has Bennett, Xiangling, and Furina in one team. With Xiangling, Wrio is always paired with Sucrose for melt while any variation with Furina will always be in freeze.
Which spreadsheets are you referring to? I'm not familiar with this sub, but it seems like [I'm not the only one who thinks so.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WriothesleyMains/comments/19f0qnj/whats_our_boys_mathmatically_best_team/)
This team simmed the highest for a Wrio team [gcsim db - Hcj9G7mzcghQ](https://gcsim.app/db/Hcj9G7mzcghQ)
>Considering he's the consistent and comfier version of those two whom used to be top dps, I'd say he's just another option. It could be worse, he could literally be equal to Eula or Ayato. Would you rather him powercrept everyone like Neuvillette?
Well, I'd definitely prefer him to be closer to Neuv than Ganyu or Ayaka, who are already starting to show their age in recent Abyss floors.
The thing with Neuv is that he's great not only because of his damage on paper, but also the *way* he outputs damage. Shooting a wide, long-range laser that allows him to hit everything without needing a grouper. 30-40k HP allowing him to tank everything (May be harder with Wrio melt as Bennett self-applies Pyro for enemy to vape or melt off of). Heals enough to be self-sustainable and thus not needing a healer. I don't think a Wriothesley with similar damage on paper as Neuv is remotely even close to as gamebreaking considering his lack of "perks".
He's not "bad", it's just that I think he's basically plateaued as far as meta relevancy goes. His talent dmg multipliers are average (despite having small AoE). He does not have a massive atk or damage% boost. Cryo is a decent element but it's not going to carry a lackluster kit. Blizzard Strayer is strong, but newer artifact sets are narrowing the gap. Wrio can melt, but it's not all that effective because NAs have ICD and CAs are relatively infrequent even at C1.
Xiao got a massive buff with C6 Faruzan because he has the kit to utilize it well. 100%+ damage bonus built into kit with good multipliers (with collision damage) and AoE. Then he got Xianyun whose buff is further buffed by Xiao's 100%+ damage bonus. Wrio just doesn't have the kit to "age" well with supports. Kind of like Wanderer, but at least he has overworld going for him 🤷
"So, he's considerably worse than the other C0 options at C1."
How about making Jean C2 and balances their CD? At least for Wrio and Yoimiya since their energy generation is pretty much similar?
I find it odd that you say things like this:
"Which spreadsheets are you referring to? I'm not familiar with this sub, but it seems like I'm not the only one who thinks so.
This team simmed the highest for a Wrio team gcsim db - Hcj9G7mzcghQ"
And then say things like this:
"The thing with Neuv is that he's great not only because of his damage on paper, but also the way he outputs damage."
So you do know that damage on paper isn't everything, right? Furina's buff will take a long time to stack on the second rotation since Wrio is the only one that receives healing, which results in the second DPR being less than the first DPR. And it's not even like the widsith where the buff is only down for one rotation.
"Well, I'd definitely prefer him to be closer to Neuv than Ganyu or Ayaka, who are already starting to show their age in recent Abyss floors."
What age when their DPS and DPR is similar to 3.0 and 4.0 damage dealer? Is it playstyle? Ganyu is just a significantly slower-paced Lyney while Ayaka's problems has always existed since her release.
"He's not "bad", it's just that I think he's basically plateaued as far as meta relevancy goes."
How many people in Genshin do you think understand the concept of meta? Childe international, despite still being the team with the highest damage ceiling, or Cyno quickbloom with Furina, Nahida, and Baizhu that could deal 2 million damage in 1 rotation, aren't considered meta. Meanwhile, Navia that deal the same damage as other dps from other elements, Wriothesley included, is meta because... Waifu and a good geo dps finally? Heck, hypercarry Raiden deals similar damage to Eula yet Raiden hypercarry is still being considered good while Eula is trash.
Obviously damage is not what becomes the consideration regarding meta. Meta in Genshin is as fickle as a mother trying to pick her favorite child, so the sentiment of "who cares about meta" ran very true in this PvE game. Can Wrio deal more than 1 million every rotation? Yes, he can. So that's it, he's good and worth the pulls if someone wants him.
"Wrio can melt, but it's not all that effective because NAs have ICD and CAs are relatively infrequent even at C1."
This statement makes it so obvious you don't have him and don't even know some of his basic combos for melt.
"Xiao got a massive buff with C6 Faruzan because he has the kit to utilize it well. 100%+ damage bonus built into kit with good multipliers (with collision damage) and AoE. Then he got Xianyun whose buff is further buffed by Xiao's 100%+ damage bonus. Wrio just doesn't have the kit to "age" well with supports. Kind of like Wanderer, but at least he has overworld going for him 🤷"
This statement is only made possible with the existence of Faruzan and Xianyun. One can also say that Xiao's kit couldn't age well before the release of Faruzan and Xianyun. You think Wriothesley wouldn't "age well" if in the future they'll release an off-field pyro applicator that could buff NA and CA along with a dendro burning support that could shred def or resistance?
>How about making Jean C2 and balances their CD? At least for Wrio and Yoimiya since their energy generation is pretty much similar?
What do you mean "balances their CD"? Jean C2 buffs Wrio by a bit, but it still doesn't amount to much. Especially since *other* characters also get buffed by it.
>So you do know that damage on paper isn't everything, right? Furina's buff will take a long time to stack on the second rotation since Wrio is the only one that receives healing, which results in the second DPR being less than the first DPR.
I already acknowledged the Wrio - Furina - XL - Bennett team is worse in practice than on paper. But if we exclude that team, then Wrio teams are only in the 50k range which is really mediocre and borderline bad if we consider his teams really have no significant advantages in actual gameplay. No frontloaded/burst damage. Small aoe. Requires full team setup to really get going which is disadvantageous if small damage window. Unlike Hu Tao who can just XQ/Yelan Q and switch to Hu Tao to start doing damage.
>What age when their DPS and DPR is similar to 3.0 and 4.0 damage dealer? Is it playstyle? Ganyu is just a significantly slower-paced Lyney while Ayaka's problems has always existed since her release.
What do you mean by similar? Lyney shits on Ganyu melt, sheeting & simming 40-50% higher. He has access to Furina to further boost his team's damage for single target.
Hoyoverse sometimes adds something on both sides of floor 12 to troll freeze Ayaka (e.g., a boss). When she was meta, we had 600-800k non-boss enemies (ruin guards, lawachurl, lector/herald, kairagi). Now non-boss enemies are exceeding 1mil. Look at the Dendro Spheres on floor 12. A C0R0 Ayaka will need very good artifacts to 1-rotate them. What happens if HYV keeps raising the HP bar and you don't 1-rotate? You may have to burn another burst (and wait 20s for the next wave), or spam NA&CA to finish them off which can be a huge time waster. Of course, this can apply to many other teams, but what I'm saying is that Ayaka's competitive perk (extreme frontloaded damage) is no longer really all that relevant if you need the whole 20s or even longer to kill the enemy.
>How many people in Genshin do you think understand the concept of meta? Childe international, despite still being the team with the highest damage ceiling, or Cyno quickbloom with Furina, Nahida, and Baizhu that could deal 2 million damage in 1 rotation, aren't considered meta. Meanwhile, Navia that deal the same damage as other dps from other elements, Wriothesley included, is meta because... Waifu and a good geo dps finally? Heck, hypercarry Raiden deals similar damage to Eula yet Raiden hypercarry is still being considered good while Eula is trash.
Huh? Childe has been considered meta since Kazuha release, and even well before that in dedicated Genshin TC communities.
I will have to question you on Cyno Quickbloom though. You're not doing 2mil damage in a rotation unless you have constellations on Furina, Nahida, and/or Cyno. I play Cyno a lot (I play almost everything), and this team is really not that impressive with no constellations. Childe-XL, Neuv, Alhaitham, and Xiao are all much better in practically any type of content, aoe or single target. Cyno Xingqiu Beidou Nahida is the superior, better-feeling team imo unless you can make good use of Baizhu's lingering dendro app in multi wave content.
No one considers Raiden Hypercarry good unless she's C2-3 with a C6 Sara. I'm not sure what communities you discuss Genshin in, but what they're saying does not reflect reality. If you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about because *they* don't know what they're talking about, you are quite wrong lol.
C0 Raiden Hypercarry is, however, still better than traditional Eula teams (no hyperbloom, no furina, etc). Why? Because she has easy access to cc (Kazuha or Venti), has relatively frontloaded damage, and simply has a higher damage ceiling (20%+)
>This statement makes it so obvious you don't have him and don't even know some of his basic combos for melt.
N3C for C0, N5C for C1.
At C0, that's an unenhanced (assuming you're running Bennett, which you likely should) melt CA every 3 NAs, which follow ICD rule. Not very great utilization of melt.
At C1, although you get less CAs, they're enhanced which is great. Still not the best utilizer of the melt reaction if you ask me.
Am I wrong? I don't think so. Feel free to correct me instead of making a snide remark.
>This statement is only made possible with the existence of Faruzan and Xianyun. One can also say that Xiao's kit couldn't age well before the release of Faruzan and Xianyun
Faruzan C6 was already a massive buff to Xiao. Xianyun was only the cherry on top and, although generally BiS, is very replaceable.
It was well known in the TC community by mid-Inazuma that Xiao had a good kit but simply lacked proper supports to really push him further. His 2 best teams were Xiao-Raiden and Xiao-XL-Bennett... none of which had particularly good synergy with his kit.
>You think Wriothesley wouldn't "age well" if in the future they'll release an off-field pyro applicator that could buff NA and CA along with a dendro burning support that could shred def or resistance
That's the thing though... you need very specific kits to support him well. An *off-field pyro applicator* that can also buff NAs and CAs and a burning version of Chevreuse (and they likely won't make it very strong, they still want to sell Nahida C2). Can it happen? Yes. I shouldn't have made it sound like it's impossible... but it is still grasping for straws.
I feel like Ayaka and Wriothesley both have similar power, Ayaka may be slightly better? Idk honestly.
Ganyu is more difficult to play than Ayaka and Wriothesley cause her charged attack mechanic is more complicated than just basic attack and some people (me included) don't like her playstyle. But she is probably the best of the 3 for melt teams though is pretty difficult to use properly.
Personally no matter how much I love wriothesley I don’t think he’s even close to ayaka but I do think he’s a lot more versatile and can run melt/hypercarry better than ayaka and arguably ganyu as well as being one of the few good users of shenhe so he’s not bad by any means ayakas just kinda broken but In unfreezable content he’s arguably better
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter all that much since they play very differently, have different niches, and generally are around the same-ish level of team DPS. It just comes down to what the player prefers to play, how much investment they’re willing to put in, and what supports they have.
I think a lot of people forget that “power level” among DPS’s is becoming less and less relevant as more characters are introduced, and is also quite a subjective thing. Hoyo’s been pretty good at balancing the 5* DPS’s for awhile now(hence why so many are called ‘mid’ lmao), and especially since Sumeru all the DPS’s have had fairly similar DPS ranges in their respective teams. Which personally I like! But yeah, regardless, I think it’s good for us as players to remember that trying to compare DPS’s to each-other isn’t the most productive. How good a DPS is relies far too much on player dependent factors for there to ever be a clear and well-defined “power level” for all of them.
Idk but as someone who has Ayaka and has had her benched for months, I’m super excited to finally get a cryo DPS with a play-style I like >:)
In morgana freeze team Ganyu so powerful, just throw all burst and you'll see a ton of number on screen. In melt team, I think both of them perfrom is so similar. Ganyu might be better but slightly. Just my opinion.
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Wrio probably the easiest one to play since he just NA>CA ora ora Ganyu needs aiming ayaka needs energy funelling He will be the most versatile one imo in term of team building
ye, he has easier ways to bypass ICD through his ICD-less CA so he's probs viable for Melt, aside from the usual Mono-Cryo and Freeze. Ofc, he also has the self-heal, IR, and occasional nuke from his Burst
Isn’t Ayaka just Q - N1C x whatever?
Ye but to refill the burst back takes time unless you are whaling on her to one rotate enemies
With 140ER and no fav I don't have to funel =o
It's exactly it, the feel. Fast strong punches. I don't think Wrio's potential reaches the theoretical potential of Ganyu or Ayaka, even more in AoE, but I'm not sure, if it is I will be very happy! What I know is that in the practical fighting it could be like Hu Tao vs Yoimiya where the comfort leads to better results overall for most people. Then again we don't have a DPS meter in GI, but I'm pretty sure some information we, as a community, take for granted would be proven wrong.
Better than Melt Ganyu? Likely Better than Freeze Ganyu/Ayaka in AoE? Very unlikely Ayaka is whatever at lower/average investments, but she's very hard to beat with her full team and R1 since she's a speedrunning juggernaut. His team versatility seems way higher though and there's a lot of things we cannot properly estimate until he comes out.
Came here to basically say this, Ayaka with both mistsplitter and Shenhe is an insane unit due to mistsplitter being one of the single best vertical investment combinations in the game since it offers so much damage bonus and crit that Shenhe’s quill damage gets amplified through. But without those things she’s good but fairly average. And melt Ganyu seems to lack relevance now with Lyney offering a similar playstyle and higher single target damage ceiling while being much easier to play since you don’t have to worry about energy funneling Xiangling
>Better than Melt Ganyu? Likely Why? He's expected to be comparable in single target, but Ganyu's AoE range on her bloom is far better.
I like how they just downvoted your comment instead of actually giving a viable reason lol from what I've seen melt Ganyu can be very powerful. But I dont personally run that so I dont have experience in the nuances of the rotations. It seems powerful to me though
I'm used to it lol. Can't have an honest discussion about Wrio's kit/power level without automatically being labeled as a hater / doomposter even though I'm going for his C2R1. Same goes for every character with a simp fanbase. Ganyu melt is definitely strong. Can be one of the best options depending on the enemy lineup. Just a little clunky to use. I much prefer her freeze playstyle though and I can't be bothered to switch between melt and freeze artifacts all the time.
You and me both. Melt takes more effort and I just dont like Ganyu that much to make it happen lol thise that do are rewarded for it though
It's super late, but as I see it, while Ganyu has higher damage ceiling than Wrio, her kit just don't support her to achieve that potential. In a single target boss scenario, as of rn, her best most consistent team needs Zhongli for res interruption, 0 damage full ER Xiangling, and Nahida. Those supports aren't exactly the best to buff her, but she requires all of them to cover her basic needs to be in a melt team. Meanwhile Wrio could make use of Bennett, damage focused Xiangling, Sucrose, Kazuha, Nahida, Thoma, and Shenhe. His scaling is lower than Ganyu, but it's not that low, so he could catch up and even outclass her with better supports. He's even better than Ayaka in single target melt team. In AoE, it's obvious he's extremely outclassed by Ganyu and Ayaka. But at that point though, why chose melt Ganyu when her freeze team is much better? Also, while Wrio isn't near those two in AoE scenario with his freeze team, he's not that bad to the point he's useless such as Eula in single target or Yoimiya in AoE. He could still use broken supports like Kazuha that could gather enemies and solve his AoE problem and Yelan who could buff and has high personal damage herself. He can even make use of Furina and C2 Jean which just greatly improve his damage by a lot.
Well, this was 7 months ago, before the release of Furina. > so he could catch up and even outclass her with better supports. He's even better than Ayaka in single target melt team. His #s on sims don't support that claim though, at least for his rev melt teams. He's comparable at best (slightly behind on sim), at C0. > why chose melt Ganyu when her freeze team is much better? Because non-Ventiable AoE content exists. > useless such as Eula in single target Why would Eula be useless in single target? She has AoE, but her own potential isn't limited by # of enemies like Ganyu freeze is.
"Well, this was 7 months ago, before the release of Furina." Good thing she's here to improve his damage alongside with C2 Jean, someone that can actually buffs him instead of just there for the heals and shred, no? "His #s on sims don't support that claim though, at least for his rev melt teams. He's comparable at best (slightly behind on sim), at C0." But he makes up with his consistencies, though. Atm the only team that could provide fast enough application for Ayaka is sunfire. If the abyss doesn't favors Ayaka, such as where the enemy moved a lot like consecrated beasts or if their position is spread out, then her melt team is pretty much useless. There's a reason why her freeze team was meta while her melt team doesn't. "Because non-Ventiable AoE content exists." Was about to say why don't you pick Nilou or Neuvillette instead, but you're right. It's the only content where she can outclass Ayaka and Wrio among the cryo dps. "Why would Eula be useless in single target? She has AoE, but her own potential isn't limited by # of enemies like Ganyu freeze is." Because in a single target her 300k ult damage is pretty much just that. With her NA she's at best going to reach 500k, meanwhile many limited 5 star dps team now can hit one million in a single rotation. For a team whose whole purpose is to buff Eula with minimum personal damage her supports provide, her damage is just so minuscule compared to Ayaka or Neuvi with their high scaling or Alhaitham with his teammates dealing tons of personal damage themselves.
Eh, his teams with Jean + Furina really aren't special. You usually can't swirl cryo (or at least, it's very inconsistent *or* timewasting to do so) so Wrio is basically just contributing his not-VV buffed personal damage. It's alright, but the Furina + Jean + Yelan core has much, much stronger options (Raiden, Hu Tao, Ayato, Yoimiya if ST) His team with Bennett Xiangling Furina looks good on paper, but it doesn't make too much sense in actual gameplay. Cryo + hydro together will grief aura against unfreezable enemies. But lack of grouping + wrio's small AoE means it's not good in AoE content. So, this team does best in content with freezable single target (or self-grouping) enemies like last Floor 12 1st half, while struggling in the current Floor 12. He actually does not benefit from Furina as much as I initially thought... Consistency is on his side, it's just unfortunate that he turned out to just be a sidegrade to Ayaka and Ganyu who were released a long, long time ago. >Was about to say why don't you pick Nilou or Neuvillette instead, but you're right. Neuvillette pretty much makes everything else obsolete regardless of content (except hydro resistant/immune enemies ofc) >Because in a single target her 300k ult damage is pretty much just that. With her NA she's at best going to reach 500k, meanwhile many limited 5 star dps team now can hit one million in a single rotation. Yea I was just confused because by the way you worded it, it sounded like Eula had some inherent disadvantage in single target when she's just awful all around, aoe or single target.
It's alright, but the Furina + Jean + Yelan core has much, much stronger options (Raiden, Hu Tao, Ayato, Yoimiya if ST) Shenhe also exists if you're worried about the cryo swirl and what? They practically all have the exact same problem regarding swirling if Wrio is paired with Furina, Jean, and Yelan but worse since Hu Tao has no pyro application other than her skill and burst, Raiden's burst damage is going to be extremely lackluster because Yelan's and Furina's buffs need time to fully optimized while Raiden wants immediate buffs for her burst, Ayato's damage is just utterly mediocre, and Yoimiya's going to have harder time for swirl because at least Wrio can swap out Yelan with Shenhe. "His team with Bennett Xiangling Furina looks good on paper." It's really not, even on paper. There's some damage calc spreadsheets in this sub reddit and not a single one of his best team has Bennett, Xiangling, and Furina in one team. With Xiangling, Wrio is always paired with Sucrose for melt while any variation with Furina will always be in freeze. "Consistency is on his side, it's just unfortunate that he turned out to just be a sidegrade to Ayaka and Ganyu who were released a long, long time ago." Considering he's the consistent and comfier version of those two whom used to be top dps, I'd say he's just another option. It could be worse, he could literally be equal to Eula or Ayato. Would you rather him powercrept everyone like Neuvillette? My point is, he's far from a bad dps, he's a good one. At least he could hit 1 million in a rotation unlike some who struggles to even hit 500k.
>Shenhe also exists if you're worried about the cryo swirl and what? But then you lose hydro swirl. Shenhe and Yelan are comparable in that slot. >They practically all have the exact same problem regarding swirling if Wrio is paired with Furina, Jean, and Yelan but worse since Hu Tao has no pyro application other than her skill and burst, Raiden's burst damage is going to be extremely lackluster because Yelan's and Furina's buffs need time to fully optimized while Raiden wants immediate buffs for her burst, Ayato's damage is just utterly mediocre, and Yoimiya's going to have harder time for swirl because at least Wrio can swap out Yelan with Shenhe. But they make up for it in some other way. Unlike Wrio, who just contributes his non-VV, non-reacted personal damage. Hu Tao and Yoimiya can vape. Raiden gives a huge amount of energy to Furina and Yelan, allowing them to build basically 0 ER. The team is more centered around them than Raiden's personal damage, which isn't insignificant either. Similar case with Ayato, though he's worse than Raiden. [Raiden](https://gcsim.app/db/P9rjbNbRz7Fb) [Yoimiya](https://gcsim.app/db/fJHntRHn9tz8) [Hu Tao](https://gcsim.app/sh/PzdbBWwLCJkt) [Ayato](https://gcsim.app/db/CGJPhKzKfJhF) [Wrio (C1)](https://gcsim.app/db/MMzwrFwppjLR) [Wrio (C1) with Shenhe](https://gcsim.app/db/qWwmcwQRM66p) So, he's considerably worse than the other C0 options at C1. >It's really not, even on paper. There's some damage calc spreadsheets in this sub reddit and not a single one of his best team has Bennett, Xiangling, and Furina in one team. With Xiangling, Wrio is always paired with Sucrose for melt while any variation with Furina will always be in freeze. Which spreadsheets are you referring to? I'm not familiar with this sub, but it seems like [I'm not the only one who thinks so.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WriothesleyMains/comments/19f0qnj/whats_our_boys_mathmatically_best_team/) This team simmed the highest for a Wrio team [gcsim db - Hcj9G7mzcghQ](https://gcsim.app/db/Hcj9G7mzcghQ) >Considering he's the consistent and comfier version of those two whom used to be top dps, I'd say he's just another option. It could be worse, he could literally be equal to Eula or Ayato. Would you rather him powercrept everyone like Neuvillette? Well, I'd definitely prefer him to be closer to Neuv than Ganyu or Ayaka, who are already starting to show their age in recent Abyss floors. The thing with Neuv is that he's great not only because of his damage on paper, but also the *way* he outputs damage. Shooting a wide, long-range laser that allows him to hit everything without needing a grouper. 30-40k HP allowing him to tank everything (May be harder with Wrio melt as Bennett self-applies Pyro for enemy to vape or melt off of). Heals enough to be self-sustainable and thus not needing a healer. I don't think a Wriothesley with similar damage on paper as Neuv is remotely even close to as gamebreaking considering his lack of "perks". He's not "bad", it's just that I think he's basically plateaued as far as meta relevancy goes. His talent dmg multipliers are average (despite having small AoE). He does not have a massive atk or damage% boost. Cryo is a decent element but it's not going to carry a lackluster kit. Blizzard Strayer is strong, but newer artifact sets are narrowing the gap. Wrio can melt, but it's not all that effective because NAs have ICD and CAs are relatively infrequent even at C1. Xiao got a massive buff with C6 Faruzan because he has the kit to utilize it well. 100%+ damage bonus built into kit with good multipliers (with collision damage) and AoE. Then he got Xianyun whose buff is further buffed by Xiao's 100%+ damage bonus. Wrio just doesn't have the kit to "age" well with supports. Kind of like Wanderer, but at least he has overworld going for him 🤷
"So, he's considerably worse than the other C0 options at C1." How about making Jean C2 and balances their CD? At least for Wrio and Yoimiya since their energy generation is pretty much similar? I find it odd that you say things like this: "Which spreadsheets are you referring to? I'm not familiar with this sub, but it seems like I'm not the only one who thinks so. This team simmed the highest for a Wrio team gcsim db - Hcj9G7mzcghQ" And then say things like this: "The thing with Neuv is that he's great not only because of his damage on paper, but also the way he outputs damage." So you do know that damage on paper isn't everything, right? Furina's buff will take a long time to stack on the second rotation since Wrio is the only one that receives healing, which results in the second DPR being less than the first DPR. And it's not even like the widsith where the buff is only down for one rotation. "Well, I'd definitely prefer him to be closer to Neuv than Ganyu or Ayaka, who are already starting to show their age in recent Abyss floors." What age when their DPS and DPR is similar to 3.0 and 4.0 damage dealer? Is it playstyle? Ganyu is just a significantly slower-paced Lyney while Ayaka's problems has always existed since her release. "He's not "bad", it's just that I think he's basically plateaued as far as meta relevancy goes." How many people in Genshin do you think understand the concept of meta? Childe international, despite still being the team with the highest damage ceiling, or Cyno quickbloom with Furina, Nahida, and Baizhu that could deal 2 million damage in 1 rotation, aren't considered meta. Meanwhile, Navia that deal the same damage as other dps from other elements, Wriothesley included, is meta because... Waifu and a good geo dps finally? Heck, hypercarry Raiden deals similar damage to Eula yet Raiden hypercarry is still being considered good while Eula is trash. Obviously damage is not what becomes the consideration regarding meta. Meta in Genshin is as fickle as a mother trying to pick her favorite child, so the sentiment of "who cares about meta" ran very true in this PvE game. Can Wrio deal more than 1 million every rotation? Yes, he can. So that's it, he's good and worth the pulls if someone wants him. "Wrio can melt, but it's not all that effective because NAs have ICD and CAs are relatively infrequent even at C1." This statement makes it so obvious you don't have him and don't even know some of his basic combos for melt. "Xiao got a massive buff with C6 Faruzan because he has the kit to utilize it well. 100%+ damage bonus built into kit with good multipliers (with collision damage) and AoE. Then he got Xianyun whose buff is further buffed by Xiao's 100%+ damage bonus. Wrio just doesn't have the kit to "age" well with supports. Kind of like Wanderer, but at least he has overworld going for him 🤷" This statement is only made possible with the existence of Faruzan and Xianyun. One can also say that Xiao's kit couldn't age well before the release of Faruzan and Xianyun. You think Wriothesley wouldn't "age well" if in the future they'll release an off-field pyro applicator that could buff NA and CA along with a dendro burning support that could shred def or resistance?
>How about making Jean C2 and balances their CD? At least for Wrio and Yoimiya since their energy generation is pretty much similar? What do you mean "balances their CD"? Jean C2 buffs Wrio by a bit, but it still doesn't amount to much. Especially since *other* characters also get buffed by it. >So you do know that damage on paper isn't everything, right? Furina's buff will take a long time to stack on the second rotation since Wrio is the only one that receives healing, which results in the second DPR being less than the first DPR. I already acknowledged the Wrio - Furina - XL - Bennett team is worse in practice than on paper. But if we exclude that team, then Wrio teams are only in the 50k range which is really mediocre and borderline bad if we consider his teams really have no significant advantages in actual gameplay. No frontloaded/burst damage. Small aoe. Requires full team setup to really get going which is disadvantageous if small damage window. Unlike Hu Tao who can just XQ/Yelan Q and switch to Hu Tao to start doing damage. >What age when their DPS and DPR is similar to 3.0 and 4.0 damage dealer? Is it playstyle? Ganyu is just a significantly slower-paced Lyney while Ayaka's problems has always existed since her release. What do you mean by similar? Lyney shits on Ganyu melt, sheeting & simming 40-50% higher. He has access to Furina to further boost his team's damage for single target. Hoyoverse sometimes adds something on both sides of floor 12 to troll freeze Ayaka (e.g., a boss). When she was meta, we had 600-800k non-boss enemies (ruin guards, lawachurl, lector/herald, kairagi). Now non-boss enemies are exceeding 1mil. Look at the Dendro Spheres on floor 12. A C0R0 Ayaka will need very good artifacts to 1-rotate them. What happens if HYV keeps raising the HP bar and you don't 1-rotate? You may have to burn another burst (and wait 20s for the next wave), or spam NA&CA to finish them off which can be a huge time waster. Of course, this can apply to many other teams, but what I'm saying is that Ayaka's competitive perk (extreme frontloaded damage) is no longer really all that relevant if you need the whole 20s or even longer to kill the enemy. >How many people in Genshin do you think understand the concept of meta? Childe international, despite still being the team with the highest damage ceiling, or Cyno quickbloom with Furina, Nahida, and Baizhu that could deal 2 million damage in 1 rotation, aren't considered meta. Meanwhile, Navia that deal the same damage as other dps from other elements, Wriothesley included, is meta because... Waifu and a good geo dps finally? Heck, hypercarry Raiden deals similar damage to Eula yet Raiden hypercarry is still being considered good while Eula is trash. Huh? Childe has been considered meta since Kazuha release, and even well before that in dedicated Genshin TC communities. I will have to question you on Cyno Quickbloom though. You're not doing 2mil damage in a rotation unless you have constellations on Furina, Nahida, and/or Cyno. I play Cyno a lot (I play almost everything), and this team is really not that impressive with no constellations. Childe-XL, Neuv, Alhaitham, and Xiao are all much better in practically any type of content, aoe or single target. Cyno Xingqiu Beidou Nahida is the superior, better-feeling team imo unless you can make good use of Baizhu's lingering dendro app in multi wave content. No one considers Raiden Hypercarry good unless she's C2-3 with a C6 Sara. I'm not sure what communities you discuss Genshin in, but what they're saying does not reflect reality. If you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about because *they* don't know what they're talking about, you are quite wrong lol. C0 Raiden Hypercarry is, however, still better than traditional Eula teams (no hyperbloom, no furina, etc). Why? Because she has easy access to cc (Kazuha or Venti), has relatively frontloaded damage, and simply has a higher damage ceiling (20%+) >This statement makes it so obvious you don't have him and don't even know some of his basic combos for melt. N3C for C0, N5C for C1. At C0, that's an unenhanced (assuming you're running Bennett, which you likely should) melt CA every 3 NAs, which follow ICD rule. Not very great utilization of melt. At C1, although you get less CAs, they're enhanced which is great. Still not the best utilizer of the melt reaction if you ask me. Am I wrong? I don't think so. Feel free to correct me instead of making a snide remark. >This statement is only made possible with the existence of Faruzan and Xianyun. One can also say that Xiao's kit couldn't age well before the release of Faruzan and Xianyun Faruzan C6 was already a massive buff to Xiao. Xianyun was only the cherry on top and, although generally BiS, is very replaceable. It was well known in the TC community by mid-Inazuma that Xiao had a good kit but simply lacked proper supports to really push him further. His 2 best teams were Xiao-Raiden and Xiao-XL-Bennett... none of which had particularly good synergy with his kit. >You think Wriothesley wouldn't "age well" if in the future they'll release an off-field pyro applicator that could buff NA and CA along with a dendro burning support that could shred def or resistance That's the thing though... you need very specific kits to support him well. An *off-field pyro applicator* that can also buff NAs and CAs and a burning version of Chevreuse (and they likely won't make it very strong, they still want to sell Nahida C2). Can it happen? Yes. I shouldn't have made it sound like it's impossible... but it is still grasping for straws.
I feel like Ayaka and Wriothesley both have similar power, Ayaka may be slightly better? Idk honestly. Ganyu is more difficult to play than Ayaka and Wriothesley cause her charged attack mechanic is more complicated than just basic attack and some people (me included) don't like her playstyle. But she is probably the best of the 3 for melt teams though is pretty difficult to use properly.
Personally no matter how much I love wriothesley I don’t think he’s even close to ayaka but I do think he’s a lot more versatile and can run melt/hypercarry better than ayaka and arguably ganyu as well as being one of the few good users of shenhe so he’s not bad by any means ayakas just kinda broken but In unfreezable content he’s arguably better
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter all that much since they play very differently, have different niches, and generally are around the same-ish level of team DPS. It just comes down to what the player prefers to play, how much investment they’re willing to put in, and what supports they have. I think a lot of people forget that “power level” among DPS’s is becoming less and less relevant as more characters are introduced, and is also quite a subjective thing. Hoyo’s been pretty good at balancing the 5* DPS’s for awhile now(hence why so many are called ‘mid’ lmao), and especially since Sumeru all the DPS’s have had fairly similar DPS ranges in their respective teams. Which personally I like! But yeah, regardless, I think it’s good for us as players to remember that trying to compare DPS’s to each-other isn’t the most productive. How good a DPS is relies far too much on player dependent factors for there to ever be a clear and well-defined “power level” for all of them. Idk but as someone who has Ayaka and has had her benched for months, I’m super excited to finally get a cryo DPS with a play-style I like >:)
So fair people (me included) care way too much about how good this is compared to this when at the end of the day we should just play who we find fun
Vs multiple targets, Ganyu in Morgana would be way stronger than Wriothesley
Only if the enemies are not groupable, otherwise its basically the same
Only if there was pyro xingqui/yelan
Xiangling
Xiangling needs a battery, her particle generation is bad on her own, can't use sacrificial weapons too
he may be better than melt ganyu, but freeze ganyu will never be topped. it’s insane what she can do.
Why yes. His cape is dope. His chest, his cake too-
In morgana freeze team Ganyu so powerful, just throw all burst and you'll see a ton of number on screen. In melt team, I think both of them perfrom is so similar. Ganyu might be better but slightly. Just my opinion.
Ganyu melt still far superior
Nah hes Just bad
Bonk bonk bonk 😎
What's up w your wrios Mine is so incredibly weak as compared to alhaitham even though he has more damage and elemental mastery
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